#28 | Is ‘Just Love Them’ Really the Answer? One Father’s Raw Reflections on Parenting His LGBTQ+ Kids

Welcome to Just Breathe: Parenting Your LGBTQ Teen. My name is Heather Hester, and I am excited to be with you to transform the conversation around loving and raising LGBTQ teens. LGBTQ child, wherever you are on this journey right now in this moment in time, you are not alone. So today I am celebrating my one-year anniversary of launching Just Breathe as a podcast, and I thought it would be really fun and really interesting for everyone to have Steve on as my guest. Steve and I have talked about this for quite some time, him being able to share our story from his point of view, just knowing that it would be so helpful to so many dads who are out there listening and just everyone out there listening, hearing it from, you know, another point of view and just the way he was affected, the way that he saw things. So I'm really, really happy that we have finally been able to sit down together and put this together and be able to share this with all of you. So thank you, Darling, for being here today. We're squished into my office together, which is highly entertaining to begin with. So he's— and I've told him he can't play with his pen or squeak his chair, so he's already been laughing at me, so you have to bear with us here. Um, but thank you for being here.

Thank you for having me. Um, I can't believe it took a year for me to be able to get at least a couple of seconds of time on the podcast, but I won't take that personally. But seriously, I do— I have thought for a while that it would be nice. I've listened to most of your episodes and I think it would be nice for dads to have a perspective. I don't know how many dads are listening right off the bat, but if their spouses want to point this one out specifically, at least there might be some sort of connection for the dads out there.

Well, thank you. I appreciate it. And I think— I know everybody else will appreciate it too. And I'm just I'm so glad we've finally been able to make this happen. And just so you all know, since he's already started out by being funny, he— Steve is definitely the, the funny one out of the two of us. He also likes being in the spotlight, so the fact that I've had the mic for a full year and he has not been on it is a very, very big deal. But anyway, he— this will be exciting. I'm so excited to have him share because obviously we've been through all of this together, but his perspective is just quite beautiful and extraordinary, and I know you'll enjoy it. So we will go ahead and get started here and start with how did you feel and what was your initial reaction when Connor first came out to us?

Well, first, as a disclaimer, at some point during this Q&A, there's a decent chance I'm going to get pregnant pause, choked up. Um, my way of handling all of this is usually through comedy, sarcasm, dry humor, but when I am specifically speaking of these topics and reliving these topics, I do get choked up. And that would be why you're hearing these odd pauses in the audio so far, because that is what— it's just the way I am. Um, so I do apologize in advance because Heather's not going to be able to edit all of those out. So there you go. So how did I feel? Initial reaction? Well, I think as Heather Hester, I was completely surprised, complete disbelief, because we never had any clue that Connor was gay. There were no signs that that we should have caught, or there were no, you know, hints that he made or anything like that. So, but although we were completely blindsided by the, um, by the news, it didn't— we didn't lose stride over the fact of, oh my God, what do we do now? It was okay, this is a curveball, but We love you dearly and we want to know how we can help you and just where do we go from here type of thing. And as I've kidded with Heather in the past, initially I said this isn't possible because for multitude of reasons, but most important, he has zero fashion sense.

And he would be so horrified to hear you say that.

At the time. I mean, he's really developed. Developed his own fashion. But at the time, it was a little joke between us. So there you go.

It is actually very true that that very night when I was on the phone with my mom and you were standing there trying to discern what was going on, and I'm giving you snippets of it, and that was literally one of the first things you said, like, "This can't be possible." We did try to laugh as much as we cry. Laughter has been, I think, a huge— one of the biggest things that has helped us get through a lot of this. And all of us, all, not just Steve or me, but all 6 of us. So I've talked a lot in my different episodes about how I initially felt about feeling overwhelmed and alone when it came to finding support and information. How did you feel in those, in those first initial months about that?

Um, I was very frustrated with the lack of any helpful resources, especially for parents of teens. Um, there, there were many books, but not necessarily focused on the parents and how to help them help their child. I do know there is PFLAG, and we did go to one of those meetings and didn't really feel the connection or the— I'm sure it's a great resource, but it just didn't strike a chord with me. So quite honestly, something like your podcast, your website would have been perfect for me, especially because, um, I wasn't in a place where I wanted to open up to people and ask for their help. So having something like Just Breathe, I wouldn't have had to ask for help. I would have been getting your perspective, um, the Connor interviews, um, all of the different authors that you've interviewed and experts that you've interviewed. Um, that's the kind of resource that I wish were out there 3 and 4 years ago when we we're going through all of this.

