6 Years & 200 Episodes: A Parenting Story of Grace, Growth, and Getting It Wrong

200 episodes, 6 years, one family's journey from silence to connection, from fear to love. This is the story behind everything we've built together. Welcome to More Human, More Kind, the podcast helping parents of LGBTQ+ kids move from fear to fierce allyship and feel less alone and more informed so you can protect what matters, raise brave kids, and spark collective change.

I'm Heather Hester. Let's get started.

By the end of this episode, you'll see how healing actually unfolds inside a real family, with the missteps, the unlearning, the breakthroughs, and the unexpected moments of grace that reshape everything. You'll understand why becoming more human, more kind starts in the places we least expect: the stories we inherited, the boundaries we learned to set, and the courage it takes to rewrite our lineage. And you'll walk away with a deeper sense of hope and permission to grow, to repair, to get it wrong and begin again, and to choose love even when the world around you feels hard and sharp. Welcome to More Human, More Kind. I'm Heather Hester. 200 episodes, 6 years of learning, unlearning, fumbling, repairing, awakening, and choosing love again and again. This episode is special, not because it's polished, but because it is real. It's not just my story. It's our story. It's a story told through the voices of my children who lived this transformation with me and through my own reflections as a mother who had to unlearn so much to become the parent and the human I wanted to be. Today you'll hear the roots we came from, the awakening that changed our family forever, and the integration, boundaries, and becoming that led to this community, this mission, this space where we gather each week. It's intimate, it's honest, it's tender, and it's a little raw. And my hope is that somewhere inside our story, you'll find a piece of your own. I am so grateful that Connor and Grace joined me for this interview that was so beautifully facilitated by Samantha Mackey. Without further ado, let's begin.

So I'm going to start with some questions to the, the kids while we have you. And that's, what are some stories that you've heard about your mom's childhood? What are some ways that you've heard about who she was as a kid, or maybe what her upbringing was like? Anything that comes to mind?

I know for sure the way that we have been raised is very different from the way that she was raised, and it's very specific. Um, I mean, of course the way that she was raised is part of who she is now, but it's also, I think, taught her so much about how to treat others. She's definitely the eldest child, um, you know, and I definitely heard a lot about that and how she always looked after people in her family. Very independent from a young age.

Yeah.

Trying to think if I can think of any specific stories. I don't know if you have any, Connor.

Wow.

I was gonna say, I mean, I don't know. I think I agree with what you said, Grace, about the whole, like, your ideology on parenting is very in response to the, what, what was lacked, um, in your growing experience. And, you know, we don't have to get too far into the weeds on that yet, but, um, yeah, absolutely. You know, I often hear about the different relationships you had with your different family members and how you were very close with Aunt Corinne, and obviously that became something that you know, grew and evolved over time, especially after you guys broke out. We're able to kind of compare notes on what your, uh, growing up experience was like. And, um, you know, I, I do have like the, the anecdotes that stick in my mind, I don't think are really relevant for this conversation.

I can definitely take that she's always been a little bit maybe of a, a social butterfly. Thank you. Perhaps. Um, and someone that people maybe paid attention to. She was not someone to be ignored. And, you know, I'm curious about— both of you said, you know, that there's a lot of differences between how your mom grew up and how she's raising you. And we can talk— we don't have to be delicate here. So, you know, what are some of the differences in how she was raised from what you've heard?

Well, for starters, we, like, have a relationship today, which I think is kind of the core thing. Grace and I were willing, if not excited, to come on the podcast and talk about her and talk about our relationship, which again, is not something that could be said for mom's relationship with her parents, her family. Grace and I don't live in Chicago anymore, but like, I will speak for me. I'm always excited to come back and spend time and catch up. And we talk every week and I think there is, you know, there's a genuine desire from both ends to have meaningful dynamic that continues to grow and evolve. Um, and I think that growth and that evolution are obviously two key parts of like the whole journey and something that like I can say was entirely lacked by her parents.

I mean, we could, that could be a, a days-long conversation about the differences between, um, parenting styles. But I think, I mean, for one, I know our opinions are valued.

I think there is that kind of like boomer ideology, very like old, out of style, kind of like notions of the man is the head of the household and, you know, the woman is subservient to him and her job is to be the homemaker. And then you add the Christian morality element to it. And like that whole set of rules that like one should follow if they wanna be a good husband and wife and a good parent that I think they just did by the book.

