#81 | 7 Ways Parents Can Support Non-Binary and Gender Fluid Teens With Empathy, Courage, and Connection

Welcome back and happy 2023! I hope your holiday season was nothing short of magical. I am borderline giddy to share today's episode with you. This is the first ever panel discussion on Just Breathe. The 3 beautiful humans you are about to hear share all you need to know about themselves within their discussion and within the show notes, of course. My daughter Gray, my dear friend Kate Versage, and the insightful Autumn Graham come together to discuss the topic of gender fluidity. I know you will not only enjoy, but likely learn at least one new thing as you listen to their very thoughtful discussion. Welcome to Just Breathe Parenting Your LGBTQ Teen, the podcast transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child. My name is Heather Hester, and I am so grateful you are here. I want you to take a deep breath and know that for the time we are together, you are in the safety of the Just Breathe nest. Whether today's show is an amazing guest or me sharing stories, resources, strategies, or lessons I've learned along our journey, I want you to feel like we're just hanging out at a coffee shop having a cozy chat. Most of all, I want you to remember that wherever you are on this journey, right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone. So thank you so much for being here today. I am really, really delighted to have the the three of you on the podcast because you offer such interesting and cool and authentic just life experience and stories. And I'm just grateful that you are all here to share this with my listeners. So we are going to start out just kind of really basic and see where we go from there. But I would love for you to kind of weigh in because this is a topic that I think it's very, very confusing when people hear the word non-binary, when they hear the word not gender fluid, they really don't understand kind of what those words mean, how they're different, or if they are different, right? And so I'd love to know kind of each of your takes on, on those two and what your thoughts are.

Okay, I can start off. So what I've been thinking ever since we got the, the topic to talk about, one of the things that I was thinking of is I would always imagine, first off, the term non-binary. Like, what does that mean? That means I— how I imagine it is kind of like computer language. You can imagine, imagine the zeros being male and the ones being female. And if you have that on a number line, for example, this being zero, this being one, everything in between those two numbers can be classified as non-binary. But I feel like at the same time, that's also how gender fluid— gender fluidity works, where it can be, it can be all across it, which is where I think a lot of the misunderstanding comes from inside of the two terms is non-binary can be used as an umbrella term to describe everything outside of male and female. But I, I do feel like genderfluid is also sort of an umbrella term where it implies the same thing as non-binary, but it does— just how fluids work and liquids work is it moves back and forth between— where when I used to identify as genderfluid, it would be where Sometimes I would feel really masculine, like when I was in marching band and color guard. I would love to perform and I always felt really masculine while doing that. But other times, like when I went to homecoming with my friends, I felt very feminine and that's where I identified as a woman. And I think that's where a lot of the understanding needs to come from, is non-binary can be used to describe any almost anything aside from male and female. Genderfluid, it includes a lot, all of non-binary, but also the two binary terms where it just fluctuates back and forth because I feel like inside of that sometimes I can identify as being non-binary, but I can just as, just as fluid works, you can go, not, sorry, not that, you can, um, sometimes, some days you can go and feel masculine or male, and some other days you can go and feel like a woman, for example.

Thank you. Yeah, great. Would you like to add?

Yeah, I think that a lot of, um, what Autumn— I resonate a lot with what Autumn is saying. I think there's an energy that a lot of people experience, and I think it's important to recognize that each person's feeling towards that energy in that moment at that time, recognizing where someone is at that particular moment of their life is important. I always approach things from the ability of saying, like, if you— if somebody identifies as genderfluid or non-binary, gender non-conforming, I think the most important piece of advice I could even share is to ask that person, "What that means to you?" Simply because what gender fluid means to one person is not going to be what it means to the person standing next to them. And I think when we're talking about concepts having to do with gender identity, we need to understand that all of the terminology that is existing, all of the umbrella terms All of that can very much mean something different to every person you ask. I identify as transmasculine. I use she/her/he/him pronouns. That can confuse people a lot of times. And I think, I mean, I recognize that. I recognize how someone can say, okay, you're transmasculine, why don't you just use he/him pronouns? Because I also I am much older and therefore was raised in a different time. And, you know, I'll be honest, I'm 46 years old. I've grown up pretty much being called she/her my entire life, being called Kate my entire life. And I want to kind of circle back to something Autumn said earlier off camera that really resonated with me. In that idea, um, because I'm comfortable with who I am, if somebody was to say she or he, somebody was to call me something different, honestly, for me, because I know who I am, it doesn't have as detrimental, let's say, of an effect on me personally as it might have on somebody else who identifies as transmasculine and as he/him, if you misgender that person, that person, you know, what they are experiencing in that moment is their emotions and their feelings, and they need to be respected. For me, if somebody was to, let's say, misgender me, I may not be as upset about it because Hearing she/her, really, it's just a word I grew up with, and it doesn't necessarily feel like it's a part of my identity. It's just a word. You know, that's why I am someone who's not choosing to change my name, or I, you know, I've talked to you about it extensively, Heather, like I have no desire to go through hormone replacement. I don't have a desire to have any additional surgeries besides having top surgery because that is something for me, that's the only thing I need because I inherently know who I am on the inside. But that has taken a long time and lots of years of growth and work and really understanding. Um, we talked about labels, right? And how important labels can be for some people. Some people really need those. Especially youth might really need those labels, and I think it's very important we honor that. But some people don't, and that's okay too. And I think the bottom line in this entire conversation of talking about gender identity is really respecting where each individual person is in their life, in their journey, in their acceptance of themself. Of what they need. And I think that asking people what they need in moments every single time is critical in you evolving as a human being just as much as they're evolving on their own journey, if that makes sense.

Yeah, I, I agree with that wholeheartedly. I mean, a lot of it, what it comes down to is inside of the topic of non-binary and gender fluid It's also extremely important for all of the parents out there to understand that if in terms of understanding your child or whoever it is you're, um, or whoever it is you have a relationship with, is a lot of it boils down to exactly what Kate said, is you need to be able to under— to see how they see it. Because for me, my perception of how gender fluidity, with me sometimes feeling like a man or sometimes feeling, um, like a woman. For me, that can be feeling masculine or feeling feminine, but for other people that can quite literally mean feeling like a man and feeling like a woman. And that's a lot of what it— yeah, how it boils down to is where it's really so, so important that the parents understand how their child perceives it, especially because how I've seen it, especially among my friends and among other people, is whenever someone comes out to their parent, it's a really sensitive topic to deal with, both for the child and the parent, which is why I feel like it requires a lot of— sorry, a lot of attention to deal with, which is where it's so important in this time to respect what your child's going through because, I mean, they're literally questioning their identity. So that's where it's, um, that's where it's just, it's important to know, in addition to non-binary just being an umbrella term and gender fluidity encompassing basically everything, is it's so important, especially going later on into this podcast, is I really do urge the parents and whoever, whoever else may be listening to take what you— sorry, to take what you do from this podcast. But it's also really important for on their part to be able to go to their child, to their spouse, to whoever it may be, and be able to talk to them and understand not only our perspectives, but also their perspectives.

Yeah, um, as you guys have been talking, I guess it's kind of come to me where it's really important, like, obviously to have some sort of understanding of labels and of, like, just what it means to be LGBTQ and to research that but then in the end, it does come down to each individual person, and it's— you can't fully support anyone without asking them and knowing them and learning about them personally. Um, where I think that is— there's like upsides and downsides to labels almost, where It's great to be able to put that label on there, like saying you're non-binary, but then having that miscommunication almost of, "Oh, hi, nice to meet you, I'm non-binary," but then they have an understanding of non-binary while you have a completely different meaning. So it can be Uh, can kind of be misleading for both people, um, because they might not know what to do with that information then, and you're not getting respected because, um, the label isn't fully encompassing kind of who you are as a person. Um, and I think a lot of people, at least in my experience, always like try to find a label that fits them, and they're just— there's not always gonna be a label. And I think that's a hard thing to accept sometimes. Like, I, I've been trying to find labels for myself for years, and I keep changing them because just none of them really fit. And getting to a point where you can kind of understand that is helpful. And how you, Autumn, you just, you say, I like guys. And that's a great way to go around it because it's hard when, especially if you use multiple pronouns or you use one and it's kind of like, how am I supposed to say a sexuality if there's nothing that really fits? So it's tough and there can be a lot of miscommunication on that. Um, yeah, yeah.

And that's something I've realized, especially in my own journey, is even now, it's like, as I've said many times now, is I don't identify with anything. And that's where, at the same time, for people who aren't well who don't have a lot of knowledge inside of the realm of LGBTQ is they're like, so what are you then? And that's where for me, just as you were saying, Gray, is it's really hard to find the correct term to say. 'Cause right now, I'm like, literally a few days ago, I was thinking like, am I gender nonconforming? Am I nonbinary? Like, what am I? Because even some of my friends are like, oh my God, you're trans. And I'm like, Okay. And I don't, I don't really know how to deal with that, where that, that's also making me think with a lot of the labeling culture that, that goes on is yes, it is very beneficial for people, especially for those who don't know who they are and those who are trying to understand. But I feel like it is also very harmful whenever someone's trying to understand themselves and Some people, like for bisexual people, for example, I remember a while ago, I don't know if it's still happening now, but I remember there was this huge fight where people were saying bisexual, bisexuality, and pansexuality were the same thing, but oh no, they're different. And then there is this huge argument, argument of, but of bisexual people who have a preference for men over women, or vice versa. And they're like, oh, am I straight now? Am I pan now? And it's, it is very beneficial, like terms are very beneficial, but at the same time I do, just as I said, it is hard to navigate around them, especially with big terms. Like I know gay, for example, just overall term used to describe basically anyone who's LGBTQ, but now it's there was MLM and WLW and all of that is someone getting into that. It, it really does. It forces them to almost identify an imposter syndrome type thing where I do feel like they can feel like, oh, I guess I'm gay, but I still like women. Or they're trans and they're like, yeah, I'm a trans woman, but I still feel masculine. And it's a very hard type of thing to deal with where the LGBTQ, the community is very accepting and it's embracing who you are on an individual perspective. But at the same time, inside of that, there are identities and stuff that some people feel obligated to fulfill, which is very sort of, it's, it's just difficult to navigate. And I would love to hear what you guys think of that as well.

One of the things that struck me that both of you were talking about, and I think, haha, as being the older person on the panel, things hit me a little differently than they might sit with the both of you. And I think too, when you had started talking about parent perspective, I really want to address that because as someone who is a parent, and someone who has had to come out to my mom, um, in different stages of my life, I think that there's a lot here for parents to understand that especially sexual orientation and gender identity, um, can be ever-evolving. And I think if we can try as human beings to just engage in and work with people, whether they're in our own family systems, their friends, their neighbors, community members, and the idea that no matter who you're speaking with, if they are identifying a certain way, right, we are to, whether it's labeled or not, it is just about trying to respect with with good intention where someone is at in their journey. Parents, I know from my own work as, as working with many parents who have children who identify as LGBTQ+, trying just to get them to understand that I know you want answers, right? If your child comes to you and says, this is how I'm identifying, there are two things that take place. Your head starts reeling as a parent. And what does this mean? My understanding of trans means this, my understanding— and Gray, you pointed out, right, my understanding versus your understanding of the exact same terminology can be two completely different things, which is why I often encourage parents, one thing to ask, what does that mean to you? So that I understand fully what that means, but also taking a step back and knowing that your child may not exactly have the full understanding for themselves at that moment, and that the beauty in some of these labels is trying to navigate a little bit about what does this feel like, what does this mean to me. And so your child may not have all the answers, and that is Okay, and, and I know for the three of us, we have the answers for ourselves, but we're not speaking on behalf of all the people in our community because even within our community, and this is the part that can be very hard for people to understand, even within the own LGBTQ community, there is a lot of butting heads and because of the way someone might identify, saying you are not, right? Someone wants to pigeonhole you within your own community and tell you that, "Eh, oh, right, Autumn, you said somebody will look at you and say right away you're trans." Or someone might say, "You're not trans enough." Or someone might say, "Oh, that sounds like it's gender nonconforming to me." Well, guess what? The only person it actually matters to is the person you're speaking with. But within our own community, those struggles can even happen. And I think it's important for people who are not a part of our community to understand that as well. We fight even within our own community of trying to understand each other. As someone who's older, when we constantly are adding all these new labels, I'm even like, wow, okay, this is awesome. This is brave. This is incredibly amazing that all these young people are coming up with new terms to try and relate to and understand themselves. But I too can be like, whoo, that's another one I got to try and understand. Because when I grew up, there was like only three. You were either lesbian, gay, or bisexual. Trans didn't even exist. It, it did, but it didn't exist in the education and the understanding of what does that mean. And I think the beauty of— for all of us, no matter where you are in your journey, no matter where you are in terms of your identification, if you can take a second to try and help someone with good intention who is asking you, what does that mean to you? Helping them to understand a little bit about what it means to you to identify that way is, is where we're going to start to build that education piece. Because really, personal experience, knowing people, having these intimate conversations, that's how we educate, right? That's how we learn to help people know that you don't have to put somebody in a box just because you hear this term. That makes sense.

Yeah. Um, I mean, I feel like a big part of— I think what you don't realize when you come out is how much explaining you're gonna have to do for the rest of your life. It is not a 'Hey, I'm whatever. I like women,' or, 'Hey, I want to use some other pronouns.' It is— you will constantly be questioned, and I think it's a good and bad thing. It can be— it kind of depends. But like, the main thing I feel like I can say to someone who has just been come out to is to respect like you were saying, Kate, to respect the person who is coming out, 'cause if they don't feel comfortable, then they can't— like, if they don't have their own space to try and understand what's going on with themselves, they can't even begin to explain it to someone else. Um, and if you are someone who really wants to support your kid, your spouse, your friend, your cousin, whoever it is, You have to be willing to listen and just, if they aren't ready to answer questions, then that's just being there for them and it's kind of like, "I don't understand yet and that's okay because I know you aren't ready, like you don't understand yet either and I'm just willing to be here for you in the sense that we're both not sure what's going on, but I support you in that, and you're just ready to listen. And if they don't want questions, then you're just ready to listen, that you're just there and okay with the fact that you might not understand for, for a while. And, um, that you stay respectful in the way where if you have questions, you can, you can ask like, hey, are you ready? If not, that's fine. I'll write them down and I can ask you when you're ready. Or just listening, because they might just need someone to try and figure it out, because it can be confusing, especially when in our own community, people try to force things on you. Like, the community is super supporting until they're not. There's— it can be really great to be a part of the LGBTQ+ community, and then and there are times where it feels like everyone's fighting over what something might mean when, as we've been saying, it, it means 100 different things.

And, um, you can feel like an outsider in your own community. Great, I agree with you.

Yeah, exactly. It's, um, especially with— and I know Autumn, you brought up bisexuality— like, the amount of time I was I don't know if I've ever said this to anyone, but I was scared to be bisexual. Like, I am— I didn't want to be bisexual because there's so much, um, like dispute over every— like, gay people hate bisexuals and straight people hate bisexuals because, oh, why can't you just choose one? And I didn't want to have to deal with that where everyone is mad, like your own community, and then people outside of your community can't just let you be yourself. And that was something that I think is still going on, where it's like, if you're straight— if you're a bisexual woman, oh, just be straight. Or if you're a bisexual man, it's like, just be gay. And there's a lot of that going on that can be really tough for people.

Yeah, I feel like inside of that also with the sort of, if you're a bi woman, just be straight, is also a lot of what I've seen online especially is when I used to identify as a gay man, for example, is so from what I've heard from other people is I have the stereotypical gay boy voice. Where it's very high-pitched and feminine. And that's the sort of stereotype for gay people, gay men, is where it's like this petite feminine version is where I've also heard from a lot of other people is those gay men who are not, um, like small in build, they have a masculine voice, they have whatever, is they aren't seen as gay, and they're seen as, oh, you aren't gay, you're straight, or, oh, are you sure you're gay? Because they don't have like this stereotypical presence of this, like, um, of this gay person with a really high feminine voice. And that's also where it's like, if you go into the LGBTQ community, you can find so many different stereotypes not only inside of appearance but also in like personality. For example, where, um, gay— like gay men are supposed to be social butterflies who are super feminine and blah blah blah blah blah, and they love wearing dresses and whatever. But there are some gay people who are really comfortable with who they are. They just like men, which is— it's difficult to go around that, especially since there are so many different stereotypes associated with each and every single term. Like, non-binary can come off as you have to appear androgynous, for example, or gen— or like, being a trans woman means you have to have breast implants, or you have to have your penis cut off, but being a trans male means you have to have top surgery. And that's where it's really difficult to navigate, where it's— there are certain expectations even when trying to find yourself, which is where I feel like imposter syndrome goes into a lot, is where when I identified as a trans woman, I felt like I wasn't supposed to have my penis, for example, where it's just, it's this battle where just as you guys were saying, you feel like an outsider in your own community, where I'm just, I'm just trying to fit in, but how am I supposed to fit in when the people who are supposed to be accepting me are the people who are telling me what to do?

Yeah, and I think the important thing for young people to take away from this is that, um, and parents of course, The community, the LGBTQ+ community, and of course my vast years of being a part of it, it's such an extraordinary— it's a second home, it's a family for many of us that we did not have when we were coming out. And so I think one of the critical pieces here to understand is that yes, no matter who you are in the world, there are always going to be pockets of people who may not understand you, people who want to force you to take on certain identities or roles within those labels or constructs. But truly, our community is, is an extraordinary work of art, quite honestly. You know, whether, whether we're all coming together under all of these different identities and really trying to understand each other. I just want to— I kind of just feel like the biggest takeaway for me when we talk about these things is, is just that same piece of going down to the bottom line and understanding that everybody feels different, everybody understands their identity differently, but that identity in and of itself can be evolving. You know, I love that Gray pointed out the fact that coming out, it's a lifelong journey. It really is. You can come out when you're young, you can come out again, you can come out again, and every time you come out, it's okay. But there's always going to be somebody you're coming out to simply because people don't always understand. Or, or what we think is just stuff people are talking about all the time. There are pockets of the world people have absolutely no idea what we're talking about. And so that's the beauty of this, right, is that if we can begin to help each other understand that our own process of coming to terms with who we are, how we identify, is okay in that moment, wherever you are in that moment is okay. Then hopefully we will help create just that supportive, healthy environment for that person to continue to develop and grow, whether that's at 7 years old, 16, 20s, you're in your 60s, I don't care. People are human beings and we're always evolving. That's the beauty of being anybody. Like, you have the ability to evolve as a human being. Take it, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, I, I want to add to the fact that, um, it— as much as like there is, there's confusion in any community and there's always going to be that, but I completely agree that the LGBTQ+ community is a beautiful, beautiful thing and I'm honored to be a part of it. Um, like, might sound funny, but I wake up and I'm very glad that I'm gay or whatever I am.

I don't—

I still don't know, but I'm really happy that I get to be like— that I can be me. And, um, and as much like we look out in the world and there is so much going on, whether it is hate crimes or there's problems where we might not have the right to get married, those sort of things, but seeing— and how terrifying that is— but then seeing that there is a community, there is a community who is willing to fight for that, and that there— we are never alone in this, you know? Like, no matter how alone you might feel in your coming out process, or if someone just can't understand, there's always there is a group of people who's going to understand. And you might not find them yet, but there is that comfort in knowing that there is someone out there that knows exactly what you're going through. And there's so many people who are willing to fight for our rights. If you're not able to, or if you're not out yet, or if you don't even understand, you just know that there are people who are doing that and who just want you to be safe in being yourself.

Yeah, I do feel like that's just a brilliant thing of the community is, yeah, just as you said, even like if you identify as trans, if you identify as, um, ace/aro, um, asexual and aromantic, if you identify as gay, if you identify as straight, even if you're not in the community, there are no matter where you are, even if everyone around you doesn't even know what the term means, there is someone out there who knows who they might not even know who you are, but they will accept you and they want you to be yourself, which is for any of the listeners out there is I feel it, it is really important to know that If you ever feel alone in your identity, feeling like that no one, even if your parents are like struggling to understand who you are, or your work colleagues, or your, um, or whoever it may be, it's, it's just, it's so important to know that you will, no matter where you are in life, you will find someone to be able to support you and be able to make you feel— or to not make you feel comfortable, but to let you feel comfortable in your environment.

Yeah, that.

Yeah.

I think we needed a good pause after that. That was It's so true. And I think as I've been sitting here listening to you, one thing that's come up for me as the parent, um, this is such an important conversation. And, um, it's also the guidance from I mean, you basically just laid out a playbook for parents. Thank you very much. Because these are really— I mean, you've made it so much easier. What does a parent say when their child comes out to them in any capacity, right? Whether it's gender or sexuality, what can I do to support you, right? It's that whole letting go of like the permission to let go of the control, which is needing to understand, right? We don't need to understand. All we need to do is, what do you need to hold you? Right? Like, what do you need? How can I support you? I respect that this is a process. And I think, you know, to that whole point that all three of you made, that this is a lifelong process, right? This is a— and just as— and I love too, the other point too, that it is ever evolving, because that is such a sticking point that I think people can really freak out about. Like, but, but they came out as gay and, and now they're saying that they're bi, and, um, now it's not real, and what do I tell Grandma? And oh my gosh, right? Like, you know, like, there are all these things that— like, there's this stuff though, right? I mean, this is like—

it's funny because—

and we laugh, but it's so true and real. And being able to be like, every human being evolves. It's not just human beings who identify in the LGBTQ+ community. All of us do, right? I mean, I'm, I am a straight cisgendered woman, and I have evolved a lot in a million other ways, right? So people, human beings evolve. So I think that was such a great point that you all made in very different ways of saying, hey, let's not freak out about this, because this is part of the process. And so just being able to kind of take that breath and be calm and be curious, right, like always approaching with curiosity and just saying good intention. I'm here, I'm here, right? Good intention, curiosity. And I think if you kind of repeat that in your head, right, that helps you let go of all of the freakout stuff.

Heather, can I also add that I think it's important as members of the LGBTQ community— and you know I've said this to you many times I've said, I say this to every youth I've ever worked with as well. I think it's also, it's a two-way street, right? Because we're here as members of the community asking to be heard, to be listened to, to be respected, to have good intention when asking us questions. But I also think that there is an error to the other side of this where it is that especially when, when we are talking about young people and their relationship with with parents or caregivers, to also be mindful as a young person who identifies as part of the community, wherever that is, to know that sometimes, right, our parents, our caregivers are trying to come from a good place, are trying to be understanding, but it may not always come off that way. And so there's— I like to say give, give grace, right? Give, give time, give some understanding that your family members are also evolving and you cannot just expect an instant change to happen. Even in the goodest hearts of people, we need time to process. We've spent our lives as members of the community trying to figure out who we are, does this feel right, does that feel right, before we even come out to ourselves, let alone to anybody else, that we need to give some time for process to the people who are a part of our lives. And to know that oftentimes when you are met with hate, to understand really the bottom line is it's fear, and that fear component can drive the way somebody talks to you, treats you, engages with you. And I just want our young people especially, but parents as well, caregivers, to be mindful of that, especially as you get older too. It's just something I've learned as I've grown and evolved, that when we're young, our identities are so crucial, and, and we want to just be and we want everyone to just accept us right then and there, but it can take time. It doesn't always mean that relationships have to be severed immediately. Sometimes that room for healing and growth can produce wonderful things on the other side, and I speak that from own personal experiences. Um, so that's just something I, I just want to let people know too, to be mindful of the other side of things. As well. We're people engaging with people. We just need to all be a little bit more gentle with each other.

Yeah, that's, that's one of the things that I wanted to go back to what you said, Kate, is when you were talking about how the parents also are just trying to understand you. One of the things that I wanted to say, that I wanted to say to all the parents listening is it's okay if you're confused, or if like, if, if you're upset or whatever you may feel, those emotions are valid and it's okay for you to feel these things. For both you and the person who's coming out to you, it's such a major change. Like your entire life is just a vault, like completely just changing completely, which is where You, I feel like it's really important to know that what truly matters to your kid, whoever it may be, is to let them know that you're just trying to understand them and be able to understand them as your, as your child, as another human being, basically. And yeah, just being able to, um, to realize that you are valid in whatever emotions you may feel. It's okay to feel upset that your child's coming out. Like, the world that you guys all grew up in is— I, like, being a child myself and having to come out to my mom, is— I understand from all the stuff that happened back in the 20th century and everything that everyone had to grow up through is I, it's, it's understandable why someone may be upset that their child came out to them or why someone may be confused by what it means or whatever it may be. And I would love to hear what you think, Kate, especially because I know you are the older, the older member.

Obviously I will not speak on behalf of my entire community, but yes, my own personal experiences are that really, you know, even for my mom, my mom, my mom has always said that she's known that I should have been born a boy since I was about age 2. But coming out to her in college, mind you, I didn't come out until college, because I grew up in an environment that unfortunately there was another person in the household that didn't make it very comfortable for me. So regardless of that, I took a little longer to come out to my family. And when I told my mom, and I came out as lesbian, because that was again, the only identity I really had to choose from. I figured I must have been born a female, so therefore I have to identify as lesbian, because I like women, right? So. And then that was very hard for my mom. Again, even though she's known her entire life that I probably was going to be gay, it still was hard for her to process. Here we are much further from that. And now I'm coming back out to my mom as transmasculine. And of course, with the understanding of, she knew that I should have been born a boy, I know I should have been born a boy. But it's still a lot to comprehend and grasp. And I think, I think there's a few things. I think we'd be surprised at the amount of older adults in the world who are extremely accepting and it doesn't faze them. Grandparents, right, who we think, oh God, please don't tell your Nana, don't tell your grandma, grandpa. And we are surprised at actually how they react and are they can be the most supportive. Because of everything they've seen. They've seen so much hate and change, and they want their grandkids to feel like they're in safe spaces. I like to call them brave spaces. It's one of the points I wanted to make, that is, as adults especially, whether you're a caregiver, a parent, creating a brave space for any child to feel like they can evolve and build confidence in That is crucial, right? That's the thing that anybody who's on this podcast can take away. Create a space in which our young people feel brave enough to come to you with however they are identifying and honor that and also make sure that they know that they can continue to keep evolving in that space you've created. Because helping build self-confidence is the key part of helping reduce fear for that young person and, and get them to a place of being able to own who they are and not feel guilt or shame about who they are, because there's nothing negative to feel. There should not be. So I think when we're talking about adults now, Autumn, I think we are— we've obviously educated so much that parents who are becoming parents now have so much more education and understanding in what they're seeing when they're seeing their little girl play with certain toys or their little boy dress up a certain way. It's not about instantly going where in my generation way back in the day, right, it would have been like, oh my God, my kid is gay. It's like instant, right? Oh, she's playing with the boys' toys. Oh my God, or he's wearing a dress. But really what it means today is that those adults, those caregivers, are just opening themselves up to exploration. We are giving children the freedom to explore and understand the world around them in the way that they need to. And recognizing just because your little boy puts on a dress, or your little girl wants to play with things that are boy-identified still because of— in this gender culture that we're in, um, does not mean that you need to go miles an hour in a certain direction thinking that they're going to be a certain way or not. It's just about letting them be who they are again in that moment, and that by exploring, you may have a boy who's more sensitive in nature and understands women in a whole different way than if you would have cut him off at such a young age and said, "You can't be that way." Or the same thing for a woman who's a young girl who's playing with toys and science and, and playing out in the dirt and the mud and getting— you think yourself as a parent, "Oh God, not my little girl," right? But what if that little girl then grows up to be fierce and strong and independent dependent. The beauty is that we are not pigeonholing kids into these identities. That's the beauty of the parents now, I think, is it's expanding and knowing that just because your kid may act, look, or identify a certain way at such a young age does not mean that you have to put them in this box of just expecting horrible things for their life. They could have very beautiful lives if you just give them the permission to be who they are. Let them experiment. Let them find the freedom of who they are in those moments instead of deterring them. I think, I hope, Autumn, that answered a little bit about how I feel from where I was as a kid to what I'm seeing. Even I, I have a 5-year-old daughter. I don't know how she's going to identify 10 years from now, 5 years from now, 30 years from now, but I want to at least be able to create that brave space for her to allow herself to find whoever it is that she identifies as. And I'm hoping, you know, because even as someone who's a part of the community, I question myself, am I doing the right thing? Am I saying the right terminology?

Am I—

should I not be putting pronouns on my kiddo at this age? Should she be allowed to choose for herself? And I think too, when we look at those things, again, if she says— like, I try and use language with my 5-year-old as someone who identifies as transmasculine. I try and tell her that Mama was born a girl but feels like a boy on the inside. She's 5. That's really all she kinda needs to understand right now. And that she knows Mom is gonna have surgery, but she understands it from the perspective of Mom is having surgery because she wants her outside body to match the way she feels on the inside. And that, again, creating conversation with your child that's simple enough that if she wants to ask questions, she can, but if she doesn't, We don't have to go any further than that until she's ready. And I think if we can start doing that more, just as a community in general, you know, I think that we open a lot of doors up to a lot of people. I hope that— again, Autumn, I hope that answered your question.

Yeah, it did. Thank you.

Thank you for asking. I appreciate that.

I think something else that I noticed while talking, while you were talking, is I believe, um, one of the things that I recognized is I really resonated with what you said about the pigeonholing kids is I've noticed especially, well, I think back with some of my siblings with my mom is I hear from, so I'm the youngest in my family. I've heard from my, um, eldest sister. Elise, that my mom used to be a major helicopter parent. Like, she used to say that we couldn't watch Harry Potter.

How you feeling over there, Mom?

And for me, it's like, I'm like, oh my God, because I did not grow up like that. Because I was allowed to do whatever I like and look at how I turned out. Like, oh my God. And it's, it's, it's so weird because I realized that it's such an amazing thing to let your child be able to explore who they are themselves. Because I feel like if I was under constant, like, helicopter parenting, I would never have found my interest in physics, for example, because I love science and physics so much, and it's amazing. And I've also been researching, like, um, history, and there's this really medieval topic called alchemy that I'm really interested in that could turn, um, what was it, lead into gold, I believe, which was— oh, all that stuff, that's a whole different conversation. But the point is, if I— if my parents had continued to be helicopter, helicopter parenting with me, I feel like I never would have gotten to the point where I am right now, especially with my identity and who I am and being able to fully accept who I am with all of that.

Yay, Mom!

Yay, Mom!

Way to go, Mandy! I'm right there with you. It's okay.

Yeah, really, I, you know, honestly, part of the whole evolution, right?

Do I?

Yeah, we, we evolved.

Yeah, love that.

That's awesome.

We continue to evolve every day.

That's right.

Oh my goodness.

And let me tell you, process, even older people like Even older people like me are grateful to the, to the parents who are younger, who are raising young people right now. I am so grateful for, for what you do and what you bring in your openness and your support and your affirmation to your children. So grateful. So, so thank you from me to both of you as moms.

Thank you.

Wow. You know that you were a huge part of my evolution, so Thank you. Thank you. A lot of thank yous going on.

I feel like, um, I feel like that's all we can really ask, you know, like as people coming out, like just that you're willing to evolve as a person for someone else. Um, that willingness to like, that openness to change, uh, because I think I think a big part of things is the— that causes some problems is that people aren't willing to have change occur. And that's scary sometimes. And I mean, I completely agree, change can be really scary. But once you're willing to be a part of someone else's change, that you're willing to change for someone else, for, like, to grow with them is when beautiful things can kind of happen. I feel like, I don't know, just speaking out of our kind of journey as a family, if everything that happened with my brother didn't happen, our family wouldn't be like it is today. And I am I don't know, like it would have taken me longer to figure out who I am and the environment. I don't know, like if it would have changed where I felt as comfortable to come out. Um, so, and that's, it's such a big part of it all, kind of just the environment that happened, like that you create, that's kind of up to you. And going back to what you were saying, Kate, like how you raise someone and how you— like, the environment you raise them in is kind of how they're going to grow up. Like, that's, that's what they're going to know for a while until they reach kindergarten, preschool, and they start kind of being entered into a different world. It's up to you kind of how, like, what they see and what they know. And if you can start educating people from that age, it's so interesting to me to see kids who were raised in that kind of way where they knew right off the bat what, like, it is to— you might look one way, but you feel a different way on the inside. Like, being told that from, like, age 5 is Great, because then they have that education, you know, and education is such a big part of being able to accept and to be there for people, or to be there for yourself. Like, if you are taught at a young age, like, just, uh, some sort of understanding in that it's okay to be a little bit more feminine or be more masculine and just you can feel what you're feeling, then like there is so much that like you can explore with that education. And I think that's such a cool thing. Um, like that's why I started exploring kind of my sexuality is because I started to get an education on it, and that's kind of like where it all begins, I feel.

Yeah, that's another thing I noticed as well, is inside of education and stuff with pronouns, especially just bursting in popularity over the last however many years, is I always see videos and TikToks of parents getting mad at elementary school teachers for teaching their kids how to use pronouns. 'Cause pronouns are a basic part of English grammar, but there are so many people, so many, so many just people who are against LGBTQ who are like, oh, why are you teaching my, my daughter pronouns? Like, that's not okay. When like, it's, it's just, that's where it feels like it's just a lack of education where it's like, what? Like, it, it doesn't make sense.

It's also fear, you know. I think it's fear-based.

That's such a fear thing.

Yes, especially like, great, when you're talking about teaching little kids. I think really a lot of adults instantly go to a place of, well, if you start talking to my, my children about gender identity and sexual orientation, oh my God, that means they're going to be that way. But let's be honest, Kids inherently know who they are, usually by age like 5 or 6, like they already kind of know, and all you're doing is opening up the door to understanding people around them. There are some people, yes, who may take longer in time to learn and evolve about who they are, but really bottom line is if, if you ask almost everybody in the population, You know, by age 6 or 7, did you know who you were, who you were attracted to? Bottom line is they pretty much did, and nothing you can do would alter that. I was raised in a heteronormative environment around nothing but people telling me that I had to be straight all day long, but I didn't turn out straight. And I think we need to understand that. Do you know what I mean? That's the piece I think people get so scared about. Is really, if we start talking to kids about this stuff in, in middle school, in elementary school, as early as kindergarten, then what does that mean that we're doing to our children? It just means that you're giving your children an opportunity to be more of who they want to be without the fear that someone's going to hate them if they are who they are. That's what it is. Kids carry around that fear of thinking they're freaks, thinking they're weird, thinking they don't belong. Why are we doing that to them? Let's give them confidence to feel like whoever that they are is okay, period. And you're the one who has to evolve and adjust and know that just that basic little education can make a huge difference to these children, truly. I think we'd see a lot less suicidal ideation. I see— I think we'd see a lot less self-harm if we just Give kids the opportunity to understand that no matter who you are, it's going to be okay. I'm going to love you no matter what, period. I'm going to love you no matter what. It's going to be hard for me. I might have to educate myself. I might have to adjust. I might have to do my own work, but I will not stop loving you and providing a space for you to feel safe in, period.

Yes. That's, that's what I've seen among my friends at school as well, is so many of them are afraid to come out to their parents because they're like, oh, what if they don't accept me? Because also in at my school, a lot of my friends are, um, are first-generation immigrants, primarily from India and stuff like that. And a lot of them are like, oh, my parents will hate me because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever reasons. And it's— I, I can't really speak on it because obviously I am white. So it's a very— it's hard for me to— for me being someone who is openly, um, non-binary and stuff like that, it's hard for me to navigate it with them. But from what I've seen and what I've heard them say is that their parents are wanting them from, from what they're, from what they're saying, their parents are wanting them to be successful in the United States and be able to provide for whatever families they may have later down the line. To, it's the point where a lot of the time they don't feel comfortable telling their parents, not only because they're afraid of how their parents will react, but also because they don't want to disappoint their parents and not live up to what they want to what their parents want them to be.

That's well said. Yeah, absolutely. I think cultural standards are honestly an entirely another layer of looking at everything we've discussed today because there are definitely cultural components here that we would need to understand. Um, so thank you, Autumn. For pointing that out.

Absolutely.

Absolutely. Well, I'd like to give everyone kind of an opportunity to— excuse me— to kind of— we're going to wrap it up. We're just about at an hour and have kind of close with just your closing thoughts, wrap it up thoughts, whatever you want it to be, and just know that I'm— I am so grateful that all of you gave of your time to be here and to share so authentically. So thank you.

Thank you as well.

Thank you very much.

Of course, of course, darling. Would you like— I'll let Gray start.

Um, I guess, I don't know, just closing thoughts. For any of the people listening and parents listening, it's scary for you and for the person that you're listening for. And I think understanding that is a good first step and just being willing to have conversation in which you just need to listen and kind of respect them, um, and just if all you can do is be there for them, then that's all you can do for now, um, and knowing that it might be a little— a long process. And a long journey for both of you, but in the end it's worth it.

Um, yeah.

And yeah, leading on from that, it's, it's important to know that in someone's journey in understanding who they are, it took me a few years to understand who I am. For some other people, it may take them a few months or something, but for other people, it may take them decades. And that's the beauty of it is you really just kind of take it by ear and go from there. Because as you go forth being in such an emotional environment, I guess I could say, is you, both the parent and the person coming out, really just got to understand it's a lifelong process. No matter how long it takes them, their emotions are constantly developing and evolving, they will continue to evolve even if their sexuality never changes, if their identity never changes, or even if it changes 10 times or something like that. It's a process that will be ever evolving, and that's just where— yeah, just take it by ear, follow the waves.

Um, I just— first, I want to extend my gratitude again, Heather Hester, to you because having a platform like this is critical, especially in the state of our country. So being able to put this information out there from people who are actually living it, I'm deeply appreciative. And I am also very grateful, Gray and Autumn, to the both of you, because I want to extend my gratitude to our young people for your bravery, for coming out in a time that can be very scary right now as well, but for taking the steps. You're fighting for all of us as well, and I see that, and I appreciate it, and I applaud it. Takeaways for me: it's very important that no matter who you are and where you are in your life, you understand that labels and terminology should not be put into boxes. Take the time to get to know each individual person you are speaking with. Ask them, do not be afraid to ask questions, as long as it's with good intention, about how somebody might identify and what that means to them. And then, of course, for our adult community, our caregivers, all I ask is that you continue to work on creating those brave spaces where young people, older people, anybody feels like they can come to you and feel safe enough to come out. And honoring the idea too that we are, again, piggybacking on Autumn, we are ever-evolving human beings on both sides of the conversation. And so as long as we give each other grace, I think that we will be doing a lot of work.. And I'm just grateful. I'm grateful for the love and support that have come through and the stories that have been shared today and every day. And I am very grateful to my trans community for everything that they have endured. And if, you know, we can also take a moment today, especially for me, to just reflect on everything that the trans community, especially the trans community of color, has gone through as we are honoring today Trans Day, Transgender Day of Remembrance, would mean a lot to me and many members of the community. So thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you all. Thanks so much for joining me today. If you enjoyed today's episode, I I would be so grateful for a rating or a review. Click on the link in the show notes or go to my website, chrysalismama.com, to stay up to date on my latest resources as well as to learn how you can work with me. Please share this podcast with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone and remember to just breathe. Breathe. Until next time!