Thank you. Well, obviously, you know, that's why, that's why I do this. But I, I, there's something really important that I want. I think it's an important takeaway from this for everyone listening, because as I sit here and I'm, I'm listening to you and I'm watching you, and it breaks my heart every time to see how moved you are. And, you know, this really does strike a very deep chord with you. And I, I think this is so important to point out because I think that when our kids come out, regardless of how they come out, you know, the majority of us feel that it's so important to be like, okay, we've got this, we're going, it's good. We're happy, we're fine. And you know, in so many cases, parents knew already or had a feeling already, so it's not that much of a shock, right? But there is, I think, for everyone, the movie reel change, right? Which I've talked about so many times, and this is an example of it where It's okay to acknowledge that the movie reel has changed. It's okay to mourn it. It is okay to be sad. Being sad that it has changed, being frustrated and having all of these emotions that are other than "I'm so excited," it's not a bad thing. This is actually very, very good and very healthy. So as I sit here and watch Steve and listen to him. And I think this is really important for everybody to hear because this is a good and healthy expression. And especially knowing, you know, we're 4 years into this and you all have heard from Connor and, you know, we're all pretty open about how all of this has worked. So anyway, I just wanted to add that in there really quickly.

So wait, one other thing.

Sure.

The other reason why this podcast is so great for somebody like me, you interview authors and get all of the great points from the book, and I don't have to read the book. So I think that's a plus.

Steve is not a reader. Yeah. Steve is a big— this is like Audible for you.

Yes.

Yeah. Like the Cliff Notes version of Audible.

Yes.

Yes. Um, yes. Oh my goodness. Well, I'm glad I can provide that service. So anyway, in the months that followed, um, Connor coming out, kind of in that the spring, the summer, into the fall, what were your thoughts and observations of how Connor was working through his coming out process?

Um, at the time, I think like you, I was I was led to believe that things were going very well. Uh, he told a few friends, that went well. He seemed to be handling everything well with the mix of school, and basically just— I thought everything was going as well as could be expected. I would ask an occasional question and he would give a reassuring answer, and I foolishly would think that answer was perfect. Now everything is going just like I hoped. Unbeknownst to both of us, of course, Connor was very skilled at saying what he thought we wanted to hear and then covering up a whole plethora of risky, dangerous, unhealthy things that he was pursuing at the time. Let's see, and also I had this feeling that he was pushing me away a bit, and I just assumed that was some sort of son-father dynamic where, oh, my father knows I'm gay now, so he's probably not going to want to, you know, hang out with me or bond with me. And I thought that's what it was because I I did try to connect and he would kind of politely, you know, shoot me down but say everything's fine, don't worry type of thing.

I'm going to jump in really quick there too because I think the other piece of that is that, you know, Connor was 16, 16, 17 at, you know, at these early, these early stages. And that is like the pinnacle of the time when typical teenager or teenage development is kind of creating that space between the, the teen and the parent. They're getting ready to, you know, spread their wings and fly, right? So there was also that component where we were like, well, it could be that too. Um, so there were a lot of tiny little pieces that, you know, did lend them— lend to what was going on. Go ahead. Sorry.

Oh, um, let's see. In my mind, he was just pushing me away because he thought it was a little awkward or whatever. What I didn't realize was it was more or less just giving him the room to be able to do some of the stuff he was doing without us being aware.

Did you ever have a moment or a time where, like, your intuition started kicking in? Like, this just doesn't feel right. Like I've talked about that here and there.

You definitely had a much better intuition for that, um, because you spent so much time, so much more time talking with him in great depth. Um, and like I said, it was with me, it was much more at the time. Thankfully, things have come full circle and I'm able to have nice conversations, long meaningful conversations with him now, but at the time, even if I tried or when I tried to come up with a couple of things like, "Hey, this sounds like a good topic to talk to Connor about," he really wouldn't spend much time answering it, wanting to talk about it. So I didn't get the same type of intuition you got that there was trouble brewing, that's for sure.

Oh, that was something else. I know the night that I finally looked at Connor's phone, you know, after many weeks of my intuition telling me something was wrong, that night is completely etched in my memory and it will be, you know, forever and ever. What is your memory of that night and then the month that followed it?

I would say I was sick to my stomach when you first came down and told me what you had discovered. I was in absolute shock, 10 times more shocked than when he first came out to us. I had a I felt fury for the people who were taking advantage of Connor, and then also utter sadness and despair for him, and for that it had spiraled so far out of control. That was that night. And then the following month, at least at the beginning, a lot of my mindset was wanting revenge against the people that took advantage of him, to punish them, constantly worrying about him, frustration over the fact that Connor He was— that was a stage when he— the only thing he knew about the gay community was what he had learned online. Mm-hmm. And that he felt he knew everything that there was to the gay community because of these seedy people that manipulated a teenager. I would say that was— that was— that month was just wanting him to understand that there was a whole nother wonderful world out there that he just wasn't giving a chance to, and instead bogging down with this bad stuff, right?

And I wonder too, I remember I felt like we were scrambling so much to really kind of figure out where his lies stopped and the truth began so we could really figure out what he, what he needed, um, where, you know, how we could help him. Um, and, and certainly again, you know, he, he didn't necessarily want help initially. Um, he was understandably angry. I just remember, you know, feeling That whole month, like, everything was just unraveling. And I was working really hard to like, keep it from completely falling apart. And it was like, we just kept learning new information and, okay, what do we do with this? And the whole, you know, scramble to what kind of help does he need? And then, you know, meeting with an ed consultant and oh my gosh, he has to go away. And Oh, this is, this is how, you know, realizing how incredibly dangerous as we learned more and more. It was just so much information. Is that just me?

Yeah, it was, it was difficult to try to— I mean, we had 3 other kids, my own company, and trying to keep everything sort of together. And the whole time, like you said, Connor never, at least up until the time when we finally went to Newport, Connor never felt like he even needed any of our help with any of that. He thought he had it all under control and he knew what he was doing and we were overreacting.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I just wish there were some resource for teenagers that they would rely on. I mean, because I do remember you tried to connect him with one of his old grammar school teachers that was out as being gay, and Connor thought he was the greatest teacher way back when, so this would be wonderful. But he didn't want the help of people in the know.

Like positive influences, and I think that's the biggest thing, he didn't want it. And he's, he's talked about that a lot too, about how once he realized that, you know, there is this big, beautiful world out there, right? That he was in the darkest corner, the, you know, the underbelly at this point of the gay community, but also, you know, people and resources, and he didn't want any of it. He didn't want therapy. He didn't, you know, he knew how to game that. He knew how to game everything. So it was a really tough spot to be in.

The first person in the, in the gay community that he actually listened to as a good resource was Daniel at Montfort. Mm-hmm. That's when he finally opened his eyes to the fact that there is another world of of the gay community that's actually nice and caring and wonderful. But that was how many— that was a year into the— over a year roller coaster ride. Yeah.

And I think that was all part of the, like, his self-loathing. You know, he had such intense self-loathing and was so angry that he didn't feel like he deserved anything good for quite some time. So you had the unenviable and heart-wrenching experience of flying with Connor out to California to Newport Academy and dropping him off there. I know this is a really hard question for you, but I think it's really important to share with everyone because That was horrible.

Yeah, it was nerve-wracking. Very little sleep the few days before and then during. Always on edge with worry. What if he tries to sneak off? Even, for instance, when he would go to the washroom at the airport or at the restaurant we were at, like If it took too long, a little bit of panic would jump in, and then he would appear, and I'd be like, I was such— it was so foolish of me to worry. I mean, where was he gonna go, climb out a window or whatever? But other than those moments It is odd to say, but both that traveling to California and even traveling to Montford, um, 2 months later or whatever, those were actually also— we had a lot of laughs because at least on the way to Newport, Connor was actually agreeable to going. So he had kind of relaxed. He didn't need to do a whole cover and a whole facade about how he felt or whatever. And so the real Connor came out and we were able to enjoy— like, he's hysterical with observational humor. So when we were at the airport or at the hotel, just him pointing out something and just laughing a lot of the time. Dropping him off, doing the tour of the house, although it was a nice facility, it was still torture because he knew nobody there. You could see the nervousness and the fact that this is our— was he 16 or 17 then?

17.

Our 17-year-old just being dropped off with a bunch of strangers. Even though he was 17 and in his mind, I guarantee you, and many of your 17-year-olds, I guarantee you, think they are just on the cusp of being the most mature adult possible. He was still this little boy who was incredibly scared and also who was trying to be incredibly strong, um, for my benefit. Then of course going back to the hotel, I probably sawed for, for hours. That was even though I called home, talked to Heather Hester Hester, everything, you know, told her the update on the house and everything. Um, when I hung up, I just remember feeling so incredibly alone. And then as far as whether it was the right decision or when I knew it was the right decision, I can't say that day I felt like it, like it was. Um, but when we first talked with the therapy team there, that's when I really got the feeling that these people get it, unlike so many of the therapists back here in in our home area, they won't necessarily let Connor work the system. Um, and they'd be able to get through to see the real Connor, and that was when I realized this was the right decision.

Good job. I know that was really hard. I'm really sorry.

You can edit all that out, right?

No, I mean, I can, but— And just building on that just a little bit, because I think we've really talked about it to a decent degree, but Connor was first in Newport for 2 months and then at Montford Hall in North Carolina, in Asheville, for 5. And There's so much that happened and you discussed bits and pieces of it, but overall, what were those months like for you?

So many ups and downs. Our visits, especially our visits to Newport, to beautiful Newport Beach, California, which isn't a tough place to visit, um, those were I mean, other than a little edginess at times from Connor, those were actually very helpful. It was obviously great to see him, but also I felt like I did learn some important lessons in their program. I feel like I've definitely— and this is a huge pointer for any parents, more specifically dads— I've learned and I can't say I'm perfect at it, but validating. I quite honestly knew, or I had zero experience of validating prior to any of this. I always try to be very positive. I try to be very optimistic. So if somebody in the past, if somebody, whether it's Connor or Heather or any of my family, if they would come to me, they've had a terrible day, something bad happened, I would always, instead of saying, "I understand how you're feeling," and "That must be terrible," or whatever, I would be like, "Hey, but what about, what about this one, like, little silver lining?" That is a huge lesson to learn with any of your kids, is that If they take the effort to come to you and tell you anything serious, anything sad or whatever, validating their feelings is the most important thing. And then you can move on to how can we help or how can we, you know, move out from this mindset. But I guarantee the first thing they want to hear is I understand, I get it, or whatever. So that's one of those things that came from the first couple of months. Behind the scenes, it was an absolute roller coaster because of insurance. It was literally like every day a call or an email about that process. Were they going to allow him to stay as long as needed? Were they going to pull the plug on all of the financial backing for it, um, because for those of you who have not experienced one of these programs, um, they are exorbitantly expensive. With that said, of course, most of them are worth everything, um, but, uh, there was a lot of ups and downs with that. And then I would say the only other The thing I recall distinctly from that period was it was probably the first time that I was able to actually sleep through the night.

Oh my gosh.

Because I knew he was safe.

Yes.

Whereas for how many months on end we never—

We didn't sleep for months.

Yeah, so.

You are absolutely right. I've never talked about that, but that is so true. Reminding me, reminding— we did finally sleep. That was a really great thing on top of everything else. We were so sleep deprived. Oh my goodness. Holy cow. I'm sure you all have, have gotten a very a good sense of Steve's personality. And actually, I will tell you that you are quite lucky and fortunate to be able to see this side of Steve, because this is not a side that everybody gets to see. This is something that, you know, like he said, I think earlier in the episode, he is funny and He does handle everything with humor and sarcasm. And I know I've alluded so many times the fact that there's so much laughing in this house. And a big reason of that is because of Steve. And Connor and Isabel have both inherited his funny, dry, witty sense of humor. So the fact that you're able to witness this side of him, which is equally as beautiful, and I feel very lucky that he has allowed himself to open up and to feel all of these things. I'm just really, really grateful. So as I am a verbal processor, and I think this is obviously very stereotypical, but women tend to be verbal processors, right? So we talk, talk, talk, talk, talk until we figure things out. Was it hard to have me verbally processing all the time while you were also trying to process all of this?

