#33 | Behind Hook‑Up Apps & Homophobia: Real Insights and Allyship from a Gay Man’s POV

Welcome to Just Breathe: Parenting Your LGBTQ Teen, the podcast transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child. Filled with awesome guests, practical strategies, and moving stories, host Heather Hester always makes you feel like you're having a cozy chat. Wherever you are on this journey right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone. And here is Heather for this week's amazing episode.

Welcome to Just Breathe. I am so happy you are here today with me. I am delighted to introduce my guest for today. Britt East is the author of The Gay Man's Guide to Life and is a speaker who uses his experience, his strength, and hope to challenge and inspire change-oriented gay men to get down to business of improving their lives. He is approachable, he is engaging, and he is no nonsense. So without further ado, here is Britt East. Just thrilled to have you.

Thank you. I'm absolutely honored. I'm a huge fan of your podcast and more importantly, the work that you do in general, the advocacy. It's just heroic. I'm honored to be here.

Oh, well, thank you. Thank you so much. That really does mean a lot. You know, it's one of those things that I often think, okay, I hope that, I hope that people are hearing this and, you know, feeling it. So thank you very, very much. So we'll just go ahead and get started because I have some, some fun questions for you. I really thought there were a couple of things that stood out to me in your book, and for everyone listening, we will, we will dive into Britt's awesome book. It's called Gay Man's Guide to Life a little bit later in the interview, but I wanted to touch upon the idea of cultivating sustainable gay friendships. I think that's a really hard thing. And, um, could you just talk about that? Because there is, you know, like you said, there's this internalized homophobia. I know that, you know, Connor does struggle too, and he's not alone. You know, he has shared that with about other friends as well. Could you just talk about that a little bit?

Huge topic. Let me start by saying, in general, all things being equal, You can assume the level of trauma that a gay man has endured based on his age and where he grew up. You can make a presumption there. And so this is different for different age groups in different geographies, the level of internalized homophobia they've subsumed, the level of bigotry they have experienced. We carry all of that with us for the rest of our lives like a sack of rocks. And it inhibits all relationships. It inhibits all of our relatedness. And in fact, many of us are so wounded that we don't even see it. We spend our time living behind a series of masks. When it comes to gay men, for some reason, that often seems to be a best little boy in the world complex. Many gay men, although certainly not all, are often high achievers as a way to be unseen. To be unquestioned. Um, and if you've ever tried to be in a relationship of any kind with a high achiever, you know that it can be difficult. It can be transactional. And we often, as gay men, look for relationships, um, that lead us somewhere, that are of some use to us, because we're still so scared to be vulnerable and known First off, as men in this culture, and then sure, gay, um, we have such an abhorrence for the feminine, such deep-seated misogyny, that we turn inward. The way it is often expressed is that our friendships with other gay men are tentative at first. Have we slept with them? Do we know them from somewhere? Are they too gay? Are they going to out us or embarrass us? Are we attracted to them? These are the thoughts that run through our minds when we meet each other, especially if we think we're the only gay in the village kind of a thing, and we come across someone else that we recognize. It's not necessarily an immediately intrinsically joyous experience. It often feels a little bit nerve-wracking and anxious. Then friendships with people in the straight community are also challenging for us, whether we are still wrestling with the residual shame of our sexual orientation, we have not yet attuned to the trauma that we endured, the bullying maybe, for instance, at the hands of straight men as children, If we carry an undue amount of misogyny with us, that is often expressed negatively, inhibits our friendships with women. Maybe we see them as attachments, as accessories to our life, as opposed to fully realized human beings. You know, there's all sorts of stereotypes and clichés about the wacky gay next-door neighbor. And we might slip into that role inadvertently and use it as a mask so that we're not truly seen or known. We're just performing. So we're performing a friendship. So we could go on and on. This topic I write at length about in the book, and, and we could talk for hours just on this. But the bottom line is, when you meet a gay man, it's important to know that there is an epidemic of loneliness in our community that many of us are walking with and wrestling with. And so while we are doing fine by and large today, and there is so much bigotry and hatred than we've had in the past, we still carry those residual issues with us. And they're expressed in all sorts of different ways on a daily basis.

So what are ways that would be helpful? So for instance, me as a straight cisgender woman, how could I be a better friend to you, a gay man?

As adults, the best thing we can do is see each other as fully realized, complex individuals and create space for all of our humanity to get curious and question what prejudices and biases we might be carrying that we're not even aware of. I mean, look, in a world steeped in straight supremacy, all of us make homophobic choices from time to time. Even gay people. So of course, straight people, you're gonna put your foot in your mouth, you're going to step in it, you're gonna do something that you don't mean to do, and you don't mean any harm by it, and you just kind of step in a cow pie. And the best we can do is have the spirit of generosity, mutual generosity, to create space for one another to make mistakes, clean up after them, own them, and then move on and love one another. But as soon as we start forcing each other into the arena of playing roles, that's actually a violent, dehumanizing humanizing process, whether we're desexualizing your gay friends, you are using them as entertainment, using them as ways to colorize and accessorize your life, that then is leading us away from our humanity and inhibits any sort of true mutual exchange of energy and love and vulnerability.

Wow, that's really powerful. And I think that that last part that you hit on is probably what younger generations are seeing. And I, you know, I may not be completely accurate, but I'm just kind of guessing. So I'm wondering, do you think that's, that's true? Because I think, you know, teenagers especially are, you know, they're trying to, they're trying to figure things out.

Right?

And, you know, there's like the, you know, my son always joked about being, you know, the gay best friend, you know, oh, I'm the gay best friend, you know, I'm the prom date, I'm the safe prom date, or the safe, what, you know, right? You know, he wasn't alone in that. And even though he felt very alone in that. And so I'm wondering, then kind of Shifting that just a little bit, but piggybacking on it, what advice or how can we help our kids, both our kids who are in the LGBTQ community and our kids who are straight, how can we better parent them and better just give them better tools to treat each other with respect and love and kindness and compassion?

When it comes to kids in particular, I think it's important to recognize that so much of what they tell you is rooted in the present and is fluid. If a kid comes out to you as gay, that doesn't mean they will necessarily identify that way their entire life or even the next 15 minutes. These roles are changing all the time, for one thing. The language is changing all the time, for one thing. So I have tremendous empathy for the straight community trying to keep up, trying to catch up. And, you know, as adults, that's why I say it's important for us to cultivate a spirit of generosity. When it comes to kids, if you extend that generosity to making everything okay, however they identify as okay, whether it's gay, bi, pan, anything in between, fluid, whatever their gender orientation, and you show genuine empathy and curiosity. But the most important piece happens even before that. Kids, especially teenagers, are excellent BS detectors. And if you have any inauthentic portion of your life, they're going to hone in on it and hold you accountable relentlessly and throw it up in your face. The more that you can cultivate a life of diversity and you set that stage before they're born, frankly, but certainly as they're growing up, there you're going to signal in all sorts of unconscious, subconscious, inadvertent ways that whoever they are is just fine. Because you have a wide range of friends and loved ones of all races, ethnicities, sexual orientations, gender orientations, presentations, expressions, what have you. You have a full, you know, rainbow of love in your life, and that signals to the community, that signals to everyone that you love, that it is all okay, and they can be who they are in that moment, whatever it is.

That is fantastic. I just want to take all of that and just like put it as like my quote for this episode. That is so— I mean, that's really perfect. And that is, that is the message that I, you know, I so wish I had known 20 years ago, 22 years ago, um, because I have had to shift, you know, me personally, I've had to shift a lot, and I've had to be very vulnerable with my kids in that, you know, here's where I— you all know where I was, and you all know where Dad was, and, and this is what we're working through, and we're, and we're learning, and we're trying to understand. And oh my goodness, did we I don't know why we saw things that way, but now, you know, it's like this explosion, right? In the middle of raising kids is not the best time for that to happen. So you're absolutely right that ideally that, you know, just embracing and embodying that.

That's the keyword, by the way. Embodying is the keyword. You exude love for everyone.

Right, that unconditional love, right? And, and really understanding what that means. I've begun actually to write a lot about this, and I— the more I, you know, kind of write about it and research things, and I think most, most of us really don't truly understand what that means, like to love unconditionally, right?

Absolutely.

And this might be, you know, somewhat naive, um, but I feel like if you have that, everything else is possible.

Then you said that perfectly. I thought you were going to go to a naive space, but possible is the keyword because you've created a platform, that, uh, launch pad for your children that they can then jump off of and have adventures and experience life, including all of the shadow and darkness and downsides. That's part of the journey that you wouldn't want to— you would not want to to deny them anyway. So it doesn't guarantee any outcome, but accept that everything is possible. I think you said it beautifully.

Okay, well, thank you. Good, because sometimes I think I get in this idealistic space of—

it's easy to get there, right?

Right.

And so we want to love one another, and it's easy to think, okay, now— and this is so what I so want to impart to your listeners too— it's so easy to think, okay, now am I done? I love my kids. I've reached this destination of where I truly don't think I hold any conscious prejudices or bias towards anybody in the queer community. Okay, now am I done? Now are they just going to be happy? The answer is no. You're not done and they will not be happy. That is just the starting line. That's not the finish line. That is the starting line.

Boy, you weren't kidding when you said you, uh, didn't, uh, you weren't going to hold anything back. Um, there it is, people. That's the starting line. We're all at the starting line, so buckle your seat belts. All this sweating and crying we've been doing so far is just the starting line.

Just because there's love in the four walls of your house, that your kids are going to be prevented from experiencing pain when they enter the world, especially a world steeped in straight supremacy, you're wrong.

Right. And, and prepare them for it, right?

It's so hard because prepare children for something you, in many cases, know nothing about, at least through lived experience. I mean, there's only so far that empathy and research can take you. And if you've never lived as part of a sexual minority, there's only so far. And that's where that mentorship through a diversity of loved ones in your family or your friends comes in so that they can cultivate those relationships with with benevolent adults and witnesses on their own.

Right, right. And that has been, I will tell you, one of the hands-down biggest helps for Connor, and that he's had both a mentor and now a therapist who are both gay men.

Awesome.

Huge. And because the benevolent adult relationship, like, you hit the nail on the head. That is what they need. Um, 90% of it, right? I mean, it— the difference is extraordinary. And, and I will tell you that it— you know, he's at school in New York City. Knowing these things allows me to— you know, he can go back there and I'm not losing sleep. You know, I'm not like biting my nails all the time. I'm He is where he is supposed to be.

And as parents, it's part of your journey to relinquish control. And I can say that because I don't have any kids, so it's easy for me to sit up here and, and say, okay, get over it. But you have to. I mean, that's the more that you try to constrain and control them, you're just going to drive them nuts and they're going to rebel anyway. You all know this, right? And so when you go through a traumatic experience or many traumatic experiences as part of, which is par for the course in raising a queer kid, Um, then part of that is finding a path to set down your trauma and heal so they can witness that healing in you.

Mm-hmm.

And thereby heal part of themselves. Your family is a unit, and if part of you are, are not well, then none of you are fully well.

That's correct. I mean, that is— you are absolutely right. Um, you know, I always say I'm as calm or happy as my least calm or happy child, right? I mean, that's kind of And so just kind of naturally, but being— I think to that point, the being aware and of the fact that they are watching everything and being willing to be vulnerable with that process of healing, of, you know, even when there's, you know, there's times where I'm like, oh my gosh, I just, you know, want him to stay here, or, you know, my my next oldest, she's a senior, and so she's going off to college. And I know there's a big— she wants to go to college in the UK. And I'm like, oh dear Lord, like, that terrifies me, right? But I'm like, hey, right? So I feel like the more I say this out loud, and I'm like, that sounds like a great idea, you know.

This is bringing up so much for me that, um, because what I hear from parents— I talk to a lot of parents of queer kids— and what I hear from them so much is, what can I do? I think a better question is, who can you be? Just by being your values and embodying your love, it's not everything. You need to do a lot. I mean, who are we kidding? You need to do a lot. But that, I think, is like 85%. Who can you be? Who do you want to be? What do you value? Go be your values. There's so— for so many of us, there's a huge disconnect as adults because we are often find ourselves in situations where we feel forced to wear multiple hats or wear different masks or, or, or, you know, participate in different roles. It's tough. I cannot— I can only imagine how tough it is and how it's compounded when you have children. Yet that's part of the mantle you take on as a parent, is to more fully step into your being, because that's going to be 10,000 times more powerful to your teenagers in particular than any word that you tell them. Who are you being?

Right. You are absolutely right. I mean, it is— they go through— they go from thinking that you walk on water, that you are the smartest, most beautiful human ever, and overnight you are literally the dumbest human ever. And, you know, you're embarrassing and you can't hug anymore. And probably not going to say goodnight half the time. And there's a lot of sass. There's a lot of that. And it doesn't matter if they're gay or straight, right? That's, that's just teenage behavior.

That's part of the individuation process. They're, they're in love with you literally on a biochemical level as little children. And it's important that that bond is severed so that they can step fully into adulthood. And the severing of that bond is really, really painful for everybody involved.

It is, it is, because it's a long process, you know. It's like a multi-step process, and it's not so good.

Like you said, they toggle back and forth. Some days then they come back to you and you get re— you get seduced back into this adoration, like, oh wow, they really do love me. And it's like, okay, well, in the next 5 minutes they're swearing at you.

So it's, you know, exactly right. Or giving— I love that the looks that I get from my daughters Yeah, they take my breath away sometimes. So, um, yeah, you have to have thick skin and just know that your job— and this has taken me a while to like be able to kind of calmly sit in— but my job is to prepare them to be free and to be their authentic who they are. Like, who— why be free, right?

So the reason it's so important what you— what you also said, be who authentically who they are, is because that's what's going to eradicate this epidemic of loneliness in gay men. You know, statistically, gay men are more likely to die in a state of persistent loneliness than any other portion of the population, including lesbians. And that's just an unfortunate reality. And so much of it is because we don't know how to be authentic authentic. We were never given those tools. It was never modeled for us. We were killed during the AIDS crisis. The people are literally gone. And so we don't have those mentors. Those of us that were left grew up with, you know, it's like trying to learn this stuff. We had to teach it to ourselves. There were no healthy role models in the media among our peers or any. So we don't have good writ large. We don't have good systems and practices of relatedness. So we need that. We crave that so much from our parents. To model that for us.

Having people like you who have survived all of this, and you're such an incredible role model, and you're speaking your truth, and you're speaking— you, you don't mince words, and you do give it straight. And I think that's really important because that's just being truthful. And I think that when you're really truthful, in a kind and loving way, that is the very best gift you can give to someone. And, and you, your generation is, you know, the generation that Connor and his generation are looking up to and are so blessed to have because you have blazed the trail, essentially.

Thank you for saying that.

Because like you said, I mean, so many before you are gone, right? So you didn't have that.

To be honest, unfortunately for Connor, so many of my peer group are struggling with the basics. But at least we're here and we're trying. That means Connor's generation is going to need extra love and care to fill in some of the gaps that we don't have the capacity, the ability to provide. So many of us are still tremendously, traumatically age delayed. And so, you know, we're doing the best that we can, but we definitely need, for the kids coming up, they're gonna need extra love.

