Dr. Edith Eger, Author and Holocaust Survivor on Complicated Loss

Welcome. Welcome, everyone.

So nice that you can all be with us this evening.

Glad you're all coming in. Going to give it one more moment.

I see lots and lots of people coming in. That's great. Wonderful. Dr. Edie, I'm so thrilled to see you again.

I am so happy to be with you. It's always a joy to look at your positive, loving, beautiful.

Being, I call it.

Well, thank you.

You are one of my teachers in the world, so I am grateful to always have a moment to sit down with you and chat.

Thank you.

So obviously people know. Many people know your book, the Choice and love it. And I want to let everyone know you have an amazing new book out called the Gift. That really is a gift. So I hope people will check out the gift from Dr. Heedy, who's a Gift herself.

So I want to begin.

So many people here. This is a group that I started.

After Covid. Many, many people who are here had a loved one die from COVID Many people who are joining us also had.

A loved one who happened to be dying during the shutdowns and couldn't say goodbye to their loved one, couldn't be with them.

So I always like to start these sessions by just one moment of silence to honor all of those who are no longer with us. So if we could have a moment of silence to send them love wherever they are.

Thank you so much for that, Dr. Eddy. I think let's start there.

This is a world that grief is challenging. In a normal world, people are grieving now in an abnormal world, without funerals, without being able to say goodbye.

Is there any advice you would have for the people who feel like they've been robbed twice, that they couldn't even be with their loved one? You certainly have experienced that as a concentration camp survivor, people not being with loved ones as they were dying.

Yes.

I don't think we can compare.

Anything.

With what's going on right now because.

None of us were prepared for this.

And the journey that I'm hoping.

That you are being guided and I'm hoping to be your guide tonight, that there is a grieving feeling and healing because you cannot heal what you don't feel.

I was speaking to a group of people a while ago and they were carrying the picture of their loved ones who died.

And.

One woman told me that her son died when he was 29 years old and had a picture of that beautiful son.

And tonight maybe I can perhaps tell you.

That I think that God has a plan for all of us even before we are born.

And I had nothing but survivor's gear for many, many, many years. Even when I graduated with honors, I didn't show up for my graduation because I said to myself, my parents are not here. It's just I like to say something that might be a way to looking at things. And what I told that woman that maybe that spirit God sent to her for 29 years.

And wouldn't be a gift to that person.

That 29 years.

Can be celebrated.

Rather than thinking as losing or, you know, lost and found. I don't think life is that way. I think we are here alone when we are born. And we're born with joy, we're born with love, we're born with passion. And the biggest gift that you can give to that loved one that they left here. Someone who is committed to others, who is capable of embracing others, who is coming and showing up for you tonight and moving, transcending the me, me, me. And look at perhaps everything.

I look at Auschwitz as an opportunity.

For me to discover.

That life is from inside out. And this is the time to discover your inner resources, that maybe God has sent you that person. And I know it's the saddest thing that you just said, that they were not there when they died.

That is really very sad. And I'm so, so sorry. So very sorry.

But my daughter calls it Eddieism. So I give you a couple. And one of them is the opposite of depression is expression. Because what comes out of your body doesn't make you ill. Have a good cry, scream it out, go for a walk.

Just don't get addicted to that. Because even the Bible tells us that we go through the valley of the shadow of death.

Don't camp there, set up household there. I think the Torah is very, very wonderful.

Because the Shiva is giving you permission. That's a very good word. Give yourself permission to really not to deny it or minimize it or even trivialize it, what happened?

It's totally unexpected. It's totally unanticipated. So I want to ask you never ask someone, how are you?

I like you to treat someone and meet them where they are.

And don't try to cheer up a depressed person because then they feel guilty that they should feel better and they don't. Just keep that feeling company. And don't ask, how are you? And don't say, why don't you? Yes, but you have other children. Yes, but you still have. No, no. Nobody can ever replace anyone. We're all one of a kind, unique, authentic.

Children of God. And there never, ever Be another you. So I came to celebrate and I'm hoping that I can somehow be a good role model to you at 93 and asking you to write your book. Because for many years people asked me to write a book and I would say I have nothing to say.

And this is your time now to discover.

That you have a lot to say.

So I hope you are not revolving, but you're evolving.

So these are my couple of ID isms.

That's pretty profound. I hope you are not revolving, but evolving. And I'll tell you.

