How Our Family Learned Courage, Connection & LGBTQ Allyship Together

Welcome to Just Breathe: Parenting Your LGBTQ Teen, the podcast transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child. My name is Heather Hester, and I am so grateful you are here. I want you to take a deep breath and know that for the time we are together, you are in the safety of the Just Breathe nest. Whether today's show is an amazing guest, or me sharing stories, resources, strategies, or lessons I've learned along our journey, I want you to feel like we're just hanging out at a coffee shop having a cozy chat. Most of all, I want you to remember that that wherever you are on this journey, right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone.

Welcome back to Just Breathe. I am so happy you all are here. Today's episode is an episode that you all have been waiting for. And it's been quite some time. I don't think the two of you have ever been on the show together. Ever.

Wow.

Oh, yeah, the anniversary episode.

Yeah, right, right.

Oh, my gosh, I forgot about that. Yes.

Thank you.

We were playing characters. Yeah. Today, we all get the pleasure and the fun of having Connor and Grey on the show. Asking me questions, me asking them questions, and just talking about all things— the book, our journey, where they are today, their view of, of their future now as opposed to 10 years ago, all these good things. So, uh, without further rambling from me, let's get into it. So thank you, thank you, you guys, for making time to be with me today.

It's a pleasure and a privilege. I mean, I guess start it off with a kind of on-the-nose one, but it's like, now that we're finally— yeah, finally after many years at the point of the book almost being released, or maybe it'll be released by the time this is out, but what's the most like, poignant— what's your take at this point of the whole experience of the book journey and how do you feel now and perhaps biggest takeaway you had from this experience? I know that's like 3 questions, but just the general vibe of where you're at right now with the book.

Oh my gosh. With the book specifically, in this exact moment in time, I am panicked. That's like my total 100% honest answer. I'm excited and I Literally 100 times a day, I have to remind myself to enjoy this because it's been so much work and so much just everything. And so now that I'm in the final weeks before it launches into the world, just wanting to make sure that I cross all the T's and dot all the I's and do the things to make the launch successful. And then beyond that, I'm a bit kind of bigger picture to that. I'm really grateful. I'm grateful that we're, you know, the 6 of us are together and, you know, who we are and have this incredible bond that allowed me to write this book. Because it's, you know, like this podcast, it's pretty vulnerable at times. And it was, I think, you know, in writing, the actual writing of the book and kind of going back through some of our stories was a little bit like reliving some of those things, which is kind of weird because reliving, but yet from a little bit of a different perspective or greater wisdom or something like that. I think I just gave you a totally circular answer to that question.

Very circular question. That's okay. No, yeah, I think just good to see where you're at right now with it because obviously it's right before—

It would be so interesting to ask me the same question in 6 weeks and see if I've come Right now I feel like I'm spinning and—

Still a lot of unknowns.

There's so many unknowns and I just want this to get into the hands of all the people who really need it and just to be out there. So, yeah.

We'll ask you the follow-up question at the book launch. Uh-oh.

Oh, yeah.

That's right.

There you go.

There you go. You can be the plant. And you can ask.

Yeah. No one will recognize you as—

No, not at all. Who is that person asking that question?

Oh, yeah. Love it.

So how do you both feel about me writing this book? And it's too late to say you don't want me to write it. I mean, just so everyone out there knows, I did ask this question before. Like, I didn't write this without permission. But right now, now that we're here and you've given your permission, are you like— what are you— how are you feeling?

Do you want to answer first?

Uh, sure. I mean, I feel excited for you. I mean, I think it's something, you know, we've gotten to see you get excited and, you know, go through the motions of writing a book, and I'm excited for people to be able to read it. I'm I'm proud of you. I mean, I haven't read it yet. We have the books, but I haven't read it. I'll get on that. But I mean, I'm obviously not in it as much as Connor is, but there's nothing I'm not like— nothing I'm afraid of sharing, I guess. I'm hopeful that, you know, whatever is in the book is helpful to people.

Good answer. Yeah. No, I agree on that first part. Obviously, of course, we were more than okay with our stories being shared and that it reaches the right people. I think there's always that now that it's at the point of almost releasing, there is definitely still a part of me that I know I'd mentioned this to you at one point, Mom, but Just hoping that it reaches the right crowd. This is different than the internet, but as things on the internet tend to do, they'll start in a queer space and then they'll reach broader society, and that's where things, you know, there tends to be maybe a little more controversy. And so I'm— not that book sales operate in the same way as the internet, but there's obviously that level of maybe not concern, but just kind of curious to see how things play out in that regard. No, I mean, I think it's cool. I mean, I'll speak from personal experience. Actually, this weekend, it's reached a kind of weird meta level of I kind of forgot that this aspect of my life has been shared as a part of the book, but also the podcast and all of that. And obviously no issue with it, but I was actually I'm a part of a gay volleyball league. And so after one of the games, I was at like a happy hour and one of the guys who I'm like sort of friends with, but I had posted like a year ago when we had done the podcast together, we'd done an episode together and I'd posted that like just like a link to it on my story on Instagram. And I guess he had checked it out and, you know, listened through, which was like really sweet. And so like he had like come up and just like started talking to me about like, you know, I won't, air out our conversation, but Josh, if you're listening, hey. But it was very sweet because he had said like, it was very, just like very inspiring to hear that like, you, Mom, were able to kind of embrace us and be able to make such a distinct change in your life or like, just in the way that you parent and the way that you kind of view things. And I know that's continually been a part of your journey, but just like, he had said that that was just inspiring to see that as a tangible story. So my chance to give a roundabout answer. But just like, yeah, just very interesting how not only the story itself has evolved, but like, just kind of the reception to it and the impact that it's had and the reach that it's had.— which I'm sure will only be magnified by the book. So, yeah, it's cool.

That's so sweet. I love that point because I think that it's something that I've been recognizing in recent weeks, and I think that's part of my anxiety about the— there's one thing about doing a podcast, right? Because we're all here talking like this. So at maximum, there's like this interaction, right, with another human being. And then I put it out into the world and that's out in the world. And occasionally I'll get stuff that's like how people can be. But for the most part, if people are reaching out to me, it's people who are kind and grateful and beautiful, right? And, but putting, writing a book and putting a book out in the world or doing, it's like 1,000 times more visible. And I think that's what I've just like put my finger on. I'm like, oh, this is what it is. Because I, you know, my whole life have like worked very hard to be as not visible as possible for multiple reasons. And just in recent years have been like slowly, ever so slowly more comfortable with being visible and talking about hard things. And— but this is like times a thousand. So there's— I think that is like— I put my finger on that's where, where the anxiety is. A lot of the anxiety is coming from is like, oh wow, like once this is out there, it's out there. Like there's just— there's no takebacks, right? And, and But then I also have to, like, you know, that's being very self-centered too. This is not about me. So I guess it's about, like, this conversation right here is about our experience, each of our experience in this, but the bigger picture is so worth it, right? Like, for me, it's like I will take whatever comes at me if it means that it helps people, right?

Yeah, 100%. Yeah.

So thank you, thank you for coming along on that ride with me there.

Yeah, no, I mean, I think, yeah, I think another easy question that there we could each speak on is just like from the beginning, I guess, of— because I guess the podcast came before the planning of the book, or did the planning of the book come before the podcast?

I'm trying to remember. I think that the planning of the book— I wrote the book proposal. I think I was in the midst of writing the book proposal when I started the podcast. Yeah, I think that's how it worked. And then that got shelved because of the pandemic. So then I was doing the podcast for like a year and a half or 2 years, and that's when I got the contract for the book.

That's right. Okay. Well, anyway, at the beginning of this project, we'll say, to now, I guess what have you noticed in yourself or in our family dynamic, or even more broadly, what have you noticed is like the biggest biggest shift, the biggest change between us, whatever. And Grace, this goes for you too. So do you have an answer?

Because I, I have to—

I was gonna wait for you.

I mean, a number of things. That's such a great question. Bravo. As I've been reading the book for Audible, there have been a couple of times that I've like read through things and I've been like, oh, we've actually like grown from there. So not that like anything I've read have I been like, oh well, that's completely false now. It's been more like, well, that was definitely a place where we were, or I was, or you were, or Dad, or you know, whomever. Was talking about. And now we've, we've evolved to the next point. So I think that would be— I mean, one of the big— for me personally, I will say that where I've seen that the most, and this is again my like personal journey around spirituality and religion, so I've had to— there's been a lot that I have like worked through, let go of, deconstructed, tried to fit, you know, working on figuring, actively working on figuring out what, what it all means to me, you know, where, where I am with that. So I think that's a place that I'm still very much like— was very interesting for me to to look back and see kind of how that's evolved and, and still is evolving actively.

So totally, I love that. I think that's excellent.

Yeah, I mean, for me, I guess one of the bigger things that I've noticed, uh, would probably be communication. You know, between us all. I mean, from start to finish with this whole process, it's been a pretty, like, integral time in my life, like going middle school to now I'm graduating high school. And just, you know, watching kind of how all of us experience each of those and how this process has affected that, but, you know, as a family, I feel like we talk so much. I don't know, like, in comparison to a lot of my friends, I know, you know, we have family dinner every night and we talk. And I know, like, you and Connor are calling, they have, like, you talk each like once a week, and you catch up with Isabel at least once a week. And I think that's so special, and I think it's something really important that, you know, 6 years ago we didn't have that level of communication with each other. And I think that's just been something really important that we've grown into.

And do you think that's like the the connection that we have, or the growth as human beings, or the ages that you all were then as opposed to now. Because you— I mean, so let's say 7 years ago. I mean, Connor, you were Rowan's age 7 years ago, which is so weird to think about, right? So that's the oldest, and Rowan was—

9.

So communicating to those ages is a lot— or communicating with those ages of kids is a lot different than communicating with, you know, between 16 and 23, almost 24. Do you think that is it, or do you think there's— because I know what you're saying.

I just— I think it's a lot more about, you know, who we are as people and how we've all grown, because things that I've like, we've gone through as a family could have very well, you know, taken, like made us grown apart. You know, we didn't have to then grow back together. Cause I feel like there were, there were periods of time where we, like, there was not a lot of connection. Like we were all struggling with different things and we were very, far apart for a period of time. Like, we were all focused on very different things. And it took a while to kind of like, we all came to terms with, you know, stuff. And a lot of it I think was COVID when we were forced to be together and we kind of were able to, I guess, kick back, like start that communication going again. And have the ability, like, because yeah, our ages are different, but like, the person, the people we were years ago, like Connor and Isabel going to college, I feel like those people wouldn't keep up the communication, you know? Yeah. So I think it's just something every day when I talk to people and, you know, we each talk about our families, our whatever, I'm proud and glad to say that, like, we do have a strong connection and we talk a lot to each other.

Do you think it's because we've made it a priority, or because we have, like, because we have gone through some things together as a family that have just brought us closer, or that we've each done like such intensive individual work that we've like— that's brought us together? Do you think it's like all of those things or one guiding thing?

I think it's definitely a mix of it all, and I think so much of it really did come from like— I don't think I've ever said I'm grateful for COVID, But I'm grateful for that time that we were forced, like, we to be together.

It's a good silver lining.

Yeah. Um, because it, it gave us, like, we had all gotten a lot of set, like, time apart. Mm-hmm. Uh, Connor, you were in your freshman year of college, like you that we, we each kind of took a step back from a lot of things and had that time to, you know, deal with whatever we wanted on our own, and then we were put back together. And I think that's kind of what helped.

Yeah.

Do you have any thoughts on that?

No, I mean, I think Grace hit the nail on the head, you know. I don't think it's one specific thing that, you know, led to the dynamic that we have today. I think it really is, yeah, just a lot of Little things, little factors. COVID absolutely was a big part of it. I mean, but yeah, I know, I mean, I was kind of, I guess, reflecting on a similar thing and just that, you know, since I've been in New York and, you know, meeting new people and talking about, you know, your family life and all that, it's definitely something that over time I've come to appreciate more and more. Yeah, the same thing that it's like, you know, the dynamic that we have the relationships that we have are not the norm. And I think especially in the bubble that we grew up in, that you guys currently reside in, there is kind of a— even though Gracie said it's clear that the dynamic isn't the same, there's still kind of a general I don't know what the word would be. It seems like everything's fine and everyone kind of has a good situation. But then just meeting more people where that was not the case, where there wasn't as much acceptance in their coming out or whatever it may be, I've just come to appreciate that, yeah, we are very lucky. I am very lucky that we are all still so close. And that, you know, Mom, you had touched on the aspect of evolving, and I think that that's something that also holds true is that, you know, everyone has been very willing to grow and change. Well, yeah, everyone has been willing to grow and change at their own pace for sure, but, you know, we are all, yeah, growing and continuing to examine our own patterns. And obviously, you know, therapy is a big part of that, at least for me, having that, you know, consistent piece of examining yourself. Yeah, you know, I think— but obviously, yeah, yeah. So, but I think you guys already kind of touched on the general differences between then and now, so Yeah, yeah, I love that.

I think part of it too is like becoming aware not only of like who we each are as people, the greater world and what's going on, and like really understanding and, and learning to ask questions and be curious about things instead of just to be stuck in this, like, this is how it is, this is what I know, and I'm staying right here because this is safe. And I think that's where I, at least me personally, lived for a very long time. And even though it's much scarier out here in the wild, it's way more interesting and like real. And I just think it is such a— it's such a gift. Well, definitely, right? I mean, and I think for people who are like afraid that they're too old or that things have to be a certain way, to like just take that, you know, take a chance to realize, you know what I mean? I'm not being very articulate, I apologize.

I was gonna touch on this. It's just that obviously, without sounding patronizing, proud of you for the journey that you've taken specifically in the deconstruction of spirituality and your faith because I think that's a big part of it too, is the neuroplasticity in that regard. Because your willingness to examine those things and your willingness to see that like, okay, well, like, that worked for me at a period of time, but maybe that doesn't fit that well anymore, and actually making that change and actually following that, moving towards that change versus being afraid of it. And I think that's obviously, you know, this is not shocking for me to say, but you know, a lot of people are stuck in that, and that's obviously like, you know, that's the whole spiel with religion, namely Christianity, like, is that, You don't question that, you just follow it blindly, and that thinking obviously then bleeds into every other aspect of your life. And that is why, not singularly, but that's part of why people aren't willing to accept queer people in their life, for lack of better wording. And I think that is kind of the common thread when You know, I hear from people who have accepting family members who, you know, even if they're from, you know, typically the Midwest, there's a level of like, oh yeah, you know, my parents used to be super religious, but like now they've come around, or now they're, you know, coming around. And I think that's kind of the— all you can really hope for. But yeah, it's the kind of the deconstruction and the willingness to examine yourself and move towards the discomfort and all that.

Yes.

I mean, I'd just like to give like kudos to you because not only are you willing to, you know, try and relearn what works for you, you have created a space where it's like, this is what I believe, and I'm learning that I believe, and what I 'You know, want to follow, but you can do whatever you'd like.' You know, we grew up going to church, but at a certain point, like, it stopped working for our family. So it was like, okay, we don't have to go. And letting us figure out what we believe in and what we want to follow and think, you've left us like such a space, you know, where it's like we can have— we have a lot of conversations about religion, um, and you let me talk it out and you let me, you know, ask questions and, and figure it out. And it's just— I mean, I think that's really impressive that you're able— you, you know what you believe in and you're willing to have conversations about what other people believe in, and you want other people to believe in other things than you do.

Wow.

Thank you.

Well said. That is very well said. I have two very well-spoken kids while I sit here and I can't put a sentence together, which you two know why, but I still am feeling a little goofy today. So my apologies, everyone. Thank you. I'm so glad you said that. Both of you, I'm really touched and certainly not why I wanted you both to come on today and talk about the book and everything else, but I think I'm particularly moved by both of these thoughts and perspectives because One of the things that I— it's so funny because I hear this in my head, like when you said it, it just like went through my head again, even though I know it's completely like unequivocally false. But letting you, you know, figure out what you believe, like, is such something that I was, you know, always heard growing up and taught that, you know, those, those people that let their kids think whatever they want to think and believe whatever they want to believe. Like, those are bad people, they're blah blah blah blah, you know, bad parents. And I, I still like hear that, and that I have to like literally like— there's like such a level of like awareness and conscious like, nope, that's old stuff. Like, that is totally old, that is totally false. It's part of— it's my old story that's like creeping in and being a pain and it needs to just— and at some point it's going to become more and more quiet. But I say that out loud because I want people listening to know that it's not like one day you wake up and you decide to evolve and that you just evolve and all the other stuff just never comes up again, because it does forever and ever till the end of time. It just becomes less loud and less believable and at times comedic.

And life becomes a lot more fun when you're willing to make those changes. I mean, you look at what our family Christmas looks like versus the one in Ohio, and it's a pretty staunch difference. So I think that—

Well, I think, isn't it like, this is what I think it is. When we decided what is going to be the guiding feeling. Like, are we going to be guided by, like, love and joy and, like, like, the delight of being around each other and, like, on all the things that we say and do, which are— we know are not a normal family? Or are we going to be, like, like, fearful and judgy and rigid and That's, that is just no fun. It's true.

It's very true.

Some people are super happy that you all were like, this is who I am. And, um, it was kind of the unstated, like, here I am. You, you have some choices to make.

Yeah.

So, you know, right. And bravo to you. I mean, you never said that, but it was like— now that I look back and I think, oh my gosh, like the— you know how you're like, you're just moved in the ways you're supposed to be moved in when you're like really paying attention to who you authentically are and who your people authentically are. I feel like we were all kind of like spiritually connected. And rode this crazy, all of our crazy waves, but did the work that we needed to do. But that started. Yeah, you were the first domino. Way to go.

Right. Well, yeah, and that aspect too is, I was thinking about that recently, just that change probably wouldn't have happened had I kind of just remained at home and on that track that I was on. I think there was an immense amount of validity to the 7 months I had spent on my own. It really did allow for that kind of initial like, take a step back and examine what do I actually believe versus what kind of has been not told, but like, taught and held up as a model, an example. And obviously it's not just like, what you and Dad, but just in general what the culture was, the society, the specific bubble that we lived in that kind of allowed for the first— maybe not first, but ushered in kind of an era of everyone starting to take a step back and re-examine. Obviously, I think for Grace and Rowan and Isabel specifically— Rowan's doing his own thing— but for you two, it was especially once you hit kind of the middle to end of high school where it really became like, that's kind of when it happens, that those changes really happen for you. Which is just cool. It's cool to see.

It is cool. Yeah, and to your point, I think that is so, you know, at the time it was not even a question. Like, once we realized like, "Oh, this is like a major bona fide crisis and we have to do something major. And, and like sticking with you being away even though you were so mad and you didn't talk to me. And, and multiple people were like, your relationship's never going to be the same with him. He's not going to talk to you anymore. You know, all the things that we were told over time by different therapists that were there and professionals and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And for us to be like, no, these are, you know, he's our kid and we're going to figure this out. And I mean, overall, that was the most positive thing we could have done, right? For all the reasons that weren't necessarily like what you were getting on a day-to-day basis there, but like the lessons that you learned over time about who you inherently are. And how you wanted to, to show up in the world. So, and I think then that helped, you know, with just being able to communicate at home and, and offer more space to you guys. And, you know, even when you were like really mad about us not telling you—

different time.

Yeah, it's okay, we're allowed to be.

Yeah, yeah.

So love it.

I know.

All right, is there anything else that we want to, to chit-chat about, about the book or anything else surrounding it?

We're back to Grace's list real quick.

I know, thanks, thanks to Grace, we have lots of interesting questions and topics. Thank you. Thank you.

I did want to throw out, you know, kind of talking on this past topic, how grateful I am of Connor. And, you know, just, I think I model— I've modeled and will probably continue to model so much around my life around you. But I recently, you know, was trying to write a commencement speech for my graduation, and, you know, I'd mentioned you in it and how so much of, like, who I am today and how I've grown to who I am is because of you. And I mean it wholeheartedly, because, I mean, the day you came out to us was the day I was like, what is gay? Uh, I don't, don't know. And that kind of— it spiraled to where I am now. You introduced mental health for me. And, you know, I wouldn't, you know, be as happy as I were. You know, you dyed your hair first, you got piercings, you got tattoos. I just— so much of who I am is because of you.

And yeah, thank you, Grace. That's very sweet. And I mean, you know, on the flip side of that, I think it has been very rewarding I don't know if that's— yeah, rewarding to see you grow into the little gay that you are today and really getting to start. I mean, obviously you've had your own struggles and everyone does, but I think it feels good to know that maybe I got some of the rockier part of the experience out of the way so that you were able to start at a little higher up. Not a little, but you didn't have to deal with the same stuff, so now you are much further along in your identity and your sense of self by the time you're heading off to college. I think it took me quite a couple more years to be at that point. So I think it's very inspiring. I think I'm definitely inspired by your journey as well. And that's not just me returning a compliment, but really truly I think it's very cool to see, and it's something that I'm proud of. And I think, you know, just to be able to like tell people that's like, yeah, you know, I'm, I'm— I started the trend. But, you know, certainly you certainly match the energy, and I think that's very special. And obviously, you know, Mom and Dad are a big part of that as well for, you know, holding space and supporting that and you know, really allowing us to explore in our identity. And yeah, it's really cool because again, that's not the norm. It should be, and hopefully we'll continue to move in that direction. It will move in that direction. But, you know, we're—

that's a big part, I think, of why I wanted to write this book. I mean, it's not just about like, here's what you do when your kid says they're gay. Like, so much more of it. And it's interesting because one of the first reviews that I got on NetGalley was somebody who had read it, like a professional reviewer— who knew those existed? But they do. And this person read it and they were wanting like very specific information about what to say to somebody when they come out as gay, which The book does not have, FYI, anybody looking for that. I mean, other than tell your kid that you love them for who they are right now in this moment in time. I mean, there's— I'm not going to hold your hand in that way. I will hold your hand in a million other ways in this book, but it's around the work that each of us needs to do. And learning to hold that space, learning to, you know, how do you do that? How do you sit with things that are uncomfortable? What does that feel like and how do you do that? So kind of approaching topics that are a little more abstract, but also topics that can be used in, in so many different ways, right? Just to become better human beings and hopefully create just a better world.

Thanks so much for joining me today. If you enjoyed today's episode, I would be so grateful for a rating or a review. Click on the link in the show notes or go to my website, chrysalismama.com, to stay up to date on my latest resources as well as to learn how you can work with me. Please share this podcast with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone, and remember to just breathe. Until next time!