That's good, good to know. And good to, you know, I think that's a really important point for everyone listening to know that. And, you know, for the kids who are listening to know that. And, and I think that it is so phenomenal that the work is being done, right? That, so that, that in and of itself is a good model to follow. Like, the work has to be done. It's hard. So even with that, even if the capacity isn't there yet, even if the, you know, emotional maturity isn't there, right? It's the Oh, okay. It's okay to work on this though. This is, this is a good thing, right? Instead of I need to be this one way, I'm supposed to act like this because I'm, you know, fill in the blank.

And as usual, the burden falls on women because frankly, men in general are just so far behind the personal growth and development, the relatedness expertise that women have been forced to, in many cases, learn and chosen to in other cases that women, I think, and especially in your listeners, I suspect there's a lot of mothers dragging fathers along. And if they're not, that's probably some sort of a blessing. So you have— you're dealing with children, if they're gay, if they identify as gay men, bi, pan men, then they have kind of a double whammy. They're dealing with all the trauma heaped on them by society that forces them into certain masculine roles, which is only compounded by homophobia and the bigotry of those still trying to eradicate us.

Mm-hmm.

And so women always seem to be the ones doing that heavy lifting. It's not fair. Um, thank God somebody's doing it, but that's the unfortunate reality is that I suspect a lot of the moms listening know this already intuitively, if they have not thought through it, that unfortunately a lot of the burden to fill in those gaps, to do the research, is going to land squarely in their laps. Absolutely.

Once again, spot on. It is very true. And, and, you know, and I, I feel like I am blessed because my husband has— he's open and he's willing. It's just really hard, you know, to the point of like the emotional connectedness. That's a lot more difficult. And and wanting to, you know, kind of work through that. So he's still at the place of like working through a lot of things.

As women, you can have curiosity and empathy for the masculine experience in this culture, which is so impaired. I mean, look, for all of the, the litany of harm foisted on the world by straight men, straight cis men, they are also harmed in that equation. They are so emotionally constrained. I mean, it's so— it's, it's almost a violent act for a man to shed a tear in this society. So he's, he's trying to— God love him, you know, he's— I'm sure he's trying as hard as he can. And you're over here like, okay, I'm glad you're opening up to this, but I need you over here. And that, unfortunately, for the next decade likely— I mean, things are changing, women are stepping into positions of power, and the equation shifting— but for the next decade, it's is going to unfortunately fall in the laps of women to, in, in many cases, to drag their, their husbands along this journey. And it's like, to inform them, like, dude, I'm real glad that you're no longer— that you're not, you know, uh, using homophobic language, or you're not beating the kid, or you're not doing this or that, but that's just nothing. I mean, that's just like table stakes, you know. You got to get in the game to see them as fully realized budding adults.

Right, exactly. As, as human beings.

Exactly. That's what we all want, regardless of our orientation of any kind or ethnicity or race. That's what we all want, complex human beings.

Right.

Stories that have been heard.

Right. Again, this is— this speaks to me just maybe being idealistic is probably the best word, but just why is this so hard? I say this all the time. Why is this so hard? Why can't we just see each other as human beings and just love each other and appreciate like how weird and different we are? Like, you know, it's kind of fun.

But yeah, you know, technology is evolving faster than our bodies and our culture can keep up. And our culture is evolving really quickly as well. There has been, and I say this as empathy to your audience, there has been nothing like the cultural shifts in the queer community that human history has ever recorded. The level of acceptance that has moved through worldwide global society for all sorts of reasons is monumental and mind-blowing. For instance, I literally never thought anybody would hire me for a job when I was growing up because I'm gay. I think about the consequences of that thought because it was literally true. I literally thought I would be a pro were I cast out of society. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I would have the legal right to get married, much less be married, which I am today. So when you carry those thoughts forward, there are great consequences attached to those. But also, the unintended consequences of all this social change feels like upheaval to many people that have never experienced it or thought of it. We live in a pluralistic society. Lots of people have never thought about these issues, and they deserve the grace the space, the generosity to come along with us and get on board as they show a propensity to love us.

That's lovely. I mean, and, and I think that is, that is an important way to look at it as well, which is kind of flipping the compassion, right? Yeah, because I think it's very easy to get in that space of feeling anger when it's, you know, you, um, or as a parent feeling that mama bear anger.

Perfectly. The limbic brain gets triggered. It's fight or flight. You go into mama bear mode, like you see red to protect your kids. And that's just human. And that's why we all need self-empathy and room to clean up after our messes and the power of curiosity, self-reflection, and go like, oh wow, that wasn't my best moment. I guess I need to go 'You know, clean up that what I said to the principal or how I yelled at that other kid's mother. I need to go clean that up and own that.' But that, you know, modeling that for your children is also a gift. Your children do not want or expect perfection.

Thank goodness.

Yeah, exactly. So your limbic brain gets triggered and it just takes over, and it's perfectly normal and human. And just give yourself a break. You know what I mean? That will never not be the case. That's just part of being in a human body. And so it's just a matter of having this self-reflective practices built into your daily routine that give you the space to evaluate what happened over the course of the day and think, wow, I did a really good job there. Or like, ooh, that wasn't so great. And then to figure out what to do with that.

Right. You are speaking my language. Spay. I love it. Self-reflection is all stuff that I just love. And probably you, like, like me, this has been something that, you know, we've, we've learned in the last decade or two that we have just embraced and loved, right?

I did not come out of the womb like this. I had to have my life completely fall apart and start from scratch and be like, okay, well, I guess I have a blank slate now. Who do I want to be? And just build it from scratch.

Right, exactly. Well, it's funny because, you know, before, you know, 10 years ago, I still remember this conversation that I had with a friend on the phone. And, and at that point in my life, I was like just giving myself away to volunteer work all the time, and that's all I did. And I was ridiculous and stressful. Not the volunteer work isn't great, but it had gotten to that like unhealthy point. And, and like constantly twisting myself in knots for, you know, my family and for friends and, you know, you know, what you do when you're not fully aware of self. And her— for saying to her, I think I'm going to write a book that's called Who Should I Be Today? You know, because I felt like that's— I mean, that's truly how I felt my life was, like, okay, well, who does everybody want me to be today? Because that's who I'll be. I know I'm not alone in that. There are, you know, millions of us who feel that way, right?

And so many of us are hiding because for whatever reason we don't allow ourselves or think we can't afford, and maybe it's true, to display that level of vulnerability to the world or even to, you know, even to friends. I mean, just depending upon our level of inner strength and awareness and what we think we can afford and endure, so many of us just kind of slap a smile on it.

Very true. It is very true. I think you reach a point where you just can't live like that anymore.

Exactly.

You just need to be authentic. You want to be—

not affordable to live that way a moment longer. You just reach that point and that's when change happens for most of us anyway. That's what it was for me.

Well, me as well. Me as well. So, um, see, I told you we would totally get off on another tangent here. It's way too much fun. Um, but I will shift back because I have— I do have— there's a couple of things that I really want to touch on with you. Um, So making a huge shift here, but this is something that I have been dying to talk about and I really wanted Connor to talk about, but he was a little bit nervous about like really addressing it head on. But you talk about hookup apps and disposable relationships and, and all of that, you know, finding genuine love, real love, true companionship. So I really want to talk about this because this is something that, first of all, the apps and the disposable relationships is a huge thing. And I think that it came to me as such a shock. Yeah. I wasn't sure how to handle it, and I know there's so many parents out there that either are, you know, experiencing the same thing or have no idea that this is coming. And I think it's rather inevitable, especially if you have a child who is gay or bisexual. I remember, you know, one of Connor's a few therapists ago said to me, um, I was asking him about this and, and he said, well, you know, Heather Hester, he was like, in a heterosexual relationship, who is the one who always says no? And I was like, well, the girl, right? And, and he's like, yeah, so in a gay relationship, who's saying no? The mom. And I was like, oh my I love it. Oh, this is like hurting my body right now. And I was like, well, thank you for these, uh, like between the eyes perspective on that. You know, I just kind of, because I was trying to figure it out, like how do I, you know, at that time Connor was like 17, right?

So that's a whole different, yeah, right.

This is kind of where You know, obviously there's the age thing, which there's the age thing.

The law.

The law. Mm-hmm. I still have a whole list of names I carry in my wallet. But I just wonder how, if you know, if you could give just your wisdom on this, because I think it would be really meaningful.

Um, your kids are going to have sex, get over it. So that's part of it. And they're going to have sex that you may not understand or have ever heard of or ever wanted. Who cares? You don't get to weigh in on that. Um, when they're— I'm talking about obviously when they're adults. Um, sex is intrinsically part of the gay culture, and we could talk about that for hours. What I would recommend is that parents who are readers read up on gay history because you will learn so much about gay culture and identity and our ways of being, even day to day, just through, just through reading a, you know, a rudimentary cursory study of gay history. So for instance, real quick, when it was illegal for gay people to congregate, which was just basically gentle genocide Mm-hmm. Um, we would meet for furtive sexual encounters in the parks, in the bathrooms, in the back of— backs of trucks. And straight people can have all the judgments they want to about it. I don't want to hear it. I don't really care, because really there was no space for us to exist, right? Now think about that dynamic in the 1950s and earlier, carried forth in the generation since. The laws have changed in almost everywhere in the world, which is wonderful and beautiful and to be celebrated, but we still carry that baggage, that cultural baggage with us. So not only do we have the masculine-feminine dialectic dynamic that you described earlier, where, you know, who is going to be chased and who is going to be chased, who's going to be ravished and who's going to do the ravishing— not only do we carry that and have our own cultural confusion around that. But we also have all of the harm from our ancestors culturally that we carry with us today. So that then adapted into a cruising behavior. There then were bathhouses where we could go en masse to release this pent-up desire, this pent-up, the sexual urge, which was inhibited, constrained, and often illegal in other facets of our life. Would just explode on the weekends and we would go and have as much sex as we could. Lots of straight people don't have this dynamic in their lives. It's totally foreign to them. Um, and so that's why, cut to today, we have things like hookup apps where, you know, you spend 5 minutes on Grindr and you can see the worst of us, frankly. The most racist behavior in our community, the most misogynistic behavior in our community, the most exhibitionist from a standpoint of an alienating transactional mentality where we're not, you know, it's one thing to be sex positive if that's in alignment with who you truly are, having lots of anonymous sex. I have no judgments about that. But if it's not part of your alignment, if it is a trauma response, then there's probably more loving states of being that you could embody, a different energy that you could exude. And so here's my take on hookup apps. Is that I'm agnostic of the platform when it comes to finding love. The key is the energy that you bring more than the things that you do. Just like when we were talking earlier in the conversation, what can parents do? No, focus on who can you be. The same is true with gay people of age finding love. Who are you? Who can you be? Be authentically yourself. Go engage in activities where you can shine that light as brightly as possible, thereby attracting people who see the real you. Follow the energy and, um, you know, let love flourish from there. So whether it's an app or it's in person or it's a website matters very little, um, from that regard. Now, if you do use apps, you have to understand that they are easy, convenient spaces for the worst of our behaviors. And the least— maybe worst is a little loaded— maybe the least evolved, the least aware of our behaviors. And so when you wade into those spaces as a gay person, you just have to understand that you might have a lot of, um, you might have to weed a lot of noise out, separate the signal from the noise, and you might have to be really guarded about what information you share and who you are and who you trust. And because there is a lot of predators out there, there's a lot of, you know, so in that regard, the spaces are very different. But in terms of your success, in terms of your ability to find love, it matters very little the mode in which it happens. It's much more about who you are in the moment and allowing the true exchange of energy to happen without without an agenda.

And I think that's, that's really important, and that's something that can be, you know, practicing that can start early, right? Um, and really kind of, you know, figuring out who that is. Who—

yeah, like, if you're a parent and you have a kid who's, say, 15 or 16, it's like, okay, you should not be on Grindr. You know, it's, it's, it's against their policies, their platforms. And your kids are likely sneaking on all sorts of places where you don't want them to be. And I, I can only imagine how challenging it is for parents these days to manage all these technologies. I mean, it's— I bet it's overwhelming for a lot of parents. The key is to start sooner in training them in their own personal dignity, not through the words that you say, but the energy that you exude, the state of being you embody, how you occur in the world? Do you walk through the world with personal dignity and diversity? Do you cultivate a panoply, a pluralistic set of friends and loved ones? Or are you, um, telling people one thing and doing another? You know, if you start with Grindr, you got problems already. If you, if you're starting the conversation with Grindr, it's too late, and it's going to be a lot of cleanup work to do. And probably the best thing is to hire a paid professional like a therapist who can help you navigate through that process as a family.

Yes, what you said, that is 100% correct. And, and this is exactly why I wanted to bring this up, because, um, you're absolutely right. You— if that is when you are figuring things out and your kid is on Grindr, it would help you. I mean, there's, there's nothing you can do alone. You need help. You need professional help to help to figure that out. Yes.

Some of these boundaries have to be put in place regardless of sexual orientation for their own protection. I mean, you're charged with their protection first and foremost. So some places you have to find the art of where you stand firm, where you relent, where you do research. There's an art to that. Based on your belief system as a parent and as a family, your culture, and you have to find your own way. But don't hesitate, please, to reach for subject matter experts as needed. You don't have to do this alone. In fact, you probably can't.

No, no. And thank you for saying that and reiterating that, because I do say that a lot. And I also just, I think one of the things, you know, at least that we saw, and one of the reasons this happened because, you know, to your point of having boundaries and rules, we had a lot of rules and a lot of boundaries. And maybe on the other end, right, where, you know, Connor felt like he needed to be a certain person a certain way, right? There was this expectation.

And, and, you know, the only thing I want to chime in there is I want to make sure you give yourself enough empathy that he would have done a certain amount of that regardless of the level of constraints you imposed upon him. Maybe some of that was fault, maybe some of that was tone deaf. I wasn't there, I don't know. But I hope you give yourself empathy as a family that some of that's just individuation, regardless of his sexual orientation, regardless of anything he experienced.

Yes, I think you're absolutely— I mean, I know that you're right. And, you know, after the span of time, I do, you know, there was, there was a a decent amount of time that I was like, oh my gosh, what have we done?

Oh my gosh, I'm horrible. Oh yeah, sure.

I mean, yes. And, um, but now I guess I just say that out loud to everyone so that you're not thinking in your head, oh well, my kid's a rule follower and yeah, gay, or yeah, beware.

Yeah, because there's all sorts of, there's all sorts of things your kid's doing that you know nothing about, regardless of whatever, regardless of how wonderful you think that relationship might be.

Correct.

It's the tip of the iceberg. They are complex individual humans, even if they're in the body of a 13-year-old.

Yep. And they, they will always be 5 steps ahead of us with technology, no matter how hard we try.

Yeah.

Right?

Well, give yourself a break.

Yeah, right, exactly. You know, and I— so I bring this up and I wanted you to really expand on it more so everyone is aware. And, you know, and it's just, you know, information to keep in your pocket and keep— you know, it's just one of those things that you're like, oh, okay, I need to— yeah.

