Gen Z Voices on the 2024 Election, Allyship, and the Future of Democracy

Welcome to More Human, More Kind, the podcast helping parents of LGBTQ+ kids move from fear to fierce allyship and feel less alone and more informed so you can protect what matters, raise brave kids, and spark collective change. I'm Heather Hester.

Let's get started.

One of my greatest lessons as a parent, and certainly one of the bigger shifts I've made in the past 10 years, is realizing and really hearing the unique perspectives of our kids' voices. As a Gen Xer, the parenting model I observed was that children were to to be seen and not heard, especially girls, and that children were considered empty vessels for their parents to pour their ideology and belief systems into, to mold them to their liking. A child being allowed to express themselves or explore their interests was virtually unheard of. Fast forward to the early 2000s when Steve and I were lucky enough to to start having children. What began as something quite subconscious grew into active conversations between the two of us. At the time, it seemed so novel and daring to break from our parents' parenting models to create something of our own. Of course, we now know that tens of thousands of others were doing the same thing, but I will never forget my Heather Hester letting me know she approved in her oh-so-subtle way by telling me that she liked how we were consciously parenting. Consciously parenting. That has stuck with me all these years. Now fast forward to 2017 when Connor first came out. We thought we were so on top of things. So connected with all of our children, and we got chopped right down to size. We were so ill-prepared and suddenly confronted with a million uncomfortable feelings and thoughts that we didn't even realize existed even a day prior. And in those first moments came one of our bigger shifts, or maybe it was just an activation of capacity, But whatever it was, we suddenly were able to hold space for our discomfort and know that we needed to process and work through it and prioritize Connor, what he was telling us he felt and needed in subtle and not so subtle ways. The rose-colored glasses and the blinders had been removed, and even though it took time for us to adjust our eyes, so to speak. Once we did, we were then, and continue to be to this day, struck and in awe of the beauty, of the possibility, of the range and depth of not just the information, but of our children and each other that we had never seen before. We could clearly hear and see and learn from our children. It opened countless avenues of communication and understanding. It brought us all closer than we ever knew was possible. And so while this intro is much longer than I originally intended, I hope it offers some insight into how and why I see things the way I do and offers you the knowledge that it is possible I love hearing the thoughts and perspectives of my kids. And so when Grace and I were discussing the upcoming election one day and she suggested that I bring two of her friends on to share their perspectives, it was a no-brainer. I know you all love these episodes when I bring kids on as well. So without further ado, here are Grace, Luke, and Lars.

Welcome back, everyone. I am so excited to introduce 3 extraordinary people today, um, and welcome them onto Just Breathe. That I have to, have to say, you've, you've heard Grace before on the show and it's been so enlightening and exciting. And today she has invited 2 of her closest friends to join us for a really cool conversation and a look into how this age group thinks about what's going on in the world right now, and particularly thinks about this upcoming election, um, and just what it's like to be college kids right now in this moment in time. So super, super excited to just introduce and welcome onto the show Luke and Lars and Grace. And thank you so much for agreeing to be here on this early Sunday morning.

Of course. Thanks for having us.

It's good to be here.

Good to be back.

Yes.

I'm so happy.

Good.

Well, I'm gonna just kick it off really quick because I think this is a big question that a lot of, a lot of people are curious about, which is where do you get your news? When you're like learning things about what's going on in the world, like what is your kind of go-to, like, This is what I find to be the most reliable.

Yeah, I can start.

Sure.

Um, I get my news mainly from 3 sources: NPR, New York Times, and The Wall Street Journal. Um, NPR obviously is the National Public Radio, so like, obviously that's, um, coming from the government. It came from an act in the '70s, I believe. So that, um, is a very reliable source. Um, it's often been scrutinized, I think, just because it comes from the government. But there's a great NPR podcast that I like. I listen to it a lot at the beach, um, to the dismay, of course, of all the patrons of the beach. And, um, I'd say that— well, that's obviously more analysis, but where I go to just get like straight news is going to be more the New York Times, which is obviously probably the most circulated newspaper in the country, one of the most in the world. It's an incredibly reliable source, um, for good news. Of course, it's also incredibly scrutinized, and a lot of people consider it a little bit left-leaning of a source, but still incredibly reliable, incredible. And then the third source is the Wall Street Journal, which is great for news, but it was bought out maybe in 2013 by Rupert Murdoch, who is a big business magnate who owns like Fox News and the New York Post. And he's, he like had kind of a conservative shift go into the journal. So because of that, I think that it's important to take a lot of the analysis and editorial with a grain of salt, but I think that the straight news is still very good with the Wall Street Journal because it's also a very famous and credible source.

I, uh, I won't claim to, uh, you know, read the paper every day. Um, I don't think, um, I'm not like a How do you say, like, I don't turn on NPR every day and like listen to the Daily Rundown. I will say I find my news most often through, like Laura said, I read a lot of the New York Times. I find a lot of my news through social media. And what I find is that, um, I will get pushed or, you know, I'll find an interesting article and then I'll do a personal, more like deep dive on it to find more reliable sources. Cuz obviously, you know, seeing someone's reaction to a, an interesting headline on Twitter, for example, is, you know, one thing, but it's not, um, It's not necessarily quality news. Something I also have done, like, thinking about for the past few years really is I think a lot of people, and myself included, you know, do watch or consume sort of like primetime media, like news coverage. And it's important to me that I get my news from like other places than just that. Because, you know, for better or for worse, almost all of that is, you know, it's editorial work. It's people sharing their thoughts on new situations. There's moments that are very factual, but I find, you know, if I want to sort of come to my own conclusions about something, I, it's not the best place to go, you know, it's, I want to see, you know, what the facts are and, you know, before I, before I hear people's thoughts. But it is nice to have, you know, things like that to, to open up a conversation in lieu of, you know, having like a bunch of people at a roundtable to talk to about various articles. So. Yeah.

Right. Did you like add anything?

Yeah, I mean, I pretty much agree. I always get, I get emails every day from the New York Times, which is super helpful and kind of draws my attention to some things that I can look further into. But finding a source that you trust, um, whether it is for just like a headline, like the New York Times or someone that you trust to do a deeper dive if you have more questions. Is really important.

Yeah, I think that kind of goes to my, my part B of this question, which is how do you discern really what is true and what's false out there? Like, how do you get to the bottom of, which I think all three of you really answered already quite well, which dispels, and I bring that up mainly because I think it dispels a lot of the thoughts out there that, um, your generation only gets your news from reading one headline on social media, probably TikTok, right? And, um, which no shade to TikTok because I, I do love TikTok, but I love also what all three of you said, which is I see something and then I check other sources that I know are credible and reliable and well-researched and Um, to learn more, to, you know, to figure out kind of what's true and what's false. And I think that's— I love hearing the level of discernment that you already have.

Fascinating.

That's amazing because I will speak for my age group and say that we did not have this level of discernment at this age. Some people don't even have it at this age. So, um, well done. Um, I think that's just incredibly— there's lots of words for that, but I will go, go on and say, I'd love to know, um, what issues are most important for you, not just specific to the election, but just kind of in general, like even if there weren't a major election this year, what would be the most important issues to you and why?

Well, I definitely think for me and probably a lot of people in my generation now, as we move into the workforce and into college, issues that have to deal with infrastructure and monetary issues are becoming increasingly more relevant to our lives. Just for me personally, I'm always kind of like, the bigger issues for me are how can we get free healthcare in this country? How can we get affordable housing? And like, how can we get free education or more affordable education and more student loan forgiveness and debt forgiveness? Because those are like, we're starting to see, you know, the price of college, the price of healthcare, the price of rent. And so that's definitely going to be a bigger thing moving forward. Well, I guess that's already been a big thing for adults and people realizing, but I think that, you know, Americans, um, including myself, um, pay a lot in taxes and don't always see a lot come out of that. And they want to see more come out of taxes so that they can have that trust, that built relationship between government and citizen. So those are probably my big issues.

I love that. I have kind of a follow-up question really quick for that, Lars.

Sure.

Um, because I think that is such a wise concern and a wise issue for you to be thinking about and really kind of pulling apart. And it's something that I know people of Older generations are like, oh my gosh, free healthcare. We cannot do free healthcare. And for many reasons they think that, and I don't agree with them, but I would love for you, if you have like recommendations for, this is why we're concerned about this. This is why we're thinking about this. This is why this is so important. And here are some examples of places that this has worked. Like this is because I think that's always the first pushback. Well, this doesn't work. This isn't gonna work. Why will it work?

Well, I think, and Luke, you can chime in too. I think that we are, I believe, one of the only developed countries in the high development list that doesn't have free or extremely affordable healthcare. If you look all across Europe, they're always making fun of us for it. They're like, we We can't believe you have to pay that much to get in the ambulance. It's always a conversation. And some of the reasons people won't think it will work are because of maybe concern out of private healthcare practices, the fear of anything that could possibly be considered more socialist and communist because of our American cultural heritage. And fears of that. Anything else, Luke?

Yeah, I mean, so I wanted to— I'll say my piece and then I'll share my thoughts as well. But I— this is something that is so interesting to me because, you know, we in America, for some reason, there's this sort of fear of socialist and like the word socialism, right? And I, I understand that people have heard this word in association with, you know, like a whole lot of maybe bad things in the past. But it's really hard to, to take it seriously personally because so many of them are like what we— so much of the biggest stuff that we see out of our tax dollars is like quote unquote socialist, right? Like, one of my biggest, one of the biggest things that you really see out of your tax dollars is like the federal highway, like the highway system, right? And it's like, you know, so we're all paying into a pot to provide a resource to, you know, to improve, you know, the quality of life for, you know, there's like all these, all these things that we already pay into, you know, Social Security, it's literally in the name. It's like we pay into these things and, you know, for like, you know, people have things to say about them, sure. But they, there's no doubt that they improve, you know, our quality of life. And it's, you know, it always confuses me, this argument with with like nationalized healthcare or like, you know, single-payer healthcare that like were— that like your taxes will go up and it's like, sure, your taxes would go up, but also you're not paying for insurance anymore. You know, it's not being taken out of your, you know, your paycheck or you're not paying that. You don't have to worry about, you know, the same, like, insurance is awful. It's so bad.

Right. Well, like all the deductible stuff and the, you know, what's out of pocket and yeah.

Yeah. Like, and also, you know, um, you know, Lars mentioned that the United States is one of the only, like, heavily developed nations without, um, free or reduced cost healthcare. And this is something that, uh, You know, we have like pharmaceuticals are so expensive in the US and it's partially because we're the only country really that will, that are dumb enough to pay like, you know, $45,000 for a pill. You know, every other country is saying, um, you know, hey, we're not gonna do that. Or, you know, we're gonna cover the cost, um, on behalf of, you know, our, our citizens. But the US is where they can go to basically price gouge. The consumer and make their money back. And I don't think that's okay. I don't think that that's something that we should be comfortable with. And it's only possible because, and I hate to sound conspiratorial, but the insurance companies, the pharmaceutical companies, it's all sort of when private interests are really the key factor there, it's not going to be in the interest of, you know, saving us money or making us healthier even. It's about, you know, making, um, making a buck at the end of the day. And I don't think that that should be the motivation behind our healthcare. Um, and I think that, you know, sort of moving to a more social system, um, would be, uh, just better overall. Um, if nothing else, would take some of the money out of, um,, you know, all of the healthcare system and maybe we would get less of those pharmaceutical ads on TV.

Right. Oh my, that's a whole other conversation.

Mm-hmm.

Well, I think too, like kind of to your points, which I'm just sitting here thinking, take that off the table and you, you make that easier for every human being, you know, specifically in our country. Mm-hmm. That takes away so much stress. So then you automatically increase the quality of life.

Absolutely.

And all that energy that goes toward worrying about, you know, healthcare or, you know, how am I gonna pay for, you know, this pill that I need next month, right? All of that energy can go into things that are positive or, you know, and something that that person wants to be doing with their life or just You know, whatever it may be. Um, but it's a positive shift in energy, which I think is so important. So important. And I hope, I really do hope that is something that in your lifetimes that happens. Um, I hope it happens before I'm too old, but you know, that, that, that is the great hope. Um, is there anything that you would like to— anything this has sparked for you?

Mm-hmm.

Um, yeah, I don't know. It's like bringing up the idea of, um, you know, people are afraid of socialism. It just sparked in my mind the idea that like there are so many people in our country and just in general that are afraid of things. Just because they don't fully understand it. And there's just a lot of, they, whether they don't understand it because someone's told them something different or because they've never looked into it fully, there's just a lot of not knowing and that causes fear and just more problems from that fear. And sure, there's a fear in knowing, you know, the more you know, the more you might fear. But it's more dangerous to be so uneducated, especially today. Um, and you know, just, if I came on here to say one thing, it is to be as educated as you can. And you will make, you know, at, at least you can say at the end of the day, whatever decision you come to, it's backed by understanding and not fear.

Mm-hmm. I absolutely agree. Mm-hmm. I think too, you know, like the fear of change is really something that has, at least in our generation, um, is something that we're, uh, I don't, I don't, I don't know, like sick and tired of. It's, you know, we definitely, um, you know, have grown up in an America that, you know, the status quo, you know, the sort of society that was so prosperous, you know, is maybe, was maybe, you know, a little bit behind us. And so when you're afraid to change and you're afraid to adapt and to, you know, like get with the times, you know, the status quo becomes— or the status quo of the past becomes very quickly outdated. And I think it's, you know, it's important to stay, like you said, to stay knowledgeable, to stay educated, because if you, you know, refuse to see the world for what it is, I think that that's— that can be very, very harmful, um, for yourself and for society as a whole.

Absolutely. Well, I think you all have a very unique perspective in that, um, you're post-9/11 babies. You have— your entire school career has been in the age of doing lockdown drills. And that being a very real fear. You lived through a pandemic. You, I mean, you've had some extraordinary things happen just in the 18, 19 years that you've been on this earth, um, that many people can, you know, that are of other generations cannot say that they've lived through. Right. Um, and social media. I mean, you've been here for the, the The birth of social media, the, you know, of all of these things that have just given you wisdom at a much younger age, have given you the opportunity to be able to see, um, so in such a greater way than ever before. So it's such a unique perspective that you have, and I think it's such a gift. Um, and it's one of the many reasons I'm just so excited about your generation because you guys are gonna be the one that, that's that you are going to change all of this. So every time I, you know, hear someone of your age speak or, you know, see, I'm like, like, everybody listen, because there's just so much wisdom and, and depth to what you all have to say. So I'm getting all teary-eyed thinking about this. Sorry. Um, okay, so we're gonna move on to the next question, which is, which one I'm kind of excited about. So I've Excited to hear what you all, um, so now that Kamala Harris is the presumptive nominee, official yet, presumptive, do you feel more hopeful about the future? Um, and why or why not?

Um, well, I definitely think there's two Conversations that I am seeing from Gen Z on the left. The first conversation, and I'd say the, the larger one, and maybe more where my beliefs lie, is that there's a shift in the energy in this election and things are more hopeful and things look better for the Democratic Party than they did previously. And then there's a minority, but it's a prolific minority, especially on social media, that believes that, um, Kamala is the same as— well, this isn't true, but they believe that Kamala is, you know, just the same as Biden, maybe even the same as Trump, the same as any of these evil politicians. She's not going to change anything and everyone's still going to be miserable, and you should not vote for her. You should either vote third party or you should write somebody else in, or you should just give up. And it's almost like they want this crazy revolution with a Red Army to start or something. It's like they— it's this belief on the far left that, um, that everything— like, that the greatest evil is capitalism, and so we can't take any steps beyond just uprooting the entire system. But I saw an interesting perspective on this. I wish I knew, remembered where I saw this from, but it was this idea that, well, in order to uproot everything, we have to send all of the most disenfranchised people in the country to the front lines and watch them get martyred for us. Luke, do you have anything to say?

You know, I see this too, and I I see this online a lot. I spend time on Twitter. I have a Twitter account. I do a lot of reading on there, and it's really interesting. Obviously, definitely the energy shifted when Kamala Harris was announced as the new candidate. And there's been this huge sort of surge of energy into the campaigns. And I'm so excited to see that because personally, you know, I, you know, I was like, I wasn't excited about the election. It's not that it wasn't, you know, something I was looking for, like voting wasn't something I was looking forward to doing. It's just that it was like, oh, you know, like I'm not super hyped. I'm not really like, you know, excited to go and, you know, vote for this guy. Um, I, I'm like, when Kamala stepped in, I was, you know, it's just, it's not that I, you know, necessarily, you know, am completely in line with everything she says, or, you know, that I like, you know, love all of her politics, but it's, it's just to me like, God, it's so, it's so good to have someone new in there for the first time in what seems like forever. Um, you know, it's not, um, I, I very much remember, um, you know, back in 2019, I guess, when And everybody was— all of the Democrats were trying to, you know, they were all running and they were all, you know, vying for this spot basically to beat Trump. And it was just, you know, I had my thoughts on that. You know, I personally, like, I was very invested despite not being able to vote at the time. You know, then watching sort of the most, the safest sort of candidate come out of that was really, it was frustrating, not because, like, I understand the circumstances, you know, the party needed someone that everyone could unify behind to sort of beat out this really great evil, but It still was just frustrating that like, okay, you know, we're, we got all these cool people who want to do cool stuff and we're going to get like the one guy who's just sort of, um, you know, the face of the party overall and not really, didn't really stand for much. Obviously he did a lot of great stuff. You know, we ended up seeing a lot more out of his presidency than I personally expected.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but you know, now that we have this sort of shift, uh, I think the energy is really back, especially in my generation, our generation. And like the, you know, people are excited. I think that's so important. And I definitely have seen, like Lars mentioned, I've seen the online pushback to Kamala's sort of candidacy. I've seen this sort of rhetoric from the very furthest left that, you know, like on key issues, particularly Israel-Palestine, you know, that she's not doing the right thing, that they're all terrible and blah, blah, blah. And my thing is, my personal philosophy on this at least, is sure, you know, they're not like, maybe they're not doing everything they want, like you want them to. And my problem is like, you can't, like, the suggestion is, yeah, vote third party or don't vote at all. And it's really hard because in the way that our system is set up right now in the US, barring, you know, some grand change that's, let's face it, not going to happen before, you know, in the next 3 months. Um, like we have a two-party system and it's, it's hard, you know, you know, because you don't necessarily get all of your opinions, uh, represented by, you know, the person you're voting for, but it's like, you gotta get some of them in, you know, and if your choices are between like one person who stands for maybe 80% of what you believe in, and one person who stands for none of what you believe in and stands against what you believe in. It's like, how are you going to come out here and say that you're not going to vote for, you know, the one that's clearly, you know, more invested in fighting for you? I don't know. That's sort of, uh, what I've seen and what I've got from the situation.

I think that's very well said. Yeah.

Um, I mean, I've seen very similar things where it's, uh, just the idea of, um, people don't wanna have to do the lesser of two evils, you know? And it sadly is like kind of where we are that you do have to pick. It's, you can't pick that third option thinking that that's gonna do something other than— it's just, it's not gonna do what you're wanting it to do. Um, it really, it— people are upset at the current situation, but voting third party or not at all isn't gonna change the situation at hand, and it isn't gonna change in the next 4 years for the next election, you know, if you don't vote, you know, for who has at least some of your beliefs. Um, and going back to something like you'd said, I guess like a little earlier in your statement, Luke, um, yeah, it was the beginning of this. I was so excited. I was like turning 18, uh, and voting, I was really excited. I was so excited to vote. And then, you know, as things like started to develop more, I was less and less excited. Um, cause it was like, oh, this is a lot of pressure. This is a huge first election. And the like circumstances of it where you're gonna be so stressed and it's like, okay, well it's still just my one vote. And like, I don't wanna have to watch my rights and livelihood slip away from me, you know? And having the, having Kamala become, you know, potentially the candidate now, I have seen a huge like change in tides in a lot of people where, including me, people are more excited and You know, more interested in something that a teacher of ours always said is like, she always tried to get us super excited for voting and, um, you know, taught us everything she could. And just the idea that like, we are lucky to have this right to vote, use it, you know, and it's a little, it's very, um, privileged that some people are considering not voting, just considering, you know, how lucky we are to vote and just this— how much rests in the hands of this election.

I agree, it's definitely— it's hard because I feel like we've been saying this for, you know, 8 years. And I understand why people are tired of sort of, you know, this reelection being the most important election. It's like, it is like, it is. It's hard because, you know, there's just such a, like, it's facing such an extreme sort of opposition, and that's what makes it so contentious. And it's not like, I feel like there's definitely been some presidential races that I've, I don't know, in my lifetime maybe, that have been a little bit less like, you know, my rights will be determined by this. And especially because I think some more of our rights were, or some of, you know, people's rights were a bit more codified. But, you know, it's so it's hard because it's like, it's not, you know, you're not just voting for like your own self, you know, as much because other people's rights are at stake in this election, I think more so than I have personally seen in the past. It's just like, you know, it's, it is a, it's a vote that, you know, it is greater than yourself. It is, you know, it's just your vote, but it's greater than yourself.

I think you bring up a really, really good point, Luke. I was writing down some thoughts that you all were bringing up for me. And, um, you're absolutely right. I was just thinking about the elections in my lifetime and especially like early on. I mean, it was definitely, you know, it was kind of like people who were like closer together. So it was like, okay, I happen to like this person's policy more. Right. Um, but it wasn't so much like it, the vast, like separation between not just candidates, but parties. And, um, so I think that just makes it so much more like glaring of like, there are two very separate choices. There's, I don't think, I mean, I appreciate the fact that there are, you know, there's a certain percentage of independent voters in our country. And I think of that more as like people who are just independent and not so much like, I think they're like independent of like old, old days politics, right?

Like not politics of right this moment in time, but I feel like there's, so there's a couple of things that I would love your thoughts on kind of when it comes to this. And you can, you can grab onto whatever resonates with you. One is, do you feel like this election is an election that's kind of looking at human rights versus policy. And then a very separate question that we can even circle back to, but talking about the two-party system, do you think that completely revamping or perhaps doing away with the Electoral College would help in the way we look at the two-party system and perhaps it not being a two-party system. Two separate questions, so you can take whichever one you want.

I'm happy to talk about the second one if you don't mind.

Sure.

You know, I was reading something, it was probably on social media the other day, that talked about, you know, the way that the US electoral system is set up and how we have these very— these two sort of— these two systems in place. The first one is our elections are first past the post, which means basically whoever gets 50% or whoever gets past a certain threshold of the vote wins. And we also have a Senate system, so it's not parliamentary. And these two things sort of combined make it— it sort of sets up the precedent for a two-party system because you have there's not really an opportunity for inter-party coalitions or for one sort of ideology to reign in a certain area and a different one to reign in a different area because you all have to sort of— it's whoever gets the most votes. And so like you're forced to sort of split into factions. It's— the person said it more eloquently, of course, but it was— I just thought it was really interesting in the way that we sort of approach our party system. And I think, you know, it is difficult. You know, I know plenty of people who You know, they maybe agree with like the Republican Party about certain financial policies, but they don't agree with like the taking away human rights policies. And I wish that there were, you know, options. I wish that we could vote for you know, a party that like loved, you know, was like their big thing was like healthcare or, you know, like somewhat a place that was like, if, you know, you live in an area with a lot of farmland, like, you know, there was a party that represented like the farmers. Like there's all like, because of our system, we lose out on a lot of, of sort of individual representation and I think it would be valuable to have that. Yeah, I mean, I don't know how I would go about changing it. It's definitely really ingrained, especially over the past sort of 8 to 12 years. I think like how like your, your social circle and your identity and your ideology are all directly related to who you vote for. You know what I mean? It's very much— it's become very, very sort of isolated, I think, at least. And so breaking that would be very difficult. But I do— I see the potential for better systems, especially in a place like the United States that has so many people. There's obviously going to be different things represented. It's just, you know, whether or not we can actually get there.

Yeah, definitely. I would agree with a lot of what you said there, and it's hard. The Electoral College is embedded in the Constitution, so it would have to be an amendment, and that's going to be really difficult to have that process. Not necessarily impossible, because I think a lot of people on all sides are questioning the merit of this kind of system, maybe moving towards— first and foremost, the president obviously has to be super overarching in their campaign. Kamala Harris is going to have to do a lot of campaigning in areas where her— where the Democratic Party doesn't necessarily have a lot of control, which feels a little strange, to say the least, that we have to go into these places where there's different niches and then we just have to try to convince them to join our side with like 500 policy issues that we care about in this exact specific way. And that is how it looks right now, which is kind of bleak. And I also think that just looking at our two-party system, I unders— I can sympathize with a lot of the far right, um, not the far right, the far left sentiment that the Conservative Party is able to rally behind more extreme policy choices as one whole unit, a lot better than the Democratic Party is. The Democratic Party, in my opinion, is definitely the more moderate of the two parties in terms of who they're bringing up as their presidential candidates, maybe not so much in congressional spaces, but I feel that sympathy that they're saying, wait, we have this pretty moderate person who's making all of these concessions and then they pick Trump who is very far right and they can all, despite maybe being just fiscally conservative, as Luke was talking about, they're all rallying around him. And that creates a diff— that creates hostility and contention in the Democratic Party.

Definitely.

So it'd be nice if there were more subgroups so that, you know, we could see more representation that wasn't so extreme.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think some of that circles back to what you were saying earlier, um, that, uh, the Republican Party— and I don't— I feel weird using that word because I feel like that's not even what they are anymore. I feel like, you know, it's, it's kind of the party of Trump. Um, they, they are very good at using fear. And, um, as that's kind of like the center of the platform. And it's been fascinating to watch.

Um, I remember years ago before, you know, it was probably 2013 or 2014.

I was having a conversation with a friend who was like, Trump's going to be the nominee. And I was like, what on earth are you talking about? Like, this is the most insane thing I've ever heard. Like, I remember where I was standing. I remember looking at this person thinking that they had 3 heads. And now being in this place and being like, it's just been, if you know, all of the things that are horrible, but standing back and just watching like how fascinating it has been to see them effectively use fear. So the Democrat Party needs to, you know, what is the counter of that? Like how You know, what is the positive flip of that? And how is that— and again, that's not gonna be something that's gonna be figured out in the next 3 months. That's something like for the longevity of moving forward. But I only bring that up as just kind of, you know, responding to, to, you know, what you've been saying. It's just a fascinating thing to see how this is, and kind of fast. I mean, you know, in a historical sense, like this has happened very quickly.

So anyway, it's so true.

Like, sorry, I cut you off. Like the sort of way that the, you know, yeah, like the Trump, like, like the way that they've sort of made that personality, you know, it gives someone— it gives people more to cling on to than just political, you know, ideology, right? Like, you know, you— I don't know, you wear the hats, you fly the flags, you're doing all this stuff, and it's like, you know, for whatever reason you're doing it, it doesn't even— you know, what are you saying? You know, whether it's gonna hurt you as a, you know, as a, like, a consumer or as a voter or whatever.

Like, it's—

I think some people are just like, you know, once you're attached to that, you can't, you can't get away from it. It's, you know, I think we, we were talking about this earlier with sort of the splits in the Democratic Party about, you know, ideology and is this, you know, the perfect president that represents all of our morals, like, exactly? And it's like You know, on the other side, it's like it doesn't matter what he's saying, which I don't think is good, but you know, it doesn't matter what he's saying, you know, they'll vote for him anyway. It makes it very hard to— like Lars was saying with these campaigns, um, and this ties back to the Electoral College as well, but like when the Democrats are just campaigning in the swing states, um, so it allows You know, it creates these like, these areas that's like, these areas are dominated by Democrats, these areas are dominated by Republicans, and they don't really touch each other. And then, you know, there's areas in the middle, and that's where all the funding goes. Like, I think Pennsylvania, I was reading a statistic, I remember it was just this year or if it was over the past election cycle, but like, they've had over $250 million of, you know, ad spending, um, for both parties combined. And it's like, you know, if we didn't have to worry about like that, you know, we could be doing a lot more productive things. It's just, uh, it all, it all sort of the focus, you know, from the Democratic Party is always about bringing Republicans to their side. And I think that makes the further left— the Democrats are further left, you know, upset as well because it's like you're constantly making concessions to bring over a voter base when, you know, they won the popular vote. You know, they have the voters. And so it's just like, you know, you're moving further right to win the Electoral College. And I think that's— I know I I'm deviating from the original point I was making, but I think that's something that's really frustrating as well.

And to just like we're talking about like human rights versus policy and subgroups within it who might be more socially liberal or have certain identities, there's definitely an interesting thing going on with LGBT conservatives, which is this subset. I have had the pleasure of meeting a few and talking with them. And what I find is that it's definitely the sentiment of, well, I think there was this famous tweet once that said, the people voting for the leopards eating people's faces party, I never thought the leopards would eat my face. And it's kind of this idea that, well, I'm just going to vote conservative because even though I am gay, I, you know, maybe believe in certain fiscal policies or other things like that, great, they have your vote. They're still gonna take away your rights. And it's a little bit bizarre, and it probably comes from a place of entitlement and privilege that you think that you're somehow gonna avoid being the target of that because you tried to get an in with them early on in some way.. But when push comes to shove, it maybe harkens back even to the, um, an earlier thing, like the first they came for the socialist, but I wasn't a socialist, that kind of poem, that kind of idea, right? So I think that just talking, I've been talking a lot with that voter base, LGBT conservatives, and wow. Yes.

Well, it's also—

it's—

sorry.

No, go ahead. Go ahead.

It's why I think part of the sort of recent messaging we've seen out of the Democratic Party with describing the Republican candidates as weird, I think has been so funny but also effective.

Right.

Because it's like, here's a guy saying that he wants, like, to lower taxes. But then, you know, you call him weird, and then suddenly all this other crazy rhetoric comes out. And this is like the candidate, it's not necessarily the people voting for him, but it's like, it helps to sort of shine a light on the fact that like, this dude is spouting some like, you know, starts spouting some crazy like 4chan stuff. I can guarantee you, before 2016, no one like, No one in the public sphere knew what 4chan was. And the fact that, like, the, like, Republican Party has, like, normalized us just, like, knowing what 4chan is, is wild to me because it is a crazy platform for, like, crazy people. Like, and it's not like— it's to me, like, I think it's so, it's so astute that people, you know, that we're coming up with this sort of, like, messaging because it's— I just think it sort of highlights like, you know, there are people who believe in like policy stuff and there's people who believe in taking away people's rights and there's people who do both. And I think the people who are invested in the policy stuff are voting for people taking their rights without maybe— I mean, I have to imagine they understand it at this point, but I hope that they don't, you know, And so it's like, you know, just like sort of getting people to understand, like, these people are not your, like, who you want to be representing you as a public, as Republicans. These are people that you do not want to be representing you. Like, I think that that's so important, you know, because it's not, it's not just like, you know, we had like the Tea Party and we had like other stuff like that. But it's just a whole other level of like, this isn't really what I grew up knowing the Republican Party as. And I don't know if this was an inevitability. I don't know, you know, I don't know if this was like what it was sort of destined to become, but it's just really like, it's weird.

It is.

It's like the perfect word. I love that. I think it was Tim Walts that originally said that, um, which is kind of funny and perfect coming from him as well. Um, but it's a, it's a great descriptor and it like pulls away from their hateful, cruel, inaccurate rhetoric coming from the other side. When a word like weird is used because it's not actually talking about the person, even though in some cases it does apply, it's the behavior, right? So I appreciate that for so many reasons.

Yeah.

Um, something—

I feel like there's just so many thoughts. Um, but I don't know, something kind of interesting is like, you know, there are so many subgroups of like some people in this election, and there's so many people that like, you know, somehow we need to talk to before the election happens. Um, and like, well, two things right now, but like, um, that's kind of why social media is so interesting right now because while Kamala, she can't be everywhere, but we are everywhere. And, you know, she has a platform on, um, everything, every social media she has something there. And just in the past, you know, month, I guess, um, on TikTok seeing just everyone's thoughts and just, you know, it's the cool thing in this day and age where people can campaign for other people almost. So, you know, starting to teach people and getting enough of a, you know, following, I guess, through that. So it's like she can, you know, campaign where she needs to campaign. But then also trying to, you know, campaign for her a little bit, I guess, um, which is really interesting. But then the other thing was the idea that some people are just always gonna vote for themselves and they don't see the effects that it— like, um, whether they see the effects on other people or not It's the idea where this election will affect everyone, uh, and I know we've talked about it before, bringing to their attention how this is going to negatively affect them because there's so much in, you know, whether Project 2025 or Agenda 47.

Yep.

Um, there's something attacking everyone, you know, in a sense. And, you know, not everyone fully understands every single detail, and that's okay, but like bringing to everyone's attention, like to the group that just, you know, they don't pay attention to, you know, politics in any way and sort of, you know, closed off in a sense, and you know, innocent to the world, great for them, but also not. And, you know, pushing them to, you know, you can't make someone who isn't empathetic empathetic, but you can help. You can start the process by pointing out, um, this is how it's going to negatively affect you, and then getting them to realize that and bring them to potentially think about others.

I totally agree. I think it's hard, you know, especially because of how sort of wide-scale the latest elections have been. Like, I don't really know when we got away from like door-to-door stuff. Um, and I know like it's not always perfect, um, but it, you know, there is absolutely like I think this feeling that the election is very impersonal. It's not, you know, like, maybe it's just because, you know, of where we live, but like, I rarely interact with like genuine, like, campaign people. You know, every once in a blue moon, you know, we'll get someone from like the state legislature or like the House. But it's not, you know, canvassing and door-to-door stuff is not something that we really see anymore. And I, you know, it's definitely been sort of replaced by social media targeted advertising.

But there, it's so different, you know.

I think nothing would make someone listen more than talking to them. And it's what makes it so hard because you can't have a conversation when no one is letting you in to have that conversation at all. So shutting down the talk and shutting down the conversation is such an important thing for the Republican Party. You know, I think it's why we've seen sort of a big push against the social media platforms. And, you know, when you get rid of that conversation, you get rid of the chance to convince someone of, you know, or to change someone's beliefs. And It's like, I hope we get back to, you know, having more of those conversations in real life because I think it's really valuable. And, you know, just communication as a whole, like, it's not like TikTok bans and stuff. I know that the Democratic Party supported some of them. But, you know, I think that's really because they were pushed into a corner with the— I don't want to give them too much leeway. I think that they shouldn't be supporting a TikTok ban. But I think they got pushed into a corner with sort of this narrative that, you know, TikTok is owned by China and the CCP is spying on you. And, you know, it's like, that's a really, that's a really good narrative to push if you want to force politicians into a corner. It's like, okay, this social media platform is the enemy. And it's like, if all that aside, it's really, it's sort of interesting that this platform that's mainly used by the younger audience, that's, it's getting people organized, that this is like run by the enemy.

It's like, Why is this platform that's empowering young people the enemy?

I think that that's like, it's an interesting conversation, you know, shutting off forms of communication and how, you know, we see it. We see them trying to do it. It's not like veiled at all.

But I think it's, you see it, right? Your generation sees what's going on. And I think what you're, exactly what you're saying is they found something that would— that sparks fear in so many, again, using fear as a very powerful tactic. And so, but you all see that, right? So that is so incredibly huge. I think the other piece too, and circling back to what you were saying about not seeing people out canvassing anymore, I think there's something behind that which you see in, in so many ways across the board, is taking out the human element, right? So it's so much easier to be against something when, you know, there's no human element to it, or you are able to actively dehumanize someone or a group of people. They have found that to be very effective. So, you know, to your point, having these one-on-one conversations, right, puts the human element back in. And whether it's having a conversation with someone that you probably are not going to change their mind, you still are having that one-on-one conversation, right? And then, you know, there are so many out there where their mind may be changed in that that it makes a difference, right? So I just say, you know, keep, keep putting the human element back in because that— you've really hit on something that's really important. So I'm looking at our time and holy cow, this has been an amazing conversation. I don't want to take up any more of your time today though, so I just want to end with like a final question. And again, you can take both of these parts or just one of these parts, but I'd love for each of you to share what you would like either parents to know or politicians to know or both. That's either your personal message or message of your generation that you just feel is so important that people understand.

I would say for parents, obviously this is the conversation among the Our generation is just the acknowledgement that things are much different, the acknowledgement that it is harder to achieve certain milestones that it was easier for them to achieve in their lifetime. And of course, millennials have been having this conversation with, you know, even boomers for a while. It's not a new conversation for Gen Z, but it's still definitely ongoing. That conversation is super important with parents. So making sure that parents can use their vote to align with policies of the future that will make the world, or not, well, this country at the very least, a better place moving forward in, for subsequent generations. And for politicians, especially on the left, And people at the moderate left, just because we are voting for Kamala Harris does not mean that we're making further concessions to the right. We are going to empower Kamala Harris to push us farther to the left. And I want to see that. Start to take into effect. It's hard, probably, you know, definitely, but the people at the end of the day have still, and still now, some power over our politicians. And I think that Kamala Harris and hopefully her future administration will know that our generation is the voice to listen to and we can kind of get out of this dark age but we won't ever if we keep moving farther to the right because the people on the right will close ranks and they will just toe the party line forever and ever, even if it's crazy and gets crazier and crazier, which it will.

Yeah, I absolutely agree with everything you just said. You know, I think, um, in terms of what I would say to parents I, Lars, I agree with what you said. And I think too, just being sort of understanding of the way in which our circumstances and what we've seen throughout our upbringing has really, you know, changed, you know, has caused us to maybe have a different outlook. You know, it's some of the, you know, pessimism that you see definitely demonstrated from Gen Z people, you know, it can be a little bit overstated, but it's definitely not worth brushing off. You know, like you said, you know, we've grown up in an America at least that's been very, very different from that of previous generations. And, you know, it's changed our outlook on things. And I think that it's worth listening to us and what we have to say about it because it's what we grew up knowing. And also just the way in which our lives with social media has been so different. We've definitely— our generation, I think, is definitely the first generation to be like I would like to say entirely connected. Um, you know, I grew up with, um, the internet. Um, I, you know, I think our generation was probably the first one to start like getting technology a bit younger, uh, and really, you know, connecting from a young age. So it's like that experience is very valuable as well, um, in the future. And then, yeah, like Lars said, you know, for politicians, it's not, it's not over after the election. I think so often we see sort of a big push, you know, to vote someone in and then we see silence for 4 years or 2 years or however long it is until the next, like, relevant to elections and it's like, it's not over. You can't expect to be elected in on policies and then not push for them. We see it. We see it when you don't push. Like I said, we're all very connected. We know what's going on. And it's Like, I have to say, you know, I've enjoyed seeing sort of the— with Kamala Harris's campaign, sort of the, you know, the marketing to Gen Z. I want to see her represent us.

I want to see that, you know, come through beyond November.

So You know, it's just important to stay on your toes because, uh, you know, we're, we're watching. And I mean that in the best possible way. Like, we really care about what's going on. And I think, um, you know, it's just important that, uh, that you care too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, I guess what I would say to parents is Um, to just, you know, continue to educate yourself. Um, I think it's just so huge in everything to be, um, well-knowledged and to have an understanding, you know, so Because things can have, like, words have so much weight, votes, decisions, everything you do, um, has so much, like, carries a lot of weight. And, you know, just, you know, go forward with knowledge and, you know, you're, you can trust that it will be a the best decision you can make at that point. Um, and then I guess to politicians, um, yeah, your, your job isn't over once the election is won. Um, and you know, we're putting a lot of, um, belief you know, in you, like giving you our vote. There's a lot of belief, um, and you have to follow through in everything that you, you know, promised and, you know, continue to pay attention to our voices, um, like the reasons that we voted for you and the reasons we like what we're asking for, you know, just continue to pay attention, I guess.

Yeah, very good.

I would just add one thing because I've heard this as like a thread, and I want to say it very simply for parents, which is be curious.

Just be curious when your kids are talking because they know a lot more than what you think they might and ask questions. And I have to say that, and I've said this a million times on this podcast, so people who've been listening for a long time know this, the just sheer volume of things that I have learned and that have made me want to learn more and question more and look into things more from my kids is extraordinary. So listen to them and be curious about what they're talking about and why they're talking about it. So that is how I will end. I wanna thank you three so much for being here today. This was such a fun conversation to have with all of you. And really for me, just to kind of sit back and listen, this was really such a gift. So thank you for sharing of your thoughts and yourselves this morning.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for having us. It was a lot of fun.

Yeah, thank you. It's been a pleasure.

I am so glad you were here today. There is a lot going on right now, and I hope this episode brought you comfort, helped you feel more informed, and empowered you to be the next ripple, whether that is through renewed connection with your child, a friend, your community, or out in the world. Reach out if you have a question you'd like for me to answer in an upcoming episode. Join others in community on my Patreon and share this podcast. Liking, rating, sharing, and reviewing all help get more humans more kind in front of others who need to know that they are not alone. And right now, that is no small thing. Remember to take breaks, big breaths, hug your kids, and tell someone how much you appreciate them. Until next time.