David Kessler, grief expert interviews Garrick Colwell about the death of his wife

Hey, everyone. David Kessler here. Welcome. Hey, Garrett. Good to see you.

Hi, David. Good to see you. Good to be with you again.

Absolutely. All right, let's give everyone just a few moments to find us all, and then we'll get started here. So let me see if I can find us.

Oh, good, there we are. We're coming on. All right, Will give people just a few minutes to come on.

It's Sunday. Is that right?

Yes. Yet again. All day.

Yet again. And all day. It seems like this is happening every weekend. Yeah, it's such a joke that I just. The days are just an illusion right now.

You kind of lost track of time.

I have, and sometimes I'm like. I reach out to someone and it's like, you know, you're calling me on a Sunday and I'm like, oh, I didn't. I'm so sorry. So anyway, that's just the craziness of this. Hey, Robin. Hi, Ivy. Hi, Patty. Glad you're here. Hey, Chris from Virginia.

Nice to see you.

Welcome, welcome, welcome.

Hi.

Julie from Utah. Lovely.

Hi. Chris is from the.

Oh, Virginia Beach.

Gotcha. Nice.

All right. Hi. Mary from Rhode Island. Annie from Washington. Glad you're here. All right. Jolene from Phoenix.

Diane from Texas. Welcome, welcome, everyone. I'll give you just a few more minutes. Garrick, where are you coming from tonight?

Well, today I'm coming from my sister's home in Asheville, North Carolina, here celebrating my father's 89th birthday. My mother just turned 88. My father just turned 89, and they just celebrated their 69th wedding anniversary last month.

That's impressive. Yeah, that's impressive.

Glad you're there. All right, let's see. Leona's from Michigan. Shirley's from PA. Jerry's from SoCal.

Nicole's from Ohio.

John's from Massachusetts. Stephen is here. Stephen from Maryland. I lost my wife six months ago.

Oh, my gosh.

Stephen, sending you much love. We're going to be talking about exactly that. We're going to be talking about exactly that. Diane's from Texas. Donna from northwest Michigan. Judy is here from New Jersey. Welcome, everyone.

Well, as if you're brand new, I'm David Kessler. And coming on with a guest. We have lots of different voices. Garrick is also one of our moderators, and he's a talented man and works in the field of end of life care and grief work, and has worked with me a number of times. And I heard some folks say that as I was bringing some more people on to address death of a spouse, significant other in the meantime, Garrick and I were talking. It's like, oh, Garrett, come back again and do another one. Because I know this is a big one for people. So this group was set up after we all had to shut down, stay in after COVID 19. I come on in the evening with different guests, and.

That'S the scoop. And I'm glad you're here. We actually talk to one another with words. We don't do graphics or memes or all those things. So it's a true support group. And I love how everyone supports one another. One of the things I like to do in the beginning is we're all here because someone we love died. So I would love to just give them a moment and send them some love. Okay, So a moment in silence for all those we love and we miss.

Thank you so much.

So I. I've said this before. I often send my younger son or my parents my love when I have a guest with me, I'll often thank their loved ones. So I was sending your wife some love. Yeah.

Sweet Kinslow.

So. Yes, absolutely. So I'm so glad you're here. You know, death of a spouse, we. One of the things, I mean, I would love. Let's just start with you telling people about your story. Then we'll get into some of the nitty gritty stuff.

Well, Kinsel and I met late in life. We met and courted for a year, and then decided to get married and married on November 1st of 2014.

And then about 22 days later, received a diagnosis of stage 4 cancer. And so changed, really, the rest of our lives as far as what we intended to do and all the things we had planned on and the fact that we'd be together for the rest of our lives and be able to just have fun, travel, work in the garden, hold hands, and. Problem was that that wasn't going to take place. And we had to make a total adjustment to how we were going to. How we were going to live the rest of her life together.

Had my mic off there. I think about how brutal that loss is, because. Let's think about it. You know, when a spouse dies, I often talk about the roles. Oh, yeah, they're your companion.