You said a lot there. That's a pretty amazing opening.

You know, as we've talked before, and I have always found your words so comforting, not only as a grief expert myself, but as a grief expert who lost my mother at a young age, saw horrible shooting at a young age. And then after decades of working in this, having my own son die. And the words you have said to me through that have been so, so kind.

And one of the things that I think about what you just said to everyone, that I think sometimes people get confused. Like one time someone said to me, david, people talk about gratitude. Can you find gratitude in your son's death? And I said, no, I can't. But I can only think of one thing worse than my younger son dying. Me coming to this earth and never getting to meet him.

And for that I'm grateful that I got to meet him this time.

And I think people get sometimes confused in grief that they hear something like gratitude early on or celebrating early on. And I think our message is grieve fully and live fully.

Yes, exactly. And also there is no forgiveness without rage. You gotta go through the rage. And I know I had tremendous problems with anger. I came to America penniless. I didn't speak a word of English. I just wanted to be a Yankee Doodle Dandy like you. And I went completely underground. I didn't realize that the body talks to you. I had tremendous migraine headaches. I had tremendous problems with my digestion. And I didn't realize that there is a 16 year old girl that I keep running away from. And so I went to school and I went to school and I became Dr. Edith Iwaigha, not realizing that I was nothing but.

A fake, an imposter. Pardon me? Imposter. An imposter. You see, I was wearing a white coat, Dr. Eager, Department of Psychiatry. And I had two Vietnam veterans, both paraplegic. And I realized I cannot take them further than I have gone myself. And I decided to go back to Auschwitz and this is what I'm hoping, that maybe you can revisit the places.

And relieve that experience. But then.

You make a decision that this is your time out to revise your life. And not to say, why me? But what now?

Now you bring up in those two stories I want to tell two important factors in there. Number one, when you thought about going back to school, you said to someone, yes, but I'll be 50 by the time I graduate.

He said, you'll be 50? Anyway.

That is exactly. And when I told my husband I, I want to get a doctorate, he said, I don't want to be introduced as Mr. And doctor. So I tell women, you go and become a doctor, and then my husband will become like Mr. Higgins. My God, she's got it. You know, My husband was carrying me around, doctor. You see? So I ask people to make a decision what they gonna hold on to. For your son to die.

Is the last thing that you ever expect.

If your parents die, it's kind of. I'm not saying it's easier or it's not easier, but somehow it's more natural for the parents to come to a time. And this is the evening time of my life. And I have nothing but gratitude that I have come this far, that I'm able to not ask what the world is giving me, but in what way I can be useful to other people. So I have my calling, and I will never ever retire. I live in a present, and I think young, but not young and foolish.

I like to be childlike, but not childish.

Right? Exactly. One other thing you mentioned. I just want to unpack a little bit for people, too. That I think is so important.

We talk about a number of things. There's no comparing in grief. Interestingly enough, we often think we will all grieve the same. Maybe we'll grieve the same if we're married to one another. Or we'll grieve the same. The family. And when you decided to go back to the concentration camps, for you to grieve that way, your sister said no.

She told me I'm an idiot. And she told me I'm a masochist. But I think for me, I need to go back to that lion's den and look at the lion in the face, reclaim my innocence and assign the shame and guilt to the perpetrator. And I could not do that in a therapist office.

So I don't think you have to actually go back. I don't ask my patients to go back to Auschwitz, but I like them to examine the concentration camp that they carry with them in their mind. And also the key is in your pocket.

And I also, like you, didn't make your sister wrong. You realized she grieves differently than you.

She does it her way, and I do it my way. I think she's 99 years old and she'll tell you she's 98 years old. So January 23rd is going to be hundred in my calculation. And I was always very good with numbers. My husband called me a walking telephone book. I was too lazy to look it up, so I remembered it. So she's going to be 100 years old, and now she's cheating herself. So don't lie about your age. I don't think that's really becoming. I love my age.

I am much more free because I give up my need for other people's approval.

And I'll tell you, my teacher, Elizabeth Kubler Ross, she used to talk about how much she loves her wrinkles.

Oh, I love her. She earned every one of them. You know the story about her when someone asks her to talk about the bunny?

Yes.

Yes.

And how she began to cry and start crying in the 50s because you don't forget, you don't overcome, you come to terms with it. There is a special place in your heart. In my heart. But I don't live there.

Right. For any of you that don't know that story.