And it's tough because there are predators out there. There really are.

And it's tough.

To account for the full range of, of human behavior. And I'm sure it can feel overwhelming. You're not going to be able to protect them from everything. That's why it's so important to empower them, to continually educate yourself and share that knowledge and wisdom and insight as a family with one another.

Mm-hmm. You are absolutely right. Oh, absolutely right. Oh my goodness. Well, I want to shift a little bit again, um, to talking about your book because it is beautiful. And, um, I will, I will put a link in, in my show notes as well, but it is called A Gay Man's Guide to Life. And everyone, it is so beautifully written and just honest, and, um, you really share, I mean, all of your experience and all of your humanness. And, um, and I think that's, you know, what makes it so, um, easy to connect with everyone. I mean, again, I'm a straight woman and I connected with a ton of it in there. And I know you write it right at the beginning, you're like, hey, this is, you know, I'm a gay man writing for gay men. I'm telling you that there's stuff for everyone in there. It's awesome.

I am so glad you said that. I did a subtle thing when I was naming the book. I did not call it A Guide to Life for Gay Men. I called it A Gay Man's Guide to Life. So it's written through the lens of my experience and the unapologetic use of our culture, which is separate and distinct from straight culture, so I could speak directly in shorthand to other members of my community. But certainly the concepts in there are kitchen table wisdom that anybody from any walk of life could utilize.

Part of that is maybe what I connected with in that it was really helpful. You talked about, you know, reading basic gay history. Part of it was just helpful for me to understand and to understand what it's like to be, you know, obviously I could never fully understand, but, you know, it just gave me so, so much more, more understanding of what it's like to be a gay man and things that are very specific to being a gay man as opposed to being, you know, a lesbian woman or bisexual, right? I mean, all very different experiences. I would love if you could share what inspired you to write it now. I—

my life fell apart over 20 years ago, just over 20 years ago, and part of my journey was the 12 steps. And that's where I found my voice, sitting in those rooms Taking down my masks for the very first time in my life was a thrilling experience, and I knew I would be forever changed. As part of that process, you tell your story. That's, that's, you know, just part of the process for any 12-step program, regardless of whether it's drugs, alcohol, sex addiction, whatever. I had people all along the way telling me, hey, you got to write this stuff down. It's so amazing. It'll help so many people. And I just— it did not feel right. And so I procrastinated for decades because I did not want to monetize my memoir in a way that felt like I was prostituting my pain. So I was working with a life coach a couple years ago who helped me flip the script and realize that if I put the reader in the center, made the reader the hero, then I could bypass that kind of ick factor I was having around just exposing all my wounds for the sake of getting raw and real. And as soon as I did that, as soon as I made it about the reader and just used my experience as context, then the whole project opened up for me and the process went very fast.

That is awesome. And was it helpful?

Oh yeah, definitely. Um, I've been telling my story for years, so, you know, everybody wants to know because it's all out there in black and white. So everybody wants to know, is that like overexposing or anything? And I'm actually— it doesn't feel that way. It feels— that feels a little more surreal, like when I meet people that are— that I don't know and they know this or that about me and they reflect that back to me. I'm like, oh wow, yeah, I guess that I put that in the book. Oops. It's just a little bit, you know, I've been doing it so long that does not feel overexposing. The main thing is it's just so thrilling to get letters literally from all over the world of people who had been suffering in silence coming out of the closet in 2020 and now 2021 in their 70s, their 80s. From all different countries, um, who have all sorts of different experiences. It is so humbling and moving. That has been the greatest gift.

I love that. I love that so much. And see, that's— I, I'm glad that you found a way to flip that so you were able to share that, because That's so powerful, telling your story so others feel like, oh, I can do this, right? Like, it just— you just gave millions of people permission to be their authentic self.

I just wanted to be the really mean big brother, maybe the family that they never had, and to give them a kick in the rear to get out there, get in the game, start taking up space, for God's sakes. To stop slinking in the shadows, to be who they truly are and let their light shine bright, maybe for the very first time. I wanted to be that for them. I never had it and I wanted it to be that for them. And so I was not really concerned about the cost. And it turns out happily that it's really been negligible. It's really been just a joy.

Well, I think when you do things from that place of doing good, that, you know, that's what you're putting out there, right? That's what you're going to get back. So I'm so happy. I'm just— I'm thrilled to hear that's how it hit and how it's hitting. And I was just kind of curious, you know, kind of what made you finally decide to do it. But I will tell you, there were a couple of quotes that I really loved. I mean, there were a ton of them, but we don't have that much time. I'm just gonna read a couple of them. I printed out a bunch, and because I think these will specifically resonate with, you know, the younger, you know, generation and parents of, you know, the adolescents, teenagers, young adults. So the first one was, I only ever longed to be loved because to be loved was to belong, and to belong was to be real. But our society is brutal and our culture is primitive, so I spent my time living the lives of others. And that one kind of— it didn't in the book move to it, but this is the other one that I just— these two really tied together for me. Um, I was just too tender-hearted for this world, and try as I might, I simply could not pass in a misogynistic society. My femininity betrayed me. It wasn't just that I was homosexual at that time. There were no words for what I was— a beautiful blend of masculine and feminine traits that confounded most people I encountered. And that confusion often led to conflict, rejection, harassment, or even violence. It was not long before I succumbed to despair and depression. I retreated into an entitlement rage that exacerbated my character defects and led me to dark places. And you go on to talk about really powerful things, but I— that That really resonated with me because I think that is still true today. And I'm just wondering, goodness, so many things. I mean, I think that will really, really resonate with everyone listening. And now as you're sitting where you're sitting and everything you've, you've gone through, what advice would you give to your 15-year-old self, your 20-year-old self, your 25-year-old self?