I honestly don't recall there being a time when I felt to myself or thought to myself, "Oh no, not again. She wants to talk about it again." Because honestly, it was the most important thing in the world for us and for our family. So no, I never felt like, you verbally tried to go through it too often. I would say, you know, it was— if you were bringing it up, there was a chance there was also some new information I wasn't aware of too, so that was helpful.

So I vividly remember our ed consultant telling me that crises like ours destroy marriages. I remember where I was standing in our house when she told me that, because it was so rattling to me, but our marriage actually became stronger, I think. This would be an awkward time for you to say otherwise.

You can edit that out too, I guess, depending on my response.

Yes. Why do you think it became stronger?

First of all, let's get rid of the elephant in the room. I agree our marriage became stronger. We already had a great marriage, um, and this bond that we had over all of this, um, made it stronger. And I believe honestly it was because we were on the same page with everything, how we felt about everything, how we wanted to respond to everything. It just made us work together even more and rely on each other. For more support and more love. I could see if we didn't agree, like if I pushed back on any of the topics, if I had this approach where, like, I don't know the terminology, but like a meathead guy that's like, "Oh, we're not going to do that with our kid," or whatever, then I could see where marriages would have a a damaged result if both spouses weren't on the same page, because this is an emotional, incredibly emotional time for us. And if we weren't already, already a strong marriage to begin with, but then also just on the same page with everything, it could have gone south for sure. And even like especially in the Newport days, we even were able to, because the scheduling of the parent weekends, we had one whole night to ourselves. So before we would fly back the next day, so we actually made those into nice little getaways with just us because my family was watching our kids. So you were secure with that they were okay and that gave us a little free time to actually have a nice dinner, walk the beach, do whatever.

So yes, so true. Do you think that therapy played a role in any of that?

Can we say her name? Yes, with Kate. Yes, we can say her name as long as I don't give her last name. Uh, for Kate, who handled I would say it was more couples therapy than family therapy, but yes, I believe Kate was helpful because if there ever were times where one or one of us didn't necessarily see eye to eye on this, Kate was a very good help in bridging the gap and for some perspective. Like if one of us felt a certain way, she was good at letting the— letting that person at least keep an open mind about what the other person was thinking or whatever. So I think that was very helpful. And again, just being on a united front. I mean, we could have gone to, you know, family therapy, couples therapy, whatever, and it could have been useless if we weren't already United in our goals and our beliefs about Connor and our dedication.

I think that's a very valid and important point. I just thought I would bring that up because, you know, over time, of course, I had already been seeing Maureen for a number of years, and then we started seeing Kate, um, a month or two after Connor came out. And then you started seeing your therapist about a, a year later. So it's super helpful just for— I think all these pieces kind of worked together and being, being able to work through things and become educated and find support and find information. So at what point if any. Were you able to relax and just go with the flow, or have you been able to relax?

Wow. Um, I would say yes, I'm, you know, definitely capable or more prone to be relaxed 4 years in. When Connor was at Newport, and even when he was at Montford, even though there were some emotional ups and downs in both processes. I was able to relax more so, again, as I said earlier, because he was safe and hopefully because he was learning, especially when he— both places I felt like he was learning some important life lessons. At Newport, I think he was learning more about himself, and then at Montfort, I believe he He learned a ton from Daniel about the fact that there is a good, healthy gay community out there, and he can have fun participating in that. And so that helped me relax. And then, you know, going there and visiting him every time was also nice. So I learned to go with the flow pretty well with that during those days. Now I am more inclined to be relaxed with Connor, or because Connor is— seems like he has turned the corner. That doesn't mean I have this idea that there's not going to be any more bumps in the road or any other issues that we have to be incredibly worried about. But he seems to be, as you've mentioned, so much more comfortable with himself, so much more in love with who he is, that he feels more comfortable being honest with us. And even when that honesty is something he knows we don't necessarily want to hear, he's willing to be honest. And that's all I can ask. Right. If he has a bad day, if he does something that he regrets, rather than just covering it up, actually bringing it to us and telling us, you know, "I'm frustrated with myself because of this," and, or, "I'm worried about something." And he wasn't doing that during the roller coaster ride of the first 2 years, 3 years.

So, yeah, it's very, very true. We have a family group chat since Connor's in New York, and, um, we all either have things that we want to share on a weekly basis, and so it's an awesome place for everybody to kind of chime in, and there's very entertaining banter that goes back and forth. But of course, since right now is the age of COVID Connor has only one class that's in person, and he's Currently his dorm is in Manhattan and his in-person class is in Brooklyn. So this was about a month ago and he was texting in the group chat about how he's so frustrated. He took the train to Brooklyn, all these things.

The class got canceled.

Yeah, the class got canceled. Something else happened and everybody's chiming in on the group chat. Oh, well, go get a coffee. Well, stop by and see a friend. Well, do this. He finally says, I just need for you guys to validate my bad experience. And we were, I mean, laughing so hard because this is just part of this. And the fact that he can verbalize that, and not only has he learned how to really verbalize his needs, and like Steve said, we've learned how to do this so much better and really pay attention. But because of all of this, Isabel and Grace and Rowan have learned as well. So they're so much more aware of, you know, communicating, you know, with us, with each other, and not being afraid to be honest about what's going on, which I think is a really huge takeaway for, you know, everybody, all 6 of us. So when you think about these past 4 years. This is a wacky question that I've come up with here for you, but what kind of visual would you use to describe the past 4 years of our life, our lives?

Um, okay, okay, uh, this might take a little bit for you to get the visual, so bear with me, but Also, being a Miami Hurricane myself, I like this analogy. Um, it's like living on a Caribbean island and it's hurricane season all year long. So there's the calm before the storm when everything seems okay, but then slowly another storm develops and it's coming straight towards your island. And it's overwhelming. Then you spend time cleaning it up, picking up the pieces after the storm, and then the next cycle starts again. That's kind of the way it's— it's as though you lived in the Caribbean island only during hurricane season.

I think that that's very— that's a good visual. Yes, that is for sure how it felt and being on all the time and so hypersensitive and hyper alert and when you were talking about being, you know, worried, you know, and Connor would go up, goodness, when you were at the airport taking him to Newport, going to the bathroom, you know, and being worried. There are still times where things happen that I know he's in a far different place and he's doing so well, but he'll say something or do something and I am still triggered. Um, when, you know, when I am outside, I still walk over to look at his bedroom window because I am so scarred. So I think that's a good one. I like it. So I just want to wrap up today with, um general words of advice question. You know, we— you and I have grown a lot as parents together and as people individually. Can you share a few of the biggest areas of growth that you see, and what advice or words of wisdom or comfort can you share?

There's 3 things that I wanted to give as words of wisdom or as advice more to the dads out there. Top of the list is find a therapist. Never think that you're strong enough that you don't need extra help or support. Heather Hester, And others, including Kate, kept telling me that it would help. I never felt it was necessary. I didn't like the idea of sharing my feelings with a stranger. I felt like I was doing just fine. And like I said, especially for the dads who are listening, or if the moms want to make their husband listen to this section. Many of you feel— won't feel like opening up to your buddies about something sensitive like this, like your LGBTQ child. A therapist is a great outlet for you. I thought I was doing perfectly fine until I completely lost my temper and yelled at a an employee at my office over something very small, very minor. And that's actually when I realized I needed to take everybody's advice and find a therapist. I was very lucky to find the one— well, Heather found the one that I've been speaking with off and on for, for I don't know how long now.

2 and a half years.

Okay. If it's that long. Um, the key is also understanding— I see Ed, well, before COVID it was like once every 2 weeks or once every 3 weeks. It's not something that you need to be like, okay, it's Thursday, I've got to go to the therapist. If you're not comfortable with the concept, it's okay to just go when you feel you need a little extra help. Or something's been bothering you. During COVID I honestly have not talked to Ed as often, um, because I'm not a big fan of the Zoom call at this point. Um, but once things get hopefully back to normal, whenever, I'm sure I will go back and speak with Ed. And it's— and at this point, it's become At the beginning, it was literally 50 minutes of Connor conversation, but now it's, "Hey, how's Connor doing?" Quick touch upon that, and then any other stuff going on. It could be work, it could be my own family, my own parents, any of our other children, or on that rare occasion, it could be something with Heather Hester Hester. But, uh, But again, I think that if there's any takeaway, that is—

oh goodness—

other than learning to validate, that would be the second most important thing that I learned in this process, which is, you know, it's good to have a therapist, even if it's just once a month you speak to this person. So, number 2, a lot of times during the ups and downs of the coming out process and the journey that your child is going through, you're going to feel tired, mentally exhausted, just, you know, needing a break. And then at that very moment, something might come up that's— that kind of triggers to you that that's a suspicious statement, or that doesn't make sense, um, or the answer your child gave you to whatever question just seems like it's a bit off, as easy as it would be to just take that answer and be like, okay, and walk away because it's a lot more difficult to confront it. That's definitely a lesson that we learned the hard way. You're almost like wishful hopeful that what your child is telling you is the truth. But you do need to— like Heather said, with her intuition was, was eating away at her, and she finally looked at Connor's phone and found all of that disturbing information. You do need to be brave and trust your spidey sense for For those of you who are not Spider-Man fans, um, just trust your intuition that something's wrong and don't ignore it because that's when things get worse. It could even be your child, you know, reaching out, asking for some help but not having the courage to outright ask, so they kind of give a half-hearted lie to something. Just have the courage to bring it up. And in my case, I would bring it up to Heather Hester because I wasn't fully sure if I was thinking, you know, if it was coming out right or whatever. And then we would approach Connor about it. But that took a long time because, like I said, the easy way out is "Okay, good to hear," and head on out. The last bit of advice, at least when you're not in the middle of a pandemic, is if there are any opportunities for you to take your child on a trip, a long weekend, anything where you can have some good one-on-one time without a whole bunch of interruptions, jump at that. As Connor got older, his taste changed where we really didn't have much in common. And I would even like say to him, hey, let's try to do something. What do you want to do? And he would tell me like, oh, well, I really like EDM music. And I'm like, oh, okay, let's totally go see, let's go see a show. But So that never really worked out because I love sports. Connor couldn't care less about sports, so it was tough to find that connection. When I took him to Miami, the real Miami— for those of you who know of Miami of Ohio, I mean Miami Hurricanes— um, uh, we went for a campus visit and we stayed on the beach and we had a blast and it doesn't matter that we, you know, don't have a ton in common because we were able to just enjoy being outside, being at the pool, being at the beach, going out to dinner, and just laughing. So the same goes for both of our road trips dropping him off at NYU. Normally a 15-hour drive is not a highlight of anybody's life, but those were a lot of fun. We would stay overnight at a hotel somewhere along the way and go to dinner and just laugh a lot during the drive. So even if you think you don't have a ton in common, if there's an opportunity for you to do a little weekend getaway or whatever where it's just one-on-one time with you and your child, I suggest you jump at that opportunity. There you go. Nice.

Well done. Did a good job.

Thank you. And thanks for bearing with me with my occasional audio problems.

Not audio problems. Absolutely sweet. And just, you know, it's a lot of what restores faith and humanity and people having feelings and loving their kids. And thank you for sharing that with everybody.

It was my great pleasure. Um, if there are any dads out there listening, or again, moms that are listening that want the dad to listen, Feel free to email me. I'm happy to answer any questions. Heather will put me on the resource page. I've heard her talk about that before.

Steve will be in the show notes. Yes, I will put his email in the show notes for sure. Um, so, and, and he means that absolutely. He's not— he wouldn't say that just to be polite, um, because he doesn't typically like to answer his phone or emails, so He does mean that 100%. So thank you. Thank you for doing this with me, darling.

My pleasure.

It was super fun and just so excited that this is how we're celebrating the 1-year anniversary of Just Breathe. This is pretty awesome.

You finally got me on here.

I finally booked you on the show. It's exciting. And I just want to thank everyone out there so much for joining us today and for listening. Listening and just your reminder to just breathe, to take those few minutes every single day to focus on your breath and to calm and center yourself. Just like Steve said just now, you can email him, you can email me at any time with ideas, with feedback, with questions. Both his email and my email will be in the show notes. If you have a few moments, please, I would so appreciate either reviewing Just Breathe on your platform of choice and/or subscribing to my website to stay informed. It's chrysalismama.com and you can sign up for my monthly newsletter there as well as access tons of resources which I am constantly updating. Please join the Just Breathe Facebook community. It's a private Facebook page to chat with other parents and allies, and share this podcast with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone. Until next time.