#38 | Cultivating Mindful Resilience: Guidance for Parents & LGBTQ Teens

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Welcome to Just Breathe: Parenting Your LGBTQ Teen, the podcast transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child. Filled with awesome guests, practical strategies, and moving stories, host Heather Hester always makes you feel like you're having a cozy chat. Wherever you are on this journey, right now, in this moment in time, You are not alone. And here is Heather for this week's amazing episode.

Welcome to Just Breathe. My guest today is Andrew Jordan Nance. Andrew is the founder of Mindful Arts San Francisco, whose mission is to provide literary and arts-based mindfulness instruction to youth at underserved San Francisco schools. He has been an educator for over 25 years and is the author of 4 mindfulness books. This is an important and really useful topic that we haven't discussed yet on this show. So without further ado, here is Andrew. So Andrew, I'm so happy to have you here with us today. And this is a topic that I really haven't touched on other than talking about it more in an anecdotal sense or saying this is a good thing for you to do, right, but not going into a lot of detail. So I'm really excited for you to share your— what you do with mindfulness and your experience with mindfulness. And really, why don't we start with just How did you get into this field and why is this such an important work for you?

Right. Well, thank you for having me, first of all. And I started into mindfulness around 6 years ago. I had been running a theater school in San Francisco called the New Conservatory Theater Center. And I had my degrees from New York University at their Tisch School of the Arts program. Yay! Yay, Tisch! And I just loved the career that I had. I got to act all the time. I got to direct all the time. I got to produce. I got to run the school. I got to teach. But after my mom passed away, gosh, I think it's 8 years ago now. So it's not 6, it's like, it's like 7 then that I started getting into mindfulness. But my mom passed away and I just felt like, gosh, life is short. And I wanted a new chapter and I didn't know what that was. So I really just, you know, I know it was really terrifying to say, I don't know, but I want to leave my job. So I told our executive director that I was going to leave in 6 months. So anyway, so I left and I eventually found a program called the Greater Good Science Center, which is an amazing— yeah, have you heard of them?

Yes, I have. They are so amazing.

They're terrific. They've got great online content and historically they have these wonderful week-long symposiums in Berkeley and you, you, it's a sleepaway camp basically for teachers and you go for hikings up in the Berkeley Hills and do stuff outside and go to lectures and whatnot. And one of the things they did was they brought in Mindful Schools, which is where I eventually got most of my training. And that's a great online resource. They've been online for years. Wow. I highly recommend them if you're interested in mindfulness training. It's not just for teachers. There's a mindfulness fundamentals course. So parents, that would be It would be such a gift to yourself to have a mindfulness practice, especially if you're going through a challenging time with a child or a teenager. It's just a real amazing gift to be able to check in with ourselves so we don't get pulled down any rabbit holes or emotional vortexes that teenagers are so good at doing to us. Yes. Right?

Yes, they are.

Yeah. So they started doing these mindful games with us and I started watching these games and I said, wait a minute, these are the games I did in theater school back at NYU and before that. And so I realized that theater training and mindfulness training are extremely similar. They both— Yeah, it's really— It was kind of like this light bulb moment for me too. They both invite the participants to be present. They both invite the participants to check in with their minds, hearts, and their bodies so they can fully connect with the people that they're with, especially like on stage. And Shakespeare said, "All the world's a stage." That's right. Right? And you know, when you start thinking about the future, like, oh, when I get home, I have to do laundry. You know, if you're on stage with someone, you can't be thinking about the future or, or the past or the fact that there might be a reviewer in the audience or your parent is in the audience or whatever. You know, that's when things go off the rails. So, and that's with mindfulness too. You want to just connect, connect, connect to the mind, the heart, and the body. Where I say they diverge is with theatre, we want to be as reactive as possible, right? Like if you and I are on stage together, something exciting has to happen, right? You know?

Right.

Walks out, one of us, you know, throws something or pulls out a pistol or a, you know, a saber or whatever. And, you know, the audience goes wild, but, you know, in the home, you don't want any of those things to happen, right? You're like, let's just sit down on the couch and talk about this. And that's a more mindful approach. So, so with mindfulness, we get to respond wisely to a situation. And on stage, we get to react blindly, you know, at least it appears that way. Of course, there's all sorts of rehearsals involved, but you don't want anything to go too off the rails either. So, yes. So that was this big aha moment for me. And I wound up just falling in love with mindfulness training. And it just— I really sort of embodied it pretty quickly. Of course, I'm not perfect. I'm mindless.

You're human.

Right. I'm mindless many times a day. But I'm also mindful throughout the day, too, which is a skill that you know, all of us can develop the more we practice, and that's why practicing is such an important point here, right?

Well, and that's why it's called a mindful practice, right? Yeah, kind of like a meditation practice or a yoga practice. It's always practice. Yeah, yeah, I love—

they, they say that, you know, if you can have these little light bulb moments throughout your day, you know, it'll just be more easeful for everyone. And the point is to just keep noticing, oh, this is an opportunity to check in with my breath and my body and my heart. You know, transitions are really important time to do that. You know, when you're walking in the door, you know, just take a breath, wiggle your toes. When you're Brushing your teeth. There are all these little micro moments that we can remember to check in with ourselves throughout the day. And it's hard to do, but it's worth it. So I don't know if I quite finished that point, but eventually I started running a program. I was the founder of this program called Mindful Art San Francisco. And it was just me at the beginning teaching mindfulness to pre-K all the way up to 8th grade. And I was going to schools all over San Francisco and just volunteering, quite frankly. And then people started hearing about it and wanted to be a part of it in some way. So I said, why don't you be my teaching assistant for a while? And then if you want, you can wind up having your own classes. And that's basically what happened over the next couple of years. And now we have 40 volunteers in over 60 classrooms seeing 1,000 kids a week.

Oh my gosh.

I know, it's really cool. Pre-K, some middle school, but mostly pre-K to 5th. And it's just a really great gift. We actually had to hire a program coordinator so they place everyone. And we're actually looking currently for a new one because, uh, the woman that we hired who was amazing and single-handedly grew the program, uh, is finishing up her thesis and she just feels like she can't do, uh, both well.

So sure, that, that is a lot. That is a lot. Oh my goodness.

Anyone out there is interested, uh, it's, uh, it's a San Francisco position, but, uh, It's an exciting program that's really growing, and I see it just continuing to grow and grow and grow and evolve as well.

Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it's a tool and a gift. Yeah. And learning it at such a young age, right? Then it just becomes part of you.

It's habit. And I always say to myself and to my friends, you know, we're all just a collection of habits and some of them no longer work for us and some of them do. And we just have to keep assessing, you know, how's this working? You know, even if we like, we run 3 times a week, you know, that's a great habit. But when, you know, but when your knee's bad and, you know, and it's not a good idea anymore, we have to be able to check in with ourselves and, you know, It's time to take up swimming or whatever. But a lot of us just do what we do and we don't check back with ourselves. And that's what I love about mindfulness is it gives us the permission to keep checking in and saying, huh, this used to really benefit me and now it doesn't.

Right. And I think that is such a key word, the permission. And taking the time to give ourselves that permission to really check in. I think this is something that is very new to me as well, just in the past 6 or so years. And every time I realize, oh, I have, I have choices.

That's right.

And what is— what's serving me well and helping me serve others well? And what is not anymore?

Right.

And, and giving my permission— myself permission to let go of those things, right? And then be open to what else might be coming. And so, and it is— I find it so fascinating that for so long I just kind of was, and I think that this is true for most people, right? We just kind of go and we don't stop to really check in and notice, hmm, what's going on around me.

Right. That's right. And, and that, that, um, that habitual response to be reactive, especially with our kids, uh, it's just really easy to go there. And I think, I think if we can just listen more, and that's also, I think, a mindfulness practice is just listening. You know, it's a, they say it's a noticing practice. Part of noticing is listening, right? And I think if we sort of talk less with our teens and listen more and ask questions, I think that dynamic would really shift really quickly. You know, I think we're so interested in fixing kids and it's just, it just doesn't work, does it? Because, you know, we all have had spouses or whatever, and you can't fix them. You know, as much as we thought we could in the beginning, we realized, you know what, we just have to find some common ground, find some understanding and some compassion and forgiveness and, and just, you know, be a little kinder to ourselves and to them.

So absolutely. I mean, you hit the nail on the head across the board, whether it is with your, your child or your spouse. It is such a knee-jerk reaction when a crisis or a problem comes up that you just want to fix it. Yeah, it's going to fix— I want you to feel better. I want to fix it. Right. And 9 times out of 10, the other person doesn't want it fixed. They just want to be heard. And that is such a powerful thing for parents especially to learn. But when you learn that as a parent in relation to your child, that translates into all your relationships. Yeah.

What I, what I tell teachers is that you know, in order for a mindfulness practice to work in a classroom, the teacher really has to try to embody it because there's just— because otherwise you're just faking it, you know. So if a teacher is reactive and, you know, whatnot in a classroom, that's not mindfulness. So they really have to sort of put that oxygen mask on first so that they can model the behavior. Because that's part of it too, is that we've all been around those unflappable teachers or people that you just think, gosh, when I grow up, I want to be like them.

Right.

And I'm that way a lot of the time. But I have friends that I think, wow, whatever they're doing is really working because they just seem so cool, calm, and collected all the time. And so I think kids really need to witness that as well. And I also think, like you mentioned on this a little bit, I really feel like if we can get more comfortable with our own uncomfortability, we're liberated. We're— because the body freaks out when it senses dis-ease or disharmony, uncomfortability. And we— there's this great expression like the body is sort of like the elephant and the mind is the rider. And the body really can take over. You know, when you're feeling— when we're feeling angry or sad, you know, we literally are angry, right? We are sad.

Right.

And we just are consumed by it. And what mindfulness allows us to do is notice that anger or sadness or whatever the big emotion is, is arising. But we don't have to become anger. We don't have to become sad. We can notice the sadness and be sort of the nurturing parent to the sadness, which is in our bodies. Another way to say it is the body is that that beautiful child that you love, and the mind at its best is the nurturing parent. And so we can notice when our bodies are freaking out or having a big emotion, we can be skillful with what we do with that. And, and what happens is the child in, in, in our lives, whether it's in a classroom or in our homes, has an uncomfortable emotion, a big emotion, And of course, we, because we're empathic towards those beings, we feel that and we feel uncomfortable and we want to get rid of that uncomfortability. So we try to, like you were saying, fix, fix, fix. And really the goal and the invitation in mindfulness is to turn towards the uncomfortability and say, It's okay. It's okay. We're, we're going to be with this. We're just going to notice. We're just going to listen to what the body, either my body or your body has to say. Um, and we're going to do this together. Um, and I, I just love that, that, that, you know, we can treat ourselves like, like our best friends, you know, because, you know, often when we're, when we're uncomfortable, we just were like, oh, I'm just going to go for a run or I'm just going to watch television or eat or drink or, you know, whatever. And the invitation again is to turn towards it and go, okay, wow, you are really feeling, you're feeling something really uncomfortable. And, you know, and we, and I'm going to, I'm going to be with you during this discomfort.

Right, right. Because I think to that point, what we do is we try to block it.

Right.

Right. We try to stop it or we shut it down or instead of sitting through it.

That's right.

Yeah.

And I was going to, I was going to say, uh, I also feel like we've really done a disservice to ourselves by thinking that happy is the norm. Do you know what I mean?

Like, yes.

Imagine, imagine, you know, 200, 300, 500 years ago. Was everyone walking around happy all the time? No, they had, they had survival stuff that they were always dealing with, probably 24/7, you know, too cold, too hot, animals, tribes, you know, whatever. That is not the human condition. Happiness is But what is the human condition is every single emotion that we feel. And I think if we can learn to ride the waves of the emotions that come and go throughout the day with some skill, that's what we're looking for. Not to flatline our lives. That is not a mindful life, you know, to just be with anything that arises, whether it's inward or outward, like our kids, right? That is the goal. Um, not so like, can everyone just be happy all the time so I don't have to have a big emotion? That's not what we're looking for.

Absolutely, absolutely. I think one of the, you know, most interesting and helpful things that Connor you know, learned several years ago, and we, we have all in turn embraced, is the, the whole idea of impermanence. And that this is really uncomfortable right now, or this is really awesome right now.

Thanks.

It's not always going to be like that, and that's okay. That's right. And being okay with that. And I think especially when things are really hard, knowing this is for now.

