These Courageous Conversations Can Save LGBTQ Teens: 4 Questions Every Parent & Ally Should Know

Welcome to Just Breathe: Parenting Your LGBTQ Teen, the podcast transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child. Filled with awesome guests, practical strategies, and moving stories, host Heather Hester always makes you feel like you're having a cozy chat. Wherever you are on this journey, right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone. And here is Heather for this week's amazing episode.

Welcome to Just Breathe. I am so happy you are here today. I'm really, really excited for you to hear this interview, uh, today with Jackie Simmons. Oh my goodness, did we have a good time, and does she just bring so much fantastic energy and really, really important information to us. So Jackie is the director of the Teen Suicide Prevention Society, which is a nonprofit 501, and their mission is to make teen suicide a thing of the past. And the way that they go about this is different than anything else that we have come across. I am really excited for you to learn from her today and to just hear all of the information that she has to offer us and to share with us and really teach us about how we should have these talks that save lives. That's what she calls them, and they truly are just amazing. They're not about the doom and gloom. They're not scary. And this will just really, I think, give you such a shift. So without further ado, I am so excited to share Jackie Simmons with you.

So Jackie, I am so excited that you are here with us today and that we get to hear not only your really moving story, but what you have been doing with your story and with your life and with this passion project that you have. So let's just start out with telling my audience a little bit about you and what got you into this type of work.

Oh, thank you. Um, what got me into this type of work? What gets us on your podcast is the fact that we're parents and we've been there, done that, and survived to tell the story, right? And my story of how I got into doing what I'm doing now as the director of the Teen Suicide Prevention Society is not even my story. It's my daughter Stephanie's story. At the age of 37, delivering a 7-minute message that matters in the front of a room, her first public speaking. She had been part of a group that I'd been coaching to deliver these 7-minute talks. And she was the first one speaking that day. I mean, she was in a state, you know, she was both nervous and excited, that state you get into, right? You give a talk.

Yes.

Oh my God, Heather, everything worked that day. The videographer was set, the slides worked, the microphones worked, the audience took their seats. I'm super proud of my daughter. I mean, oh my God, she looked amazing in her dark blouse and flowery skirt, and her hair was all pulled up in combs. She was first up on the speaker's roster. The lights dim. And I welcomed her to the front of the stage. Everyone help me welcome Stephanie Ashton. She confidently walked up and shook my hand. And I went to the back of the room and she said, "3,000 teenagers will attempt to take their own lives today in the United States." And I went, Huh? I mean, thank God I was in the back of the room and nobody could see my expression.

Right.

I didn't know the number was that large. I had no clue. And Heather, I did not know that suicide was her topic.

Oh my goodness.

Oh, she continued with, when I was 14, after a bad day of shopping. I stood in my bathroom. The pain of not fitting into any clothes was just more proof that I didn't fit in anywhere. Ah. And that pain was more than I could bear. So I took a razor and cut into my left eye, trying to stop the pain and end my life. In the back of the room, I could feel the blood drain from my face, because while I had lived through that with her for over 23 years, we hadn't really talked about it. Have you ever been hijacked by a bad memory? Oh yes. Only my 30 years of stress management training kept me from just crawling into a corner and bawling my eyes out. Stephanie continued her talk with, "It wasn't my only attempt. There were others." But outside of getting professional help, I've never really talked about it. Not even with Mom. Mom and I talked around it. It was too awkward, too painful, easy to avoid. We had the other talks. You know, we had the talk about sex and Mom and I had the talk about drugs and we had the talk about alcohol. And then I went to college on a dry campus. Heather, that means the kegs were hidden in the showers of the girls' dorm.

Yes.

And the next thing she said was, but we didn't talk about suicide. And I still struggle with suicidal thoughts. In the back of the room, I went from pale to bone cold as I realized the struggles that my child had faced alone because I didn't have the courage to talk about suicide. She finished her talk with, "On my suicide avoidant journey." I've learned tons of coping skills, and now I want to teach those skills to teens before they need them. Yes, before they need them. Oh my God, there was not a dry eye in the room, including mine. I am sure everybody— yeah, I mean, she is like— everybody stood up, gave her a standing ovation. People rushed up and hugged her and thanked her for being so willing, so vulnerable, so brave. Yeah. And in the back of the room, I was frozen, absolutely torn between pride for her bravery and guilt and shame for my cowardice. And then an interesting thing happened in my brain, Heather. I realized 3,000 teens attempting to take their own lives every day mean that every day 6,000 parents start to live the guilt nightmare that I've lived. And every day over 20,000 grandparents, aunts, uncles, brothers, and sisters start to live that nightmare. And every day, hundreds of thousands of classmates, teachers, boyfriends, girlfriends start to live the guilt nightmare, all probably just as blindsided by it as I had been. And then I wondered, What if Stephanie was right? What if the key to stopping teen suicide was as simple as having the talk about suicide before you think it's needed, before your child starts to struggle with suicidal thoughts? Oh my God, the missing link, something so simple and obvious that professionals have tripped over it. You know, simple and obvious, like putting wheels on luggage.

Yeah.

I mean, I bet this is a generation now that doesn't even know that there once was a time that we didn't have wheels. Yeah. I mean, come on. Simple and obvious.

Right.

So after that event, Stephanie and I decided to work together. Who knew that was possible? Along with her two sisters. We founded the Teen Suicide Prevention Society and started figuring out how to help people have the talk. So we call it the talk that saves lives. And that's the mission that we're on now is to make sure that everyone knows not only that the talk is needed, but how to have it in a way that doesn't make your teen's eyes roll back in their head.

Right.

I don't know about you, but have you ever tried to have the talk about one of those topics with a kid?

Oh, all of the above. And, you know, like you, my talks over the years from, you know, when I started with my oldest down to how I have the talk now with my youngest, these talks look very different than— with Connor, I don't know about you, but the oldest, you're so nervous. You don't know what to say, right? You don't know how to approach things. You don't know if you're supposed to be talking about them or not, or if it's the right age to be talking about these things. Is it too early? Is it too late? Is it too much information? Is it not enough? Right? And then by my youngest, and everything that we've been through in our house, you know, he's basically had the talk in like 1,000 ways, right? All of these talks, because all of these topics have been discussed in some way, right? Because it's just now part of the discussion. And that's, I'm really curious when you say having the talk, what is your recommendation? How does a parent who, you know, perhaps this is their oldest child or this is their first time doing this. How does a parent approach this? Because it is scary.

Oh, I'm so glad you asked. Actually, I have a great idea because what we did was we created a guide, an absolute— let's give you the rails that you can ride on to have this talk. And we created a really unique way to get it started. Instead of talking about it, would it be okay if we just role-play it and we demonstrate it? Sure, sure. Cool. Okay, so here's the invitation to the talk.

Okay.

Hey Heather Hester Hester, I'm part of the mission to make teen suicide a thing of the past. They gave me a guide and I need to practice it. Would you have a few minutes to help me practice my guide?

I would be delighted to.

Awesome. It's only 4 questions. Are you ready? Yes. All right. Question 1: Heather Hester, have you heard about the rise in teen suicides?

I haven't. Will you tell me about it?

Thank you. In a minute.

Okay.

Question 2: Heather, do you have a story? Do you have a friend who's tried or died?

Yes, I do have a story. Several.

Thank you. Question 3: Heather Hester, have you ever thought of leaving that way?

Yes, I have.

Thank you. Question 4: Heather Hester, today, why stay? What— oh, I'm sorry, I, I blew up my own script. Here we go, I got it right here. Why stay? What are your reasons for staying?

Uh, so many. Um, my biggest reasons: my husband and my kids.

What else?

This beautiful life. There's just too much, too much beauty and too much that I am passionate and curious about.

Another way to look at it, Heather Hester Hester, what's so good about your life that you want more of it?

Oh my goodness. I think I'm making this harder than it's supposed to be.

Well, you can't do it wrong, I guess.

Right? You can't do it wrong. There's just— just being here. Just— just— it's a gift.

And one of the fun things about this, Heather Hester— so thank you. Yay! So that's the talk. It is just that simple on the outside. Anyone can do it. We've wrapped a full training program around it and it's all available for free on our website. So what happened in your brain is something that— are you familiar with neuroplasticity, the neuroscience that's out now? What's happened in the last decade or so is fascinating with how the brain really works.

It is. It's extraordinary. So, yes, I'd like to learn how this— how these things correlate.

All right, here we go. You have— you have had a neural network that had emotional energy around the topic of suicide. Okay. So the first 3 questions are closed-ended questions. All of the coaches I've ever trained, freak out when they first read the guide because it's a closed-ended question. I'm like, yes, and you will keep it this way.

Great.

Yeah, these are, these are verbatim questions. Everybody promises to actually read the guide, and now you see why, because when I stopped reading the guide, I flubbed the question, right? So you're activating all of that energy, all of the memories, all of that emotion, and then In a second, the minute your brain starts looking for reasons for staying, all of that energy gets whoom and pushed over into a brand new neural network that starts being built out. It's like a new file folder in the filing cabinet in your mind, and it's labeled Reasons for Staying. So now your reticular activating system. This is the filter in your brain that allows in less than 10% of what you're exposed to, because otherwise we'd go crazy, right? What it allows in is the percentage that is most closely aligned with where your thinking is, what you believe, what you think about habitually. So now you've got this new thought, this new file folder labeled Reasons for Staying. So if a random thought of leaving, which is normal according to Sigmund Freud— suicidal thoughts are normal, they're part of our, the natural negative bias and problem-solving mechanism of our brain, worst-case scenario— so they're natural, they're normal. Now one of those thoughts of leaving comes in, it's got to bump up against this file folder of reasons for staying, so you're less likely to get hooked by it and into a negative echo chamber. And all that happened in that very short time.

Wow. Less than 5 minutes.

Less than 5 minutes. You took on a layer of emotional Teflon. Now here's something freaky. You ready?

Yes.

So did everyone listening. Really? Because of something called mirror neurons in the mind, in the brain. When you started looking, when I started asking you the questions, everybody listening, their brains started answering the questions too, because we can't help but answer a question. It's how our brains are wired.

Yeah.

So questions are very powerful. So everyone listening got this journey. And as soon as you went into your reasons for staying, their brains went into theirs and they started comparing, contrasting, adding to the reasons for staying folder in their own mind. Now they have your reasons for staying and their brain was like, yeah, that's me. No, that's not me. I've got this one. She didn't say that one. I wonder what— yeah, I mean, and so this chatter is going on on in their heads, activating this new neural pathway, filling the file folder labeled reasons for staying.

That's amazing. That is so cool. And I love science. I really love science. And that is— I mean, that is the coolest science that I've heard in a while.

It's—

when I'm teaching The How to Have the Talk and the science behind it. What happens in people's brains? I get asked a lot, Jackie, why do people take their own lives? And I'm like, for the same reason you do anything. It seemed like a good idea at the time. No, it was the only option they could see at the time.

Right.

That's why people do it. And it's not because they want to die. It's just because they cannot imagine that their life is ever going to get better. So they take that slide from helpless to hopeless, and suicide seems to be the only option available. When I'm training Advocates for Living, which is the program that we created, we don't take suicide off the table as an option. We just use neuroscience to make sure that their brain has other options always. So this forced question script builds a buffer between whoever I'm speaking with and an edge that they may not have even known they were near. And here's what I know. When people start using this guide and having these talks with the people they care about, we call them the— your 20, and I'll explain in a second. When you have the talk with the people in your list of 20, your brain is mirroring, so you are becoming suicide-proof. You're building a bigger buffer for yourself as well as for the people you're talking to. And what I know is if you've got a buffer between you and an edge, no one No one will ever need to talk you off a ledge.

That is really extraordinary.

We've been crazy busy getting all of these things tried, tested, taught. We have over 100 advocates trained, and the talk that guide is available for free. They don't have to have any special training. They can just download the guide, watch some videos if they have any questions about it, and start talking to their 20. Now, your 20. Heather Hester, when someone takes their own life, it massively impacts an average of 20 people. So we decided to take the power of 20 and flip it, just like the script flips what happens in your brain, that guide to stop suicide. Lateral thoughts, flips. The power of 20. Who are the 20 people who, if they were not here, it would massively impact you? Not about suicide. This is not about looking for at-risk anybody. We believe waiting for signs that somebody is at risk is looking for trouble. Because often nowadays, the first sign that somebody struggling is an attempt and they don't all survive. Correct. So we believe in proactive, powerful proactivity. Get positively proactive and have the talk now. You talk about when to have the talk, what age?

Now.

Now.

Now. Why? The Center for Disease Control says Children as young as 7 are taking their own lives. And that's been true for a long time. That was true before COVID It's worse now. And it's worse in other cultures, which is why we partnered with the, uh, VIKO. It's a community center in the Makuru slums of Nairobi, Kenya. This is the poorest of the poor. I mean, we are talking no electricity, no running water. Water in most of these homes. And the community center manager reached out to us, and the Teen Suicide Prevention Society has been providing them with training and with the resources so they could have a safe place for the kids to come before and after school because their homes are not safe.

I love that.

Oh, it's amazing. When we started— well, we didn't do it, we just provided some resources. When they started having a hot breakfast for the kids, the school attendance rate went from just over 20% to over 80%. For many kids, this was the only meal they got all day.

Sure. Sure.

Yeah. Wow.

That is extraordinary.

Yeah, we don't know. A little bit goes a long way. By the way, that's why our symbol is a teaspoon.

Ta-da!

This is my magic engraved teaspoon that every member of the society gets one of these. And it's because just a little, like Mary Poppins said, a spoonful of sugar. Okay, just a little positivity will prevent suicide. The The little bit of potential, the little bit of possibility is all that it takes to stop someone from being stuck in a negative echo chamber. And without it, somebody has a thought. I'm not going to live like this anymore. And if they have it often enough, they go, oh, something might be wrong. And if they feel like they can't talk about it— and there are really good reasons not to talk about it. We started collecting the top reasons that people have for not talking about suicidal thinking. Reason number 1: I don't want to be a burden to my family. Reason number 2: I don't want people to think I need to see somebody. The stigma is huge. Reason number 3: in many states, including the one that I live in, there is something called a 72-hour psychiatric hold if a professional thinks that you are at risk of harming yourself or others. And There are stories of 15-year-olds being taken out of counselors' offices in handcuffs and put into psychiatric hold. Did it save her life? Maybe. Did it traumatize her? Definitely.

Absolutely.

And because those stories get around, people are reluctant to talk about it.

Sure.

Oh my God. The director of the institute, the Suicide Prevention Institute in New York City, Started with a new physician. You know what it's like when you go to a new doctor, right?

Yeah.

You know, there's a stack of paperwork you have to fill out.

Yeah.

He filled out the paperwork, gave it to the nurse at the desk. She looked it over and said, oh, this is fine. Oh, are you sure you want to answer this question this way? And he's like, well, I'm not going to lie, right? The next thing he knew, he was in a wheelchair with an armed security guard on each side of him, and he was being taken to the psychiatric ward intake. One of the nurses there recognized him and said, "What are you doing here?" And he told her, and they got it straightened out. He's the director of the Suicide Institute for a reason. The man knows what it is to struggle with suicidal thoughts. And because he struggles with suicidal thoughts, they, by law, their interpretation of the law— and this is the challenge, the law is subject to interpretation, right? And it happens all the time. And because that happens all the time, people are afraid to talk about it, which is why we created the proactive approach, because it does— the way that the questions are worded and answered does not trip that reporting requirement.

Right.

So it makes it safe.

Right.

But here's what happens. You realize you've got a thought. You're scared of it. You can't talk about it. So you're trying not to think about it. You ever tried not to think about an elephant?

Yeah.

That's what happens in the brain. Now that you're trying not to think about it, you're actually thinking about not thinking about it. And we call that doubling down on the thought. And your subconscious mind is elegantly designed to pay attention to what you're thinking about because it figures that if you're thinking about it, it's important, right? And then your subconscious mind goes to work. Looking for opportunities and creating plans to bring about what you think about. This is the Law of Attraction in action. It's the other side of the coin that people don't talk about. What you think about, your subconscious mind tries to bring about. So when you are caught in this negative echo chamber and you're a teen where you have part of your brain missing, that whole prefrontal cortex that gives you perspective and pause isn't fully developed.

Right.

Heather Hester, all it takes is subconscious plan to cross opportunity and they're gone. Kids are waking up in emergency rooms saying, I have no idea how this happened. Because their conscious mind was not engaged in the activation. Wow. Oh, yeah. And when we realized that that's what was happening, that this was the reality, the subconscious mind is nonjudgmental. It will work to bring you whatever you are thinking about. That's its job, right? Once we understood that, we realized that we were not going to be able to teach neuroscience. And I am not a positive psychologist, even though I use the tools that they create. We knew we had to do something different because every suicide prevention program that I could find kicks in only if somebody is deemed at risk, has a diagnosis, or a previous attempt.

Right.

Then that's not prevention in my mind. That's intervention. It's too late to prevent the struggle with suicidal thoughts if they have one of those qualifications. Right. So we went upstream. We went pure prevention. Totally proactive. Have the talk before you think it's needed.

I mean, it's It's actually brilliant. It really is. Because I mean, I've heard, I'm sure that you have heard so many stories since you started this society, but oh my goodness, I'm just sitting here thinking like the number of lives that I can think of off the top of my head and the number of kids that I know that just having this conversation and I think for parents, taking the scariness out of it. Just like we have these conversations about all the other things that you named, right? And they don't have to be big formal conversations. You took the formality out of it, right? You made it an actual conversation, not a lecture.

And because it's verbatim, No probing allowed because they volunteered to have the talk and they knew the topic. Right. But here's what's really fun. Remember the mirror neurons? If the team decides that they want to play and so they take the script and they have the talk with their parents or somebody else, they're building out that suffer in their own mind, right, by helping other people.

Amazing. I mean, really so cool. Well done.

Oh, thank you.

Really well done. Jesse, how long— I just want to like quick, I have a quick, just I'm curious how long that you have— you and your daughter have been doing this? How long is it?

August 3rd, 2019.

Okay.

A day I'm definitely going to remember is the day she gave her talk.

Okay.

What happened after that is that I'd been working on an ebook of inspiring stories for teens, and I just went, wait a minute, what if we could get people to break the silence? This was our first attempt to break the silence, because that was our motto at first. We were hashtag break the silence, right? So we wrote a book. 20 of my friends submitted chapters, and in 3 weeks, in September of 2019, we published our first book, Make It a Great Day: The Choice Is Yours, for teens. And we had a buy one, give two program. So anybody who bought You bought one book, we gave two books to teens for free. One for you, one for a friend. You read, talk. And then we realized that this was going to get bigger and it was going to need more. And so two things happened in the beginning of 2020. One is that we became a nonprofit, the Teen Suicide Prevention Society. Nonprofit status was awarded and COVID hit, and that number of 3,000 attempts a day was before COVID Yeah. So we realized we had to have more. We people— the book wasn't going to be enough and just talking to teens wasn't going to be enough because suicide rates rates across the board. The statistics of suicides tracks only deaths, not attempts. And they say number one cause of death among our teenagers is accidents, and number two is suicide. And because we don't know what caused the accidents, There's a lot of speculation, and that's not anywhere near the iceberg of attempts. So the number of people struggling with suicidal thoughts between the ages of 15 and 24, according to the Center for Disease Control in August of 2020, was 25%. It was double what it had been just 2 years earlier. So we know this is a bigger issue than anybody can bring a light to. And everything I could find still is if you think they're struggling, ask these questions. There's a program in Canada, Let's Talk, coming up later this month. There's programs all around the world that are helping people have the talk the talk with their friends and family when you are afraid they are struggling.

Right.

Great. If you think they're struggling, do it. Give them the 800 number. Sit with them. Because this is what we tell people. When you're having the talk, you know, that we did, if somebody has had thoughts of leaving, question 3, if they're a yes on question 3, and when you ask question 4, You know, why stay? What are your reasons for staying? If they have no reasons for staying, they have thoughts of leaving and zero reasons for staying. Stay with them and dial 911. That's when you need an intervention specialist. They might hate you for it. And you might save their life.

Right.

So out of all of the— just give— I'm going to give parents a heads up here. Out of all of the thousands of talks that save lives that have been done by the hundreds of advocates that we've trained, zero have ever hit that spectrum of Thoughts of leaving, zero reasons for staying. It doesn't happen. Parents, relax. You really can't screw this up. And here's why. Because if they lie, which they will, if somebody's masking depression, they're masking suicidal thinking, which teens are good at masking. So are adults, by the way. The reaction they're going to give you, even if they give give you a, yes, I've had thoughts of leaving, when you get to reasons for staying, they're gonna lie. They're gonna make something up. And guess what? It doesn't matter. Their ears are hearing their mouth give reasons for staying, so their brain is still building out the file folder labeled reasons for staying, and they are still building a buffer between them and an edge, even though it's an edge they know they're near and they don't want you to know.

Right.

So you really can't screw this up.

I'm so glad you said that because I'm sure there are many people listening who are thinking, what if I do screw this up? What if I do say the wrong thing? So thank you for saying that and letting us all know that this is kind of mistake-proof.

I had to make it mistake-proof because the elephant that I was riding, the elephant in the room, the belief that I I had, the BS, the belief system that kept me from talking with my very suicidal daughter, is the myth that I could put the thought back into her head. Right.

And that is a huge myth that parents are very afraid of.

Yes, it's a deadly myth. It's a— it's deadly. It, it creates what I call the guilt nightmare. Because silence when it comes to suicide is not golden. It's deadly.

Yep.

So we've made it as fun as we can make it. We at the Advocates for Living program and the Suicide Prevention Society, we have a lot of fun because you cannot have two emotional states at the same time. The brain is just not wired that way. They can be kind of mixed. You can go back and forth like that myth of multitasking. You're really just switching quickly. You can switch quickly. But guess what? You won't slide from helpless to hopeless if you've got the switching going on. Right. If you've got any reasons for staying, if you have any positive input into your brain. And we have a lot of negative input into our brain. Positive psychology says you need 5 to 1 or 10 to 1, depending on who you're listening to, positives. 10 to 1 positives for every negative that you're exposed to. Most of us are not getting our positivity quotient. Whoa.

No, we are not.

And so we've attracted some amazing partners. We have partners who do everything from train with games, emotional intelligence using card games, to vision boards on steroids that are scientifically validated to improve mood and attitude for 6 to 8 hours, watching it for only 3 minutes. And it's a moving vision board. That's a very dynamic. We've been blessed. We have a lot of great partners, and so people can find out about them on the website. And we, we've jam-packed the membership thanks to our partners.

You absolutely— it is so cool. I have to tell you, everyone out there, please, please, please, if you do nothing else, go check out this website because it is— I mean, Jackie's not kidding, it is is absolutely full of so many amazing resources. And I will tell you that I saw— Jackie showed me right before we started this, the moving, the live vision board. It's so cool. And I'm going to create one for myself as soon as we get finished today, because who can't use a little positivity and visual positivity? Because it's one thing to like, You know, try to remember to, like, do positive self-talk and counteract whenever you have a negative thought. You know, all these techniques.

And it's exhausting to be that mindful.

I mean, the fact that I could be able to push a button during my workday and watch this beautiful vision board that's going to shift my mindset is the coolest thing ever. And I just love— I love the science behind it. So amazing. So yes, everyone, go, go, go. You have to go check this out.

So the link will be in the chat where they can go directly there and get a subscription, and that benefits the Teen Suicide Prevention Society.

Yep.

Or they can go to the Teen Suicide Prevention Society, and for $27 a month, they get that subscription plus all of the other benefits of membership.

Wow.

Okay. Yeah, we're out to change the world. So we're making it easy.

Walk, right? Or click, click, click, click, click.

There we go. Click your way over. Join the society. Be part of the mission to make teen suicide and all suicide a thing of the past. It's time.

It is time. And this is You have made it so easy for every single one of us to be part of this mission. This isn't just, oh, what a great story to hear. This is, oh, I can actually do something. It's not hard at all.

And there are 20 people in your life who you would desperately miss if they weren't there. All you have to do is ask them to help help you practice the guide so that you can be part of the mission to stop teen suicide, everybody says yes.

Yes, yes, it's an easy yes. It is an easy yes, and it is, as you all witnessed, less than 5 minutes. It's not a big time ask. It's not, it's not a big ask at all, and it can make a difference. So I am I'm so thrilled. And we didn't even touch on how this really relates specifically, but I think everyone listening knows we've talked so much about the relationship with just how suicidal thoughts, ideation, and attempt is all so much more prevalent in the LGBTQ community.

And I can tell you why. Wow.

Yes.

We created the Suicide Risk Factor Assessment. And what we discovered is that one of the risk factors of suicide is if there is something about you that makes you feel a little different. Yep. And there you go. And there's a— there was a whole list. And what we realized is while people were like, tell me what the risk factors are. That didn't change anything. It put the focus on what everybody else was focusing on, which is who needs intervention, right? So we actually don't recommend that people take the risk factor assessment. We just ask you to assume that we're fighting the suicide war, and it's war with two A's. We're all at risk. Just assume that everyone in your life is near an edge that they may not even be aware of because it's a subconscious plan, right? It's that kind of a struggle. So if you just assume that everybody might be at risk, have the talk with everybody you care about. Write your list of 20. Go to teen suicide prevention society.com. Get your free copy of the guide. You don't have to be a member to get the guide and the training to have the talk that saves lives. That is free and available to everybody. We are determined. We're determined to tip this tide because this epidemic started before COVID And if we don't do something, it's going to make COVID look like a walk in the park.

Yep, you are absolutely right. You are absolutely right. And I just— one more thing that I have noticed with all of this that I just want to say out loud because I'm wondering if anybody else has recognized this, is that when you ask me, have you ever thought about it?

Have you ever thought of leaving?

Every human being, like you referenced Freud, which love him or hate him, brilliant, right? Is you— if you're being honest with yourself, every single person has thought of it at some point in their life, right? So that instantly makes this very personal, very relatable. It also takes a little bit of that fear out of it. Like, I don't know how to approach this, because all of a sudden you're feeling like, well, I've been there, or— right? So then you can talk about it so much easier. I just think that was— that's such an— to me, that was like such a like, oh yeah, this is— it's a good thought.

At that moment, it becomes neutralized. We took very intentional, neutral language.

Yep.

That's why the script is designed to be read, not memorized, not customized. Read. And because you're telling people up front that you've got a guide, you need to practice. They don't care that you're reading it. They expect you to be reading it because you're practicing.

Exactly.

And you never have to master it. I still practice. The guide to stop suicide. That's all you have to do.

Wow.

I just have to say wow. And I am so delighted that you were on my show and that you were a part of all of our lives and have shared this. Just, it is such critical information. And thank you, thank you for all the work that you have done and for fighting through all of this and for figuring these things out, because this was no small task that you took on. And just, um, 2 and a half years ago— it's not like this is— you've been doing this for 15 years. 2 and a half years, everyone. Amazing.

The, the reality of why I do this is because one morning, um, and about 2 years ago, right about the time that I was working on the nonprofit status, and I was like, all right, this is too much work, I woke up and did the math. 6,000 parents every day start to live the guilt nightmare that I'd lived. 6,000 a day. So 6,000 times 365 times 23 years that I had stayed silent. That's a lot of damn ghosts. Pardon my French. That's what motivated me to get it done and to get this program program together and taught and out into the world. The Talk That Saves Lives was the beginning. It got expanded into being an advocate for living, because when you're an advocate for living, your life gets better and that positivity infects everybody around you. And we're going corporate and college because what we realize, what other people realize and say, Jackie, why don't you do this? What they realized was, what would be different about your day if you went to work knowing that every single person you worked with was an advocate for you, for your clients, for your company, if everyone was engaged in advocating for better lives, for better experiences for everyone involved? Would that change the culture of a company? And that's the question we're going to answer this year.

That's exciting.

It's exciting.

Well, to be continued. I think we have to— we have to hear how this happens. So this is so exciting. I am— I'm excited for you. I am grateful for you. And I am really, really I feel honored that I can now be part of this advocacy. So thank you for coming on here and sharing with all of us today. And just before we end, is there anything else you'd like to add?

Don't wait. Break the silence. Have the talk.

Thanks so much for being with me today. I hope that you either learned something or were able to take something away that helped you just see things in a different light, maybe gave you some inspiration for talking to your kids or talking to a friend. As a reminder, all of the links that Jackie and I talked about today will be in the show notes. So please keep an eye out for those, and if you're interested, click on through. And also, as another reminder, I will be offering some really, really cool new opportunities soon. So keep your eyes open for that as well. As always, any thoughts, questions, send them my way. If you love Just Breathe, please feel free to rate it or review it on whatever platform you listen to this on. Until next time.

Thanks so much for joining Heather Hester today. Remember to just breathe. Take a few minutes every day to calm and center yourself. Reach out anytime with ideas, questions, or feedback. Please rate and review Just Breathe on your favorite platform. Subscribe Go to Heather's website, www.chrysalismama.com, to receive her monthly newsletter and stay informed. Join the private Just Breathe Facebook community to chat with other parents and allies, and share with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone.