#97 | Courage to Embrace Every Identity: LGBTQ Ally Guidance from Dr. Ronnie Gladden

Welcome back to Just Breathe. I am really happy you are here today, and I'm just grateful you've taken a few minutes out of your busy schedule to listen in. And I cannot tell you how excited I am for you to listen to the conversation that I got to have with this absolutely extraordinary human being. And I learned so much, and I know that you are going to too. And there were just a million questions that I had. So as you listen, I'd love to know if there are other questions that come up for you, because I certainly feel like this is a guest that I will have back again and would love to just continue exploring just everything that they know and, and who they are and what they're doing in this world. So I just want to give you a quick, a quick bio, a quick background on my wonderful, wonderful guest whose name is Ronnie Gladden, Dr. Ronnie Gladden. They are an international speaker, an actor, and tenured college professor. They regularly speak about identity, diversity, and inclusion for K-12 schools, universities, and nonprofits, including the Ronald McDonald House Charities, the City of Cincinnati, Northern Kentucky University, and more. They hold a doctorate in educational leadership from Northern Kentucky University. Where they defended and published a dissertation on diversity leadership and intersectionality. Dr. Ronni also appeared in The Rachel Divide, a documentary about complex identity which premiered at the Tribeca Film Festival in 2018 and now streams on Netflix. One of the things that Dr. Ronni and I got to talk about and that you will get to hear us talk about, but I want you to run out and not even run out and buy, click on Amazon and order it today. Their book, which is called White Girl Within, is one of the best books I've read this year, and I absolutely— I learned so much from this book. I was so moved, and it really also encouraged me to do some very introspective thinking and to really look at myself and, and who I am in this world. So I encourage you right now, there will also be a link as always in the show notes that are attached to this. But without further ado, I want to introduce Dr. Ronnie Gladden.

Welcome to Just Breathe Parenting Your LGBTQ Teen, the podcast transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child. My name is Heather Hester and I am so grateful you are here. I want you to take a deep breath and know that for the time we are together, you are in the safety of the Just Breathe Nest. Whether today's show is an amazing guest or me sharing stories, resources, strategies, or lessons I've learned along our journey, I want you to feel like we're just hanging out at a coffee shop having a cozy chat. Most of all, I want you to remember that wherever you are on this journey right now, In this moment in time, you are not alone.

So, Ronnie, welcome, welcome to the show. I'm so happy that you're here, and I am— I've been so looking forward to this interview and this chat with you, and I have about a million and one questions that I want to ask and things that I just think are so unique and thought-provoking about what you do and who you are and the barriers that you have broken. And I'd really love to start with talking about your book, which is called White Girl Within, which, if that's not an intriguing enough title, I mean, come on. Yeah. So I mean, just so fascinating. So I'd love to know, just kind of to start off, just some background on what brought you to writing that book and what made you really realize and start to embrace all of these different pieces about you.

So I had an identity crisis. I was in my partner's house. And for whatever reason, I just had a lot of emotions all flood me at one time. And at the time, she was a resident to become a doctor, so she was already psychologically oriented, and she had friends that also were older than us, and they were mental health professionals as well. So we had a unique sort of support system that was there, but she wasn't even in the house. I was just there, and I had this— it almost felt like a looming deadline of sorts to try to get a handle over the fullness of my authenticity. And so I don't know if I was spurred along in part because of the new partnerships and people that I had in my life along with just reflecting from issues of my childhood. So what happened is I just started writing. There was a notebook that was nearby, pretty small notebook, and I'm welling up with tears and I'm just like writing out this situation about what, what I was. And this is late 2000s, so there wasn't quite the cultural vocabulary like it is now with respect to cis and hetero and gender fluid and trans and whatnot. I mean, those terms certainly existed, but, you know, they weren't as accessible like they are today. And I hadn't yet started to contextualize on that in a, in a doctoral program yet. So I'm just writing from a very instinctive place. So just being flooded with emotions and just having this reckoning that, you know, I'm in this relationship and there are things that are certainly about about it that I like, and we're good for each other. But at the same time, like most people I think realize, when you're in a relationship, there's no hiding. You are confronted with yourself just as much as you're confronted with the person that is your plus one. And because I hadn't done a lot of the work that maybe more people had done growing up up being hetero or just being more— just owning whatever their identity is in the first place. And me not doing that, I grew up acting, I grew up performing. So it was like I was grappling with what I naturally was. And then when I was animated, I'm portraying other people. So there's yet again another diversion. So a lot of the work that most people would do growing up I hadn't done. And it was like being super late on this big homework assignment, so to speak. And so that's, that's what ended up happening. And, and it's just like the subconscious took over. It just, just started just writing.