So one thing I want to say, and I'm going to answer your question, one thing I want to say first is that, um, I've had one of the unusual experiences I've had with this book is it getting shared with people that I never thought would read it. And so if you're a parent listening to this podcast, I encourage you to read the book prior to giving it to a child because it was intended to be written— I mean, I wrote it intended to be read by adults. And so there are many kids out there that, you know, are pretty sophisticated, and I leave that to parents to make that decision. But please read it first because it's not a children's book. It's not a how to come out and be happy book. It's pretty raw, pretty real.

I'm glad you said that. Yes, absolutely. I second that.

Yeah.

So I just want to give that disclaimer out there. But, um, and then you can excerpt it yourself and share parts with your kid or share the whole book. You know, that's, that's up to you, but just, you know, do your due diligence. Okay. So what I would tell myself when I was 15, 20, 25 is that, um, especially, um, on the younger side of that is that I don't have to try so hard. That, you know, you don't have to, you don't have to win everybody over. You can just be who you are, and that is innately beautiful. You can afford to play. You can, you have the luxury of laughter, even though you may not realize it, even though everything might feel like a battle because you are carrying a weight and fighting the world. You can set down your sword and take off your armor and grant yourself the space to be a kid, even if you're exploring that energy as an adult or a young adult. And that's really what I missed out on, is that playful, youthful sense of spontaneity and indiscretion and carefree, because I was busy fighting the world and fighting for my survival. Because for me, it wasn't just the gay stuff, by the way. That's the other thing your listeners should know, is that it Right. Homeboy was just kind of the tip of the iceberg when I was growing up. It was all sorts of different flavors of abuse and trauma. So maybe I'm a little bit unique in that, but I was doing a lot of fighting and so I missed out on the laughter. And that's what I'm trying to go to pick up now is it's okay to be silly. It's not a character defect. It's not a flaw. It's actually the high— you know, play is actually the highest form of learning. And art is at the core of our humanity. So to me, engaging in those expressions, those self-expressions, I wish I would have. And what I would tell myself is, you have the space to go and practice that, to learn that. And I wish I would have known that then.

That is really, really important, really valuable lessons. And I Thank you. I was really curious what you would say.

Because you know how tough I can be. You've read the book. And so it's like—

I was like, oh, he might yell, but that's okay.

So it's like, you know how tough I can be. So I have an overexuberance of that energy. And it's like, I really enjoy embodying different spaces, occupying different spheres now.

Yes, well, that definitely comes through very much so. Your, uh, the ability or the, the comfort in your skin is, is very clear and beautiful. So I am so glad you have shared that. And I, I think that, um, you know, hitting on the play and the, the art is really quite amazing. I have to— I mean, I have to say, because I think I've just found— and I, you know, I'd love to hear from all of the listeners to see if they have found this too. But specifically in this past year with, you know, being everything with COVID and lockdown and remote schooling and all of this, all of my kids, and they're all very, very different and obviously different ages too, in their darkest moments during this time, that has been their go-to is some form of art, whether it has been writing music painting a wall, doing some kind of art, artful makeup, um, you know, all different forms of art, but art is at the core of our being.

I mean, anthropologists know they found humans when they find art.

That is amazing. I didn't know that. See, I love this. I always learned something. But it is, I think it is also quite, um, there is something about it that is very grounding and, um, centering. I love that you shared that, and that's your teaching point. That is fantastic. That is what I have for you today. Is there anything else that you'd like to share or offer up?

Yeah, um, I believe that we're all in this together and that if each of us took a little bit less, we would all have so much more, and that there is no greater wisdom than kindness.

Wow.

I hope you all enjoyed this amazing interview today. And just really learned a lot from Britt and our exchange. Like I said, his book will be linked in the show notes. Please do take some time to read it. It is well worth your time. It is beautifully written, it is engaging, and you will learn so much. I also want to remind you that my upcoming course, Learning to Just Breathe, will be opening on February 7th for registration. So keep an eye out for emails, on social media, and the like. Get on the waitlist and sign up. It is going to be filled with just a ton of really helpful information. Thank you for listening today, and until next time, remember that you are not alone.

Thanks so much for joining Heather today. Remember to just breathe. Take a few minutes every day to calm and center yourself. Reach out anytime with ideas, questions, or feedback. Please rate and review Just Breathe on your favorite platform. Subscribe to Heather website www.chrysalismama.com to receive her monthly newsletter and stay informed. Join the private Just Breathe Facebook community to chat with other parents and allies, and share with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone.