What Parents Need To Know About Gender Identity, Allyship & LGBTQ Teens

Welcome to Just Breathe Parenting Your LGBTQ Teen, the podcast transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child. My name is Heather Hester, and I am so grateful you are here. I want you to take a deep breath and know that for the time we are together, you are in the safety of the Just Breathe nest. Whether today's show is an amazing guest or me sharing stories, resources, strategies, or lessons I've learned along our journey, I want you to feel like we're just hanging out at a coffee shop having a cozy chat. Most of all, I want you to remember that that wherever you are on this journey right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone. Welcome to Just Breathe. I am so happy you are here. Welcome back if you are a regular listener and welcome, welcome if this is your very first time here. I'm so happy you are here. I am really, really excited about today's show. I have just the most interesting and cool guest. So I am delighted, delighted for you to hear. But really quick, since this is something that I have started this year and I wanna keep doing because it has been so much fun for me to do as well, is to share reviews that I have been getting and hopes that you will DM me if this is your, uh, review that I read. And, um, if you DM me, I will answer any question that you have. Um, I will do it on video. I will post it on Instagram and YouTube answering your questions. So, um, if this is you, please let me know. If you have not left a review, I would be delighted and honored for you to do so. So please take a moment on Apple Podcasts to do that. And while you're doing that, you can also make sure you are following since the updates that happened at the end of last year knocked a lot of people off of the podcast that they were following. So make sure you check that out as well. But for today, the review is from Upon a Branch is the username, and they say, inspirational, such a raw and vulnerable podcast supporting the challenges and pitfalls faced in the day-to-day lives of gender diverse teens. As a parent of a now gender diverse adult, I only wish made available such a wonderfully supportive and insightful resource during our teenager years. Thank you. Thank you so much for leaving that review. I am honored and I absolutely love this work that I do. I love this podcast. I love working with parents. I love speaking. And so it means a lot whenever I hear from people letting me know. And I think that you will especially enjoy today's guest who reached out to me a few months ago, and I'm so happy that we have finally had the opportunity to connect. And I'm just going to read their bio because it is so impressive and there is a lot here. So forgive, forgive me for not looking into the camera if you're watching this on YouTube. Sean Dees is a PhD and lecturer in UCLA's Department of Gender Studies and has spent the last 7 years studying how queer and trans people find spiritual meaning, which is so, so fascinating. The more they studied queer and trans spiritual existence, ritual, and history, the more they realized the answers they were searching for were not in the books they were reading. They were in the crackling fire under a starry sky, the utter silence of a sunrise in the mountaintops, the warmth of sun's rays on their chest. While at UCLA, they contemplated their dissertation research on how queer, trans, and non-binary Iranian Americans experience their relationship to Islam, God, faith, and spirituality. They created and led courses on trans magic, spiritual explorations of gender nonconformity, Muslim feminisms, Queer and Trans Perspectives, and Power: U.S. Empire and QTPOC Resistances. They've served on UCLA's Trans Wellness Team for 3 years, working to provide gender-affirming healthcare to trans, non-binary, and gender non-conforming students across the University of California. Through their time at the university, they learned that although They're an academic by training. Their heart is a ball of spiritual mush. Now they practice as a public speaker, spiritual guide, and inspirational soul. They hold workshops, give lectures, and hold private individual spiritual guidance sessions for clients who wish to expand their spiritual practice. So without further, further talking, I am so So honored to bring you my conversation with Shandese. Shandese, I'm so happy you are here. I am happy to have you on the show and for everyone listening to learn from your incredible wisdom and life experience. And you are just— you're doing some incredible work in the world, and you're so young. So bravo. But I am delighted to have you here. I'm so delighted that you reached out. And I think that I'd like to just start with you giving a little bit of background about who you are, how you got into this work, and we'll take it from there.

Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you. Thank you so much for having me, inviting me on. And yeah, in terms of a little background on me, I— Yeah, like I say, I was born and raised in Southern California, you know, raised in a little immigrant home, what I consider a normal immigrant home, right? And yeah, taught to be a good woman, right? Obviously that didn't work out, right? I was raised to be cis, had to, you know, follow a lot of normative gender rules. And so I mastered actually the art of repression very young and, you know, didn't have a lot of language around what was happening. Definitely didn't have, you know, safe elders telling me my expression or my experience was appropriate, right? It was actually the opposite. So a lot of confusion and a lot of self-secrecy actually as a young person, which was a lot to carry, right? It wasn't until I went to undergrad, I went to UC Berkeley, you know, I saw other people being queer and I thought, oh, maybe I could do that, you know? It's like a very, philosophical idea at the time, right? And it wasn't until actually I entered my PhD program, which I did at UCLA, I studied gender studies. Um, and you know, that was where I actually came out as trans, learned myself as trans, medically transitioned. And yeah, I think I, you know, tapped into who I want to be and created myself as that. Now I get to do this work, which is working with the trans community, primarily trans community and queer community as well, but, you know, focusing on my trans peers and you know, what it means to actually allow us to entertain joy. A lot of the work that I've done is around trans joy. I've created the Trans Joy Workshop and do a lot of work around that. For me, it's actually very spiritual consciousness, right? So I do take that spiritual wisdom and offer it to other trans people and allow them to see themselves as divine and beautiful. And it's really transformative. And we've been doing that now for almost 5 years, which is really sweet. So yeah. I'm excited to be here and to discuss.

I love that. Oh my goodness. I think that is a beautiful, beautiful story. And there's so many pieces of that, but I think the initial part of your story and then being able to go away to school and be able to see people that you were like, oh, I identify with them. And so the power of being able to see yourself in another, whether it's an actual human or in, you know, on screen, in a book, whatever. There's such power in that. And then going and actually studying this, which I think is so cool, and now teaching it. And you've added or kind of put together this element of spirituality, which I think that they, you know, they are, they do go hand in hand. And that is something that I think people are a little afraid to talk about. So I'd love to go there first.

Let's do that. Oh yeah, let's do it. That's my favorite one.

Let's do that.

That's great. Yeah. So was there a question in there or is it just—

Yeah, there wasn't really. It was more of an observation of the story, but I kind of the, let's go there first. Let's go. Let's just hit that first.

Yeah, totally. Thank you. And I will very much acknowledge that there is a serious fear of spirituality, of faith, particularly when we are talking in the queer and trans community, right? Because of the blatant, apparent exclusion of the queer and trans life, body experience from traditional monotheistic faith, right? So yeah, actually, I always share this, which is hilarious. I entered the PhD program in gender studies, I was very clear and confident that I was a queer woman of color, right? And that was the identity that I held, right? And I had no clue. I had zero awareness if you had asked me, right? Which is hilarious because You know, I obviously didn't end that way, right? I graduated with a full beard and, you know, different body, different life, right? But what's interesting, obviously I trust my God, right? Brought me there for a reason. I ended up studying, obviously now I have my PhD in gender studies, but what I did study, right? So what did I study? You know, people do get their dissertation, they can actually pretty much study whatever area they're interested in. So for me, I was looking at how do queer and trans people actually have faith, right? And for me, it was actually looking at my community. I'm Iranian, so it was the Iranian American community, looking at, you know, how does this community straddle being queer and being trans, right, on top of being Muslim, right, which is notably in this country seen as very anti-queer, right? And, you know, how are the younger generation adopting these ideas, seeing the politics? But also, for me, the real question was, How do they find God, right? Where is their God? What does God give them, right? And do they even feel like they can, right? So those are the questions that I was really interested in because I knew from jump, from very young, that the only reason that I was alive was because of God, right? So I've always had this deep intuitive connection, very clear on that myself. And yeah, I guess I was just curious what other people who had my life experience were doing with that question, right? Because I've learned everything I have through a spiritual epiphany of some sort, right? And I think for me, being trans, you know, while it's about identity and pronouns and body and all that stuff, for me, it's actually a deeply spiritual awakening, right? It's a huge, huge transformation where you realize that you haven't been allowed to live your life, where you aren't living who you are to be, right? And For me, it was a really powerful, yeah, moment where I realized, oh, like I'm actually depriving myself of my full life, right? And so what can it mean to live, right? And so it was for me hugely spiritual to kind of reach that consciousness.

Yeah. Wow. And was there a moment, you talk about it a little bit, that you discovered your own magic? Was there a moment where you were like, wow, it is It is my spirituality that allows me to be fully authentic in the world.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it is. I wouldn't say it's like, I don't have like a day and time, but I'll tell you, um, it was actually during the COVID pandemic, right at the beginning, that first summer when everyone was scared and terrified, my partner and I just gave up our lease. We left LA, we all threw it in the car and we went to the woods and it was a very wild decision, but it was a time when the entire world was essentially up in arms chaos, right? So it was like no decision was wilder than what we were already going through. So we just moved and we didn't move, we had nowhere to go. We just, you know, had a few rentals and just did a few months out in the woods, right? And for me, I, at that point, was going through a lot of transphobia. It was my early transition. So I was experiencing a lot of, a lot of ick, a lot of gunk, a lot of not niceness, we'll call it that, right? And so I was like, "I need to get out. I need to get out and I need to go back to the earth." And so, yeah, for me, the trip actually took us to Idaho. We were out in just like literally the wild of Idaho for a month, and that was where a lot of really powerful awareness came to me, right? And I think what I always tell people, especially younger people, is I learned some of the most important lessons in my life outside of the university. Away from books in the woods, far away from any classroom, right? And I think what it taught me, right, is also as a graduate student, as someone who's invested in the university, who's doing all this work, was, you know, we can't pretend like the university has it all figured out either, right? There's a lot of wisdom to be had or to be found elsewhere. And for me, it came in nonverbal ways, right, through the silence of the wild, right? And so that was really important for me. And, you know, having you know, like a month to be out there and to have nothing to do and to really sit and rest with myself and ask really different questions, right? Like to have the time to say, "Who am I?" Right? Who am I? What do I wanna do with my life? Right? What kind of love do I need? What kind of love do I wanna create? How do I wanna help other people who have suffered like me? Right? I didn't have time to ask that stuff when I was driving 2 hours in traffic, parking 2 miles away, walking to work, like figuring out how to struggle through the daily grind, right? So it was a really, important moment for me to be out. Yeah, be out of the town for sure.

Oh my goodness. Yeah. To sit in that discomfort.

Yeah.

There's a lot of discomfort there. And I like that you said that too. I like that kind of acknowledging that, like sitting through the ick, that that's— it's okay. Like those feelings are okay. I remember somebody saying to me when Connor first came out, I was actually sharing with them. It was one person that kind of was like, it's okay to let them know. And I had— it was a family member, and I said this, and they said, oh, well, he's been posting lots of homophobic stuff on social media. And at the time, I was like, interesting. But as I've learned, and now, you know, just like talking to so many different people, that is a very normal stage, right? Like, that is something that is so understandable. And And to be able to sit through that and like face it, which is what you did. And what a gift to be able to do that in that way. I mean, I think there's nothing scarier but nothing greater than having to sit in that silence and that discomfort.

Yeah, totally. And now, you know, I'm grateful, right? I always tell people, take the trip. You're going to learn a lot, a lot more about yourself than you would have elsewhere if you didn't, right? You know, what it offered me now was what I do for a living, right? Which is offer actually spiritual guidance to queer and trans people, which I don't, I don't know. I don't know if I could or would if I didn't have that time in that initial, you know, crash course and what it means to do that. Right. So, yeah.

Right. Exactly. Oh my goodness. Well, and I think I like to, you know, coming from different What is the word I'm looking for? You know, a lot of— I, I talk about Christianity because that's kind of my background, right? And you talking about Islam because that's your background. And, and I think that's so important to have these conversations because at the end of the day, right, it— well, I mean, that's a whole conversation for another day. But I think that, that is— I love having like people getting this more broad view, well-rounded view of where lots of people are coming from. It's not just in one place that we see this one thing, right? Um, so yeah, having that spiritual journey, I just think is so, so very important. And talking about it with young people, which I just love, because I feel like so many of them are like Well, there's such ugliness out there, so I don't want any of it.

Done. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the biggest— I'd say there's, there's an epidemic, and it is actually faithlessness, hopelessness, right? If people don't want to use the language of faith, it's hopelessness. The degree of apathy that I see is out of this world, right? And most people come to me and they're like, I have no hope, right? They're like, they look at me and they're like, how are you living? And I'm like, life is beautiful, right? It's like, are we living in the same world? And it's like, yeah, we are, right? So it really does come down to, you know, what is relationship with faith, right? Because if we have no faith, if we have no awareness of the divine, or we have no relationship to God, right, I found that to be actually some of the most miserable forms of existence, right? And if that is how young people are living, if that is how queer and trans people are living, thinking they can't access God, God isn't there for them, right? That's a really lonely life experience, right? And, you know, I've gotten over a lot of my, whatever, personal myths where people are gonna think all sorts of stuff as soon as you talk about spirituality. They're like, "Oh, you're one of those," or whatever. And I've had to get over a lot of that crap because it's so clear to me that this is the only way forward. This is the only way to be, right? And so, you know, now I do it face first, you know, with a happy face because it's, it's actually so clear to me that there's no, there's no other thing that I could be talking about. There's nothing else that I'm here trying to do, right? That's, this is, this is clearly where we're going to find our heart and the reason that we're here, right? Yes.

Well, and I, I liked, I love that you are actually giving people permission to find their, their divine connection, right? I think that's one of the misconceptions is that there's, you know, every religion believes in one God that looks a very specific way. So being able to kind of break away from that and be like, wait, but my God looks like this, right? My faith looks like this. And, and that's okay. And that, that takes some work, right? I mean, that takes a lot of breaking down and building back up again. And that's the work that you're doing, which is so vital.

Yeah.

Thank you. Thank you so much. I want to shift just a little bit because we were talking about this before we started, and I would love to hear your wisdom on, on this. I know that you do a lot of work with parents and elders of young people, probably older people too, who have, who are queer and trans and all on the gender, um, you know, gender non-conforming, gender non— you know, all, all of the gender. And, um, that was so not eloquent the way I said that, but, you know, I got you, I got you. But I would love to— I know that you've had some very personal experience as well as just working with others, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, and then we'll get some specific questions.

Yeah, totally. You know, I think, oh, first to just give a synopsis, what I do do is, is now work with parents and elders of trans people and non-binary people, obviously queer people as well, but primarily the trans and non-binary community, because I don't see it, right? So I've worked now with the trans community, you know, like, for instance, the young adults, trans people for 5 years, and I see them doing the work, them healing, them trying, them unlearning, and then The parents don't, the parents don't, right? I just see very vividly that they'll come back and be like, no one, my mom doesn't know it, my dad doesn't get it, my uncle is whatever, right? And so I think what I asked myself was, does my heart have the space to hold both sides of this journey, right? And it was like, hell yeah, actually, I do, right? Like, someone has to help the parents, right? Someone has to help the cis parents of trans people, right? And I just didn't see a whole lot of that. So I, you know, basically was like, can 'You do it.' And I responded, 'Yeah, and I would love to.' Right? There's nothing more beautiful to me than restoring family. I don't want to hear many more stories about how transness ruins families, right? That to me is old news, right? So for me, it's like, how do we actually allow transness to bring families closer, right? And that's what I get to do, and that's the work that I do. And yeah, I think, you know, I found it really refreshing to be able to just create a space for parents and elders and start with compassion, right? Because 9 times out of 10, if there is anything for parents that is informative, it's usually not rooted in compassion, which is so unfortunate, right? It's usually rooted in, "You're behind," right? "You don't know enough. You haven't figured it out," or "You're being a bad parent," or whatever nonsense, shame, guilt that's being thrust at parents, right, who are already doing so much to create and sustain the lives of their families, right? And so for me, I found it really important to say, what would compassionate space for a mother of a child that's coming out as trans look like, right? How can I hold that space for that person so that they can express their fears, right? Because I think most of what happens is, you know, parents do love their kids, they just have no idea what's going on. They don't understand, or they're afraid, or they think it means something, or it's catastrophic, or they think it's the end of their world, it's the end of their social community, right? And I think, you know, it's really important to have someone who knows the journey have and hold space for that particular set of fears, right? Because I think, you know, to go to those, to take those fears and go to your kid is actually what's really tragic, right? Is because the child who's also dealing with all of their own emotions are super intense, particularly at the early onset of transition, right? They can't hold, mom is afraid, mom doesn't want to tell, you know, the neighbor, you know, they don't know what's going on, right? So it's important for them to have a space that's separate from their own kid to really grapple with this. And, you know, 90% of the time I find parents that are just alone. They're just afraid. They've never heard of this. They don't know where to go. They have no— nowhere that they can think of where it's safe to talk about this, right? And obviously a lot of what I'm sharing is the work that I've done, but also very much about my own experience with my mother, right? And her watching her see me learn this, go through all this, right, has been super instructive. And I just, now that I've been through it with her, I wonder what would it look like to hold space for people like this because their love is there, right? But there's so many other things that are also happening, right? And I think if we begin with that love, there's a lot that can come of it, right? Yeah.

Oh my gosh. A thousand percent. And, and holding that space with curiosity because that's exactly what they need is that like place to be. Where they can like say all the things.

