David Kessler and Bradley Vinson on loss of a grandchild

So sorry this is late. We might switch it to another day, just since we're having so many issues. But I wanted to just come on. If you're looking for us. If Bradley joins us in a moment. I know this is so late back east. If Bradley joins us in a moment, we might continue. If not, we will reschedule him for another night. So let's see if we get him here in a moment. Give him another moment. Say hello if you're there. I know this is so late. Might be late for people, so hang on. Oh, here he comes.

Hey, there.

All right, we're already live, Bradley, so let me get you in.

Awesome. Awesome. Hey, there.

Oh, my gosh.

I email, so make noise and miss your email.

I was. I'm at the limit of my technology. All right, well, I'm glad we found each other, so at least folks can watch this in the replay. But I see some people coming on. So good to see you, my friend. It's been a long time, and I'm learning so much new technology in this world, as we all are. So as people. Come on, give them a moment. Tell me how. I mean, how are you doing in this crazy new world we're in?

Wow. Yeah. I find myself never claiming something to be the new normal. I think everything is what it is. It's just a part of our journey in life. Yeah, but. But the grief journey is becoming more and more complicated for people now, especially with. I call it the Rona because I don't want to, you know, scare the kids with the long name and stuff. And we try to make light of it, even though it's a serious thing. Yeah, but this. Yeah, this. This coronavirus is making things very complicated for Grievers in a general sense. And a lot of. We have a lot of shared grief now. And I was talking to a group of folks, I guess, last week when 9, 11 happened, you know, the world felt it, but New York really felt it. Right. Because they had to walk by the rubble every day and smell the smells and, you know, see the. The buildings that had fallen. So we had to feel that vicariously through New Yorkers. But this thing, the world is filling it, right? So you can say coronavirus to anybody and shelter into anybody, and they know what that feels like. And so it's a whole different kind of public grief going on right now.

Right, Right. So I see we got people coming on from New Jersey. Say hello. Let us know where you're from, where you're tuning in from. I see folks from New York. I'M just so impressed you guys are sticking with us so late. I'm so glad you're here. Those of you on the East Coast, I'm so sorry. For some reason, I just. It's been a. A challenging day. But I'm glad we're here. One of the things I always start with is I just, in the craziness of all this and technology and a pandemic, I. I just like for us all just to take a moment of silence, just to connect with those who are no longer physically here with us and just to remind us, at least remind me why we're doing all this. Why, you know, I always say our. Our love doesn't end when our loved one dies, so.

Right.

It's a moment for me to connect with those that I love. And I hope you will do that.

Thank you so much, all of you, for joining me in that.

Some folks who are watching may not be familiar with you and, and who you are in this world and how you got on this grief journey. Could you just share that with us for a few moments? And yes.

Well, I'm Bradley Vinson. I consider myself an advocate for the grieving community and helping them have a voice and also working with people that care for the grieving community. But what brought me here is May 11, 2016, we lost our granddaughter in a tragic accident. And as I was looking for ways to help my family get on the healing journey, I realized that there was just a lot of things missing for us and we couldn't find things. So that kind of pushed me into helping other people that are grieving. And I've been serving that community since late 2016. And I've learned through the time as I help people on their healing journey, I'm being helped. But that's pretty much what brought me here. I'm Bradley Vincent. I say I'm husband to my better 2/3 father and grandfather, but I'm also a grieving grandfather.

I wanted to take a moment and just, I went in and just for anyone who's looking for us, I wanted to go in and say we're here and we're live. You know, we often talk about so many forgotten grievers.

Children with forgotten grievers, siblings with forgotten grievers. We sure don't talk about grandparents enough.

Indeed. You are correct about that. Very correct.

So tell us what that experience. I'm not a grandparent.

You know, and I know for me, I will never be a grandparent for my younger son who died. So I'd love to hear from you, I talk about, we all become the grief experts. And like it or not, you have become an expert on being the grieving grandparent. So tell us what that's like, what's unique about it, how that feels to you, what it's about.

Yeah, I guess kind of what's unique about being a grieving grandparent is that, I mean, these days, how many people are even called grandparent, right? They're called Nana, and I'm called Paw Paw. You know, my wife is called B.B. you know, so you have these kind of this group of people that's kind of young and chipper a little bit, and they move around and they want to get around their grandkids, and we move to get close to our grandkids and kind of help our children co parent. And so you think you're going to have these golden years and that perceived second chance to get it right, you know, because now you got grandkids to spoil, and all that comes crashing down when a grandchild passes away, you know, and as a grandparent, you kind of. You're in that lost space because the child is not your child directly, right?

And so as far as the communal thing and the helping thing and a support thing, you're on the outskirts of that. Because even now, when I go and I speak about being a grieving grandparent, they say, oh, you know, we're sorry to hear that. How is her mother?

I was just gonna say, I bet that's the question you get. How's your daughter? How's your son?

And. And, and it's not competitive, obviously, because they are grieving too. But it's like, I'm talking about my grief, right? And in the. In the better scheme of things or in, as we believe in the process, our grandchildren will see us to the end of our lives, right? And we leave that legacy for them. But now we've buried a grandchild, and that throws a lot of things into just not ruin, but in just this weird area in this real space. Because now you're grieving a little child and you're grieving an adult child that's grieving. And so now you're not that, oh, let me come spoil everybody person now. You have to be this ultimate caregiver at levels of care, right? Because Alana has two brothers that were six and two years old when she passed away. And so now we're caring for little kids, right? And now we're caring for Alana's parents as our children. Alana had an uncle and an aunt that are adults and they're grieving, right. But then they're in a weird position because they have spouses or boyfriends or whatever else that didn't know Alana.

Right.

And so they're a grieving adult going into a relationship and the person that they now love has no idea about this hole in their heart and how do they relate? And so now with that kind of referee, so to speak, and all these adult relationships now, and it's already hard to parent an adult, but now we're parenting a grieving adult and cousins and all those things because we're the elder statement of the family, right? The grandparents are the people that you come to for wisdom. But what wisdom do I have about losing a grandchild? I'm learning like everybody else, but they're looking to us for that wisdom. And it's hard. It's a hard position to be in.

I also think about.

Everyone wants to spare their children from pain.

And as a grandparent.

It must be so brutal to be trying to help your child with their pain.

Without ignoring yours.

Right.

For us, because, you know, it's a lot of fear and a lot of angst because whenever a child dies, especially a small child, everyone looks to the adults. What did some adult do wrong?

Right?

And so now even in our grieving process, we're looking out to other adults and we're saying, no, it was an accident, we lost our granddaughter. So now you have to maneuver that.

Right?

And then it's like we have to care for our daughter and our son in law and they were estranged at the time, so she was kind of single parenting when it happened. But our granddaughter has a father, right. And so now the further you are from the birth mother.

The less support you get.

Right.

And so now I'm reaching out to my estranged son in law.

Seeing how he's doing.

Right.

And seeing how he's feeling and how he's getting along and. And do I tell my daughter I'm reaching out to her ex husband. You know, it's like all these things that come into grief and the day that it happened and I talk about being the elder statesman and thing because you're the grandparents. It was my role because of the family dynamic to now call all the family and let them know that Alana died. That's my role now because I'm the man who right in the hierarchy now because the husband's gone.

Right.

And so I'm now making all these phone calls to in laws and friends and my friends and our daughter's friends. And co workers and employer and telling that story over and over and over and over, and it's heartbreaking. And so now I'm trying to care for my daughter, care for my grandchildren, care for. And my wife is grieving, right? And don't even get into. Men and women grieve different, you know, and we're on the same journey as grandparents, but there is grief that she had that I couldn't even touch. Right. About a month in, my wife walks up to me and she says, I just realized the legacy of motherhood is now broken because Alana was our only granddaughter, right? And that's something as a man, I never would have thought of. Right? I was just. I just. I don't say just lost my granddaughter, but I lost a granddaughter, my wife lost the legacy of motherhood, right? And all these different things, right? And you still have to be in this position of the knowledgeable one and the rock and the. They're going to come to us when they need something. And there's just more and more and more layers of those things that you deal with as a grandparent. But I do want to. Want to circle back and say something about this. And I remember my wife and I gave this presentation a few years ago, and I was sitting there talking, there was a lot of grandparents and parents in the room, and it just fell on me to say this. And so many light bulbs came on when I said it. Now, you know, as a grandparent, it's kind of a joke that having grandkids is your second chance to get it right? They're that gift that you can now do all this mushy stuff with and spoil them and send them back home with. With, you know, with sore stomachs from eating all the junk food and stuff like that. But then the parent, the birth parent, you know, they look at their children as gifts to their parents, right? So now my daughter's gift to us is gone, and she has her own struggle dealing with the gift that I gave my parents is now gone. And there's a whole level of grief that comes with that because of all the things that we talk about in society, you know, the pedestal that you put grandparents on. And I gotta have kids because I gotta have grandkids for my mom and dad. And now one of them has died in the accident, right? And so think of what that parent is feeling now of that legacy that's broken that they brought into the world that's now gone. So there's. There's all these different struggles and all these different Tentacles into every little thing of the relationship. That's. That's just kind of crazy.

There's so many layers. There's so many layers. I even thought about, you know, what do you do when people say, oh, how many grandkids? You go, do you have kids? What do you.

I always say, I have four grandsons and one angel girl. Now, that's a tricky spot because most people see girls as angels anyway, right? Or princesses and stuff like that. But then I say, you know, well, we have one granddaughter that's in heaven. And because. And even now when I speak in groups, I always end my talks with, I am Bradley Benson, Alana's paw Paw. Because she can't say that anymore, right? And so I say that for her and I say her name and I, I represent her in everything that I do. So. But it's. It's hard, you know, because. And now my son is part of a blended family. So now we have two other granddaughters, right? And so now, you know, I love on them and they're my granddaughters now. They'll never fill that little spot that Alana had. And they never even knew Alana, right? But it's part of that thing where, you know, well, you had a cousin named Alana, here's her picture, and this is her birthday. We're gonna have a birthday party for. And you know, and you know, her brothers, you know, and you love them, but there's a girl that was in their life that's now gone, and you're not gonna fill that gap, but they might love on you extra now because there's no girls in their life, right? And so even explaining that thing to brand new girls in the family and how do you do that in a way where it's not, oh, this is weird, you know, kind of thing, because they're brand new to the family. They're part of my son's blended family, right? And their mom married into a family with grief. And there's all these things. And so my wife and I are the elder statesmen of that, right? To talk to our daughter in law and talk to our new granddaughters and the extended family about the grief of the family. We're the spokespeople for that. And it's hard. It's very hard. And we try to shield our daughter from a lot of it, you know, because things that are helping us heal might not even help her heal, right? We determined early on to lean into our grief and lean into our pain and speak about Alana and have her Pictures, not a shrine at the house, but have her pictures around and talk about it whenever possible. Have old pictures in the phone and videos. But her mom, she couldn't do that, you know, for the. I mean, maybe even at some points today, she can't, you know, But I know for sure, the first two and a half years or so, she couldn't stand to see a picture of Alana. Right. But then one Christmas, she came to visit and she took my wife's phone and she knows pictures of Alana are in the phone.

Right.

And she's scrolling through it, and we were all kind of holding our breath, and she got to an Alana picture and she looked and smiled and scrolled to the next one, looked and smiled, and when she could only see so many of them, she gave the phone back. And that's. That's her healing journey.

Right.

And. But we were prepared that, okay, if she breaks down, we're going to support that. Right. If she doesn't break down, we're not going to say, oh, you didn't break down. Right. So we have to. You have to maneuver that with an adult a whole different kind of way, you know?

Right. I think.

So many things you would just deal with that. I think it would be so easy for us not to see. And it's one more area where there's just insult to injury. I noticed people have been commenting, they love that you use her name. You know, I always say people tell me your loved one's name because I hate when we refer to them as a loss.

Right.

My son was more than a loss. My son is David. You know, she's Alana. She's not a loss.

Right.

So I. I love how you use her name, and I know people are really responding to that, and I appreciate it.

I love saying her name. So. Yeah. And, yeah.

You know, I'm also taken with your story.

That you understand. And I think this is so important. Your wife's grief doesn't look like yours. Right. And your daughter isn't looking at pictures the way you did. You know, there's this tendency to look at everyone who's grieving differently and go, what's wrong with them? Or why aren't they doing it? Or she's got to look at pictures. And so how do you do that? Where you come to your wisdom that yours is different than theirs and that's okay.

Quite honestly, I think it just came by the seat of my pants, just living it because. And it was so funny. I mean, because. Right. You know, because she has two brothers now, 10 and 5, and they're grieving in their own way.

Right?

And so it was very important for us to build a safe space for people to be able to talk about their grief. And I remember very early on, Alana's older brother, he was six at the time. Bryce. He was six when she. When she passed away. And he would walk up to me and he would say, paw. Paw. You thinking about Alana? And even if I wasn't, I would say yes, because to me, that was him saying, I'm thinking about Alana. Right. He would walk up to me and he would say, papa, are you sad right now? I'd say, yes, because I knew he wanted to talk about even at the age of six, and he. He was feeling something, Right? Right. And I would say, you know, pawpaw is really sad because I miss Alana. My heart is broken. I cry for Alana. And I would tell him that to normalize what he was feeling, to let him know that sadness is natural. Because you loved Alana, right? And. And we just kind of built this atmosphere and where it's not, you know, doom and gloom and we're all mushy, falling out, crying every day kind of thing, but it was a safe space, right, to grieve, right? And I would cry in front of them. I wouldn't do the, you know, falling out in the. You know, in the middle of the floor. I would do that in my closet, you know, But I wouldn't. I.

You're like, I don't do it, but I do do it there. Getting you to. You know.

And so I would cry away, whatever.

It may be, right?

Because I. I don't want. I don't want to scare the kids with it and things like that. When you kind of have that cathartic, right? Cathartic. Just laid out on the floor, crying. That still happens, right? But when I. When I'm. When I'm feeling something that I might be watching a TV show or something, and the boys are sitting with me, and I'm getting kind of some kind of way, I don't leave. And if they say, what's wrong, Papa? I'm like, well, I'm thinking about Alana. That made me think about Alana. And then it might spawn a conversation. Oh, I was thinking about Alana last night, Papa. And I dreamed about her two days ago. And so now we have that atmosphere where it's not. Grief is part of the healing journey. Grief is not this thing that we dread that we may never get over.

I Love that.

It's part of the healing journey.

Grief is part of the healing journey.

Yes. And so we just kind of go that way and so building that safe space. My grandson Bryce, you know, he talks about it. We. And it was, it was. So I think what helped us very much early on is we went to counseling very early on. My wife and I are kind of lifelong learners, right? And so when we, when this thing happened.

It was like, okay, we need to learn how to do this. And so it's like. Because we're just lifelong learners, right? So we went to counseling very early. And the first counselor we spoke with, he's now a great friend of mine. His brother died when he was 2 years old. Now, this was back in the 50s. And he told us, he said, my parents acted like my brother didn't exist, but I knew somebody was missing.

Right.

He said, I didn't have a chance to properly grieve until I was 30.

And we took that to heart with Alana's little brother at the time, he was 2 years old. And we knew that he knew his sister was gone. And that was, you know, that was hammered home for us with this counselor that revealed that to us. And so we talked about Alana in front of, in front of him and talked about her being, you know, gone and, you know, yes, you won't be able to see her again, but she lives in your heart. And we would kind of talk about it and things like that, right? It's because we just wanted to acknowledge that someone he loved and played with even the day before she died is not here.

Right.

We were not going to act like she didn't exist. So even to a two year old psyche and what he can understand and not understand, he knew somebody wasn't at the house, right. He doesn't know what death means, but he knew somebody wasn't at the house.

Right.

And so we had to acknowledge, yes, she's not here. Right. We didn't talk about death and you know, because he doesn't understand that. But yes, Alana is not here. Right. And as he got older, we're talking more and more about it.

So tell me. We had to. This is something, you know, I've struggled with and I wonder if it's something that you've had to struggle with.

Not a grandparent, as I said, but when my older son would come over, if it was up to me, and he's 25, if it was up to me, every visit we would discuss David. I mean, he's the one I want to talk to most about my loss and his loss or shared loss. But I realized, oh, if every time he comes over, he's feeling like he's in a grief counseling session, he may not come over as much. And I had to really sit back and go, you know, I'm. I'm. I'm going to go there whenever I want with my counselor, with my friends, with my support. But when I'm with him, I might need to let him take the lead. Maybe he wants to talk about his new girlfriend without me going, you know, David's never going to have a girlfriend. I mean, you know, I can there every time, and it. And I want to find that fine line. Believe me, the moment he says something about his brother, I am there. Yeah, right, right. Do you have. You had to deal with that?

Yes. And mine is. Is, well, let me first say this. Both of my parents are still alive, so think about that.

Wait, so that's great Grandparents.

Yes.

Wow.

So think about that. Okay. So now I'm starting to serve the grieving community, and I'm doing these little Facebook live videos called Good grief and stuff like that. And out of the blue, my dad calls me.

And he says, are you all right, son? And I say, yeah. I said, well, you know, why would you ask? Daddy said, well, I see you putting all this stuff on Facebook about Alana, and, you know, and I just want to see if you're okay. I said, yeah. And I said, you know, I'm helping people, and it's helping me, you know, and so I'm trying to ask him, but not ask him, you know what I mean? And I'm like, you know, and it's helping me, and, you know, and no, but I'm fine, dad. You know, we're doing good and we're working through it. Then I just came out and asked him, I'm like, well, how are you doing?

And. And just, you know, kind of abridged version of it. Basically, he was saying he wants to hold on to his pain because that shows how much he loves Alana right? Now, who am I as a son to tell him that that's not healthy or that's not good? So there's that dynamic, right? Who am I as a grief expert now to tell him that might not be the healthiest way to handle this, right? And. But we just kind of start having this conversation, and it's like, you know what? That's my dad's journey, right? And I would tell people early on in my grief that I'm in the Deep throes of grief right now. And sadness is up the mountain from where I am. But then I would think about it. My parents may never literally outlive their deep grief.

And that tears my heart out, right, that they may never get to that part of the journey where they can smile about Alana's pictures and talk about Alana and laugh and they may not never get there. Right now they've had some joyous moments. We've talked about Alana stuff, and they laughed about. We used to play she had dirt head to toe in one of these family reunion pictures and stuff like that. And my dad will now actually.

Let his other little nieces and stuff, the little ones, the younger ones, and the grand. The other grandkids from, you know, other siblings play with him. Because after Alana passed away, Alana was his girl, you know. You think Alana loved me? She loved my dad.

And so she had that special space with him, and he wouldn't let anybody else have that space. So after she passed away, it was like, other little girl, stay away from me. You know, he wouldn't. He wouldn't snuggle with him and stuff like that. Now he's starting to do that more, you know, and so I can tell that's part of his healing process. But I always want to talk about her. My mom will always talk about her. My dad is kind of on the fringes. He'll say something every now and then. Now, on the flip side, Alana's mother or daughter, right? It's kind of.

If she doesn't bring it up, we don't.

Right.

Until we can really see where she is in her healing journey, in the house with the boys, between each other. A lot of times we talk about her without talking because things will happen because she loved pickles. Pickles were her thing before she passed away. And she would ask people, do, do you like pickles? And she would start giggling. I guess it was how she said it. She liked how she said it. So we'll get a sandwich from somewhere, and there's a pickle spear, and it's like, okay, Alana. And we'll all just kind of giggle about it, right? And so we talk about it without talking about her kind of thing. And. But it was this thing that I came up with that I call the 1000 rule. And I would tell people, you're 100% in control of making people aware of your grief. You're 0% in control of how they respond to it.

So when I want to talk about Alana and I'll bring her up and if they don't want to talk, that's cool. We can talk about football now. Right. But I want you to know, whenever you want to talk about her, I'm ready. And so that kind of just had to be the new way of doing it. Okay, Dad, I know you're having a hard time, you don't really want. But you know what? Whenever you want to talk about Alana, I'm cool, daughter, I'm cool.

It's. It's very wise. And there's a lot to even think about there. That on one hand, you know, certainly the grief expert in me, the grief specialist, always wants to tell people, you know, that that fear we have, that if we win, it's time in our own way, at our own time, to release some of the pain. When that gets released, we won't lose our connection.

Right?

We'll be connected in love. And you have to honor how everyone else is doing their grief because we want them to honor our grief the way it is. And the other thing that's really tricky. I don't know how old your parents are, but sometimes people will say to me, I just can't get my mother. She just won't get over my father dying or get over this loss. And she's 85 and I just want her to be happy again and all that. And sometimes I have to say.

This might just be her journey.

And not that you're ever too old to find peace, but we also have to be careful with people, that there's one thing worse. You know, I get the concept we want people to find peace. We want them to be out of pain. But sometimes if we do that poorly, we. We can be making them feel like they're grieving wrong. And I'll tell people, look, the one thing your 90 or 85 year old mother doesn't need you to do is make her feel like she's doing grief wrong.

Right, Right.

You don't want to do that either. We want to accept people in their grieving journey wherever they are.

And there's a little, what they call powdered butt syndrome too. If they change your diaper, you need to know your role in that position with your parents when you start trying to tell them stuff, you know?

Right.

And so. Yeah, and so, yeah, but it's like I'm always available and I. Whatever's healthy for them, if it's not physically hurting them or mentally hurting them, that's their journey, you know, and just always be available to Walk alongside them. Wherever they'll let you walk alongside them, you know.

All right, we have a couple of comments here I just want to mention to you. Rachel says I lost my. Rachel says I lost my grandma on February 27th. I miss her every day. She was my best friend. So she's honoring those, the wonderful grandparents in our life. And sue says my grandson died three weeks ago. So what do you say to someone who's newly bereaved.

A grandparent like that? Obviously it's heartbreaking.

I, I would first sorry for your loss. And.

It'S, it's something that you would wish on no one.

And I know that at the layers of it, to make sure you look after yourself not in a selfish way, but in the process of caring for your adult children. Care for yourself some too. Give yourself some space to be human and hurt. Don't be the super caregiver because it's easy for us to swoop in and try to take all the pain away from everyone.

Right.

Because we're just, you know, they don't make, they don't make a lot of T shirts for moms and dads. They make a lot of T shirts for grandparents.

Right, Right. I never thought about that. But it's.

Yeah. So we're those, we're those special people and sometimes we take on that extra burden and forget ourselves. You know, at this point, it's okay to be a little selfish in your care as you care for your adult children and possibly siblings of the lost grandchild, but it's, it's a hard journey. I don't want to, I don't want to patronize a grandparents grief.

We can't make it better. We can't take it away. Right.

Can just wait and let your children grieve in a way that's healthy for them.

It's almost like parenting an adult. You have to kind of go into friend mode a little bit. So treat your children as if you were a really good friend.

And let them grieve as adults. Don't make them your children, little children again. Right. Let them be adults and work themselves through the process, but be there for them and be ready for when they, you know, when they need you.

One thing, when I went to, I think it was the first year that I attended the Compassionate Friends when we met their national conference. One of the things I went to see what siblings wanted to tell their parents and it's interesting they talked about at any age. They don't want to see their parents breaking down. They don't want to see their parents crying and all that. So I think about how for our adult children, too many times they may feel that way. And I could see the same way. I feel like with my 25 year old son that I want to share the grief with him. I try not to make him a grief counselor. But you would want to do the same. And I think it's so important for grandparents to make sure they're getting grief support elsewhere than from their children who have had the loss too.

Right.

Because your grief deserves dedicated support.

Indeed. Indeed. And I will say this. My daughter, it broke her, it breaks her heart. I'll use present tense because I know it does. And we talk about it even now. It breaks her heart that we are grieving.

Right.

They would prefer to grieve alone, but they know that the loss of their child is also our loss and they wish that we, that we wouldn't be grieving alongside them. They wish that they didn't. We weren't part of that package, but we are. And so I can see where a sibling will say that, that I don't want to be my parents caregiver. Not caregiver, but counselor. I think some of that is even. So let's take a parent directly losing a child scenario, right?

And the child had siblings. There's now a fractured security, right. The armor now has chinks in it. So this super person now has fractures and that's hard for a child to handle. Like wait a minute, this person cries. This person's not super. And they can't push over building with one hand and all this kind of stuff. But now that, that's still the same thing as adults. So now I've lost a child and my parents are grieving. These super people, the people that I would borrow money from and they helped me figure out what college to go to and my dad would change the oil in my car. All these super people are now broken like me.

Right.

I can't handle that. Right. And so there's a sense of that too, that we have to be aware of and get help. I would tell grandparents because, you know, I think everybody has a little tinge of this in, in their spirit not to directly go for help. And we give this scenario and my action, my grandson uses it when he talks to other little kids. He said, if you fall off your bicycle and break your arm, would you wait for it to get a little better before you go to the hospital? Nobody would. They would go straight to the hospital right then. So why is it when you have a broken heart you want to wait until it feels a little bit better before you get help.

And I'll tell you one of the lessons. For me, after 40 years of working with people in grief, working with parents, and I was someone, I would always. No different than saying, you know, feel free to grab a drink of water. I would be someone who'd say, go to a grief group, call a counselor. Like it was the easiest thing to do.

Right.

And I think you and I have talked about this. After my son died.

To show up at a compassionate friends group. I literally. I live in Los Angeles. I literally driving there, I was like, oh, there's too much traffic. I can't go right.

I get there. Oh, there's nowhere to park. I can't go. And I forced myself to go in with a cap on.

My glasses on. Without my contacts at the time, my books were three feet away, and no one knew it was me. And then to go to grief counseling, I mean, because of realizing how hard it was to show up for myself in grief. Now when I tell people to go to counseling, which very hard to do, unless you're lucky, you've got someone who can do it virtually right now, a grief group. And we can't do that either. When people show up in those groups. Now, I want to applaud when they walk in, because I get now how hard it is to show up.

You're exactly right.

Hard it is to show up.

Yep.

Someone says, my goodness, they've had a death to murder. I'm working on getting someone to join us who knows a lot about that to help. Our heart breaks for all of you. So, Bradley, tell us, we're going to wrap up here now. First of all, I'm going to get you back on. Since we were. But tell me, anyone who's looking to know more about you and your work, how can they find you?

Yeah, the easiest way to find me is just by my website, bradleyvinson.com just my name spelled out.com. i'm on Facebook by my name, Bradley Vinson. I'm actually doing little Facebook live videos called Good Grief with Bradley Benson. Little snippet videos, one little single topic, and just kind of talk through some things with grief. But that's who I am right now. Just out here trying to, you know, help. Help grievers have a voice and help those that are caring for us.

Help us in a better way. Right. Connect with us in a better way. So I'm kind of working both sides of that fence and doing what I can to help people heal as we're healing. So thank you.

Thank you. And. And I don't know if you're still interested in doing it, but another topic I'd love to take on with you, discussing grief movies.

Oh, wow. Yes.

So that would be a great session. We could have movies and grief.

Yes, that would be awesome. I just told a friend about that today. He reviewed the new cartoon movie Onward.

Right.

I don't know if you've seen it. It's a Pixar movie. And I told him, I said, you know what? It's about time for me to do a video about Disney grief. So whenever you're ready, let's talk about grief and movies.

Every Disney movie, there is death. I mean, and, you know, it's no accident Walt Disney dealt with grief. So it's no accident that there's something culturally in there, that it's planted in their movies. Thank you so much. I. I just so appreciate you speaking and raising our awareness about grandparents and the heartbreak that they go through. So thank you for being here. We'll be seeing you again.

Oh, yeah.

So appreciate you having me, friend.

All right, thank you all. Good night, everyone.

See you soon. We'll be back on at 1pm tomorrow Pacific time, so check that out and see you all soon.