Katherine Schwarzenegger Pratt & grief expert, David Kessler discuss forgiveness, pet loss & grief.

Hey, everyone. Welcome, welcome. Find your way on. I'm David Kessler. I'm here with Katherine. Hey, Katherine.

Hi. How are you?

I'm good. So good to see you.

Good to see you, too.

So people will say hello as they come on, and I'm really glad you're here today, and I been looking forward to this talk, so I think it's going to be a really important one.

Oh, great. Me, too.

And as people come on say hello, so I'll know we're broadcasting out there in the world, and I'll see if I can't find us. All right, I see us coming on. Sandra's here from New York. There's a thing. It was before your time. Catherine called Romper Room, and the Romper Room teacher used to pretend like she could see people. So I look at my phone as if I see Sandra in New York, and I see Jennifer in Princeton, New Jersey. Sherry's in New York. Well, we got a lot of New York in the house tonight, Colleen.

Love it.

Lots of folks coming on there.

So I never used this app before, so I don't even know how you even, like, see people, but it's great. I'm so thrilled.

Yeah, it's funny, you just see people from all over the world. Maryland, California, Rochester, New York. Betty's from Ohio. Wonderful, wonderful. So people come on, they say hello, and, you know, this is a group. We've all in this group had a lot of loss and are dealing with that, and forgiveness comes up so much. So, so glad you're here with me today to talk about this.

So one of the things that I like to do at the beginning is since we're here because loved ones have died, I like to just take a moment in honor of them in silence, just to remember, send them love and let them know they're not forgotten. So if everyone who's on would join me in that.

Thank you for doing that.

So, Katherine, I. I gotta tell you, I fell in love with who you are because people know you as an author, animal rights advocate, animal lover, animal rescuer. And I was doing disaster work in Texas in Hurricane Harvey. And I'm bringing people during the day, like, up to my waist in water, to their homes, and it was so heartbreaking. And I remember at the end of one day, just to get my mind off things, I'm scrolling through social media, and there you were talking about the dogs in Houston that needed homes. Like, oh, my gosh, I love her.

That was. I mean, just like, there you are in the animal world making sure. They're protected and taken care of.

Yeah. That was a big, a big moment in the animal world, especially in the animal rescue world of just, you know, trying to help out and be there and as hands on as possible and talk about the importance of the animal rescue, but also the importance of finding homes and shelters for all these animals who had been left behind and separated from their families and their owners. So it was a crazy experience, but one I'm really fortunate to have been a part of, to really be there and to see all the incredible work.

People in Houston were doing that was just so wonderful. And I just, I see all your work all the time and it's just so great. Obviously you met Lucy and I'm. I'm a big animal lover.

Yes. Love her.

You know, the other thing is Mother's Day is coming up in just a few days. And I have been without a mother since I was 13. And one of the things I'm always shocked about is, is because I've dealt with that loss. I don't think of all the things a mother does. Like, I often tell the story, a friend of mine was fired who was 45 years old, and he came home when he called his mom. And I never thought about, oh my gosh, if I ever get fired. Like, I don't have a mom. And your mom.

One of the things I love that, you know, all authors, I hope they admit it, but maybe they don't. When a book comes out, and you've had many books come out at this point, when a book comes out, you just naturally go into a bookstore and just look at the placement and see where it is. And of course you're like, oh, I want to just turn it face out or something. I have had to do that for myself. Your mom not only goes into a bookstore and makes sure your book is prominently featured, but what I love is the salesperson or the bookstore person literally went up to her and said, you can't do that.

Yeah.

Your mom said, no, no, no, you don't understand. This is my daughter.

Yeah. No, that's my daughter's book. Yeah. It's very. A thing in my family to do. My grandmother used to do that all the time. Whenever my mom had a book come out, my grandma, she used to live in D.C. and she would go into all the bookstores and she would go make sure that my mom's books were right front and center. And the people at the store would always explain to her that that's real estate in a bookstore, that the publishing Houses purchase and that. It's a very coveted thing. And she would say, no, no, this is my daughter's book. It needs to be right in the front when you walk in so people can see it and see the importance of her book and what she's saying. And so my mom has started doing that as well. And we all do it. Whenever anybody in our family comes out with a book, we always run to the bookstore and try to replace everything to make sure people can see, because there are so many books out there, as you know, that it's, you know, what catches your eye is really important in the placement of it. So that's a very. A very maternal thing for my mom to do. And she's the best.

And the thing is, I love. She doesn't go, I'm Maria Shriver, which. She could play the mom card.

Oh, yeah.

Understand. I'm a mom, and this is my daughter that's so sweet about it.

Yeah, she's the best.

So when we talk about the idea of loss, your family has just as many people here, but your family, very openly has experienced so much loss. You know, there's just been so many loss in the Kennedy family over the years that we're all so aware of. Given that you're such an animal rights advocate and such a love of animals, I'm wondering, is there a loss of one of your dear animals that really has just stuck with you and touched you so much?

Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, dealing with loss is something, unfortunately, that in our family, we've had to experience from a very early age. And I think that, you know, my parents, my mom especially, has always wanted to have a very healthy communication and open dialogue about that. And I know that you do so much incredible work to continue that and spread awareness about the importance of that, because it is such an important part of. Of life and one that, you know, most. Some people don't experience until later in life, and other people experience it at various phases in life. And so it is such a. It's such a pivotal thing that happens in all of our lives, unfortunately. And to be able to have a healthy communication around it, whether it's family members, loved ones, friends, or pets. You know, that's something that I think a lot of people who have. Are animal lovers and have animals in their lives will talk about, you know, the greatest losses of their lives being experienced when they lose a dog or a cat or any animal that they have that's near and dear to their heart. And I was, you know, trying to think about a time that I had lost, you know, an animal. And I've always grown up around a lot of different animals. I. My parents are huge animal lovers, which I think is such a huge blessing for a child to grow up in that kind of an environment and be taught about responsibility and, most importantly, unconditional love. And I grew up with dogs and riding horses. And I remember. I remember getting my first pony that was this really old, older horse. And she had a big gash on her. On her face, a big scar. And when I saw her at the barn one day, I asked about her, and I was, I think 11 or 12 at the time, and I asked about her. She was so interesting looking, and I was told that she was really.

Really afraid and really skittish and head shy because she had been abused when she was younger and someone had hit her in the face. And so she never let anybody come near her face. And that if I wanted to ever show competitively, which I did, that I would never win anything if I rode her because she wasn't considered to be perfect looking. And so, of course, I, you know, jumped right into falling in love with her. And I worked really hard to.

Regain her trust and just the trust of a horse trusting a human being. And she let me rub all over her face and just love her. And as I got older in high school, I got too tall to ride her, so I would go and, you know, I walk her around, and I would take her to horse shows with me and just have her there as, you know, emotional support. And I would sit in her stall and do my homework, and I would, you know, go in her stall and just talk to her like a girlfriend and.

Brandy, right?

Brandy. Yeah, her name was Brandy. And I had such a strong and deep connection to her. And when I was a senior in high school, she started. She was very old at that point, and she started getting a little sick. And I remember sitting in my Spanish class, and nothing had been wrong with her, but I remember sitting in my Spanish class, and all of a sudden I had a tear coming down from my eye, and I didn't know what it was because we weren't allowed to have our cell phones in school. And so I went and I checked my cell phone. I asked if I could go to the bathroom. I checked my cell phone, and I saw I had several missed calls from my riding teacher. And I called her, and they said that they had rushed Brandy to the emergency room because they found her laying down in her stall, and she didn't look well. And so I left school and my mom and I went there and we got to this, this horse hospital, equine hospital, which was so incredible just to see what goes on there. But my, she ended up being very sick and she had a lot of bleeding internally and my mom and I were there. And my mom also used to ride horses when she was younger and she talks about the loss of. Always talks to us kids about losing her first horse and what a heartbreaking experience that was. So I knew that it was going to be a challenging experience for me. And, and I remember the vet coming to us and saying, you need to make a decision here about whether or not you want to put your horse down or if you want us to keep trying to, you know, keep her alive, even though we don't think it's going to work. And after a while, I just made the decision and my mom told me that I needed to make the decision for myself, which was at 17 or 18, a lot of pressure for me to try and felt like a lot of pressure. I'm really happy that she did have me do that, of course, looking back on it. But I chose to put her down and it was the most heartbreaking and devastating experience that I had experienced at that point. And it was so traumatic for me to have this loss and also to feel responsible for making that decision. And I. When people now tell me that they've lost a pet or anything, you know, people oftentimes try to desensitize that because it's not a human being. But the loss that you feel when you, you know, lose an animal or lose a pet for a lot of us is like losing a human being. And you have those, you know, really strong emotional connections. And for a lot of people, it's stronger than the emotional connections that they have with other human. So it really.

Was a really eye opening experience for me and one that I constantly think about and I always think about her with love. But it was definitely a very challenging experience for me when it comes to losing an animal.

And thank you for sharing all that. And I think it's, you know, people, number one, we want to compare griefs, we want to judge griefs. And number one, I always say the worst grief is yours. And I can't tell you how many times over the years someone will go, I've had this loss, I've had that loss. But the worst loss was actually my pet. But I don't want to tell anyone that it was my dog because they're, they almost feel like A weird shame that, like. And I'm. And I say your dog, like, has been at your door and your side for 17 years.

Right.

Why would you minimize.

Right.

You know, so it's unconditional love. You know, my. My take on our animal loved ones are if the love is real, the grief is real.

So true.

So thank you for all that. And like I said, you're. You're. You're great on loss. Your mom is. It was funny when she was doing the forward to one of my books, someone said, should we prep her on how to do this? I went, no. She's.

Unfortunately. Tell me you've done a lot of work on forgiveness.

Yes.

You've been doing. You've written an amazing book on it. I'm just curious, like, as that book is now behind you in terms of writing it and listening to the stories, what, like, really grabbed you or was there anything unexpected that you learned about forgiveness?

Yeah, I mean, there was a lot unexpected that I.

Just really, you know, understanding and shifting in my mind that forgiveness is a gift that you give yourself and has nothing to do with another person I think is the biggest takeaway for me personally. I always grew up with the understanding that forgiveness had to be between two people, and you needed to wait for someone to come and ask you for forgiveness in order to start your forgiveness journey. And when I was really struggling in my kind of mid-20s with my forgiveness journey in a variety of different ways, I would talk to other people about their experiences with forgiveness. And I quickly learned that a lot of the people who had been able to successfully practice forgiveness really had decided to take power into their own hands and give themselves the gift of forgiveness, freedom and the gift of forgiveness, and have been able to live really free and incredible lives after being able to do that. And so I learned a huge amount in that way, of course. And I also learned, you know, especially from doing the book and also doing a virtual book tour, which it turned out to be because of quarantine. I talked to a ton of people, and we have an incredible Facebook group of forgiveness ambassadors that, you know, has been in a whole online forum for people to talk about their forgiveness struggles, ask questions, talk about their journey, ask for advice from other people. And a lot of the way people had dealt with their forgiveness journey really was very similar to how people go through these stages of grief. And people actually, a lot of the time had compared it to that when. When they were explaining to me, having experienced grief and also forgiveness journey of, you know, going through these different emotions and Feelings and then being able to get to a place in the end of forgiveness and also knowing that there is no right or wrong way to do it. There is only your way. And so I think that those are probably my biggest takeaways from my whole experience releasing this book.

I think for people who are dealing with a loss, it's so painful already. And when that person says the wrong thing at the funeral, which now we can't have funerals, but the wrong thing, or someone doesn't show up the way we thought they would, it just feels like the wounds even bigger. And it's so important, like, you know, that it's not about the other person, but people always want to know, should I confront that person? Should I talk to them? Should I say how much it hurt me? Any thoughts on that that you've learned from all this?

Well, I think it's really, you know, what I did learn is that it's unique to every single person's situation. Some people get huge clarity and relief after being able to confront someone in person or write them a letter, send them an email, and not expect anything in return, or. Whereas other people have been able to go through their forgiveness journey never having been able to speak to the person again, and they've been able to come out the other side fully able to forgive. So I think it depends on the kind of person that you are, also your situation. A lot of people have talked to me about going through their forgiveness struggle with a parent or a loved one that's no longer on this earth, and the challenge that comes with that and, you know, just not even having the option to sit and talk to somebody about whatever your forgiveness journey is about with them. And other people find it incredibly therapeutic and cathartic to be able to write notes or emails or a mock conversation, or even call someone up and have a conversation with them. And the examples of people that I have in my book are 22 stories of, you know, different people's experiences with forgiveness, because some people never confronted the person, whereas other people, you know, wrote emails, sent those emails, picked up the phone and called somebody, went to someone and asked for forgiveness. So it really is so up to you and up to each and every single person's unique decision. And I think that that's a amazing and exciting part of forgiveness, but also a really daunting and scary part because there is no, you know, one way or roadmap to doing it.

I think one of the surprises for me, dealing with loss, when my younger son died, there was a number of People. I mean, there was a friend who did not show for the funeral, and I was just beside myself. I just couldn't believe that. And I was so angry for a while, and I thought I just. I got. I have to, like, just deal with my anger and let it out just so I could begin to have a conversation with them. And when I had a conversation with them, first of all, they were shocked that I noticed they weren't there there because they said, oh, my gosh, there were so many people I would assume were there. Like, why would you even. I didn't even think you'd notice. To them not being there was so much about their. Paul, their pain tolerance, their history with grief, their history with loss. It really didn't have anything to do with me. Now, of course it impacted me, but it wasn't to me. They didn't do it to me. But I think we feel like it's done to us, don't we?

Yeah. I mean, for sure. I think there are a lot of people that feel like, you know, certain things are done to them, and they are. And then there are other people that think that, you know, they're, as you were saying earlier, their forgiveness or their grief is worse than the next person's. And, you know, I always like to say to people that read, especially that read this book, because there are incredibly inspiring and just outstandingly painful and remarkably insane stories that I've included in this book of what people have gone through. And some people read that book and they say, like, oh, my God, wow. If Elizabeth Smart was able to forgive her captors, like, you know, it's nothing. What I've experienced, and what I always like to say to people is, you know, that I hope people look at those stories and feel inspired by people's experiences and not a need to compare their forgiveness journey or their pain in that, because everyone's pain is their pain. And it's totally valid and justified. No matter how little you feel like the offense is or how big you feel like the offense is, everyone's pain is valid. And so I always. You know, I never like to get into a place of comparing any sort of hurt or pain or.

You know, grief, forgiveness, whatever it is, because I think, you know, your pain is. Is your pain. And it's really important to. To validate that, to feel it and to not ever diminish it.

And I'll tell you, my friend said to me, oh, my gosh, it. It just breaks my heart that I might have caused you a moment of pain. It was Sort of, you know, I realized how unaware she was that she might be hurting me. So it was just an interesting lesson for me. Can we do a few questions from. Yes.

Great.

One question is, Deanie says, do you have a process for forgiving? Did you sort of see people, do they have a process, a way they do it, or is it different for everyone?

It is really different for everyone. I think that the first thing that everyone had universally though, was just being open to welcoming forgiveness into their lives. I think we all know certain people in our lives that are very closed off to ever experiencing forgiveness for certain situations. I know that there are plenty of people that I know that, you know, the idea of forgiving a parent or a family member or a old friend.

Is absolutely a non negotiable thing and very close off to that idea. So I think first of all, if people are open to the idea of experiencing forgiveness, bringing it into their lives and going on a forgiveness journey, that's the number one most important step. And then I would say what you choose to do from there is really so up to you. I, you know, I think just first of all, again, adding value to your pain, to your hurt, and then having a desire to no longer want it, to dictate your life moving forward is such a huge part of, you know, the desire to forgive, the choice to get to a place of forgiveness and to really go through that journey. Because for some of us, forgiveness is, you know, an instant thing and you're done with it. And then for a lot of us, like myself, it's an ongoing journey and an ongoing process. So it is very unique to every single person and situation.

I feel that way. It's like an onion. There's always another layer. You know, someone goes, I feel like I've completely forgiven that person. And someone goes, if they walked in there, I'm like, wait, if they had the nerve. And then I'm like, oh, I got more work to do now.

I know, I know.

I feel that people have questions about a loved one who's died by addiction. You know, I think we have so many old beliefs that people choose addiction and they could just say no. And we're realizing now that, you know, an addiction you can't just say no to, and it's an illness in our mind that needs treatment and is there's often times that people do die despite everyone's best efforts. Did you encounter any of that? People being dealing with forgiveness of a loved one who's dying, dealing with an addiction alive, or addiction that they've died from.

Yeah, I actually interviewed a couple people for my book that were in. One of them was actually in. In AA and went through treatment, went through her full steps and talked about forgiveness in that journey. And then also I interviewed Devon Franklin, who is an incredible, incredible man and just has amazing life stories. And he actually lost his father, and his father was an alcoholic. And so he talked a lot about the anger that he carried around towards his father even after his dad died. And his dad passed away when he was very young. And so he was a young African American man who grew up without a father and. And had a lot of anger towards his dad about leaving him, you know, choosing to drink, choosing alcohol over his family. And he talked a lot about getting to a place in his life where he wanted to release that anger and release that tension. And it was also coming out misdirected towards his mother, you know, who he realized was just doing her best and was just trying to be the best mom that she could be. And he talked about going through his whole forgiveness journey to get to a place of ultimately forgiving his father, even though he had, you know, passed away, going through the forgiveness journey to release that anger and tension that he was carrying around every single day directed towards his father, who was no longer on this earth. So I think, you know, addiction is incredibly complicated. It's really challenging. And when you lose a loved one to addiction, I think that, you know, anger is a huge emotion that comes up as you talk about, and I totally understand that, and I get that, and that's totally, you know, valid. And then you talk to somebody like Devon Franklin, who. Who speaks about having that anger and carrying that anger and then reaching a place in his life where he wanted to release that anger because he no longer wanted to bring it into his future with him. And it's a beautiful journey of forgiveness.

That. That is what I love about the stories that. The stories you've written take us on a journey with people. They're not, you know, here's what you need to do. It's that we get to take, you know, and I think this is so challenging when you're talking about the world of loss, because I certainly believe if a loved one's died and you say something sincerely in your heart, that they'll still hear it in theirs.

And.

And I think we often have that anger to get through, and it's often at that person.

Who'S died, and that's so challenging. But I feel like if we can find a way in our own time at our own pace to do that forgiveness work. We'll be connected only in love. And. And I just love you are bringing more love to the world.

Oh, thank you.

Appreciate you doing that and especially to our little four legged friends. I don't know where my Lucy is, but she's somewhere around here. And.

I want to just thank you for everything you do. And would you tell people where to get the book about the group? You mentioned how we can learn more about all the work you're doing.

Yes. So the book, actually I have one here, so I'll show it. The book is called the Gift of Forgiveness. It is.

Thank you. It's available in bookstores, but most are closed right now. So it's available online at Amazon. I also am selling or the book is being also sold on a website called bookshop.org, which is doing a lot of work to support local bookstores across America that are currently closed and having a really hard time. So I love to direct people to that as a place to buy not only my book, but also a bunch of other books. And. And if you want to become a member of the Forgiveness Ambassadors Facebook page, you can just go onto Facebook and search Forgiveness Ambassadors or the title of my book and you'll be directed to that page to talk about all things forgiveness.

That's really, really wonderful. And I so appreciate you all that you're doing and helping people and I admire your work with animals. I got my Lucy here. Let me see if I can get her.

Hi to everyone.

So cute.

This is my little lap dog and it's so funny that like she thinks it's still cute, baby. And yeah, I love it. It's about 65 pounds sitting right here with me.

Anyway, thank you for all your work. I so appreciate it. You are a gift to so many.

Oh, thank you so much to your.

Family for me and thank you for coming on. I really appreciate it.

Oh, thank you for having me. And congratulations on having this whole thing going while you're in quarantine. And also just doing such amazing work to help people through a variety of complicated things in their lives, especially grief, because it is very challenging.

Well, and I hope that everyone who's watching knows that people like you are showing up because we want to let people know when their grief groups have been shut down, when their loved ones were there and you couldn't even say goodbye to them or have a funeral. That is the world's talking about reopening. We understand it's not that easy for you to move on. So we're here for you. So thank you for showing up for everyone here.

Oh, thank you. Thank you so much.

All right, Katherine, be well and I'll talk to you soon.

Okay, Bye. Thank you.

Thank you. All right, I want to tell everyone about the folks who are coming on. We're going to have tomorrow night, Susie Orman will be here. Susie's going to be talking about finances and grief and dealing with whether it's you got estate issues or how to deal with bills and a pandemic. Susie Orman will be here to help you with that. And then the night after that, we're going to have Will Reeve coming on. And Will, obviously is Christopher's son. And so you still hear Lucy in the background there. So really wonderful people are showing up because you matter. I'm on every day at 1pm Join me. And we talk about it's 1pm Pacific time. We talk about the challenges and how to deal with the pain. At night, we have someone like Catherine and other wonderful people who share their stories of grief and give you some tools to help out. All right, thank you so much for being here, and I will see you all tomorrow. Take care.