I love that, the whole free writing, free writing idea, right? And just allowing. Oh my goodness. So I think that's fascinating because I think that that's something that I know from, for me personally, I didn't do any of that work growing up either. I think it kind of depends on, you know, kind of where you, what type of family you grow up in and where you grow up and, and, you know, obviously so many pieces that come together to create that. And, um, I'm just wondering, as you did that work and as you wrote that, you started writing and which ended up being letters, right? That's part of part of your work, right? And part of what you teach is writing these letters. What did you, you know, kind of, what were the things that really started coming up that you were able to say, oh, okay, this, like the light bulb moments, what were those?

I think it was the light bulb moments were like shining a light on what otherwise was siloed or was basically in the shadow. So whatever it is that I had to repress, because it's like, here it is, born in the body of a Black male and having certain expectations that go along with that, a very narrow set of expectations. And a lot of us have that, but because of being a minority and a minority within a minority, I think I felt perhaps even more of the weight of what it was like to be marginalized. And so therefore I had to find a way to exist with that, but then to take what otherwise was repressed and find a way to put it someplace, wherever, wherever that is. And work with abstraction. So in writing, it was like I was able to tap into those abstractions. So to speak about how I really felt my hair was supposed to be, as opposed to substituting for a hairstyle that maybe had a little bit of a tweak or nuance to it that would allow for me to convey some originality. And in doing that, that was me trying to have a bit of an approximation of what I would do if I had the full license or felt that I had the full license to express myself, but only just a little bit. Whatever was repressed, suppressed, oppressed, it was like, let me draw it out through words. So it was like words and pictures coming together. So let me create a portraiture or try to begin to find a portraiture of what this internalized white female might look like. So let me try to approximate the weight, the height, the bone structure, the hair, the eyes. Let me try to approximate her voice. Let me try to approximate what she would do if she actually could be in three-dimensional form and what have you. So it was like trying to, to sketch a portraiture and to get caught up with a lot of lost time and trying to shed light on that. And obviously at the time with so many emotions, you know, it wasn't intellectual at all. It was, it was pure emotion. So it was, it was, it was what ultimately wound up being an approximation of the repressed voice. So it's like trying to work with conscious dialogue Black male subconscious dialogue, internal white female against unconscious dialogue that's maybe a little bit of the two, and then trying to approximate what those voices are like pitted against, I guess, unconscious dialogue and perspective of society. So, you know, so once I thought more about it, then I could articulated in that way, but at the time it was just trying to disentangle all these different voices and just trying to just get out of my head and get these emotions out.

Right. Well, and, and once you were able to do that— well, first of all, how long did that take you to do?

I started that penning it like I was describing in 2008. And the book was just published in January 2023. So off and on, not the entire time, because there was time I lost the, the book and moved and all that, but off and on it's, it's been about a 15-year process. So it's been a big chunk of my life, and I had no idea.

Wow.

It would take that long.

Well, I'm sure not. At what point did they begin to— were you able to begin to kind of like see the intersection and, and kind of begin to make a flow of who you are as a whole person, right? All these pieces, were you able to kind of be able to pull together? And does that make sense what I'm asking?