It'S a challenging story.

She talked about and was open about. There were times she didn't do her grief work. And there were things that came up from her childhood that she had not worked on. And one of the things that came up, I think, during a retreat.

That.

Triggered her was in her childhood, she.

Her.

Her father raised rabbits. And Elizabeth made the mistake of making one of the rabbits her pet bunny. And one day her father told her to take that bunny to the butcher shop. And Elizabeth knew she had to listen but could not do it. And she took the bunny and shooed it, trying to get it to run away. And the bunny kept running back to her. And Elizabeth said in that moment, she realized the object of her love loved her back.

And the bunny would not run away. And she had to take the bunny to the butcher. And when.

The butcher came out and put the bunny wrapped up, cut up and all that still warm in her hands, do you remember what he told her?

I remember.

He said, it's a damn shame you brought this bunny in. It was pregnant.

If you would have waited two more years, two more days, she would have had two more Bunnies.

Right, right. And that came up years later, and Elizabeth had to work on that. And it got triggered at a grief retreat of hers.

That's a very good word. You're being triggered all the time.

But you have the power not to react, but to respond.

You have the power not to react, but respond. Isn't that the truth? One of the things in ideism is you say all therapy is grief work.

Yes. Yes. Not what happened, but what didn't happen.

Right.

So when my little girl went to Bishop's and asked me to buy her a dress to go to a dance, and I came home and out of the blue, I was crying, I didn't get it. How come that I'm crying? I just bought Lindsay a beautiful black velvet dress. And then I realized that I'm not crying because Lindsay went to a dance. I cried because I never went to a dance.

And I think exactly like you said, people don't realize we have to grieve.

For what never was.

To heal. Yes. And not to minimize it. Not to use defense mechanism. Not don't fight it, don't run from it. Just sit down and say, I have a feeling invited in. And you decide how long you're going to hold on to it.

You know, it was interesting. I was in my 40s, and I was working in a hospital system, and the boss brought me in and said, one of your co workers who's a good friend of yours is going to be fired today.

Do you want to just be around to make sure he's okay? And I said, yes. So he got the news that he was fired. He packed up his things. I helped him. He said he was driving home. I said, would you like me to come over? He said, sure. I walked in his house with him. He sat down, picked up the phone, and he was in his 40s, and he called his mother. His wife already knew. He called her on the way home and he called his mother. And I got a pang. Even though my mother had been dead for 25 years, I went, if I ever get fired, I don't have a mother to call. I never even thought that. And then all of a sudden it hit me.

It's a trigger.

It's a trigger. Right? Right. One of the other things you say that I think is so important in grief is you say, because we're a people pleasing society, you say, don't ask other people's permission to live or to grieve.

That's right. And heal, and don't be a perfectionist, because then you Want to do everything just right. And then you become like Scarlett o'. Hara. Remember, the Yankees are coming. It's war. And she said, I'll think about it tomorrow. So perfectionism leads to procrastination.

And I hope tonight is maybe the time to rethink and redecide. This is a timeout period, so you can keep walking and pick an arrow that you follow to have a goal. And also pay attention to what you're focusing on, because what you think, you create.

And I think people.

Realize that. You know, so many times people will say, I'm never getting over this grief. Or. And I always say, you know, our loved ones aren't colds. We don't recover from them. But if you go, my life is never worth living again, or I'll never be happy again. I'm like, do you know what that does to you? To say that a hundred times over in your mind?

Say that again.

When you say always and never, these are absolutistic words. Instead, you want to say up till now and in the past. So get rid of the absolutistic word because.

You actually may come through what you feel.

I hear from women, I'm never gonna find a man. And I say, you know, honey, if I were a man, I would run from you.

You want to write down everything you want from a man and you become that person. The likelihood for you to attract what you dish out will improve.

You know, don't play Cinderella. Wait for man with a foot fetish to find you in the kitchen. You know, it's just today you go to the computer, and I love the zoom, because I can see you and I can just put on a nice car and I don't have to go to the airport. I don't have to stand in line. And so you find a gift in everything. Auschwitz helped me to change hatred into pity.

And my loving God guided me to feel sorry for the guards who were brainwashed. And I had no power over whether they going to send me to the gas chamber. When we took a shower, we didn't know whether water or gas is going to come out.

And in that sense, I think we are in that unfortunate position because we don't know what's going to happen tomorrow.

Especially with it being election day. We really don't know what's going to happen tomorrow.

And we never do.

We never had such an election like we do now.

So.

One of the things I also think about is our grief gets mixed in with our old wounds. And one of the big old wounds I See, I've had it myself. I see it in other people is the fear of abandonment.

And you even talk about that comes from our infancy. Could you talk about that fear of abandonment so many people carry?

I think the biggest fear of a child is the fear of abandonment. And that's why we give up our true self to fit the family dynamics.

So firstborn children become the responsible one.

If you're a firstborn and you marry a firstborn, you're gonna have power trouble because you have two bosses.

And if you're a middle child, you're going to become a kissing girl because you want everybody to get along with everybody else. You're a very good peacemaker. You're the one, right? You're a good peacemaker. But you know how we call youngest children? Charming manipulators. So when.

Two youngest children get together, they really wondering, you know, who's going to take control around him. And the dependency also has a lot of reward because when you dependent for someone to make you happy, you're never going to be happy.

And you mentioned the idea of writing down. And I've heard you talk about writing before. I'm about to start a writing class that we're going to journal and write through trauma and the holidays. What role do you think did writing this book help you? How. How do you feel about writing? For healing.

Anything that comes out of your body will never make you heal. What stays in there does. And you would be surprised. Once you start writing, so many things come for you. Like right now, Thanksgiving is coming up. And when I came to America and I worked in a factory.

And my little girl came home from a daycare center and told me I have to buy a turkey because Thanksgiving is coming up. I didn't know Thanksgiving, whether you eat it or drink it or what, but I couldn't afford that turkey.

So I'm recalling right now, it's 1949.

I go to the grocery store called Shriver's and I see the turkey and the geese and finally I find a little chicken. And I went to the man and gave him whatever money I had. And he took out 25 cents and four pennies. My first, my first experience in America. I did my choreography in the bus. It took me three buses to go home, which meant maids room. And I said, hey, Marianne, we're going to have a baby turkey. I was totally fired up. I did the high kick, I did a split.

And she went back to the daycare center. I had a baby turkey. And so it's how you present And Marianne did not ever knew how poor we were.

Right? Right. Yeah. People don't understand that poor is actually a state of mind.

It's more than about money. So.

I wanted you for this group. So many people who have been dealing with COVID I could not keep you just to that group. I had to let my other group, Tender Hearts, in. I wanted them to be a part of it, and I had to open it up because I wanted so many people to experience you. Would you be open to a few questions from folks?

All right, so if you have a question that you're willing to come on screen succinctly and ask just one question, I want to make sure we have time for a few. So if you have to be willing to come on screen if you have a question, and I will bring you on. So I'm going to bring in Doris. Doris is actually from my tender hearts group. So let me bring you in, Doris, to ask a question. You should be coming in in a moment.

And she can chat with you. And here comes Doris. So you should be able to unmute and Say hello to Dr. Ede.

Hello, Doris.

Hello, Dr. Ede. It's a pleasure to meet. Honored to meet you.

Thank you.

Do you want to start your video? Oh, there you are. Hi, Doris.

Thank you so much.

Dr.

I'm a child of a survivor. My father was in Auschwitz.

And I was wondering if you could perhaps guide me.

We won't have to go into how many, losing everyone or anything. But throughout my life, I came to America when I was a child with my mother. Dr. I have anxiety attacks. I was not. I went to visit Auschwitz once. But whether it's watching a movie, whether it's just hearing the word, I wind up getting attacks. And I don't understand, doctor, that not having lived it, why I feel that. And I was wondering if you might have some sense of. Of knowing, understanding.

One of the things I can tell you. A child of a survivor many times gets parentized.

They take care of the parents. They teach the parents how to speak English. They introduce them peanut butter and. And tuna fish and things that the parents are not really equipped. And then you go to school, and then your friend has white bread with mayonnaise and bologna, and you have a Kreisser roll with.

Roast beef, and you go home and. And you want to have the. The same thing. You don't want to be different.

So you see, anxiety.

Has to do.

With thinking anxiously.

Because when you're angry.

You may need to go underneath of anger. There are many other Emotions, and one of them is anxiety, and one of them is a lot of pain of the unresolved grief, but most of all, a lot of fear.

So I'm so glad that I'm talking to you because I ask you.

To recognize that.

The Jewish people.

Didn'T have it as good, our ancestors.

And they never gave up. So you carry a good blood of survivors and let your parents.

Knowing that they didn't leave a child here who has anxiety.

No, no, honey. It's very possible for you to go through the grieving, the feeling, the healing. And where are your parents buried? I usually ask people to go to the cemetery.

Well, Vienna. I was born and raised in Vienna. He's still in Vienna. And may I just say, you said a word that you didn't have hate. And my father. I was a young child, my parents got divorced. I came to America. And he said if he would have felt hate. He's used the same words as you did, Doctor, that would have killed him more than his years in Auschwitz.

Well, you know, there is no love without hate. There is no life without death. That, you know, that is no summer without winter. You know, we have to look at the polarities rather than feeling totally helpless or totally grandiose. And some people fluctuate by the two. I think you're a wonderful teacher yourself. And you have a little girl in you who's crying and said, I want a healthy mommy. And if Joan Rivers would be here, she would tell you, grow up and be a sensuous woman. Have as many orgasms as you can because orgasms prevent Alzheimer's.

There you go. There you go. So, you know, Dr. Ede, if I can say one other thing, just about Doris, if you don't mind, Doris, I.

Didn'T want to take up the time.

After all, Doris has been by being raised as a Holocaust child of the Holocaust, her parent being their parents. She went on to have a granddaughter who died in a horrible public accident. And it's been so challenging for her as it would be for anyone.

I'm so sorry. And I'm hoping that she will not say, oh, I'm so sorry. I don't want to take up time. You know, these are the people who always look for other people rather than. Yeah, it's okay for you to take time. You're important. You're one of a kind. Look how far you have gotten. So I think it's very important not to think that if you think of yourself that you're selfish, because self love is self care. It's not narcissistic. Please. If you don't love you, why should I? So it's really important for me to tell you to be a good mommy to you, empower yourself, that you have a balanced life between working, loving and playing.

Thank you so much, doctor.

Thank you, Doris.

An honor to have met you, doctor. Thank you.

I will see you tomorrow in Tender Hearts. Taurus.

Thank you, David.

The other thing that I want to just say that I thought has been always so powerful about your counseling is people think about the prison you were in in Auschwitz. And so many times when you are counseling people who have been abused or people who are their loved ones die and they're blaming themselves, you'll talk about you've left your prison bars and they're still in theirs. Can you talk about for a moment how sometimes in grief we imprison ourselves or in life we imprison ourselves?

Yeah. The biggest prison is in our own minds. And I ask never to minimize anything what happened in a concentration camp. That I was 16 years old in love and I had a boyfriend who told me I have beautiful eyes and beautiful hands. And I would say to myself, if I survive today, then tomorrow I'll be free. So I think your self dialogue is extremely difficult to really just be your own observer, which I ask you to be because that way you can really realize that maybe this is not the best way to be, that we can still improve. So my name is not a shrink, but a stretch. You know that you stretch your comfort zone right now this is time out to develop, to develop the skills that you're gonna be angry, but don't get stuck there. Because when you're angry, you're still a prisoner.

And I wonder why in grief. So many people I work with, and I kind of think part of it is our old wounds. But after 40 years of marriage or having a child die something horrific, you've been a good wife, you've been a good husband, you've been a good parent, and they die. You turn on yourself and go, if I hadn't made that call or why did I let them ride a bike? It's amazing the cruelty to a bereaved person that we inflict upon ourselves.

You go into the what if? And all you can say, if I knew then what I know now.

I could have done things differently. So guilt and love does not coexist. If you have fear, you're not gonna have love. I think it's very important to really pay attention what you're paying attention to any behavior you Pay attention to you. Reinforce the very behavior that you want extinguished.

And also there is a secondary gain. Because when you're a victim, you're going to find the victimizer. There is no victim without the victimizer. And while you blame, you're still a child.

So you can have an over invested conscience and then you turn against yourself.

I don't think God wants us to do that.

God gave us a choice to acknowledge that that spirit was sent to me maybe for an hour, maybe for two years, maybe 22 years. And I'm choosing to put the picture out and talk about my child rather than just kind of pretend that I'm moving on. You never forget, you never overcome.

It's called the cherished wound. Part of me is an Auschwitz, not the better part. I showed you.

But I don't run from it anymore as I did.

I am me off stage or on stage. And I don't really talk about why this or why that. Because why is in the past. Why is a problem oriented world. I like what is going on. What is in the present and how is a solution oriented word. I am in the what and how rather than the why. Because.

Let'S do one more question if that's okay. Naomi, I'm going to have you come on to ask a question. You'll be coming on in a second.

You should be able to turn your camera on and unmute in a moment. And if you want, there you go. Now if you're just unmute there.

Hi Naomi, what's your question?

Hi David.

I've been with you since March. It's such an honor.

Are you in the free group or tender hearts or both?

Both.

Oh, good, good.

Thank you for everything. And doctor, such an honor to be with you as well. My grandmother is 93 and she's also a Holocaust survivor. And she raised me. And I have two very simple questions for you. What do you think is the meaning of life? Why are we here? Why do we go through this? And also, do you believe that you will see your loved ones again? And do you have contact with them? Do you experience communication with them? Do you feel them?

You know, I don't know much about the computer at all. But my precious.

Person, Katie. Katie, she's assistant. I put pictures and I see my parents every morning.

I see pictures of my parents.

And I celebrate every moment that they have given me. Even though my mother told me, I'm glad you have brains because you have no looks. Because I had beautiful sisters and I became a very erudite teenager. I was A Zionist with my boyfriend. And we were going to go to Palestine. I studied the Interpretation of dreams by Freud. You know, it was a different way. But I get up every morning knowing.

That I was left here.

To practice my calling. It's not a job. And many people can do what I can do, but not the way I can do that. I am unique, one of a kind. Naomi. And hope you are, too. If you had red hair in Hungary, you had to be Jewish. And when I came to America, I worked in a factory. And somebody was redheaded next to me. And she beat me up because she was Irish. And I dared to think of her as being Jewish. So I don't know where you are in your life, but the question is, again, not why me, but what now?

There is so much ahead of us. Every moment is precious. We don't appreciate what we have until we lose it.

I eat up everything. I was working all afternoon because my daughter likes my Hungarian.

It's called trapanka with sauerkraut because she's flying back tonight. So, yes, I am a Jewish mother, and I love food. But most of all, this is the soul food. And I hope that you are connected with your soul. We have the genes. I cannot change that. We have the environment. I can choose how I respond to the other two.

When I came to America and I went to the bathroom in 1949, one of them said, colored. And after Nazi Germany and Communist Russia, how do you think I felt?

Syllabus is not what you feel. It's what you do. I joined the naacp. I was with Martin Luther King in Washington. I got a hug, and I sang with the mamas and the papas. You're too young for that.

I met them.

So, again, love is not what you. You know, love. Love is my definition of. Love is the ability to let go. Let go of the part of you who may be keeping you hostage or prisoner of the best.

Beautiful.

Thank you.

And just incidentally, about the redheaded Hungarian. I'm the only blonde in my family. And my grandma calls me her shiksa girl.

Thank you very much, Naomi.

Thank you. Tomorrow there.

Yes.

All right, so last question as we begin to wrap up here. And I so appreciate your time.

You know, when our loved ones die, their earthly story is over. And so many people that I work with, the work is about helping them get unstuck. And they have forgotten that there's a reason for them to be here. And they think being alive or happy again would be disloyal. Can you talk about that for A moment?

Yes. You know, when I spoke to those people who were dead with their loved ones and a picture and I said something like, is it possible that you may go to a wedding and your husband wants you to go and dance with him?

And she said, no, I would think that I'm cheating on my son if I go dancing.

What do you say to them?

I say we have a distorted feeling of loyalty, that we think loyalty is not living again.

Yeah, but no one dies, you know, that makes our loved ones die for no reason.

You know, it was just so hard for me to see that beautiful couple. And I go to the wedding, and she's afraid.

To stay in the present.

So I do work with you beautifully. You and I are a good team, and I continue hopefully to do this again.

I hope so, too. You are a gift. So your words have just. So many people have talked about what a gift you are, and I want to thank you for your generosity of time. Thank Katie for always bringing this, bringing us together. She's our angel that gets us together, makes it happen. All right. Thank you so much for all of you here. I so appreciate you being here. And please know there's many, many resources that you can find@grief.com if you want to know about our free grief group that started after Covid, please check that out. Tender Hearts is there. We're going to have information soon about the writing through Grief. Thank you so much, Dr. Edie. You're a gift. I so appreciate you all.

Love to you.

All right, bye. Bye. Love you.