Um, I think there's like two things. It's kind of their characters are very specific and, you know, our mom just kind of got unlucky in that sense. Um, but you can, like the boomer thing is, you know, a lot of people maybe were raised in relatively similar households with some of those ideologies or even Christian beliefs. Like I'm thinking of our dad and his parents and how they probably had similar mindsets starting off, but the difference is my mom's parents aren't open to change or growth in any way. I've known them for 20 years and they are the exact same people that they were 20 years ago. Um, they don't grow, they don't change.

What are some of the things that your listeners and maybe even your kids don't know about who you were? What can you tell me about your childhood?

I have purposefully not talked about my upbringing. And really, and not in great detail about who I was up until, you know, 10 years ago. By, I mean, that was by design and just because I wasn't ready to. And so I think that in the past couple of years, I have started, you know, writing the book. There was definitely, there was a, huge piece of that that I did write about a lot of these things and it was taken out. The publisher decided that did not want that to be part of the book, um, which I understood. But then doing that felt so good to write through a lot of those things. And I was like, oh, well maybe I should start talking about it here and there on the podcast and in my writing. And, um, and so I have begun to, and small ways just speak about the way I was raised and what it felt like. And some of my— here's our everybody take a shot word—

evolution.

And like Connor had mentioned, I was the oldest of 3, and my grandfather was a Church of God minister, and I grew up in a mid-sized Midwestern town. And all three of those were very typical. Like, I was a very, like, by-the-book oldest child, people pleaser. I was terrified of my shadow from very young. Um, I, I learned that to, in my particular family unit, um, if I was a good girl and followed the rules that were set, then I could just be fine. And, um, I was considered painfully shy, what I now know to be a multitude of things. But, you know, among all of those, I had social anxiety, and I had a lot of you know, anxiety about the environment I was in. I could not articulate that. I have always been my entire life very expressive, very emotional, and that just wasn't allowed. And so, um, expressing any emotion was like— my parents just did not know what to do with that. So I spent um, a lot of time with them trying to like lock that down and being misunderstood in the way that whatever I was expressing. It was only in the past 5 years that I've fully come to understand that expressing, understanding, feeling anger, not only is it okay, it's like such a great informational tool. So when you understand it and you embrace it, like it is a phenomenal emotion, to allow yourself to feel. Um, obviously we know all the ways that it can also be reckless and not good. So I hold both are true. At the time, I obviously, I didn't know anything else, right? So I was the oldest. I had a younger brother, I had a younger sister. We were all very different. There were very different rules for him than there were for my sister and for me. There were a lot of expectations. I thankfully was very gifted intellectually. I learned years later that they had me tested at a very young age, had my IQ tested, had all of these, like, all my numbers were tested. And I literally just found out like in the past few years what my IQ was. But now it gave me so much information to why they were the way they were. About whether it was my capabilities that they saw as a positive or as a negative, right? Because I was a girl. And so there were a lot of pieces like with that traditional, like, well, you're a girl, so you're just gonna get married. Um, wow. It was a lot of just not understanding, I think is probably the biggest piece. Like I just went through my childhood not having any real connection and like, seeking connection. And, um, and, and that includes with my siblings. Um, we were always set up to compete against each other from very, very young. And so when I talk about my sister and the relationship that we had, that was very on purpose because once we both moved away and became adults and, and matured and you know, learned, we realized a lot of these things and we realized that we had each other. So as much as we were different and as much as like we drove each other nuts in so many ways, we also were each other's greatest ally. And we, it was like the one other singular person who understood understood who my parents were, who our parents were, so we can talk to each other and process through things and be like, oh, ah, that's what that was, right? With like, with the, the gift of distance and maturity and wisdom and growth and evolution, all these things. So, um, yeah, so growing up that way was— and I will say the other piece, because we did touch on this a lot, was the religion piece. And it's certainly a piece that I'm still, um, puzzling through, I think is probably the best way to say it. But, you know, it's interesting because I grew up in the Methodist Church, so you wouldn't think that being Methodist in and of itself would be necessarily anything. But because my mother was raised Church of God and we had so much Church of God influence, that's where the— when I say like evangelical, that's where it comes from, because it was very much that like lots of like fear. It was all fear. And so that was the under underlying layer of everything was fear. So to me, religion was connected to fear and relationship with my parents was connected to fear. My father was very much of the children are to be seen and not heard.

When I hear my kids describe how different their childhood feels from mine, I'm reminded of how much I had to unlearn before I could become the kind of parent I wanted to be.

How do you think that the way that your mom was brought up had an impact on you? Before there was more truth in your home?

Well, I think that's been part of the whole like evolution and learning process of it all. As the oldest, I think there was a lot of learning as we went, a lot of trial by fire and a lot of unlearning as well. And like, I don't say that to be like pointed, like I think it was just like, that was the reality is that the information that you guys, you know, specifically mom was operating off of was what her parents had raised her with. And until you're like, until you're really challenged to think differently or to move outside that perspective, it's kind of like, of course, that's like just the way you operate by default. Um, but you know, I will say that that again is night and day compared to like where we were 10, 15 years ago to now. And yeah, there's been a lot of growth.

So.

Yeah, definitely a lot of growth. I think, you know, before we started having more conversations, and I mean, we started having conversations about this sort of stuff when I was relatively young, um, but before then it was more so just like a, you kind of had to be specific in the way you acted around like our grandparents. Like we knew what they wanted, you know, like they wanted this specific image of like our family and who we are as kids and whatnot. We would drive down to Ohio and we would kind of become or get into this perfect family kind of picture. And, you know, you gave them what they wanted sort of thing. It wasn't like anything bad at all. It was just like, mm, how it worked per se. Like we just, A lot of things weren't brought to my attention. So as a 6-year-old, I didn't care. I got to go for Christmas and Easter and sure, even like, I didn't know my beliefs or if there were any problems at that point. Um, so it was just like a way we would act as a family, I guess.

What about when you're like, you know, 15, 16 and you have more awareness to, who you are, who you're becoming, and who your family is. How were things around that age for both of you, like that 15, 16, regarding, um, being in the extended family that you were born into?

I mean, I think always, you know, even from as young as 6 to the last time we went, you know, it was always kind of that feeling of unease. And part of it was like, cuz my grandpa was a dentist, so it was like, ugh, we're gonna have to go get our teeth cleaned. And that was really stressful. So, you know, that surface level kind of like surrounding it. But I will say that kind of like sentiment and emotion and energy kind of colored the whole experience of just like, it just felt very, I don't wanna say out of body, but it was just like, we're so in a different world here. It was just kind of bizarre. Like it was never like a feeling of like comfort or of family. It was just like a very like, Yeah, I mean, like Grace said, there's kind of, there was an element of presenting a version of ourselves and, you know, especially like after I came out and before I like came out to them, um, cuz that came like 2 years after I came out to my parents. Um, it was definitely that kind of like trying to present a version of myself and also like still being at the point, cuz I think that was still earlier on, like being at the point of still trying to appease them in a sense of trying to like have them approve or whatever the case may be. So there was an inauthenticity and a, yeah, just uncomfort, discomfort.

Mm-hmm.

So, yeah, I think for me, what, like, especially at like the 15-ish range, um, a lot of it was almost being torn between like mindsets in the sense that like we started having these conversations and I was being told about my mom's upbringing and, you know, a lot of things upset me 'cause I was like, this is unfair. She deserved better. And, you know, I start to view my grandparents in a different way. So I have all these opinions now, but then especially still at 15, we were still attempting to be like very close with them. And even up to like now visiting them, is this trying to keep the peace where it's like, we're not cutting any ties, but you know, we know they have their opinions and we have our opinion and there's kind of forever gonna be that like, um, kind of difference between us and we go and it's to like make them happy and the goal is really make sure everything— everyone's okay, I guess, by the end of the trip.

Yeah, you know, I— well, I, I relate so deeply just reflecting on everything that you're saying. I'm someone where I was afraid to use words to describe how out of place I felt with my family. So I had every hair color possible. I'm the only person with tattoos, like, covered but I would cover them all up. That was my way of making sure that whenever my family saw me or there was a group picture, that it was like, clearly I was different and I needed to like take these steps to making changes. You know, I never had formal conversations with my family about that I was different than them. And, you know, one of the things I've been learning a lot from working with your mom is about this idea almost of like your family coming out party and that, like, that idea of, like, your family unit coming together and being like, this is who we are and, like, this is more important than anything else in the world. And so I'm so curious about, like, what that time was like for you being teenagers, young adults, kids— there's a whole range of ages in your family— um, and what that time was like coming out as a family. What were things before when it was still secret? Versus stepping into life in full alignment?

Do you wanna go first, Grace?

Sure. I've been letting you go first. I don't know if there was, for me, there wasn't a specific before. Um, like once Connor came out, uh, to us, I was, it wasn't something I was ever like quiet about. I think I probably went back to school and I was like, you guys are not gonna believe what I found out. This is so exciting. Um, I was really proud of it. I mean, I still am very proud of it. Um, but like after that, our family really became this close group of people and I don't think it was ever something that we really hid in a sense. We've always been very proud. To be the people we are. Even before that included the LGBTQ sense, we were proud to be the family we were in whatever sense. But then adding this, it was never, we were never really separate. Like Connor and I are gay, but like that never separated Rowan, Isabel, Connor, and I, we're all together. We've never been like, considered different. Like it's, it was a very easy process cuz there wasn't much of a transition into how we acted as a family. There was never a second that I felt like we weren't a singular unit. Like we operated together and I always felt very safe in a sense and defended by these people.

Yeah, definitely agree with that. I think, you know, fun drinking game for this podcast. Every time I say evolution, you take a shot. I guess there, the distinguishing factor between the before and after, 'cause it wasn't really even like a fine point of when it became what I consider our family dynamic today versus like before. I think it really just evolved naturally as I grew up, as we all grew up. I think there was, you know, during the, like when I came out and was struggling and a teenager, uh, you know, I think I did view our dynamics differently as like, you know, ugh, like, you know, guys are just like dragging me down. You know, I wanna be doing all X, Y, and Z. Even though it turns out those things were like much to my detriment. Um, like regardless, it was never a, like, you know, even in that time I was like confiding way more than I should have to Isabel and to Grace and to all of them. And, you know, as like children, but it's something that I, in reflecting on now, I was even just thinking about the other day, like how fortunate we are to have this dynamic that we have that like, it does change and obviously will continue to do so. But it really does feel like it's only gotten stronger and more meaningful. And like everyone does have their own relationship with every other person in the family, but it's still like an overall, just, it's a very special thing I've come to realize, especially the more people I meet and the more time being in New York and like away from home, it's kind of like, yeah, that really isn't the, the norm by any means. And I think in recognizing that, it just like adds another, another layer of like how lucky we are for this to have been the result. Obviously, you know, I do think part of it too, of course, is like the amount of family therapy we did and the amount of individual therapy we did. And, you know, obviously the therapy is good, but it like just taught us that like there is a lot of merit to speaking about things and being honest about where we're at and learning how to meet each other where they're at.

When we talk about Connor's, like, specific coming out story, that my parents were staying at our house and Connor ran away. That's why he ran away, was because they were in the house, and it was— he just had a complete panic attack. And, um, understandably. And so she was the one who was calling me and saying, Connor's run away. He's not here. Where could he be? What's going on? I've, you know, gotten Isabella out of bed so she can call people and try to track down, you know, 13-year-old Isabella is going to track him down at 1 o'clock in the morning. And.

What a good, dutiful young woman.

I mean, Isabel had to grow up a lot and fast and learned a lot of things that she should never have known at that age. So when I connected with Connor, when we found him and he told me, and I was so worried that he— something terrible and awful had happened to him, that my initial response was, "Thank God." When he said, "I'm gay, Mom." I said, thank God, 'cause I thought you were dead. And that was literally like, that was a, a pure moment between the two of us. And like that, those initial like moments were just so much fear around just getting him home safely and calming him down and letting him know that his dad and I would be home soon and we could talk about it and that I would talk to Grandma and Grandpa. They did not need to know. I was not going to tell them. And that all I was going to say is, he needs a lot of love. Please be kind and gentle. And so there, there had always been a separation between kind of the way that I was with my kids and then the way that I was with my parents and how I, how I made that work. I will say that I found it That's so fascinating. 'Cause I don't think that Grace has ever said it to me, at least in that way, that when we would go from an early age, she had already figured out that we put on a show, that there was a show that was expected. There was a certain kind of behavior that was expected. And there, there were, and I think even before I realized it, like she, she knew, Steve knew, I mean, from way, I still laugh. I'm like, I don't know why you married me because you signed up for a whole lot of nonsense for a long time. But thank God he did. And he stuck around. At least it's never been boring. It has never been boring. That is for sure. And, and he's uber confident and just a good human. So anyway, that was definitely one of those moments in so many different ways where not only did I have that moment of thinking, there's no way that this kid is going to hell, because that was one of my next thoughts, was that's what I've been taught and that can't possibly be true. I, I refuse to believe that is true and I'm going to figure it out. But then it was also like, yeah, they can't know right now. I don't want them to know. This is like sacred information that was just shared and they don't get to know that. We messed up a lot of things at the beginning. Like we asked a lot of questions we shouldn't have asked Connor and we were, you know, so ill-prepared and for—

Like what, what were some of the questions that you asked that you could tell parents don't make this, don't do what I did.

Yeah. We have asked, I have talked about this a lot, but I, we asked, um, are you sure? Yes, yes, we asked that question. Um, oh my gosh. Uh, who do you like? Do you like people at school? Tell us who they are. I mean, talk about like not only dumb questions but like boundary hopping in like the worst possible ways.

Um, that's before we knew about boundary hopping.

It is. I mean, I had no idea what a boundary was yet, so I mean, in my, in my defense I did not know what those were yet. So, um, I was not purposeful boundary hopping. Um, I, my husband was, he was very, very perplexed, um, because he did not feel that Connor's fashion sense was up to par of what it should be for being gay. That's literally the first thing you said to me. He was like, I don't understand it. He does not have good fashion. I was like, I'm pretty sure that's it. Stereotype.

Wow.

But that is like, that is like the— I share—

you knew—

and like, that's what we knew, right? And I share that, and Connor knows all of these things because so many people think that, right? So we only, we only learn, we only get better, and we only can show up in a, in a more human way by talking about these things in a very real way. And so I think that back to your original question with hearing her voice, um, it was a moment where up to that point I had been so fearful. I realized I had been so fearful always in my relationship. Like that's what drove the relationship with my mother. And always with my father. Um, but I so desperately wanted like a relationship, you know? But it was always that, like, I was performing. Like, the entire relationship was performative.

That's—

yeah, horrible thing to realize. And, and to realize that that's what you'd been doing unknowingly, right, as a child, as an adolescent, that was survival, right? I had to survive. And then that just became like, this is how I am, this is how I am in this system.

Learned behavior, right?

Total learned behavior. Um, and it took, you know, another how many years? I mean, it started when I had kids, but then that was 16 years before Connor came out, right? So that was 16 years of very slow, like doing the dance of like, how are we going to make all this work? Because we're growing and changing over here, but we can't let them know that we're growing and changing because that is just too much to have to deal with.

That moment changed everything for us. It was the beginning of our family's awakening from fear to love, from silence to connection.

I'm curious about with what you've gone through as a family with that process, you know, what are some other things that maybe you wish the families who are going through this now would know about that process. I spent a long time, I spent almost a decade without, with choosing to not talk to my father and to just all these complicated things with my family as well. And it's so beautiful to hear about navigating some of these things together and knowing that your mom's podcast speaks to other parents. You know, what are some things about that showing up together as a family that you wish that other people knew about? Or how was your mom, um, helpful in that versus maybe other people you know who didn't have that support?

You wanna go first again, Grace?

Yeah. It's gonna be different for everyone in the sense that like every person's needs are going to be different. So I know for me, I, I love to talk and I talked a lot to my mom. I still do, but especially then, like if I had questions, if I had thoughts, if I had just genuine everything that came to my mind, I said out loud to my mom. Um, so a lot, I was able to process a lot very easily because, you know, I was constantly like finding support and getting any of my questions answered, um, through my mom. So that was great. And I think if your kids need, like, if you have a child who is like me and likes to talk a lot, then have like, making sure that space is known, like for them, that's helpful. But then it can also be entirely different in like, our little brother Rowan, he's not like me in that sense. So still making sure like he knows he has the space to ask questions. Sometimes people just need their own space and their own time. And something I also found very helpful was like, and I would encourage you to encourage your kids if you have more than one. For them to communicate with each other because there was so many times that I would find myself talking to Rowan and because I cared about him and worried about him, I wanted to try and make sure he knew I could be a safe space for him. Or if I had questions and I wasn't ready to talk to my mom about it, I would go to Isabel or Connor and just encouraging that, um, within a family is I think really important too, especially getting through something like this as a family. Um, because sometimes there's conversations that are right for your parents and sometimes there are conversations you don't wanna have with them yet. So it's nice to, you know, I'm very grateful that I have like siblings that I've been so close to.

Yeah, I agree with that. And I think just like more broadly speaking, I think realizing that this kind of transition to, or aspiration towards having a strong family unit is not something, or is rarely something that can happen overnight. It's like just one conversation and things will be righted. I think there's a lot of, you know, in our case, there was a lot of unlearning that had to be done before we could like start learning. There was kind of like taking down these things before we started moving forward. And that can be really uncomfortable and that can take a really long time. But knowing that, you know, every conversation, every interaction, every like intentional action, um, that you have in that regard is moving you forward, even if it doesn't feel like it at the time. And even if there is conflict, that just, you know, means that some other things are coming to the surface that are being addressed and are being resolved. Um, but yeah, realizing that ultimately the biggest thing is just like continuing to have an open dialogue, whether that's with your parents or with your siblings or your children or whatever. It's the, the progress, not perfection of it all.

What Connor named so clearly, that they have a fixed mindset, that that's just who they are, that they have— I think one of them said it that was so like brilliant.

Connor.

Like, duh. Again, I say this all the time. Our kids, we can learn so much from our kids cuz they see things so clearly.

It's extraordinary.

Yes.

But I did believe there for the first few, like once Connor came out to them, which like, like he said, it was, it was probably 2 years later. And then I began sharing with them things that I had learned. And it was 2 years of learning for me, right? Where I was just like soaking in every bit of information I could. And I had, I mean, it had become a lot harder work to kind of toggle back and forth between who, who they needed me to be, who they wanted me to be, and who I was evolving into being. Pick a shot. And, um, and so I, I did think for a while, like once I started sharing like books I had read and things I had written, and of course I still remember exactly where I was standing when I had just found out that Familias Publishing was going to publish my book. And I was like over the moon, like could not believe it. I was so excited. We were dropping Isabel off for her sophomore year of college. And I was like, I just could not believe how lucky I was. And I called my parents to tell them because I thought for sure they're gonna be excited and proud. Like this is gonna be a big enough thing an impressive enough thing that they are going to be like, you know what? We want to understand. We want to shift and grow along with you. We are so proud. And I said it and the crickets chirping on the other end, I was literally like, ah, like they don't care. Like, they don't— they're not going to come along on this ride with us. They got off about 12 stops ago, and I didn't realize that they were not getting back on. And that was one of a few things that occurred that I was like, "Okay. Got it." Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, I— hearing that, I have a lot of questions are coming up and I'm curious about with the writing of the book and deciding to start the podcast and write the book and, um, take your story out on the road and if any of that was connected to that you couldn't share it with your parents.

I'm sure it was.

I'm sure there was a piece of that.

I think, I'm sure each one of those things were like, well, maybe if they just hear it this way, right? Maybe if they actually read the book then, like, I worked so hard on that book. And like I said, you know, the publisher did take out a great, probably 90% of what I wrote about family and what I wrote about religion. And, but what we ended up with was like such a beautiful threading of the needle of like, and this is like something I've just realized in the past few months, is that it was like this loyalty still. Like I felt this loyalty, like I couldn't, even though there had been all of these things that had been said and done to hurt and outside of just the way I was brought up, but like as a, as an adult and as a as a parent and as the mother of their grandchildren, right? That I still felt this, like, it was a weird thing. Like, I don't wanna hurt them intentionally, but I wanna be honest and let people know things like this happen, right? Like, this is real. And if this is happening to you, then you're not alone. This happens. It is complicated and it's nuanced and it's messy. It's just messy. And so, um, I think that was a big, a big thing for me. Yes. And doing it, and, um, and I did, you know, initially when I started this podcast, I was like, I'm not talking about politics, I'm not talking about religion, I'm not talking about like basically anything other than like relationships and parent-child relationships and anything LGBTQ education that I could share with people. And, you know, about 18 months ago, the gloves came off and I just started like trying my hand at, at, and talking about that. Connor was one of the people that was like, you've got to start talking about this stuff. And that was another piece of like me breaking away. And the more I understood, the more that I learned, the more that I became engaged, the more that I talked to people, different people from all over the world, the more I was like, oh yeah, that just doesn't align. Like what I grew up with doesn't align with who I actually am. And I, the pretending, I, I just can't do it anymore.

Yeah, that's, that's a big, step, and it's also takes a lot of courage to come out with that as an adult, right? Like, these are things that are almost expected for us when we're growing up, uh, to go through. And, and going through that growth and those growing pains as a parent is something that is a whole different level of hard. And especially while you are trying to set an example and raise kids and lead with love and have such an— as such an intentional person, having this inner change happening while you're also projecting kindness and togetherness.

Healing within our own home became the foundation for everything that followed. The writing, the advocacy, and eventually this podcast.

It all started there.

I'm really curious about what evolution and changes you've seen in your mom. In the last year and a half, two years.

I think of the whole like motto of queer distance is resistance, you know, by like the fact of continuing to persist and continuing to speak about what you're speaking about, even if, you know, the scope is broadened slightly, it's still intersectional and still addressing all these things. Um, but I think it's just the podcast and my mom's voice and outlook, well, you know, still shaken by everything going on because how could you not? It's been very firm and very resolute and there's never been, it's been unwavering in her mission has been unwavering of it is important now more than ever that we reach as many people as possible who could possibly benefit from this. You know, even just the feeling of you're not alone. So I think there's been a certain stubbornness that is very much needed right now that I've seen. Not that like, of course we've all, we've all known that that exists, but you know, it's, manifested in a much more literal sense. Um, and I think, yeah, it's also that kind of phenomenon of collectively people are moving farther right and farther left. And I think all of this has pushed her and all of us even further left. And I think that's also something that's like really powerful because it just shows her dedication and the fact that this is like an inherent belief that this needs to be out there. And you know, it's obviously a lot easier to do that when things are moving in a positive direction, but when they're being completely torn down and attacked, um, to be able to stick with it and to continue to spread, you know, kindness above all else, because I think that's part of it too, is like it could come from a place of anger and a place of fear, but it really is, you know, and there is fear there, but like it's coming from a place of, um, strength and So I think that's inspiring.

Yeah, I agree with so much of that. Um, I think what sticks out to me is a lot of like the resiliency I've seen. Um, because so much has been happening or been going on in the past 2 years. And you don't have to be doing any of this, you know, no one's making you and you, like, you are just a very dedicated ally. And it is truly amazing to see with everything that happens, you just strive to learn more and teach more and love more. As much as these things will scare you or hurt you, You aren't put down by it at all. It really fuels your fire. And I, I mean, you've been doing this for 6 years and I just, so exciting to see that you continue to stick with it, you know, cuz it's, it's not something that you have to do, but you choose to do this day after day. Even when people are mean to you about it or are hating and the world is just genuinely screaming at you to stop, you do continue. And I think a lot, not just, I'm not just grateful, but I think a lot of your listeners are grateful too for that.

What are some things that you'd like to share with other parents who might be going through where you were like 5, 10 years ago, especially today? If they are having different values or were brought up with different values than their children?

Well, first of all, just know that it's gonna be uncomfortable. So just like become okay with it being uncomfortable for a while at least, and maybe for longer than a while. We are wired to want to be to be connected to the family systems that raise us. And so when we have to create boundaries, when we have to create any kind of separation, that's uncomfortable for a while. But know that if you are in that place, in that where you're feeling like maybe this is an option, that boundaries aren't a bad thing. Boundaries are actually an expression of love because it means that you're actually choosing to— you're choosing to stay in some capacity. My therapist, we, for years, this is the way that we've described this because I'm such a visual person, but, um, and the whole boundary thing was such a great learning. I mean, holy cow, did that just give me so much strength, give me so much clarity, give me so much, um, like eye-opening, like, oh, oh my gosh, I can do this. I'm allowed to do this. But my visual that I use, and you're welcome to borrow it, is I have this bridge that me and my husband and my kids are on one side, and my family system that I grew up with is on the other side. And, um, and I can picture the, the pond that they live in and in whatever way I wanna picture it in. You can picture it the way you wanna picture it, but I can choose. I choose to have the bridge there and I can choose if I wanna go over, if I wanna dip my toes in, if I just wanna go over halfway and shout hello from the top of the bridge, if I want to actually get in the pond with him. That's also a choice.

I've learned that becoming more human and more kind often means standing your ground with love, not anger. Boundaries can be an act of love.

What's one lesson from your mom that you want to carry forward?

The first thing that like comes to mind is, um, the kind of open-mindedness to things and sitting with things and having empathy towards a situation and responding with that empathy. Yeah, so I'm gonna change it to empathy, 'cause I think that was like the biggest thing that each of us have been very lucky to have that inherently, but it's also been a very learned trait from my mom and from watching the way that she moves through the world and has carried herself. And I think definitely in the situation of when I came out, when Grace came out, when I was going through my, uh, whole set of struggles, you know, there was never a response that even if the initial response was like maybe shocked, there was never like a follow-through in that response that felt out of turn at all. Everything was very well considered in a way that she moved through the world and moved through parenting and raising each of us, you know, and obviously all 4 of us are very, very different humans. And so, you know, that took a lot of empathy and it took a lot of not coming from a reactionary place and like trying to learn and grow from those things. And so just seeing that modeled. Has allowed me, I think, to move through my interpersonal relationships with a little more grace. And, um, yeah, I think that's like really, really important. So, yeah.

Well, since you took empathy, I guess I'll do a different one. Um, I would say probably the next biggest influence is the lesson of like loving unconditionally and just how everyone deserves to be loved unconditionally. And I guess learning the impact it has to, you know, not do so, uh, whether it is like you're not doing it for someone or someone's not doing it for you, um, how that can impact a person. We've, I feel like, seen those impacts, but I feel like so much of this podcast too is teaching people to love unconditionally. Um, and it's something I wanna continue to do in my life because, I mean, I obviously love my family unconditionally. Um, I guess it's not obviously because that's why some of this podcast is needed. Um, but it's just at the end of the day, no matter what, you know, These are your friends, these are your family, and you should be able to love them without any sort of restraints. And I feel like just that's so much of what I've been taught through, like, by my mom is just loving people, um, and giving people that love, you know, and how much that can affect a relationship and just like showing someone a little bit of love and a little bit of kindness and showing them empathy and giving them room to grow comes from loving them unconditionally.

My last question is, what do you hope people take away from learning her story?

Um, that they should buy the Patreon and the book. And that, yes, definitely something down the line, but not to be doing all this, but beyond the financial piece, I think, you know, the overall themes of this conversation of empathy and love and growth and evolution, but just taking away the fact that like, no matter where you're at, it does— not to imply that like everyone's struggling, but whatever relationship you may be thinking about when you're like listening to this, realizing that like it can get better when you meet it with understanding, with empathy. And, you know, you've already taken the most important first step, which is to just be trying to understand it and engage with it in any way. Um, cuz it's so much easier to just ignore it and compartmentalize it and put it away. Um, but by engaging with this content, you're like already taking that first step and that's by far the most important thing that you can do. So just stick with it.

I think, I think there's so many different takeaways, especially for like, there's so many different people that could be listening to the podcast. But I think one of the major ones is there's always like a space for you. There's always going to be someone out there and just no matter what, know that people understand and see you and you are not alone. Like there will always be this space and there will always be other spaces out there. Um, and it sucks that sometimes they're really hard to find. And sometimes it can feel like there is no one else out there that can be possibly going through what you're going through, but you're not alone. And whether you're a kid going through something, there are so many people out there, or you're a parent. My mom's got great advice, but there are always people there.

Thank you. I, you know, I really, that's my hope too, is that people take away from this that they're not alone. You know, one of the things that I think is so important about the world hearing your mom's story is for them to know that it's really hard as a parent to choose your kids over your parents and your family. And like, how many parents and families are getting stretched thin and stretched farther apart in today's climate? And, you know, feeling supported and making that decision out of love instead of out of a place of fear and anger is, you know, one of the things I feel is really unique about your mom's perspective is that she's not telling people to go burn bridges. She's saying, you know, step away and be with love and love your children as fiercely and as unapologetically as you can. And that, like, to let that love fuel every step that you take in your day and to allow that to be what helps you make the best decisions around parenting. If your younger self were listening to this, what would you want them to know?

Well, the first thing that comes to mind is that you are worthy of being seen, heard, known. To not be afraid to use my voice. That it is okay to speak out or speak up. I think I'd want her to know that she was going to be okay, that, you know, this, uh, she wouldn't be in survival mode forever, um, that she would find her people even if it meant she had to birth some of them. Yeah, that she's strong and powerful and resilient and kind and loving, and there's nothing wrong with her.

Okay. And on that note, my last question is, what do you hope people feel when they hear your story and show up to listen to more human, more kind?

I hope people feel hope.

I hope they feel permission.

I hope they feel inspired and empowered and validated and seen and allowed just to, you know, to be fully who they are.

Love doesn't erase pain. It simply makes space for it. I've learned that both can exist at the same time, and that truth has changed how I move through the world. As we close this 6-year anniversary episode, I want to say something simple and deeply true: Thank you. Thank you for listening, for learning, for unlearning, for breathing through the hard moments with me. Thank you for choosing to grow, not perfectly, but courageously. Thank you for helping this space stay more human and more kind. I want to thank my kids for not only helping to make this episode possible, but for making everything that I do possible, for being each one of them so spectacularly unique and wonderful, and I am just— I am so grateful for who they are as human beings in this world and for our relationships. And I want to thank my husband Steve for everything that he has done to support me, for being my best friend, for being the best partner in parenting, and a Huge thank you to Samantha for everything she did to make this episode happen and do all of the marketing magic that she does behind the scenes. So very grateful. My hope is that you walk away from today's conversation with a sense of hope, permission, and validation. Permission to get it wrong and to repair, to hold boundaries that honor your humanity, to love without losing yourself, and to rewrite the stories you inherited. 6 years and 200 episodes in, and what I know for sure is this: becoming more human and more kind isn't a destination. It's a way of moving through the world with grace, with curiosity, and with a heart that stays open even when life feels sharp. Thank you for being part of this unfolding journey, this community, this practice of showing up with more humanity, more kindness, first to ourselves and then to each other. I'll see you next time, and I'm so grateful to be walking this path with you.