#42 | What a Trans Dad Can Teach Us About Allyship, Family, and Mental Health

Welcome to Just Breathe: Parenting Your LGBTQ Teen, the podcast transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child. Filled with awesome guests, practical strategies, and moving stories, host Heather Hester always makes you feel like you're having a cozy chat. Wherever you are on this journey right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone. And here is Heather for this week's amazing episode.

Welcome to Just Breathe. I am so happy that you are here. Before I jump into introductions for today's show, I just want to give a quick shout out to Liz Graham, who is the first person to use my new referral program. And so I just want to say thank you so much for helping me get the word out there. Today I'm interviewing Tristan Reese, who is redefining the idea of family. His June 29th memoir, How We Do Family, covers so many important issues, from trans pregnancy to adoption to LGBTQ parenting. More, it does so in such an inspiring yet relatable tone. Tristan's voice shines through in the best way as he shares his story and lessons applicable to every family. Tristan, I am so thrilled to have you today on the show and to hear your story from your perspective. I was really, really drawn into your story from literally the very first page, and I kind of sat down thinking, okay, I'm going to read through this, and I know there will be tons of stuff I want to highlight. And I was so compelled by your story and just the way that you shared it that I totally forgot to highlight and I was just so into it and it was awesome and I read it in one sitting. And what I found, you did this really beautiful thing where it's both captivating and it shares this really extraordinary story, but what you do by sharing that story with such vulnerability and openness really helps make it ordinary. Right? And it's just this cool thing that you do. So I would really like to start right at the beginning of the book. Being transgender is still not widely understood. People have lots of questions. There's lots of misunderstanding. And while everyone's experience is completely unique, I found such clarity and relatability in yours. Can you share, just starting from the beginning, how you figured it out, how you knew, and, and then we'll go from there.

Sure. I mean, I think people really do want a straightforward, easy story about how I knew, you know. They, they seem to really want the, like, I emerged from the womb 100% clear that I was a man. And like, my story just doesn't happen to be that straightforward. I mean, I think number one I was raised in a pretty liberal accepting family, especially considering the era of the early '80s, especially considering that I was raised in a very conservative part of the country. But there wasn't much to rebel against in my family in terms of gender. And in a way, of course, that's a benefit, right? It's a benefit to have all available paths in front of you and to not have to rebel against something to assert your gender identity or gender expression. But in a way, for me, it also meant I didn't have an awareness that maybe there was something else going on for me around gender until much later in my life, until my late teens, early 20s, because I was just kind of allowed to— if I wanted short hair, I could just have short hair. If I wanted to wear dungarees instead of a dress, I was allowed to wear that too. You know, there just wasn't a lot of push in any direction gender-wise. And so I really didn't didn't really sit down to figure out who I was until my late teens. You know, that was the time when I thought like, oh, okay, maybe there's something else going on here and maybe there are some changes I could make to my body that would make me feel more whole and happy and, you know, at home in my skin. And so eventually I did those things and that did help, it turns out.

I think it's really important to hear people's stories and people's experiences, and that helps in just normalizing it for so many. I mean, I want to say kids, but I think people in general and their process and they're figuring it out and they're understanding and wanting to feel just at home in their skin, right? Your early career was with the National LGBTQ Task Force, right? I'm wondering how how your work there prepared you for all of your journeys in your early 20s and then once you met Biff and all of your journeys and adventures that the two of you have had?

Well, I can't really say that, like, you know, those early career, you know, choices that I made impacted necessarily my personal trajectory.— But it did me. And you know, one of the questions I get from a lot of other transgender men who've had babies is like, "Why did your story catch on and mine didn't?" You know, other people have really wanted to put themselves on the map and really be part of this bigger conversation about the transgender movement. And you know what I usually say to them is, you know, to be able to tell your story in a compelling, relatable, accessible way, that's a skill that I spent decades learning. It's not, this didn't, like my story catching on didn't happen by magic. It happened because I spent almost 10 years talking to straight people about LGBTQ issues, doing persuasion, learning about the science of how do you actually change someone's mind when it comes to supporting LGBTQ people. I use it, I used all those principles in my book. I used all those principles when I worked with the media, You know, that, that is really the direct connection between those years I spent in the movement doing community building, doing persuasion, doing all of that. And then it really, I really feel like it set me up uniquely to be in this position where I could tell my story and have access to truly millions of people all over the world. It just feels so weird, you know, but people I know all over the globe would take like, you know, they'd take a picture of their TV and be like, you're on my TV right now in Spain, right? You know, or like my friends in Germany would like take a picture of like whatever newspaper was on the newsstand and be like, "You're on the COVID of the newspaper in Berlin?" And, you know, again, that didn't happen by accident. It happened because I spent all of those years investing in my own understanding of how do we talk about these issues and topics in a way that people get, you know, that resonates with them, that's easy for them to hear, that they can have some empathy, and you can move the conversation forward. So I think that's how those years spent doing, you know, LGBTQ organizing directly translated to me being able to tell my story.

That's amazing.

Yeah. That—

could you actually just expand on that a little bit? Because I think that those are pieces that all of us could benefit from learning and learning how to, you know, hone, because it just takes practice. It's not something that you hear or you read in a book and you say, okay, now I can do this. It takes practice. And that's what we all need to do. As not, you know, LGBTQ people, but also allies and advocates. I mean, that's one of the most important things we can do, right? So could you share some tips and tricks?

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think by and large, what's most important is that when people go to try to do this kind of systems change work or culture change work, it's really important that first you've done your healing work. And so Brené Brown says, "If my healing is dependent upon your response to my story, I'm not ready to tell my story." And that's a really painful truth. It's hard for people to hear and believe. People are like, even though I'm angry, wounded, broken, upset, I should still be able to make change. I mean, maybe. But what you're going to find is the work is just going to traumatize and re-traumatize you and the people that you're trying to organize and communicate with. People know in their bodies, is, is this person doing this work from a scar or a wound? And if you're doing the work from a wound, people feel it. It feels unsafe to them. It feels treacherous to them. They feel that and it puts them into that defensive space too. And in fact, not only will you not be effective in trying to do your work, you can actually cause greater harm. You can push people further away from moving forward and having a greater understanding of the community. One example is, you know, I spoke at a conference with parents of trans youth, and I said, you know, if you are still so angry and hurt and grieving for your kid being trans, for this possible future you imagine for your kid, you can't get up in front of a school board and convince them to change their non-discrimination policy so that your child can use a safe bathroom. Right? They are going to feel and know you are hurting. And when you do your work from that place, they're going to be like, whoa. That's when you end up yelling at people because really you're yelling at yourself, you know? And so that's really number one before we even think about what tactics serve that larger strategy of change. First, it really is that mindset, the way that you show up in that work. You have to have done your own healing work with your community before you can then engage. So that's number one, is that mindset piece.

I love that.

And then number two is really understanding that this work is developmental. There are different stages that people go through as they come to understand, accept, welcome LGBTQ people. And so what may work for the principal of your kid's school is going to be very different than what might work for your conservative boss. Right? So the principal of your kid's school may be like, "Yes, I totally get it. Some kids are LGBTQ. Help me develop a policy or help me understand why the language I used in that PTA email didn't work." That's very different than how you might approach your conservative boss when you say, "I'd love to be honored as employee of the month, you know, at our big thing. I'd like to bring my family. And by the way, you know, my son is going to bring his boyfriend." Let's talk about how that's going to work for you, right? It's just a very different approach. So when I talk to a conservative outlet, media outlet, I'm using quite different language and framing than when I talk to Cosmo magazine. Different people read those magazines.

Sure.

Approaches are going to work. So really digging into who— what is my goal with this audience and what are the values of this audience? So how can I frame this in language that people are really going to understand? And so that's the, that's the tactical thing that I'll, that I'll share that is, I think, most useful. Useful when thinking about what do you want to see happen? What's the goal? And then who are the people that we're trying to persuade and what messages are going to resonate most with them?

Right, right. Oh, I love that. That's so helpful. And I think both of those, you know, doing the work, I talk about that a lot. You know, we have to do the work and until we do that work, we can't move forward. One of my very first episodes I did was on the coming out process for your child, but then the follow-up was the coming out process for the parent and what the parent needs to work through in order to be not only a supportive, loving parent, but to be an effective ally. So I think those are fantastic points and really gives a great, you know, starting off place for people to say, okay, this is, this is what I need to do. And then this is who I'm talking to, right? This is who my community is, whether it's a work community, a school community, a family community, and how, what words do I need to use? How do I relate to them? And I'm not just talking at them. Because I think that is, especially at the beginning, is so easy to do because you just want to get it all out there and this is how I feel, right? And it just falls flat.

Yeah. And you love your kids. And so just you loving your kids is enough for you to make it past whatever kinds of internalized bias, assumptions, stereotypes, fears you might have. That'll get you through. Guess what? Your boss doesn't really care about your kids. Not to be mean to your boss or whatever, you know, but that's not going to be enough to be able to just say, but it's the right thing to do. 'You know, my kid is LGBTQ, so I want us to have an LGBTQ working group to look at our policies and practices, look at our staff from the community feeling included.' Like, I want— they don't care that it's because your kid— I mean, maybe they do. I'm not trying to be mean to bosses, but, you know, you have to figure out maybe for them it is going to be a little bit more of a business decision, right? If you say, you know, 'I'm motivated to look at this because my kid is LGBTQ, and doing some more research, I think there's actually a really strong business case to be made for having kind of working group. You know, maybe it is a business case. Maybe it's about a culture of belonging. Maybe it's about people doing work effectively. You know, I work a lot with like very mainstream big corporations. And often I say being able to do culturally competent work means that you remove the distractions of bias and people can work more effectively and more efficiently. Great. That makes sense to them. They're like, that sounds good. I do not want my workers to be distracted, distracted, you know, and thinking it's not about selling out, it's about how are you framing the work so that it's going to make sense to the people you're talking to.

That's awesome. That is really so helpful. And you say it— I think this is why people think it's so easy, because you say it in a way that makes it sound like it's so easy. And there is, you know, like you said, there is a lot of work and practice that goes into being able to present in this way where it just is like, this is what you do. And this is, this is who you, you know, where you need to go to find the information or what you need to practice, um, what you need to work through, all of that. So thank you for sharing that. I really appreciate it. I want to just dip into your book a little bit. I don't want to ruin it because I want everybody to read it because it is such a phenomenal read. Um, but almost every chapter of your book has a section at the end called Notes from Life in Our Family. I loved these because they were super, super helpful. They were topical, but they were just quite educational. And again, written in a way that anyone can understand them, where there are— no matter where you are on this journey, there's going to be a lightbulb moment for you. And I found that in the very first chapter, I think it was the How We Do Love, you had the whole section on understanding trans language, which I, you know, I've read a ton on this and I just thought this was so well done and written in such a great way because I think a lot of parents, allies, advocates are like, we want to do the right thing, we want to understand, and there's like this whole like scurrying of like, oh my gosh, this is so scary and we don't want to be offensive. And I just have to read this, your very ending paragraph, if you don't mind, from this, because it is perfect. So you say, "Your goal when learning these concepts should never be to know everything. It should be to know enough to be sensitive to others, to avoid ignorance, and to cultivate an attitude of humility that allows others to tell you when you've stepped out of line," which is two thumbs up. As my mentor Beth Zemsky— am I saying her name right? Okay, good— says, allyship is the ability to view the world through multiple lenses, and learning about those who are different from you is a great way to sharpen that lens. Most everyone wants to, you know, I say that's very general, sweeping generalization, but I like to think that most people want to do the right thing and to learn and to understand And I just thought this section in particular was so super helpful. But I will say that all of these, and I'm curious what your hope was in creating these sections at the end of your, you know, each chapter, which was really a part of your story. And then you had this great educational piece.

Yeah, I mean, the goal was exactly what you just said. It was to have people understand in as accessible language as possible some of these concepts that can get very heady and theoretical and didactic. You know, we love words in the trans community, and sometimes things can get extremely complicated, and people are using words like cis-heteronormativity, and I have to tell trans people, other trans educators, I'm just like, no one knows what that means.

Right.

If you're only speaking to people within the trans community, that's great. We need people doing work in the trans community. Use all the fancy words you want, that's fine. And if you're trying to be accessible to a wider audience, you have to understand— maybe not accept, but at least understand— that most people have not spent any time thinking about this, right? And so getting this information in a shame-free, accessible way, that's how we get people to the place we need them to be in order to do more effective work and not step in it quite as much. So that was really the goal there. And I was reluctant to do anything that felt like teaching or preaching or advice, anything like that. I was like, oh God, who am I to say do this or do that? But, you know, my publisher was like, no, you need to tell people to do this or do that. People are open to hearing it. So I was like, okay, we'll see. So we'll see if, uh, with anyone.

I am here to tell you that I thought it was quite, quite helpful and, um, and it made for a really lovely balance. So, you know, from reading, you know, a chapter of your story and then going into this, you know, and it's not long, it's, it's really, you know, 2 or 3 pages max, right? But it is like this perfect amount of teaching and education that so many of us want. And I think that's the biggest thing, you know, there's fear exists and ignorance exists because the information isn't readily available or readily accessible. So I, by doing this, you've done people a great favor and a, you know, a great service to say, here, here it is. So you understand better so you can practice this and, and just, you know, kind of reminding everyone It takes practice. Nobody's perfect, but you have to start somewhere with it, right?

Yeah. I mean, it's, again, it's like Brené Brown says, like, let's be like awkward, kind, and brave. I think that's what she says. And people will say like, oh, but it's, it's so awkward. Yeah, totally. Let's get awkward.

Right.

You know, or I did, um, my consulting firm, we hosted a land acknowledgements webinar, right? So we had an indigenous person come and do this amazing training on how you can build more intentional, deeper relationships with Indigenous communities and nations. And, you know, so many of the things in the chat were like, "Oh, I'm like, I'm just so— it feels so awkward to approach someone in this way." And I— so I passed that question on the facilitator and they said the same thing. I was like, great, let's get better to be awkward and try than to either not do anything at all or to really step in it. You know, and so I tell people like it can be awkward to say to your kid even, you know, I really want to be a fantastic ally to you. Like I don't want to go overboard, but I also don't want to go underboard. So like how am I doing? It can be awkward to ask. And also like let's be humble, you know, let's say I don't know all the things. I'm trusting you to tell me how I can do and be better. And I'm going to proactively seek out opportunities for you to tell me. You know, I know that there's a power differential here that may prevent you from coming to me and really saying, Mom, I need you to chill out. Like, stop with the P flag thing. We don't need a rainbow flag in front of our house, right? No. Or the other way, like, I need you to tell Grandma and Grandpa I'm gay. Like, let's— like, I can't have you messing around anymore. This is what I need from you, right? You know, sometimes our kids can't tell us those things. You know, they're scared.

No.

And so understanding those power dynamics and giving them a chance to tell us and, and being a safe person for, for them to come to, you know, that's what we hope.

Absolutely. And that does take, I think you used a great word, humility. Um, and in doing that, by allowing, you know, your kids to kind of see that shift of, I want to learn from you, I want to really understand where you are and You can only do that by being super genuine, right? And, you know, kind of taking away that, like, I'm the mom or I'm the dad and I'm, you know, whatever, I, I'm in charge and being like, I really, and it's, it does take practice and it is awkward or, you know, I, I use the term messy all the time. You know, it's very messy. It can be very messy, but you just embrace that and go with it. And, and your kids will tell you, I mean, for instance, I love that you said the whole pee flag thing because. I, about 2 weeks ago, was like, all right, we're getting a flagpole and we're putting up the pride flag and some other flags. And, you know, my son's at NYU, my daughter's going to Michigan in the fall. I'm like, we've got a lot of flags and this is exciting. And my daughter was like, Mom, we live on the corner of, you know, that's kind of a busier street. I really need for you— yeah, take it down about 12 notches. Because I am I'm enthusiastic and I get excited. So they, and they'll tell you like, this is too much. Or, and I've certainly, you know, with Connor numerous times been like, I want to understand, but I don't want so much information. You know, there's, there is a fine line between information that we don't necessarily need, but then again, Sometimes having that extra information helps you understand where they are with things. So it's messy, like you said.

Yep.

And I love that you're—

you—

yes, you are a fan of Brené Brown, who is hands down one of my favorites. She is just fantastic.

So cool. I told my agent, like, that's, that's my dream. Is to be on Brené Brown's podcast. So could you all work on that?

Um, yes. Oh, for sure. You need to be on there. And she is such a great interviewer. Oh my goodness. I love listening to her podcasts.

She's so fun. So fun.

Well, yeah, you need to be on there. Gotta see what we can do about this.

Well, from your words to whomever's, right?

We're just gonna throw this out to the universe. Manifest this, right?

That's right.

Oh my goodness. Okay. So the big topic, which I'm sure is one of the biggest things that everybody wants to ask you about, but I want you to talk about it in whatever way that you feel comfortable. I thought that you, in the sharing of your story, you showed such courage and sharing your pregnancy journey from you know, pre all the discussions, everything that happened, um, you know, all the way through. And, and you chose to share that with the world, and there was a lot that came at you. Um, you know, you, you did get beautiful support, but you also got a lot of just ugliness. I'm wondering now, as you look back, if you are happy that you made that decision. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it because it was just so incredibly courageous.

Yeah. I mean, it, it didn't feel courageous at the time, but honestly, I think it's just because, I don't know, I'm naive, stupid, one of those. Um, it, you know, I just, I just really thought I'm prepared for this, you know, I'm prepared. Mentally to be able to withstand whatever does come my way. And I'm prepared literally, you know, I have all of this advanced training on how to tell my story well so that the most number of people will see it, resonate with it, understand it, and then hopefully be inspired to take action to support transgender people in whatever way is right for them.

Right.

So I was just woefully unprepared. And you know, this really is It really is my least favorite question is when people basically are asking, like, do you regret it? You know?

Right.

And, and, you know, I don't— I really don't believe— I don't believe in regret. What's done is done. There's no reason to look back. And like, was it worth it? And I still don't know. I may go to my grave not knowing. It's wonderful that people saw my story. It's wonderful that people reached out and share the impact it had on their lives. And I hope it continues to ripple out and make change, that's great. But like, I'm not a completely selfless person. And so while I'm delighted that some people were able to hear my story and that it made a difference for them, I can't avoid the very real impact that telling my story had on me and my spirit and who I am and how I see the world.

Sure.

You know, parts of me died. When I got the backlash that I did, you know, the parts of me that fundamentally believe that people are good, that believe that change really is possible, the parts of me that were not aware of how incredibly brutal and disgusting and vicious people can be, like, that never comes back. You know, once that part of you is gone, it's gone forever.

Right.

And, you know, my partner who had already been exposed to the more vicious parts of humanity, You know, it's like, yeah, it's a gift. Like naivete, like it's not good. It's a gift to have that go away and to really understand more clearly what the world is, not how you want it to be. Interesting. I thought that seeing the world as a fundamentally good place, I thought that was the gift. And now I have to move forward and figure out who am I if I'm not naive and optimistic? Then like what of me is even left? Those are the things that people liked about me, you know? And so I don't know, you know, I don't know, was it a net positive, a net negative? Did it cause more harm than good out in the world? Did it cause more harm than good within myself? I just don't know. I may not know for many years, if ever.

If ever.

So the jury's still out.

Okay. Well, I apologize for asking one of your least favorite questions, but I thought, you know, not at all.

I— not at all, not at all. It's just, I don't have a simple answer.

Well, of course not. Of course you don't. And I didn't think that you would, but I, I was wondering, you know, where you kind of were on the spectrum of all of those feelings that, you know, you related so well in the book. You know, it's interesting that you said that the toll that it took on you, because that's what I kept thinking as I was reading this, because I'm thinking, oh my goodness, he's, you know, you were growing a life inside of you and simultaneously just all of this nastiness coming at you. And that, that is so hard. And, um, and I think, you know, you have a very tender spirit and that I think that's even more difficult on, on those who are more tender-spirited. And, um, so I, I I'm sorry that I asked the question, but I, I also, you know, I think it's important for people to hear how their words affect people. I used to be in an accountability group with this woman who always said, you know, words can't hurt, words can't hurt. And I remember thinking, well, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Of course words can hurt deeply. And it doesn't matter who they're from. I guess I just wanted you to know that your courage, your vulnerability, and I think there is a very tender spirit still there. So I don't think you lost all of it.

Well, thank you. I know Biff says I like the you now even more than the you from before. And there's a poet that I really love that I actually met on Instagram of all places. And this person is both visual artist and a writer. And there's this incredible— I'm a part of their Patreon, um, like, community, and so I get something every month from them. And they, you know, had this beautiful thing that they sent out, um, this beautiful illustration where, if you can imagine, it's— there's like a before and there's an after. And in the before, there's a big blue circle, um, that is, uh, safety. And then there's like a little tiny orange circle that's like unsafe. And then the after is like there's a big orange circle that says unsafe and a little tiny blue circle that is safe. And it's like before and after. I was like, oh yeah, you know, it just hit me really deeply that like that's— that before the world, before this happened, the world felt really safe to me. And of course that's a function of my privilege. And of course theoretically and ideologically and And certainly in my values, I understood that that's not true for everyone, but it was true for me. And then after what happened with me telling my story, it was like unsafety was everywhere, and there were only little tiny pockets of the world that were safe. But then accompanying, you know, there was this little poem that they'd written, you know, that really said, like, I love how openly you stepped into things before, and I love how careful you are now. And then at the very end, the poem says— did you catch that? I love how you are now.

I love that.

And of course it wasn't written for me. It was just like a poem they wrote. But like, it had never occurred to me to love how I am now and to, I guess, not to stop grieving for who I was, but like, what are the benefits of being careful and keeping myself safe and understanding that yes, the world is not safe and maybe the that's okay, right? Um, that they're both okay and that you can have love for how freely you were before something happened, and you can also have love for how careful you are now, right? Um, it was, it was really profound for me to get this little note from them in the mail. I have it up next to my desk where I work all day every day to try to remember to have love for who we are now.

Absolutely, absolutely. I think that is a gift, and it's one of those 'and,' right? It doesn't it doesn't have to be one or the other. It's, it's and, and just learning to embrace both of those and knowing that, you know, grieving what was is a process that there isn't a timeframe on and embracing, you know, kind of stepping into the very clinical term that my therapist and I use, your you-ness. It's, it's super technical. Be, be in your you-ness. Yes. Being you and loving all of you is, uh, oh, you-ness, like Y-O-U-N-E-S-S. Yes.

And like, like you, like, like unique. Like what are we talking about? Your you-ness.

Your you-ness. Exactly. Yes.

Yes.

It's, it's, it's not clinical or technical, but it works. So, you know, it's easy to, it's easy to wrap your head around. To just be like, oh yeah, like everything that makes you who you are. And that's beautiful. So thank you for sharing that with, with me and with everyone. You share a really great section at the very end of the book in your appendix called How We Do Activism, which I loved, and I learned so much from that as well. And I am just wondering if you could share a little bit specifically about the Developmental Model of Intercultural Sensitivity. I thought that was so cool. I loved that. And it's so applicable to all types of activism. It's not, you know, specific to one type, right? So it's something we all can use and learn to use in whatever type of work we're doing.

Yeah, I mean, that's a tool I've been using for like 12 years. And so, yes, I use it all the time. And I really— I mean, I feel like I really could write an entire book that's specifically about this. I mean, now I've done— I've used this tool and just for— obviously, I don't want to nerd out about it too much without explaining it. You know, it's this theory that change is developmental. That people go through different stages as they come to really understand both the similarities they have with people who are different from them, as well as the very real differences that we have across lines of race, gender, class, ability, right? The shared humanity, but also the very real things, the differences that make a difference. You know, again, as Beth, Beth Zemsky, one of my mentors, says, Um, and so that's, that's a tool that I use. It's a model that I use. It's, it's an actual administrative tool that people can like take. It's an assessment. You get a coach, someone goes through it with you.

Okay.

I've done now just dozens of those. And so yeah, I love that tool. I love that model. I could nerd out about it forever.

Oh, I'm sure.

They were like, okay, let's just throw it at the end somewhere, you know.

And of course, here's me, let's talk about I love this because it's so fascinating. But I think that one of the things that, one of the, it's, well, several things that I found fascinating. First of all, it does line up a little bit with the whole coming out, the stages of coming out and with the denial and the defensiveness and then the acceptance and the, you know, moving forward. Right. And, but the one thing that I. I think a lot of us who are, who are allies and advocates, but not members of the community, and even in doing anti-racism work, um, as a white person. So I think we get caught up, hung up on the differences, and then we kind of panic, right? How do we handle the panic, the differences? How do we do this? How do we heal what's in us? Do we have anything within us? I don't know. Is it there? It, I think it is. I, you know, and there, there are all these questions, right, that it brings up. And I'm wondering if you could speak to that and perhaps share your thoughts on how to navigate that.

Yeah, I mean, it's the, the way that the model works is it really teaches us that we can really only do work from our frame. So from whatever stage we're in, that's how we're going to view everything. And so, you know, for example, if you are just coming out as LGBTQ and maybe you've moved out of the denial stage and you're into the polarization, so that's stage 2, is polarization, you may either— well, you're gonna see the world in black and white and good and bad. Like, that's sort of the natural place where that stage shows up. And you may view yourself, your identities, your community as good and everyone else as bad. Bad, or vice versa. You may view yourself and your community as bad, your identities as bad, and the rest of the world is good, right? And we're seeing this already show up, as we do every single year that Pride comes around. Should we allow, quote unquote, allow drag queens and the leather community to be at Pride, right? So this is like a super classic example. So yeah, I really hope that you aren't being exposed to these conversations. I I hope that they are appropriately siloed just inside the LGBTQ community itself. But this is a conversation that comes up every year. LGBTQ people say they're making us look bad, they're confusing us, right? And the underlying message, it's polarization. It's why can't we just be more like them, right? And so that's that stage of polarization. Why can't we just be more like them? And can you all just act more like them? So it's a stage.

That's it.

And hopefully people eventually find people who are not in that stage that can pull them forward. Or the opposite, which is like, you'll see, I'm sure that you are seeing posts on social media that like when you say LGBTQIA, the A is not for ally, right? That's polarization. Like you are not in our community, right? Or like hashtag down with cis, right? Trans people, you know, you know, dogging on people who are not trans. It's polarization. It's a stage that people are in, and they can only see the world through that frame. They can't see all the incredible cisgender people who are doing really bold and brave work where they're risking a lot to push forward change for trans people. They can't see that, you know. That's, that's, oh, that's performative, right? That's fine. They can only see it through their lens, through their frame. And so, you know, that's why I love the model too, because it takes the shame out of it. It takes the judgment out of it. It's like no one's good or bad. You can only see the world through your lens.

Right.

