Understanding Teen Suicide & Mental Health: What Every Parent and Ally Must Know

Welcome to More Human, More Kind, the podcast helping parents of LGBTQ+ kids move from fear to fierce allyship and feel less alone and more informed so you can protect what matters, raise brave kids, and spark collective change. I'm Heather Hester. Let's get started. As you have likely seen either on social media or via an email or two, September is Suicide Prevention Awareness Month. Over the past few years, I've had the opportunity to interview a number of different people on the topic who have shared stories, tips, and very actionable strategies. I've taken powerful segments of each conversation and put them into one episode for you today. As I was re-listening to each episode, there are a few recurring themes that I wanted to share before we even got started. The first is suicide is a preventable tragedy. The second is everyone wants to create awareness, but we're already aware. Teen suicide is a human connection problem. The third is it is so important to show our kids that we are human. The fourth is that talking about suicide with our kids is proven to reduce risk, not increase it. And the fifth is listening, really hearing what our kids are saying and telling us is so very important. We can stop suicide with our ears. Here are some really important crisis numbers for you to have on hand. 988 is the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. And The Trevor Project for LGBTQ Youth has a phone line that is 866-488-7396, or you can text the word START to 678678. I will link the full episodes in the show notes. I hope this is really, really helpful. This is very important information, and we will explore it much more deeply in the next episode. I'm honored to have Jay Reed with me today on Just Breathe. Jay is an accomplished and multi-talented businessman and devoted husband and father of four. 2 years ago in March, his life was turned upside down when he lost his youngest son to suicide. Shocked and devastated, Jay wondered how they had missed the signs. In working through his intense grief, Jay decided to take action. His TEDx talk and documentary are raw and truly extraordinary. Both open viewers' eyes to the devastation that is the teen suicide epidemic and encourage all parents— actually, anyone who knows a kid— to become better educated and work toward ending this very preventable tragedy. Jay, I want you to know how grateful I am that you are here today and just really thankful that you're willing to share your story with me and with my audience. It is heart-wrenching, it is powerful, and it's really important.

I'm a guy who has what I always thought was a wonderful family life, spent a lot of time with my kids.

I—

there's never any signs anybody was struggling that I ever saw. My wife and I had a to celebrate her birthday, middle of March last— 2 years ago. And on March 21st, it was nighttime, it was 11:03 PM, and we had a text from my youngest, Ryan, who had just turned 14. And text said goodbye. There's a little more to it. He sent individual texts that to the whole family.

He—

and that night he killed himself. It was not a spontaneous thing. He had planned it, been thinking about it well over a year, made sure that Kim and I were out of town. He knew where to go where he wouldn't be found in time. I'll save you all the the pain of trying to get home and get to the hospital. And but essentially, that was on the 21st of March. On the 26th of March, we took him off life support. I talked about this all the time. I speak different places, and you think it would get easier to say.

No, it doesn't.

It's always this first couple of minutes. Sorry.

Don't apologize, please. Admire your strength in being able to share this because there are not words. Heartbreaking, heart-wrenching, gut-wrenching. Just thinking about what you know, what you went through, what your wife went through, what your children, other children went through, and what your baby boy went through. And I thought about this a lot since I first watched your TEDx talk and thinking, oh my goodness, we think 14 is so young and they're not aware of all of the things they really are aware of.

I didn't understand, and my mission has become to help parents understand what I missed. So I'm a guy who takes action. So I did what every other person would want to do is you start a website, right?

Absolutely.

So I said, what I want Ryan to do, I said, I want, I would really like to have, yeah, chose, chose life.

You talk about having a new approach to mental health and specifically suicide prevention and young people and teenagers. Can you talk some, a little bit about that?

As I looked at this, and I'm not a doctor, I'm not a professional in this space, I'm just a guy who lost his kid, but I spent a lot of time looking at this and trying to understand how we got here. So the documentary is really all about me trying to share with parents what happened and what I missed. And we go and we interview kids that have attempted, we talk to parents and we talk to professionals, and there's a picture that emerges of a world we live in now that's not the world we used to live in. And it really, it was meant to give you something that you could watch and learn and hopefully go home and make some changes in the relationships you have with your kids and your friends. And your loved ones. Everybody wants to raise awareness for teen suicide, but everybody's aware. Everybody is aware that it exists. Your kids are aware of it, but it keeps going up every year. It's the number 2 killer of our kids. In 2017, it was 5,000 kids. 2018, it was 5,700 kids. 2019 stats are not out yet, but early words say they'll be higher. It's getting worse and worse. And when I grew up— I'm 53 years of age— 40 years ago when I was 13 years of age, I didn't— this didn't exist to the same levels it does today. So how did we get here? We created it. It's a man-made problem. We are not as connected with our kids as we used to be. We're on our cell phones, they're on their cell phones, we're watching TV, and you mess around with your brother and sister, and eventually you get in trouble and your mom would kick you outside whether it's snow or not, and you figure out something to do and you play and you come back in till dinnertime. At dinner time, and then you sit at the dinner table as a family and you hear about each other's days, and you— and then you would go do something together, maybe watch a TV show together. You watch Disney, you do something completely different. Now, these days, that's not the way the world works. We are disconnected as a family. We are not connected with our kids. We're not connected with each other. And when you take a look at how we got here, that's how we got here, right? Now, there's more to it. I remember being 13, 14 years of age, and I remember— I don't remember anything going on in the world. There were wars, there were problems. I'm sure there was. I can look back in history and go, when I was that age, that's what was going on. I didn't know. The news was on at 6 o'clock till 6:30, maybe 7. My father watched it. I sure as heck didn't. I didn't read the newspaper at 13 years of age. I had no idea what was going on in the world, and I liked it that way.

Yep.

You take a look at kids now, and here we are, it's, um It's February 7th, 2020. Your kids right now at 12, 13, 14 years of age, if they have a cell phone with access to the internet, here's what they're worried about that you never had to think about. Are they gonna die because the coronavirus is gonna come over the States and kill them?

Yep, you're exactly right. My 12-year-old asks me that on a daily basis.

Like the anxiety.

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

And then if that's not gonna happen, we only have 8 years left to live on this planet because people say it's gonna die in 8 years.

Correct. My oldest was just saying that the other day, that there's some countdown app that these kids can get on that tells you this. It's craziness.

So here I'm a 13-year-old kid, and besides my bullies, Besides my homework, which is more than it used to be, besides the pressure to have straight A's, which we didn't have that pressure when I grew up, and then I've got to be— I'm on the baseball team, but I'm on the travel baseball team because I think I've got a chance of being a baseball legend. All the pressure of just being a kid, which is even more than it ever was, now I've got to worry if I'm going to die. If the world's going to collapse. The anxiety that kids have today is so much more than it ever was when we grew up. And that's the message I'm trying to get across to parents, is that we created this problem. Not intentionally, we didn't intentionally create it, but we created a world where everything is accessible and everybody knows everything and there's fake news and this and that out there, and we don't do a good enough job as parents. I didn't. Of having the conversation with our kids about how they really feel. And their anxiety levels are off the charts.

You're absolutely right. Until we wrap our heads around that it isn't— this world is not the world we grew up in. It is so different. And we understand the effect that all this social media, all of The— you just named every single thing. The incredible amounts of homework, the pressure to be on a sports team and to be the best, to be the best at every single thing you do. They'll come to me occasionally, I'm bored. Good, that's good. I, I— because it gives them that chance to like decompress. Put your phone away, go outside, talk with your friends. To their faces and not on their phones. You have absolutely hit the nail on the head with connecting and connecting with our kids and not being afraid to connect. And I think that's another— what are your thoughts on that?

I think that first of all, we— I never recognized, I think most parents don't recognize all the things we're just talking about right now. The differences. They haven't— we haven't made the connection in all the differences.

Absolutely.

Now we're like going, what do we do about it? It's easy when I go check in on my kid and they say, oh, I'm fine. You go, okay, you're fine, because guess what? I'm not. So thank you.

Work myself, right?

Exactly right.

So the first thing you have to realize is when a kid says I'm fine They're not fine. There's a wide range of words they can choose. I'm great. I'm good. I'm awesome. I'm sad. I'm mad. I'm upset. Fine is right in the middle, which means no, you're not.

Absolutely correct.

And it's inconvenient being a parent because you're like, oh crap.

Yes.

I don't have time for this. Right?

Yes, our lives are busy too, I guess, but it is the single most important thing we can do.

It is. And I obviously didn't do a very good job of it, and a lot of parents don't. And then, and just because you're not a perfect parent— because none of us are— doesn't mean you can be in my situation. I just want everybody to pay attention to it because I didn't see it coming. I didn't realize that Ryan's spending so much time in his room by himself was a sign of anything. I thought it was, that's how kids are these days. He's younger, he's like about 4. He's just that kid who isn't all that social. He's on, but he's on his computer with his friends, so I guess he's doing something, right? I didn't recognize all the signs. I didn't recognize he was grumpy. I thought, well, he's just grumpy.

He's a teenager.

He said he's fine. He must be fine. He does laugh. We had a fun night last night. We had dinner. We sat around the table. And we were that family. There's no— there are zero electronics at our dinner table. I wrote a freaking book called Dinner Conversations, which is all about the funny stories that happen on our dinner table, trying to get parents to understand they should not have their phones at the dinner table. That's how ironic this whole thing is.

And you are the guy that— it blows my mind just knowing, the more I learn about you, that this did happen in your family because You, you are connected. You were connected. You just didn't realize because these kids are very good at hiding what they don't want us to know and wanted to hide it.

Yes.

But he did that because when you think about why he did it, here I am, I'm that guy. I'm that guy who owns companies, never has a problem. My kids never saw me cry. I'm a black belt. I'm an Ironman guy. I'm— people would say I'm successful. I've written 8 books. Everything in my life goes great according to Ryan.

Everything—

what I show people in my family is that I handle all my stuff and everything gets done. Everything's great. And like, Ryan and my wife and my kids never knew the fact that I failed at a whole bunch of companies, that I've almost been bankrupt a couple of times. I never told anybody that. It happened around them. They never saw it. So I portrayed this vision to Ryan that life is wonderful and great and never has a problem and I can solve all my stuff. So what is Ryan's role model? He looks at his life and goes, my life sucks. There must be something wrong with me.

The humanness, being human.

I never showed it.

Because we weren't brought up that way either. We never knew that's what we were supposed to do. We thought as parents, what did you think? I have to be this perfect role model. I have to show my kids. That's right, exactly. And showing him and showing everyone around you that you're human is not part of that formula.

But unfortunately, then Ryan thought talking about his problems wasn't something he should do. So when you asked earlier, what should parents do? I'm like, you have to talk to your kids more than I did. And you have to— if you see something that doesn't look right, you have to ask them, have you thought about hurting yourself? And that is a hard conversation for a parent to have because in their mind they're going, I'm not going to say, have you ever thought about suicide, to my kid, right? Let me help you. The idea is in their head. Most of them have thought about it, or at least aware that it exists. And if you don't ask You may not find out. And if you do ask, there— a lot of them want to tell you. They're just like, yes, I've thought about it, what do I do?

You open that door.

And remember, this is the big thing too, because I was so guilty of this. They come to you and they want to talk. They finally open up and talk to you, and they tell you how they're just so overwhelmed and the world is tough and they— and all this stuff. And what's our natural response as parents, especially as dads? Hey, let me tell you why you should be really happy, right? Your life is perfect compared to when I grew up. You know what you're— you know what my father was like? Holy crap, you have no idea what it's like to— why are you upset about anything? Because we want to fix it, right? We want to show them that something's better, that their life is great, and we think we're doing the right thing. And what we're doing is we're driving them deeper into a hole. Because they just came to you and told you, whether it's rational to you or not, they told you they're not feeling right about life.

Trying to fix it just makes them go, "I shouldn't talk to you about this." We're all, every one of us, every parent is guilty of, because we do, we just want to make it better. We want them not to be sad, not to be scared. We want them to be happy. We want them to find their passion. We are in uncharted territory, right? Because there's a huge disconnect, and it seems very big between what we learned, what we know, and what will help us to be successful parents and help just have that connection with our kids.

And we want to believe that when you talk to someone like myself who's never experienced depression. We don't understand. So I can look— if someone's depressed, I've learned this now, it can be a sunny day and I look up and it's a sunny day, and what do they see? They see clouds. And you go, there's not a cloud in the sky. No, there's clouds in the sky. There's not a cloud in the sky. No, it's a cloudy day. You can't understand their minds, and so don't try to understand their minds. Accept the fact that they see what they see and they feel what they feel. And just hold them tight and love them. Let them talk about it.

Yep, that is spot on. They need to feel heard and they need to feel loved.

That's what they need. And that's how, honestly, my mission is saying that we should end teen suicide as opposed to raise awareness about it. And that's really how we do it. As parents, we take responsibility for the mental health of our kids, the same way as we take responsibility for the— how they feel when they have a flu or a headache.

So I now want to introduce my guest for today, who I am so excited for you to hear from. Her name is Cara McNulty. She is a DPA and and she is the president of Aetna Behavioral Health, which is part of the CVS Health Company. She is passionate about supporting and advocating for our adolescents, teens, and young adults, as well as educating people of all ages the importance of mental health wellbeing. Cara, thank you so much for being here with me today and discussing this really important topic. It's very timely as we are in the month of Suicide Prevention Awareness, and I believe that you have some really important, not only information but tips to share with us today. So I'm really excited to just jump in and learn from you and have my audience learn from you. So I would like to just get started with you telling us who you are and how you got into just being really focused on mental health and suicide prevention specifically.

Thank you, first of all, Heather, for having me. I am passionate about mental health and mental wellbeing, and it's an honor to be here. And so I am passionate about supporting children, families, and communities in addressing mental health wellbeing. So that everyone can be their best.

You are in the middle of it, getting to experience it with your own kids, which I think sometimes is— it makes everything a little bit more amplified. Do you find that?

Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. I often say that parenting— and even before I had children, my husband and I have 19 nieces and nephews. Being an aunt and uncle is the most rewarding and the most challenging work that I have done and will ever do.

What I really love that you are doing is, or what you've been doing is this study and this focus on mental health, which has really started to come in the forefront of Oh, this is important and not just important, but it's equally important to physical health, paying attention to mental health. It's not you're broken. It's not something's wrong with you. It's something that is just part of how you're made. So I'm wondering if you can talk about that because you've been studying this kind of through this wonderful emergence.

Absolutely, Heather, you're spot on. We aren't separate beings. We are our heads, we are our hearts, we are our whole self. And to separate those two out really increases stigma and bifurcates support. And for a long time, that's how we treated mental health, as if it is something separate. And you'll hear me use the term mental well-being because mental well-being is at the core of our health. It is at the absolute core. Without strong mental health well-being, it impacts your physical health, it impacts your social health, it impacts your ability to connect with others. And so your mental health well-being is at the core. And so we can't separate our heads, from our hearts, from our physical, from who we are. So that's number one. And often people say to me, oh my gosh, you have two teenagers. How can you even, isn't it so hard? Oh my gosh, the teenage years. And one of the things, Heather, that I always go to is how lucky am I to have two teenagers and to be an advocate for teens and young adults? Because they're the coolest, unique, different, fierce, often unheard group of individuals I believe we have in our communities. And helping them be their best is where we as adults have just an awesome opportunity. And so absolutely, there has been this awareness and rising of the importance for mental health and mental well-being. And now is our time as communities and adults to support these unbelievable, young, vibrant adolescents.

Right. I love that you said that. I was just having that conversation with my third, she's 16, yesterday, and she was saying, "Oh, people just, they blow us off. They don't listen to what we have to say." And I said, "That is true." I said, "But you just keep going because because your voices are so powerful. And it is a perspective that as adults we lose. Once you go through, you get into your 30s, 40s, you lose that kind of just lovely, pure way of looking at things. And they do, they have this fabulous energy and this— it is so extraordinary. And we can learn so much from them. And I think that is, to your point, such a gift.

First, we have to start with mental well-being is something we focus on every single day, and that means all of us, no matter who we are, will experience some kind of mental well-being disruption. It might be stress, it might be situational anxiety, it might be feeling as if we don't fit in. It might be substance use. It might be a serious mental illness. But everyone will experience it. And in life, we'll experience some really amazing things. And with that also comes grief and loss. So everyone will have some kind of mental health disruption in their lives. So important that we acknowledge that this is normal. This is completely normal. Number 2 is that we embrace this, that this isn't something that we shouldn't talk about. This is how do we talk about this even more? And if there's anything that's come out of the pandemic, it is the ability to listen to those adolescent and young teen voices in a magnified manner. They are telling us what they need. They are saying, "I am isolated. I feel lonely. I am scared. I don't understand." And if we listen and if we pay attention, they're telling us what they need. If you look at the data, the CDC puts out an unbelievable report called the Youth Risk Behavior Survey. And when we look at that data, nearly 10% of youth of grades 9 through 12 thought about, at least thought about, or attempted suicide once. 10%. And if you think about during the pandemic, young adults in college age, 1 in 4 contemplated hurting themselves. People are thinking about it. People are lonely. People are scared. And what we have the power to do is bring voice and sound and support and resources to this population.

Right.

We can demystify that you are on your own and you're alone because you're not.

No, no. And I think that is one of the most important pieces of this is letting them know they are not alone. And I hear you.

I see you.

I hear you. We can do something about this. There are things that can be done. And so I think that is just incredibly powerful. And I do, even though this is going to sound weird, but I think it is actually one of the weird positives that have come from this pandemic is that there has been this spotlight put on mental health and for our kids, our teenagers, our really for our entire population. Right. And I, I get very excited about that and just so happy when we have these conversations because they're so important.

It's so true. There is so many positives that have come and we have to think as communities, as healthcare providers, as parents, are we listening? And often I get asked, what can I do? Or as an aunt or an uncle or as a community member or a neighbor or someone who works with teens and adolescents. And maybe I can just share a couple of things.

Of course, yes.

We, we, there has been a myth that if you talk about suicide, that it encourages suicide. And we know that isn't true.

Yeah.

Talking about suicide, talking about openly about struggles and listening to what people are saying and asking people, I hear you struggling and I hear you saying that some things that concern me. Are you thinking about hurting yourself? Are you thinking about harming yourself? Have you thought about suicide? Those conversations are hard and they take courage. What we know is they don't encourage suicide. What they do is they discourage, and it helps our young adults and teens feel heard. One myth I want to get right out of the way is talking about it only improves. What happens only improves. So to really debunk that We shouldn't be talking about it and asking those hard questions. It takes practice.

It does.

Absolutely takes practice.

It absolutely does. And it is hard.

It is hard. Here's the reality is we don't have to do it perfect. The words don't have to come out beautifully. We just have to, we have to say 'em. Are you okay? I hear. You sound like you're struggling. Are you thinking about harming yourself? Have you thought about harming yourself? Are you thinking about suicide? And those things become easier the more we talk about them.

Jackie is the director of the Teen Suicide Prevention Society, which is a nonprofit 501, and their mission is to make teen suicide a thing of the past. And the way that they go about this is different than anything else that we have come across. I am really excited for you to learn from her today and to just hear all of the information that she has to offer us and to share with us and really teach us about how we should have these Talks That Save Lives. That's what she calls them, and they truly are just amazing. They're not about the doom and gloom. They're not scary. And this will just really, I think, give you such a shift. So without further ado, I am so excited to share Jackie Simmons with you. So Jackie, I am so excited that you are here with us today and that we get to hear not only your your really moving story, but what you have been doing with your story and with your life and with this passion project that you have. So let's just start out with telling my audience a little bit about you and what got you into this type of work.

Oh, thank you. What got me into this type of work? What gets us on your podcast is the fact that we're parents and we've been there, done that, and survived to tell the story. And my story of how I got into doing what I'm doing now as the director of the Teen Suicide Prevention Society is Not even my story. It's my daughter Stephanie's story. At the age of 37, delivering a 7-minute message that matters in the front of a room, her first public speaking. She had been part of a group that I'd been coaching to deliver these 7-minute talks, and she was the first one speaking that day. Um, she was in a state. She was both nervous and excited, that state you get into right before you to give a talk?

Yes.

Oh my God, Heather, everything worked that day. The videographer was set, the slides worked, the microphones worked, the audience took their seats. I'm super proud of my daughter. Oh my God, she looked amazing in her dark blouse and flowery skirt, and her hair was all pulled up in combs. She was first up on the speaker's roster. The lights dimmed, And I welcomed her to the front of the stage. Everyone help me welcome Stephanie Ashton. She confidently walked up and shook my hand. And I went to the back of the room and she said, "3,000 teenagers will attempt to take their own lives today in the United States." And I went, "Huh?" Thank God I was in the back of the room and nobody could see my expression. I didn't know the number was that large. I had no clue. And Heather, I did not know that suicide was her topic.

Oh my goodness.

Oh.

She continued with, "When I was 14—" after a bad day of shopping. I stood in my bathroom. The pain of not fitting into any clothes was just more proof that I didn't fit in anywhere. Ah. And that pain was more than I could bear. So I took a razor and cut into my left eye, trying to stop the pain and end my life. In the back of the room, I could feel the blood drain from my face, because while I had lived through that with her for over 23 years, we hadn't really talked about it. Have you ever been hijacked by a bad memory? Oh yes. Only my 30 years of stress management training kept me from just crawling into a corner and bawling my eyes out. Stephanie continued her talk with, "It wasn't my only attempt. There were others." But outside of getting professional help, I've never really talked about it. Not even with Mom. Mom and I talked around it. It was too awkward, too painful, easy to avoid. We had the other talks. We had the talk about sex. And Mom and I had the talk about drugs. And we had the talk about alcohol. 'And then I went to college on a dry campus.' And the next thing she said was, 'But we didn't talk about suicide. And I still struggle with suicidal thoughts.' In the back of the room, I went from pale to bone cold as I realized the struggles that my child had faced alone because I didn't have the courage to talk about suicide. She finished her talk with, "On my suicide avoidant journey, I've learned tons of coping skills, and now I want to teach those skills to teens before they need them." Yes, before they need them. Oh my God, there was not a dry eye in the room, including mine. And in the back of the room, I was frozen, absolutely torn between pride for her bravery and guilt and shame for my cowardice. And then an interesting thing happened in my brain, Heather Hester. I realized 3,000 teens attempting to take their own lives every day. Mean that every day 6,000 parents start to live the guilt nightmare that I've lived. And every day over 20,000 grandparents, aunts, uncles, brothers, and sisters start to live that nightmare. And every day hundreds of thousands of classmates, teachers, boyfriends, girlfriends start to live the guilt nightmare, all probably just as blindsided by it as I had been. What if Stephanie was right? What if the key to stopping teen suicide was as simple as having the talk about suicide? Before you think it's needed, before your child starts to struggle with suicidal thoughts. Oh my God, the missing link, something so simple and obvious that professionals have tripped over it. After that event, Stephanie and I decided to work together. Who knew that was possible? Along with her two sisters, we founded the Teen Suicide Prevention Society and started figuring out how to help people have the talk. So we call it the talk that saves lives. And that's the mission that we're on now is to make sure that everyone knows not only that the talk is needed, but how to have it in a way that doesn't make your teen's eyes roll back in their head. It's— I don't know about you, but have you ever tried to have the talk about one of those topics with a kid?

Oh, all of the above.

How does a parent approach this? Because it is scary.

Oh, I'm so glad you asked. Actually, I have a great idea because what we did was we created a guide, an absolute— let's give you the rails that you can ride on to have this talk, and we created a really unique way to get it started. But instead of talking about it, would it be okay if we just role-play it and we demonstrate it? Sure, sure. Cool. Okay, so here's the invitation to the talk. Okay. Hey Heather, I'm part of the mission to make teen suicide a thing of the past. They gave me a guide and I need to practice it. Would you have a few minutes to help me practice my guide? I would be delighted to. Awesome. It's only 4 questions. Are you ready? Yes. All right. Question 1: Heather Hester, have you heard about the rise in teen suicides?

I haven't.

Will you tell me about it? Thank you.

In a minute. Okay. Question 2: Heather, do you have a story? Do you have a friend who's tried or died?

Yes, I do have a story.

Several. Thank you. Question 3: Heather Hester, have you ever thought of leaving that way? Yes, I have. Thank you. Question 4: Heather Hester, why stay? What are your reasons for staying?

So many. My biggest reasons: my husband and my kids.

What else?

This beautiful life. There's just too much beauty and too much that I am passionate and curious about.

Another way to look at it, Heather, what's so good about your life that you want more of it?

Oh my goodness. I think I'm making this harder than it's supposed to be.

Being here, just that it's a gift.

And one of the fun things about this, Heather. So thank you. Yay! So that's the talk. It is just that simple on the outside. Anyone can do it. We've wrapped a full training program around it and it's all available for free on our website. So what happened in your brain is something that— are you familiar with neuroplasticity, the neuroscience that's out now? What's happened in the last decade or so is fascinating with how the brain really works.

It is. It's extraordinary. Yes. I'd like to learn how this— how these things correlate.

All right, here we go. You have had a neural network that had emotional energy around the topic of suicide. Okay, so the first 3 questions are closed-ended questions. All of the coaches I've ever trained freak out when they first first read the guide because it's a closed-ended question. I'm like, yes, and you will keep it this way, right? Yeah, these are verbatim questions. You— everybody promises to actually read the guide, and now you see why. Because when I stopped reading the guide, I flubbed the question, right? You're activating all of that energy, all of the memories, all of that emotion. And then in a second, the minute your brain starts looking for reasons for staying All of that energy gets, whoom, and pushed over into a brand new neural network that starts being built out. It's like a new file folder in the filing cabinet in your mind, and it's labeled Reasons for Staying. So now your reticular activating system, this is the filter in your brain that allows in less than 10% of what you're exposed to, because otherwise we'd go crazy. Crazy, right? What it allows in is the percentage that is most closely aligned with where your thinking is, what you believe, what you think about habitually. So now you've got this new thought, this new file folder labeled Reasons for Staying. So if a random thought of leaving, which is normal according to Sigmund Freud— suicidal thoughts are normal, they're part of our, the natural negative bias and problem-solving mechanism of our brain. Worst case scenario. So they're natural, they're normal. Now, one of those thoughts of leaving comes in, it's got to bump up against this file folder of reasons for staying. So you're less likely to get hooked by it and into a negative echo chamber. And all that happened in that very short time.

Wow. Less than 5 minutes.

Less than 5 minutes. You took on a layer of emotional Teflon. Now, here's something freaky. You ready? Yes. So did everyone listening. Really? Because of something called mirror neurons in the mind, in the brain. When you started looking— when I started asking you the questions, everybody listening, their brains started answering the questions. Because we can't help but answer a question. It's how our brains are wired.

Yeah.

So questions are very powerful. So everyone listening got this journey, and as soon as you went into your reasons for staying, their brains went into theirs, and they started comparing, contrasting, adding to the reasons for staying folder in their own mind. Now they have your reasons for staying, and their brain was like, yeah, that's me. No, that's not me. I've got this one. She didn't say that one. I wonder what— yeah. And so this chatter is going on in their heads, activating this new neural pathway, filling the file folder labeled reasons for staying.

That's amazing. That is so cool. And I love science. That is the coolest science that I've heard in a while. I am absolutely I am thrilled to introduce the guest that I have for today. And this is just a really big treat for us because Kevin Wong is from The Trevor Project, which you all know I love and we talk about a lot. And so I'm thrilled to have him here today. Kevin is the Vice President of Communications for The Trevor Project. The Trevor Project is the world's largest a suicide prevention and mental health organization for LGBTQ young people. He oversees the organization's communication strategy, including media relations, celebrity engagement, internal and executive communications, speaking engagements and awards, crisis communications, and more. So Kevin, thank you. Thank you so much for being here. I am delighted and honored and just thank you.

Thank you so much for having me.

I'm grateful that you had some time today to talk because 12 months a year, 365 days a year, The Trevor Project is amazing and you all are doing really amazing things. But I thought this would be a particularly good time of year to talk with you since September is Suicide Prevention Awareness Month. So to that end, I thought it would be really awesome if you, in your words, could tell us who The Trevor Project is.

So National Suicide Prevention Awareness Month, you may have seen some of these stats or heard these stats before, but the CDC tells us that suicide is the second leading cause of death among young people. The CDC also tells us that out of— that's already a pretty dark statistic, but out of that, LGBTQ young people are more than 4 times more likely to attempt suicide than their peers. Our own research shows us that 45% of LGBTQ youth seriously considered attempting suicide in the past year. And it's a little darker for trans young people. Nearly 1 in 5 trans and non-binary youth attempted suicide. So these are pretty stark stats. The Trevor Project exists for LGBTQ young people to find the support that they need. You already said it up top, we're the world's largest suicide prevention and mental health organization for LGBTQ young people, but let me lay out our program so you can know what that means in practicality. So we run 24/7 free and confidential crisis services for LGBTQ youth. So that's our Lifeline chat and text. You can reach a highly trained counselor. You can talk with them about Anything from, "Hey, I had a really tough day at school today," or, "I'm just having a tough breakup. I need to talk through it," all the way to, "Hey, I'm imminently thinking about killing myself." All of those things fit within whatever a young person thinks a crisis might be to them, right? Emotions are specific to different people. So that's our crisis services and crisis intervention. We also have suicide prevention programs that we call our key program areas, and they help us prevent suicide. We help— we have these programs to help prevent young people from being in a moment of crisis in the first place. So that's research. We just talked through some of that education. So making sure that youth-facing adults who interact with young people, all the different companies that we work with, different partners and peer organizations, they're educated on suicide risk, working with LGBTQ young people and LGBTQ competencies, etc. So research, education, advocacy, making sure that we're fighting and protecting young people federally, statewide, and in different municipalities, and peer support. That's our last key program area. Peer support, we have a platform called Trevor Space. That's our safe space social networking site where young people can find peer support. So that might look like a trans young person in Kansas who says, They may post, "Hey, I'm having this kind of experience with my parents. Anyone else out there who can help me?" And maybe somebody in Paris answers and they say, "I'm having this exact same challenge. Here's what I did." And they can help each other through that. Peer support is almost a different type of protective factor versus a risk factor. A protective factor where you can see how somebody else might have played out a certain situation. Crisis services, research, education, advocacy, and peer support.

That's incredible. That is really— the one thing that, of course, that I use the most is the research, which you always have new and just you're on the cutting edge of research when it comes to understanding what is going on in the LGBTQ community. And I love that you've also then added on, you can talk a little bit about doing the advocacy piece with, you know, stepping into this is what's going on in different states and this is what's going on in the country and this is what's going on in the world and how do we, what can we do about that? And that is a really, obviously it's becoming more and more of an important piece right now. And I would like to talk about that, but really quickly, I just want to touch on the peer support because that is something that I don't think a lot of people realize is available. And that is a question that I get asked a lot is, is there a space that, you know, my child can go to, to talk to somebody else who is trans or who is gay or who is struggling with this particular struggle, right? Whether it's something at school or something, whatever it is. So I love that there is that aside from the crisis piece, which is, those are two different things. And so really, How— what is the best way do you find to make this information known, not just to parents, but to our LGBTQ youth, to our kids?

Yeah, so you hit the nail on the head. Peer support can be very powerful, and you do not need to be at imminent risk of suicide or suicidal thoughts to sign up for Trevor Space. TrevorSpace.org is the website. So Trevor Space It's one of those things that my wish and my hope for most young people, that they knew this was available to them. It is an international program, so it already is pretty widely used. I'm trying to remember the exact usage, but I think it's something like 500K young people use this already, and that's international, right? So the really cool thing is there are interest groups within Trevor Space. So, you know, LGBTQ people, you've probably heard this before, LGBTQ people, young people especially, not a monolith, right? Just because we maybe are part of the same acronym, we're part of the same gay community, lesbian community, bi community, trans community, etc., we are not a monolith. So the really cool thing about Trevor Space is that there are different interest groups. So regardless of how you identify or regardless of your sexual orientation or gender identity, you can find people who maybe share some of those same identities but also care about the same things, who maybe have the same interests as you. So that could look like I'm really into art or art, the arts. And you join a group where you're talking about those things among other questions that you may have. And that's totally fine. It's all mixed in. So another could be for sports or athletes. Another could be hobby-based or interest-based. And some of those are, we suggest them because we understand that there are commonalities in certain arenas and others, young people are empowered and they ask for those things. And so our moderators work with young people to make sure that they have spaces to have those conversations where they feel comfortable. But the safe space aspect is definitely where we want to make sure young people are thriving because, you know, you might feel comfortable asking this, certain questions to folks on Trevor Space because they share a unique identity or maybe they share unique interests and maybe you're less comfortable asking a school counselor or maybe you're less comfortable asking a parent. So having that as a venue for outreach is a really important one.

Absolutely. Now, you mentioned moderators on there. Is that something that you, that there are people on there who are watching the conversations to make sure that it does remain a safe space, or how does that work in there?

Yes, so we have moderators and they're constantly taking a look at the things that are posted, but at the same time, making sure that they're fostering positive community, making sure that they have the resources they need. And you're also talking about young people who may be at risk or may be experiencing mental health challenges. So maybe they also see something that's flagged or they flag it themselves and they make sure they get the resources they need. That's really great.

Now, what if— another question that comes up, and again, it's not necessarily crisis-related, but knowing that there is this safe space, not many kids really want to talk to their parents or another adult, so to speak, like a school counselor, about, about their sexual orientation, about questions they may have about sex, or even like clothing or, you know, how to dress and I'm feeling this way. Is that a space where they could ask these type of questions or is this, is this really strictly peer-type interaction? It's, I found myself thinking, so I've been there.

I found myself thinking about my own experiences when you ask that question. What I would encourage young people to do is, yes, definitely go to the folks you feel comfortable asking certain questions to, but at the same time, remember that you can, check out thetrevorproject.org/resources, and there are plenty of things like the Coming Out Handbook, for instance, or how to support trans and non-binary young people. Those things can help you. You might not identify with those things, but you can learn a lot about certain identities, including ways to explore, for instance, your gender identity. That might look like a social transition and what that means, right? So hair, clothing, name change, etc., before making any other decisions. Or the Coming Out Handbook, for instance, that can help you think through what coming out might look like for you. Never prescriptive, right? Same with when you call our 24/7 crisis services. We will never be the masters of your experience, but we can say, "How do we keep you safe? How do we help you ask certain questions or reflect on what your experience could be in your own situation?" And those things can be really helpful before before any young person takes any steps. Okay, that's really helpful.

And I think that a good distinction just so kids and parents alike know where to go, what they can ask, or I— it's just such a valuable resource that I wanna make sure that everyone knows how to use it and really knows the depth of what's available. Thank you, thank you. So circling back, just a little, I wanted to back up to the advocacy work that you are doing because That is really important. It's always been important, but I think it's particularly important right now, given some of the bills that are in line to be looked at, voted on, et cetera, et cetera. And so I'm wondering if you could just talk a little bit about what The Trevor Project is doing as far as that goes.

So for the listeners who might not know, the last couple of years have been really tough for LGBTQ young people and the policies that impact them. So that's not just federal, that's federal, state, local, municipal. Out of all the anti-LGBTQ bills that were filed last year, I think it ended up being around 300 or more than 300 in '22, 2022 alone, many of them target trans and non-binary young people. And those are generally of two flavors. Gender-affirming care restriction, and ability— restricting trans folks' ability to play sports that align with their— on teams that align with their gender identity. We do media interviews to spread our research. We make sure that folks who are setting policy, we have those meetings with them to say, "This is what you were setting policy around. Here's the actual research. Please do your due diligence and make decisions based off of evidence-based research." We will also work with different coalitions, large swaths of organizations to submit letters of support or opposition. We submit amicus briefs. This is a long list you're getting, Heather, but this is all really good work that we do. All of these things help contribute.

That is, that's exactly what I wanted to know. And that's what I think everybody wants to know, like what is being done? Because we, I know that you are, that you're working out there, that you're doing all of this work. And I think too, as people who are listening, as people who are parents or whatever, whatever capacity. What is it that we can do to help, right? We know that you're doing all of this great work and there are other, other organizations that are doing this really important work, but we see all this stuff, right? Day in and day out on the news, we read it online or whatever. And we think, oh my gosh, what can be done or what is being done? So I appreciate you sharing all the details because people want to know. And it's nice to hear positive news.

Yeah. So what you just said, seeing everything in the news, another stat that we have, a little bit of a downer, but the majority of young people, LGBTQ young people, say that recent politics in the news negatively impacts their mental health. And I know that's— I'm an adult, that's definitely true for some of us too. And for LGBTQ young people, to have your identities, your lives debated on a world stage, a national stage, political stage, whatever it is. Maybe you even feel like your identities are being used as political pawns. That can really hurt. And in terms of what we can do, what y'all can do, your listeners, supporting The Trevor Project is one thing, but if you also want to be one of those folks that we call up in a time of need or text in a time of need, check out thetrevorproject.org/advocacy. Sign up for our phone-to-action list, and when there is an action to be taken in your state, we will definitely hit you up.

Awesome. That is exactly what I wanted to know. I'm wondering specifically when it comes to mental health with your LGBTQ child, what are the things that parents need to look for or be aware of? Because I know sometimes as a parent you can get lost in your process, right? Or lost in where you are or how you're seeing things and what you may be seeing as like a behavioral issue or may be something totally different, right? So I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about things that parents should look for and be aware of.

Yeah, so first I'm going to share a personal anecdote. When I came out to my parents— I won't tell you the exact scenario— but when I came out to my parents, a friend to me said, remember, at the time I was 18 to them. I came out when I was 16 to friends, but 18 to them. Remember, you've had 18 years to think about this, maybe less if you realized a little later, but you've had many years to think about this. They are finding out now. They are knowing now. So they have less time to understand and less time to educate themselves. That— this is not for everyone, but this is my specific example. Sometimes it does take a little bit of education. I don't want What I don't want is for all LGBTQ young people to have to put that burden on themselves. But remember, some parents may have to do a little self-educating or maybe asking some questions where they just need to learn a little bit more to get to a place of understanding and acceptance. Acceptance is where I want to end up. So another part of our research shows that acceptance from just one, at least one adult, can decrease an LGBTQ young person's risk for suicide attempt by 40%. So I'll say that one more time: 40%. That is huge by public health standards. Being that one accepting and supportive adult can seriously change the trajectory of a young person's life. And that does not mean you have to be a clinician, a mental health expert. You don't even have to know all the things there are to know about LGBTQ competencies. You just have to accept and support the young person in your life. That is very powerful. Now, if we want to get a little more technical, I'm happy to share an acronym that helps folks maybe recognize some of the things that they could do in a moment of crisis for a young person, and that acronym is CARE, C-A-R-E. So that stands for connect, ask, respond, and empower. So C, connect. If you notice any warning signs of suicide from someone, reach out to them, and that could be That could look like exorbitant use of substances or alcohol. That could look like a really big jump in irritability. That could look like impulsiveness. That can also, you know, one of the reasons why our crisis services exists is to ask straight up. That's actually the second letter of the acronym. A is ask, to ask straight up if you were thinking about killing yourself or if you're thinking about suicide. So ask, ask directly. Are you thinking about killing yourself? It is definitely challenging, especially around the times, around these times where mental health discussions have been stigmatized or it's tough to talk about suicide or mental health sometimes, especially if it's so personal. But talking about suicide is proven to reduce risk. So ask. And then the third letter, R, stands for respond. If that young person opens up to you about their suicidal ideation or their thoughts about suicide, Honor that. Trust that— honor that trust by responding with compassion, empathy. Make sure that they know that you are there for them. And E stands for Empower. So talking openly, great first step, but you can also empower them with the information and support they need to improve their situation. So that can look like talking to them about resources on The Trevor Project's website. That can look like calling, chatting, or texting a counselor. That can also look like going to a school counselor or finding clinical support in maybe a local therapist, et cetera. Some things will be unique decisions to someone's unique situation, but the general framework of care really helps find what's best for that young person.

September is National Suicide Prevention Month. And I know we've talked a lot about numbers and statistics and facts and real life stories. According to the Trevor Project, 41% of LGBTQ young people considered suicide just in the past year. And we know that number has gone up from the 2022 national survey that they did. We know We understand why the numbers are the way that they are. And I think that this is a really vitally important distinction to make and to make sure that everybody really understands that LGBTQ youth are not prone to suicide risk because of their sexual orientation or their gender identity. They are prone to greater suicide risk, greater suicide ideation, greater self-harm, greater mental health struggles because of the ways that they are misunderstood, mistreated, and the negative messaging that they receive and have received perhaps their entire lives. So this is a topic that is very near and dear to me. I think it is something that is so important that we talk about, that we learn about, that we learn how to talk about with our kids. And that is exactly what today's guest is going to help us do. I am absolutely so delighted to have Anne Moss Rogers on the show today. She is a mental health and suicide education expert, a professional speaker, trainer, and consultant. She talks about this subject because after her 20-year-old son Charles died by suicide in 2015, she chronicled her family's tragedy in her blog, which is called Emotionally Naked. She is the author of an award-winning memoir called Diary of a Broken Mind and the bestseller Emotionally Naked: A Teacher's Guide to Preventing Suicide and Recognizing Students at Risk with her co-writer, Dr. Kimberly O'Brien. She has been a TEDx speaker, was featured in the New York Times, Variety magazine, and was the first non-clinician invited to speak on youth suicide at the National Institute of Mental Health. So I am grateful that you've taken time out of your schedule and are here to share with us today.

Thank you so much. Thank you for having the guts to have not only one but several podcasts on suicide prevention, particularly for this group, which is so vital to saving lives.

Oh my goodness. Yes. The more and more that we learn, the more and more we realize that is the case. And unfortunately right now, particularly the case. So This work is so very important and this conversation is very important. I'd like to start, maybe not so much at the beginning, but just a little background on who you are and why you are doing what you are doing in the world.

So I started out my professional career in advertising and marketing. And as I raised my children, I was freelancing as a copywriter, basically doing advertising and marketing and digital marketing starting in 1995, that early. And then I owned a digital marketing firm and my son was struggling as I was owning this firm and I was trying to juggle my professional life with what was going on in my family. So around his sophomore year, he gets chosen to be on homecoming court because he's the funniest, most popular kid in school. This is pretty rare for a sophomore. Yeah. My family. Thought, wow, they really got it made. And what they didn't know is how much we were struggling with my younger son's mental health and how much we were struggling with his substance misuse, which had really started to escalate and really escalated after that proud mama moment, as I like to say. And I didn't know why. He was doing drugs and alcohol, and later from reading his rap music, I would find out it was because he was numbing thoughts of suicide. And to him, he thought, isn't it a lot better that I'm doing drugs and alcohol instead of killing myself? He's a teenager. He's not looking ahead to see the problems that could lead to. He's just thinking in the moment. And what happens when they do that is they are robbed of the ability to develop healthy coping strategies. Ends up being, we're going to see a counselor because I don't know what to do. And I don't know what's what. I don't know what he's struggling with. And nobody offers to do a psychological evaluation. We're not getting a lot of help. From the school. I had some advocates, but not as many as I really needed. And I'm sure members of your audience will certainly understand that. He ends up— the counselor ends up recommending that we kidnap our son out of his bed and have him sent to wilderness program. And then from there, we did get a psychological evaluation. And so that was the good part. And he was diagnosed with major depression for the first time, which I found shocking. Funniest, most popular kid in school. He seemed to relish in love life and a constant revolving door of friends. And it was really hard to understand, but I accepted it. And then he was diagnosed with ADHD combined type, anxiety, and cannabis dependence because he had started using marijuana to be able to sleep and he said it was natural and blah, blah, blah. But I want everyone to know that marijuana is not harmless. It triggers psychosis and schizophrenia and it definitely It wasn't Charles's destination drug. He would end up becoming addicted to heroin eventually, but he didn't end up becoming addicted to it until he went to therapeutic boarding school. And it wasn't until he returned in 2014, which was the height of the heroin epidemic. He got caught up in that and he would eventually confess. He would do all the things, the detox. The rehab, and he would go to recovery house, and he would relapse within 24 hours. It was their protocol to take him back to detox. All he had to do was 3 days and he could come back to recovery house. But he saw a friend there and they walked out together, and for 2 weeks I don't know where he is. Is he under a bridge? Is he staying with friends? And we get the occasional text, but not much other communication than that. Here's the thing. I also didn't call him a lot. And I still kind of wonder why I didn't. And I think it was fear or I need to do this tough love parenting thing, which is a bunch of BS. I'm going to tell you that right now. I wish I'd called him every day and said, as much as I want you to get well, I love you even if you don't. But I didn't do that. I did tell him I loved him and I did text him and I got a last phone call that I didn't know was my last phone call. And it was on June 5th, 2015. When my husband and I are sitting in the back of a police car in a parking lot, they had called us to say, "Mm-hmm, we want to meet with you." And they delivered the worst news of our lives and told us our son had been found dead. And I remember thinking, it's got to be overdose, right? He had been addicted to heroin. And when my husband said, "How did he die?" and the policeman said it was a suicide, I couldn't even breathe. I, my, my husband is having this explosion in the front seat and I'm just, I've forgotten how to breathe. Yeah. And it was like this extra twist of the knife and it was like, doesn't he know we, we love him? I just didn't understand why suicide. And it would just be a really long time before I would, I was that intent piece makes the grief process so much harder. And you feel like, how did I miss pain and hurt so monumental? And I really, I beat myself up for years over that. But then I sold my digital marketing business and I started doing this full-time. Because I wasn't finding the reward in the other things I was doing, and I was finding healing by putting my grief into action. So that's why I do what I do today.

Wow. I just need to take a moment, and I want everybody to take a moment because that And I want to honor her.

She's my baby.

The worst imaginable thing.

And I thought I took all those steps. I thought this is going to insulate me. And not only did it blow up in my face, it blew up in the absolute ugliest way possible. I couldn't even imagine a scenario so awful and a journey to healing so absolutely and utterly painful as that was.

I just, I cannot even begin to imagine. And I am just so deeply sorry. I know that there are so many of us who in, in different ways can empathize with different pieces of your story, for sure. And every parent, right? Every single parent, it is the worst imaginable thing.

But I'm here today because I know that youth who are LGBTQ+ are at higher risk. Yes. I do not want anyone to go through what I've been through, but we need to put in place and we need to be more— we need to be more aware with this group because that connection and belonging and lack of acceptance.

So going back, what are the steps that you would say, this is what to look for, this is what you need to do?

So I think we look for kids who are isolating more, especially it's natural for them to pull away from either parent at this age and to align more with their peers. But when they're pulling away from you and their peers and they're isolating alone in a room, that's a red flag. Self-deprecating remarks: "Nobody likes me. Everyone hates me. I'm so stupid." We need to start to ask more questions. Say, "What makes you say that? I'd love to know." And remember, when you ask questions, to ask with curiosity, not shame, not I'm going to teach you a lesson or I'm going to set you straight. You're listening and you want that person to feel heard, which means not offering solutions, but just asking more questions. So what we're going to look for is we're going to look for kids who are absent a lot. Maybe they're going to the school nurse a lot. That's— Charles did that. So they have backaches, headaches, they catch more stuff, they go to the doctor more, they go to the ER more. Those kids are often at risk. So if you know your school nurse by first name, it is, it can be likely that your child might be at higher risk of suicide. But it's not the only thing. It's a combination of a bunch of risk factors that kind of come together. All at once. Are they falling asleep a lot in class? That means they might be having trouble falling asleep at night. Behaving recklessly and taking chances. You've talked about drugs and alcohol, and they're popping every pill they can find because they don't care if they're gonna die. I think we really need to look out for those things and what they say. I'm so worthless. I'm such a burden. I can't do this anymore. Now, a lot of people think suicide is selfish. It's not. It is really about feeling despair and feeling like you're so worthless. If you were gone, no one would care. But I want everyone here to know that continuum or the time they're in a suicidal episode, is a limited amount of time. And 20 minutes is about average. And it goes like up and down. And at no time is anyone 100% committed to the idea of dying by suicide. So they're always ambivalent on some level. And the really intense feelings of, I want to die and I want to die now to stop this pain, those last 60 to 90 seconds within that 20-minute or so continuum. And it can be shorter and it can be longer, but that's just an example. Okay. And so I want people to know they come out of it. And if you've been hearing your child say any of this, it's time to say, I was listening to this podcast episode today, and the woman was talking about her son who died. And if a child says these phrases, then we need to ask the question, are you thinking of suicide? Because if you want to know if someone is thinking of suicide, you have to ask directly. What you will typically see on someone's face is relief because they've been wanting to tell you. And that's what people don't understand is that kids who struggle with thoughts of suicide want desperately to tell you. First thing, do not panic. Whatever you have to do, whatever you have to pull from, you've been— these parents, you guys, you've been through a lot. You know better than to panic. Take that deep breath and just start asking questions. How long have you felt this way? Tell me more about how you feel. But if we could come up with a code phrase, my toenails are blue, whatever you want. Give them that agency to come up with the funny phrase. You're not going to want me to ask that every day. But we need to agree that this, that's what this phrase means. And it's just a way of us to communicate and for you to, to bring down my anxiety about this, which I'm asking your help. So when you do that, you're saying you're important to me. I need your help for my anxiety and just your presence and your thoughtfulness or your random hugs will help make that happen. So you're making them a part of that process. You cannot fix this for them. You can be there to support them. You can be there to love them. But it's okay not to have all the answers. It's okay to say, "I don't even know what to do yet. Let's text 741741 or the Trevor text line. Let's do that together or call the Trevor hotline together and let's see what they suggest for next steps." As parents, we often want to come out as knowing it all. And I think we need to reveal our vulnerability that we don't, but we're willing to learn along with them. Absolutely.

And I think that when they realize that helps them realize our humanity, right? We're not on that pedestal of the parent, right? All of a sudden that brings us down to, oh, they're human too. And oh, they're feeling this. Right? Like their feelings are similar to my feelings and I can communicate with them, which I think such is a, it is a game changer. And as far as relationship with your child, specifically your teenager, I do love that you brought up the Trevor Project and any of these hotlines, which will all be in the show notes. For you all. I'm curious your thoughts on this. A while back, I spoke with someone who also works in this similar field who suggested that when we have these conversations with our child and we really talk about whether it's suicidal ideation or when they are in that moment, right? And thank you for breaking that down so clearly. That if you ask the question, why would you want to stay here? Why do you want to stay here? And have them start naming reasons that they want to stay here. That does something in the brain. And I'm curious your thoughts on that.

At the point where they're in ideation, They're so fixated with their tunnel vision. You can ask that. It's okay to ask that, but understand that they may not be able to formulate an answer. Most likely it's going to be worthless. There, there are no reasons to stay here because emotionally they don't have the capacity to wrap their heads around that. Sure. However, most of the time we are not in suicidal ideation. And I do something with teenagers and college kids on an index card. What are your reasons for living? And they write it down in their own handwriting. And this has, it's called the Crisis Response Plan and it's Dr. Craig Bryan. He gets credit for this and the numbers and success rates are incredible. And I think everyone should have this index card. Right. What is so crucial about it is what are the things that make life worth living? And what, along with things like family, my dog, my YouTube channel, and my fans, it might be my football, might be my dog. But you also want them to also think of a past memory to also— and just a couple of clues on that card to trigger that memory. So mine, I've got on my card Vienna because I had dinner one night in a castle in Vienna, and I was invited to this dinner, and it was through my husband's business. We had no idea and it was so lavish. It was so fabulous. We were sitting at this table, and I've never laughed so hard my whole life. And everybody kept coming up to our table, including the royalty, because we were laughing so hard, and we clearly just had the magic that night. Oh my gosh. And so that's all I have to remember, and then I'm back in a happy place. So writing down little things that trigger a memory, if you ask them to take out that card when they are suicidal, it reminds them of those things they wrote down themselves. And that is a more effective strategy because for them to come up with those reasons in ideation is pretty rare.

That makes sense. Just because you're in that crisis fight or flight.

Yep. So I want to finish the rest of what goes on that card. So you've got your reasons for living, and then you have people that you will reach out to, and those are your trusted adults. You want to write down the crisis lines you'd reach out to. With this group, it would be some of those Trevor Project. Yeah. Life on, right? So you want them to think ahead of time, what is my plan?

So I highly recommend that. I think that is an incredible tool and suggestion. Please share this episode with someone that you love, someone you know who could benefit from listening to it. I am so glad you were here today. There is a lot going on right now, and I hope this episode brought you comfort, helped you feel more informed, and empowered you to be the next ripple, whether that is through renewed connection with your child, a friend, your community, or out in the world. Reach out if you have a question you'd like for me to answer in an upcoming episode. Join others in community on my Patreon Patreon and share this podcast. Liking, rating, sharing, and reviewing all help get More Human, More Kind in front of others who need to know that they are not alone. And right now, that is no small thing. Remember to take breaks, big breaths, hug your kids, and tell someone how much you appreciate them. Until next time.