It does. Yeah. 2 years before that, starting to pin it. I did go to counseling for the first time, but at the time I was down and I just felt like my career— because I was very new in my career, you know, I just launched my teaching career and I was glad to do that, but, you know, I wasn't teaching in the way that I had envisioned. I started out teaching college in this little strip mall. It's like one of those for-profit colleges and it just You know, at first it was exciting, but then like 2 years in, it's like, all right, what am I doing? So it was more of a, you know, feeling dissatisfied with the lack of the career, even though it was starting. But pretty quickly in the sessions, the identity, my identity came out, which I did not expect to do. I just thought I was having a quarter-life crisis based on a lack of career gusto or, or the career taking off. And then that came out. I'm like, I couldn't believe that I had shared that with anyone. It was like, because that was with me since I was 4 years old, and I just thought this is just something I'm just— I'll just take to the grave and just deal with it. But it came out then, so I think that helped because there were some articles that the psych resident gave. One of them was interesting because I had mentioned Michael Jackson before because that was like a kind of obvious approximation, even though, you know, on record, um, Jackson affirmed his Blackness and never came out as trans. But for me, it was just like, here's someone that started out with a, a similar phenotype, a similar look, and they modified it and then got to a totally different continuum, you know, uh, different appearance on the identity continuum. So it's like, well, that is something that I can approximate. So the psych resident gave me this article, Why Michael Jackson's Nose Makes Us Uneasy. That, that's the title. And oh my gosh, yeah, that was it. That's the literal title, right? And I ended up— and it's a really good article— I ended up citing some of it in my, uh, doctoral dissertation, but that's the literal title of it. And it talks about— they were really harsh on him even though he had already come out with his vitiligo. They said, here's someone with a mutilated consciousness, and that was extrapolated to his face, and he's trying to escape his materiality. It was, it was really, really scathing. But, you know, In some ways I saw myself in that. Maybe there are some things that are mutilated, perhaps. I, I don't know. I, I just know that that's still my authentic truth. So that article helped in a way to begin to craft language and to begin to put a framework around this and conceptualize it. And so I had some of that 2 years prior, so there was a little bit of a foregrounding. And then it just so happened I met a doctor, and then that doctor, like I said, had friends that were psychologically oriented. So there were some discussions with that. And then shortly after, I entered into a doc program so I could then begin to really interrogate this against the backdrop of, um, you know, of an academic perspective, and began to create a lit review and find literature and all this. So then it just started to flow, and then it just so happened right as that was happening, then more of that cultural vocabulary was starting to show up, you know, in the world. So then there's like this reinforcement. So it's, it's almost odd that there was all of this kind of, uh, cultural and social backing, if you will. With what I was trying to work with, as well as other people too, as I'm beginning to really work to contextualize this. So, uh, I guess I lucked out that way. So that's kind of a little bit of the background.

Well, I think it's so fascinating. I think to that, but that last point too, that when you're able to— and I just would love to hear more of your thoughts on this— but it sounds like being able to see yourself or see pieces of yourself in society, right? Whether it's other people or whether it's books or movies or TV, whatever it is, whatever, pick your—

right?

But being able to see yourself or pieces of yourself, that was helpful.

That was extremely helpful because it's like at one level, who, who thinks this? Like, you know, you appear to me as a white woman, and if you told me or you went around saying that I really have this insistent, consistent, persistent feel or pull towards being a Black man, I mean, most folks, they're going to laugh you under the table. Other folks are going to be highly offended and say, here's there's someone that's appropriating, right, certain culture and whatnot. Um, how, how dare she do that, you know? And, and I get there's pain points around this, and, and this is not to excuse that, this is not to, to ignore that whatsoever, because that absolutely needs to be dealt with, you know. That's a part of the reconciliation Yet at the same time, you know, I don't think that we have to necessarily be beholden to what our ancestors did. Like, we are an amalgamation of people that have crossed over to where we are today, and they did that, but in so doing that, they lived their lives, and we're here. And I honor, I acknowledge the the heritage. I've got some, you know, East Indian and Black and all that, and some white. You know, I acknowledge all of what came before me, but this is still my time, my life, in terms of what I'm doing with it, what I make of it, what kinds of imprints are on me. And I think that there's a need to acknowledge that, and I think all of us can have that. So, um, but yeah, I mean, if you were to present the opposite way, it's like, who, who does that? But human diversity is broad, and a lot of things aren't always talked about, a lot of things aren't always convenient, and yet here we are doing it. Like you said, we're doing it so we can just breathe, you can breathe, I can breathe, everyone else can breathe, and recognize there are things that are inconvenient and improbable, but it doesn't mean that it's impossible, you know?

Correct, correct, and that it doesn't exist. And I love that you use the word, you know, to to honor, right? To honor what came before and be the, you know, step into our fullness while we are here. Why, why are we here? And I just think that I really, I love, I love everything that you're doing. I have like a million things that are running through my head right now, but I appreciate so much the fact that you have been and are being so transparent and so authentic about your process. And, and there is something in that that gives others, gives anyone who listens, anyone who knows you, anyone who reads your works, the permission to like take a step back and be like, oh, Like, there is— I feel like there's, you know, there's such a huge conversation right now about, you know, the binary versus a spectrum, right? And it's so clear with any kind of, you know, research, education, that it is a spectrum, and it is a beautiful spectrum. And so the fact that you can speak to that and give such— I don't know, I keep going back to this word permission, but I, I just feel like it's, you know, to other people, to kids. I just keep thinking about like these kids because I do talk to so many parents of, you know, teenagers and young adolescents who are like just kind of being able to articulate these different things that they're seeing in themselves, right? And they're feeling. And I just love that there, there's a, the, a role model in you and that you have been so beautifully able to articulate. And I, I've think that is such a— goodness, you are meant to be here. Like, this is like such a— just your voice was meant— like, you were just guided, and the people that have been put in your life at the right time— oh my goodness, I just think it's really one of those cool things when just listening to it, I'm like, yeah, those people were totally meant to be there at that time. Like, that was the right person at the right time to allow you the space to do what you needed to do and kind of step into that next phase of being. And, um, so bravo. There was really not a question in there. It's just more of a—

oh, thank you—

an acknowledgement. Um, but I— you talk a lot about— one of the things actually that you talk about in your book is how true identity, and there's some speaking about the intersectionality, right? But there's also talking about how identity transcends that intersectionality, right? And I, I'd love to talk about both, so you can pick which one you want to talk about first. But I think both of those topics are so, first of all, not understood well, and Second of all, I'd just love to hear kind of your thoughts on them. So how about if we go with intersectionality first? Because I think that is a word that you, you know, you see, you maybe read in an article or whatever, but maybe don't completely understand what that means. So if you could talk about that a little bit and then we'll go to the second part.

Absolutely. So just to put it plain, My take on intersectionality is putting all of your parts together, your ancestry, your whatever makes you a minority or doesn't make you a minority, put your religion, put your zip code, put what you— where you work, your education, no education, if you graduated, agitated, whatever it is, and you put it all in the conversation. So like when we were talking about my ancestral lineage, there is that, I honor it, but then there's also how I see myself and need to function in this time that I'm given. It's like I'm putting that in conversation with what came before me. At first I thought I would need to try to erase it or superimpose something else. On top of that to be accepted or to exist. But now I realize it's a conversation. And I think that for other folks, if you are to look at what is inside of you that makes you diverse and maybe look at your— some of your parts on the outside, and there could be a difference between the inner and the outer But if you were to put that in the conversation rather than masking it with hair dye and antiseptics and sprays and braces and Botox and whatever it is, or, you know, Michael Kors or Gucci or whatever, but actually put it in a conversation, embrace the diversity living inside of us in order to embrace the diversity living outside of us. If we did that, that's like a full expression in my view of the intersection. Intersectionality. It's trying to find a way for all of the disparate parts to, to work well. And it does make us who and what we are. I mean, I know a little about you. I know that I believe you are an American, and you're a woman, and you are podcaster, and you have an audience that you know, our LGBTQ+ parents. I mean, just right there, those are some of your intersections. And perhaps those are among the parts that work very well because you've put them in a conversation and you're generating impact. And I think all of us have that. All of us have various points of ourselves that make up the intersection and we're able to do it. But there are things that may need more work. And a part of what's in the book are those parts that need more work, a better conversation, better integration. So yeah, so the intersectionality is trying to find the conversation with all of the various parts of our identities, if that makes sense.

It does, very much so. It's that idea of and, right, instead of but, right? Or like the, like, oh, I really hate that part. So trying to like stuff it down or cross it out or erase it, like you said, it's the like embracing it and being like, well, that's part of who I am, right? That's— it's an and. These are all ands. So when you bring it all together, you can be in the world, right? You can be— that's how you can be truly authentically in the world.

That's right. So if we all had a proverbial calculator and we're typing up all of what makes us what we are. It's like we're separating it. We get all the computational elements that, that make us what we are— our age, our weight, where we live. Like I said, all these parts, we add it up, and then we start to see the equation. You know, for some folks, they're able to, to do the math a lot easier than others, you know. And most folks struggle with math, so that should tell you something. Right, right there. So, so it's a, it's a work in progress.

It definitely is. It definitely is. Well, and I think, you know, there's definitely— I would say probably most people have pieces that have been stuffed down and, you know, shelved or whatever you want to say.

Especially now, especially now when just as we are having more emergent voices and legislation that recognizes this, and even ascending to a protected class in some ways, then you see the, the pendulum switch, you know, shift the other way. And so that, that makes it confusing, you know. A lot of hard-fought victories, you know, marriage equality, all these things that really are just a handful of years old, that quickly is almost always, uh, well, not always, but, but perhaps in jeopardy. Now, there are some things that have happened federally to, to codify marriage, but in terms of, um, other parts that grow out of that, you know, trans identity, there's no Equality Act. Just to think that some of those things are hanging in the balance after just getting to a point of, of more full humanity, it's kind of boggling because because that's a really short amount of time.

It really is. I mean, and I, it's a little dizzying. I mean, I feel like it's like almost, it was such a quick, like snapback that because there are still people who will say to me, well, it's so much better now. And I'm like, oh, but it's not. Yes.

And in some ways, but it should be, we should be advancing and not struggling to get back to where we thought we had just graduated from, you know.

Right. Well, and I think too, I mean, I'm sure you, you do the same where I, you know, following all the bills across the country that are being proposed and then argued, right? Like there are more every week. And right. So to me, like, That's not okay. That's where we, everybody, we have to all stay so vigilant and figure out what to do. I mean, I feel like that's also a big thing, and perhaps you can shed some light on that, our thoughts on what people can do, because I feel like especially a lot of, you know, I work with parents, right? A lot of parents, but, or allies, right? So allies a lot of times are like, well, How do I help? Because I feel like I'm not, you know, there's that respectful piece of I'm not part of the community. I'm a support person and I want to do something. And I've had this, and we talked just briefly about this earlier, but, you know, I do always love doing different things for Pride Month, but this year I'm kind of approaching it. I'm feeling very much like there's just such a battle right now and there's so much like the energy around it is like, I want to acknowledge and celebrate, but I'm also like, how can— like, we can't really stop to celebrate right now because there's so much that needs to be focused on and thought, and people need to be educated on what is going on. So sorry, that was a total rant, but I'd love your thoughts on, on all of that.

Sure. And just to finish up the last part about transcending the intersectionality, what I would add to that is, at the end of the day, and this does dovetail into what you just also brought up too in terms of what one can do, you have to really be careful not to be consumed with the politics. Like, you don't want your identity to be lost in that. Yes, we need to be vigilant, and there's some political savvy that you need, and you need to know how to, I think, work through the mechanics— legislative mechanics, cultural mechanics, whatever it is— so that you can see certain bills change, certain spaces out in the community change. But recognize that as you're working through those mechanics, they're just that. You don't want to get ground up in it or lost in that because it is a lot of work, as we're saying, to work on identity. You know, just 9 months it takes us, most of us, to be born. We have some preemies, they come a little earlier, so they're accelerated. But it takes a lifetime, right, to draw the full person out of the baby, to draw the full woman out of when you were the Mbit, the full non-binary trans, transracial person that's me out of this. I mean, it takes a lifetime for that, so it's delicate. So it's this balance of having political savvy but also personal allegiance to your own identity, meaning that you don't have to act stereotypically or act a certain way just because you may be a part of the alphabet community as some may try to just, you know, pejoratively say. You can be an original still. You can defy the stereotype, you know. If you're a gay guy and you really like Cheetos and steak and you like to hunt, you can still be gay. You don't all of a sudden have to be in the musicals or what have you just because you think that's politically expedient. Or whatever it is. So it's like, as you're working with the politics, that's why I say don't let that eclipse you. Like, still be you. Now, if you do like the musicals, that's fine too. I graduated from an art school. That's fine. But I know that there's more plurality in that. So I offer that. When it comes to what people can do, I still think even if you're not in the community, that that's the thing. Meaning you may not be the L, the G, the B, or the T, But if you're an ally, then you are still a part of the community. So if you're an ally and think, well, I'm not really in the community, I think that's right there almost speaking to a kind of rift in a way that it's already starting a little bit, even though I'm sure it's unintended, but I think that's already starting with a little bit of a deficit and like, oh, that's someone else. If you're an ally for something, I think you're just as much, you know, a part of, of the community, even if you're not the L, the G, the B, you know, or, or the T. So, so maybe that's some headspace to, to get in, and that might make a difference fundamentally. I think another part of it is what are your other intersections? So beyond being just an ally, what else are you that you can leverage? You know, what other goods do you have? And because that's also probably a part of the answer in terms of whatever else that you are that maybe is hiding behind the cloak of just ally. So if you are this person that's at 4-H, or you are this person that's also in the church, or you are this person that's working someplace in an institution, that itself is probably a pathway to where maybe there's something you can leverage out of those places that might help to inform your allyship, your ally walk, so that then it's not just siloed when you're in a support group and I'm just the ally here, right? You see what I mean? So, so it goes back to embracing what you are, your intersections, even if you're not gay or lesbian or bi or trans or pansexual or sapiosexual, whatever it is. You can be cis hetero and still have plenty of intersections, understanding that, doing that work, and that, that probably would offer some more, you know, insights.

Absolutely. Wow. Everyone—

that makes sense.

I know it totally does. No, I'm literally blown away because I have, I mean, so many times have been told, either told or read to be very careful as an ally to not— like, you are an ally, like you're over here, right? You're not part of. And so I've always kind of envisioned like what I do is like a, like, you know, support, like I am here to like advocate, right? And to hold and to learn and, you know, all of these things. So I, that per— I love that perspective because I think there is definitely like this piece of me that's like, clearly there's a reason why I'm such a fighter, right? For, for everyone in the community. So I love that. And I, I hope that everybody listening is really taking— you might have to stop and rewind and listen to that again because that was really powerful and really just so thought-provoking. Holy cow. I'm just like, a little bit set. You really like threw me off my feet a little bit there. So thank you.

You need, you need some tea too. We got— I do.

I need some Peach Tranquility tea. I can't wait. I'm gonna go right after this and get my—

you should go get some.

Yeah. And every time I drink it, I'll be like, oh, thank you. Like a million billion things. Oh my gosh. Thank you. Holy cow. And I also just, the other thing that I, that you just said, which I think is so powerful, and just helpful is stopping and thinking, because I think we do get so like wound, right? Like, oh my gosh, this like hair's on fire, freaking out, and kind of taking that step back and being like, okay, I am well equipped in these ways to make a difference too. And it doesn't have to be like a world-changing difference. It can be a conversation with one.

Exactly.

Right.

Yeah.

And that is what is so important. And really, like you said, leveraging just who you are already.

Right. Yeah. Because I think you might feel an obligation if you're just an ally, like you have to work to construct an identity all around that, you know, and You are already a lived person and a person with experiences, and I could see how that could be off-putting to a lot of folks. It's like, this is a whole other bucket, and now I've got to fill this up. And it's like, well, no, I mean, you, you already have a life, and draw from that and, and use that. And that probably would be more, more inviting. At the same time, what, what I get is, you know, there are still certain sensitivities and sensibilities to be mindful of. We're all learning with that. And so maybe some people may feel like there are parts of them that are inelegant or that needs a little bit more refining. I mean, we all have that and maybe that's a part of it as well. So giving some grace and recognizing that there are folks that are trying and they're trying their best. Obviously for those who aren't, 'cause you have plenty of trolls out there, they know full well what they're doing. Pushing buttons, that they're, they're misgendering people, uh, that they're doing all the things that we don't celebrate, that we don't want done. I'm not talking about that, but it's like, you know, maybe you, you aren't versed in all the vocabulary or all of, you know, in terms of acknowledging all the language that, that you're supposed to have when it comes to interacting with someone, but, but you, you can get there. So you give a little grace and, and you, you work towards that. So we're not always here to be right, we're here to get it right.

That's right, that's right. Well, and I think it's always— and so it's going to be messy, right? I mean, I say that all the time, it's going to be messy. So just embrace that, know that you're going to make mistakes, but it's so much better to make the mistake while trying than be too afraid to try at all.

Exactly. And then go back and then we're where we are now, having to work to reclaim some of the victories that were won. And it's like, well, not fully, not completely. Now you have something else, something else that's there. So I think the book will point to that just as much as to my own story, because in the book, you know, there are questions that are for those who read it to reflect on their identity. There's an identity wheel that's in there. There's questions through an academic lens, through a pop cultural lens, you know, through the lens of a book club. There's like different angles one can do that. One could begin writing letters to themselves just like you see that there are letters that are in the book between the white girl, between the Black guy and all that. So yeah, it's, it's, it's interactive in the book and it's interactive in the way we're talking about it through the podcast, interactive in life. So we all have a lot of work to do, apparently. I guess we do.

We do. Well, you know, it's the whole idea of, you know, once you stop growing, what happens? We don't want that. I don't want that option. So I'd like to forever be learning and growing. For as long as possible. And I'm so glad that you circled back to the book because I just cannot highly recommend it highly enough. And I just want everyone to go buy it and read it because it's not just a read, right? Like you just said, it is interactive and it will challenge you to really think and examine who you are in this world. And I love that. And to, and to love that person for all of the pieces, all of the ends. Um, so I'm just so grateful that you wrote this. And we have a 15-plus year journey.

I would never have thought, would never have thought, right?

Well, you know, I think some of the most beautiful things come out of what we never would have thought.

Yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah, I just— yeah, if you go with it, you let yourself be open and go with it.

Yeah, right. Oh my goodness gracious. Yes and yes. Oh, and yes. Um, well, before we wrap up, is there Anything else that you would like to add or share?

Wow.

Um, I like what we were just saying in terms of, you know, being open and giving grace as we work to understand each other better and as we work to be more authentic and vulnerable. Only when the time is right, of course. Only when you've grown to that point. Only when you know, you think it makes sense. I mean, don't put yourself in danger, you know, maybe talk with a mental health professional, have some guidance. But yeah, I think being open is, is a good thing.

Is a good thing. Yes. I am so grateful you've been here today with me. And I'm just, like I said at the beginning, I was so looking forward to our conversation and Thank you so much for being here.

Oh, my pleasure, my pleasure.

Thanks so much for joining me today. If you enjoyed today's episode, I would be so grateful for a rating or a review. Click on the link in the show notes or go to my website, chrysalismama.com, to stay up to date on my latest research resources, as well as to learn how you can work with me. Please share this podcast with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone, and remember to just breathe. Until next time.