Yeah.

And I can sit through this. And then it'll be— I don't want to say okay, but I don't like that word, but it will, it will move into something else. And I can, I can do this. I think it's the I can do this. And Yeah.

Can I do just this moment?

Right.

A mindful thought is because I think what happens, you know, like if we're feeling miserable, the body doesn't really have the cognizance to say, oh, but, you know, tomorrow you'll feel better. You know, it just says, I feel the body just whatever experiences that it feels miserable and it's going to always feel miserable. Right. So we have to wake up enough to go, you know, you're— yes, you feel miserable right now, or there's a lot of discomfort in the body right now, but it's going to be— it's going to be different in an hour, right? Or a day or 2 days. And sometimes we have to sit with discomfort, like grief. You know, sometimes we have to sit with that discomfort for months, you know. And yet, if we look back on the grieving process, you can see the metamorphosis that happens throughout, you know.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think especially with something like grief, just noticing it and allowing it, right? Is— that's huge because it is, it's hard, it's painful, it's, um, there's nothing fun about it, right?

And, but, and, and I, and I, for myself, I, I feel like there was a certain— I haven't lost anyone recently, my mom, I think, well, not anyone deeply close to me, um, but there's a certain gentleness that I think we give ourselves, or myself, with grief. You know, it's not like, uh, why am I feeling this way? You know, it's like we're a little more tender with grief than any other big emotion, I think.

Yes, I think you're absolutely right. Yes.

But, but when you're— but you know, when you're frustrated or sad or whatever, you're like, oh brother, why am I feeling this way? You know, I should just be better and I should just let this go. And I really don't like the term letting go. I really think just letting it be is really, really an important semantic switch.

I like that. Yeah. Letting it be.

Yeah. Because letting it go, it's like saying a part of you should walk away from from yourself, you know, like, just go away. Just, I'm gonna let this emotion go away. You know, I'm gonna let it go. But that's like saying to a child, be gone. I don't want you here. You know?

Right.

And that's just not, that doesn't feel good to say, I'm just gonna let this emotion go.

I feel like that's, that's, I like that. Letting it be. And I think that's, you know, I don't know about you, but I tend to visualize things a lot, and that's a much easier visual. Like, you're here and I'm just okay with it. I've, you know, whatever it is, I've worked through it, I'm working through it, I'm sitting with it. Wherever you are with that. That's— thank you. That's a really, really— that's so helpful. Goodness.

Oh, good. Because I feel like for me, there's a 9-year-old boy that just wants to be protected and loved and cared for. And so I never want him to say, "Get out of here." You know, it's just— it'd just be a mean thing to do. You know, I think all of us could say, "Yeah, my you know, we have an inner child and, you know, sometimes they're 4, sometimes they're 3, sometimes they're 10, you know. Um, but we never want to say hit the road, right? It's just not okay.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. That is, you know, that is— it's very wise. I like that so much because I think, you know, we spend a lot of time trying to, you know, work through things and then let them go, right? When perhaps the reality is those things will always be a part of us. It's just the way we interact with them or view them. And yeah, that's a lot easier to do.

That's right. What's that expression? What we resist persists.

Yes.

And that's sort of what we're talking about here is just that feeling of just everything has to be okay because it's part of us. And, you know, just something silly that happened to me within my mindfulness practice is my dog used to bark or does bark at the door. You might have heard him bark for a minute. Every time the doorbell rang, and it's a silly story, but, um, and I would just feel my blood pressure go and I would get hot and my shoulders would get tall, you know, raised. And, um, and then one day I was at someone's house and they had the same doorbell as us and the doorbell rang, but there was no dog in the house because it was at a different house. But everything happened. My face flushed, my, I mean, I didn't yell or say, Diego, stop it. I didn't go that far, but, and I just realized, wow, that's all me. You know, it was just like this Pavlovian response. So ever since then, I've just been able to notice the sensations of heat and the tension in my fists and whatever. And so when the doorbell rings, I just kind of do this mindful check-in and it's a whole other experience. I feel compassion for him because he's just trying to protect the house, you know, he's not trying to, you know, annoy me or be mean.

Right.

You know, and it was just this really lovely full circle moment where I was able to notice that the body was trying to hijack me because it felt unsafe.. And by being that nurturing parent to the child that is the body, um, I just had a whole different experience around, um, reactivity, uh, as opposed to responsiveness. So, so it was, it was a real light bulb moment for me that's really percolated into many different parts of my life, including my, my relationship with my husband, um, all sorts of things, you know. Um, And also, I think, sort of rambling here, but also just, you know, emotions need to be let go of, or not let go of, but need to be checked in on. So they don't wind up building up in our bodies throughout the day. I don't know if, I'm sure you've had that experience where, you know, you say something that's snippier than you'd like and you realize, oh, this isn't even about this. This is about the fact that I was in traffic for 2 hours. Or, for sure, you know, and it's like we don't tend to our bodies enough throughout the day. I, I often feel like we, you know, we should, you know, basically, uh, you know, give ourselves like neck massages and, and body, you know, shoulder massages and things like that throughout the day. Oh, and another thing that I— I'm totally rambling, so I apologize.

I love it. No, it's great.

One thing I learned in theater school is that we as humans hold a lot of tension in our jaws. So I don't know about you, but if you've ever come home from work and suddenly you're eating, you know, even if it's just a salad or something or Doritos or whatever it is, there's this, I think there's this desire for the uncomfortability in our jaws to go away after a long tense day. So we wanna eat like crunchy stuff at the end of the day. So, um, so I just noticed that, that I really want to just work my jaw at the end of the day, um, really just check in so I don't make habitual choices that aren't in my best interest.

So, wow, that's actually a really good connection because as you're saying that, I'm like, oh yeah, right, right there.

Exactly, right there. Yeah, totally. When I was 18 and at NYU, just, we've got to stretch our, you know, our jaws, uh, at the end of the day, um, really just do body check-ins, breathwork, all sorts of things. Um, yeah, yeah.

You know, I, I love the breathwork, hence, hence the name of my podcast.

Um, yeah, it's so—

I am a firm believer in it.

Yeah, you know, We really don't. We, you know, we could do some now. Why don't we do that? Oh yeah, let's do that. So, um, first off, a lot of people breathe like this, right? If you ask them to take a deep breath and they go— and it actually, if you, if you kind of take that deep breath, that, and it really kind of chokes you up, doesn't it?