Right, right. Like, I'm scared. Like, I don't know what to do. I don't know how to tell my neighbors. Like, I don't know what's going to happen when my child cuts their hair and looks different. What am I going to say? How am I going to navigate the looks? Because half of transition is also your family holding that transition, right? And learning that and how to talk about you and how to articulate you and share that with the rest of the world. That's a lot to do without any guidance. That's actually ridiculous that we think that we can do that without any discussion or reflection.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I mean, that it's so much to hold. It is so much to hold. And so, yes, having that space, I think, is so, so important. Even just saying, hey, you can create that for yourself, right? If they cannot access you or access somebody who does this, like, it's okay for you to create that space to have all those thoughts, to say that out loud, write it down, do get it out.

Yeah.

Because then that's how you move forward.

Right. Because it's actually, most of it is guilt. Most of it is shame, right? And it's just lodging in the body. It's just, I've met so many parents that are like, well, I don't know what I'm doing. I want to help. I don't, I'm trying. And then like, but there's just so much fear. There's so much fear and shame in this work and rightfully so. We've made queerness and transness to be seen as such a shameful thing, right? Which is unfortunate, but you know, unlearning that shame as a parent in relationship to the child actually liberates both of you, right? In a way where you're like, oh, what types of nonsensical social shames have I been holding on to because the world told me I should, right? And how do I actually get more free when I allow my child to be more free, right? That's actually the larger project, right?

Yes. Oh my gosh.

Yeah.

A thousand, thousand percent. You had made a comment earlier about becoming a parent helped you connect with this even more.

Yeah.

And connect with that unconditional love even more. I wanna talk about that a little bit too, because that's a huge piece of this, um, of this puzzle.

Yeah. You know, I, I say that I never thought I could do this work. I didn't even imagine that I would do this work, right? For me, it was actually, it was holding both my journey and story with my mother, right? Doing that work with my mom as the child, right, of a parent. And then also, yeah, I think when my partner was pregnant, I started entertaining like, whoa, what would it mean, right? And then actually when the baby was born, I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah. Whoa. There's really no words there. I was just like, whoa. I have, I've known love so deeply, right? Prior to the birth of this baby. But now I'm like, whoa. You know, it's just actually having a child for me is an invitation to love more than we knew we could, which is actually so beautiful, right? Which makes me want more children, which is great. But yeah, I think it opened my eyes into particular what you're saying, right? What does it mean to love someone unconditionally, right? And I actually work with a lot of parents on this because parents love their kids and they say they love their kids and then they put a billion conditions on that love, right? It's like, but you have to look like this, but you have to dress like this. 'But you have to, you know, go get this job that I think you should have,' or whatever it is, right? And actually step back into that unconditional love, primarily probably what you felt, yeah, in the newborn in the first year, right? When it is just so pure and there's really nothing else happening is, yeah, such a reminder of like, what can my relationship with my kid be if I remain in unconditional love, right? And to remember that I'm human, I will mess up, I will absolutely positively move more towards conditions and rules, right? But what happens if we can remember and have that awareness and move back into unconditional love and be that guidance for our kids? That's—

wow.

Yeah, we'd live in a really powerful world. Yeah.

Oh my goodness. I mean, I have like chills sitting here thinking about it because I just had this like image of like untangling you know, all of the— all of the shoulds and the you need and the— the— and it's all fear, like all the fear-based things that just get programmed in even without thinking about it, right? I mean, I, I fully believe that most of these things that we're programmed with out of fear is not a conscious thought of— right, right. But it happens. And so then just untangling all of that and like And moving back and being like, okay, well, this is this, like, extraordinary human being—

Yes.

—that I had the honor of bringing into the world, right? And so, wow. The— oh, I'm a little bit speechless right now. Just the thought of, like, what that could be like, right? Yeah. Yeah. And that would take a lot of vulnerability and a lot of willingness to have— just be uncomfortable, which is kind of my biggest thing. It's OK to be uncomfortable. It's OK to be messy. It's OK to just like, right? Because that's where the connection is, is in those moments of messiness.

Yeah. Yeah. And to be able to hold ourselves in the mess, right? Yeah. It isn't always pretty. It is not always sunshine. We know this as parents. As kids, we've all lived through bad moments, days, periods, whatever it is, right? And so, you know, what for me is like really important is how can we continue to carry the question of returning to unconditional love, whether with your partner, your spouse, your kids, your whoever's in your home, right? And that's an eternal practice, right? I think some people look at me and they're like, oh, you're great, you figured it all out. And it's like, no, no, I'm grumpy as hell, right? It's like, how do we continue, right? The question is actually, how do I have an awareness that brings me back to, oh, I wanna be love, right? I wanna be love to my wife. I wanna be love to my kid. I wanna create that environment so that my child, right, actually expects that in their world and creates a world following suit, right? And so there's different ways that we relate to each other, right? Like what if we actually taught our kids to relate to each other like that as opposed to, ah, the terrible things that I hear on the news.

Yeah, right. Well, wouldn't that be— I mean, it's kind of the whole— and it sounds so simplistic, but the idea of like relating to one another, like approaching one another with curiosity. Yes. Like that instant judgment, which we're so— that's just so ingrained, right? Like we enter a room full of people and, and what is ingrained in us to do? Judge, right? Or compare. And instead, if we could walk into a room and and be curious, right? Right. Yeah. Like how just that tiny little shift and, and your mindset.

Yeah. I think an open mind is the most underrated and most powerful thing that we aren't tapping into for some reason. Right. And it's actually like, it's something I've practiced a lot in the last few years and it's led me into a life that is a thousand times more enriching, right? Because if I don't close the realm of possibility when I go somewhere new, when I meet a new person, when I, you know, I'm experiencing something, if I don't already predetermine and decide what it's gonna be or how it's gonna go or what I expect and close down like infinite possibilities, right? Right. Life's actually really, life's actually really sweet. There's a lot of other things that we're missing, right? So that openness, brings you new material, right? And I think that, yeah, it's, it's actually, it's just a more fulfilling way to relate to the world as opposed to, I already know what's gonna happen. I know how this is gonna go. I know who you are. Right? Right.

Yeah. Right. And again, I think that all circles back to fear, right? Yep. It's that fear that's like the underlier and so much, if, if not most things. Yeah. But I, you know, and I think too, It seems like a scary thing because that's— we're going to mess up. We're going to just— 100%. Like, right? We're going to fall back into old ways. That doesn't mean that you can't do it. It just means that, oh, look, you're aware enough now that you realized you did it, right? And you can do this, right? Like, you can, like, in that moment be like, oh, wait, no, I don't want to do that. I don't want to be judgy, or I don't want to be whatever, comparing myself to other people. I want to be like, oh, this, that person looks really interesting, or I, whatever it is, like just that place of curiosity. So yeah, be gentle with yourself, I guess is my point. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. Totally. Right. This is work.

It's, but it's good work.

It is. It is. And you know, in truth, it will set you free. Right. Because I think for me, what I realized when I was coming into my transness, I was, you know, also like I'm queer, I'm Iranian, I'm Muslim, I'm non-binary. From all these things, right? I was so aware, right, that the world didn't like my identities, right? Like I was carrying this fear, this pressure, this hate, this violence, whoever it was, right? So much was hitting me all the time, right? And I thought that I had to resist. I thought my whole identity, my whole life story was to just resist whatever it was that was hurting me, right? And that for me is actually, for me now I'm thinking out loud is like, that's living in that fear mindset, right? Is to compulsively be afraid of more pain and then to fight against that pain and to be in that cycle with fear and pain, right? And so to actually, you know, I, when I went to Idaho, when I had my epiphany, my awareness, right? It was like, I can't live like this. I cannot live like this all my whole life. I cannot live like this. I think it was more so an awareness of like, it's just exhausting, right? And more importantly, God did not bring me here to just fight petty idiots all the time. This is not what life is about. Right. And so I had to pull back and say, what is life about? Right. And then, you know, the question became clear, right? In any moment, in any situation, there's really a fear choice and a love choice. Right. And what does it mean to, one, have that awareness, right? And then to allow that quest to kind of navigate your life, right? And be like, I don't want to eternally live in fear. That's a choice. It's a really tough one, but it's a choice, right? And so, you know, for parents of queer or trans kids, right, thinking about how do I deal with this, right? How do I deal with this? Well, it's like I can choose fear, right? Like the number one thing that I get is, I love my kid, I don't want them to experience pain. So I'm going to tell them to not be this thing that they can clearly just not be, right? And yeah, that's the fear-based choice, right? And that's okay. And I've heard it and that's understandable, right? It's coming from love, but it's in practice, it's asking someone to shrink themselves, right? It's asking someone to not be who they are, right? And that's a really dark form of non-love, right? And so as parents, we don't want to give that to our kids, right? We want to love them, right? To go back to what we were talking about a moment ago, what it means to actually just unconditionally love your kid and let them be who they are. I'm here, I'm tasked with the job of supporting and raising this being. That's it, right? So who am I to tell them they shouldn't be who they're telling me they are, right? Like they actually know who they are better than anyone, right? And so it's actually Yeah, I think really important to create that space so that we can realize what a loving response to the kid that's coming with really perhaps challenging or shocking news. How can I love this child of mine?

Yeah. Oh my goodness, yes. And I think that's so interesting thinking of in that moment, there are so many options of how to respond and what to do with that information. And then of course, you know, for so many there's, it takes time. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Right. And that's okay. Like the time that's actually good because it makes sense.

It's normal. It's, it makes sense. Yes. I, I, I totally does.

Yeah. I wonder what you would say though to a parent who is like, I just, I, I just can't. Cause you, you kind of, you just addressed this a little bit, but I'd like to go just a little bit deeper. I love them. Like in their mind, they're saying, I love, I love my child, but I don't, I don't like that they're trans. I just can't, I don't agree with it. I read my own stuff and all the stuff I read says they're wrong, that they're, it's their choice and they're making the wrong choice, but I love them so much. Yeah. Yeah. What would you say to that parent? Yeah.

I'd say one, thank you for being here. Right. Thank you for asking that question because a lot of parents don't, right? So one that tells me the parent is preoccupied and concerned with their relationship with their child, which is actually the first step, right? That's— that is an act of love, right? And so then it— and then comes the declaration, right? The verbalization, I love my kid, right? And then there's that beautiful word, right? But, right? And it just shows up and it says but, which means something else, right? Which means actually something in contradiction to I love my kid, right? Which is actually precisely what's coming out as they say whatever it is that's coming out, Right? Which, which, you know, what I would say to that is it is fully normal and totally appropriate to be terrified of having this news enter your home, right? Yes. Right? I always share when I do my talks that when I, when I discovered that I was trans, I wept in bed for a month and I didn't move, right? It was the most depressing thing I'd ever, ever realized, right? Because I lived in a world that told me transness was synonymous with more pain, right? So it makes full and total sense, right, that a parent would likewise be terrified of this, of this news, right? Because you love your kid, and then they're actually coming to you telling you they're gonna live a life that's absolutely going to cause more pain, right? There's going to be more pain, there's going to be more, you know, let's just say conflict, right, with the world, with people, with medical world, whatever it is, right? There's going to be a lot of pressure there, right? So that makes sense, right? And, and I, I think by making that space for parents hopefully allows them to realize, oh, okay, so maybe perhaps I don't need to take out, you know, my fear of what the world's going to do to my kid and turn it into, you shouldn't be trans, that's going to make your life harder, right? Because, you know, even my mom, my mom, this was what she did. She was like, life's gonna be really hard, I don't want you to go through any more pain, right? Which I'm like, cool. But what I, what I told my mom, I'll share what I said to my mom, was For the first time in my entire life, I was 24 years old when I, you know, finally told her and came out as trans. For the first time in my life, right? So for 24 years I've been living and not been happy. For the first time I found what's gonna make me happy. That's huge. That's unreal. If my kid came to me and said, I figured out why I'm not happy, I'm going to be happy. I'm happy now. Help me. Support me. We'll figure this out, right? That's such an invitation. That's huge, right? Because we finally have a person who's been struggling for whatever reason, because of whatever messages they've seen, whatever world they find themselves in that doesn't feel safe to be themselves, right? And then finally figures it out, right? Like, actually, what a moment of celebration, right? And, you know, perhaps, you know, not everyone's there. Not everyone sees it as a moment of celebration. I sure didn't. Like I said, when I first learned it, I was crying. I was scared.

I was depressed.

It was really dark. But now I'm like, wow, it's so beautiful. It's actually a child finding more clarity in their own lives, getting closer to happiness. That— what else could I want for my kid, right?

Right. Oh, I love that. And how did your mom initially respond to that? And then I know over time it took time, but what was her kind of initial— if you don't mind me asking, if you do, totally understand. So you tell me.

Yeah, no, it's one of the most important stories that I share is the story of my mom. My mom, you know, I was raised, like I said, in a, what I consider normative immigrant household, right? We followed gender rules. There was no discussion. Men were men, women were women, and that's exactly what it was. And obviously there was this very clear notion of you were going to grow up and be a common abiding heterosexual person, right? And so it was because, you know, I, you know, this was a little while ago, right? So not necessarily very recent, but like in a world that was still very openly anti-gay, right? In a world that was very common to say things like that, right? And so my mom, you know, I think ingested and put out a lot of that ideology, right? So she was just very flatly homophobic, transphobic, right? Very, very comfortable in that, right? Didn't live in a society or community that checked that, right? Because that's what the world was like, you know, 30 years ago. So I think for me, I was raised to think that queerness and transness were gross. Here's my mom saying that, right? You know, walking around, not getting in elevators because she sees a queer person, right? Like very visible, very comfortable, you know, just like, no, these people are not natural, right? Not normal, those type of stuff. That she would say to me. And so, you know, as a kid, I was like, wait, what? Because, you know, part of me is like not even old enough to conceptualize what's happening, but it's like, I'm definitely that thing that mommy says is really bad, right? I'm definitely that thing that mommy's scared of, right? And it's like, that's a lot for a young person to hold on top of whatever else is happening for them developmentally, right? And so I, you know, was very clear that I couldn't share this with my mom, right? And that's That's also something I think for parents to chew on, right? Is how much of your relationship with your kid are you losing out on if you don't invite the full breadth of that human being into the picture? You're asking them to erase or hide a part of themselves when they come to the table, right? When they come to sit next to you, right? When they're sitting, you know, on the couch, right? They can't actually share what's happening with them because they don't feel like they can, right? And that You know, it was very clear to me that that was okay because that was the, the create— that was the created environment, right? My mom wasn't like, tell me your gay life, right? My mom was like, get A's, enter graduate school, you know, you know, marry a man, whatever, right? Succeed in the normative tropes that she had been taught, right? And I think for me what's been very humbling and powerful as I get a little older also is to be like, whoa, how can I have compassion for what my mom went through, what she was taught, right? And how she was taught certain values about bodies and gender and relationships and sexuality. Now, obviously, I've spent about a decade studying gender and sexual theory, so I've thought about it a little bit more, right? But have compassion for, you know, this was what she was taught, and this is what she chose to believe and operate on, right? And so there's a degree of compassion but also acknowledgement of, whoa, you know, also she chose this. She chose to reproduce a lot of these ideas, right? And to not move in more loving ways, like, oh, like, so what if my kid is queer, right? I can still love them. That didn't really happen, right? It didn't happen until, you know, I actually never told my mom that I was queer because I think a part of me really deep was like, I'm more than that, right? So I never was like, hey mom, I'm a lesbian. I never had that conversation because I think I knew deep down it was going to be, I'm trans. And so I kind of didn't have that conversation until I realized that I was trans. And then I had the conversation. I invited her into my home and I said, you know, I said, we need to talk. I've done that never. So my mom knew that it was serious. I invited her into my place and I asked my partner to leave. So it was just the two of us and we had the space to ourselves. And I just said, you know, I'm, I'm not a woman, right? I'm not, I'm not a woman. And her initial response was, yeah, just like breakdown, tears, fear so much, right? The fear of like, what are you going to do? I don't want you to change your body. I'm scared of that stuff. I don't know what it's going to do to you. Right. So much fear. Right. And for some reason, and I believe, you know, again, God was very much with me in that moment, I was able to hold space for my mother in that conversation, which is not normal, right? Usually when a trans kid's coming out, they are scared, they don't know what to do, they're freaking out, right? But for me, for some reason, my heart did the Grinch, it just grew, right? It grew 3 sizes right there. And I was able to say, oh my God, my mom is in so much pain, right? And I was able to hold space for her in that conversation, to like, you know, console her a little bit and say, you know, it's gonna be, it's gonna be all right. Which is actually funny when I think about it. But more importantly, right? And she was naming her fears, she was naming all of her hesitations. And, you know, she was like, I don't know what trans is. I don't know what this means. I don't know what a transgender body modification is, right? But at the end, she concluded with, but I love you. And that was it. And that was it. That was all that I needed, right? We didn't solve world hunger on that evening, right? But what we had was a commitment that a mother loves her child, right? And with that, we started. We started. With that, we started. And it took a long time. It took a lot of conversation, a lot of, yeah, just reflection. And my mom went from being, you know, just this super visible homophobe, transphobe, to a woman that was signing up for for, you know, a full-day workshop on, you know, how can parents understand medical transition and support their kids or something like that, you know? And I was like, wow, wow. There's nothing but wow that's coming out because it's like, I did not think the woman that I was raised with would ever, ever be able to hold and carry herself in that way, right? What it taught me, which is why I do this work, is Parents do love their kids. Parents do love their kids. And that's actually the only thing that I know, right? And if I know that parents love their kids, then that is possible, right? I believe that there is that inner transformation possible. And someone has to believe that. Someone has to believe in those parents, right? I know I'm not kidding. My mom was bad. Like my mom was, you know, she dragged me to the voting booth and she voted against gay marriage in front of me. Like this was bad. This was bad. This was real bad. So never in a million years did I think my mom was mom could be running around correcting people when they use the wrong pronouns, right? It's like, wow, look, look what, what can be done when we choose love and we commit to that love, right? To go back to another question, right? No, it did not happen overnight. And I don't like the narrative that like once someone tells you, you should have figured out within 48 hours. It's like, no, it took, yeah, at least a year, right? At least a year. A lot of time because the parent has to process all this stuff. Let's imagine the trans child has thought about this for, you know, 6 months, a year, maybe longer, right? Mom's hearing about this, perhaps been in such strong denial or whatever, just never thought of it, right? So it takes them a long time as well. So what does it mean to have that space, that graciousness, as you learn something that's, you know, very challenging?

Right. I think that— oh, that's so powerful that you just said that. Thank you. Because that is, I think, one of the most important things for everyone to know, right? Both people, you know, queer people coming out to their parents and their loved ones, like, they need a minute. That doesn't mean they don't love you. That doesn't mean they don't affirm you. They just need a minute because this is a shift, right? And, and for, you know, parents and loved ones to honor the fact that, you know, your loved one who's coming out to you this isn't something they just decided overnight. This is something that they have thought about for a very long time. And, and, and the courage that it takes for them to come to you and say those words, immense. So to honor that as well, right? There's a lot of honoring places that we are. Totally. Right. And it takes, you know, I think that just allowing that, you know, allowing that space, which is one of my favorite phrases too. And I always giggle when I say that. To people who are not as familiar with this, this languaging, because people like look at me funny and I'm like, okay, I have to explain what— but it's such a great— like what I, you know, the first person that said that to me a few years ago, I was like, oh, it's like the perfect way to describe this, right? Like, just like, that's what you need. Like, just kind of like imagine this container of like, okay, Yeah. So, um, thank you for sharing that. It just, I know that is gonna bring comfort to so, so many people and I really, really appreciate that very, very much. Yeah. And just, you know, wisdom and, um, and goodness, just a moment, just giving everybody a moment, right? Yeah. I have a question that's totally off subject, but I'm just curious, knowing that your PhD is in gender studies and something that has come up in questions and kind of just in general in recent times, I've had a couple of things talking about the fluidity of gender, and I'd love to know, like, to hear your thoughts on that, because I think, and I guess the kind of the background behind this is the thinking, which I'm sure you're fully aware of, is that people love a binary and people love a box to check. So there's a lot of discomfort around any kind of fluidity, any kind of spectrum of anything. But this is your area of specialty. So I'd love to know just a little of your thinking on that.

Yeah, yeah, totally. And this is a particular example coming to mind. I work with a grandmother who was— "Like, I have a non-binary grandchild. I don't know what to do. I don't understand," right? And so we had to have this conversation because, yeah, this turns out there's gonna be more and more gender-fluid people now that we live in a society that's slightly allowing people to be themselves, right? And so what does that mean? It means that people that were raised in the very rigid binary world, right, are going to have to engage with this, right? Maybe, you know, hopefully absorb it, but also engage with it, right? What does it mean to think about? And yeah, in terms the gender binary and gender fluidity, I think what's really important, right, in the way that I've come to learn it and teach it and think through it, right, is, right, we live in a social system that's obsessed with these two boxes, right? And not just because— because it serves a political function, because it's literally useful, right? It's functional to be able to say these are males and these are females, right? We've literally constructed our entire society around this. And it's worked, right? It's comfortable, it's convenient. We've raised every single person in our society to believe that this is a natural and normal way to categorize human beings, right? Which, you know, if we step out and step back for a moment, right? It's like, whoa, oh, maybe we went ahead and actually just created that. And if we created that, then we can also commit to uncreating it as, as just the same, right? And I think for for many people, the non-binary is really threatening. It's really threatening as an identity because it's confusing because it does not abide by those two categories, right? Flatly, that's a lot to understand if you're like, "There's men and there's women." I'll never forget in the beginning when I would tell people I'm getting my PhD in gender studies, there'd always be that classic dude that would say, "What do you need to study? There's men and there's women, right?" And I'd always chuckle and be like, "Yeah, for sure. Thank you for that. I didn't know." So yeah, I mean, I think, you know, as someone who now I, you know, consider myself to be non-binary, right? I think the question really is like, what is that? What does that mean? Right? And for me, I've spent a lot of time reading and writing about it because it's, it's so much more than a gender identity, right? It's actually, it's a commitment to life. I say that's a commitment to the human body in ways that don't follow the rules that the world gave us, right? It's a commitment to this person and this form of expression, whatever, you know, it is that's coming out of me. And it says, I honor how I want to express in ways that that is actually the biggest priority, right? As opposed to, I'm gonna worry about male, I'm gonna worry about female, I'm gonna worry about gender, right? Because I'm not, right? It's actually, it's a really radical honoring of oneself and whatever that looks like. And You know, I think that's— yeah, that's a lot. It's a lot to swallow from, from, you know, perhaps people that might not have really thought about it for a while, right? And I think there's a lot of myths, right? It has to look a particular way, right? It has to call itself a particular thing, or you have to use particular pronouns or all that jazz, right? And it's actually like, no, it's just someone that's committed to themselves and honoring their expression above what the category of male or the category of female is forcing on the rest of us, right? And it's actually, it's choosing freedom, right? When it comes to body and the gender, right? And, you know, I think that's, that's sweet. People that choose freedom, I'm into that. So yeah.

Oh, totally. Well, I think that's such an interesting way of looking at it, and I think is so helpful is being able to— I, I think we don't realize until we sit and think about it specifically, like the roles of gender, right? The roles of man and the roles of woman— of women, right? Like, where— so me as a woman, all the things that are just like in— that I was just programmed with, like, I— this is what I am to be and do in this world, right? And to think about like stepping outside of that and kind of leaving that over here and being like, but how do I really relate with the world, right? Like, how do I really relate with the people around me, the people that I have the honor of meeting and, you know, having as friends and my children and, right, and my partner. And so, I mean, you're again, 1,000%. I love that. Like, it is freedom. That's what what all of this is that we're talking about, really, right?

Which is freedom. Yeah. Yes. Which is actually funny because, you know, a lot of people are afraid of the trans— what they call the trans agenda, right? And it's actually— gender liberation is for all people, right? And that's actually what's, what's really unfortunate, right, is like, you know, people that aren't in the trans community aren't really invited to see that, right? But think of the— like, you know, let's, let's imagine whoever is listening, right? Think of the millions of ways that police your own gender every single day, right? I gotta, you know, shave, I gotta pluck my eyebrows, I gotta make sure I'm skinny, or I gotta make sure I got muscles, I gotta whatever it is, I gotta not cry, I gotta not feel, whatever, whatever, whatever, whatever it is. There's millions of ways, right, that we police our gender, whether you're trans or whether you're cis, right? And so the project of actually moving towards freedom, right, is like, what would the world look like if We were free. That beauty should not be limited to just trans people, right? But trans people obviously get thrown into that consciousness very quickly because of their life experience. But, you know, the same to be said for the parents of trans people, or anyone for that matter, right? Everyone deserves this consciousness so that they are at ease in their body, right? Because think of how much pain and force and pressure we're holding when we live like that, right?

Well, it's a gift. I mean, it really is a gift to every human me. Yeah, yeah. And everyone deserves it.

I believe that, right? And so if we do, then absolutely we gotta do that. We deserve that for ourselves and for each other, right? And so, you know, question I carry is, how can I absolutely not police gender for myself? Because that's a— that's a— similarly, it's an eternal dance because everywhere you look, someone's telling you to police your gender, right? But then on top of that, how can I make sure I'm not policing the gender of other people, right? And then obviously to reduce that to the nuclear family, to the home, right? To my kids, right? I don't want to release the gender of my children either, right?

Right. Oh my gosh. Oh, that is a question we could just really— yeah, couldn't we? To be continued, perhaps.

Yeah, right. Write a new— write a new book.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Oh my goodness. Okay, well, I would love to— I think this is definitely a to be continued, uh, down the road conversation on So many pieces here, but I would love for you to share how people can get in contact with you and anything else. This is your free space to talk about whatever you want.

Yeah, well, in terms of folks want to get in touch with me, reach me for the parent sessions, or if you have a trans child and you want them to take part in the Trans Joy workshop, which is, you know, I believe I mentioned this, but you know, in case I didn't, Trans Joy for me is really about about asking what does it mean to make joy the priority for trans people, right? As opposed to surviving, struggling, bare minimum, crumbs, going through life very unhappy, right? What does it mean to make joy actually the centerpiece of trans life, right? And how does that reorient how we see ourselves and what we deserve and what we're worth and what this life is about, right? It's very, very powerful work. So I do hold the Trans Joy Workshop twice a year, right? But on top of that, yeah, the parent sessions I think will be most probably relatable and necessary here for your audience. Yeah, and those are private sessions, I think, because I respect the fear and the intensity that surrounds most of it, so I only do that work one-on-one. But yeah, folks wanna get in touch, my email is actually the best way to do so, right? So it's shaundeez@ucla.edu, which I will spell here, S-H-A-W-N-D-E-E-Z shondee@ucla.edu, and that's how you can get in touch with me. Obviously, you can also find me on Instagram @drshondees where I post most of the flyers for the workshops that I hold and different events that I hold in that space as well. Yeah.

Perfect. Awesome. And I will have all of this in the show notes as well. So if you missed that, well, yeah, just take a look at the notes. This will be on— I'll put it out on social, all the socials as well, and we'll tag you so you can, you know, comment or add to anything that I put out there. And I'm just so, so grateful that we were able to have this conversation and to put all of this out in the world because this is just really powerful. And, you know, occasionally I get to have an interview where I think, oh my gosh, I have to listen to that again because there's so much.

Cool. I'm honored. Thank you.

So thank you so, so much for being here. I so appreciate it. And have a really, really great weekend.

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me.

Thank you for being here today. Thank you for listening. I hope that you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did. It was absolutely a delight, and I truly learned so much. I was not kidding when I said that I'm gonna go back and listen to this again because there are so many pieces of just wisdom that are in there. So please feel free to listen to it twice, um, or 3 times. And again, um, like I said right there at the end, if you wish to get in touch with Shaundese, their information will be in the show notes and on social media. And just also a reminder that if you wish to be part of my book launch team, for the forthcoming Parenting with Pride, which I'm so excited about, please, please reach out to me. Send me an email, which also is in my show notes, but just so you have it, it's hh@chrysalismama.com. I would love to have you as part of my launch team helping me get this book out into the world. Until next time, take care. Thanks so much for joining me today. If you enjoyed today's episode, I would be so grateful for a rating or a review. Click on the link in the show notes or go to my website, chrysalismama.com, to stay up to date on my latest resources as well as to learn how you can work with me. Please share this podcast with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone And remember to just breathe. Until next time!