Allison Gilbert and David Kessler on Loss of a Parent

And going to look for us on Facebook just to make sure we're actually there, too.

So. And I'm so glad you're here, Alison. I'm excited about the day.

I am so excited to be with you. And wow, everyone is coming in from all over. I see Canada and the uk California. This is New York City. David, what a group that you have assembled here.

Oh, wait, there's more. There's more coming. There's more coming. All right, good. I have now seen us on Facebook, so I know we exist there. So if you're on Facebook, say hello in the stream. If you're in Tender Hearts, say hello there. So nice to see everyone coming on. All right, I'll give everyone a moment. Let's see, you're obviously having a chance to look in our chat to see where people are coming from.

I love it. San Francisco, Pennsylvania, Kentucky. Hello to you guys. Shannon, see, you're such a pro at this. Allison, you're Catherine. I see Charlene. I see Nebraska, of course. And this is quite a just amazing group, David.

Well, and they're coming in. Sandra's on Facebook from New York. Lisa's here. Wonderful. Michelle's here. Lisa's on Facebook from Grand Rapids. Hi, Lisa.

Oh, and I see Ronald. Thank you. Hi, Ronald. I see you said hi, Allison. So hi right back at you.

All right.

See, Glenn is saying I'm excited about today's topic. Struggling big time. All right, Jennifer is here from Alaska. Hi, Jennifer. Glad you're all here.

I'm just going to wait just a few more minutes for everyone to come in. You might be here in Tender Hearts. I'm so glad you're here. You also might be watching in Facebook if you're in the Facebook group. This is a group that I started after the shutdown almost a year ago, and we are still here and growing strong and virtually connecting with one another. So I am so excited for this. As people are coming on, let's do as we always do, Alice. And I'm a big believer. When those we love die, we don't quit loving them. And I don't think they quit loving us. So let's take a moment of silence and just send them some love.

Oh.

Thank you so much. I.

Alison, on these moments when I do this, I. Yes, Robin, it's on Tender Hearts also, because, Robin, you'll be able to ask Allison questions directly there face to face, if you want. All right. When I do that moment of silence, I always send love to my son or my parents or a number of other people. When I have a guest like you, I send love to your loved ones. Oh, so very, very sweet to have you on here.

Thank you so much.

So I thought today we would be talking about our loved ones belongings when they no longer belong to them and belong to us and how to deal with possessions. And you know, you.

Are in this field now and I think you like me didn't go. I'm going to do books on grief for all this. It sort of came to your world. So would you share a bit about you and just for those of you you're going to be going, she looks familiar. And she looks familiar because you have seen her all over tv. She looks familiar because she's an Emmy award winning journalist and she's an amazing person who's written grief books. But before we've get into, before we get to all that you've done, I want to know who you are.

Well, I appreciate that and I'm a big fod. I'm a big friend of David, fan of David. Both Fs are so love right back at you. You're right. I got into this from my personal vantage point but propelled the work forward through my work as a writer and journalist. My mother was my first parent to pass away and she died shortly after I graduated college and before I was married and before I had kids of my own. And my father died right after but unrelated to 9 11. So 911 was on a Tuesday and my father died that Friday of cancer. And it was just an avalanche of loss. And so like everybody here, all of our experiences are of course unique, but I feel that I could just as well be a participant in this, our conversation and not just someone who I'm so humble that you asked me to join you, but I feel like I'm a part of this group and I feel grateful to be here.

Well, thank you. And I just also, you know, I have to say I find it interesting what you shared about the idea that you had a loved one die.

In the shadow of 9 11. And I can't help but think about we've had so many COVID deaths and just like when 911 happened for your father, death didn't take a holiday. During 911 other deaths still happen and in this pandemic other deaths are still happening.

Do you relate to that? Like when you must have said my father died, people must have go oh, in 9 11. And you were like, well, no, I mean what was that like having a death in the shadow of a tragedy when your obviously dad means as much to you as any loss that we could have.

I at once felt both.

Kind of solidarity and camaraderie and community with the world.

Feeling collective loss at that time. But I also felt at the same time, I don't think it was one or the other. I also felt completely distant from it as well. And that's despite being in New York City. My father was in a New York City hospital when this all unfolded as well. So for me, it was both. It was both comforting because there was just loss around us. But yet mine, of course, like everyone else's, is so personal that I felt there was that distance too. And I know that's not a easy answer or maybe a clean answer, but it's definitely my truth and it's my honest. It's my honest answer for.

Well, I always talk about grief is not a tidy thing.

So Nessie.

Yes.

Because I would imagine it could be easy for your grief to be unseen in the tragedy of that. So I'm glad you felt connected in that.

Yeah. And I'll just say, David, one more thing I guess I would add to that too, is that there was a sense of being able to tap into.

The community, the world, being more open to discussions about grief and loss and maybe for a time being more open hearted and tender towards me because there was this wide open experience where grief was kind of out in the open, like you said now during COVID 19. And so there was a way for me to access, if I wanted it and if I needed it, people who might have been more receptive to my calls for understanding or for my calls to share stories about my dad. So I definitely felt that there was a cracking open, a bit of people's willingness to be in that moment with me.

I want to. We'll be talking about all of your books and your work, but I want to really today maybe talk about this one here. Past and present. My baby Keeping memories of Loved Ones Alive. I mean, first of all, the subtitle Keeping Memories of Loved Ones Alive. How did you tell me about just that subtitle and tell me about the title and the subtitle, actually.

Well, Past and Present is of course a play on words. Right. Past, away and keeping a loved one who has passed away in the present.

I had mentioned before that my mother had died before I was married and before I had kids of my own. My father died shortly thereafter, I mentioned. And that was after I was married and had my first. And he was just 18 months old when 911 happened. So that week my son was a Todd and so after that, both of my parents were gone, and I was walking into my adulthood without them. So not having them for career advice, not having them for raising my children, advice to how to keep traditions going, advice. And so for me, what became most difficult in the aftermath of my loss. So after my sadness and after my anger and crying and why is me and just feeling very cheated for not having my parents so young. I felt that there was a lesson in this that I learned along the way and that I got so much out of keeping their memory alive. That, to me, restored the connection to. To my parents that I had been missing. It gave me an opportunity to teach my children about their grandparents on their maternal side. And so I really wanted to share stories. I wanted to make sure they knew their grandma and their grandpa. And so it was this wonderful opportunity to be proactive and to keep their memories alive. And so I spent so much time figuring out opportunities, creative ways, age appropriate, appropriate ways to do that. And for me, that's been the key. Keeping their memory alive, sometimes through their objects and heirlooms, has been the key to.

Moving forward and to making them feel really present with me today.

I think that speaks so much to grief that all of us know in these groups that, you know, the rest of the world imagines grief has an ending. We all know it doesn't. And I think there's something about our parents dying that it's easy to think of it as something we go through and forget. As you get married, they should be there. As you have kids, they should be there. That there's all these moments that we are connected back with them and that continue on, I am sure, into our old age. So tell me some of those things that you did to connect back to your parents and keep their memories alive.

Well, I brought a little show and tell.

Oh, yay. Yay. So.

So I wanted to show you two things, but one at a time. If we have time, I'll show you more.

Please do. Yeah.

So after my father passed away, he had a mask, like many men do, many neckties that he wore to work. And so after he passed away, I am not talented in this sewing sense, but I knew how to find a quilter. And I gave my father's neckties to the quilter. And she made.

Look at that wall hanging out of my father's ties. Can you guys see that?

Okay, that's great. Yeah.

And the reason why I'm pointing it out is that over time.

Over time, when my kids were small, I could go up to the Wall hanging and teach them their colors. I could show them the shapes and so I could teach them lessons from just using the quilt as an example. As they got older, my storytelling capability with the quilt became more, you know, multi layered. And I could handle telling them stories that were age appropriate about their grandfather and where I remember him wearing that necktie. So it became a physical way for me to share stories about their grandfather, to keep his memory alive, but in a practical, tangible way that they could touch and feel and smell and get to know their grandpa through those. Through those stories and through those colors and through those textures.

So wonderful that, you know, and it's just amazing. It's interesting. I have a friend who has a chair in her house made out of her father's ties.

I love that.

I love that. Just the idea. And I love that it's not just an article. And it's not just an article for you.

It's a connection with your kids, to their grandfather.

Yes. And I would say one of the lessons that I've learned over time is that there is power in doing any, any type of project to keep yourself connected to your loved one in terms of healing. And here's why. When loss is new, so much is out of our control, and that really feels. That your tether is really frayed and it feels unnerving and you feel somewhat lost. Right. Because everything just feels unwieldy. When you start being proactive where you can and when you can, and in this particular.

Story that I'm about to share, when you can take ownership of keeping your loved one's memory alive, to me, that's the pivot that allows us to move towards healing. Because you leave away this passive part of you where you become someone, where loss happened to you, and then you become someone. Well, how can you keep that memory going? And that's that proactive piece. There's that agency. And that to me is where the healing is. And I want to show you one more idea, David. Is that okay?

And let me just say on that, because I just want to talk about that just a little more psychologically that we do know. It's so important, just like you said, that active participation, that's why whether someone's in a group, they're in anything, that sort of allows you to connect with your feelings and not be passive, but be active, even if it's in these ways of creating things. And you know, we also.

We talked about in psychology, years ago.

Decades ago now, there was this thought that that relationship with the loved one who Died is coming to an end. We now know psychologically the opposite is true, that it is healthier for us to have continued connections. So I love all of this. Show us your next thing and tell us.

Yes, yes. So one of the first things I wrote about. I know we're going to get to it in one of my books, is this thing that I call a family fossil. Right. We all know what a fossil is, right? And so here, I'm going to hold it up for you. So do you see this?

Yes.

Inside is a necklace and what it is I bought.

Or is there more? Two hearts?

Yeah, there's two hearts. That's the charm, Right? And then you could see the beads.

Oh, right, right, right, right.

You could see the be.

People can see it a little better. Give me a moment.

Okay, show it again. Okay. So this is the necklace inside. You could see that. That inside, I guess there's a little bit of reflection. There's two hearts. And then you can see the beads here. Those are the strands of the actual necklace. And the hearts are the charm. So what I did here, this is a piece of costume jewelry that maybe after a loved one dies, maybe you would have decided to toss it. Maybe there was no monetary value. Maybe it wouldn't even have been something that you would hold onto. But what a family fossil allows you to do. I went to a craft store. I bought an empty snow globe. I bought artificial water mix, the same kind that you would use to put fake flowers in to make it look like water. And then I suspended this necklace in perpetuity. It won't move, which is why it's called the family fossil. But you can do this with. Imagine you can cut off the buttons of your loved one's shirt. You can use nails or screws. If your loved one was really handy around the house, you can get a bigger snow globe, right? You can get a bigger one. And you can maybe put in some measuring spoons. If your loved one loved to bake or to cook, you can imagine what you can do with this.

Oh, my gosh. I can think of the key to their front door that you know.

Yes, yes, exactly.

And so.

And you can do that with other people, right? So if you want to have a shared activity to remember your loved one together so you don't have to do this in isolation. It's one other opportunity that you can relish.

That's amazing because there's so many things like, literally, I'll go back to the key I can remember. There's something, you know, there's something personal about our loved ones wallet, their keys, you know, that are the things we carry on us. And I can remember whether it's my father, my son, that idea about their key. So that's where my mind went to that like you would look at, why would you keep a key? It doesn't open a door. And yet in our heart we're like, no, no, this was their key. So that's my. I'm doing a key. I'm on that.

It could be coins, right? You can imagine like the last coins that were in your loved one's pocket. Right. I mean, you can imagine all the different ways that you can utilize a family fossil. So I feel, you know, we talked about before why it's so important to be proactive. And there's something that really kind of illustrates this point. When a loved one dies, generally speaking, if we're lucky, it's okay to be a passive recipient of support, right? People, generally speaking, know how to show up for us if we are lucky. They know to send a text. They maybe know under normal non Covid circumstances, they know to go to a funeral. They know maybe to go to a wake or a shiva. People kind of know how to show up. So you're enabled to be in that initial moment passive, passively mourning what the shift is to then be proactively remembering. So if you can make the shift from being a passive mourner to an active rememberer of your loved one, I think there's a whole lot of strength that we can move forward with.

It's so important, I can't tell you. Literally in Tender Hearts. We did a lecture, I did a lecture and we had a whole discussion yesterday on toxic positivity and about how words matter. Whether they're people telling us to cheer up or get over it or move on, or us talking to ourselves saying, I'm backtracking, I'm having a breakdown, I'm melting down. Words matter. So I want you to repeat those words because it's so important we get these distinctions.

I advocate thinking about the distinction between passive mourning, M O U r right? Mourning. To active remembering. That's the distinction. Yep.

So, so important. So have you learned in all of this? The big question, obviously I get all the time, is.

I got to get to the stuff. I don't want to do anything with the stuff. I don't. And this is the amazing thing you're doing is when we go, I don't know what to do with the stuff. You're full of ideas, but also the Right time. I mean, my answer is always, there is no right time. There is no, you must do it in two weeks or one month or any of that. Have you noticed anything about that as sort of you've gone through all of this?

I have.

And I would say the longer the Runway you can give yourself to make decisions that you find difficult, the better. And what I mean by that is not everyone has the ability to hold on to belongings indefinitely. There is some reality that sets in. Maybe you have to get rid of an apartment because you're not paying rent on it anymore. Maybe you have to sell a home, right? There is some reality to that. Maybe you can't afford to have things in storage all the time. What I advocate is that there are going to be some belongings that are no brainers that you want to not keep any longer. They're going to be some belongings that you know for sure that you want to keep no matter what. That murky middle is what makes us feel stuck because there's so much emotion tied up into belongings that somehow if we let go of them, we maybe feel like we're doing our loved one a disservice, right? That we're somehow not honoring their memory by making sure we don't hang on to everything. So here are a couple of things that I have learned to keep in mind. Number one, if you can push off decision making, what may be hard today may become very clear to you in a year from now. So if you can identify a friend's garage or a friend's attic or closet where you can put a few items that you're struggling with, what to do with. Take your friend or your relatives or your co workers or your neighbor up on that opportunity. If you can get that space, why is that so important? Once you give away that object or that heirloom, even that scarf, you really can't get it back. And so if you are uneasy, the best way to scaffold yourself and protect yourself from making a choice that you may regret when you're not feeling up to making these decisions is to provide yourself with opportunities to delay choices that right now feel uncomfortable to be made. That is number one, David, for sure.

And let me just say in my teachings, I tell people this is about you and your grief and your relationship with your loved ones. Your neighbor who thinks you're hanging on to things too long is none of your business.

Other people's opinion on what you should do other than you say, you know, if the lease is up, you got to deal with it, don't let that noise in. All right.

I 100% agree with that. So number two, if you have your cup runneth over and you know there are for sure objects that you think that there's just too much for for you, but it feels maybe not what you want to do is to just toss those objects right. Here are some things that you can do that's thoughtful and helpful in keeping your memory of your loved one alive. That is short of it only staying with you. So I'll give it as an example for what we did as a family. So after my mother passed away, we were able to identify who were those not only neighbors who helped care for her and loved her when she was living. Neighbors don't normally get objects that belong to a loved one. That, generally speaking, is for the immediate family. How can you expand the circle of who you give objects to? So maybe it's neighbors, maybe it's co workers, maybe you can expand the circle further and find high school friends or college friends, maybe it's the nurses or the hospice personnel who took care of your loved one. And each time you identify that person, you. Each time you send an email or pick up the phone to then give that object or mail the object, you've cracked open a moment to share a story about your loved one. And more importantly too, or not more importantly, but maybe at some point, maybe equally important, you get to hear a story in return. So by giving an object to someone who will appreciate it, they now have permission, if they were otherwise uncomfortable, to call you for fear of maybe, upsetting you for fear of maybe? Is this the right time to reach out to see if you're doing okay? You've given them permission to reach out to you and share a story about your loved one. And hopefully it might be an anecdote that you've never heard before.

All right, gotta unpack that.

First of all, I love all of that. I love all of that. And I also think about especially what you said. And I worked in hospitals for decades. Let's say your mother died. She had 20 vases. You decide, you know your top five. These are the ones that mean something. And there's these others that, you know, they don't have a value. But oh, my goodness, I can think of being around so many nurses who will tell me how touched they were that someone gave the idea that you say to them, this is a vase of my mother's. And you came in and you brought a little beauty to our life in such a. We wanted you to have the Vase. Oh, my gosh. That would mean the world to a nurse.

Another way. Yeah, another way of in the world. Sorry. Yes, I 100% agree.

I agree with you. I agree with you. I'm sorry that I stepped on you. I agree.

So excited about all this. It's okay.

I agree. I also think, by the way, it's a perfect time to mention, if folks here are interested, if your loved one has died of COVID 19, the New York Times is looking for you to talk about the objects that your loved one has left behind and what that story means to you. So if you Google New York Times Objects project or something similar, you will find a portal and you could share with the New York Times your story. I am sure there might be an opportunity to then, you know, share it even further of what your loved one meant and why the object tells that story of your mom or your dad or your husband or your wife or your child.

And so important, one last piece I want to say about your last tip.

What's so valuable about that is the idea of, this is my mother's vase. I'm giving it to you. You meant so much. That nurse, then maybe, or that person or the neighbor or whoever it is, just like you said, tells you a story that you didn't know. And that means so much to us. Because when our loved one dies, it feels like there's no more of them. And suddenly when you hear another story, there's more of your loved one. So, so important. So important.

You know, David, I just saw in the chat that I think Deborah is saying, well, what if the person you know doesn't want the memento? I can actually talk about that directly. So recently, my mother has been gone.

20 years, and we recently came across. She had collected teapots, all different kinds of teapots. And I recently came back into possession of them. None of them are particularly fancy. Some of them are unusable. Some of them are merely decorative. Some of them are miniature and just for display. And so I'm a woman of my word. I did exactly what we've been talking about. I got in touch with my uncle. I got in touch, of course. I mean, I talk to my brother all the time. My niece and my nephew, my own children. And then I expanded the circle because they were a lot of teapots. And I got in touch with my mother's college roommates.

And I asked them ahead of time, I took pictures of all of them. And I said, I recently came back into possession of these. Do any of them speak to you, which one would you want? If any of them? And so I did do it in a way that protected them from accepting an object that maybe they didn't want. But it allowed us to reminisce about my mom, who's been gone, you know, 20 years. So it was quite a gift.

And so back to her point, someone says, I don't want that. What would you say? I mean, I have a response, but what would you say if someone goes, yeah, no, I don't want any of that stuff.

I guess I feel that if that was the response, I would say, okay, I totally get it, and I respect that, and I appreciate it, and I thought you would. So no harm, no foul, and I would gladly take it back. And then I would pivot, and I would see who else might want that particular object, or that might be the time where I've been able to move that particular object into that other pile, that pile that I'm finally able to truly let go of. But I've given myself that time that you and I were speaking about before. Right. Once you let it all go, you can't get it back. So providing yourself that kind of bubble wrap to make your decisions when you're comfortable, maybe that would finally be your letting go moment of that particular item. So, you know, I would just let it roll off my shoulders and say, okay, you know, I thought you would like it.

I can absolutely see how, as the person says in the chat, they would be crushed. And I would also say, you know, to think about.

And you. You all have heard me talk about this. And the whole concept of it crushed is a story we make up about ourselves. I would also make up a story in my mind if someone said, oh, I don't want any teapots. I got a hundred of them. I would make up a story right away, oh, they're not the person. They're not the person. The universe is telling me they're not the person. That would be important information for me.

Yeah, I see that, too. I think that's a really, really good point, for sure.

You know, I also think just to sort of lay a little bit of this out more.

I think about, first of all, for people watching, the idea of dealing with things, we all have that sense of, I don't want to let anything go. I want to keep everything. I always show this to people. Your phone. It's one of the greatest things we have now because we've learned psychologically, you cannot keep everything, but you can photograph everything. And when you look at your phone and you look at something of your loved one. I don't have to keep my father's suit. I just need a picture of his suit or him in the suit, and I get the same emotional response. Then I can give the suit away. And it can have legacy and can maybe help someone get a job, which I know you think is so important too, that these objects can have legacy with us and in the world for others.

Well, that's what Alex Trebek's son just did, by the way. Alex Trebek had all those suits that he wore on Jeopardy. And I'm not sure if folks know his son donated them. So homeless men can go apply and go get work and to have a new step on their future. And so to me, I feel like what a wonderful way to honor memory is to do something like that. I love that idea and I want.

To go back because I also see so many people. And by the way, if you have questions, Allison, you are coming for a few questions from.

Course.

Definitely Facebook people. Put your questions in the chat and then tender hearts will come to you afterwards and you'll be able to come on Face to Face and talk to Allison is. I want to go back to the time I got to tell you I had with my younger son who died. I had to fairly quickly go to his apartment, deal with all his belongings and his clothes. I put all the clothes that I knew should go to Goodwill in my car. They were in bags in the car. And I was like, on it next day, going to Goodwill. I got up the next morning, went in that car and smelled him. And I went, there is no way. There is no way. So I think I probably drove around for about three weeks. And even when I did give the bags away, there was still like one. I'm like, not ready. Just. I'm just holding it. And it's not different from the others, but I'm just holding it. I actually still in my.

Closet from my father, who's now dead couple of decades. He had a little overnight bag. Whenever he visited. He had this overnight bag with his wallet. Same thing. He brought it to the hospital, brought it down when he died. It's in the top of my closet. It has no use, except it's part of my father that's still in my home.

I think we can get very utilitarian about its usefulness. And some things don't have to have a purpose. They just hold a space in our heart.

I agree. And I love what you've been able to or being willing to share. I Would take the conversation in another direction, which is also giving us permission to completely transform objects from their current state. So you talked about hanging on to objects as is. Right. There's definitely opportunity to do that. I showed you the quilt before, which.

This is like, where you show us. Yeah, tell us more.

So I showed you the quilts, you know, where I kind of chopped up my father's ties. But there's other opportunities, too. You know, I'm a. I work for a senior advisor to taps, so they do a lot of work with military families who've lost a military loved one. And one of the ideas that we've talked about a lot in the TAPS community is what to do with fatigues, what to do with uniform, what to do with those objects that mean something, that are fabric. And you can turn a jacket into a bag, you can turn a pair of pants into. I'm making this up. Of course, you know, a table runner, so you can use that during a meal. There are ways of kind of reimagining objects, so if you don't have the space or maybe something doesn't particularly give you pleasure as is. What I love talking about is how to kind of reimagine things. You can keep the essence of the object still feel connected to your loved one, because it still is the object, but then transform it. I'll give you one concrete idea.

Yes, please.

When my grandma.

All the ideas keep them coming.

When my grandmother died, she was a prolific knitter, and I must say, an awful knitter, because no one ever wore the sweaters that she made. I must say, I don't. I love my grandma so much. So no hate mail, please. I love my grandma, but every sweater was boxy, didn't have a waist, just looked frumpy, and no one was wearing them. We had sweaters that were meant for babies coming home from the hospital, that the stuff sleeves were twice as long as they needed to be. You get the picture? And so, of course, we couldn't get rid of all of these sweaters. After my grandmother died. We all had them in our closets, you know, no one wearing them. So what I did is that I gave the sweaters to someone who actually knows what they're doing, who's a knitter. We unspooled all of the yarn, and then we refashioned the sweaters into gloves and mittens and hats for the winter. Now those we wear, but it's the actual yarn that my grandmother used to make those sweaters. So there's a lot of ideas that you can do if what the object is no longer brings you happiness. Giving yourself permission to kind of be creative, I find to be really healing.

Right. The other thing I just thought of that I have. Hanging up. When I went years ago to get my private pilot's license, there's an old tradition, after you do your solo, they would rip your shirt off and they would nail it on the wall. So now after people do their private pilots test, you often will take your T shirt and they'll take it and make. They'll put it and frame it and they'll write down, this is your first solo and talk about it.

Right.

So we can always. You could always frame some clothing and even talk about what it is or what it meant.

Can I show you some books of other people that I recommend?

I'm good. Can we show your books?

Yeah, for sure.

Books first.

Okay. Well, I was just trying to be useful and. Yes, of course.

Yes. Let's start with you.

Okay.

Past and present, Keeping memories alive. It's Allison Gilbert. First of all, people have just heard your stories. They may recognize you. I just want to help them understand who we're talking to. CNN reporter. I think there might be an Emmy behind you.

You know, you also, you are the voice. What is it, the Memorial center.

Yeah, the 911 memorial. Yeah.

I mean, so you. You come to us with some pretty impressive. A journalist who's done amazing things in the world. Always too soon. Voices of support for those who have lost both parents. Wonderful book.

Parentless Parents.

So anyone here who wants to find you, tell us your website. You've also got courses, right?

Yes, I just launched courses. Yeah, I just launched the courses. Because of COVID 19, like you, David, I travel the country normally talking about grief and loss and remembrance. And I, of course, like everyone else, couldn't travel any further. So I developed four courses during COVID that, by the way, are all intentionally, really tight. They're all really short, 45 minutes. Watch the video. Free downloads that come with them all. And one of them, which is very germane to our conversation right now, is about objects and heirlooms, what to do, how to do it, what, where are the resources, free ideas, you know, opportunities that may cost a little bit, but really can kind of take you over that hump. And so that course and all the courses are on my website, which is Alison Gilbert dot com. And of course, I'm on social like you. So people connect. Definitely connect with me there as well.

Wonderful. I'm so, you know, it's just. Yeah. Someone's Going, I see two Emmys. Are there two Emmys there?

I think there might be. So embarrassing. But I think there actually might be four.

Well, that's pretty good. That's impressive.

But who's counting?

But who's counting? I love people are just sharing ideas they did on Facebook and here in Tender Hearts. I would just say keep sharing those ideas because it's the kind of thing you just might not think of it. And someone else, like you said, thought of something amazing. They did.

Yes, go on.

No, I was just going to say the whole wonderful. I love this opportunity, David, that you provide your community the idea that we can all be here together to create a moment where we can talk about these ideas. To be honest, that's why I wrote Past and Present Keeping memories of loved ones alive because no one talks about this. And so the idea that you're giving us an hour to talk about those tethers to our past that are tangible. My gosh, David, I've been waiting for this. I'm so grateful that you're giving this platform that's so meaningful.

And you know, I'm all about expanding the conversation. And people want to have the conversation, the world around people in grief about when to get rid of the things, how long to keep them. And it's such a low level conversation. There's a bigger conversation that we're having today. What do these things mean? How can they have legacy? How do we keep them alive? How can they still be functional? How can they be gifts to others? I mean, there's a million conversations that we can open up instead of keep or toss.

I'm going to tell you two things. Number one, this has real scientific backing. The idea of investing your energy into keeping the memory of your loved ones alive. There is real hardcore scientific literature, as you know, David, that really underscores the value. And when it comes to objects, let me just say there was this incredible study not done too long ago, where researchers studied the individuals who donated their loved ones belongings to the 911 Memorial and Museum. What was the emotional upside of giving away those objects to that institution? And the upside is that you know that that object will be cared for, it'll be appreciated, it'll be within a curated environment that will be respected and that your loved one's memory will endure. And so there is real research about this too. And I'll say one other thing. I wrote an article, an essay for oh, the Oprah magazine a couple years ago and it was about the same science of nostalgia. There is an entire body of research that delves into nostalgia as being something that could really lift us up. And so for those well meaning friends in your life, those well meaning co workers or family members who say, stop thinking about the past, stop showing those photographs on the wall all the time, it's time to move on. None of that is actually true. The more we invest in our memories so the research shows, the stronger we will be as we move forward after a death. And so if that's permission, you don't need it from me. But it is grounded in science. And so this is why I find it so fascinating to research and so important to write about and to make.

Things so tangible for people about. Especially in these times, there's such hard economic times. And if we have things that we feel would empower our loved ones to have legacies in someone else's life and help them and find purpose. You know, one of the things I did with my kids when they were young, we went to Target once, and when we're at Target, we're in the toy aisle. And I said to them, count the number of toy aisles. And there were whatever 12 toy aisles. Then after that we went to Goodwill, and I went into Goodwill and I said, let's count the number of toy aisles. And they suddenly realized there was a toy bin. And I'm like, you know those toys that we are not using? And so for those things of our loved ones can be so meaningful to other people. And in these little bitty ways, our loved ones live on in the world. I love the idea of that.

I agree, I agree, I agree. I love the fact that we're normalizing this conversation. In fact, I'll be very candid if I may, because I'm a journalist and not a grief expert in the academic sense. Why I wrote the book was because there were academics who were saying the words that you and I are talking about, which is, it's important to keep the memory of your loved ones alive. It helps with healing. But David, that is where they stopped the conversation. They didn't then go into how. And I found that really frustrating. As a consumer, as a reader, as someone who's lost her mom and her dad. I'm like, well, then tell me what to do. You know, there's more than we can do than light a candle, go to a cemetery. I mean, all those things are great. The only word that I was interested in was and A N D. What else could I do? Yes, I want to go to the cemetery. Yes, I want to light a candle. And. And so that is where that came from.

Well, your creativity you bring to this is amazing. We're going to say goodbye to our friends on Facebook and we're going to have an extended version in Tender Hearts for all of you in Facebook. Thank you. Please keep posting. Tell us when you're having a bad day. Tell us when you're having a good day. It gives others hope. If you have ideas of really cool things or pictures of things you've done with loved ones things, put them in the Facebook group here to see it. Tender Hearts is open. If you're interested, just know that. And Facebook friends, I will see you all soon and take care. And we are going to continue on in Tender Hearts now. Thank you, everyone on Facebook.