Tom Zuba and David Kessler on the loss of a loved one

We'll get to all of you once I give everyone a chance to come on and find us live.

It's always a challenge to find these lives. Sometimes I'm even looking to find them.

Tom, how are you tonight?

I am doing well. Really looking forward to our time together tonight.

I'm glad you're here. I'm glad you're here. It's going to be fascinating. I've been looking forward to it also.

Thank you.

Thank you. When you come on, say hello. So we. We know we're actually live. Just to double check it all.

All right, let's see if I can see anyone on my phone. Someone said to me the other day.

It looks like you're not paying attention, just like I have a phone here. So I'm not. I'm not doing paperwork as I'm doing this. I'm actually checking the phone to see you all. Janice is here from Vegas. Brenda. She says hello to both of us. Hey, Ben Decker. Ben Decker was on the other night about meditation, which was really wonderful.

Yes, I saw parts of that.

Mimsy's here from San Francisco. Shirley from PA all right. Shannon from Connecticut. Sandra from New York. If you haven't been on with us before, just in this era of disconnection, I say hello to people and just to feel a sense of connection. So if you're new, you're welcome to say hello. You don't have to. You can be in the background and watch whatever you want. All right, let's see. We got a bunch of people here. Shannon, Connecticut. Sandra, New York. Shelley from Parsippany. Kinoko from Hawaii. Bunny from Michigan. Mary Beth. Says, David and Tom, your books have been a lifeline through my grief. Oh, thank you.

Thank you. I'm glad.

Marilyn. Hey there. Maureen. Nappersville, Illinois.

Hi. Maureen.

Kenny from Puerto Rico. Anna. Tom Zuba. Love you. All right, cj, Pennsylvania, Maryland, California. Diane, Southern California. Jody, San Diego. Diane, Massachusetts. Dooley from Canada. Welcome. I'm so glad you're all here and finding us. And it means we're actually broadcasting live. So I'm so glad that's happening and we get to be together here. Tom.

This is what I love about social media. I mean, we get to create this virtual circle that literally can extend all around the world.

It is amazing. And I'm sure at some point we'll have someone hopping on from Russia and Australia, and that's the amazing thing, like you say about this. So for those of you who are just joining me for the first time, I come on 1pm every day Pacific time, 4pm Eastern. This is in response to COVID 19. So many people were home alone, isolated. And I'm sure, as Tom and I can both tell you, and you all already know, grief is isolating on a good day, in a normal world, in a pandemic. The idea that you're alone broke my heart. So I started this group and to be like a support group. So a couple of things about that. We voted early on. No memes and no links. There's plenty of groups that are all memes, all links. We're actually trying to talk to one another here and communicate. So just know if a link or a meme gets taken down, it's not personal. Some people have put inappropriate things up and we can't check every link to see where it's really going. The other thing is, I hate to say this, in this world, we had someone posing as someone in grief, making comments. It was a phony person. It wasn't even a real person. After making about three sympathetic comments, they would say, let's talk privately. So there is no reason to talk to anyone outside this group unless you know them. So I hate to say that there's scammers in the world that come into a grief group, but apparently there is. So I don't want you to talk to anyone who's not a real profile. That's why we don't let any pages in. You have to be a person here. And we reported them to Facebook. So just know we're trying to be as on top of that as possible.

Also in the evening, like Tom is our guest tonight. Tom's volunteering his time tonight. So many people are volunteering their time because on this, you know, group that I started, I don't want to be the only voice. There's no right way to grieve. There's no one person to hear from. There's so many voices in grief, and I'm learning so much through this process, and I hope you are. So we're all here because someone we know died. So I like to start just as a little tradition with a moment of silence for all those we loved to stop and just take a moment to send our love to them in their absence, at least physical absence. Thank you.

Thank you so much for doing that with me. It always connects me and grounds me and reminds me why I'm here.

So tonight we have Tom Zuba. I'm so excited you're here.

I'm just going to let you dive in, Tom. You're. You're A grief coach. You know this world like I do, personally and professionally. We're not academic grievers, we're, we're people who have like experienced this. So I would love if you would just share unfortunately, how you came into the world of grief.

Absolutely. I consider myself a student of grief. And that journey began when I was 6 years old. My little brother Daniel Patrick died the day after his baptism.

And having grown up with that, I have to be honest, it never ever, ever, ever occurred to me that one of my children could die. I mean I knew children died, but never did it occur to me that one of mine could or would. But in 1990, our first child, my 18 month old daughter Erin died really really suddenly of something called hemolytic uremic syndrome. Mean I have never heard of that. My wife and I went on to have two sons.

And.

Unbelievably and remarkably, a couple of days after Christmas of 98, I called 911 and rode in an ambulance with Trish to the local hospital.

And on January 1st, New Year's Day of 1999, my 43 year old wife died. Honestly, as suddenly as our daughter died. And what was fascinating to me is that the next day, January 2nd, would have been our daughter's 10th birthday. And I was aware of that. I thought that is not a coincidence.

So I had a three year old and a seven year old staring at me and I became the mommy and the daddy and.

We.

I know a lot of people don't like the term new normal, but I found a new normal. And I actually really loved being third dad and life was pretty darn good. And two days after my oldest son had started seventh grade, he had a seizure in the middle of the night. And about a month later he was diagnosed with something called a glioblastoma. Now back then I did not know what a glioblastoma is now, or I didn't know what it was then. But now I hear about them more and more and more often and it's a terminal brain cancer.

So.

This was my third go round.

And.

The medical professional said there is no hope, there is no hope. So I believed them, that they had no hope to offer me. So I tried everything, I mean I tried everything I possibly, possibly could. And the end of the story is my 13 year old son died anyway. You know, Rory died six months later. And then interestingly, just about a year ago, a year ago April 8th, my 88 year old dad died. And I was with him when he died. He died two days after his birthday. And his death was a beautiful, peaceful death. It was the first time I had ever experienced that. And I'm so grateful to, you know, know firsthand that that that is.

You know, that is possible for some people. So in a nutshell, that's why I say I am a student of grief.

The decision I made after Rory died, I knew I could crawl myself. I knew I could crawl my way out of that deep, deep, deep, deep, deep, deep, deep, dark, seemingly endless pit of despair. I knew I could. I wasn't sure I wanted to. I wasn't sure I had the energy to do it again. But I thought, if I can do it one more time, then I'm going to use all the tools, all the resources, all the wisdom that I can gather along the way to try and help the next person. And that's what I've been doing for the last, you know, 10 plus years.

So, you know, it was interesting coming on with you earlier, doing the tech check. One of the things I found myself doing to you, what people do to me, is I thought, oh, my gosh, he's happy. He's happy. And I've had people in my world say, you're happy. And I'll go, yeah. And they'll go, but how can you be happy with a son who died? And I, I. I just always have to go in and go, well, I have. I have a million brutal moments. It's not like I'm happy all the time. It's brutal still in many ways, and I assume it always will be.

But I know my son would want me to be happy. So when I got on with you and thought about, oh, my gosh, two kids and a wife, what's he going to be like? And then I get this happy guy, and I'm like, he's happy. So.

What do you think? Because there's so many people on here who would love the idea of finding happiness again or finding hope again, or finding meaning, whatever that may be for them that just aren't able to grasp it.

And do you have any thoughts of why you've been able to, given those huge losses you've been through?

Absolutely.

I got sick and tired of being sick and tired. I mean, I.

Anyone that just heard what I said, anyone that really was able to take in the life that I've lived, you know, that I spent years in the deepest, darkest, seemingly bottomless pit of despair. I spent years there.

And there came a point where I thought, there has got to be something more. There has got to be something more So I literally. I mean, I literally made the decision. You know, I set the intention to figure out if healing is possible. And if it is possible, then how could I go about healing? And I want to preface that by saying, for me, I don't believe healing is a destination. I don't believe one day I'm going to go all done with that. I'm healed. For me, healing has now become my way of being in the world, and I am okay with that.

I want to dispel once and for all this notion that time heals all wounds. It does not. Yeah, it. What matters is what we do with our time. What we do with our time.

After my son, Rory, died, I literally. I mean, every time I drank water, I would say to myself, I. I am healing. I am healing. I am healing. Even if I didn't believe I was healing, because I believe that words have power. The words that we say can create our experiences. When I would walk, I would pound my heart and I would say, I am healing. I am healing. Some days I would say, I hope I'm healing. I'd like to be healing. I wish I believed I was healing. So I very, very, very. And I still do. I very actively participate in my healing. I also want to say, and I do kind of understand this, there's a lot of people.

That believe that somehow, if they're happy again, that they are disloyal, that they are being disloyal to the person they love that died. And what I say to them is based on my experience. As I healed more and more and more, I created more of an open space where I could actually connect with my loved ones. So the opposite was actually true for me, that the connection grew stronger and stronger the more I healed.

Yeah, I'm so in agreement. I can remember after my son died, I was in New York with my older son, and we were right by my publishing house, Simon and Schuster, and they said, stop by. And I went in there, and it was. It was sweeter than I would imagine a publisher would have been. I mean, they were just lovely. And they sat with me, and I can just remember sitting there crying, and the head was there, and she was just wonderful. And then fast forward. I remember going back maybe two years later with a broken arm and a broken rib and saying hello to her, and she goes, oh, my God, David, every time I see you, you're wounded. And I said to her, no, every time you see me, I'm healing. And it was interesting to sort of. I was like. I had a Different perception. When I sat there crying, I felt healing. When my shoulder. What? You know, I felt like it was healing. But it's interesting, that perception. One of the things I. I relate so much to what you say is. I often say what people think of my grief is none of my business. I don't really care what your opinion is. I mean, I'm amazed. And I don't know if you've gotten this over the years. I'll get an email from someone who go, I saw that picture of you in that brochure, and you're smiling. It's grief. You shouldn't be smiling. And I happen to know your son died. You should not be grinning like that. And I have to go, that's just noise. It's noise. It doesn't belong to me. It's all about them. I know my son. My son would never want to take away my smile. My son would so want my smile to continue what they think. I don't even let it in.

And for me, I mean, I really, really got to the point where I wanted to smile again.

I wanted.

The beiges and the muted colors of life to brighten up again. I wanted to see the blue sky and feel the sun and hear the birds. I wanted that for me. One of the things that I say when I work with people is, do you really, really believe you came to the planet to suffer? Is that why we came here? To suffer? And if. If you do, you know, how much longer? You know, three months, you know, six years? I don't want to suffer anymore. I have suffered enough. I think we all have, right?

And there is a wrestling that I think sometimes we do in our work and do with people and that I. It's interesting, I say the same thing in a different way. You know.

What. What words do you use?

Mine are, you're telling me your loved one's life was so precious and what a horrific act it is in the world that a precious life ended and that they were given this gift to be on the planet. And it is so devastating that their story is over. And I joined with you in the pain and fully grieving it. And your story actually isn't over yet. And if their life is precious, actually isn't yours. And I know with all my relatives and people I know who've died, I don't know anyone, that if there is a heaven and we get to reunite, that would go, oh, I'm so glad you grieved for 40 years. I mean, I love seeing you empty and heartbroken now. I'm not in any way bypassing pain. I have dark nights. I think we have to witness people's grief. We have to see their pain. There's not a spiritual bypass around it. But I think there is a moment that we have to go, is this.

Life really honoring them? Is this life what I came here to do?

I agree completely. I agree completely. And I'm also going to suggest that.

Even though for me, for me, even though my loved ones are not walking around on this planet in their physical bodies.

I believe that somehow, some way, they continue to impact me, and they continue to impact every single person that hears about them and that comes to know them. So through me, their story is not over either. And I like that. Like I said earlier, I do believe that words have power and. And this notion that.

People would ask me, have you moved on? Have you moved on? And when I really sat down and thought about it, it felt like moving on meant I had to put them in another box and leave the box behind me. So I like the words move with. I'm moving with them. I'm taking them with me. That seems very, very doable.

Right? And I certainly believe. And, you know, for me, it's part of my meaning that I say, you know, when a loved one dies, a part of us does die with them, but a part of them lives on in us. Am I nurturing that part of them? Am I nurturing the part of my son that lives on in me, of my parents? Am I connecting? Am I. You know, whatever it may be for each of us? So I want to. I want to go somewhere else with you. And I'll tell you, I heard you speak on this, and it's something that a lot of people don't dare say out loud.

Is that.

We live in a world, especially with parents who have had a child die, that will put a lot of energy into making sure other people know your grief is bad. I'm sorry for your grief. It's not like mine. This one is the worst one.

And you had a lot to say about that. So would you share with us your thoughts on that? Sure.

Underscoring that I really do believe words have power. The more I think about that, I think what those parents are actually saying is the grief that I'm experiencing as a result of my child's death is the worst thing. It's the most painful thing that I've ever experienced. I believe that. I honor that.

I agree.

Through my work. Oh, I had the most. I was given the most wonderful gift with a Friend of mine I know she won't mind. Her name is Maddie and she loves her mother. Loves, loves, loves. In fact, no coincidences, because I don't believe in coincidences. Maddie's mother died four years ago today. Maddie refers to her as Mommy. Maddie's an adult with several children. Her mommy's death was the most painful, brutal, agonizing thing she had ever, ever experienced. I'm not going to minimize that. The same is true for someone whose wife died or husband died, or father died, or sibling. We have nothing, nothing, nothing to gain by comparing whose pain is worse. If we learn nothing from this coronavirus.

Let us learn to build bridges and reach out and bring each other closer to me. When we compare pains, we're pushing people away and we're separating. There is nothing, nothing, nothing to be gained. I'm going to go back to where I start. I believe you when you say the pain I am experiencing is the worst pain I have ever, ever experienced. I never imagined anything was possible. Yes, yes.

So. But when that person.

Minimizes other griefs.

I actually.

I don't have any judgment on them. I have compassion because I think that actually causes them more pain because I think it causes a separation from others.

Not only that, but I believe in a self fulfilling prophecy. And if you really, really, really, really cling to that. Yes. I mean, you will go down, down, down, and you will attract people that will sit right next to you and you know, you will all stew, stew, stew in this intense pain that you continue to marinate in.

And I think the other thing that's important that I try to do in my work, if someone's in a group and says, can you, you know, when it's just not parents. I mean, a lot of people do this though, you know, can you believe her over there? She's going on and on about her husband dying. They were married for two years. You know, my husband and I were together for 40 years. That's real grief. I also have to remember part of what that person is saying, may be in the group in that moment, is that person's getting a lot of attention. For two years, I had 40. The translation I try to make is they may be saying my pain hasn't been witnessed enough. I'm needing my pain seen. Because a lot of times I won't go, oh well, you know, there's no comparison. I'll go, oh my gosh, 40 years and then your husband dies. Tell me about that pain.

Because I want to recognize they're not bad people. Comparing they're in pain and something has gone wrong in their healing that they've sort of turned it inward and separating from others.

Yeah. You hit on something really, really important. I believe that every single human being, regardless of where we are on our paths, we want to be seen and we want to be heard and we want to be honored exactly where we are. So talk about a shift in our perception. Yes. To hear that woman or that man saying, but I was with him or her for 40 years.

Right.

Could, could, could you just sit on the bench and hold that with me? Yeah. That's beautiful. That's beautiful.

You know the other thing, I don't know if you had this experience, but when my son died, not long after.

A good friend died, 43 years old of a flu, shockingly, who was very healthy. She was very healthy. And then our dog died of 17 years. And, you know, people were like, wait a minute, one's a dog, one's a friend. I mean, they're nothing compared to the big one you've been through. And I looked at the people who were crying about the friend and also crying about the dog going, I don't know how to look at you and go, your tears don't count. I mean, all tears count. So I think that's so important that since. And I also, I could not look at my son, my 22 year old son at the time who found his brother dead and ever look at him and go, yeah, but I'm a parent. This is real pain. I mean, there's no way. You know, I often think, and I try to explain this to people, I'm never going to know what it's like to have Rory die. And you're never going to know what it's like to have David die. I'm never going to know what it's like to have your house burned down, or having a wedding canceled because of a pandemic, or having your 17 year old dog die. I mean, whatever your grief is, is your worst grief.

Yes. It always makes me stop when someone says, I know exactly how you feel.

You know, there's a part of me that wants to go, really? You know, how could you possibly know how I feel? I certainly don't know how you feel. I'm willing to learn and I'm willing to listen if you trust me enough to share, but I don't know how you feel.

Yeah, it's funny, the words that get you, the two that get me are. One is when people go, oh, my goodness, a child dying, I can't imagine my Child dying. And first of all, I'll go. You don't have to. I'm right here. Just ask me any questions. I can tell you what it's like. And the other one, you know, I also have to think, you know, when you're going into. You can't imagine what your child would be like dying. You've actually left me. You're not there tending to me anymore. You're now, you know, in your own unimaginable world, picturing your worst scenarios. So, you know, it's interesting how some of those, the other ones, some. The of someone goes, there's got to be a reason for this. I'm like, yeah, what do you got? I want to hear your reason. Give me a good reason for this, you know, so it's interesting.

I think we. We do a really, really poor job of, number one, talking about grief, talking about the death of our loved ones and then supporting each other. I was just writing about this today. It's like when we need people, people the most, we are abandoned. I mean, that's how most of us do it in the US and, you know, throughout the world. That's awesome.

And that is why we have learned to find each other.

Yes.

Because we know that you're going to have a better understanding. If you've been through something, something similar, you're going to understand it.

And that's one of the blessings of being alive in 2020, because in 1990, when my daughter died, it was very. The resources out there were very, very, very limited. So, you know, I'm really grateful for all the ways we can connect with each other.

Yeah, I think about that. You know, I came out of my mother dying when I was 13 in a shooting, all within three days, one of the first mass shootings. And I, I there. You know, in some ways, I think I became, and I think this is probably true for you. I be. Almost became someone that could have helped me because there wasn't anyone back then. You know, even Kubler Ross hadn't came along at that point. So, you know, it's just interesting that there was, you know, nothing. And now at least we have technology that we can view each other this way.

And I do think that we are to some extent, getting more comfortable talking about the experience, at least among ourselves.

Right.

And we're. All right, someone, let's see this.

Oh, people are talking here. It's like, I wish I could read all the comments. So one of the things that I just saw is someone talking. I can't even get the Gist of it, but about getting over a loss. You know, I think you kind of alluded to this. I'm not someone who believes we get over it. I don't believe we recover from it. Our loved ones are in a cold or a flu. I use the terminology pretty close to yours. I want to move forward with my son's love with my son, you know.

And I would want someone to paint a picture of what, get over the death. It's like, what does that look like to you? What does that feel like? I'm not really sure. Can we learn to live full lives again? Yes, I believe we can.

I love when I get to do something and I have a few family members and I even have the family member there or the friend there who wants them to move on. And I get to say to that person, tell me what moving on is. Yeah, they'll go, well, I want her to move on. And I'll say, so you can have what? And they'll go, I want my old friend back. And I'll go, she would love to be who she was. If only we could bring her loved one back to life. She would love it. Tom, wouldn't you love to be who you were? I would love to be who. But people have died. We've changed. There's no going back. If we could, we would.

Yes. Yeah.

Right.

So I would love if folks have questions for Tom to post them now and we'll do. I'm sure you're up for doing questions, right, Tom?

Absolutely. Yes.

All right. And Tony says, let's not forget all the different types of grief folks are experiencing now. Know, it's interesting, I did a thing with the Kubler Ross foundation this morning that I talked about. Grief is actually of. We have this one word that fits so many losses that it almost does become inadequate. It is too bad we don't have others that fully do it, but they are all griefs. But I think sometimes we think that one grief takes away from another. Someone who has to cancel their graduation and is sad or cancel a wedding is sad.

That gets to exist on its own. It doesn't take away from my pain.

A student who's not going to be able to go back in the classroom and see their friends and teacher again. Someone who is worried that they're not going to make the mortgage payments, Someone who's lost their job, Someone who's afraid their car is going to be repossessed. Yes. Anytime we've held onto a dream and that dream ends or drastically, drastically changes, we experience Grief, it's part of being human.

And we have to not only grieve that person, but grieve that future. We're never going to have that idealized future, maybe even that idealized person we were. You know, I, I, I, you know, there's a, there's an alternate reality where, where my parents are living to 80 years old and 85 and 90, and my kids are alive and healthy. And I'd love to have that altered reality. So Gloria says, does talking about pain help with getting to a better point? I was told not to speak about pain or negativity because it brings power to pain. So at some point I get confused. Losing my son ruined my place in life. Being a mom was my pride and joy. It's a great question, Tom.

So this is how I would respond to that. And I think we're very similar on this, David. But when I talk about grief, I talk about what's happening inside of us. That grief is that internal response to the end of our dream. And grief expresses itself in countless ways. We all experience grief. If we want to heal, we have to mourn. That's why I called my first book Permission to Mourn. And to me, mourning is getting that grief up and out, up and down, out, up and out. Do we have to talk about our pain? In my opinion, yes, yes, yes. Talk about it, shout about it, cry about it. If you're an artist, draw about it, run about it, dance about it, beat a drum about it. Do not keep it inside of you when we repress it and deny it and pretend it's not there, going to eat us alive. I get what that person is talking about.

You know, what we focus on expands. I think this is different. I think this is making sure that we get it up and out with the intention of healing. It's. Why are we doing this? Because we want to heal. We want to open up a space.

And I would add to that, look, my best friend of 30 years was Louise Hay, the queen of affirmations. And a lot of people projected stuff onto Louise that wasn't even true. When they heard we were writing a book on grief, they're like, how could Louise think of writing a book on grief? Is she even going to die? And Louise was like, well, of course I'm going to die. I've even asked David to be there. I mean, she was very open about that. And I think one of the things the self help movement has negatively done is we're the first generation that has feelings on feelings. We think we're sad, but we shouldn't be sad, or we're angry, but that's inappropriate. And, you know, to this person, I would say grief is a very organic experience. I mean, you come from a long line of dead people. All your ancestors died. We know how to do this. The reality is, if your soul and your heart is telling you to cry, your job that day is to cry. If it's telling you to be okay, then your job is to be okay. But we get in this place where we're like, all right, what, Tom? What feelings should I have? And I shouldn't tell anyone what feelings they have. You shouldn't tell anyone. We should all be honoring what those feelings are. Are. I think, you know, a place like, I'll give you an example for her that I think it becomes interesting. I tell people, not in the first year. In the first year. I mean, it's. It's hideous. It's hideous. But I do tell people at a certain time, you want to become aware. I had to become aware. Am I only talking about the day my son died? Because that was one day in his life. I need to water the garden and water all the other days he lived. So I think it's true. If you just for years talk about the day of the death, it does expand. And I want to pick out birthdays and father's days and Tuesdays to remember those. So I think that's where sort of the. What. What are you saying? Will expand comes into it, at least for me.

I also think there's people out there that, you know, based on the home that they grew up in, they don't talk about it at all. You know, and that could be three years, five years, eight years. There's no mention whatsoever. And all of a sudden, then the dam breaks, and they can't not talk about the pain that they're. That they've been stuffing for how many years?

Right.

What suggestions do you have in terms of healing? When your loved one has died due to the virus and you're unable to have a celebration of life for them?

That is a really, really tough one.

I have one for that. Go ahead. Mine is, I think we need to grieve in real time. I understand that your tendency might be, let's just hold off for three months and plan a funeral then. And I would encourage you to have a funeral in three months, but I would encourage you to virtually do something in the next week or two when the grief is real, when the funeral would happen. I think we do have to attend to it. And gather in these moments, even if it's virtual, it's far from perfect. But that idea that, like, let's just pencil it in for three months, it's not great for the people who are deepest in grief. That's my take on that.

I also would add that one of the gifts of this time might be.

That. That we really, really are slowed down. Many of us really are slowed down.

So you might be better able, you know, to literally, I mean, carry that person with you day to day to day to day, you know, through the shelter at home, and that could be really, really healing.

So a number of people are saying, you know, what can I do to find this happy life? What can I do? How can we, you know, figure a way to get to those places that we're talking about?

I think people do have to go through the pain. I think you can't. You can't decide to skip over, and I don't think you can go. Tom and David seem like they found happiness over after their children and wife. Wife has died. So I'm sure I can get there in a week.

I agree with you completely. And I think there, there. Some people might not like to hear this, but I think there can be many, many gifts in the pain.

The pain that we're feeling.

Is usually rooted in a story that we're telling ourselves that a lot of the times isn't really true.

And.

When we're aware of that pain, we have the opportunity to shift the story, you know, to shift our perception. Marianne Williamson. That's her definition of a miracle, a shift in perception. I love that. So is it possible for me to go from pain to peace? It is. I mean, it is. I'll tell you a little story here.

This is a.

This is a gift from my wife. Our daughter was 18 months old when she died. And Trish said to me, we are going to celebrate her life. We are going to celebrate her life. She came and she loved and she was loved. And even though she was only here for 18 months, she lived a full life. And we are going to celebrate that. That's a shift. I mean, that's a huge shift. And I promise you, in the days and weeks and months after she died at the age of 43, I heard her voice inside of my head, and you should celebrate my life. I came, I was loved. I loved. I had a really, really wonderful, full life. Celebrate that.

But I don't want to minimize it. It is hard, hard, hard work. This grief work is hard, and we have to honor that. It is exhausting. It's exhausting. And it's. This is what I say at the beginning. And the beginning could be 18 months. The beginning could be four years. The beginning for some people is eight years at the beginning. Oh, yes, it is exhausting. And it is something that we go back to over and over and over and over again on a daily basis.

You know, in my last book, I really wanted to find out a lot of the brain science on our making up those stories. And I just want to delve into that for a moment because I don't want to let that pass. What you said, it's so important, the stories we make up. No one's calling me. It's because, you know, they didn't like my son. No one's calling me. It's because they're horrible people. You know, my child died, my husband died, my wife died because I didn't call. I had an art. Whatever. All those negative stories we make up and then we believe them. And I think sometimes that's why it's so important in a group. I love doing group work. I'm not a great one on one person. People want to do one on one with me, and I'm like, I'm not that great. You should come to a group. There's really great people who are one on one. That might be you. I'm better. Yeah. Yeah. I'm better in a group. And there's something so powerful I can't convince you that the phone call didn't kill them, but you sort of see someone else blaming themselves. And I'm working with them. And you're like, oh, yeah, they're doing the same thing I'm doing. But it's so sad to see how our mind does turn on us. And it's a protective mind, but it does make up these stories that end up punishing us.

I want to add something about the.

Power of a group.

I do like working with groups, too. And my hunch is you've observed this as someone facilitating the group. There is a group energy that is more powerful and potent than any of the individual energies. And I've witnessed, and I would love to get this on tape sometime, where someone has an encoding. Incredible breakthrough. And you can see, you know, the wrinkles in their face just soften. And then as I look around, it's contagious. It's like it affects everyone in that group. So I love that too. I think there's a real, real power. And I want to. I want to throw something else out.

I do Believe words have power. And I don't use the word loss anymore. I don't say I.

No, well, let me. Let me explain. I don't say that I lost my son or L, O, S T. L, O, S T? Yeah. I don't say that I lost Rory, I lost Trish, I lost Aaron. And I will tell you why. I wrote about this in my first book. But about three weeks after Aaron had died, I was standing on a pier surrounded by water in the middle of the night, and I just looked up in the stars, and I was like, where are you? Where are you? I could not figure out what had happened. It's like I had seen her, and then she was gone. It was like she had been snatched. And I decided that I needed to find her. In order for me to be at peace, I needed to find her. And I have. I mean, I've. For me, I found my daughter, I found my wife, I found my son. And that has helped me immensely on this road to peace and healing. And I want to add this. I worked with a gentleman who said, I don't believe in God, and I sure don't believe in an afterlife, so you got anything for me? And I said, I do. You know, I really do. And he lived about six, seven hours away from me. And he would take these. His wife passed away. He would take these beautiful photographs of nature, of flowers and squirrels and rabbits and deer. And I didn't ask him to do this. He just intuitively did this. He would take a picture of his wife and put her face in the middle of the flower or, you know, on the back of the deer or in the center of the sun.

And.

And in the course of our work together, he said, you know, she's everywhere. I experience her through all of these things. I mean, our bond was so tight that when I had my very first book signing, I looked up and there this guy was. I had never met him before. He drove seven hours. And I said, what are you doing here? He said, I couldn't not be here. So I do think we can all find our people, and it's as individual as every single human being. But I think it's important, right?

And I don't like to, you know, encourage the term, but I don't correct people in grief. I say people in grief get to say whatever they want. But I, you know, talk about when I do trainings for therapists, that we don't want to use the word lost because you didn't lose them at the mall or the grocery store. I mean, they're not lost, you know?

Yeah. It's like, if they're lost, go find them.

Go find them. All right, let me see if I missed any questions. All right.

Let'S see when I could focus on my son's beautiful life, his great humor, gifts that he gave me. Okay. She's talking about what healing is for her. That's. I love how people are just helping one another here. It just makes my heart sing.

Let me see if I can see any questions. People are sort of going along, and I just. I don't. Maybe it's the. The other part of me that wants to care for the people who might be in the background going, I don't know. What the hell do you two are talking about? I'm just in deep grief, and I can barely breathe. And I just want to acknowledge that I think we're all there. You know, this is a group that. Please talk about when you can't breathe because the pain is so horrible. And if you're having a good day, it's actually okay to admit you're having a good day. You know, both can exist.

And this is what I always say. I'm sharing what is true for me. I'm sharing what's true for me. And if it doesn't resonate with you right now, I'm perfectly fine with that. I am not telling you what to do or what to think. My hope is that maybe I'm planning some seeds. You know, maybe I'm saying something and someone will go, oh, I never thought of that.

So Cynthia says, how do I accept the fact my daughter has died? She was my only child, and not only did she. And not only did she pass, I lost my identity and my future. I think I'm in denial. She passed three years ago, and until I can actually accept her death, I won't be able to fully grieve her death and the loss of my identity and the future with her.

I'll tell you an interesting story. So my daughter died in 1990.

And I was working for the American Cancer Society at the time. And back then, we had secretaries. And I came home or I came back to the office from lunch, and there was a pink slip about. About. This was about three years after Aaron died. And the pink slip was that my father called me. My very first thought was, he's found Aaron. They found her. They. That was my, you know, deep, you know, like, base response. So even three years into that, I hadn't gotten to the place where I was able to really, really really surrender to the truth of what had happened. And once I was able to, this. This word finality, you know, finality, it's like, oh, she's not coming back. There's a finality to that. But I'll tell you, I only had to learn that once, because as my wife, Trish, was dying, and as Rory was dying, I was like, ah, shoot. I mean, I know this. So this is what I would say. I would say, be really, really gentle with yourself.

There.

There are actually gifts in denial. I mean, denial can often protect us because we were not sure, you know, that we have the external resources or the internal resources to deal with what is really, really true. Your awareness that you just expressed through your message, that's the first step. I mean, that's the first step. And I would say, you know, when you're able, just kind of try to lean into that.

You know?

And I would also say I can remember when my son died. After 40 years of grief, work.

Five books, I canceled everything. I just. I couldn't even walk. You know, it's sort of. You have to allow yourself to be wherever you are. And, you know, that's what I had to do. The only thing I want to also say, Cynthia, you say I lost my identity. I just want to invite you to consider you brought a whole woman and a whole mother to your child. And as devastating as it is, and as changed as you will be forever, there still is a whole you there. You may not feel it now. You may not believe it now. You cannot see it now, but I just want you to know, that whole person that was there before your daughter was born, that you brought to her, still exist. Forever changed, but still exists.

And part of my identity today is I am Aaron's daddy, right? You know, Trish was my wife. I am Rory's daddy. And I would suggest you are your child's mom. I mean, that is still who you are. And.

From where I come, you know, that child is still your child. I believe that.

Well, we've just burned through an hour, Tom. Pretty quickly. Very quickly, tell us. Tell me your books. Tell us your. I know your books, but tell everyone here your books, how they can find you, et cetera.

Okay. I've written two books. The first one is called Permission to Mourn, and that's the book. We kind of touched on this a little bit before. That's the book I wish I had read after my daughter Erin died. But I had to live through the experiences that I lived through in order to write it. So that really is my gift to the world. Those people that are immersed in deep, deep, deep, dark grief. My second book, and I mean I had the audacity to call it becoming radiant.

Don't slap me upside the head. But I do believe that we were not born to suffer. That is not why we came to this planet. And that the death of our loved ones, it will transform us. It is transforming us. And it can either consciously transform us or, or transform us on a subconscious level. And this is what I want. This is what I strive for. I want to be more loving. I want to be more understanding. I want to be more compassionate. I want to be more gentle. Dare I say, I do want the light to shine from me. I want to be this radiant human being that offers hope and to the next person. So both of the books are available on Amazon. My website is really, really easy. It's my name, tomzuba.com I have two Facebook pages.

My. My second one, which all you have to do is like, is Tom Zuba teaches a new way to do grief.

My hope is, and my prayer is that every single person that was with us tonight, that, that you go away with one spark of light. You go away a little bit more hopeful than you were, you know, when, when you arrived an hour ago.

Tom, thank you for being here.

Thank you. I appreciate being.

So. I so appreciate all of you being here. Someone asked about how can we be gentle with ourselves. One of the things I would say, think about the kindest thought you've ever had about another human being and give that thought to yourself. Tomorrow night, Beth Segaloff is going to be here with us. Beth is a wonderful friend of mine. She's a social worker. She's a yoga teacher. She's just amazing. She's a mother. And she's also going to be talking about the death of a fiance. And I think it's really interesting anyone who's had grief minimized or disenfranchised grief or felt your grief was seen as less than, I think people in grief who have had someone like a fiance die. And I'll be asking her these questions if that comes across and how to deal with those losses. And she's just a wonderful gift in the world and you're going to really love being with her. Then the next night, Friday night, we're going to have Melissa Rivers here. Joan Rivers daughter is going to be here to talk about the death of a parent. And then Saturday night, we're going to have Tonya Wright from Orange is the New Black. I'm just so impressed and so grateful to people like Tom and Melissa and Beth and Tanya and Susie. Orman says she's willing to come and talk about, you know, dealing with finances and grief. And in a pandemic these people are showing up because of you. They're volunteering their time because we want you to know in the midst of this pandemic you are not alone. Your life matters. Your loved one who died matters and we care deeply for you. So I'll be here 1pm tomorrow Pacific time, 4pm Eastern and then back here again tomorrow night. If you have friends who are alone, isolated in grief, please let them know about this channel and this group that we're putting together to support one another. I say I'm here two hours a day. The rest is amazing people supporting one another. So thank you all so much for being here. I really appreciate you and I'll see you tomorrow. Thanks.