Like, it's like right here at the top, right?

There's like this tension right there, right? It doesn't So let's just drop our shoulders, and if you want, you can put your hands on your belly button.

Okay.

And just breathe in and breathe out. So no— I don't see your shoulders moving. That's perfect. You just want your belly to fill up like kind of like a water balloon would. And you can wiggle your toes now. Which is another great way to kind of connect with your body. Notice the difference? You suddenly felt your legs, didn't you, for the first time? I did. Right? All in the last half hour. Right? And then what you're going to do now is you're going to keep breathing into your belly, but I want you to lift your toes, just your toes, with every breath in. So just lift them up. And put them back down. And lift them up. And put them back down. Do it one last time. How do you feel? How do you feel after doing 3 deep breaths?

Really good.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, really good.

Yeah, it really is important to build those in throughout our days. Um, like I said, you know, entering the house, uh, getting in your car, um, walking down the street, um, as your, as your child or loved one is talking, just really take those deep breaths so you can be completely present with them and hear what they have to say. And then also notice our own reactivity, right? Because sometimes I'm with a kid or with my spouse and they're starting to talk and I'm like, and I cut them off because I either want to fix or I want to interject my own opinion or my own story. And it's usually not that helpful to interrupt someone, right? No one, no one really likes to be interrupted.

No, nobody likes to be interrupted. It is very funny because I, my husband's family, whom I adore every single one of them, I'm very, very lucky. But, you know, big Irish, loud family. And when I first met him, I was like, Oh my goodness. Like, just because everybody's always talking and you never ever get to finish a story ever. Like, it takes hours. And, and now I'm so used to it, you know, 20, 25 years later. But it, I, there are times where I just giggle and my kids, you know, of course really notice it as well. And, and, and we just laugh because you know, there are 5 stories going where everybody's trying to finish their story.

Oh my gosh, that's great.

But yes, it is, it is very true. And because nobody wants to be interrupted, but—

and especially kids, I think. I just interrupted you, I apologize. Go ahead.

No, no, I was taking a breath.

Okay, good. Um, especially kids, I think, who are trying to find their voice You know, um, it just doesn't feel very good to feel like this person has it all figured out and, you know, and I don't, you know. It's just—

Correct.

Yeah, yeah.

And especially if you are, um, you know, not necessarily, you know, a louder person or a really effervescent type A person, right? You're a little more reserved or a little more shy, then that makes it really hard because when do you ever step in? Right, right, right. So it is—

I'm sorry. Yeah, and I was gonna say, on often, you know, when you're a teen, just verbalizing something helps us figure out what it is we believe in, you know. And if we aren't given that opportunity, we don't know what we want or like because someone's always trying to tell us what we want or like. And that's no fun.

It is no fun at all. It is no fun. And I love that you said that because that has been as our kids have gotten older. So my oldest is 20, and then my girls are 17 and 15, and then my youngest, who's a boy, is 13. And we have, you know, especially over the past 4 or 5 years, the conversations have become livelier and more open and more and more shared. And, and there are times I, you know, giggle because there is so much talking, you know, but they are— that's exactly what they're doing. And that's what my husband and I talk about, that like, you can almost see them trying to figure it out as they're talking, right? They're just— there's talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. And, and, you know, we just sit there and let them go because that is That's how they figure it out, and it's kind of this lovely process to, to witness.

But you're absolutely right, and it's so cool when, you know, when you get a teenager to talk, you know, and they're just going, don't you just feel like, oh, this is perfect? This is—

it is, it is the coolest thing. It really is. And, and I laugh because I think there's probably a decent third of it that I'm like, oh my gosh, I totally don't agree with that. I'm not going to say that. Right. Right. Or, or I'd love to give my opinion on that.

Yes.

Right. And there are times where, you know, we will kick each other under the table because it's the—

yeah.

Right. So like, this is how they figure it out. It's so cool. But oh my gosh. Right.

And they remember these moments so vividly, you know, that I'm just always blown away with, you know, we had our niece live with us for about a year. And, you know, I remember we, we went to a park near our house. I'd say maybe 5 or 6 times, you know, maybe not even that much, but she remembers it as like all the time, you know, and I just love Isn't that sweet? And I just think, you know, like, they'll— kids will say, you know, we always used to, you know, play games every weekend, you know. And it's like, well, we played games, you know, maybe 3 times, you know. And but they remember it as these just juicy moments where they felt safe and there was fellowship and connection and it's just, it's just really nice to kind of cultivate those, those feelings of safety for kids, you know, no matter, no matter what, what that looks like.

Right, right, exactly. And I think really kind of cluing into what it is that makes them feel safe, right? Because it's different for each one of them and And that's a really— it can be stressful trying to get there when you are realizing that you're missing the connection.

Mm-hmm.

But working on that and working through trying to figure it out and getting there is really cool. And, and worth it, very worth it.

Absolutely, absolutely.

So, um, there's one thing I was thinking earlier that I was like a— actually two things. So a response to your dog story, because I love that so much, um, and I, I don't want you to feel like you're alone because the same exact thing happens to me and I have noticed it, um, so we have two dogs and one is, you know, 7-year-old golden doodle, and then our, our baby dog, as we call her, she's a— she just turned 1 because everybody needs a COVID puppy.

Yeah, and you got that.

We got that. Yes, because, you know, why not? We're all already shoved in a house together. Let's add a puppy to that.

For kids.

With 4 kids. Yeah.

Perfect.

So perfect. And she is a character. I mean, she is, she's a mini Bernedoodle and she's a character. And anyway, she, so 2 of them, the doorbell rings and I have 2 of them losing their minds. Well, we finally decided that it was time that she needed to go to boarding school. Okay.

Yeah.

And so she's been away for 2 weeks now.

Oh.

And every time the doorbell rings, that happens to me. And I'm like, and to all of us, especially my 17-year-old, she's like, oh my gosh. And she's like, and then I realized nobody's barking. I'm like, I know, it's so nice. So it's literally the baby that gets the bigger dog going.

I mean, interesting.

Our older dog, she'll like bark once or twice and then she's done.

Right.

