Cheryl Juaire and David Kessler on addiction and grief

Moment as people find their way on Today tonight, it is amazing that the week has ended or has it.

All right. Ah, there we are. Good. I at least see that we're on, so we'll give folks a moment to come on. It takes people a few minutes to find us. I'm excited to be with you tonight, Cheryl, and hear the valuable information you're going to share with us.

So we'll time to come on here. Cheryl, you said you're coming from Massachusetts, is that right?

That's right.

Very good. And I'm here in Los Angeles and we're going to have people from all over joining us. Pat is already here from Indianapolis, so more people will be logging in. I'll give folks some time to find us here.

Say hello when you come on if you want. You don't have to. But as we physically distance from one another, it's a nice way to connect to see and be seen. But you don't have to. All right, Sharon's here. Cheryl. Daniel from Midland, Texas. Lisa is from Pennsylvania. Shannon from Connecticut. Betty's here from Ohio. So glad you're here. Hey, Carla from Georgia.

Mary, New Jersey.

Hey. Michael from Tulsa, Oklahoma. Deacon. Michael. I'm glad you're here. Kathleen from Charlotte, North Carolina. Jennifer is here from New Jersey. Welcome. See, we got people coming from all over. Cheryl.

Jacqueline. Camarillo, Shirley, Pennsylvania. Whitney, Michigan. Patricia, North Carolina. Darcy's Medford, Oregon. Hey. Carol in West Hollywood. Chantal in Connecticut. I joke about with folks that when I was growing up, there was something called Romper Room, and I think it was Ms. Jeannie would look in her little mirror and pretend like she was seeing people from their tv. All right, Mary's here from Redondo Beach. Phyllis from the Virgin Islands. Hey. Robin from New York. Sandra from Maryland. Wonderful. I just want to give people time to find us. Daisy from Brisbane. I was going to say Australia, but it's Brisbane, California. I didn't even know there was one.

Brenda from Orangevale, California. I'll have to go to Brisbane, California, someday. So we're going to be talking tonight about an important topic about dealing with death from an overdose from addiction. And we're gonna have a chance for you to ask questions.

I've got someone here that's so important in this world and has been through it all. Cheryl Jouer is here tonight with us. So I'll just give people a few moments to still. Come on, Jennifer, New Jersey. All right. Carolyn. Yes. Jennifer from New Mexico. We got a few Jennifers. Tracy from Pennsylvania, Jill from Delaware. Welcome.

Welcome, welcome. All right, so I'm going to go ahead and begin. If you haven't been here with us before, if you're new to the group, and while people are signing on, I also need to just check to see if anyone does need to come in. Many times we have people who, like, right when we come on, they're like, oh, I got to get in. All right, everyone's in. Who wants to be in? So.

This is a group that I started after COVID 19. It just broke my heart that people were grieving alone. Grief groups had been canceled, and on top of anyone who had all losses that happened to be going and an old loss could have happened like the day before COVID 19, who had a loss that was not COVID 19, all of a sudden their grief groups were gone. And then people started dying still of COVID 19 and everything else we die from. And if your loved one died in the hospital, you couldn't see them. If your loved one died of an overdose around this, you couldn't go to have a funeral for them. So everyone's impacted in grief, and the idea that we're all physically disconnected broke my heart. So I thought we can at least virtually connect with people, and that's why this group is here. So I come on every day at 1pm Pacific Time, and then I come on in the evening again at 5 or 6pm and we have guests in like Cheryl tonight. We've had some wonderful guests who have come on Jason Green around the loss of his child. We had Maria Quabon, who anyone in Los Angeles knows her from tv. She's our weather person. Talk about the death of her husband. We had.

Kim Goldman on that was really amazing in her vulnerability. Talk about the death of her brother, Ron Goldman, and the podcast she was featured in and did called confronting O.J. simpson about what it's like to be a statistic and not be seen in the public eye when you have a loss. So lots of people are donating their time. And Cheryl's our wonderful guest tonight that's donating her time. So I always like to just take a moment of silence. We're all here because someone we love has died. So I'd like to take a moment just to send them love and to remember them together collectively. So let's do that.

Thank you. Thank you all for doing that with me. So, Cheryl, welcome. I'm everyone who comes on. I'm sorry you're here. I'm sorry you. You've had the experience. It's heartbreaking. Tell us about your world and what brings you to this world.

So I lost my son, Corey Merrill, in 2011 from an overdose. It was. It was heroin at the time.

Back in 2011, I didn't know anything about the disease of addiction, so I thought what he was doing was just a choice. And I spent a lot of time being angry with him, telling him that he needed to grow up, that he needed to stop doing what he was doing. He was a new dad. So he had my granddaughter faith. She was four and a half months old when he passed.

And he was 23 years old when he died.

Wow.

And how was that aftermath for you? Just.

So back then again, in 2011.

This opioid epidemic that's so prevalent now was very quiet where I was living in Florida. So I didn't know anybody who had lost a child, let alone to addiction. So it's funny that you say you know people in grief alone, which is why you're doing what you did for the next couple of years. After Corey died, I suffered in my grief alone. I had no one to talk to. I didn't know any parents that had even lost a child to anything. So I cried a lot for the next couple of years.

I was living in Florida when Corey died, so I would fly up every three months because he was buried in Massachusetts. And I just needed to be close to his grave. I just needed to go see him all the time. And nobody understood, you know, when I told people that I would lay on top of the grave because it made I was close to his bones, and that gave me comfort.

And then it was time for me to move home. I just needed to be home, which was the best thing I ever did.

And I think, you know, parents understand that feeling. I mean, I certainly had that feeling when my son died that it was like my GPS was spinning and couldn't find him. And as a parent, you need to locate something. You know, that's how it felt for me. So.

So after moving back here, I finally, on Facebook in a group, heard of a couple of moms who had lost their child. And one of those moms reached out to a few moms from Massachusetts. There was actually seven of us. And I got a text message one night that said, I know you don't know me, but there are seven of us meeting at a restaurant about an hour from me. And I know it's short notice, but we'd love to have you join us. So, long story short, I went because I just had a feeling I knew what us meant. And we seven Sat around that table and we laughed and we cried and we shared our stories and we shared our grief.

And we.

All of a sudden it was like, you felt that way too. Oh, my God. I thought I was crazy because there were so many times when I just wanted to die. I just.

Didn'T want to live anymore. I wasn't going to take my life, but I just didn't want to live with that pain anymore. And I found others felt that exact same way. So now I was finding some normalcy in the way I was feeling over my son's death. And that is when I began to heal. And so.

When I went home that night, I couldn't sleep. I was just. I was so excited that I met my sisters in grief. And I created, at that time, I created a group messaging for the seven of us so that we could just all like, never lose that again. Because it was, you know, we could have closed the restaurant. And within a month, they had the fat up barely in 2015. And I said, hey, you guys want to go? And boom, seven of us were on an airplane. We went to Washington D.C. to the fat up early there we met a couple of more moms and dads that had lost kids. And so when I came back from there, I said, you know, I'm going to create a Facebook group just for us here in Massachusetts, us parents that have lost a child. One of the biggest things, the biggest complaint that I found was that over time, people forget our child's date of birth and their date of death. And that's a really hurtful one for us. I was like, okay, so from now on, anybody that joins this group, they have to share with me their child's date of birth and date of death, because in this group, we will never Forget those dates.

Massachusetts has over 700 members right now as of today. And we have an admin that's in there that does 8 to 10 posts every single day, never forgetting one of those child's angelversaries or birthdays.

Wow.

So. But I didn't expect that was. I just thought it was going to be the seven of us, maybe 10, you know, in that group. I didn't expect, you know, God had another plan.

So.

You, you and I met when you came to one of my lectures on the book tour for finding meaning. And you were there and you were someone who. You have found lots of meaning. You have found lots of way to honor your son and to find meaning in making sure this death doesn't happen to other people and educating people. So I'D love for you to talk for a moment about, first of all, how did you learn that process of, oh, maybe this isn't just a choice our loved ones are making to read the reality of what it is and then how you're helping the world change?

Well, it's education, you know, I mean, we still have the stigma out there, but I tell people, educate yourself. I mean, and I would go to seminars. I would go, you know, watch TV programs. Anything on addiction I would learn about. And, you know, I, as so many other moms, carry the grief that if I only knew then what I know now, you know. So.

My main purpose, because I suffered in my grief so long, is to bring other moms that are newly grieved into the group so that we can all share together. And we do advocacy work.

We'll go to Washington, D.C. on the Care act so that, you know, your strongest warriors are the moms and dads that have already lost their child. By far, they're the strongest warriors. They're the first ones that will get up and say, I'm ready now. I need to do something. And one of the things we always say is, you know, we can no longer help our child, but we can help yours. And we do do that.

So just for anyone. Because I. So much of the time in this group, we see so much guilt, so much what if? So much. How did they make that choice? Choice. Just a few things. And please correct me if any of these things I need education on. We know now this is an illness in our loved one's brain. It is not a choice they're making. It is not. They couldn't just say no. It needs to be treated just like any other illness. People in grief who have lost a loved one to addiction need to hear the exact same things that people in cancer hear, not a different version. Know what a selfish thing to do, or why didn't your child just stop? Or whatever we hear. And that.

With addiction, it's such a struggle for people because there is a lot of that old stigma and that this was a choice and that loved ones could have just gone, oh, do I want a life of struggle in meetings and relapse, or do I want a happy life and they're choosing to struggle? That's not what's happening. They have an illness that's just as real as any other illness and it needs to be treated that way. Anything I'm missing there or you want to add?

No, you're not missing anything. Just that, you know, this morning I got a Phone call from a mom.

Who just shared with me that right before Thanksgiving, we went to a silver home and we fed all the guys that were there big turkey dinner. And yes, we just went and brought a little bit of light. And all of us moms that were there had lost our child, so we kind of took them all under our wing. I got the phone call today that one of the boys there that I had connected with just passed away this morning. And I remember sitting there talking to him. And it's them that feel worthless. It's them that feel that stigma. It's them that think so badly of themselves, you know, so the part that you might have missed was that they're not bad people, but they think that they are.

They are ill people. Right? And that, you know, I had the privilege years ago of working with Michael Landon, you know, Little House on the Prairie and all that. And it's hard for us to remember. And my father would tell me this, a generation or two ago, there was actually stigma around cancer. And, you know, Michael Landon wanted to go. We really got him ready and gave him IVs. He wanted to go on the Tonight show and talk about it to begin to end that stigma. And I feel like in decades to come, we're going to look back on addiction and go, can you believe we used to think it was their fault and our society put that on them, that instead of them getting the help they need, they are looked down on. And I also think, you know, for me.

When I was growing up, if things went wrong and you were going to turn to any kind of drugs or alcohol, there was cocaine, beer, wine and marijuana. There was no possibility of an. Not as much possibility of opiates or heroin or fentanyl. And, you know, this may be controversial to some. I'll be curious to hear what you think about. But I know in 12 step there is this sense of.

Relapse is just part of addiction and part of recovery. I think with the different drugs now as deadly as they are, you know, I've taken people who are addicted to the grave and gone. This is also what relapse looks like. Just so you know, you're dealing with a deadlier illness now than ever, right?

It's like playing Russian roulette every time they relapse. It's like playing Russian roulette. But so that's the thing back in 2011 with Corey, what I would say to him is that, like, I knew what I did in high school too, but then I got married and had kids and grew up, you know, it's these opioids. And he was taking those opioids. And I knew nothing about opioids then, like I do now.

You know, he smoked marijuana. He did all that. And to me, it was like, Cory just stopped. You need to grow up, you know, I mean, he went into. He went into different. You know, he'd go into a detox. But I just say, all right, get over whatever it is that you need to do in there and then come back out and let's. Let's do real life. You know, I had no clue. I had no clue.

And I find that's pretty universal in grief. We take the information we have now. We have 2020 hindsight, and we take it and punish ourselves for not knowing what we didn't know then. You know, our loved ones didn't know. We didn't know they were ill. And even now, I see so many people and look, the what ifs, the if onlys, the self blame is grueling. It's grueling.

And I think it's so hard for anyone who's had a loved one with an addiction to understand.

Your loved one died of an addiction. They did not die because you called or didn't call or argue or didn't argue because you set a boundary or didn't set a boundary. They died because of a horrific addiction.

What was bad also was they would teach you tough love, though, you know, that we had to live with. Like, you know, it's okay to set boundaries and let him sleep on park benches because then, you know, he's got to hit rock bottom. So, you know, we kind of. We kind of live with that, too, because I knew my son was sleeping on some park benches, you know, so, yeah, that's. That's part of the grief that we have to deal with. But we take our grief and we try to be proactive with it as well, because I could take that and die, you know, with that grief, but I choose not to. I choose to live for my son.

Right. That's lovely. Lovely. Say that again just so everyone hears that.

I choose to live for my son.

That's really lovely. So talk to us about the opioid epidemic and sort of what's happening with that now.

The opioid epidemic. Right now, everything's kind of on hold because of the Purdue bankruptcy.

What I can say is that I was chosen to be on the unsecured creditors committee for the Purdue bankruptcy. I can't really say a whole lot more than that. I have a fiduciary duty, and I'm bound by it, and I will stick with that.

But there is a.

Claim that people can file, and they have till June 30th if they think that their child has passed away from an opioid.

Your child, or could it be your brother or any of your.

I'm sorry. Yes, anybody. Anybody. Brother, sister, uncle, Anybody that you know of that passed. Again, this is specific to Purdue, but there is a.

Claim out there.

Oxycontin is Oxycontin, Correct? Right. Okay.

But it. So if. If it was another drug, you can't file the claim because it's specific to Purdue. Because that's the bankruptcy.

Yeah, but so clarification. And I'm not to want you to divulge anything that obviously you. You shouldn't be divulging. But if your loved one. Let's say they died, their actual death was from fentanyl. But if sometime they started with opioids or opioids were anywhere in their history, would they be eligible?

Yes, as long as they can prove that they took an oxycontin with a prescription at any point.

That'S a guarantee.

But we know that.

These drugs were out in the street, and anybody could get them. So you would have to.

Seek an attorney and find out what your rights are for that way. But.

Yeah. Okay. Are you open to taking some questions from anyone that they have?

All right, so put your questions in if you have any questions. And.

There was one thing I wanted. Betty, can you tell me more about your question? I forgot what Betty's question was.

What do we do with the knowledge of what we could really do? And, you know, I think. Betty, I'd like you to tell us more about that, because what happens just for me, and working with people in grief is our mind really gives us more power than we had. Our mind gives us the power that if we would have done one thing differently, they wouldn't have died that night. And somehow their addiction would have magically been gone. Addiction would have magically been gone. And I think it's hard for us to realize, as we've seen with also so many people who have died by suicide, how deadly mental illness addiction being mentally compromised is. And that just because maybe you think your call would have stopped them that moment doesn't mean that their addiction would have been gone. But we blame ourselves as if the addiction had nothing to do with it. It was all our call or all of what we did.

All right, so a lot of people are sending a lot of love.

Do you know? Are There Facebook groups in other states?

Yes. So if you go on our Website, team sharing InchararingInc.org if you go on our website, you can find all the chapters. We have 21 state chapters and we have a national chapter. So.

And we're growing. We have two admins for each chapter.

And we're just, we're, we're growing every, every single day. So once, once these parents find us, that's, that's how we grow and we support each other. I mean, that's what we're all about. We're all, we're all about support. We're just a peer led group that just share. And it's amazing when we share our feelings how somebody else will say, I felt that exact same way. So what happened to me four years ago is still happening today, you know, with, with the parents, the way they explain things and how they feel. So when there's a newly bereaved mom or dad entering the group, we all know exactly what they're, what they feel.

Mary says for the claim, what type of proof. And that may be something they would consult with their lawyer on or maybe on the Purdue website or.

Yeah, I'm not sure exactly. There's, there's a claim form out there that you would file.

And that would.

Tell you, I mean, I would just say as someone looking on the outside, if you knew your loved one for sure was using an, you know, oxycontin anytime, I'd be putting a claim in before the end of that period. That's just me.

Yeah, well, it's only till June 30th, so.

Yeah, so I would be putting your claim in. Jennifer says my husband died suddenly from alcohol addiction at the age of 54. We were best friends since being teenagers and married for 30 years. A month after his death, I discovered he had been having an affair. I'm grieving my best friend, grieving the marriage that I thought I had. He is the one who died, but I feel like I'm the victim. I'm so angry. You know, Jennifer, I don't know if you have anything to say, but we are going to have someone come on and talk about betrayal and affairs because that does come out so often after death. So just know that's a topic we're going to be taking on.

Janine says my beautiful Ryan struggled for a long time ending up on opiates. I had him come and live with me in Hawaii. Warm here. Thought it might help. What I found is he got so depressed with. Here, here, didn't have his Regular channels. When he learned Philip Seymour Hoffman died from heroin, he was so depressed and stayed in bed all day, he had to go home. His flight home was, she tells me the date, and then he was gone a week later.

And I'm sure you have so many feelings of if only you've done this or done that and just know that's a statement about how deadly addiction is.

Yeah. There's people who have questions about whether it had to come from a drugstore and all that. And I just think, file your claim. That's just me. Yeah. Sharon says our 33 year old son Joshua died of a suspected overdose and having an incredibly hard time dealing with the guilt, the what ifs, the could have, should have, it had been. It's been 10 weeks. And by the way, 10 weeks is like a minute ago in grief time. And we still do not have the autopsy report. And the police refused to release Joshua's belongings. Any advice or suggestions on how to cope?

What would you say to her on that?

Well, like you said, 10 weeks ago is like a minute, because it really is.

And as far as the police, you know, I don't know, but I would reach out to, you know, joint team sharing, come and join us and we'll help you, we'll talk to you, we'll, you know, make a phone call.

And Judy says, I just don't be alone. Right.

Just don't do it alone.

Judy says, I can't do anything because he didn't have a prescription. Judy, file a claim. File a claim if you know, he was on OxyContin anytime. Because the crisis also put OxyContin out and made it easy to get on the street. So just my advice, file a claim. Pat says, do you feel physicians who, who prescribe opiates should be held financially responsible? The same as the pharmaceutical company you mentioned?

I think they're all responsible. Everybody's got their hand in it, right? Yeah.

Danielle says it's been almost 10 months for me. She says I still can't get her things from her fiance's apartment or even watch a video of her. Is that normal?

That is normal. And it might take you a little longer than that.

David, you could probably talk on complicated grief too. People that get stuck in grief.

Right.

That's something that you really got to be careful for.

Well, and you know, there's two sides of complicated grief. There is. What's there for the DSM 5 so how counselors get paid, and we want our counselors to get paid for the work they're doing. But complicated grief says if you have an emotion that's sort of lasting longer than six months, it can be considered complicated grief. Cheryl for me, the idea at six months and a day, I'm not supposed to be sad anymore, is crazy, right? Right. So just know that complicated grief is a payment mechanism. It has nothing to do with your reality. But anytime we get stuck in an emotion, whether it's guilt or whatever it may be, that can become complicated. And if you're dealing with that, please get help. Please be watching us. You know, please get on here and talk to people. I'm doing sessions, you know, literally twice a day. We've had one on complicated grief. Those are all there for you to watch anytime. Kim says, Kathy says, can I join the Massachusetts group? My son is buried there, but I live in New Jersey.

We have a New Jersey group.

Okay. Brenda says, could you say the websites again?

Team sharinginc.org Sherry asked, Do we know how addiction begins? I wonder about the adolescent brain exposed to drugs and if that starts the addiction.

I'm sorry.

So she said, and I can go with this too. Do we know how the addiction begins? I wonder about the adolescent brain exposed to drugs and if that starts the addiction.

Dr. Ruth Potay, if anybody's ever listened to her, I highly recommend her. She talks about addiction in the adolescent brain. She talks about marijuana a lot about the marijuana, because that's where most kids start. But yes, it definitely starts with the adolescent brain. She recommends that if you were to do drugs at 25 and over, once your brain is developed, there's less likely chance that you could get addicted than if you were 17.

And I also wonder what we're going to learn in the future about predisposition, about DNA. I mean, I think there's a lot to learn. You know, it's. It's fascinating to me.

I'm very much in this world. I know a lot of people who are in recovery, how our brains are all different. You know, I'm someone who, I tried many drugs and sort of went, okay, that was interesting, right? But I had a cigarette and fought with them for the next 40 years. For whatever reason, cigarettes were my addiction weakness. And, and see, I shouldn't even been saying weakness. See, it's interesting to know how we even put things like that on ourselves. So I caught myself there. But for whatever reason, I have a mind that gravitates to that. I know people, like, can casually have a cigarette.

You know, once every three years. They drive me nuts. And I've seen the same be True. With all different drugs. So. But what I think is different is when we talk about the cigarettes or the this or that, when you get into heroin and opiates and fentanyl, it's a new level of addiction that there isn't. I don't hear a lot of people saying, yeah, I can take early heroin. I mean, it's just not that kind of drug. The drugs are so much more powerful now, so much more deadly.

And they don't know that.

Right.

You know.

Cheryl says, oh, Cheryl, when you explained that those who have had addictions feel bad about themselves, that was very helpful sharing your story and being open with that. I think that's so true. We forget, you know, I. How.

The addicted person.

Carol, what about real physical pain? Taking of a pain pill?

What about real physical taking of a pain pill? I think she's asking, what if I was prescribed opiates for real pain that I'm having? I think you can still get addicted. And that's where a lot of this starts.

Yeah. That's why the doctors are limiting to three days on opioids, because good chances are after five days you can become addicted.

Right.

All right, let's see here.

So someone says, I've spoken with an attorney and she says, there's nothing I can do. My response to that is, talk to another attorney. Just. That's just me saying that.

Just a thought. Someone else says, I wish I could, but I'm in Canada. Jeannie says, I've been going to my local, the compassionate friends group and I'm interested how there still is stigma even in that group causing around the cause of death. I can always tell when a new parent is there because their child from addiction. Because they don't share. I always try to open up sharing my story. The majority of our members have children that have passed on from cancer. The second largest is death by suicide. You know, I think you can find stigma everywhere, can't you?

There's. We have a lockdown. Selves. Parents that have lost their children won't even speak of it. Their child passed away from addiction and they'll move so nobody will know that that happened. And as long as that keeps happening, that stigma is still going to stay there.

Right. And I think it's important when we talk about addiction that like addiction is alcohol, addiction is cocaine, addiction can be sex. You know, addiction can be everything. It's about an addicted mind, a mind that's ill. And I think it's important to know that.

All right, let's see. Hope says, do you feel that drugs can cause a major mental illness like bipolar disorder. You know, I don't think that either one of us are qualified to go into that, but I would say that it's not unusual. You know, it isn't like an addiction's here, Mental illness is over there. Bipolar is in another room. I mean, so many times you see all these things combined in people, whether it's addiction and being mentally compromised. And it's hard to know or even why to know which came first.

All right, Betty says to me, there should be no shame.

Right? Absolutely. And that's why I think we all have to be so open and talk about this and realize and you know, all of us probably have someone who's struggling with someone they love with addiction. It's so important to get them support. Also, you know, I always come back to the three C's. They talk about an al Anon, you didn't cause it, you couldn't control it. You didn't, you couldn't cure it. You know, it's really important to remember those things, especially in grief. And you know, the interesting thing about, you say, about geography, probably my biggest audience that I lecture and teach are counselors. And I see different pockets in the US of, you know, most of them are really enlightened on mental illness, on addiction. And you get into certain geographical areas where they're like, no, no, they chose that, you know, and there's a lot of education needed for everyone on this. And you are doing amazing work.

Well, we just don't stop talking. We just got to keep talking and don't stop.

Right?

And that's how change happens.

Right? And I think as we go through the self blame to just remember those we didn't cause it, we couldn't control it, we couldn't cure it.

I also think it's so important, and I say this over again, if love could have saved them, they wouldn't have died.

Right? We say that all the time.

If love could have saved them, they wouldn't have died.

Cheryl, you're doing amazing work in Washington. You're doing amazing work in team sharing. You're doing amazing work in the world. Thank you so much and I appreciate what you're doing. Can you give out all your sites again just so everyone has them?

So if they want to check out our website, team sharinginc.org and you can go in there and click on chapters and find all our chapters. We have a siblings chapter as well.

21 state chapters. And if anyone is interested in a chapter that we don't have yet. Contact me. I'll get you started.

Great.

There's a lot of states that have grieving parents that just don't know where to go.

And we're there and, you know, I feel like. I know so many people have expressed this in a group, in our group, that you're in so much pain. It's not like you have to decide on one group. I hope that you know people who are dealing with addiction or in your group and other groups and here. Because we are all trying. We're all one.

Yeah. No, I. You know what? I have recommended other groups. I know that there's Christian groups out there. I've recommended different groups for everybody. And I would never. If it works for you and you need to leave, then that you do what works for you.

Join 10 groups if you need to join them. Whatever works for you.

Yeah. I always say there's no right way to grieve. There's no one model for grief. There's no one group for grief there. You know, everything's on the table.

Find what's a whole. Yeah, there's a whole bunch of amazing groups out there. A whole bunch.

Be your own grief expert. And just the idea that we can come together here twice a day, virtually hold each other's hands. And amazing people like you, Cheryl, show up. Volunteer your time to help people, to educate people. Thank you so much, all of you who are here. I just want to thank you for joining us. I'll be on around 1pm tomorrow. Come and see it. Tomorrow night. We're going to have the amazing Diane Gray, who is a hospice palliative care expert, bereaved mother. She is the one of the spokespeople for Elisabeth Kubler Ross foundation people. Next week, Tom Zumba is going to be here. Melissa Rivers.

Beth Segaloff will be here to talk about death of a fiance. So we're all here to help one another, to take care of one another too. If we can't physically be together, we can at least virtually be together. So if you know someone who's in pain, isolated, struggling, alone, please let them know about this group, Cheryl's group, let them know there's lots of different things. Thank you all for being here. I will see you tomorrow. I appreciate you so much. Thank you.

Thank you, Cheryl.

Thank you, David. And I look forward to seeing you at another seminar.

Me too. I'll look forward to maybe seeing you in Washington.

Yeah, absolutely.

Thank you. Okay.