They're your confidant.

They're your person you give affection to, receive affection from.

They're your company.

They're the person you talk about, work for, from how it's affecting you personally. They're just the person who's in the world with you as we're in this moment. Like a pandemic that's who would be with you.

They're the gardener, the person who's keeping the house, who's making the living, who's, you know who. The one person you can tell about your boss about whatever it may be. So I think about when a spouse dies, part partner. There are so many roles that die with him at that point.

Yeah, that's one of the biggest things for me initially was like, I was no longer a husband. I was no longer a caregiver. I basically lost my purpose in life. And I fell into that place where there was no real understanding as to what I was here for anymore. All that was just swept away in a moment's time. Even though we knew in advance, years in advance, that this would possibly happen, it. It didn't matter when it happened. It was devastating.

Yeah. I think sometimes, you know, people will feel like, well, you knew it was coming. It still doesn't mean it's, like, any less hard when it comes.

You still have to come to terms with the reality that they really aren't there. And that process or that whatever time that takes, and sometimes it takes a long time to come to the realization and the acceptance that this is. This is for real in this world.

And, you know, your mind is, well, maybe they're on a trip. They're going to be back soon. And just, you know how people have told me over the years just to. What to do with their side of the bed? Do you lay on their side of the bed? You know, or is it, I mean, just little things like that?

Sometimes, yeah, sometimes that's helpful because it just. It's an opportunity to feel closer. The other. You know, it's not too long after she died that I was going to get groceries. And off in the distance, as I was looking at. Entering the grocery store, I saw her.

The same. Same color, beautiful color, you know, gray hair, beautiful blouse and slacks that I knew very well. And that was her for sure. For that split second, that split seconds, my mind said, oh, she's back. And then, of course, I realized that she wasn't. But I was just blown away. And I went back. I mean, I went back to the closet to make sure. Are those clothes still there or is she really out there? But they were in the closet and she wasn't home. So I just. My mind wanted so badly, even after months had passed, to believe that she was still somewhere.

I forgot it was a rocker. It was like, from a 70s rock band. I forget who it was. It wasn't Grace Slick, but it was someone like her. Her husband had died. And literally she talked about that feeling like, okay, enough now, come back. Like this has been enough. Like, come back. Right. And that idea that they're not coming. The other thing that's always striked me from so many people I've talked to who have spoused I over the years is getting support. They will often talk about how couples naturally socialize with couples.

Sure.

And then all of a sudden, when your spouse dies.

You'Re the odd person out and then you're the third wheel. And how at first the other couples kind of take you out, sort of out of, you know, sympathy, and then it gets awkward. Did you experience any of that?

Yeah. I think the thing is that the awkwardness is really. I went to a party after about a few months after I was invited by friends and they. We went there. I went there, we went there. She was, of course, always in my heart, but. And they knew her for years. Some of them were childhood friends. And when I got there, you know, we chatted. And then two hours had passed, three hours, and I was leaving. I realized we didn't once talk about her. We didn't once have a moment where we took and remembered her or talked about, shared a memory of what we had done together. Not one. And I realized that that was because everybody was really quite uncomfortable with the idea that somehow somebody was going to bring that up. So. And probably it would been okay if I brought it up. But everyone around me, I think, felt that they were uncomfortable bringing it up because they didn't want to remind me of the sadness. Well, that was kind of impossible because that, you know, that she's always close to me. So how could you remind me of something I already am always aware of? So the common, you know, myth that people have about talking about that. And I think that's what happens in.

Right. Eric looks like he's doing okay. Let's not upset him by mentioning her because then he's going to cry and we're going to ruin the evening.

Yeah. And then we're gonna. Then we're gonna be uncomfortable.

Right. And right, right. Like, right. I. I often say it's a little bit of a kabuki dance that everyone's pretending like the most horror horrific thing hasn't happened. A lot of people in here are sharing. They've really had a lot of recent deaths with spouses. Anne lost her husband March 31st. Teresa, her husband went to heaven eight months ago. Hi, Janet Anna's from Adele. Adele Ann is from Adelaide. And her Husband died eight months ago. Ronnie says it's been six months since Joseph left the earth. Diane's husband died two months ago. Oh, my gosh. One of the things, Garrick, you and I haven't even had a chance to talk about this, but the past couple days, I've been filming and working on the new program. And one of the things that I'm really excited about, first of all, it's not going to be on Facebook. So many people have been complaining to me about we don't want to be on Facebook. So it's not going to be on Facebook. But the other nice thing is it's going to have a town square, like a large community for everyone. But then it's also going to have a separate community if you've had a spouse die, a separate community if you've had a child die or a death by suicide or an overdose. So it's going to be nice where people. Because I can sense people like to.

Talk more within their group.

Have you seen that?

Yeah, I have. And there's also just a tremendous amount of relief that can be received from being able to talk and be able to share. You know, unfortunately, you're part of an exclusive club and that. Who wants to. Who wants to pay the dues?

Who wants to be in that exclusive.

Right.

And who wants to pay the due? And how hideous are the dues?

Yeah, exactly. And. But, you know, the point is that grief is. It's important that grief is witnessed. Like you've said before, you know, we're not islands of grief. We need to gr. Be engaged and have an opportunity to move the grief into mourning through being able to share what our feelings are, to feel them and then to be able to share them and to see in other people what it is that we are experiencing within ourselves, to know that in our mind we're not crazy. That's one of the big ones, is that we're not crazy. All those feelings you have about being, you know, adrift and not having a purpose, and all the feelings you have because you're in this in between place, all those are real and they're actually quite normal as part of the process of grieving. But being able to be in a community, to find support, to find different perspectives, it's invaluable to the grieving process. It has been for me.

Andrea says I'll never have the love Jeremy had for me. I'm only 43. I had him for three years, eight months. I miss him so much. He was special. Oh, absolutely. You will Never have the love you had with him again. It is so tragic. And we're sending you much love. Hi, Ann from Ohio. Chris says, they're your everything.

Joy says, my dentist has been gone two and a half years. I don't think I can ever get on top of it. I feel so alone. You know, that's a thing that I also think we underestimate, is that there is a loneliness so different than all other lonelinesses. Wouldn't you agree?

Absolutely. It's Halloween.

Sometimes it's so vast, it's hard to even comprehend. But it just feels so deeply that you're alone. And.

That'S a challenge. That's a challenge. Particularly then on top of that, not being able to socialize because of the pandemic, the isolation that comes with that. So being able to reach out in a forum like this where you can talk with people by phone and also by video, particularly by video, because then we get a chance to exchange. We can actually see each other's facial expressions as to how that's. How they're. How they are doing, and they get a chance to feel safe, hopefully, in expressing how they're feeling.

Right. All right, let me just read through some of these with you.

All right, let's see a lot of them here.

Ann says, I knew I would outlive my spouse. He was a heart transplant recipient. And even with that said, I'm still sure it doesn't make it easier.

No.

Molly says, I cannot use the word widow. I consider myself married. I don't like that my status has changed legally.

Right. It's another point of. It's another star, a stark looking in the face of the reality of what has happened, which is that person is no longer there. And that reconciliation with that reality is the biggest. It's been the biggest challenge for me.

I went to the crematorium and viewed her before she was cremated. And even as I. Even as I drove away, I thought, well, I can't fix that now. Still was trying. My mind was still struggling with the fact that the reality is here and this is another phase of that reality. So I had to really understand. One of the statements you have made in the past was that, you know, pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional. And that I really. When I first thought that, I thought, oh, the guy's crazy. I mean, that's insane. How is that possible? How can the suffering be optional? The suffering is part of the pain. But the bottom line is that it took me a long time to get to a place where I understood that the suffering was optional only if I made a different choice in how I remembered her. Because this was another statement you've made, which is like you're learning you've loved her while she was here. But now I've had to learn to love her in her absence. And that's just was mind bender. But that has happened. And that's the thing that kind of continues to blow me away is that I understand that the suffering is optional, but it's by choice. And I have to make a very hard choice. And to not let my mind distract me, not let my mind have me running around in circles like a dog chasing its tail, but really focus in on the idea that I can remember her worth more love than pain now.

And if anyone's hearing that for the first time, let me just explain that concept. There is the pain of our loved one dying. No one can take away my. The pain of my son dying. I can't take away the pain of Garak's wife dying. I can't take away anyone's pain. I can only be with them. I can only witness it, I can only talk about it. And to me the goal is to help you find the pure pain because that's the pure grief and the pure love. The suffering is the comments your mind makes when you're in pain. And your mind goes, and by the way, you're going to be in this pain forever. Or by the way it's your fault. All those horrific things, things our mind does, our judgment, you know, no wonder they left. Whatever it may be, that's the suffering I'm talking about. Just for anyone who's hearing that concept for the first time, I wanted to just explain that a little more.

So I want to go back and look at some of these. Chris says, how long ago did your wife die?

She died February 12, 2019.

About 16 months.

16 months. Jerry says three years ago. Three teenage daughter helped me love her in her absence.

Susan, hello from New Hampshire. Susan lost her 32 year old son to a brain aneurysm. Oh my goodness. So, so heartbreaking. So heartbreaking. Susan, I'm glad you're here and I'm sorry you're here. Steven says, I understand what you are saying. I have no purpose. Don't want to ever remove my wedding ban. Need advice. So, Stephen, I'll give some and then you can give some. Gary?

Sure.

You know when someone says I don't want to ever remove my wedding band.

I believe.

That'S a cue, a clue of what they're feeling today.

They're not ready to do it. Maybe they never will.

But clearly, it's a statement about not.

Today, not anytime soon. And then I always say, we don't know what the future is. So it's hard to speak for yourself in five years or 10 years or, you know, and let that person speak.

For themselves when you get to that date and time.

Garrick, what would you say about all that?

Yeah, I struggle with the same.

Question. Is it when, when, or do I. And. And what it really meant to me is that I didn't want to forget. That's why I wanted to. I wanted to remember. And so when I realized that I could remember without necessarily wearing the ring and allowing myself the freedom to be able to.

Not necessarily carry that as the only way I would remember her, that was very freeing to some extent. It gave me a chance to open my heart even further to the idea that the love continues. You know, the love doesn't. Doesn't stop. It doesn't die with her. It continues to evolve and grow. That's the part that probably is the most striking thing about this process, is that I can. I'm refi guess it's refining my love for her. There is an appreciation that I've had as a result of being able to continue to love her in her absence and learning how to do that. And so when I walk around the house, I talk with her, and she's there, and I feel connected. And there's a question about this or about that, particularly when it has to do with something that she was very, very good at. She's a wonderful listener, incredibly accomplished therapist. And so those types of things I get a chance to talk with her about, and I feel I get answers. And so it's another way of appreciating her.

You know, we had a session here.

I forgot what we were talking about. I think we were talking about loving.

Again, and it was quite stark. I said that a lot of the studies show men remarrying.

Yes.

And it's a pretty high percentage. And women not remarrying, and it's a fairly low percentage of those who remarry. And we talked about the sense of judgment that women seem to have about being disloyal. And what was amazing is, as we discussed it, the men in the room were sort of going, yeah, I think someday. I'm not ready yet, but maybe someday I will. Not yet, but maybe that's what she'd want. And the women were like, I'm never loving again. Never, never, never. And I'M like, oh, my gosh, I never heard never so much.

Right.

And it was striking to me how there was so much.

Sternness around how that never has to be adhered to.

And.

You know, look, I get it. Certainly everyone's got to discover what's right for them. Some people just loving themselves for the rest of their life is going to be enough. Others loving that person for the rest of their life will be enough. And others may choose to find love again. And it's interesting.

That idea. I don't think new love takes away from old love, but sometimes we have this sense of there's a pie, that.

There'S only so much.

So I said a lot. What do you think about all that?

Well, I think it's an important point that, you know, sometimes guys will marry right away and they'll replace. It's an attempting to replace because their love language doesn't have. They haven't created or understood the words to express how they feel. So the only way they know what to do is to take action. And you take action by solving the problem, which is you're missing a wife. So now you get a wife. And that's, you know, that's you kind of running from your own pain, not doing the work that allows you.

Men replace. There's that old saying, men replace. Right, Exactly.

And there's something that happened, but that gets a little bit blown out of proportion because normally couples have a conversation about this, and normally the couple will, you know, the person who's dying will say, I want you to go on and be happy. If that requires. Means you marry someone else or you're with someone else, you know, make sure that you do that. And so there is a, you know, kind of an agreement that you. That's what will take place. But it doesn't mean that you're being disloyal. It just means that you're not only following your.

You know, the. The gift they've given you, the freedom to move forward, the blessing, as it were, at the same time, even if they didn't, you know, you were not in love before you found them, then you found them. This person I found Kinsel, and now I'm in love with her. It doesn't mean I can't love again. It just means that as I move into.

Another relationship, then I'm going to be that much more able to love more deeply because I was able to experience that love and then bring that love to the new relationship as well.

And I think, you know, it's so important.

One of the things I speak about, you speak about, a lot of us speak about, is that, you know, everyone, every single person has their unique. Whether it's a grief path or a grief journey or a grief experience that even your best friend whose husband died, also, what she's doing may not be right for you, and what you're doing is not right for her. There's no timeline in grief. There's no, she takes her wedding ring off earlier, you date soon. I mean, you never date. There's no right or wrong in grief. And I think.

Certainly women get judged on what they do more than men.

And I think the. The point is this grief is a no judgment zone. It's no judgment.

We know that. We haven't let society know that yet.

And society is, you know, has got to come to terms with the fact that. And as they deal with their own understanding of how grief works in our lives, that the biggest gift that we can give, when people say, well, gee, what do I say? What am I going to say? Well, the idea is that maybe just saying nothing is okay. Just being present with them and allowing them to be wherever they are and ask them how they're doing today, not just how you doing, but how are you doing today? And then follow up with a question about, you know, maybe a memory that you had with their husband and things that you guys did together. The other day we were in a grief group and a woman mentioned her husband had died and another woman in the room actually knew her husband professionally. And she went on to talk about her husband. And you wouldn't believe how this woman who lost her husband lit up. She was so excited to hear a story about her husband that she would not know much about because she didn't follow him around every day in his professional life. But it made so much difference. Her heart just melted and she was so, so pleased and so just lit up because she had a chance to remember him with love.

I also think so many times, you know, people just don't know what to say. They don't know what to say.

And that's the part that becomes incumbent upon us to some extent as the griever, because we're the grief expert. You know, we're the ones having the grief experience that somehow we'll find compassion to be able to talk about what is proverbial elephant in the room.

Right?

Say, you know, the other day I was thinking about the time the three of us were together, or we were together as a couple and we went fishing and that big fish that I remember that Bob found or caught. It was amazing. And then, of course, that, you know, softens the sharpness of the moment of discomfort. So it's a great way to, you know, to be able to support one another is by sharing stories and memories that you have of one another and as you did as a couple.

Well, it's also how people live. You know, there's something about when your.

Loved one dies, there's no more of them.

And when someone comes up and tells.

You a story that you didn't know.

About your spouse that died, your partner that died, your significant other, your husband.

Your wife, suddenly there's more of them.

And that's why we love those stories so much.

Yeah. Yeah, I remember you did that last year. The story about you and Kinsel, the conversation you had at 14, 40. And that just meant the world to me. I just so touched my heart. It was wonderful. Very expansive and very. Just very warm and touching. So those stories make a big difference.

And then your wife could look into.

The future and want to know that.

You'Ll be taken care of and just even comment on that, which is very sweet.

Yeah.

All right, let me just read some of these here.

Andrea says I have the capacity. The capacity to love again. If I ever had another relationship, they will have to be okay with me.

Still loving Jeremy and maybe breaking down every now and then.

Yeah. And I experienced that with Kinslow and Kenzo. Her late husband had, you know, had died. And they would. She still would have dreams occasionally about him or with him, and so we would talk about them. And so I. I had to learn that. But I not know what initially. Initially, in an argument or she was fussing at me about something. She called me his name. Oh, what's going on here? So I had to learn. And she was gracious and kind and explained, and I, you know, took time, but I understood that actually, when she did that, it was kind of an honor that she would call me his name, because she loved him and she loves me. And because she loved him, she could love me even more. And so, yeah, we kind of have to, I think, as grievers and we enter into new relationships, be willing to help guide the new person in our life on how this works, because they're coming to this kind of cold and really kind of, you know, taking a chance with their emotions and being vulnerable. So it's important for us to help them.

Ronnie says, I feel guilty that I'm still here. I'm looking forward to the program that's coming up. So in the program that's coming up, I'll be able to say, tell us more, Ronnie. And we'll be able to talk to her, because it's hard to know what that is. And there's many ways guilt comes out. Sometimes we'd rather be guilty than helpless.

Yeah. At least we're doing something. At least our mind thinks we're doing something right.

Let's see.

Let me look at a few others here.

Marcia says she removed hers the day of the funeral, which I think is the wedding ring. And. And you're going to see people did that all kinds of different ways, you know, And I often say to people.

Your. Your vows were till death do you part. You actually completed your agreement. You completed your vows. Kay says three years after Larry died, while visiting our physician, he brought up Larry's name and said what a teacher he had been. I don't know how to describe the words I felt hearing his name from a professional who knew him, but it could claim to appreciate learning from my Larry. And she was like, yay. It means so much.

Yeah.

Sue says there's no timeline on removing a wedding ban. Absolutely. Mary says seeing a romantic couple makes me miss the love we shared. I could see that.

You know.

She says seeing a romantic couple makes miss the love we shared. Yeah.

And also it's a reminder of the love you shared and the sweetness and the. And the intimacy and the warmth that you shared. So there's a. It's bittersweet, you know, when I see that, it's like it's. It is bittersweet, but it's nonetheless the reminder of. And that's where you kind of committed to the idea that remembering with more love than pain. Yes. There is the twinge of pain that the loss was there. There's also that sweet, beautiful feeling of the fact that that love was. Was shared and was real. And it still goes on. It's still here. She's still as close as my heart.

And jealousy is actually very normal. In grief, you get to be jealous of a happy couple. On Facebook and Instagram.

Carolee says couple friends don't include me now, which hurts so much. It's now that I need my friends. I guess I have to develop my other friendships. It's hard. I miss my husband Bob, so much. Six months. That seems forever.

Well, that's really new.

And I also think there is something about when you get in a couple, a lot of times you don't resonate with your single friends, so you kind of do leave them sometimes. There obviously may not Be the ones you see quite as much. And it does become sort of easier to do things with other couples. And then, you know, I can see how that would play out, that she has to look back to her other friends. Chris said she still wears her wedding ring.

Okay. Susan says, do you have suffering pain explanation in a book? Yes, it's in finding meaning. It's in there.

Regina says, my beautiful husband has been gone for 14 months. We were married for 41 years. Today I was verbalizing how much I hate life without him. Natalie Cole's song Miss you Like Crazy brought out the emotion. I thought you were going to say unforgettable. See, Natalie Cole's got a lot of.

Songs.

By the way, next Friday, speaking of songs that resonate.

Yeah.

We're going to have Marilyn McCoo.

Marilyn McCoo and Billy Davis on.

I mean, how many of those songs? One less bell to answer. Up, up and away. Oh, my gosh.

Carol. Carl says this all makes sense on a rational level, but still the anguish of being without her comes up in spasms.

Oh, that's. That's absolutely true. You know, we can mentalize all this we want, and it all sounds good on paper, but when you're in it, particularly in the early stages of grief, I found myself to be overwhelmed by it, you know, just kind of flattened and in that betwixt in between place where I just didn't feel like I wanted to do anything. So the. What worked for me is that I realized that I had to feel the feelings. If I didn't feel the feelings, then they would be. This would be overwhelming for a long, long time to come. So it took its own time and I allowed. That's the thing was that I didn't. Some people say, when will this be over? And of course that's a really, you know, a mental understanding or trying to capture it in time. And that is it'll be over when it's over. And the only way that it's over when it's over is by feeling the feelings, letting those process through, letting them move through either change. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

And I think there is like, there is. I think one of the challenges for.

People in grief is there is no day it's over.

I mean, I come back to my mom and dad's house and I see pictures of us on the mantle. And of course I get weepy because I remember that day and that time. But the point is that. So that's never. It's never far away, but it just winds up being a place over the Course of time with an intention of saying, I want to remember this with more love than pain. Because that's what this is all about, is love. It's just not the love I anticipated with the physical person being there, with Kinsel being there by my side. So, again, I just had to really concentrate on learning to love her in her absence. It takes time. It takes effort, but it takes time. And allowing yourself to feel those feelings is the way I found my way to understanding that.

You know, you talking about continuing to love her is so important.

You know, look, there's no one right way to do grief.

It's very rare that I say anything about how anyone else does it. But there is a quote that I do understand on one level why they said it, and on another level, I don't believe it. And the quote is, grief is love.

With nowhere to go.

Yeah.

And I remember someone telling me in.

A retreat how that had just gotten them stuck. And I said, why? And they were like, well, I still.

Want to love my husband, but it's got nowhere to go. And I went, no, you can still love him.

Sure.

I get he's gone. And I get there's no one to hug, which I think is almost more accurate.

There's nowhere to hug.

But the idea that we stifle love.

Felt unnatural to me.

I still love my son. I still talk to my son. I still send him love. Talk to me about you loving your wife still.

Well, I think that's the point. You said love is to be stifled. That's just an aspect of the way the mind wants to try and control the situation. And our minds, in that case, are just not being very friendly to us, and we're allowing that to be more our focus than we are the love itself. And then when. So for me, it's like, I was like, well, how is it that I'm going to continue to love her in her absence? Because, like, oh, that seemed odd, but in fact, it's been very true. And it's just been more. It's just been more like becoming aware of it. It's not something that you have as a goal. It's just becoming aware of it over the course of time and allowing yourself to feel what you need to feel. And as you do, then you come. I come to terms with the fact that obviously she's not coming back. I mean, she hasn't been back at the house for 16 months, so I don't think she's coming back. But at the same time, that love that we shared continues to Be refined and appreciated for what it was and what it's done for me and what it did for her. But right now, what's doing for me to open my heart further so I can be more compassionate and understanding and perhaps more loving.

So that's what the love continue to do. It's like. It's a process. It's done by intention. It's done by choice. At some point where you finally believe that you have a choice and you're not totally overwhelmed by the emotions. Until that time, my feeling is that I felt the feelings and just went with it until I was able to find a place where I could say, well, I think it's. I want to. I really do want to remember this more with more love than pain. How do I do that? And eventually it started to happen.

And it's a strange. It is a permission we have to give myself or give ourselves. You know, when you miss them, it's okay to miss them.

Yeah.

You don't have to. Oh, my gosh, I'm missing them again. Just miss them.

Yeah.

Miss them. Send them love.

Yeah. Be with that. And recognize that in that bittersweet moment, there is the feeling of the loss. And like, oh, my heart sinks, but at the same time, my heart opens through. When I start remembering that, oh, that's because I loved her and she loved me. And that continues to this moment.

And I think with COVID and isolation and so many things in the world, they're the person you'd be isolating with. There'd be your companion. They're the ones as everything goes on in the world. You watch news, you talk to each other about what you're seeing in the world. So many losses. I think there's. The isolation is so much more intense.

