#29 | From Struggle to Hope: One Transgender Woman’s Path

Welcome to Just Breathe: Parenting Your LGBTQ Teen. My name is Heather Hester, and I am excited to be with you to transform the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child. Wherever you are on this journey right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone. I am so thrilled to share today's guest with you. Rochelle Patterson is one of the principals of Chimera Capital Limited, which is a licensed financial services provider with specialties in investment management, custody, and corporate advisory. She is also the treasurer of Transgender Victoria. Born and raised on a farm outside of Wagga Wagga, New South Wales, Rochelle was a typical young boy who happened to dream of being a girl. Since they did not have the knowledge or vocabulary to understand their sense of not being right, they adapted to fit in. Electing to suppress their identity. Over time, the stresses of that suppression and their gender dysphoria began to significantly interfere with their life, resulting in increasing mental health challenges, including anxiety and depression. In December 2017, Rochelle transitioned and now lives full-time as a woman. She speaks about her life, gender dysphoria, and her experience living as a woman of transgender experience. She lives in Melbourne, Australia with her wife and two sons. Rochelle plays hockey in Hockey Victoria women's competition and is a member of the Pride Committee for the Carlton Football Club. I am so excited to learn from Rochelle today. So without further ado, welcome Rochelle, and thank you so much for being my guest.

Look, it's a real privilege to be here. I've listened to the past episodes, and I think there's some great material in what you've been sharing with the world. It's fantastic.

Thank you, thank you so much. That, that really, really means a lot. And, um, you know, as you know, we've, we've talked about this. I'd just basically want to get, you know, great information out there so people don't feel alone and so people have education available to them in an accessible way, right?

I think that's such a big issue that even today, when you go through these processes, you come— so often you're coming at it from a position that I'm the only one 'And I'm not going to fit in this wider community.' And that's if you're the person who's coming out. The loved ones around them are all told, 'Well, you must support,' but there's no support network for those loved ones. And it can't be successful unless everyone has a bit of a network to draw upon, because it's a challenge.

Absolutely.

It's a total—

it is. It is, it is. Yeah, you had said that the other day when we were talking, and I was like, oh my goodness, that's, that's so well said, um, because that's exactly true. And, and I think too, um, as the, you know, the loved ones and, and allies around, we often too feel like, you know, we want to support, we want to support, and then we're kind of scrambling behind the scenes to figure out how to do that, right?

And it's really important to look after your own emotional health and pick up this knowledge that you need to work out what the per— what the individual going through the experience actually requires. And often they don't know, often they don't know, and it's a strange, bewildering world for them where suddenly these doors that have always been closed are opened and they want to sample it all. And, you know, in the transgender community, we talk a lot about gender dysphoria and that feeling of not being connected with what's your body. But when you do connect with your correct gender identity, there is definitely this thing which is gender euphoria. And it is such an unbelievable feeling, and it can lead to you becoming dislocated from your wider world and where your reality really lies, because you're just going, I feel so right. I have not felt this ever before. And it is just pure euphoria, and it's amazing. And for the loved ones around you, they're going, but what about us? You've got to remember us.

Right.

You know, so in my case, you know, what I was telling my sister, and she had to talk to a therapist who, because she was going through her own stuff, and her therapist has just gone, oh my God, what are you going to do about that? Is that is— she goes, my sister said, and now on top of all of this, my 6-foot-3 brother is going to become my sister. And she's having— and so everyone— you spoke, you've spoken in your earlier podcasts about how people have the movie reel in their face, a movie reel in their head. And this is an example of where suddenly a plot twist comes through and not everyone can deal with it.

That is exactly right. Oh, I like that. It's a total plot twist.

So I think support for the people around the, the individual who's going through their own journey— they're on a big journey themselves.

That, that's absolutely true. And, and I think that that's something really important to recognize and for everyone to allow themselves, um, that I think, I think that for, you know, the support, we often feel a little bit guilty about being, you know, taking care of ourselves, right? Because, you know, especially, you know, so I speak very specifically Connor was in crisis. So how much, you know, there's not a lot of time for self-care when you're in crisis. Even though once I took, you know, kind of stepped back and took that time to take care of myself and take a breath, you know, I was able to be there for him in a much better way, right? And, and to really hear him and to just may help him make better decisions and make better decisions as his parent. Um, so I think you've hit on something really important there.

And, and I think that's a really important thing is with— in your situation is you are still the parent. You are the one who should have better decision-making ability, uh, right? And, um, it doesn't have to be about sexual orientation. Bad decisions are still bad decisions.

That's exactly right. That is exactly right. And I think that, that, um, it became one of those things where we were like, okay, how much of this is typical teenage behavior, right? And how much of this is acting out because He's angry or he, you know, has, you know, this self-loathing and he's— where is this coming from? And so it became this kind of weird place of this needs to be addressed and consequences have to be in place. And for absolute sure, I will tell you that, you know, there was a time when we were so— he was so fragile and we were so worried about his his depression and mental health, that we were really careful about how we handled consequences. And now looking back, I know that he knew that. Oh yeah. And so, right, so there's a certain— I say that out loud to everybody now because I've thought about this a lot, and I think, you know, there's no way of knowing in the moment, but it's certainly something to be aware of because our kids are smart, especially these teenagers. Their, their frontal lobe is not developed. We are their frontal lobe. That is our job, right? It is okay as long as you are, you know, you are aware, you are paying attention. Consequences are good. Open, transparent conversation is so vitally important.

So I, I think that's so critical. And let's face it, children have learned how to manipulate us from when they're born. They know that crying will attract their— our attention and get them fed. Um, so, and as they get older, they just get more subtle and manipulative.

But, uh, yes, yes, they do. Oh, absolutely. It has, you know, I always say, you know, I always love you. Sometimes I don't like you.

Yeah, yeah, you can still— we can say, but, but I think you've just got— you, you have to be open to what they're going through. Um, but yes, then just make sure that it's not being used too much as an excuse.

Correct, correct. And I think that's, you know, that, that's definitely where we wanted to, where we were going with that. But I want to kind of shift a little bit because I— there's so much I want to learn from you and that I want everyone out there to learn from you. You are just quite an extraordinary person with such an interesting experience. So I just want to kind of start with your view of the acceptance of transgender persons in society today.

Society has moved so far in the last 20 years. I think it's important to remember that there was nowhere in the world that had, um, marriage equality in the last century. Nowhere. And a lot of younger LGBT activists just don't appreciate that. So I— homosexuality was still illegal in my home state until my final year at school. So when I was growing up, you didn't talk really about homosexuals or, um, at all, let alone gender divergent people. So there, I remember we had on the farm we grew up, there was, uh, two male nurses who lived within a kilometer. And it was only, I think, in my— towards the end of my schooling that Mum acknowledged that they were both homosexual. And in Wagga Wagga, which is the pronunciation of the town.

Of course. See, I knew I was totally butchering that. Butchering that. I'm so sorry.

You know, it was a— you know, I, I was just a normal farm boy, um, who learned very quickly that any thoughts of being a girl or of doing feminine things just was— it wasn't even to be contemplated. So all of those feelings were very much suppressed. And then I went away to an all-boys boarding school. And, you know, that's not an environment where you explore your sexuality or your gender identity. You conform, conform, and conform. And it was— in all honesty, it was actually not that hard. I, I was a So I was a good student. I, because I, I think I was 6 foot 1 when I was in year 7, um, so I think that's—

goodness gracious.

So I always had presence. I, you know, I, I was rowing in the top crew until my final year when I got dropped to the second. So I was an athletic strong young man. And no one— the only aberration was the fact that I played hockey, being field hockey, not ice hockey. That is completely acceptable. It's a male sport here in Australia. I was a prefect, I was house president, you know, I, I was a jock. And I had had a girlfriend, a long, steady girlfriend for a long time there. So there was nothing to indicate what was going on in my head at times. I think the— yeah, look, I say that, but I do remember that in my final year, my parents came to visit me at school. And because I was pretty successful there, I was quite proud and showing them around and saying, you know, this is our common room, this is my room. And at the end of the tour, tour, my father asked my mother to leave us alone. I thought, this, this is a bit odd. And, uh, he, he pulled me aside and said, look, you're quite prissy. You need to be more— you need to man up more. Oh, and I was shocked. And, um, I didn't know how to react to that. And so I can't even remember how the conversation went from that because it's really black.

I'm sure. Yes.

But that, so that was an indication, but there was no outward manifestations of what I was feeling. And then I go to university, first year university. I met Catherine, my, my, my now wife, and, um, we, you know, we fell in love and we did all the normal things that you do. And this interest in cross-dressing, this interest in the feminine side, you know, by— as I grew older, I get more economically independent and financially able to indulge in these sort of things. And that was when I found you could go to places and they would dress— cross-dress you for you. And that first time that happened was, was incredible. Um, and you know, if you like, I can tell you about that experience, but it's absolutely—

yes.

So, you know, I've And I think I was about 26, 27, but I'd been thinking about it for about 4 or 5 years beforehand. I'm sure. And then so one day I turn up to this house which was a specialist in providing cross-dressing services.

How do you even find something like that? That's amazing.

If you have the interest, you will find it.

You and Heather Hester.

And, but of course, at that stage, the, the internet was in the very early stages, um, and, you know, and there's bulletin boards and all sorts of weird things. But because you're motivated, even though this is a side of myself that I'm not even acknowledging to myself, right, still doing this research Um, and, uh, so I turn up to this fairly nondescript house, get taken into a room which has a wardrobe like you wouldn't believe it, and around the top of the room there's all the mannequins with the wigs, and it's like you've got this audience, uh, watching you. But the mirror was all covered, and you go, okay, anyhow, and then it's all 'What would you like to wear?' And then we sat down, had the makeup applied, and then the wig is put on. And it's only then that the mirror was uncovered, and that's when I saw myself for the first time. And I really loved what I was seeing, and it was such a magical time. Because I just go, oh my God, I can be beautiful. Because, and it's, you know, and that was— lasts an hour or so, an hour and a half, and then you have to pack it all up, you know, just rub your face raw to get rid of any traces, and then you walk away going 'That's disgusting. I am a horrible person. What am I doing?' Um, and I must never do that again. And I think it was another, at least another year until I did do it again. But it's—

wow.

And so gender dysphoria is, you know, I heard this great analogy which is fantastic for the times we live in now. Gender dysphoria is like you're on a bad Zoom call and everyone's, and everyone's yelling at you, you're on mute, and you can't be heard, you can't see yourself.

And that's why I love that.

I, I looked in the mirror, I didn't like what I saw. You know how one of the big things in the trans community is often showing the before and after photos? I have difficulty doing that because I hated what I looked like, so I did not take photos of myself. I took a lot of photos, but I was always the one behind the camera, not in front. You know, clearly there are photos out there. But nowadays, you know, I try and limit myself to 7 or 8 selfies a day.

Um, I love it.

And it's great to have children there to just remind you of, oh no, not another selfie. Why? What are you doing? Stop doing that.

Yes, kids are very good at keeping us in check, aren't they?

Correct, correct. I mean, how dare you spend time on yourself rather than what's really important?

Exactly. I don't know who you think you are.

Correct.

Yeah, correct. Oh my goodness.

You know, so that's was the experience growing up, and it was just all about be the person you're supposed to be, be that movie reel. And I look, I did law, I did commerce, I was always interested in being an investment banker, a merchant banker. So I was on a fairly conservative, high-achieving pitch. So I just threw myself into my work and that was my focus. My focus was that. So suppression was not that hard, but then those need to have cross-dressing experience just grows and grows. And there's a lot of surveys that's saying that, you know, it's around 33 through to 45, when the compo— the pressure just becomes too much for late transitioning people. And that's when they have to do something about it, or they kill themselves, which is so tragic. It's, it's the harsh reality of when you deny yourself, deny your real identity, it just becomes too uncomfortable. So that's why I think the statistics are 60 to 70% of transgender people have attempted suicide at some stage. And, um, myself, I believe the other 20% are lying.

Wow, that's something that everybody needs to just sit with for a minute because that is, that is so powerful. And the, the reasoning behind it, that's why we're doing what we're doing, right?

Yeah.

And that's not okay.

And the reason you reach that place And this is more about male to female transgender. There are different pressures on female to male, but there's a great show on Netflix at the moment, um, called Disclosure. And what it is looking at is trans representation in the media and the messages that we receive from so early on life about being trans is a joke. You're going to be a drug user, you'll be a sex worker, you'll be, you'll be murdered. Or you can take the J.K. Rowling route and say you'll be a predator yourself. You'll, you're only doing it in order to go out and, you know, cause harm, or for— it's all about sexual desire. It's such a negative portrayal. And of course, there's this whole toxic masculinity, which from my background, I, you know, which is more conservative, I try not to embrace, but I can't deny it. You're always told, be a man, don't cry, be strong, right?

You know, right?

You know, you— you know, it's the whole Brené Brown. It's, you know, be up there on that white horse, don't fall off, um, until the pressure just becomes too much and it— and you break. You break.

Did you reach that point?

Without a doubt, without a doubt. So I— yeah, this is actually a very interesting— I'm on a 5-year anniversary at the moment.

So congratulations.

So next Wednesday was the first time I ever went out in public. As Rochelle. And wow, I remember standing in front of the hotel room door and the thoughts running through my mind about, what are you doing? This is madness. If you do this, your life is over. You will lose your job, you will lose your family, and you will lose access to your children. But I, I was at the stage where I would rather die than not step through that door. So I had to cast everything off and step through that door. It wasn't big enough for everyone else to come with me. I had to do it on my own. And although it was just so exciting to do, get out there and do it, it was such a lonely walk down the hallway towards the lift. And when I got to the lift, there was no one else there, and that was just fantastic. I breathed a sigh of relief. And then a mother and her child came out and were waiting at the lift as well. And the mother wanted to kill me. They just did. And the child's eyes were just bugging out of their head.

Hi.

And I just had to stand there and go, this is what I want. And I got— went down and was going to a meeting of a support group and, um, That was the night when I've got— it was just the euphoria was just amazing. I'd been dressing for decades, but nothing had prepared me for how good I felt to be acknowledged as she. Pronouns are so important. It was, you know, and the next morning I think of it as, you know, probably the worst hangover I've ever had in my life. And it wasn't the alcohol, it was the reality that my life— I knew it was over, and it was just a question of how much I could salvage going forward.

But stepping into your authentic self was worth it, right? Because otherwise it would have all been gone. Yeah, everything else was irrelevant.

That, that's what it came to.

I can't imagine the courage that that took.

I don't know if it's courage. I think it's desperation.

And okay, that's fair.

Yeah, you reach a stage where you acknowledge you don't want to end your life, you just have to change it.

Right.

And I had so much that I loved that I wanted to stay. And if it didn't, if it didn't work, then I'd kill myself.

Wow, you put everything on the line.

That was where you were because you have that as your alternative, right?

Exactly. But I think that's so powerful for people to really understand that.