And what allyship, I hope, encourages us to do is to broaden the lens, is to use the power of empathy to see the world through other people's eyes and to be open and to be curious and to be humble, to hopefully move into being able to see that we are all so deeply and profoundly interconnected to each other. And we truly are that spider web where you pull on one piece, we all, you know, all of us are moved when one of us is harmed. And when one of us is lifted up, all of us are lifted up. You know, it's hard to see that when you're in some of those beginning stages. And I saw my parents go through the same thing. No, you're not really trans. You couldn't possibly be trans. This is just a fad. This is just a trend. This is just a stage. Like, they definitely did all of that. It's like, okay, fine, you know, you could be trans, but, but anytime there's a but, I'm like, oh, this is polarization, right?

Exactly.

It's fine. It's polarization, you know, right? It's fine.

It's part, it's a part of the process. That's part of the work. But I think that what really, and this is just how my personal brain works, but I, I work well when I know there are steps and there's a process and there's, okay, this is where I am now. I want to, I want to understand everything. So I spend a lot of time trying to understand things and that not everybody works that way. I realized that, but this is so, I find so helpful. Not only in my own work, but as I'm working with other people and as other people, you know, ask questions or I see things that are, you know, out on social media or out in the world. And I can better say, oh, well, that's what's going on. Instead of, you know, what sometimes tends to be a mama bear response, you know, don't, don't even mess with my kid, right?

These morons.

Right, exactly, exactly.

What's wrong with these people?

What the— They don't know any better. I love the spiderweb analogy because, you know, I truly firmly believe that we are all humans and we are all connected and that things like this, it's fear, like the baseline is fear. And so when whatever stage happens or whatever you're going through and it comes out as is, you know, ugliness. It's fear. I, I just so believe that it's fear. And so I kind of pull that apart and I think, well, what are— what is this person afraid of? Or what are they— what is this community afraid of? And, and how can we work to alleviate that fear or, um, share information that will make this less scary. That could be incredibly naive, but I figured you might appreciate that. For—

I mean, truly, for people who haven't had a lot of exposure to LGBTQ issues, to transgender people, to transgender families, they may find themselves defensive because they are worried, right, that somehow they are going to be left behind, right? That somehow they're going to be made irrelevant. The world is moving forward and I don't understand any of this, so why don't I double down, right? That fear of irrelevance is just— it's really potent. And that's part of where storytelling can come in, is because it's not anybody saying you're bad or wrong or I don't care about you or, you know, you're soon going to be, you know, no longer important in this new society that's creating. Instead, it's saying 'Look at how much we have in common. I have kids, you have kids, right? I work to build a family, you work to build a family. Harm has come to me, harm has come to you.' And so that's part of why I was hoping that my story would start to push forward this conversation, is because I hoped that a story, as opposed to like a TED Talk, you know, or a lecture, or a policy that your boss is implementing, right, or a parent at school telling you that you're wrong because you use the wrong pronoun for their kid, whatever it is. A story can kind of circumvent all of that. It's also why I use humor when I'm presenting to groups or when I'm doing coaching is because it's just science. When we laugh, it kind of like hacks our defensiveness a little bit. When we're touched, it hacks our defensiveness, you know, and then we're more open and we're It's easier for me to like sneak some messages in there.

Absolutely. Well, it makes you so relatable, right? Um, I mean, I find that I default to humor, you know, if I'm, if I'm nervous or if I'm, you know, really wanting to share something and I'm not quite sure like how to— humor is the easiest way to just put everybody kind of on like, take all of like the You know, ah, out of it. And I love that this is a science-backed theory because it was just a coping technique for me.

You think that, but really, I mean, like, like, let's think about as feeble as our little human brains are, they're also brilliant in lots of ways. You know, we're always bringing in data points that we're not aware of. And I would venture to say that there are times when you have yelled yelled at someone about something, and there are times when you've, like, been self-effacing or, like, made a little joke at your own expense or at someone else's expense, but in a loving way, and your body has felt, "Oh, this is easier. This is more effective. Oh, let's do this more." So you say, "Oh, I don't know. I was just—" I venture to say that of all the millions of data points your brain has taken in, it has noticed that when you make a joke about something, when you talk about something using an analogy, an analogy instead of something that's super theoretical, it's more effective. It gets in and it gets in at a deeper level. And that's, that really is like what the science tells us. Storytelling, being open, curious, connecting with people. In political science, it's called stickiness, that the messages that are shared in that kind of a container are stickier. They last longer. They are deeper. They're more resonant. Sure. All those kinds of things. And that's what I was hoping my story, and that's what I'm hoping my book is, is gonna do, that it's gonna be sticky. Wow. That people will hear it, learn something, not even notice that they're learning something, and that it's gonna stick with them. Absolutely.

We haven't touched on the adoption of Lucas and Haley, who, oh my goodness. I mean, I just kind of wanna throw these little teasers out there because holy cow, everyone, this is an extraordinary story. I mean, You, so you and Biff had only been together for a year, correct? When you learned that you would be taking care of, it was Biff's sister's kids, right? You were, you're taking them into your care. This story is extraordinary. And these two went from just overnight becoming parents, um, and parents of, you know, a 3-year-old and a 1-year-old. The lovely ways that you shared what that experience was like. There are pieces that every person can relate to. And then just going into your, you know, marriage and your having a baby and all the work that the two of you, you know, did before you met and are doing now is just so extraordinary. So I'm putting links everywhere for everyone to buy this book. I am gonna actually maybe consider that are this required reading for listening to my podcast. I think it might be a required reading book. It's that good. That it's released on June 29th, correct?

Yes, that's right. It was supposed to come out yesterday. And because of the Suez Canal, like speaking of us all being interconnected, right? Because of whatever happened on the Suez Canal, all the publishing, printing, shipping things got pushed back. Oh my goodness. So yes, now it's gonna be at the end of the month.

Oh, is that wild? See, amazing, amazing. Wow, the people will hear about this before, well before the 29th, so we are in good shape for that. So is there anything else that you— words of wisdom or a story you'd like to share before we wrap up?

Yeah, I mean, I think the only thing, thinking about, you know, I really should have pitched that I do a co-interview with my mom for your podcast, you know, because, because my mom has just had such a, I think, really, really interesting and unique journey as a parent, you know, coming to, coming to love and accept me and all of my uniquenesses. Absolutely. But I think really what I learned in our relationship is, you know, for LGBT, the parents of LGBTQ kids, is, you know, your process, your healing, it matters so much. And it's not your kid's job to support you through it. Like, you need other grown-ups to support you through it. Even if you see your kid as super mature, even if they are legally an adult, you know, don't put that on them. Because I think that was the hardest part for me, was to be expected to carry that burden for my mother while she was going through her own stuff. And, you know, she kept saying, well, I just don't understand. And, you know, I have brothers grow— I had brothers showing up and like I wanted to do the boy thing, I didn't want to be a boy. I'm like, good for you. Like, this isn't about you. You know, I wish that she'd had somewhere else to put all of that Sturm und Drang, you know. Yes. And so I think that's like my one learning for parents having been on the receiving end of that is like, you deserve to have your process, but like somewhere else from your kid. Yeah. And I think the other The other thing is, and this is in the very, very, very end of the book in the acknowledgments, I do acknowledge my parents and specifically my mom. And specifically for, you know, I said like, I'm going to be talking about you in the book. Do you want to read any of it? And she said, no, it's your story. And I think there's something really beautiful and profound about a parent really letting go of what does the way that my kid sees the world and the way the world sees my kid What does that reflect on me? And at what point does that just get to be their story? And I really love that she didn't want to censor me and didn't want to say, well, that's not how I remember it. You know, she really just said, it's yours. It's yours to tell however you want. And I think that that was just so beautiful and freeing and profound. And I think that any parent could learn from my mom in understanding that. That the world may reflect what your child's journey is on you, and you don't have to take that on.

Right, right. That is beautiful. And perhaps we will have to reconnect in 6 to 12 months and have your mom on as well, because I think that's always— you know, Connor and I have done a number of episodes together, and it has been so much fun because You know, him, him sharing his perspective as well as, you know, when you did this or when you said this, and we have this total, you know, it's such a lovely thing for people to hear because they connect with that and they say, oh, okay, I'm not the only one that's feeling that way. Whew. It was like a huge sigh of relief. Right. So, um, those are two fantastic points and. We'll just have to circle back once all of the excitement around your, your book, you know, gets out there and, and you're, you're used to all of the goodness and that comes from that. So I just want to thank you.

Thank you for sharing. Of course. Thank you for having me on your show. I wish you and all of your listeners, most of whom are parents I know, or in that, that middle space, I assume, of being excited for what the future holds for their, their children, and also a little wary of how the world is gonna treat their kids. And I hope my story helps them see that there are lots of possibilities ahead for everyone. Yes, yes, absolutely.

Thank you, thank you.

Thanks so much for joining Heather today. Remember to just breathe. Take a few minutes every day to way to calm and center yourself. Reach out anytime with ideas, questions, or feedback. Please rate and review Just Breathe on your favorite platform. Subscribe to Heather's website, www.chrysalismama.com, to receive her monthly newsletter and stay informed. Join the private Just Breathe Facebook community to chat with other parents and allies, and share with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone.