Rewriting the Narrative: Brian Selznick on Love, Identity & Writing Without Fear

Welcome to More Human, More Kind, the podcast helping parents of LGBTQ+ kids move from fear to fierce allyship and feel less alone and more informed so you can protect what matters, raise brave kids, and spark collective change. I'm Heather Hester. Let's get started. Welcome back to More Human, More Kind. I am so delighted that you are with me today. When today's guest first reached out to me, I actually had to read the email a couple of times because I thought, my gosh, this is an author that I know so well. I have both read his books and read his books to my kids. And in fact, when I told my kids, they were like, "Oh my gosh, this is really cool, Mom." So I was absolutely delighted that Brian Selznick's PR team reached out to ask me to interview him on the show and to talk about his newest book, which I will tell you, I read in one evening. It's a YA novel, and I absolutely fell in love. I was just stunned by the way that this gorgeous story was written, the setting, the thought that went into it. And of course, the fact that I'm, I'm always delighted to see one more LGBTQ book on the market to just have that representation out there for kids that wasn't even there, you know, 8, 10 years ago. Run Away with Me is Brian Selznick's new book. It is now available. All of his books have sold millions of copies. They've garnered countless awards worldwide and have been translated into more than 35 languages. He broke open the novel form with his genre-breaking thematic trilogy, beginning with the Caldecott Medal-winning, number one New York Times bestseller, The Invention of Hugo Cabaret, which is the one, of course, that I fell in love with first, that my kids fell in love with. And then, as you may know, it was adapted into Martin Scorsese's Oscar-winning movie Hugo. He followed that with the number one New York Times bestseller Wonderstruck, adapted by celebrated filmmaker Todd Haynes with a screenplay by Selznick, and then the New York Times bestseller The Marvels. Selznick has appeared on Good Morning America, NBC's Today Show, CBS Sunday Morning, and has been featured in The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, NPR, The Guardian, Le Monde, La República, among many other renowned publications worldwide. I am so delighted and honored to have Brian as a guest on my show today. Brian, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for being here. I am so delighted.

Thanks so much, Heather. I'm really happy to be here and to be a part of this bigger conversation that you've been having.

Well, I welcome you here. It's special in so many ways. I was sharing this with you before we started recording that all of my kids read The Invention of Hugo Cabaret years ago when they were young. And I have such wonderful memories of that. And I was so delighted to have this opportunity. And then as I got to learn more and more about you, I was even more moved by your reasoning behind why you've written what you've written and why you've illustrated what you've illustrated. And so, you know, today we're specifically talking about your new book, uh, Run Away with Me, which is just a gorgeous story. It is at, at the same time sweet and it pulls you in right away. I literally sat down to read it and I like just melted into the book. And I have a soft spot for Rome too, so I think that was a piece of it for sure. And obviously like a good love story. And so I think I kind of want to start there and talk about Um, the significance of setting the story in Rome, where did that come from for you?

Yeah, I had a very unusual pandemic experience. I, my husband and I got stuck on opposite sides of the country for the first 3 months. So we didn't know when we were going to be able to see each other again. Then I finally got back to California where he was, and we spent a year there. And then he won something called the Rome Prize, which has been given for over 100-some-odd years to architects, artists, writers, thinkers, uh, philosophers to do work about Italy and very often specifically Rome. And David, uh, who's a historian and is not an architect, but writes a lot about architecture, was working on a project about an Italian architect and he won the Rome Prize in architecture to write about this Italian architect Piacentini. And somehow at the height of the pandemic, 6 days after the insurrection, they flew about 30 Rome Prize winners and their families into Italy. Uh, and we got to live at the top of the Janiculum Hill in, in a beautiful building across from their palazzo for 9 months. And it's usually a year when it's a non-pandemic, uh, experience. It, it was an extraordinary, uh, opportunity. It was terrifying. It was dangerous. It was beautiful. And the city was empty. Uh, there were no tourists, of course, and the Italians weren't really going out. So when we went out, the city really was empty. And the other Rome Prize winners became our friends, and they were all working on projects about the obelisks of the city or mosaics showing the dreams of 13th century popes. And everywhere we went, we would hear these extraordinary stories. And I would think to myself, that should be in a book. And I began to imagine these two boys walking around this empty city. And although I, even then I had a sense I didn't want to write a pandemic story, but the emptiness was very haunting and beautiful. And I saw these two boys and it was, and I didn't know who they were. I didn't know, you know, what their relationship to each other was. I didn't know where they came from really. But I put up a map in my home of Rome and started circling all the places that we went and loved in the city. And about, I don't know, I guess like a year, year and a half after we came back, back from Rome, I began to write the story where those two boys would connect all the places that I most loved in the city.

Ah, I love that. Well, you've written it in a way that although there are people, it's not empty. I can now, I can see that. I mean, it feels like you're in this world where it's just the two boys, and it's their adventure. And you are uncertain about who they are and what their backgrounds are to a great degree, one more than the other. But visiting all of these places that share these different stories that you learn from all of these different people, which is absolutely so— it's so beautifully done. And I don't want to give anything away because I want people to absolutely read this book. And I'm a grown adult. I know that I'm not your target audience. This is a YA novel. And it is fully, beautifully written for young adults. And it is just— I mean, I was really— I was just so moved by it. And I think just the imagination and the drawing. So I sat— like, the first half hour that I sat down with it, There's drawings, just so y'all know, there's drawings at the beginning and there's drawings at the end that Brian has done. And the ones at the beginning, I realized that the, there was the shadow in, in them. So then I was like, ooh, it's like, where's Waldo?

Like, yeah.

The, what was that? What was your thinking behind that?

So the, the book opens with about 100 pages of drawings that take you through an empty version of Rome that parallels the city that I experienced when I was there. The book takes place in 1986, again, not during the pandemic, but I set it at the height of the, of the summer in Rome when a lot of the city empties out. And it's a love story. And the idea that when you meet someone, it feels as if everyone other than the person you love with disappears and goes away. So that, so I drew an empty version of Rome. But yes, if you look carefully, there is one person who you may be following as you move through the images. And, and the idea for the images is that even if you've never been to Rome, by the time you get to the text, 'cause most of the book is text, you will have a memory of having been through the city so that when you get to the text where it says I went to the obelisk that's balanced on the back of a marble elephant. You will remember having seen the drawings of that elephant obelisk, and you will— and the characters go into a building with a big dome, uh, at the center of which is a hole that you can see the sky through, the Oculus, which is the, the Pantheon. But you will have seen it already in the drawings. So I'm creating a kind of memory of having been in Rome for the reader of whatever age. Uh, and I've never written a, a book specifically for young adults before. I've never really written about, uh, teenagers. I think the oldest my previous characters have gotten is 13. And I've had gay characters before in my book, The Marvels. There are characters who are, who turn out to be gay. Uh, but this was the first time I was really, uh, diving into what it means to fall in love for the first time. The sense of not knowing who the boys were ended up becoming part of the plot. So when the, the American boy, so it turns out it's an American boy and an Italian boy. And when the American boy starts asking the Italian boy about his life and his name and where he's from specifically, the Italian boy has a series of extremely strange answers, including, "I have no name. I'm almost 3,000 years old. I know everything about the city." And the American kid just can't figure out what this Italian boy is talking about. And, and they end up naming each other because the Italian boy won't tell him his real name. So he demands that the American boy name him, and then he names the American boy. And so for the for most of the book, they're calling each other names that they have invented. And that came outta the fact that I actually couldn't remember or couldn't figure out what names to give them. And the experiences that I was having as the writer can ended up becoming part of the plot. And then every time I basically, like every time I didn't know where we were gonna go next, I would just write another random scene. At a place in Rome that I love. Like, I, I think one of the first scenes I wrote in the book before I really knew who the boys were, was a scene that ends up later in the story where they are climbing a old, an old staircase in an old building together. And I, when I wrote the scene, I didn't know who the boys were. I didn't know what was at the top of the staircase, uh, for them. I knew what was at the top of the staircase in the real building I was remembering in Rome, but I just wrote this scene where they climb up the stairs and then I wrote a scene where they, you know, I was like, okay, well I guess I should write the scene where they meet. So that happens at the Elephant Obelisk. And then I eventually showed it to my editor and he said, well, you should write the scene where they kiss for the first time. And I was like, well, obviously that's gonna be on the grave of John Keats at the non-Catholic cemetery in Rome. Right, right. Clearly. Yeah, I do. Very clearly. And, and so I wrote the story out of order and it was only after I had 5 or 6 or 7 of these scenes that I began to put them into an order that makes sense. Okay. They have to meet first, even though I wrote that second and then they kiss, but that shouldn't be like the first, second, or third thing. That kind of felt like it should maybe be the fourth or fifth thing. And then I began to weave together other stories which were coming to me about other men in the city over time. And because I became very obsessed with the idea of time when I was in Rome, 'cause you can see the literal representation of the burial and excavation of time everywhere you go, right? You go see the ruins, you see the, you can go down, there's a church called Santa Clemente, which I write about, is a 12th century church on top of a 9th century church on top of a 3rd century church on top of a Mithraic cult. Which is on top of the water, the river, the underground river that feeds all of the fountains of Rome that's been there forever. So you feel like you can see and move through time itself. And so I wrote a love story between men in the 1940s, in 1900, and in the 1600s. 'Cause I, I wanted to look at queer history. 'Cause I'd growing up gay in New Jersey in the '70s, I didn't know anybody else was gay. And it wasn't until I, got to college in high school and college and then to New York after high school, that I really began to learn that I had a history, that I had a culture, and that people like me had always been around since the beginning of time. And I wanted to say to young people today, we have always existed. And even in times when people don't want us to exist, we have the right to fall in love. We have the right to be happy and we have the ability to meet other people like us and to fall in love. And I wrote this story before the current administration retook over, but the, that sense has always been there. Like no matter what is going on, there are places everywhere where it's difficult to come out, it's difficult to be queer. And that sense of history for me gave me a, a feeling of stability. And, and actually right now it's giving me One of the few feelings of stability that I have in this very destabilizing time is being able to talk about our history and reminding myself and others that we have always existed. We have fought and we have not, and we're not going away.

Correct. You have persevered. And I think that is such a powerful part of this story. I love That was one of my favorite parts. I think that was why I was having a hard time sharing also that my husband had asked me to give a summary of the story because I was so touched when I finished it last night. And I was having— I was struggling too because I was really just processing through all these different layers that you had created. And that is exactly— that was the feeling that I got was like, oh, this is just so beautiful. Like, it was sweet and it was beautiful, and it was— and you captured that, what I imagine, if memory serves, what that, you know, that first crush is like, right? Like, that first kiss when you're, you know, that 16 years old. And then layered on top of that, what it might feel like to be two boys or two girls, right? How— where does that come in too? And it was so subtle. It's just so beautifully done. But to your point about right now, I think that, you know, this is the perfect time for this book to come out because it is just a way to speak to all these kids like, hey, hang in there. Like, We have always been here. We will always continue to be here and we must persevere.

Yeah. Yeah. I knew, I knew when I was writing the story that I did not want to write a coming out scene. I, and I didn't want there to be violence. I didn't want the, I didn't want either of the kids to get hurt, but I also wanted to be sure to acknowledge the fact that we live in a dangerous world. That there are real threats out there. Like it's, it's not about ignoring the danger. It's not about making pretend the danger doesn't exist. The characters in the book are aware of the threats in, in each of the generations.

Mm-hmm.

But the thing that interested me in writing about was finding someone who understands you, finding someone who sees you for who you are, who you are able to see. And that I felt transcends time. It transcends specifics. It transcends history in a lot of ways because like that, I feel pretty sure that the desires that we feel now are parallel to very much like the same kinds of desires people have always felt through time. We have a billion more words for it now.

Right.

We have, we have so much language to talk about it now, which is, it's actually helpful. It could sometimes be polarizing because sometimes you say, well, I'm this and I'm not that. And then now I'm that and I'm not this. Whereas before there were no words for any of it. You just felt different things. And, and maybe you were able to live that way or not live as you truly felt you yourself to be, but it doesn't mean. You weren't, that, that there weren't people feeling and being exactly like who you are now. And if that makes sense.

Yeah.

Yeah. And so, so writing about the threats in the, in the world, right? Rome as a dangerous city in 1986, AIDS is rising. There's a moment where the characters acknowledge that AIDS exists, but for these two boys, I was aware, you know, that sometimes you walk home at night and you don't get beat up. Like, like sometimes you get home safely. And, and that's what I was more interested in exploring and giving these two boys each other. And because I, because I, I should say that when I was 16, I did not experience anything like what these two boys are experiencing. I was very much in the closet. I did not, uh, have anything like this at all until I was about 30 years old. So I'm, I'm also imagining a love story half a lifetime earlier than I actually experienced it. But again, that those feelings seemed universal and they felt like they were also not related to how old you happen to be, whether you're 16 when you first fall in love or 30, that, that feeling I would imagine is related, that they are, they are similar.

I, yes, I would imagine so. Was it difficult for you to, because you did do this so very well where you discussed the fullness of what was going on with relation to 1986 and then the early 1900s and then the 1500s. And you wove all of that together and you wrote these characters in a way that, like you just said, you under— was that difficult for you to write them? Because I've read a lot of books where it does weave in more of the violence, more of the just abject terror, and this didn't have that, but it also didn't pretend that that doesn't exist? Was that hard?

It just, it's not that it was hard. It just wasn't like I didn't have any other choice. These were the stories that came to me. These were the stories that I wanted to tell. And as I imagined the, the other love stories, you know, in the 1940s, it's two boys who are refugees and they are put up And this is true in Cinecittà, which is the movie studio in Rome, uh, where movies continued to be filmed while refugee camps were being set up in a lot of the buildings and areas. And then there's a story deep in Italy in 1900 when no one has any real idea of what— that homosexuality even exists. But there are two young men who are spending a lot of time together, and at a certain point it becomes clear that even though these two young men have no role models, that they want to be with each other. And in order to do that, they have to leave everything they love. They have to go start a new life, and there's real pain and sacrifice involved in that. And it's something a lot of people may not be able to do, leave leave everything they know, leave their families, leave their mothers who they love. But there was no possible way that they could be together. And again, they, they don't have any language for what they are. They just have each other and, and the awareness that they want to be together in a way that they can't be. And then the third story, which goes all the way back to the, uh, 1500s, 1600s about an assistant of the sculptor Bernini's. Who falls in love with a sailor is also happening in a way outside of the culture. Like, like they, they meet on a ship. There is a very forgiving— forgiving isn't quite the right word cuz no one really understands why they are spending so much time together. But there's an, but there's a sense that something special is happening. And, and I, they would probably identify it as a friendship, right? Like as a special bond. But these, these kinds of relationships, these kinds of loves must have existed, right? They, like, it must have happened. And I've done a huge amount of research. My husband's a historian and, and we know that couples have, people have existed, people have found each other. And I, as I was saying, I just really wanted to give these people each other and, and to let that, and let the stories play out the way they play out with each other, as opposed to playing out because they have to deal with homophobia or they have to deal with violence or they, or one of them is killed in a, attack, you know, which, which again, like, I don't want to underplay how serious that is. Right. And how real it is. The reason we have that in so many stories is because it is real.

It's real. Exactly.

Hey, it's just that, it's just that for myself writing the stories that I want to write, I found myself uninterested in, in writing one of those stories and, and seeing how I could, how much I could write outside of what certain expectations for stories like this might be.

Right. Well, and I think that especially if you were wanting to write a story for young adults or teenagers specifically, that is difficult. To add in those specific elements. Another point that I wanted to hear your thoughts on and really how you advocate for this, and this is writing stories so that young people can see themselves in these stories. And I think that's a— you did such a beautiful job of this because it's not just young people who are going to see themselves in the stories. It's going to be people of all ages. But I think it allows a young person to read this and to say, and then if it's not identifying with one of the boys, it could be identifying with one of the other characters that are from a different time.

Yeah. Uh, I, I think it's important for us to be able to see ourselves in books. I think the first book I ever really saw myself in was when I was in my mid, early 20s and work, living and working in New York. And a young adult book came out called Weetsie Bat by Francesca Lia Block. And it was the first time I saw queer characters in a book where the queerness was just a part of the fabric of their lives. And it felt like it reflected something about myself. And it, it like, still to this day, when I think about Weetsie Bat, I feel like it's mine. And I, I own it in a certain way. So, so there is a desire to write a book that young queer people can see themselves in, can find themselves in, in different ways. But wanting to be seen, wanting to be understood isn't just a queer experience. That's a, it's a human experience.

Absolutely.

So, so for any, any young person who, or anybody who has had that experience, longs for that experience, wonders what that experience might be like. If they're not interested in that experience, but are curious, the idea that, that there is a way to see yourself in the book or to see into the life of someone else, right? Like the idea of doors and windows and mirrors. And some things reflect us back. Some things we see through into other lives that we wouldn't know about otherwise.

Correct.

And, and that's just as important. That's how we build empathy. And one of the great things about books is that we can learn about people and lives that are, that are not like ours, but it, but also ultimately I do think that the idea of connect, finding a connection in someone, someone whose life is unlike mine helps me understand the sort of common human experience. And you know, one of the hardest characters to write in this book was the American boy's mom. 'Cause she's, she's the one who brings him there for, for 10 weeks. They travel all the time 'cause she's an academic. So they're, they have a very itinerant life and it's hard to be an academic. It's hard to be a single mom. And so I did a lot of research. A friend of my husband's is a single academic mom. And so I interviewed her about her experience. And it's 1986, so it, you know, there's not a lot of positive queer representation in the media. But like I said, I knew I didn't want there to be a coming out scene, but at the end they, they have to leave Italy because it's the end of her 10-week work visa and her job is coming to an end. She works with old books at a mysterious museum and she's helping to decipher some 17th, 16th century handwriting. She's a paleographer and works with old books and bad handwriting. It's an actual job and field of study. And I, I, I just had this sense that even like, he's so mean to his mom. Like he is so dismissive. He is so frustrated by her and she tries, like she really, really tries. But I think one of the things that I, wanted to explore with her was what it means to recognize that your kid is growing up and that your kid is finding their own way. And sometimes you need to let your kid go do something, even though you've worked really hard to plan a special day. And so that, that frustration that she feels with him is very real. She doesn't guilt him out. She doesn't make him feel bad. Ultimately, I mean, she expresses she's angry. She expresses she's annoyed, but she lets him go. And so I think at the end, when she's begun to become aware of something, like it does not say in the book she's aware he's gay.

Right.

But she's aware of something. And I just felt like she'd be okay. Like whatever, whatever it is that, that it's like the, the reaction of every parent isn't always, oh my God, you're gay. That's terrible. You know, Christine Jorgensen, the first internationally famous male to female transsexual, went to Denmark in the 1950s to have her transition surgery. And she wrote a letter to her parents cuz they didn't know why she went to Denmark beyond just visiting family cuz she was of Danish descent. And she wrote them a letter that said, I have a medical condition and I am now your daughter. And their response in the mid-1950s was a telegram that said, dear Christine, we love you more than ever, mom and dad. And that's maybe that's not the most common experience, but it's hap— it happens and it's real.

Absolutely. It is. Yeah, that was my experience.

Yes.

I think that actually that happens more often than not. It's just not as dramatic and newsworthy. Yeah. I will say, 'cause I do wanna talk about that, but I have to go back to the mom because before you even said it, I was like, I've gotta say something about the mom because I was so struck with how well you wrote her. Okay. And, um, And just, and again, like, yes, absolutely thinking about the time, thinking about the fact that she is a single mom, thinking about the fact that she is an academic and how her brain works doing the work that she did, and having teenagers because teenagers are tough, man. Like, they're tough if you're not a single mom and an academic. They're gonna, I mean, they kind of suck a little bit, but—

And I have a lot of friends and family who, you know, have kids who are teenagers or had them. And I know no matter what, it's hard for everybody.

Exactly. But they're also like magical. They're like these extraordinary little creatures that are just kind of magical to watch. And so I thought that you did her character justice. You wrote her well. And you wrote her responses to him well. And I 1,000% agree that I was like, she's going to be totally fine with this. Like, this is not going to ruffle any feathers. She's going to be like, awesome. Yeah, I love you. You're my kid.

And I would imagine as an academic, she must know gay people in, in her life, right? And so even if she doesn't, even if she's not aware that her son is gay, there's something about him that, like, like we were saying, that she recognizes is perhaps different. And, and that she's, you know, I, I did want to leave you with the sense that ultimately they would be fine.

Mm-hmm. Yes. And you did, you definitely did. Yeah. So bravo.

She was, she was, she, she definitely took me the longest to find, like she was a blank space for a long time, but then I feel like once I, once I found her, she filled in very quickly.

I can see that. Um, well, especially the, in the time that you were writing. So it was a very specific time. And, um, I, yes, I thought you just, you, you nailed it. So, um, good, good, good job. Thank you. Because that's, that's why you came on here today. You brought this up a little, little bit, but I just want to go kind of go into it a little bit deeper. And that is talking about the role that you believe books and art and media have, especially right now, fostering empathy and connection and awareness. How can we really use those to make this moment that we're in better? Yeah.

Well, I mean, I think that's why the book banning movement is so insidious is because they're using books to try to erase us, to try to say that, that we don't exist, that people who have struggled, people from many, many different minority communities don't deserve to have their stories told, or that this, the struggle is not worth sharing. And it's not just not worth sharing, but is, uh, that it shouldn't be shared and should be suppressed.

Right.

And that the— and so the more that we can get these stories out there and into the hands of the people who need them, the more that we can sooner find comfort, right? Because we— I grew up, like I said, I, I grew up, I didn't know anyone else was gay. I kept everything almost entirely secret and I survived, right? I made it through my entire childhood, my entire teenage years with a secret. And I was eventually able to get myself out into the world, into a place where I could then let that secret come out. And of course that secret was me, right? Like the secret was who I really am.

Right.

Right. And so I think part of what's so disorienting is young people are— I saw everything get built up, right? I saw everything. I saw the fights pay off in a lot of ways, the fights to get AIDS funding, the fights for marriage equity. And now young people are watching things getting taken away.

Right.

And so that, that feels, uh, I can't, I can't imagine what that's like as a young person to see. I know how disorienting and horrifying it is for me as an adult.

Right.

But to, but to be a young person coming up into that world is a, a particular horror. But I think that's why it's more important, even more important for us who, you know, who have lived longer to be able to say, like we were talking about earlier, we have history on our side. We have each other. It's the importance of community, right? I've been, I've been going to a lot of conferences speaking about this book to teachers, librarians, and booksellers. And it's, it's people coming from all over the country to one place to talk about many, many issues that affect their work and their interests and their, and, and what's important to them, which is children and making sure that children have the information that they need. And so there's the, so what it reminds you, and I think of what it reminds everyone at these conferences about and everyone who comes to an event where there are like-minded people is you realize, oh, we need each other. Like we, we need the community. And so being able to. I remember that and know like, no matter what happens with these censorship issues, we can still, there are still ways to find each other. And you know, and there was nothing like the internet, of course, when I was growing up. And now it, I think so, so therefore, like, if you're a young queer kid in a place that does not accept you, you may never feel safe telling anybody that you're queer. Uh, and you may need to keep yourself hidden in certain ways for your safety, and that's okay.

Right? Absolutely.

But you are probably aware that there are a lot of people out there in the world who are like you, right? Like, there are very few young people today, I think, who are completely unaware that there are other queer people, that there are trans people, that there are that these struggles exist because the book banning reminds you how powerful people think books are, right? Because the internet doesn't go away and the internet is full of horrific, terrible, incorrect lies. But in there are, is the truth as well and is access to books and people who are able to speak., in a more direct, clear, honest, loving way. Right. So the, the ex— the experience is very different, but the danger is very real. And David Levithan, who is my friend and who edited Runaway with Me, also is one of the founders of Authors Against Book Banning, which is doing a lot of work around the country, helping organizations figure out ways to fight The book banning, I signed so many books at these conferences for people in red states who felt like they were still gonna put the book on their shelves. So I, like, they had me sign it to their school library or their public library, but then other, other people said, just sign the book and I will give it directly to someone who I think needs it. And they, like, there are people out there who, who have your back. And, and who, and, and who can offer support. But I, but it's, it, it definitely is going to remain challenging and become more challenging in many, many ways. But that, I think, but I think ultimately that idea of knowing there's a community out there, even if you can't get to it right now, right? It's out there and they're working. People are fighting to make your life better, even when you feel like you're alone and you just see the onslaught of horror, there are a, there's a huge number of people who care about you and love you and want you to be okay, which I think is one of the messages you've been working hard to get out with this podcast is there are people out there who have your back, even when you think that no one around you does.

Exactly. Exactly. I mean, I think that is the, the, one of the most important messages and things that we can just say, hang in there, hang in there. And there is something, I appreciate the fact that you said people don't realize that it actually does make a difference when you write your senators and when you call them, because when you flood with calls and emails, like that does make a difference. It may not feel like it does, but that's something that anyone can do, right? If you're a kid, you can do that. And there are, I also feel like it's always so worth mentioning that there are safe spaces online for you. So even as all of the, it feels like the world is on fire and that there is all of this ugliness, like there are these places that are, are still protected for you. And, and there's all of us who are, who are fighting. And I do believe very similarly to you. I mean, I feel like You know, it's the empathy, it's the connection, it's the community, it's the kindness, it's the love. And that's what we just—

yeah, yeah. I'm friends with, uh, Celeste Lassine, who's one of the founders of The Trevor Project.

And of course you are. I love Celeste. Celeste is a good buddy of mine.

You know, Celeste's work with The Trevor Project and, and the new project, uh, which is called The Future Perfect Project, helps young queer people come together online and write and think about the world creatively. And, uh, it, it, it's very, very important. And Celeste creates a lot of online safe spaces. And I always feel very empowered whenever I speak to Celeste.

Don't you? I know. It definitely makes you feel like, okay, we've got this. Yeah. Do this.

Yeah.

Um, yes. Oh my goodness. Celeste has been on, and then I had a bunch of the kids on once too.

Yeah, that's great.

Just so good. It's such a great, great, great space that they offer. So I would love to know if there's anything else that you would like to share as we kind of wrap everything up. I want you to know how grateful I am that you wrote this story and And that you wrote it in this way that is so layered and beautiful. And I want everyone to run out and buy it. I will have links. There's gonna be lots of links for all these things that we've talked about. So not to worry.

Thank you. It means a lot to me to talk to you about this and to be a part of a group of people who are working to help young people and helping to Helping young people to know the things that I didn't know, like, like just learning about my own history and, and, and hopefully giving a little bit of stability, which is what history I think can do for us to, to people who may feel alone out there, that we are not alone.

No, no, you are not alone. Oh my goodness. Brian, thank you so much for being here. And I just send you so much love and good vibes as you continue on your book tour and spreading the word about this beautiful book.

Thank you so much. It was really wonderful to talk to you.

I am so glad you were here today. There is a lot going on right now, and I hope this episode brought you comfort, helped you feel more informed, and empowered you to be the next ripple, whether that is through renewed connection with your child, a friend, your community, or out in the world. Reach out if you have a question you'd like for me to answer in an upcoming episode. Join others in community on my Patreon and share this podcast. Liking, rating, sharing, and reviewing all help get More Human, More Kind in front of others who need to know that they are not alone. And right now, that is no small thing. Remember to take breaks, big breaths, hug your kids, and tell someone how much you appreciate them. Until next time.