Yeah, I mean, I was successful. I had a good business. I have a wife I love. I had two boys who I just adored, but I wasn't there. I wasn't present. The dysphoria had got to me that, you know, I was out drinking. I was out, out of home at least a couple of nights a week. You know, I had any excuse I could be because you get, you have this rage inside you and it's blocking so much. And always it's just like, how do I get to a situation where I can be me and balance that with my everyday life? And that's initially I was aiming for, was to get to a situation where I wasn't living so much of a lie, particularly with Catherine, because she knew none of this. You know, she, she knew there was something going on, but she didn't— certainly didn't know, um, my ex-partner. That's just another story. He knew there was something askew in my life. When I told him, he said, I had a lot of theories. This was not one of them.

Oh my goodness. I am sure. I mean, wow. Trying to imagine being in that place of everything that you knew you had to be willing to let go of to be your authentic self, right? Because as much as you loved all of those pieces, if you couldn't be who you are then life was not worth living at all.

Yeah.

And for you to be able to kind of pull all of those pieces apart and say, well, I have to do this in order to save all of these things that I do love. That's the only— this is the only way, you know, there is through, right? I have to walk through this. Yeah. And, um, and, and you had no idea what would be on the other side other than the fact that you would be living.

So I, I mean, leading up to that, of course, I'd done— I'd been with a therapist for 8 months. At least 3 and a half months of that was just lying. Gaming, my therapist. I had a lot to do. I had a lot of common with Connor in that regard. Um, and you know, and when I was speaking to her, eventually I came out and I said to her, look, I think I'm bisexual, because that was less shameful than admitting that I was a crossdresser. You know, I still see myself as a failed man.

You still did at that point, or you still do now?

In my dark moments, yes, I still see that now, because I'm not what society wanted me to be. And I think that's what people— why the acceptance, why the Pride events, why they're so important, because in our heart of hearts, we still have that messaging eating away at us. So, sure, I mean, I've digressed, but your original question was about acceptance in society. This, this is why things like misgendering wound so deeply, why it's so visceral. 'When someone calls me sir, it means he knows I'm a fraud. They know I'm a fraud. They, they're laughing at me. I am a joke.' It's such a simple pronoun. That's, that's why pronouns are so critical, because when you're misgendered, it goes to the heart of your soul. That you're truly living an authentic life. So in Melbourne nowadays, that happens rarely. It happens, it happens quite often. It's not so bad nowadays, so I must be getting better. But, uh, but most nights I finish, if I've been out, so not something I've done for 8 months, um, That's right. If I get home and the taxi driver or the Uber driver will say, have a good night, sir, uh, that's a hell of a way to finish a night, right? But that's— so that's Melbourne. But when I go— I traveled in Europe at the start of this year. I arrive in the UK and passport control person examines my passport. So I've got F for my gender on my passport. I mean, I have been on a plane for 23 hours, I get it, I wasn't looking at my best. But he still says, welcome, sir. And then he had this big smirk. And every official I encountered in that airport and at Heathrow all referred to me as sir. Oh, I went out walking the next morning with Catherine and the boys, and we were walking in Hyde Park. A woman actually started laughing when she saw me.

Oh my goodness.

So when I— when we talk about where are we, yeah, acceptance in society, I'm pretty surprised that in fact Melbourne seems to be a terribly accepting place, and it's really quite good. It's come on in the last 10, 15 years, but there's lots of places in the rest of the world where there's a lot of work to be done. Misgendering was a constant experience in Europe, in, in Belgium of all places. I almost got turned away from a hairdresser.

What?

Well, because she didn't want someone like me in the hairdresser. Now, that was the girl at the desk. The owner came over, come in, come in, and did my hair herself. Um, so it just seems— but you know what really drove it home for me is it became quite clear when I'm being misgendered so often over there. The panhandlers, the street people never misgendered me. So it was apparent what I wanted to be, look, to how I wanted to be treated. But because they had a financial interest in identifying me the right way, they were prepared to do it. But everyone else just can't be stuffed, right? Last thing I checked, there's— they don't have gender identity training for street people.

Ah, no, it's just that they don't.

Yes, they just are willing to get it, but other people can't be bothered.

Can't be bothered. Won't be bothered, those sort of things. Um, I feel like the lack of— compassion is not the word, but being able to see people for who they are and love them and accept them for who they are is something that we still need a lot of work there is a lot of work to be done there. And part of that is being willing to let go of, you know, all the stuff, right? All that— whatever your, your mental— what you've been, you know, whether taught or hung on to or whatever it is letting go of that and just seeing people. And then, and you know, and that goes into being present, right? And being, being human, kind of really participating in the human experience. And there's a lot of work to be done. And, you know, everything that you've shared just confirms that.

Yeah. And it's It's strange that people pick the things that they want to retain. So, you know, some people who say so rigidly that there is a— there must be a binary, they must have a man, male, and you must have female, they should never cross over. But you then point them in the direction of the intersex experience and say, hey, there's quite clinically, medically, that there is so many variations that occur. There's approximately 36 different intersex or differences in sexual development that can occur, but everyone still reverts back to what they learned in year 10 and say, oh, but there's XY and 'XX, that's all there is.' And it goes, 'Well, I can show you the research that shows you that there are far more chromosome combinations than just that.' And it's like, 'No, no, no.' And people—

that's the basics, right? I mean, that's where it starts. Yeah, I think it's, you know, it is so fascinating. And I think, you know, when you— you can look at it from several, you know, whether you want to look at it from scientific point of view, whether you want to look at it from religious point of view. There's such a desire to, you know, things have always been one or the other, you know, black and white. And this, the concept of being able to see gray and acknowledge that gray is what everything is, right? That I think I referenced this maybe on, on an episode recently, maybe not, maybe I wrote about it. But anyway, My daughter, a year or two ago, was doing some research and she came across this phenomenal article. And it was written about, or written by, a non-binary person. And they were talking about, they were referencing science, not going into the detail that you just did, which I think is so fascinating as well because I love science. But it was referencing, it was more written about the religious point of view. And it was so— I loved it so much because that's my background too. But it was talking about, you know, in the Bible it says, you know, there's day and night and there's land and sea and there's— right. But nobody walks around and says, oh my gosh, it's dusk. It's an abomination. Right. But it's there. Dusk is a thing. Dawn is the thing. Right. And marshes are a thing and streams are a thing. And, you know, all of these that aren't acknowledged because, oh my gosh, there's only so much room to write, right? And, and I, I loved that article so much because for me it was, it was such a beautiful way of saying, holy cow, like, pay attention, people. Like, really think about this and what this means and the possibility to open your minds and to see and to understand, to me, is just— it was such a mind-expanding experience. You know, something that I already knew here, but it was here, right? I just pointed to my heart in my head for all of you people listening. Sorry. But, you know, just to your point of there is a huge continuum.

And And, and what's incredible is how— if I go back to the, um, intersex experience and trans, and let's not conflate the two, I, I don't want to erase— people get in such knots over the thought of young trans people undergoing gender-confirming surgery. And it's a serious operation, I understand that. But then they have no problems at all at performing surgery on a baby whose genitals have not— don't fit the bill. And that's horrific. And it goes on today where people are surgically altering and castrating young babies because they think that the penis is not big enough and they'll never be able to gratify a woman. So they will castrate, remove the penis, and that poor child will continue to have surgeries through their teen year— through to their teen years to create the neovagina. But for to perform it, you know, have puberty blockers or perform gender confirmation on a trans child is an abomination. But provided those intersex people get to have the right sort of looking, um, genitals, then it's all okay. People have insane thoughts and they're not—

there's no No, it's such a double standard.

Completely.

It is, you know, and it goes again. I, I often, even before Connor, you know, came out and before I knew anything, I always thought, why do people care? You know, like, as far as like voicing a negative opinion or trying to drive something, why?

Why?

I don't understand that. It had— if it has nothing it's not affecting you in any way, negative or positive. Why wouldn't you want another human being to be who they authentically are? Why does— you know, that's still— I still then, of course, I think about it even more so now, um, but it's quite extraordinary to me.

It's a huge pressure to conform. And somehow or another, when people don't conform, that's a challenge to what people perceive to be right, you know?

Yeah, I mean, I get it on a— and logically I understand it.

And, and people, you know, they like to say, you know, in the transgender situation 'Oh, this is just a new fad. This is a new— this has only just happened.' You know, when, when I spoke in Europe last year, I spoke with a woman who was 90. I think she was about 90, but she had transitioned in the 1960s. She had gender-conforming surgery in, um, Morocco, I think it was, at that time.

Wow.

And what was, what was extraordinary was talking to her, and the conversation that she had had with her father matched the conversation where my father had told me to stop being so prissy. Our experience had been the same.

Wow.

When I was in Europe this year and I visited Pompeii and I went to the museums, and I was in Britain, saw the museums there, and you look at the pictures and you look at the statues, there are so many transgender or, you know, gender non-conforming images there. Cross-dressed males, Dionysus and Bacchus, they're all got This is not a new thing. No, this is— oh no, it is part of the human condition, you know.

And absolutely, it's, it's absolutely—

and it's just, yes, only now can we do surgery, only now can we have— do we have the technology for hormones, but that's a good thing. You know, it's not a very good thing, not a bad thing. And, uh, we have progressed medically, we have progressed, but society still has some way to go.

Yes, they do. Yes, they do. And, and that is our, that is our mission, right?

Yes, that's right. I mean, a lot of people have a perception of what transgender people are, and they, they see them as being some form of racy or go-go dancers, drag queens.

The—

look, I can't sing or dance to save myself. Um, uh, I, you know, there was, uh, there's an amazing trans woman. I make— I think her name was Lynn Conway, who was pivotal inventing the, the modern computer interface. She worked for IBM back in the '60s. When she transitioned, she was fired immediately, so she had to go away. And this is what used to happen to trans people. You were told to cut off ties with all your previous life. Move to a new town so that no one would ever know your dirty secret. No wonder I had no visibility. They were all being told, hide and conceal this shameful secret that you have. Anyhow, she did that, and then she started work with someone else, and she invented this— I don't actually understand what it was, but it was one of the pivotal, um, starts for the modern computer interface. And you just go, there's a lot of boring, normal trans people out there in society just living their life and just wanting to live their life normally, right? And that's— I think that's where I'm, I'm getting to now. So from that 5 years ago, now I'm living a pretty amazing life.

Are you living a— do you feel like you're living a normal, boring life?

Yeah, it has its moments.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, you know, my weekends were taking children to sport. Um, it's, you know, trying to make sure that the children are fed, that, you know, that they get to school. I go to the school parent-teacher meetings. I mingle with the other parents. Um, I mean, the, the big thing I learned early though was that if I go to a women's only event, I must wear flats.

Yeah, yes, that is, that is a good lesson. Um, yes, at 6'3", you are, you are a foot taller than me without— with flats.

So I went to, I went to an International Women's Day event and I was wearing heels because I just was so happy with them, and it was like, alrighty, uh, there is—

hello, Olive! You— oh my gosh, that's so funny. Yes, I'm sure you were— I mean, that probably made you what, 6'5", 6'6"? Yeah. Yeah, that's tall.

Yeah, yeah. So I have to wind back that enthusiasm. And of course, yes, now that I get to where, you know, I get up in the morning, I put on my clothes and things like that, the thrill of heels has died a long time ago.

Yes. Uh-huh. Um, yes, well, especially right now because you don't really have any place to go with heels on, right?

Correct.

Uh-huh. Yes, my gym shoes and my Birkenstocks have become my best friends.

That's correct. Yes, very much.

Nobody sees my feet. So I really want to— I was so excited when, uh, you know, we were sharing ideas on questions because my daughter, who is a freshman in high school, had just come to me the other day. Um, they're doing a, you know, current events, and they had to pick different topics they were interested in, um, that they're eventually going to debate. And one of the topics she brought to me was transgender and sport. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is so exciting, because this is the one of the things you wanted to talk about. So I told her, I was like, this is going to be fantastic because we have an expert and we had, you know, we're going to get some, some really good information right here that you can use.

It's become a hot topic. There's no doubt about the fact that it is a hot topic, but it goes back to this whole concept of the gender binary that people— or the— and I hate the term, but the biological— what people say are the biological realities aren't what they think they are. So they think that, you know, there is this huge gap between the abilities of male athletes and female athletes. But if you go and take random studies of testosterone of female athletes and male athletes, you find that it's not as wide a difference as you might expect. So, but that's at the elite level. And we need to then— you look at a broader and say, well, we want to be at— we want girls to play sport, we want all to play sport. I think that's a really important thing. Um, and so we want them to be safe. And then they go, well, how can it be safe when you're playing with a boy? That which is what they tend to call us. And the reality is that the advantage is not so great, particularly if you're talking about young trans children now who potentially have never been through puberty, a male puberty. And that nuance gets excluded from the discussion completely. But then you also get to what, what happens once you've had testosterone suppression, and the impact of that is vast. Your endurance just disappears so quickly, and your strength disappears so quickly. But there's this huge fear of suddenly trans women will dominate our women's sport, and the cis girls will never have a chance against them. It's, it's demonstrably not the case. So we go back and you have a look at Dr. Renee Richards, who was allowed to play women on the women's tennis circuit back in 19— about 1977, 1981. So trans women have been able to compete on the women's tennis competition since that time. Wow. She won a court case, became quite clear that trans women could compete. Now, if there is a sport that is more inducive to financial inducements for people to pretend to be a woman and come in and take advantage of so-called superior strength and agility, that would be a sport. You would imagine that, you know, if that people were being driven by a financial incentive, trans women would have flooded the tennis tournament, right? She's the only one that ever came close, and I think she ranked as high as 22. Now admittedly, she was older She was not exactly at her prime at that time, but you look at every other sport, there has been no trans women sporting champions in any event in an open age category. We've had one world championship, and that's in veteran cycling, um, and she loses as many races as she wins. Then I know in the US there was a big hoo-ha about CeCe Telfer. CeCe won an NCAA championship. Fantastic. And that made for great headlines, but it was the B-grade competition. It wasn't the A-grade. Her— right, her winning time would have put her in 7th place in the A-grade. So there's a lot of things that go into what an advantage is, and I think you'll find that, that those biological markers that people are so fearful of just aren't, aren't the keys that matter so much. I think one of the advantages that male to female athletes have is that if they've trained as a male, they've been forced to take it seriously, and they've always been far more serious about sport than some of their female compatriots. And that's not a problem with transgender sport, that's a problem with the misogyny that goes on around females, or, and why resources aren't being devoted to female results. Sports. That's the, you know, that's the problem. You then have this whole outright lie about, oh my God, we can't let trans women into change rooms because they will prey upon our girls. And it's like, or our girls might get to see a penis. Um, most trans women are terribly ashamed of the fact that they might still have a penis. They're gonna hide it. And right, and the, the, this whole sexual attraction thing, you know, hello, there's lesbians in the world as well. Are we going to exclude them from change rooms? Now I can see that a lot of people who raise these arguments would like to do that.

Right, exactly. Yeah, don't give them ideas.

But these are, they're outmoded, their fears, it's pure fearmongering. We need to keep monitoring the situation, we need to collect data, but you know, in tennis it's been 40 years with no great exploitation. In, in, oh, I think in the NCAA competition, it's over 12 years that they've had the rules allowing transgender participation. It hasn't become a significant obstacle, and they're not blocking cis women coming through. It's pure fear-mongering. And this whole conjecture of, but someone would pretend to be a woman in order to, you know, they'll put that, they'll transition just to win competitions. You know, honey, honey, yeah, do you really think I would live this life where people move away from me on public transport? And laugh in my face just to win a sporting competition. It's just, it's unreal.

So it's just such a disconnect from reality, reality, and from truth. And, and I mean, you hit the nail on the head with the, with the fear-mongering and It is a lack of education, and it's a lack of the willingness to understand.

Yeah, and one of the other things that infuriates me is when people say, why can't they just go and play in their own sports league? And the reality is, for a start, we want to be part of society. We don't want to live in a ghetto. And secondly, there's nowhere near enough trans women around to ever make a league. You know, I think in Hockey Victoria there are 3 trans women playing at the moment. We can't even field a team, let alone having— have an opposition, right?

That's craziness.

And sport, particularly community sport, is so integral to mental health, feeling belonging, you know, enjoying life. It's such an important aspect of it. If you want people to be part of the society, you must allow them to participate in community sport. We need to revisit it. Maybe every 5 to 10 years. If cis women are being pushed out from sport, then I'd be one of the first ones to say we must modify the rules that we're playing with. But at the moment— but at the moment, that's just not happening. No, it's going to be a continued vexed issue. But, um, fortunately, a lot of the sporting bodies are holding their nerves and they're going forth because they can see that it's not the issue that people try to make it out to be, right?

Exactly. Which, thank goodness, right? So they're being— they're able to kind of hold all of that at bay and, um, keep moving forward. And I think the best thing that, you know, the rest of us can do is just continue to educate people and point to, like you just did, you know, specific examples and very, you know, specific reasons. Yeah, actual science, right?

I mean, I think that is— I will say that I am an advocate for testosterone suppression in, um, transgender, male to female transgender athletes. I, I, from what I've seen, that's probably fair. Um, there are others that disagree with me, but, um, I— that's where I am at this stage.

Okay, interesting. Okay, well, this will be great. My daughter's going to be thrilled. You just served her her argument right there.

I think that I'll send her that— that is— will assist her greatly.

Okay, awesome. Thank you. Um, so I mean, so such great timing. I was so excited. This is awesome. I love it. It's so much great. There's so many things I want to ask you, but I want to just, um I want to shift a little bit into kind of present day, your experience, you know, parenting, what it's like for you parenting as a transgender woman.

Yeah, look, it's— I guess we, we did just gloss over the fact that eventually I came out to Catherine. She had her oh my God moment. That probably ran for about 2 years. Um, and then we told the children. And the children, you know, it was such a stressful moment building up to that period. Uh, I'm sure telling them— and we knew that once we told them, we had to tell the world.

So, right.

So we told them at the end of the school year, and then their immediate reaction was that this was another prank by Dada, um, and the images that they were being shown. So what the way I told them was I prepared a book, a storybook for them. And so, and of course, to make sure they read it, there was lots of pictures of themselves in it. Um, so we all sat down, I gave it to the younger one, and they started reading and reading it out to us until it got to the page that said that I was transgender and I was now going to live as a woman. And they've gone— his first reaction was, is that true? He's— do, do men just become women when they get older?

No, that's not, that's not what happens.

But their acceptance, once they realized it wasn't a joke, was immediate. So for a week I was still living as a man, but they knew. And I would come home and my youngest child would say, why aren't you Rochelle today? You know, don't you want to be happy? Oh. Oh, and so, you know, I, I speak to them about it occasionally, and they both say, well, I'm happy because I can tell you're so much happier than what you used to be, and that makes me happy, and I want you to be happy. Now, they're not teenagers yet, so they might change, but, uh, Well, they'll still think that on the inside.

They just won't say it out loud.

Correct. Now, um, and you know, from Catherine's perspective, it's been really, really challenging. I don't think anyone can deny that. It's a, you know, we just talk about the movie reel. The movie reel did not include us going, growing old and stealing each other's bras.

Um, the—

so, but, but what she says now is she has got back the person she fell in love with. Oh, because they— that person had gone. The dysphoria had made that person go away. And now she has that person back.

Oh, I love that. And that's what matters.

Yeah. And so, you know, it's any marriage, you go through periods, um, but we are much closer emotionally than we've ever— we've been for, you know, more than a decade.

That is extraordinary.

So that walk I took down that hallway on my own actually brought me back closer to the people I thought I'd left behind.

That is amazing. I mean, really extraordinary.

It's, it's, it's been such— I'm such a calmer person. I'm I'm present, right? And that makes the world of difference. I don't have that rage in me anymore.

We don't have the mental distraction, right? I mean, that was taking up, you know, like I said, like a lot of mental real estate. It probably—

huge amount at the end.

I'm guessing it was like taking over.

Yeah, and you're living a lie upon a lie upon a lie, right? You know, and I thought, I thought that once I transitioned, I'd suddenly have so much more time because I didn't have a double life. But now I'm so present. My, my life has consumed everything, and it's wonderful.

Yeah. Oh, that just brings me so much joy, hearing you say that and watching you say that. And I, I wish I could translate that. I hope that everybody out there can, can feel that, because there's, there's not— there's no commentary that's needed. This is what we want for anyone who is right, who's coming out, transitioning, just, you know, wanting to be who their authentic self is, you know, striving for that. And it just brings me— I'm just, I'm so delighted.

The joy of living authentically and being present can't be overstated.

I see it, and you've shared this so beautifully and articulately, and I've seen it with Connor, and right? And it is absolutely, there are not words. I literally, I just get, I get super emotional about it because it's walking with someone through this journey is, you kind of have a sense of what others experience, And goodness, I mean, I don't think you said it perfectly.

Yeah.

The presence, right? I mean, it's perfect.

Yeah. You got to get through the fire, but it's— Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it's not all roses. There's that walking through. You have to walk through, right? The walking through can be really ugly. And you—

and the person going through the experience has responsibilities and has to be kind as well.

Hmm. Yes. Words of, of deep wisdom to all of our, to all of our adolescents and teenagers who are listening.

Yes. There was a time where I was running off the rails. Um, you know, because I was going out and it was fantastic. And, um, and then I realized if I, if I wanted to hold on to the things I loved, I, I had to work on that as well.

Well, it's finding the balance, right?

Yeah, completely.

And it's a new kind of— it's It's a new kind of balance because it's a, it's a true balance as opposed to one that you were kind of creating that wasn't, you know, it was a conformed balance as something that you thought that everybody else wanted as opposed to something that really matched your insides.

Correct, correct.

I'm sure I could have said that a lot better, but you know what I mean.

Yeah, absolutely.

Oh my goodness. Well, I love talking about, you know, your parenting experience, and I'm just trying to even imagine— oh, your little boys, I just love that, that is so sweet. But I'm wondering if you can share what your experience and what your relationship is with your parents and, you know, kind of the flip side of that, right?

Yeah. Because we, we're all in this. We're all someone's child.

Exactly. Yes, we are.

And look, the, the, the sad thing is my parents had to pass away for me to feel free to come out, and I I probably would have happened regardless, but so they passed, they passed away, Dad in 2012 and Mum in 2013, and I started seeing a therapist towards the end of 2014 because I— maybe that's because I thought I had permission or I no longer had to fulfill that. But my relationship with them was always stunted because I was never— I never felt that I could live up or be who they expected me to be. And I— they never got to know the full me. And it's a cause of terrible sorrow to me. And I grieve greatly that I lacked the courage or the honesty to ever share with them what was really going on. So they lived in Wagga Wagga, I moved away to Melbourne, and through my 20s I rarely used to go home. Because I felt that I wasn't who they really wanted me to be, and that somehow they might see through the facade and that I would disappoint them. And I regret it deeply, and I feel that lack of a true, honest relationship with my parents is something I can never fix. Right. And it's, you know, you can't, you can't go back in time. You can't get those moments again. And what I particularly towards the end, my— I was very close with my mother, but she'd be going, so what have you, what have you done in this last week? And I can't go, well, I went through two complete transformations and and, and drank myself legless because I was dealing with the pain of this bizarre life I had. So she never had any form of insight on who I was, right? And that's, that's just a horrible thing to now look back and say My parents never knew me.

Yeah.

They knew an image of me.

Right.

And I know I can see my children try and conform to what they think I want them to be. And I'm always saying, you know, be yourself. Just go to bed when I tell you to go.

That's right. Eat your vegetables and go to bed and do your homework. But otherwise, be yourself.

Yes, that's exactly it.

Embrace your authenticity. Authenticity, but listen to me, right? Correct. Correct. Oh my goodness, yes, that does become tricky.

I think that's probably my greatest regret.

Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure. And so understandable why you did not share. I think that the parent-child relationship is so complicated, but we always want to please, right? And, and, you know, be this person that they, they think we are. Yeah.

And it's my sisters and I often theorize what would have happened.

And what have you come up with?

And my sisters say that my father would reject me, but I have to believe I have to believe that he would have come back and he would have embraced me.

It would have just taken time.

And time— and I guess this is a reminder that time is limited.

Yeah.

So we have to seize those moments to be accepting while we still have them and be open and be seen to be open, right? Because I never saw that capacity in my parents to accept me, so I always wanted to hide.

Mm-hmm. You know, that was a survival skill for you, correct? It's a— it was a very well-serving survival skill for many decades. So certainly understandable. But I think this is such a powerful message for everyone, right? Yeah. So important to see our kids, see our loved ones, and have an open mind. And when it's hard for you that's okay. Hard is not bad. Yeah, hard doesn't mean something is bad. Hard doesn't mean that you should reject it. Hard means that you need to do a little work.

Yep, and you've got to do the work.

You have to do the work. You absolutely have to do the work. I mean, I think that is actually a beautiful way to, to close, but is there anything that you would like to add or to to offer.

At the end of the day, I often think, should I have gone earlier? Should I have stepped out that door earlier? And the honest answer is, it's worked. It's been right for me. Everyone's journey is their own journey. Don't rush, but don't leave it too late. That's beautiful.

Perfect. I love it.

Okay.

I am so happy you joined us today. Remember to just breathe, taking those few minutes every day to focus on your breath and calm and center yourself. Email me at any time with ideas or feedback for Just Breathe. Please take a moment to review Just Breathe on the platform of your choice. And subscribe to my website to stay informed. You may also join the private Just Breathe Facebook community to chat with other parents and allies, and share with anyone who needs to know they are not alone. Until next time.