How a DIY Lip Balm Idea Became a Zero Waste Makeup Brand

I don't want just, okay, it's a skincare brand, it's all your basics, and it's in sustainable packaging. It's like, I want to give them something more. I want high-performance makeup. I want high-performance skincare. I want it to compete at the same level as normal makeup. Right.

You want to actually compete at the feature level, not just it's better packaging.

Exactly. And I think that's a really important message.

Hello and welcome to the Conscious Design Podcast. I'm your host, Ian Peterman, and I help turn product ideas into sustainable 7-figure businesses. Join me for another episode where sustainability meets innovation and business savvy. Today, I'm really excited to have Corinne. She's the founder of River Organics, a sustainable vegan beauty product brand. Welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to do my first podcast ever with you.

Amazing. Well, I'm excited to be with you to do your first podcast. So let's start with how did this start? What got you to decide, yeah, I want to launch a beauty brand and make it sustainable and vegan and better than all the other ones out there?

Yeah, well, definitely it comes from wanting to produce something better than all the other ones, but it was also just to I wanted to start a beauty brand. I don't know where the idea came from, but I was living in France. This was around 2014, 2013, and I started ordering ingredients and I had seen a YouTube video about making your own lip balm and I thought it was really cool and I tried it and I played around and it's still the original recipe that we have today. So it started from—

That's awesome.

Just kind of wanting to have my own beauty brand. I was working in art and art history, so nothing to do with Well, lots to do with beauty, but nothing to do with the beauty business per se.

Right.

And I think after I'd worked in art and art history, it had been close to 20 years, a bit, a little bit less. I decided that I wanted to have my own sort of business and I was moving to a smaller town in North Carolina called Wilmington, where my husband was living. Pretty much the day after I moved to North Carolina, I Um, started the brand. So I registered the company. I was still on a green card, so I don't know. I think I had to put it under his name, like a bit kind of just rushed. I didn't know what to call it and we were living by the water and I was like, I'll call it River Organics and it'll just be something I start. And then, um, just to get quickly through it, I started making oils because I got really into using natural plant oils and just like saw the massive benefits for my skin.

Mm-hmm.

which had been very acne-prone when I was younger. And I saw online a packaging tube, a lip balm tube, because we're not the first to do paper lip balms. Definitely one of the earlier brands, but not the first. And I saw a brand that had it and I said, that's the only thing I want to do. I don't want to use these little plastic chapstick tubes anymore because what is the point of trying to have a natural brand and then your packaging is just going in a dumpster? fire plastic. Like I still to this day can't believe that the two don't go better together. But no, no shade. So once I saw that, that was it. And it took about a year for me to get the, get the packaging rolling out, I guess, the way I wanted it to. I had it printed and everything like that. And it's made from post-consumer recycled packaging and it's FSC certified and it's printed on soy ink. So yeah, that's like from A to Z, but there was a lot in between. But basically, I just, once I saw that paper packaging and that there were sustainable solutions, I just went fully into that and there was no going back.

Amazing. Well, I think that it's, I love the fact that you just jumped into it.

Yeah, just very—

A lot of people, they sit there and they think and they think and they think, and then there's like, 10 years later, like, oh, maybe I'll find it. You're just like, hey, I decided one day I'm just gonna do it, and jumped straight into it's gonna be sustainable, it's gonna have these, these are the things I wanted to have, uh, and then you made it happen.

I don't think I ever, especially before I talk, um, when I was young. But yeah, no, I think that obviously the naivety is what drove the business to being sustainable without question because there was just, like I said, no going back. But it also helped differentiate us from the beginning. At the same time, my not thinking and naivety caused the— made the business grow really, really, really slowly, but at a pace that I could keep up with personally while I learned how to do business. Because I, like I said, I come from an art history background. And even though I worked in auction houses and art galleries, which have a business side to them, obviously. It's completely different than manufacturing and producing goods for the retail market. So, you know, as much as I would've— I used to think the company was gonna grow super quickly and, and all this stuff. I'm so glad that it's taken 9 years, 'cause I'm still learning every day and it's grown at a, at a growable pace for me.

Oh, that's good. I, there's, Sometimes, you know, growing too quickly kills a business. So there is, there is that balance point of you got to grow enough to be successful, pay the bills and be able to grow, but not growing so quickly that it becomes excruciatingly painful. Yeah.

I feel very passionate about this because I definitely do not ever want to go down the route of getting funding and growth at all costs. And being not profitable. And I know that that's not really how it works, but at the same time, if I'm a sustainable brand, then my business should be sustainable and the growth should be sustainable too. I don't know, they just all go hand in hand together to me. But, you know, I haven't had huge wads of cash thrown at me either, but I've definitely had like, you know, people trying to pique my interest with regards to distribution and The types of distribution that we just don't have the cash flow for. So you wanna stretch yourself, you wanna be everything for everybody. But once you— and this is like for my business and for life— once you realize like your lane is just like blinders and it's just like, do your thing and everything is just noise and doesn't even touch you after that.

Right. Well, I think that's a— it's funny. I think you're the 3rd or 4th person to use the stay in your lane.

Yeah, I don't like to stay in your lane. That's actually kind of not the nicest when I think about it, because it's like, I wouldn't— I didn't stay in my lane, but I just mean like, pick what you want to do and like, you're good. Like, it's your thing. Right.

Well, the focus part, right?

The focus part.

Yeah.

Yeah. I don't want to— I don't want anyone to big, big fat pivot.

The rare meanders.

But yeah, you can do whatever you want to do. You can change your mind 50 times. I change my mind 50 times a day, but I definitely think that, yeah, sustainability goes along with financial model as well, because what is the point of flooding the market with a product that actually you don't know if it can grow on its own? Just reading a lot about brands that are going into Sephora really quickly and what it takes to get to that point and the money they have to invest as a brand in terms of the training and It just, yeah, it doesn't seem very, it doesn't seem like a model that I can understand personally, but I'm not a business, like I said, person. So.

That's okay. I think one of the things is there's so many kinds, so many ways to, right, build a successful brand and that people hyperfocus on the, like you're talking about, go get big investors, put in millions and millions of dollars. And trying to get into Sephora or something like that instantly. And that is a path. You could do that. People— there are brands who are doing that.

Many, many.

But it's not the only way. Yeah.

Yeah. There's— I was just thinking about that today. I was thinking how we don't give enough credit to all the small businesses that are just like supporting their families with their businesses and like that incredible, or for like I met someone recently who sold their family's business. It had been 90 years open. And I'm like, that's success. Like, that's cool because you're doing what you love and you're supporting your family. So it goes, it goes really well together. Yeah.

If you're happy, yeah. You don't have to do something else.

It doesn't have to be rushed for sure.

Yeah. Well, let's talk about the PaxNet. You mentioned super briefly. So it is post-consumer paper.

Yeah.

And you said soy ink?

Yeah, they use soy ink to print. So when I first did my first round of packaging, I had this like river grass idea in mind and I really liked the way gold stamp look on it. But then because people compost the packaging, it was just, wasn't like a good idea to have this kind of metal embossed piece. So like I've learned to have better ideas with regards to that too. But, um, and that's from our customer feedback simply. So we, yeah, we got in touch with a company. The company, well, all packaging is made in China. So like, I don't hide that. There's no paper tubes made in the USA, even if it's called like Paper Tube Company USA, Canada, whatever.

Buying it from China and bringing it over.

They're just buying. Yeah. They're just, they just have it in stock in the US. Like that's pretty much how it all works, but all of our manufacturing itself and pouring is in, is in the US. Um, in North Carolina. So yeah, so we have been working with the same company since day one, thankfully. So what's great about that is that they do really small batches and, um, they were okay to do 500 at a time to start. So made some big commitments with that, uh, 9 years ago. They're still in business. I'm still in business. Um, the partnership's great and they do a lot of design work for me and basically It's gotten better and better. They've gotten better certifications, better packaging, better quality. And I think for me, they, because all these companies have invested in this paper packaging, they've really demystified the myth that packaging in plastic is somehow better for the product, somehow conserves the product longer.

I wanted to ask about that.

Yeah. So all of those things are, Makes that true. None of it is particularly true. You remove a cap from the paper packaging, and we do have like a food-grade wax seal as well. So there's like another layer to the packaging, but that's compostable as well. But so that helps.

Okay, amazing.

Yeah, that helps things. But like all of our— how do you say— the duration of our products expiry is what I'm looking for. They're all the same as a normal makeup brand, even if they're in paper packaging. And then okay, to go a step further than this, the massive difference with paper and plastic besides the fact that it's compostable and a renewable source. And like I said, FSC certified, all those great benefits. But you also get like usually twice, 2 to 3 times the amount of packaging because you're removing that heavy base of plastic, the heavy, the big cap, the thick wall, the pen, the push-up mechanism, the spring. You know, if you take apart a piece of a lipstick or chapstick or an eyeliner, especially a pen one, they have like nothing. They just— there's just all packaging and there's like this much product. So that was a huge learning curve. I don't know if I'm going off on a tangent, but a lot of people when they first saw the product were like, it's so tiny, it's so tiny, I want a refund, it's so small. And I'm like, you're getting twice the amount. Like, look at the grams. But we don't, we're not used to looking at the amount, the amount of actual products. So, uh, that was—

No, not on, not on those kinds of things.

No, I don't.

I mean, look, yeah, I've worked in, in makeup stuff before and yeah, it's insane. The mascara when you pour out.

Oh my God.

This is, it's a thimble. We have a thimble here and it's in this heavy thing.

All makeup is a thimble and it should all be measured as a thimble from now on. The new measurement system. Forget metric.

Yeah, whole new one.

Just thimble. And I think like, yeah, like half a thimble for an eyeliner, if that. So, um, right. So paper packaging is just amazing. Like, it's just, I just think it looks cool. I think it works just like a normal plastic packaging. It's, it's smaller, it's easier to travel with, it's lighter. Yeah, it just has so many benefits that are, that are overlooked.

And with your lip balm, do you— because the other thing I've— in talking to people about packaging stuff, how do you get it out? Do you just push it through?

Most of our packaging you push up and then you just apply and you get used to it. If you push too high, you have to like kind of tap it or push it down with your lips. But yeah, it's just an easy, lightweight paper tube.

And it is so much smaller.

Yeah, it does look a lot smaller.

So you imagine it's probably lighter for you to ship too.

Yes, it's— well, that's one of the great things with regards to shipping is that it does make our shipping a lot less expensive and easier. Yeah. And it doesn't— like, I had someone ask me the other day, oh, don't ship because we're in the desert and it's gonna— it's 110 degrees and they don't melt. Like, the melting point's like 120. So it's— they're— and like, these, these were made in North Carolina, so it's like, it's hot there too.

So in my mouth— I live in Phoenix. Yeah.

Occasionally in my mouth, in my I don't know what your records are.

Maybe, but I guarantee you the one in the plastic, my daughter, she, she has some.

I'm sure every girl has.

It melts still. The plastic does not save it from melting.

No, it doesn't. We have this like plastic illusion of hygiene, I think, um, is the only thing, or like, um, cleanliness. And I think because of the obsession a little bit. I'm just gonna say like North American obsession with clean and hygiene and cleaning products and that, like, that kind of as if plastic is clean and it's not. It's, and I think people are realizing that. I don't have to educate people really on how to use the paper packaging anymore. People know how to use it. Oh, that's good. And I think it's like the whole wave of like, people know how to make their own cleaning products. People realize that Tupperware is like terrible.

Admit you're not supposed to microwave it.

Yeah, don't microwave it. Don't microwave your beauty products. So yeah, I think the beauty industry is really kind of behind with regards to some of the packaging innovations that are available to it and are not being used. And there's another brand that does something similar to me. They're called Axiology. Like, I'm totally fine shouting out other brands. And one of the owners was saying the other day that people say, oh, why isn't it less expensive? It's just in paper packaging. And it's like, plastic is probably cheaper, which is scary. Plastic packaging, because it's also from the oil and gas industry, and it's kind of like a leftover product, it's way less expensive to actually buy plastic packaging, and then it lasts forever. So because paper packaging is not as widely used, that makes sense, right?

Hey, it's your host, Ian. I'm really glad you're enjoying this episode. I absolutely love highlighting amazing brands and founders for the Awesome things they are doing. I've helped hundreds of entrepreneurs and businesses like yours turn their boldest ideas into powerful, purpose-driven brands. So if you're serious about building a brand people love, like our guests and clients do, and one that you're proud to stand behind, I invite you to dive a bit deeper with our book Conscious Design. Inside, you'll discover the exact framework and steps we use to help entrepreneurs like you turn purpose into a powerful, impact-driven brand, brand that stands out, attracts loyal customers, and drives sustainable growth with social and environmental responsibility woven into its DNA. Grab your copy today. You can find it on our website, consciousdesignhouse.com, or just find the link below in the show notes. Enjoy the rest of the episode and don't forget to like, subscribe, and share. Well, the interesting thing that One of the other things that caught my attention when you were talking is that when you, you said when you started, you found a company who was already making it. You didn't have to go invent it. You were able to actually find somebody making it.

Yeah. I, I don't wanna say I ripped it off, but I saw a paper, a lip balm in paper packaging and I was like, oh, I have, that's the only way I'm gonna succeed or stand out as a tiny business. But also like, that's the only way I'm gonna continue. making products and putting them into, onto the planet for people to use. It just clicked for me. It was like there was no going back, but I don't remember the name of that company anymore. It was on Pinterest and I can see it, but I can, I still can't remember the name of them. Um, that's okay. Yeah, but I'm, I know it. I just like right now off the top of my head. I come from Canada, so I grew up in Victoria. I'm from Montreal originally, but I grew up in Victoria and they made, I'll never forget, I was like 20 and they Made like throwing paper out illegal. Like you had to put it, like if they found paper in your garbage, you'd get a fine. And this was 30 years ago, less than 30, like 27 years ago. So like when I moved to North Carolina and my building didn't even have recycling, I was like, this isn't familiar to me because not to say that Canada's that much more progressive, but for that, where I came from, it was like.

Their trash system is. It's okay to say it.

Yeah, it was pretty— I mean, everything was being recycled, like, but not that recycling is an answer because it's definitely not. It's a confusing and complicated world that I don't want to touch. But, um, and I'm a bit more pro composting and not buying stuff rather than recycling. But yeah, so, so then I was like, well, it's paper, it can be recycled and this and that. It's perfect. Like, it just kind of all clicked to me where it came from and what practices were and what I thought people would want to see. And I also was living in a small town where people supported that, and that's how the business grew as well. I love that.

I would love to dive into— right, you, you— so you started with the lip balm as your, as your first, but you obviously, you do a lot more than just lip balm now.

Yeah.

How has that journey been?

Again, it was a non-thinking journey. So I was like, well, we make lip balms. Let's make highlighters. I had never used highlighter makeup in my life. I don't know why I thought that should be the next product, but it was kind of a trend in 2017, 2018 when I came out with the highlighters and I thought it was a cool product. It was kind of a— yeah, it was one of those products I thought was kind of trending, but it was also a great product that you can demonstrate outside and it just hits the light and it just seemed like a really great idea. So I launched highlighters and then I launched blush sticks. And when I started my company, the first 2 years I was doing outside market. So I was demonstrating all of this makeup outside and then our customers would go home and order, thankfully, and continue to be customers to this day. But so, so yeah, that was kind of the trio that I started. Then I thought, well, let's take it further to face makeup. Now this is where things could really go wrong for a business is because when you get into color, this is where This is where I didn't— this is where I really needed a business background. But when you get into color cosmetics like concealer, you have to make a lot of colors. So like, I don't know how many colors, for example, Fenty Beauty, they have like the most— one of the most different colors for skin tones. So let's say they have like 50. I don't know how many they have and I can be corrected on that, but I was trying to make 10 at the start and have them even light to dark, like just across the board. But the problem is that's a massive investment. You're suddenly making a product that has 10 SKUs that you haven't tried.

Right.

Whereas a lip balm color, you can go in one at a time and it's a different color and it's a different type of product. But, um, yeah, so color cosmetics were a big risk, but it was a big payoff because it got us much more noticed. And that's when we really started to take off with regards to wholesale. And a lot of zero waste stores started popping up. And we got some really great clients from the concealer launch. So I would say that because I kind of just kept going, well, what could we disrupt in terms of makeup beyond the lip balm? Because a lot of brands now do this type of lip balm because I just kept looking for that disruption in terms of like, yeah, what could we do next? I think that that was a huge payoff. And then in 2 years later, I did mascara, which has been really hard because it's a solid mascara, which is known as a cake mascara. You dip your lip, your eyes, stuff. dip your brush into it, your spoolie brush. And, uh, and it was also kind of the next one that took us to the next level. And now we have eye products for brows and products for eyelashes. So I'm always kind of looking for that really hard-to-make product because it'll be a challenge, but it'll also be a massive payoff and get us noticed. And it's a really cool challenge generally because how How can we make mascaras super sustainable? How can we make skincare, beard care, hair care? Like, what is the— I'm always looking for that key to the packaging in terms of sustainability. And one of the reasons we haven't really launched more skincare— we used to do bottles, which is a nightmare, unfortunately, because I love oils. But the reason I haven't launched is because I'm not entirely convinced I want to do the stick. Or the paper pot for skincare. And I'm trying to figure out what would be the next, next best thing or the best thing, actually.

Yeah. When you get into oils, oils are a whole other thing.

Yeah. And it's heavier and it's a different expiration. And so we've really positioned ourselves as just a makeup brand. But I have such a huge desire to make skincare because I think it's such an exciting thing as well. But, but I'm very happy again to stay in my— just to stick to what I'm doing and to keep coming out with better colors and innovate in terms— in the makeup sphere for now.

Well, and I think it's— it's— I like that you are— you're not just jumping in and going, oh, we want to do oils so bad that we're just going to use a plastic bottle. You're also— Well, that's it. I'm only going to do it if it's good.

Yeah. And I also think that there's a next level of innovation that's coming in skincare and makeup that, that I think is not there yet. And I think a lot of brands are kind of just repeating the same hyaluronic niacinamide, like kind of same formulas. And I'm— I also find formulation really fun and I love inventing products along with our manufacturer and, and I want something exciting. I don't want just, okay, it's a skincare brand, it's all your basics and it's in sustainable packaging. It's like, No, because you're really just trying to get the customer to just move over, which is great, but I want to give them something more. I want high-performance makeup. I want high-performance skincare. I want it to compete at the same level as normal makeup. Right.

You want to actually compete at the feature level, not just it's better packaged.

Exactly. And I think that's a really important message. So yeah, thanks for summarizing.

That's amazing. I'm excited to see what you come up with.

Thanks. I've got some ideas.

Amazing. Well, looking forward a little bit, obviously you're going to try to tackle that side of things. What else are you looking at, like inside the makeup world that you're in? You've mostly been able to work in more solids, right? Yeah, kind of wax side of things. Yeah.

So I think what I've noticed in terms of how our customers use the product is they are looking for 2-in-1 solutions. So what I'm starting to think more about is what are those 2-in-1 products? Because rather than just come out with, okay, now we're doing eyeshadow and you could only use it for the eyes, it's like, well, actually, Our blusher stick works really good on the eyes. So let's make that more of a 2-in-1 product. Let's promote that. And our lip stains look great on the cheeks. So a lot of customers just use one. They really like a 2-in-1 type of solution. So and then let's, you know, innovate more and add a skincare element because every time we make— we create a product, we try and we choose the oils we choose. We choose based on where makeup product is being used on the base and how it might be beneficial in that regard. How, for example, coconut oil will protect the lips from the sun, from the weather, how grapeseed oil will protect the skin, especially in the fine line area, and shea butter, same thing, high in vitamin A. So it's fantastic for the areas that we're applying it to. So it's more— Yeah, it's not necessarily that we're going to change from the solid, but we're going to get a little bit more creamy, a little bit more texture and, and add that sort of skincare element to the makeup, but also make it more of a 2-in-1 hybrid product. But I also don't want to throw everything at the client because our clients are very loyal to the colors, to the OG colors that we started with. And whenever I deviate from that, it's— it doesn't go down well. So I'm trying to stay very— this is a like kind of cheesy word, but I would try to stay like to think of our company as like a legacy brand because I'm like, okay, we're 9 years old. That's not nothing. That's not a toddler.

That's impressive.

It's a preteen. So, so I'm like, they've been with us for this journey for this long. We're going to continue with our classics, you know, colors, and then we'll try and innovate and bring them along to a new journey. But we don't want to shove you know, too many things down their throats at the same time as well and keep it really simple and not give into too many trends because even on social media, I get, you know, really tempted to go down that path.

Yes.

But the truth is, is the founder and owner is not a Gen Z. I'm like a millennial Gen Xer. So I'm not going to do all the fun things on social media. I'm going to keep it really Classic. So I know I went on a huge tangent there, but I do feel like everything works together as a whole in terms of the brand and the sustainability of it.

Well, and I think it's a huge thing to be aware of your customers, right?

And yeah, massively.

When you're doing this, you're testing it, and when they say we don't like it, they'll push back.

It's important to listen. Yeah, it's important to listen and Sometimes I get people saying, oh, I was so excited it was paper, but I prefer glass. And I'm like, I'm sorry. I wish that I could switch everything to glass and it was an easy solution, but we're not quite there yet. But I don't know, I might dabble in all kinds of different things down the line, but you really have to be established before you can experiment too much as well. So.

Yeah. And you know, it's something to think about is like, I like that you're You say, you know, legacy brand. That's actually a word I use a lot when thinking about branding.

Yeah.

Because you're also, you're at 9 years old, right? As a brand, you're old enough now as a brand somebody could have started using as a teenager.

That's true.

Now they're an adult. They could have been using your product through high school and college now. Yeah. And when you start to think about that, like, well, that means like in another 10 years.

Yeah.

It could be them teaching their kids or giving their— right? You start to think about that kind of thing, then it's super important when you're like, oh, I want to be loyal to my customers.

It's a long game. It's not a short game. It's a long game. And I like, I think it's reassuring to think like that because I'm like, it's not growth at all costs. It's not, yeah, every whim. Yeah. We want to give your customers what they want. I love making people happy. That they like the products and buy them on repeat. It's like, it's just insane to me. I love it. So cool.

Well, it's good. I mean, you're actually providing something they want, which should be the actual goal. Yeah.

It's stuff I want. I just came back. I was just traveling for 2 weeks and I had the lightest makeup bag in the world. And I was like, this is so great. Like everyone needs to do this, just switch to River Organics. It just makes life so much easier.

Just for travel reason. Like people buy mini makeup things just for travel. Like this is already small. Like—

They're already perfect travel size partners. Yeah. I'm tempted sometimes to make them a little bit bigger just because of that feedback. But at the same time, then you're going to have a bulky product that doesn't fit in a nice little pencil case, like the way I carry them around. So.

Yeah. I think the smaller is okay. It's not— especially it's the same amount of product, right?

Yeah. More.

As soon as you pour it out, double, triple.

Yeah. It's crazy. Especially if you do like a powder compact blush as opposed to a solid blush, it's like 3 times like the amount. Highlighter sticks, even if it's a highlighter stick and a plastic stick and it's our highlighter stick, it's usually around double. Double.

Yeah, that's, that's good.

For a lot less price as well, because we don't have like a lot of middlemen. I work a lot directly with the companies that we sell with, and then we sell direct to consumers. So I try to keep the price point in the teens to mid-20s. Like we don't even have a product that's $25. Our products are all under like $23, $23 to $12.99, $13 to $23. So Yeah, 'cause I'm just like, I see products going up and up and up. I see the tariffs affecting people and I'm just like, no, we're not changing. It's not, you know, I don't care about inflation or anything because I, I know what I think is affordable. And I think that that's affordable-ish still. Right.

If you have the margins to provide the customer service that you wanna be able to provide, handle any returns, you know, all, if you can handle all of that and still turn a profit, then it works.

Yeah.

And if you have happy, loyal customers, it's really working. Because that's what people spend a lot of money trying to, trying to have that.

Yeah. Eyeballs.

Amazing. Well, this has been a pleasure talking to you.

You too.

And for everyone who wants to learn more, find you guys online, anything like that, where is the best place for someone to reach out or buy your products?

Our website is the best because you're going to get all the latest updates. I have a little blog on there called River Labs that I just started to update people what's in the pipeline of things coming. And actually, I was just going to update it today about amazing stain colors. So big teaser that's coming out soon. Um, so riverorganics.org, um, is the best place. Unfortunately, I don't have the .com, but that was an early decision that I made.

Accidental.

Um, and then our Instagram is River Organics Beauty, same as our TikTok, and If you hear from Corinne, you're hearing from me because they pretty much do most of the customer service still, which I enjoy. Great.

Amazing. Amazing. And for everyone listening or watching, we'll have links in the description. Thank you so much.

I appreciate the shout out and my first foray into podcasting. Thank you.

Absolutely. Well, it's been a pleasure. Thanks so much for being on. And that wraps up another episode of the Conscious Design Podcast. If today's episode inspired you to bring your product idea to life and turn it into a sustainable 7-figure business, visit petermanfirm.com or click the link below. Your ideas have the power to change the world, and we're here to help make that happen. Thank you for joining us, and I'll see you on the next episode.