Yeah, the isolation makes it more pronounced because there's no distractions. You're. I'm in the house and I'm watching a movie. I'm. I'm looking over to where she is right next to me, and I'm holding her hand and she's not there. I can't comment on that, but, boy, do I do I do now. But I. But initially was like, that was the. That the big gap is like, well, wow, that's not. She's not here. And the other day I was thinking about the pandemic and being in quarantine. I thought, I'm pissed. I really, really irritated with you. You're not here. We could have done this together. Why aren't you here? So I had a moment of just actually going I'm not happy, really not happy about being alone in this pandemic by myself and you not being here to talk about what's going on.

Ronnie says people think I'm crazy for talking to my Joseph. Nope, don't think you're crazy.

Not at all.

Mary says she talks to her son Robin. It's okay not to be okay. That's one of Kubler Ross's big quotes. She always say, it's okay not to be okay. She would say that over and over in her lectures.

We seem to have an absolute commitment to the idea we have to be happy 100% of the time.

In grief?

No, not a lot of happiness and grief. There's love, you'll find.

It's been three months. Well, I should be over it by now. Not necessarily.

Christine says, would you speak of the death of a spouse who suffered from dementia, Alzheimer's, Grief on the installment plan, so to speak? You know, I think about dementia, Alzheimer's, it's one diagnosis with a hundred losses.

It is.

So many losses over time.

Yeah. I watched Kinslow waste away physically and that was just heart wrenching to see her go through that process. Her body go through that process. Her spirit remained bright, but her physically watching her go through that. And I can't imagine what it's like to go through dementia where it's just over the course of time, you see the person you know slowly fade away. That person you loved is no longer the same person.

There.

There's something different. So.

Right.

Wow.

Time flies. Garrick.

Thank you.

We're already at 45 minutes. Let me just tell folks about who's coming on next week. Real quick.

Monday night, tomorrow, 5pm Is Leslie gay Streeter. She's the author of the book Black.

Widow, A Sad and Funny Journey Through.

Grief for people who would normally avoid books with the word journey in the title. She sounds very funny. And obviously also going to be talking about the death of a spouse. And I think I heard rumor that one of the ways she got through grief, or is getting through grief, is with fries.

French fries.

Tuesday, 6pM Is Dr. Melody Moore. She's a psychologist.

She's going to talk about the grief of her father and the grief of infertility.

Wednesday is going to be Frank Ostaseski. He wrote the book to Five Invitations. Thursday is going to be Estelle Perel, an amazing, well known therapist. And then, as we mentioned, Friday is going to be Marilyn McCoo and Billy Davis. They wrote Aquarius, Let the Sun Shine In. You don't have to be a star, all those amazing things. And you know, people like you and all of the people who are coming on are here giving time because we want you to know in Covid with the world the way it is, we see your pain. Garrick's here tonight because we're all here witnessing your pain and letting you know you're not alone. And we can at least show up in these ways for one another virtually.

Absolutely.

Garrick, how can people find you? They want to know more about you.

Well, my late wife Kinsel and I co founded along with 20 other healthcare professionals in Austin, a nonprofit called kitchentable conversations.org and you'll find details on how to do your advance care plan as well as end of life and the grief educational workshops and webinars.

But that's how you get a hold of me.

Wonderful. And you'll see more of Garrick here. Garrick's one of us. And thank you so much. And like I said, lots of people coming up. And we've got a new program coming up I'll be telling you about soon. And Leslie Gray Streeter, who I mentioned, that's on Monday. Her and I are also doing the to the Today show Tuesday morning.

Nice.

So we'll be sharing on there, talking about George Floyd's funeral. Obviously, that's going to be happening. All right. You know, there's just so much grief in the world now that needs to be witnessed. And we're doing our best here to witness it here in other places. So, Garrick, thank you. Thank you, David, everyone out there, thank you. I appreciate everyone so much. And I'll see you tomorrow night. Take care.

Good night.