David Kessler and Kim Goldman on the death of a sibling and grief after a murder

Yes. Anyway, I'm going to hop on the page, too, just to see if I can confirm we're actually here and live. I have my friend Kim Goldman with me. Hey, Kim. Hi. We were just discussing. I love what you said. There is no vanity. What did you said?

There is no vanity in Covid. Yeah, this is it.

I apologize for that.

There's nothing to apologize. We're amongst friends here.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I didn't manage to put mascara on today, so. But no, I didn't brush my hair, brush my teeth, but that's it.

That's good. That's. That's what's important. All right, let me just make sure we're broadcasting here, that I can at least see that we're here, too. Hopefully. Say hello. All right, I see someone saying hello from New York, so we must be here. Let's see. Yay. There we are. Good, good, good. All right. They can see us. All right. Very good. So Sandra says hello from New York. Lisa says hello. Sandra says we look great. All right, perfect. Come on, say hello to us. Let us know where you're from. If this is your first time on. I give people some time to find us.

All right. Lisa's from Pennsylvania. I joke. Kim. I say this is like Romper Room.

That, like, we just aged ourselves.

I know. So I see Terry from Indiana and Judy from New Jersey and Cheryl from Pennsylvania. Shannon's here from Connecticut. Diane says, thank you, David and Kim, you're much appreciated. Betty from Ohio, she says she loved the podcast.

Oh, thank you.

You look great. All right, let's see. Lori's from Atlanta. I see Carla from Georgia. Lisa from Delaware. Karen. Pennsylvania. Susan. East Hampton. Calgary. New Orleans. Wonderful. Bay area, Maryland.

All right, Australia. What time is it in Australia? It must be. Not sure. Wilmington. All right. Hey, Regina from Indiana. Brenda from Wilmington. Wonderful. Everyone, I'm glad you're finding us. We'll give it one more minute. All right. Beth says she needs to know how to get in the group. Beth, you're in the group. Just so you know, if you're here, you're in the group. Beth is like me. I'm always trying to get into a club I'm always already in. Cynthia says she's from Prescott. All right. Constance from Wisconsin. Hey. Suzanne. All right. Michelle from Wichita. Sherry from Tennessee. Very good. Oh, there's people coming in from all over. Well, welcome. So for those of you that maybe it's your first time joining us, what we do is I go live every day at 1:00pm Pacific Time, 4:00pm Eastern, and we Do a check in. We do a different topic every day, answer some of your questions. And then in the evening I have a wonderful volunteer guest who comes on tonight. I'm so thrilled that Kim Goldman is here with us and she's going to be talking about her experience and some things she's learned along the way in this unfortunate world we end up traveling in called grief.

So whether you're been struggling for years or you're newly bereaved or dealing with COVID you're all welcome and so glad you're here. So one of the things I like to do at the start is just take a moment of silence. You know, we're here because someone we loved has died. Some of us more than one person. And I just like to take a moment of silence just to send love to that person because they're. While we. Why we're here.

Thank you so much. You know, whether you believe in an afterlife or not, I always say, you know, our, our love still lives within us for them and they live in our heart. The afterlife, whatever you may believe, you can believe any of those things to be here. There's no one belief we have. So as I was thinking about different aspects of that. Kim is just a wonderful resource in the world.

Many of us, most of us know Kim's world, unfortunately that Kim's brother Ron.

Was murdered. So Kim has had to deal with grief, public grief, sibling loss, supporting a father, dealing with it in the family. You know, I also thought of her because.

We'Re seeing statistics on our screen every night of deaths and it's important to remember those are people with families behind them. So Kim, thank you so much for giving your time and being here.

Thank you for asking, David.

So tell us just a little bit about your world. I mean we kind of, you know, I want to make sure. Tell us what you would want us to know versus sort of what we have all heard over the years or think over the years or.

Huh. Okay.

I.

I think you know what? I am a. How old am I? My God, I'm 40, 48. I'm a single mom to a almost 17 year old son. I run a nonprofit organization that does provides free mental health treatment to teenagers. I've been doing that since 2005.

Unfortunately, the last couple weeks I had to shut my agency down because of what's been going on. So it's been. Obviously it's very hard for me because I've been at the helm of this organization for the last 15 years and know the good work that we're doing. And so it's a big loss right now to not have my job, but to not have the work that I've been doing and committed myself to for so long and to know how many kids are suffering.

But when I am doing that, it's pretty amazing work to get to work with so many young people who are looking to be healthy and strong and who are dealing with grief and loss and substance abuse and domestic violence and sexual identity issues and depression and suicide. So I know there's a huge need right now. So to not be able to fill it is really hard for me. But I write, I speak, I have my podcast, which, you know, I adopted a puppy today, so tell me how many weeks. He's seven weeks old. I don't know what he is. He's a mutt, but he's got, like, a smushy face. He's super soft. He's, like, chocolatey brown. I think there's, like, a lab in him, and he's got, like, the big, chunky legs. Like, he's a smushy dog. And he has been completely covered in slobber by my other dogs. My. I have a pit mix and a lab lab sheph sheltie mix. And so they have completely smothered him in lick. So it's been fun. This. This quarantine has been super hard. Harder than I thought. I don't think any of us could have anticipated what it would be like, but it just. It's been. It's been really emotional.

I've been letting myself have anxiety. I've been letting myself, can I cuss on here? Not that I do, but, like, sit in my shit a lot, which has been okay because I know I can get myself out of it. But this has been hard. It's been. It's been hard. I'm in a new relationship, and so we've been spending time together despite the quarantine, and so that's been beautifully wonderful and hard, too. So there's just a lot.

As long as you're shaking hands.

Yeah. Yeah.

Huh? No handshaking.

You know, you and I met during your podcast, Confronting O.J. o.J. And I. I. You're. You're one of those people that, when I met you, I just fell in love with you. You. You have the sweetest energy, and you have a kindness that has come through all you've been through, and. And I love how you honor your brother and how committed you are to his memory, staying alive.

And, you know, it's interesting to me, one of the Things I just noticed when I was looking online to go grab a picture of you.

People like to portray you angry.

Yeah.

And it's fascinating to me because the Kim I know.

Is a very well rounded person who has lots of colors in her life. But it's interesting to see how they want to reduce you to that.

I think it's easier to reduce me to an emotion like anger or mad or being pissed off because.

It'S easier for someone else to compartment, compartmentalize me that way than it is to just let me be this version of me which is, you know, I appreciate the kindness comment, but I'm, I'm, I'm emotional, I'm feisty, I'm mad, I'm sensitive, I'm vulnerable, I'm strong, I'm, I'm erratic, I'm stable. Like I'm human.

Right.

And so, and because, you know, you and I have talked a lot about grief and, you know.

Takes on a lot of different colors and it takes on a lot of different shapes and sizes, which allows me to be fluid in it. So if you. But if other people are uncomfortable in that, it's easier to. She's mad. She's mad. And then we can be angry at her for being mad rather than open our hearts up and be sensitive and supportive to someone who's, who's struggling or needing love or compassion. And that's been hard for me because I've been, you know, like you said, I've been reduced to being this angry person. And then there's a whole bunch of stereotypes and misconceptions about me that get attached to that. And that's hard because I'm actually not mad all day long. And P.S. even if I was, I'm entitled to.

Be.

You know, it's okay. I have good reason to be mad.

And I think, you know, look, your life has been an extreme. I think in some ways we do want to reduce people in grief to sort of one emotion. This one's crying all the time, that one's angry. I mean, I think that does happen.

It allows the other person to not have to do much. Right. So.

If you allow someone to just be who they are and be open to all of their experience, then you have to rise to the occasion to be in receipt of that. And so the people that want to reduce me to being one thing or another, that's about them, that's not about me. And I know that 20 some odd years later.

But I know that when people want to put me in that category, that I need to try to be a little bit more patient and loving and kind towards them so that they can learn how to let me in this be okay. So that they then become better humans for other people that are in need.

Right, Right.

What would you say to someone who does have a loved one who's died and is one of those statistics on TV and every night that's just getting broadcast and one more person.

You know, we.

We experience that.

A little bit. When my brother was killed.

In the vein that my brother was reduced to nothing. My brother was the friend or he didn't have a name, he didn't have an identity.

And that was really hard because for me, he was larger than life. Right. He was bigger than anything. The most important person in my life next to my dad. And I was screaming at the TV every night that he's not just a number, he's not just a statistic. He has a family name is Ron. I mean, we named our book after that because we were so frustrated that people kept forgetting that he had a whole family and a whole life ahead of him and a whole family that was left behind. My heart breaks. I'll be honest with you. I stopped watching the news.

It's too hard for me.

It's too anxiety provoking. So I choose not to. But I do see the statistics every day. And I just keep thinking that's just that many more people that are in pain, that are struggling. I saw in our group, you know, people that are talking about their loss, you know, people that are losing their life to the, to the virus. And I just.

I'm speechless over it because there's. How did we get here?

A.

But beyond that, the fact that it's. We're just talking to people in numbers, you know, they're just being dismissed as casualties and numbers. And I wish we were doing more to honor. I think that there was a newspaper that started listing, and correct me if I'm wrong, that was listing obituaries or names of all the victims, people that have lost their life. So please correct me if I. If I'm misspeaking, but I thought that was beautiful. There was pages of it. I think we need to be doing more to honor the families that are left behind in the wake of all of this.

And you know, I was saying to someone, the numbers got adjusted up yesterday. 10,000 and. Which is just shocking. And I thought about, that's.

10,000. That is. I'm so bad at math. But let me think about it. That's. That's a hundred planes crashing In a day?

Yeah, it's a hundred.

You know, imagine 100 planes crashed. What we would do.

Well, what has bothered me, you know, about the. About the reporting of it, and I don't want to get political about it at all, but is the people that want to bicker about the reason that someone died.

Right.

Like you can't say someone died from COVID because they had a heart problem. I'm thinking, why are we minimizing the loss, regardless? Regardless, Right. Like you and I have talked about this too, that I think that we have. We're so desensitized when it comes to loss in this country that we just. We're so cavalier with throwing it around as if it really doesn't make a difference. And, oh, this person died. Like we're just so blah about it. And, and like you just said, there's so many people that get left.

Try to visualize these are, you know, how many people these are.

Right.

We also have a lot of people on here who have had loved ones who have been murdered.

What would you say to them? What have you learned about that experience? I mean, we talked about. Even the word bereaved means to be robbed. And when someone's murdered, my goodness, you are robbed of that person. For some, intentionally. For some not intentionally.

How does that differ from others to you? Or what would you tell us about that that we may not know?

I think.

I think what I learned.

I learned that it was okay to be mad about it. I was mad at my brother for a while, and I didn't understand that because I kept thinking, why would my brother. Why didn't he run? You know, why was he in that situation? Why did he do that? Why didn't he think of me and protect himself so that he could come home to me and my dad? I mean, I remember having feelings of anger towards him.

And then I was mad at myself. How could I think that way? I mean, I mean, you just. You chase yourself around a lot in your head and all of the what ifs, you know, they still torment me 20 some odd years later. But I think I allowed my. What I learned is to give myself permission to feel all of it. And there's no right or wrong way to do this. There's no time limit on this, despite what people wanted put on us. You know, you should be over it by now. You shouldn't be so emotional by now at this point. Oh, my God, you're still talking about it. Um, at least in the Jewish religion, you know, we have a year and then we do the unveiling, and then, you know, when a year's up, you know, technically, you're supposed to be done grieving at that point. I really struggled with that concept for a long time, so I've just learned to give myself permission to just feel it when I feel it. And some days I need to put on a braver face, and so I need to figure out how to move through it a little bit quicker to get to the next place I have to be. And other days I just sit in it because.

I want to. Sitting in my grief sometimes gets me the closest to my brother. And I stopped letting other people tell me how it was supposed to look and trusted myself and trusted my own process because that's the only one that I have. So I think giving myself permission to just let it be what it is is the best gift that I gave to myself and that I can give to others.

And, you know, I experienced a little of that when I was doing your podcast, that people would go, just like you said, oh, my gosh. Still. And my response is, I would say to them, so how did you deal with it when, you know, the person who would say, still? I would say, well, how did you deal with it when your brother was murdered? Oh, my brother was murdered. And I would go, oh, well, how did your brother die? And they'll go, oh, my brother didn't die. And I would go, so you haven't really experienced anything you're judging her for? Because I can be feisty, too. It's like, really, we're gonna sit and judge her when all your family members are happy and intact? Yeah, that drove me a little crazy. The other thing that I've learned in sort of being connected with you is just how.

The whole thing about your brother was in the wrong place at the wrong time. And I always go, excuse me, her brother wasn't in the wrong place at the wrong time. The killer was in the wrong place at the wrong time doing something the killer shouldn't have been doing.

Right.

Blaming the victim happens in murder.

And I think that. And you know, and I know that there are other people that have experienced this, you know, that they're. They're the justification that people want to put on. My brother's murder is fascinating to me. You know, if he wouldn't have been there, if he wouldn't have been fooling around with a married woman, which he wasn't. But as if anybody has the right to take someone else's life. And if anybody could find a rationalization for It. It's shocking to me. And there are people that do. There are people that. That minimize my loss, that minimize my brother's death, because they don't agree with who I think the killer is. And so I. I go round and round because.

This is when. This is when the only part that I. That separates me in some ways, because it was on television, right? And people get an opportunity to look inside my life in this regard. And so, because people had such a strong opinion about the guilt or innocence that was put upon me, and therefore the judgment about how I live my life, how I live my. How I honor my brother, how I do anything, becomes fodder for people. And that part has added. Because.

A lot of people get to have their grief in private. Even if I wanted to, that wasn't available to me. So my grief was challenged, my grief was judged. The loss. People come at me that they'll say, you know, your dad wasn't even talking to your brother when he died. How could he be so sad? Which, again, not true. But to criticize the way that we have honored or paid tribute or have suffered, that's like a whole other. That's like a whole other game. And that part has been really hard. And I don't want to retreat because this kind of connection is so important, and this kind of comfort and support is so needed. And so I don't want to retreat into my corner, which would be super easy to do that. But this is important to me and important to others, and I think that, you know, we do find love and support, and I think that's necessary when you feel so isolated. I can feel isolated all day long, and I don't want to. So I choose this, and I choose to put my grief out there because I think it's helpful to connect with other people, and I get chastised for that. So I got to have a thick skin in that world.

And, you know, grief is an isolating experience in general. And now people are isolated in their isolation. And I think of you that you were isolated in your grief while you were around so many people, that you didn't get that time alone. You didn't. You weren't granted time to just grieve. Ron.

Yeah, and that, you know, I didn't really realize that that was happening, to be honest with you, until a couple years later. I mean, I. For those that are old enough to know, you know, there were two trials with our family, and it went on for a long time, and the media was everywhere, but it wasn't until the trials ended and the media went away, that I was suddenly like, huh, wait, what's happening? I was left alone for the first time in a long time. And that was when the grief really, really hit me, because I was busy every day. You know, I had a purpose. I went to court, I had a job.

I was the keeper of our family. Like, I had somewhere to go.

And then I didn't anymore. And then I was left to pick up the pieces, and I was left to start my life over and to figure out what I was going to do with the next, you know, however many years of my life. I moved away from home. I moved out of, you know, my apartment. I left school. I left my relationship. I had a cat and a suitcase. I didn't have a job anymore. Like, I. So it really, really hit me a couple years later. And so that took a long time to even work through that. And I'm still working through it, but.

And I think, you know, for anyone who's had a loss.

You just have to have a million moments and milestones in your life where you go, oh, this would have been a moment for Ron to be here. And, yeah, anyone in grief sort of knows that. That, you know, you can't put that in a box and say, oh, that happened in another decade. He's gone.

You know, I. And I wonder if other people experience this. I think.

I have moments all day long, they're fleeting, right? That I don't even know that I recognize them as the moments anymore. And I hope that makes sense.

All day long, it's like my brother's just. He's just in it. He's just in the moments with me, right? And so things will happen, you know, with my job or with my son, who, you know, is 16 and a half, and my God, like, the. The similarities between the two of them, sometimes I have to look away because it's hard. It's a little jarring. They never met. My son has mannerisms like his uncle, which is weird. You know, sometimes my dad will call my son Ron. And so it's just like, all day long, stuff happens, right? And so I. Sometimes I take a moment to stop and just honor it and smile. And other times I'm just like, oh, this is comforting. And then there are moments where it really pisses me off that I don't get to share those big moments with my. With my brother. I don't get to share this with him. This is such a unique experience. I don't get to hop on the phone with him and, you know, share silly TikTok videos, which, by the way, is what I do at 3 o' clock in the morning when I can't sleep. But I don't get to share my life with him anymore. And I've settled into it a little bit, but I still, like, there's like jolts of like a surge of energy that I'm just like, ugh. I just. And it goes back to the what ifs. It goes back to the yearning and the what ifs. And sometimes. Sometimes it's palpable and other days it's. It's like, okay, this is. This is. This is what I'm in for.

So I. I don't know if other people experience that.

And it's hard for people in my life to understand how that's just part of my daily stuff. And it doesn't mean I have to stop what I'm doing. It doesn't mean I always need a hug. It doesn't always mean that I need a therap. It just means it is part of. It is part of my existence.

And we just make room for it.

Right? And I also think that I don't know how old Ron would be now. How old would he be? 50.

50, maybe 51. That she was born in 68. I don't know. What year are we in.

To know Rob? In his 30s? In his 40s? I mean, who would he have been? All that is a road you never get to experience.

And you deserve that. And he deserved it. And I think the idea that, you know, he was a character in someone else's story.

Is just so devastating. And I think, you know, murder robs us not of that person only, but of that person and their future.

I think.

Not being able to say goodbye.

I share this story openly.

I hadn't talked. My brother died June 12th. Our last conversation was Mother's Day of that year. We always would talk on Mother's Day and kind of commiserate because our mom left when we were young. So Mother's Day was just a chance for us to just BS about whatever's going on, but just kind of a moment to connect that we still had each other. The weekend.

After he passed or that he was killed was Father's Day weekend, and we were all supposed to be together. So I knew that I was going to see him and that we would reconnect. And so I think there's like a regret that I feel that I didn't call him again in between or that I didn't say goodbye. Or that, you know, did I tell him in that last conversation that I loved him? I mean, I think there's a lot of that.

And again, I work through that a lot. But I still feel that way in my life sometimes because I just wonder. And so I'm very careful now that I always make sure I say I love you. I always make sure that I pick up the phone when I want to. I always send a text when I'm thinking of someone, because I can't do that again. So.

I think I feel robbed of those things. I feel robbed of a future that my son didn't get to have with his uncle and me. And my only brother just sucks to substitute.

And.

I haven't had anyone murdered, but it just looks like.

And I think this is true of every. Anyone in grief, but certainly of murder, that your life has just been given a heaviness, that there was a care for you that didn't get to mature and grow and have this carefree, light life that maybe you would have had.

Yeah. And I. And I appreciate you acknowledging that, because I think.

I think I have trained myself.

To not let that get in my brain, because it feels selfish to me. Right. To be thinking of myself and what was I?

For a long time, I wanted to just make sure that I was focused on my brother. Right. That I can endure this pain. I mean, what my brother endured the night that he was stabbed to death, it's insurmountable. You can't even fathom with that. So I can deal with this pain on this side. And so I think I cheated myself out of what you just expressed, knowing that my life was changed and knowing that I didn't have my big brother. I think I was so consumed with making sure that I wasn't making it about me, that I missed some of those opportunities to make it about me so that I could heal.

And so that has taken a long time to kind of let that be part of my healing and my grief, too, because I feel like I want to be stronger than that. I could figure this out. And then I have those moments where I just want my big brother. I just want to hug. I just want to hear him call me squirt. I just want to be that little girl.

And I forget that it's okay to let that be part of this, because everyone tells you have to be strong. You know, you got to move through it. You got to get past it. I'm like, oh, yeah, I got to do those things. And so I kept kind of cheating myself out of that process. So I appreciate you reminding me that that's important and reminding others of how important it is, and doesn't mean we're weak. Doesn't mean anything other than we're just letting our process be our process.

Right. Yeah. I think about that for myself now as I'm older, more than I did when I was younger, that, you know, as people know, I came out of this. I became a grief expert because a mother died when I was young and there was a mass shooting, and I saw all of it in the span of three days. And I. You know, and I'm so grateful for the work I do, and I help people, but I also wonder. Wonder what life I would have had had this not happened. Like, I don't even get to think about, gosh, there was no other career that got to unfold. I mean, I'm grateful that this one did, but I'm like, what would I have been? Who knows?

Yeah. Yeah, I think about that. You know, I was. I was at San Francisco State. I was in my last semester. I was applying to master. My master's program for psychology. I wanted to be a therapist.

And.

I. I left that world behind because I was so. I was so stuck in my stuff that the thought of being available to somebody else was like. So I.

You know, who needs a counselor that's, you know. You know, can't get out, you know, out of their own world, you know.

Yeah. And honestly, when my brother first was killed, therapy was, like, the last thing I wanted to do. Support groups was the last place I ever showed up to. I didn't. I didn't do anything. Anything in my recovery at that point. It was, like I said later. And I ended up. I ended up working in television. It was a ridiculous job that was just given to me. So I had somewhere to go every day, and I could just function. And I met a dear friend of mine, Jodi Mann, who had lost her mom to cancer, I think the year before, I could be wrong in that. And she had met this therapist, and she's like, I have someone for you. Just please go. One time. And I ended up going to this gentleman as an older guy, and that was the beginning for me because he was amazing, and I didn't realize how much I needed it. And so even in that process, it kind of brought me back to my calling and to what I always wanted to do. And even though it took me a long time together, that's sort of where I ended up back the last couple of years. But it's weird how it sends you off into this whole other. It's like the trajectory is like crazy. I think differently. I process differently. I let a lot of things go, whereas before I was kind of.

Uptight about certain things. And now I'm just like, meh, what's the worst that'll happen? I've already experienced the worst kind of pain. What's the worst that could happen?

So I'm freer in that way. I think I've liberated myself in that way. A little bit less stressful a little bit, if that makes sense.

But sure. Let me read some comments and if any of you have questions for Kim, be happy to take some questions. Let's see, Mary Beth says, my dad was murdered in January this year. It's a nightmare. Oh, Mary, I'm sorry. Jennifer says her dad used to call her Squirt. Catherine said, so glad you're here.

Thank you for sharing your story. Janine says, you are so sweet and vulnerable talking about your dear brother. Thank you for sharing your heart with us.

Let's see. Just I hope you go back and read these. Sending you a big Kim.

Janine says, I'm very sorry not being able to say goodbye.

Pat says, thank you for sharing your messiness of loss as okay.

Jennifer says lack of closure is the worst when death is unexpected and sudden. And then on top of it, as you and I talked about in sort of our session, that. And then people want you to find closure and it's like. And it's closure for them, not really closure for you. Can you find closure so I'll be more comfortable.

For anyone, by the way, there's no closure. Yeah.

Yeah.

I like to argue. I wonder sometimes if I would have been better suited as a prosecutor. I like to debate sometimes.

Not because I want to be a jerk, but because I want people to be more thoughtful in the way that they approach someone who's in mourning or who has suffered some kind of loss.

The comments that come at me or us, it's mind blowing, the insensitivity that people can demonstrate while trying to be sensitive. And so I start to argue sometimes and I remind people, like, could you think about what you just said, or is there another way that you could say what I think you're probably trying to say? Or I'll argue because I want people to, like I said, recognize how insensitive they're being. And then I stopped and thought, you know, what am I doing that for? Just thank you. You know, I nod my head and thank you. I appreciate that because I Know, sometimes people struggle with how to deal with someone who's in pain. It's hard to see people cry. It's hard to see people with snotty faces and not know what the perfect thing is to say. So I've backed off of that a little bit. But the one area that I still is the closure one, because I don't understand what it even means.

And I think it sends me off into this world of, like, I'm doing it wrong. If I can't find closure, I must be doing it wrong. And I don't want to keep processing all day long as to how I'm doing this.

And I can tell you from years of doing grief work, there is no closure. There is no closure. We don't ever close that door on the person who died and who would want to.

Like I. And that's what one of the things that you said when we talked during my podcast, you know, you.

You.

And I'm going to ruin it. But so many people have picked up on it, you know, that you said, you know, grief needs to be witnessed. Right? And so that was like.

Of course, you know. And so I'm really trying to use that when people say, you know, talk about closure and how if I could just find it or if I, you know, because people see me as being upset still or grieving still, that I must have darkness in my heart, which sort of feels like the exact opposite. But, you know, I mean, I know that's not about me again, so.

And the same way you get reduced, you know, it's interesting. And I haven't been through what you've been through. I get the opposite, that sometimes people will go, oh, my gosh, I saw in that picture, you're smiling. I happen to know your son died, and you're a grief expert, and you shouldn't be smiling. And I'm like, you don't know me or my son. My son would never want to take my smile away from me.

Right?

And that, you know, people reduce people in grief to, you're angry, you're smiling, you shouldn't be there. And it's like, talk to me when you've been through it.

I remember after my brother died, it was with. I don't remember exactly when. I remember where I was, but I don't remember the time frame. But I remember singing in my car for the first time after my brother had died. And because I'm a goofball, I sing all the time. I dance. Yesterday I was in the grocery store just, like, rocking out in the grocery. I'm just. I'm a total goofball. I belt things out in the car. My brother and I would always sing in the car together. And when he died, I didn't. I wasn't inspired. I didn't feel any of that. I just was so, so stuck in my stuff. And I remember when I first started singing in the car, and I stopped myself because I thought, oh, my God, does this mean I'm done? Like, does this mean I'm over him? Does this mean. And I was so confused.

But that was like a moment for me that I thought, oh, this. This just means I'm learning. I'm learning to embrace the moments. And. And that was really liberating. And so I'm fully, fully bored back down to belting out in the car now. So if you see me, just rock on with me. But people had an opinion about how I was grieving and if I was sad, if I had. If I wasn't smiling, I must be a basket case that day. Or if I was smiling, I must be in a great mood. She must be good. She must be good now. And so I was so caught up in all of that, and I still sometimes get that from people. So I.

That's.

That's a whole other. That's a whole other podcast.

It's. It's hard not to take that noise on. You know, I always say what people think of our grief is none of our business. And yet you're human. We're all human. So of course there's some days it can roll off my back, and other days I'm just in it and I'm like, really? Really?

So, yeah.

Well, then go ahead.

Yeah, we have some comments here. Anne Marie says, my son Derek was murdered in July by NCAA athlete who got off scot free. We didn't bother filing a civil suit. I look to you. Oops, sorry, I lost it. My son's sister name is Kimberly. I thank God she has you to look up to. You've. You've inspired people. You know, there's. There's not many people out there who.

Have the lane that you unfortunately have and choose to help the world with your lane. I mean, I. I see, you know, in my Twitter feed and other things, I see the work you do on behalf of others and the victim support you do. And, you know, I admire you.

Of course. Jacqueline says. Kim, where is your podcast? I could tell you where, but you can tell us where better.

It's everywhere. It's. I. I am the worst podcast lister I either. Spotify. It's on itunes. On Spotify. It's on.

Yeah. Any. Any place you could listen to podcasts.

And it's called confronting O.J.

Right.

So if you look up confronting O.J. you're going to find it. You and I had, I think, two little sessions on there that just were very memorable.

You closed out the podcast episode 10, and it is the most.

Commented on and the most conversation that I have had. A lot of people have emailed privately and sent messages, but.

The space that we gave people that were listening to grieve in their own way, and the permission that you were so eloquent in the way that you gave to people in terms of how they grieved has really touched so many. David and I, when I was putting my list together of people, I was like, I have to have David, because I saw you on something. I don't remember what it was. And I know we met at.

Where we were at a. Someone was doing a medium. What were we doing? Right.

Dinner. It was a dinner or something.

Yeah, right. I forgot that. But I just. You. You have such a way about you. And even in. Even as smart as I think I am about so many things, and our session. Our session. Our podcast recording, didn't it.

It was good. And I'm so glad you shared it with the world, because I think, you know, you're so authentic, and I think people long for that sort of wrestling with grief that we did.

Yeah.

Tips to get you through it. It was like we were wrestling with this thing called grief.

Yeah. And I think it's been, you know, I think that we don't. It's kind of like. I think we even said it on the show, too, that, you know, it's kind of like cancer. You know, people don't.

We don't.

We don't talk about it.

Right.

And so if we don't talk about it and put it out into the world, you know, we're never going to get. We're never going to get to a place that it feels a little bit easier to embrace. And so I feel like it's my responsibility in some way to keep talking about it so that I don't want to keep bitching about how people communicate with me, because I'm going to give you all the tips. I'm going to give you the tools. I'm going to give you the opportunities to be more sensitive and to be kinder and more compassionate for people that are on the sidelines and family members that. Friends that have someone that has lost. I've had so many people email and say so, and so is experiencing this. How can I help them? You know, how can I be a better support system? And so that's the stuff I love, because that's all we want, right? Is we all want to be loved better and deeper and kinder. And so I think having these kinds of conversations allows us to do that.

Right? And I just think about. There is an openness that you're sharing with the world that.

You know, one of the things you came along in my life, literally, is I had. It was going to press my. My last book, Finding Meaning, and I'm like, oh, if only I had, like, met you a moment before, but I did, you know, I managed to say in there about how when I think about this idea of finding meaning and honoring those we love.

You'Re honoring your brother and keeping him alive and keeping that memory alive. It's just such an example of that idea of finding meaning. And you're a gift to me. You're a gift to so many in the world. And you and I have talked about. We have plans for the future when. When we can gather again or something, that we want to do something together because we have a synergy that I really enjoy. And there's an authenticity to you that, you know, it's. That you've been through the fire. And.

I find that so just amazing, your ability to take everything you are and everything you do and help people and help people, even after everything. So go ahead.

No, I just. I think I've been in a fortunate situation.

I retreated for a long time when everything happened and felt like I wasn't doing much. I wasn't. I wasn't far enough along in my process to be able to be of service to other people the way that I wanted to be. But in the last however many years that I've been able to get out into the world again and meet other people that have had loss.

That'S been such a gift to me because I forget sometimes because I'm in my head all day long, right? And so it's been wonderful to connect with people and to learn, not that I want other people to suffer by any means, but to connect with other people that have similar experiences. Because there's a lot of. There's just like, a lot of head nodding, right? Like, I don't have to say a lot. There's just like, oh, yeah. Yep. Yeah, oh, me too. You know, and that's, like, so amazing, you know, to get those kinds of virtual Confirmations from other people and a reminder that. That I'm okay in here.

That I'm doing this okay, and that I can remind other people that we're doing okay. And some days we're going to be better at it than others. And some days I'm going to be, you know, with a stiffer lip and I'm going to walk a little taller, and other days I'm just going to be that day. And.

It is messy. You know, it's. It's. And I'm okay there. And it actually feels amazing to not have it be so buttoned up all the time.

And so I love that I've been able to connect with other people in that regard. And we get to be a reminder to each other that that's okay.

And the one. So many things you're an example of, but one of the things that if there's just things I know I say over and over to people in grief, they're like, well, I think I should be this or I think I should be that. And I'm always like, if you're sad, then you should be sad. If you're happy, then be happy. I mean, just allow yourself to be whatever you are in that moment. That there is something so organic about grief, and yet we want to put everything about how we should do it, and there just is no right way to do grief. It's. It's organic.

But I. But I think again, you know, depending on the. The environment that you're in, right? Like, we can be this way with each other, but if I'm. If I'm out in the world with people that haven't experienced it, I do put a guard up a little bit. Because as much as I'm so good with who I am, I sometimes don't want to deal with other people's stuff during the day.

Right.

Like, I don't want to have to make other people okay with my grief. And some days I do, and sometimes I don't. Right. So I kind of have to. I have to gauge. Know my audience. Right. So.

I. And that takes practice and that takes time and allowing myself to feel safe with people, to just let the snot flow, you know, versus other days where I feel like I have to be more stoic, you know, and that's exhausting. It's exhausting. Sometimes I feel like that way with. Sometimes with my son. I've shared this with you, that I felt like I was putting my grief on my kid. As a mom, we don't ever want to burden Anyone. We don't want to burden the people that we love. But I felt like I was putting my stuff on my kid and then realizing that my dad was worried about that with me. Right. And so I was protecting people in my life from the way I was feeling, which wasn't doing anybody anything, because that just drew me further away from connecting. And so that takes time, too. And that takes trusting ourselves and then learning how to discern who we let into our life and who we let be part of our grief. Because it's very personal and it's very intimate, and not everybody deserves it, in my opinion.

And that's one of the keys. I think I knew that from working with people at grief. But it then hit me, you know, as I dealt with my own, that, you know, just because I'm in a long line at the grocery store, people, and the person at the checkout counter says, how are your kids? And I'm like, oh, my gosh. I can't say, fine. But this isn't a moment that deserves the story of my son has died. It doesn't deserve it. Or this person who's just at a party making a flip, it doesn't deserve it. You know, and I get to control it and hold it in when I want and bring it out when I want. And, you know, I think we all have to grapple with all that.

Yeah. My very best friend, who I share the story a lot because we weren't super tight when my brother died, and we were college friends, and she was the only person that actually comforted me at a time that I didn't know how I needed to be. Comfort. Right? Like, everyone's like, well, let me know if you need help. You know, just call me if you need help. I'm thinking, I have no idea. I've never done this.

Where's your list? Where's your list for deal with?

I don't have any idea. And so other people, you know, they were trying in their best way, and nothing was feeling right, but. But Denise, she just sat with me one day in complete silence and said, I have no idea what to say, so I'm just gonna sit here with you. I'm like, oh, like, that's amazing.

Thank you.

I did not know that's what I needed until it happened. But, you know, the other day she called me, and we were talking about. Because she's, you know, during all this quarantine and stuff, and she called me in some ways to kind of apologize, and I said, what are you apologizing For. And she said, because I just got off the phone with my brother and we had this heartfelt conversation, and I was so lucky to have that. And it made me so sad because you don't get to. And she's like, I just wanted you to know that I haven't forgotten. And, you know, 25 years later, I know that the pain is still palpable for you. And I just. And I was like. Because I wasn't thinking about my brother that day. Right? But she kind of came to me in a moment and just she. She acknowledged the loss for me.

And that was so beautiful because I want the people in my life to feel what I feel so that they have those moments, so that there's like that virtual hug again. Right? And.

I don't know the point of all of this, but other than that, it was just. The reason that I let people in sometimes is because of those kinds of moments that I can just have somebody just remember that they honor that with me. And that somebody, when I'm not even asking for it, will say, I remember your brother. I remember your relationship. I remember how close you were, and I remember how hard it is for you to not have him.

And I just. I hope that people have that in their life because that was so touching and so needed. So I don't know what the purpose of that story was other than I just find it so beautiful.

And it's about, you know, virtually connecting with others and how grief works in the strangest ways. I want to thank you for being here. I mean, the time flew by for just sharing your story, sharing your love, for sharing Ron with us. And you're. You're a true inspiration, and I'm so grateful to have you in my life and grateful to have you here. So thank you. Let me ask you, if people want to find you on social media, website, how can people find you if they want to find you?

So social media, it's just on. On Facebook and on Twitter it's just Kim K I M E Goldman because somebody else has my name.

So. Or I have my website, it's kimberlygoldman.com but I'm in the group, too. So if people want to put something in the. In the group chat or I don't know how, on the. In the comment section, I can reach out that way. But through Facebook, I have a page and you can email me through there. I'm slow on the email, but I do read everything, so. And then I try to respond as quickly as I can, but I'm here I know sometimes.

Just connecting with someone on the other side of a keyboard is comforting, but I get it. I don't always have the most profound words, but I get it. And I have a lot of love to offer and a lot of compassion in my heart. So if someone just needs to share or to connect, I'm available.

Thank you so much on behalf of everyone here. Thank you for everything. I so appreciate it. And I thank all of you for being here that you know, we're meeting here every night. We have different people who are coming on tomorrow night. Jason Green's going to be coming on who wrote the wonderful book Once More. We saw stars and just great people coming up also. So check that out. You'll see we list them every day. People like Kim are giving their time to help so many other people. We're going to have Cindy from Team Sharing talk about death by addiction on Friday. And then we're going to have on I think it's Saturday night, we're going to have Diane Gray come on and talk, who's head of the Elizabeth Kubler Ross Foundation, a bereaved mother and just a really special person. Next week we're going to have amazing people also. So many people are willing to volunteer their time. I really appreciate it. Tom Zumba is going to come on. Melissa Rivers is going to talk about the death of a parent. So lots of people are sharing their time. And we mainly want you to know that all of you in grief who are feeling so isolated, you don't have to be islands of grief. We can at least virtually connect here because your life, your loss, the person who died matters. It matters to all of us and we know it matters to you. So thank you for joining us. If you know anyone that's feeling alone, disconnected right now, please let them know about the group. I did this because I didn't want anyone to be alone at this time. So thank you so much and I'll see you tomorrow at 1pm Take care.