It's the baby who's like, "Rah!" Yeah. But I love what you said about that too, because realize, you know, I'm so using this. I'm so excited to tell my daughter too, because being able to really notice that.

You know, I, yeah, totally. Like you could totally just turn to each other and just say, tell me what you're feeling. Okay. I feel heat. I feel, you know, and because what's happening is we're hijacked. By our bodies in that moment. Yes, it's just like sending all this like fire to our brains. Fix this really annoying situation, you know, that's really stressing me out or pissing me off or whatever. Totally, right? And so, yes, I don't know, it'd be kind of fun to just turn to each other and just say, tell me, tell me every body sensation you're having right now, you know.

We're going to have fun with this.

I think, right? Yeah. And it might, you might cure you. I mean, that's what'll be really cool is if it cures you of that reactivity. And then it'll sort of open up all these doors of, well, where else am I reactive? You know, when my husband says that thing, or when my daughter says that thing, you know, or when I'm driving, or, you know, whatever it is.

Yes, when I'm driving, right?

Yes.

Yeah, I was, uh, I used to be a very, very angry driver until I had kids, and I knew that they could understand what I was saying, right? Yeah, and I then became very good. And now that they're all older, you know, especially the older two, I have them yelling the passengers, right? I'm like, oh guys, like this, it just does us damage.

You know, they—

it does.

It's just not a good thing. You know, for many years I used to, um, tell a story in my head about the other driver, uh, but it— but I would switch it and I would be— it would be a positive story, right? Oh, that person just cut me off. Because they're on the way to the hospital, you know, and their wife is, you know, 9 and a half months pregnant or whatever. You know, and you just tell your— you just tell this story. But mindfulness is not about storytelling. It's about checking in. It's about noticing, like I said. So what I do when someone cuts me off or whatever is I just notice the sensations in the body, like the doorbell. And that also fixes the trigger, you know, that hijacking, it just gets better and better with every incident on the road. You just check in with the body and then you take that breath and you— there's an expression, you name it to tame it. So that's really— yeah, you probably heard that. So if you just name whatever you're feeling, suddenly it's the, you know, the sort of that primal part of us, that wild part of us isn't so wild because it's no longer running the show. Our consciousness is running.

Right.

Yeah. Pretty powerful. I mean, I, you know, every year I'll look back on how my mind— well, I do this all the time, but I look back on my mindfulness practice and I see the evolution of it. I see how I'm able to handle different scenarios with so much more ease and grace and kindness and curiosity. My kind of little mantra is, you know, today may I be kind, today may I be focused, today may I be curious. K-I— and the acronym is KFC. So I don't really— I don't eat KFC, but But I think kids like it, so I—

Totally.

But I just think it's really true. Like, be kind to myself, be kind to others, focus on myself and focus on others and my surroundings, and be curious about everything, right? Right. And that seems like a good way to live a life.

You know, I think so. Yeah, I like that very, very much. Um, and I think that's a good, a good mantra to, yeah, you know, start every day with just as a little reminder. Um, I am a big fan of, of mantras and, um, and just affirmations. And I'm wondering, as, as someone who who, you know, does this all of the time, because I feel like I've kind of tripped on a lot of this. But is that part of mindfulness, of having a mindfulness practice? Is that something good to have, or does it help kind of—

Yes, I think so. I mean, I, you know, nothing is required here. Everything's an invitation. But I would say yes, because since mindfulness is about awakening every part of us. The heart is one of those things. So we really want to open up our hearts and have them be able to just experience, I don't know, connect with what we're experiencing. So yes, I think practicing kindness is a really good technique. And I think actually I was just in a class the other day, and I was the student, and the teacher was saying he, whenever he goes up to the cashier, he'll just, or he tries to say, you know, may you be happy, may you be healthy, may you, you know, find ease. And he just, so his heart opens up a little bit, so there might be an opportunity for connection, but also just that feeling of being near someone that you don't know, that there's a little bit more ease there than there would be if you hadn't done those practices. So, right, he has a dog too, and he said that he does that with other dog walkers in his mind. He'll just say that so there can be a little less tension around the interaction.

So sure, because that energy is definitely felt.

Yes.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, right. So that's people up, you know, as you approach them and their dog, you know, like tightening the leash or, you know, or whatever, or getting the dog treats out or whatever tricks you have.

Uh, right.

Also just that, you know, may they be, may they be kind, may they be curious, may they be at ease, whatever the mantra is.

Um, right.

And also, it's that check-in. So you're probably taking a breath in that moment as well, which is helping to oxygenate the mind so it functions better in this potentially stressful situation.

Right. And I think that is a very— this is going to sound really funny, but reminding yourself to breathe. Because I don't know about you, but I when I am in stressful situations or if I'm really thinking, I hold my breath.

Yeah.

And I'll catch myself holding my breath and I don't know how long I've been holding my breath. And actually my therapist started pointing this out to me because we— when we'd be talking about really intense stuff, she's like, "You've been holding your breath for like a minute and a half." Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm like, "Oh gosh, I am. You're right." And so So becoming very aware of, okay, I'm feeling that I'm in that place where I start to tighten up, I don't breathe. To breathe and really focus on that breath, then it allows the flow.

Yeah, that's right. And I know our smarts go up. I mean, all sorts of things. I mean, who hasn't been taking a test in school and you're just frozen, right? You— and if you just were able to take a few deep breaths, you'd probably wake up enough to say, you know what, let's just try the first problem and we'll go to— then we'll go to the second, you know, rather than, oh my gosh, I'm never gonna know all of these questions, you know.

Exactly, exactly.

And that's that waking up part of it. And I think too, I imagine with a teenager, just if you're silent as a parent, just take deep breaths so they can see you taking deep breaths. I'm sure, I'm not sure I believe in all of this, but your energetic field, I think, will change in imperceptible ways.— is that a word? Probably not— ways that the child will pick up on on some level, you know.

I think so. I do believe in that, and I think that they are very— they're very aware in lots of different ways that we don't realize that they are aware, and they do pick up on It's always interesting to me when, you know, a situation has occurred and what they've picked up on are the subtleties of the situation, not so much, you know, what exactly happened. So I think that they are very, you know, they're just open, and even if they don't know exactly what that is, they feel it, right? And It's kind of fascinating.

You know, a little life hack is your kids are, you know, like talking to you like this.

Yes.

Try to switch, try to change your body language. So if they're like this, put your hands, you know, like on the counter and go, well, tell me more, honey. And, you know, and really open up to them. And what you'll find is they'll probably switch to your posture, or they at least won't feel like, like they're mirroring your tension too. So you play around with their tent— I mean, it's, it's, it's a little manipulative, but in a good way, right? It's really fascinating. Like, if you, if, or if you go to lunch with someone you'll find that both of you will be sitting like this, you know, because you're— because it's a good friend of yours and you're just— your mirror neurons are firing and you're just really connecting. It's the coolest thing to watch. Like, you'll just kind of almost be dancing with each other at the table if you're really, you know, into each other, like, you know, your best friend or, or whatever. It's, it's a fascinating technique to try.

That is awesome.

Yeah, I was just on a Zoom call with a bunch of colleagues, and the 3 people that I work with the most, we were all sitting the same way on the Zoom call.

Oh, is that funny?

And everyone else wasn't, but I just felt like we were all like, you know, we felt like a little tribe or something. It was fascinating.

That is.

Yeah, so you can really, um, parents can really help their kids kind of relax just with body language, you know, crossing your legs, not crossing your legs, um, you know, leaning in, not leaning in. I think leaning in is probably a little too much for, for a kid. Yes, leaning, leaning back, you know, don't Don't you always find that driving your kids around, you get a lot more information because you're both looking forward, right?

Yes, it is so true. I mean, that is my hands down my favorite time. And I've always been so sad when the next one gets their driver's license. Right. But even now, when Connor comes home, we have this coffee shop that we love that's you know, like 20 minutes away, and that is like the best time driving there and back, you know.

Yeah, there's— I guess we're just not being able to pick up on body language, so we're just, we're just relaxed. We're more relaxed, right? Or something. It's fast.

There's something, there's definitely something with the car. I mean, all of my kids love the car and, and one-on-one time in the car specifically. So it is kind of, I don't know if it's that it is just the two of you in this enclosed space and nobody else can hear. There's something very safe about it.

Yeah.

I don't know. There is something very magical though, for sure.

True. Yeah. Yeah. And the volume is a little bit more contained, right? No one's tending to like be using their booming voices or—

Correct.

It's interesting, correct? Like there's an echo issue with the windows and whatnot, so let's just be chill here as we, as we drive.

And, you know, exactly.

That's interesting.

Exactly. I know, isn't that funny? Yeah, it's such a, you know, what, whatever works for you, whatever, you know, you just have to find, yeah, find what works, right? Um, oh my goodness. Okay, we have covered some really, really awesome things, and I feel like Um, you know, we've covered a lot of— we've covered some great practical strategies actually, which was one of my very specific questions, but I feel like we've kind of put some good stuff, good stuff out there. But I'm just wondering if just for a couple minutes we could shift, um, to my specific audience and talking about this you know, most of everyone listening out there are parents, allies, advocates of either an LGBTQ, you know, child, young adult, um, love someone in their life is LGBTQ. So I guess I'm wondering, you know, kind of two things. I'm wondering if you could share your story of coming out with us, and as well as perhaps some, you know, and this is kind of off the cuff, but like very specific mindfulness techniques that both parents and kids can use.

Great, sure. So I came out when I was 16 in probably 1983 or 2, 1982 or 3. It's a long time ago and I was pretty outspoken. I marched in the LGBT— well, probably the Gay Freedom Day Parade back then in San Francisco. I was one of the organizers of the youth contingent. We made banners, the whole thing. And so I was really politically active really early on. You know, growing up in San Francisco, there was a little bit more of an openness I actually found coming out in high school— I went from an all-boys school to a co-ed high school, and it just was much more easeful to be out in that environment. The kids were really welcoming, and I really didn't have a hard time of it. I got a I had a boyfriend very early on. He was a little older than me and I'm not— I don't recommend that, but it was fine. It was like a year and a half. And, and then eventually when I was 24, yes, 24, I met my now husband. And we met at a cafe in, in San Francisco, outdoor cafe called café floor. And yeah, and we just met across the crowded room and it was very, you know, sweet and flirtatious. And, and I wrote my name down on a card and gave him my phone number and had him call.

Yeah.

And then the rest is history. And then we were together. We've been together for 31 and a half years now. And oh my gosh, you know, and as you know, Relationships have their ups and their downs, but mostly it's been great. And, you know, we're really— what's wonderful is we both are interested in growing emotionally, and, and that I think really matters. Like, I just—

it does—

just don't think I want to hang out with someone who's not interested in looking inward. It just, it just seems like a bad idea for me.

Yes, yes.

So, and that's hard, you know, like, you know, and I feel bad for, you know, straight men in the United States is they've really kind of been told that they don't need to look inward and looking inward is feminine. And, you know, it's not a great sort of MO to get out there into the world, unfortunately.

It's not. It's a tough stigma for sure. And I think very, you know, I would say that would be one of the few things that I'd be like, boy, you have that, that's really nice for you, and nice and easy, right? You know, those things I would say, but, uh, but, um, you know, just thinking about how my Connor is able to connect. And, you know, and then how hard, you know, my husband works at it. And I mean, granted, there's, you know, he's older too, and so things are always harder when we start them older, which is why it's so lovely that you're teaching this so young. But that is a great A great thought and a great observation. So thank you. Yeah.

Yeah. And so I would say, you know, I mentioned it a little bit before, but just that the idea that being gay, I think is a gift, you know, it sort of opens up my lens about what it's like to be different and be a minority. And have empathy and be an ally for other minorities. To just, I really think it's, you know, it's certainly not a handicap in any way. You know, I love that many Native American cultures believe in that two-spirit quality.

Yes, yes.

Gays and lesbians and transgenders. Transgender people. And I just love that. And I've always felt that, that I'm able to be able to sort of be sort of that half man, half woman energy, or tap into that half man, half woman energy. And, you know, I love that there— we're looking at, you know, just how do we want to be called? You know, do I want to be called him or he or they? And I'm okay with they because You know, I do feel like we're souls having a human existence anyway. And so I'm okay with they if someone wanted to call me they. Anyway, I don't know. As far as more practical advice for parents, I just say breathe more, listen more, connect. Ask questions, you know, mindfulness is a noticing practice. So just notice where your kids are at. What do they need? You know, just like in mindfulness, what does my body need right now? What do they need right now?

Right.

And how can I be there for them? It's just, I just find that ease whenever possible. And You know, I was thinking about this too. Like, I think there's a lot of fear, you know, like, are your parents gonna still love you when you come out? What is my life gonna look like? Mm-hmm. So, and I mean shame by that shame of feeling like you've known something your whole life and you haven't had the wherewithal or the the verbal skills to voice it, but you know in your heart that if you tell this secret that you will be ostracized, you know, you'll be kicked out of the tribe. And that, they call it, I think, insidious trauma. That insidious trauma of having this secret, doesn't matter if it's gay or whatever it is, this secret that you think will prevent you from being loved is really, really hard on the body and on the psyche. So I think, you know, that coming out process, and you know, sometimes there's a lot of that, a lot of anger that kids have when they're coming out. And I think it's just like, you know what, I'm going to be angry because if you reject me I'm going to be ready for it, you know. And sure, um, and I— so I think that's, I think that's part of, um, I think that's part of it, um, at least for me it was, um, that I was just sort of, you know, a little guarded during the coming out process because I didn't know, you know, what every day was going to bring, you know. Uh, you know, my, my mom was very emotional when I first came out. She eventually was amazing. And, you know, but, you know, she needed, she needed a, you know, like a month to kind of sort of process it all and maybe even grieve, like we were talking about, grieving the loss of what her thoughts were about the future and kind of to compare them to what the reality was, which, you know, turned out to be a really lovely reality of you know, 31-year relationship, a lot of love and connection and, you know, with her and, you know, she was— she and my husband, you know, loved each other so much and, you know, would go to football games together and love to tease each other and giggle and yeah, they just were besties. So And he thinks about her all the time, even after she's passed. It's interesting. He loved his mom too, but he often brings up my mom just out of the blue. And I just think that's so sweet. So anyway, yeah, it's just, it's a challenging time, but it doesn't have to be an awful time. It's just, there's just a lot of big feelings that come with coming out. And I think if we can just label them as big feelings or uncomfortable feelings, you know, it doesn't have to be all this negativity. We don't have to use the words negativity.

Right.

It's just uncomfortable right now, and it's going to get better, you know, if we put in the work and the kindness and the focus and the curiosity. So.

See, kindness, focus, curiosity. Yes, yeah, yes, yes, and yes. And I, um, there's my dog.

Yes, I feel a little tension right here.

Do you feel— yes, are you feeling—

yeah, right here. And then look, my hands. But there's nothing I can do.

No, no, that's what they do. I feel it right here in my chest. Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Yes. Yes. She's been good. Yeah.

She saw the light on my door. She knows that I'm recording.

Oh, okay. Oh, wow. She's a show dog.

I wish she were that observant. I love it. But sadly, as much as we do, you know, think that our dogs have very complex thoughts, I don't know how accurate that is.

I don't know if that's accurate.

Oh my goodness.

But yes, anyway, so just thinking that is— I think having this mindful piece, this is why I was— one of the reasons I was so excited to talk to you today, because I think this is really valuable for wherever— well, wherever anyone is in their life, but specific to my audience as a parent, being able to just check in, check in with yourself, check in with your child, breathe, pause. You know, the gift of the pause is huge, huge, right? And, you know, I'm listening to you, you know, list off all of the different feelings, right? The, the grief for the parent, um, you know, I, I call that the The Mourning the Movie Reel, right? Yes. Yeah, it's, it's a necessary process. Yeah, it's okay.

Yeah, right.

And then, you know, for, you know, Connor hit all of those. He— the shame, the anger, and just— and, and I know lots of kids do this, right? But just, I think, being able to allow themselves that and not, you know, add shame on top of shame, right? Oh, I shouldn't be doing this. The whole should thing. Don't should on yourself, right?

That's right. So, and uncomfortability, if we don't manage our uncomfortability, and shame is part of that, it's going to come back and bite us in all sorts of ways as we go through life, you know. And I think that's why, you know, in the LGBT community, you know, there's a lot of different abuses that, you know, we do to ourselves over the years because of that inability to deal with uncomfortability. And the more parents can model, you know what, this is an uncomfortable time and we're going to get through this together, um, and we're gonna, we're gonna love each other through this. That's huge. And, and again, it's like mindfulness. It's, it's modeling that behavior that, that they're going to carry through their lifetimes.

Um, right. Um, so I think that, you know, more than what I like a lot about mindfulness and everything you've shared with us today is that it is a way of moving through life. It's not, you know, here are 10 exercises that you should do twice a day, right? It is— and, you know, you check in and see what feels right with you every day. So part of— I mean, that's like the biggest thing is checking in with yourself, right? So little bit at a time. That's right. A little bit at a time.

And yeah. And you mentioned that, you know, it's not about exercises, but, you know, some people are more reactive than others. You don't seem like a very reactive person. You might have your moments, but, but, but that's why I do recommend that people do come up with some sort of mindfulness practice that works for them, you know, and that could be, you know, try to take a half an hour walk every morning, you know, try to do yoga, try to just have the TV off and just drink your coffee staring out the window, or your tea, or whatever it is. It doesn't have to be all Buddhas and, you know, mats and everything else, but if you want to go down that route I would encourage like an app called Daily Calm. Oh, yes. And just, you know, there's like 5-minute meditations and they're guided. There's 10-minute meditations. And one thing that a lot of new meditators are uninformed about is that mindfulness is not about emptying the mind. About quieting the mind. That does happen sometimes, but don't count on it. So, right, just sit for 5 minutes, and if you have the busiest day ever and you're just— your to-do list just keeps popping into your brain for 5 minutes, just keep noticing that that's happening, and that is the perfect mindful sit. It doesn't have to be, oh, I sat for 5 minutes and my mind is completely empty, and now I'm gonna go to that board meeting and give the presentation of my life. You know, it's sitting for 5 minutes, noticing all the tension that's happening in your body because that board meeting is coming up, or whatever it is. That's it. That's all you have to do. Do is just notice. There's no— right, there's no outcome. There's no— I'm trying to flatline my brain. Uh, that's just not possible in this busy day and age, you know, with 4 kids and 2 dogs and a husband and a house and a podcast. And, you know, right, it's just not doable for everyone 365 days a year.

No, it's definitely not. And that is something it took me a long time to be okay with, because when I first started meditating and really being mindful, you know, I would sit and there would be days where it was just my— I could not shut it off. It's just the noise. And I'd be so mad because I'd be like, oh, that was 15 minutes of wasted time. You know, I don't have 15 minutes to waste.

Right.

And then I began to realize that that's okay. That's where I am right now.

And yeah, you know what's kind of fun is when your mind is really busy, you can actually kind of feel it like bumping around up there. I don't know if you've ever experienced, you know, it's like almost like it's like little boxing gloves hitting your top of your cranium or something. And that's really cool. Watch or witness, you know, and you can almost feel like flashes of light, or if you close your eyes, you can see.

Yes.

You know, it's kind of cool.

It totally is if you focus in on that. Okay. I'm so glad you said that.

Yeah.

Because that happens to me quite often. Like, what is going on up there?

Right. I mean, it's like when you have a headache, right? You can actually feel your headache throbbing, you know?

Right.

And to a lesser extent, when you have a busy mind, that activity is happening as well. So you can just get curious about all of that. And like, is it here? Is it back here? You know, is it on my temples? You know, where is that activity the most intense? So it's a—

well, and giving yourself the permission, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

It's huge. Right.

So, and again, you know, and don't start with the brain. Or don't stop at the brain, just keep dropping through the whole body. Where is, where is uncomfortability showing up? Where is boredom showing up? Where is frustration showing up? And, and that 5 minutes will fly so bot fast if you're that curious.

Oh, for sure.

Yeah.

You may need more time.

Yeah. You will be like, wait, what?

It's 5 minutes already.

I know.

Yeah. It's true. Yeah, the body check-in, the body scan ones are great because it does kind of force you to be like, oh, that feels really tense right there. I wonder why it feels tense right there, right? And really, I mean, the other thing that I remember, you know, hearing when I first started out, like, breathe into it, breathe it. What is that, breathe into it, right? Well, now I— you totally can. Like, you really, when you think about sending your breath there It goes, it goes, like it's violent, right?

You could feel your toes, right? Couldn't you feel like tingling down at your toes when you were— yes, doing that? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and it is, it's almost like the parent swooping into that area to just be like, how are you doing? Are you okay? You know, right? It's this really sweet thing that we can do to our bodies anytime we want if we put our put our energies towards that.

I love that. That is awesome. Oh my goodness. Well, can you remind me one more time? Because I definitely would put this in the show notes too, but I just want to remind everybody, we started out with talking about where you did your mindfulness training, and I am drawing such a mental blank.

Mindful Schools. Mindful Schools. Mindful Schools.

Okay. Yeah. Okay.

And they're—

and And that was—

there's others too, of course. Okay, um, and you learned about them, was it through the Greater Good Science Center?

Okay, that's what I was thinking. Okay, yeah.

And then I actually get a monthly magazine called Mindful Magazine, and I really love it.

It's wonderful.

You get it too? Yeah, isn't that nice?

I just—

it's such a great way to just check in and remind myself of different activities that I can do. And, um, of course, look at different programs around the world that I could participate in if I wanted to.

It is wonderful. You're absolutely right. And I think that is, um, it is something that I give myself permission to sit and read.

Yes, me too. And it's a great thing to do before going to bed. Um, I love it because it's hard for me to read a novel before going to bed because I, I want to enjoy the novel. I don't want to use it as a, as a sleeping aid, whereas the Mindful magazine I use as a sleeping aid sometimes.

Yes, because it kind of lends itself to that.

That's right.

Um, whereas I'm the same. Well, I don't read novels at night because then I don't go to bed.

Right.

Because then it's 2 AM and I'm like, oh no, chapter.

Yeah.

Right. So I, it's one of those things where I'm like, I just don't do it anymore because, yeah.

Well, that's good.

I know myself.

Yeah. Um, I'm, I'm impressed that you stay awake. I, I fall asleep after a page or two.

Oh my goodness. I, I wish I could. I, you know, my kids, that's one thing they laugh at me. They laugh at me for many things, but that is one of them, is that when I do read, I love to read, but literally the house could be burning down, the dogs could be eating each other, and I would have no idea if I'm reading a good book. And they all know not to talk to me. They know not to come bother me.

Well, that's present moment awareness right there. You know, it's probably a little too focused, but yeah, that's pretty good.

That's probably an extreme example maybe of what not to do, but, um, yes.

So anyway, pretty valuable skill to just be able to tune everything out.

I think that's like a mom skill.

Yeah, I was gonna say, I thought the same thing.

I think it is because, um, you know, I don't know if you're a, um, oh my gosh, what's the cartoon Family Guy, um, with Stewie, with the mom. Okay, I'm not a big watcher of it either, but my kids, my kids are. And there's this one character, and his big thing is he's always, you know, "Mom, mommy, mommy, mommy, mom." And the mom like never hears him, right? The mom's like, "Whatever." And so it's my ringtone for all my kids. Oh, because that's adorable, because it's so true. Like, they'll be like, you know, it's the whole like, "Hey," Hey, hey, hey, and you're finally like, oh my gosh, are you on fire? Bleeding? You know, do we need to go to the emergency? Like, what kind of— what are we talking here?

That texting has, I think, I don't know, has ruined us all. We're way too communicative, but I do it too.

Yes, yeah, we all, we all do.

Yeah, we all do.

So, well, is there anything else you would like to add today before we wrap up?

Just, you know, just take it easy, you know, just really try to be in the moment. Take those deep breaths, wiggle those toes, uh, listen more than we talk. But I just— it's a hard, you know, being a parent is hard. I don't have kids, so, uh, so I bow to all of you who have been raising these beautiful human beings for so many millennia. And, uh, and just thank you for having me.

Well, it was a pleasure to have you. This was such a fun interview, and thank you. I learned so much, and I know that my, my audience is just gonna love this as well. So thank you, thank you, thank you, Heather.

Thanks so much for joining Heather today. Remember to just breathe. Take a few minutes every day to calm and center yourself. Reach out anytime with ideas, questions, or feedback. Please rate and review Just Breathe on your favorite platform. Subscribe to Heather's website, www.chrysalismama.com, to receive her monthly newsletter and stay informed. Join the private Just Breathe Facebook community to chat with other parents and allies, and share with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone.