How to Shop Smarter: Decoding Fashion’s Hidden Labels

People, they don't want to wear the same piece if they have a photo of it uploaded. So I'm wearing this right now, this sweater, and people see that I'm wearing the same piece again and again. So according to a study in the UK, consumers, they admit that 1 out of 10, they buy a clothing piece just to post a story, just to create a post on the social media. They never wear it again. And this is huge.

1 out of 10.

Yes, 1 out of 10.

Hello and welcome to the Conscious Design Podcast. I'm your host, Ian Peterman, and I help turn product ideas into sustainable 7-figure businesses. Join me for another episode where sustainability meets innovation and business savvy. Today, I'm really excited to have Vicki Thiacree. She's the disciplinary-based designer in London. Welcome to the show.

Hello, hello everyone. Hello, Ian. Thanks for having me. It's a great pleasure to be here and talk about sustainability and everything we're gonna discuss today.

Amazing. Well, before we dive into sustainability, which is a whole— it's a whole topic, let's talk a little bit about you. How did you get into design? And then obviously I know you work in sustainability as well. So what was that journey like getting to the point where now you're a designer working in sustainability too?

So actually my journey in design and sustainability started around 2021. I actually, because during digitalization that COVID-19 caused, everything moved online. And so I became fascinated by the intersection of visual communication, digital innovation, and marketing. So I took many courses into for digital marketing. And later I pursued my master's in design at UCA in the UK. While I was doing my master's degree, my thesis was about sustainability and fashion. Actually, it was like sustainable fashion through design and digital innovation. And I knew that I have to create something meaningful, something impactful. And to create ideas regarding that and provided a strong solution. So I started working during that time.

Amazing. And so you're UK-based right now, London?

Yes.

But you are originally from Greece?

Yes.

I'm really curious, and you're actually sitting in Greece right now.

Yes.

How does that influence, and what do you see differences, you know, in sustainability? in the fashion world, very different cultures, very different, different things. How does that relate? And what have you— what are kind of the things that you see between those 2 places?

So to be honest, in Greece, because I'm from a small town in central Greece, originated there. So in Greece, we don't have so much sustainability in our culture, at least Until now. So I grew up in a city that doesn't take the sustainable factor so seriously, let's say. And most of the people here in Greece, they don't do thrifting or they don't have secondhand markets as a priority.

Oh, really?

Yes. Instead, in London, people, they have sustainability as more a priority, let's say. They go do thrifting, they're making more conscious choices, they're taking the this sustainability factor more seriously, let's say. And yeah, even they recycle things more than Greeks, as for now. Yeah. So they're very different cultures. They're different, very different cultures. And I think the UK is multicultural society, so they adopt easily new things like sustainability.

So you have, let's talk about your projects. Conscious Choices is one of the design things that you have done. For everyone who doesn't know about it, could you dive into a little bit how this come about? What does this project encompass? And yeah, just give some context for people.

So yeah, during my master's, I had to provide a design solution and fashion industry, one industry that I do love and And I, oh, I was always a fashion girly. So I was thinking like, okay, Vicky, you do like fashion so much. So you have maybe to provide a solution in the industry that you love so much. So as a designer, I knew that the sustainable, the sustainability is a huge thing in fashion as fashion is the second most polluting industry after oil and gas. Okay. We have to know that. And so I had to make a design solution and provide Solution. So I, to be honest, I was in Germany a few years ago and in the grocery store, and I was about to buy a yogurt. So the yogurt had strawberry taste. And in Germany, I don't know if you ever heard, they do have the Nutri-Score, a score that says A, B, C, D, E, how healthy is this product that you're going to buy. So the strawberry taste was C, which was like A is the best and E is the worst. So the strawberry taste yogurt was C. And next to it was the natural taste yogurt and it was A. And I was like, oh my God, I have to, no, I'm not gonna buy the strawberry taste. I'm gonna buy the natural taste because I felt like, oh my God, why this is A and this is C? Okay. So inspired by that, to be honest, I created a labeling system for clothes. So A, again, A is the best score and E is the worst score. So I provided the solution, a labeling system, and I was thinking what the other parties did in the past and everything. So this A2E system is, it has some subcategories like what materials is what we are wearing is made from, environmental impact, skin safety, because some materials are really harmful for the skin. And what is the durability, the lifetime of the product? So I took all of these under consideration and I combined the data and provided from A to E a labeling system for all the clothes that they're gonna purchase. So people can see if it is A, okay, let me buy, it's good for my skin, it's good for me. E, maybe I have to consider.

Yeah, it's interesting. I've been, been to Europe a few times. I was Last year I was in Norway and that label, they have that same A through E. This labeling system is much more European, which was great. Like it's, it also makes you, like you said, you see the difference, start to see the difference in things and you're like, oh, I wanted that, but I feel bad. I know it's not going to be as good. So wearing that Kind of, is it worth it? Is it, am I going to have this once and I really, really want it, but not buy it every time? Or should I just— Yeah. So what's interesting is it, is that's not something we don't have that in the US. There's no, it's, we give the nutrition numbers and we give the ingredients, but there's no way to easily hold up 2 different foods. And go, which one's the best? So I always, I've loved that system ever since I, I saw it. It's like, this is super easy as the customer. I don't have to go research all the names of things. I can just have an easy letter grade. It's, it seems super easy. And I love that you've taken that to fashion because there's no, at best you can get told, you know, the percentage of material.

Yeah.

Right? Like, oh, it's 60% cotton, 30%, like, that's it.

If it is true.

Okay, because yeah, and it's all self-reported.

Yeah, they say that we are eco-friendly. Okay, what does that mean? Show me percentages. Show me specifics. What eco-friendly means? I don't understand. Yeah, yeah, it was into the research, like so many brands, huge brands, major brands, they say, We are eco-friendly and all this greenwashing that is happening everywhere. It's like, oh my God, no, this thing has to change.

Yeah, well, and that's, I think that's a good, a good point is you can say, how, how do you know what is an eco-friendly, you know, even cotton? Because cotton, cotton can be grown in a way that uses less water and it can be grown in a way I've had multiple people on this podcast talk about, well, depending on how you grow the cotton, it could be more sustainable, or you could be using a ton of water and it is not good at that industrial scale.

Exactly.

And so how do you, you know, it seems it's a natural fiber, so then it's better, but it may not be, may not be better. And there's no real way to grade that. Because you're just looking, well, cotton and cotton. There's no— yeah, there's no way.

Yeah, there are so many things that we don't know. And in the fashion industry, transparency is a huge problem. Huge problem. So many uncertain things. And for example, you— we see this is recycled, made from recycled material, but If you go further and think about it, like how a recycled material from what can be made of, like they say that they're going to take your shirt and recycle it, but is it this possible? Imagine your shirt has buttons, it has some other materials. So how all these materials can be recycled and reproduce a new product out of your product? Is this true? Or not, because the research showed that it did, showed that it's not so many things that we as consumers believe or see in the marketing world, it is working or it is, is it real? So transparency needs to be there somehow, but it's not yet.

Right. I think that's a good point that there's, I feel like the gap is getting larger between what companies say, even good brands, right? There are even brands that are actually doing good because there's been so much greenwashing. There's been so many things to make people not trust that now it feels very hard to be able to get people to, to know that you're being honest, that you're actually, actually doing the sustainable thing. That you're supposed to. And it's funny, in the— I think I was at an event for home products, like home cleaning products, and they're having the discussion of, uh, they actually have a problem where there's too many certifications now, where consumers are getting confused because there's— well, there's this certification and there's this cert— and there's just so many. You don't know, and nobody knows how they're different. Nobody knows how they're scaled. And so the brands that are trying to do better and have better products, they're facing now this issue of, well, which certificate, like how, which certification do I pay for? Do I need to pay for 100 of them? Like, that's really expensive. Like now that's a, that's a whole other confusion level.

Yes. For, yes.

For consumers. So I love, I love this idea. You know, it's not necessarily about the certification as much as just a grading level and you can be certified or whatever, but I see what you've, you've looked at is really more of a—

Transparency. A, B, C, D, E. Yeah. From A to Z. Yeah. Like transparency from the making process, people that do work behind that, the people that are suffering in Pakistan and some other places from contaminated water, and they cause serious health issues over there. Many waste end up at landfills in Africa or Eastern Europe. So many things. But we just need something because imagine you in a store, you just see your favorite shirt that you are about to buy. You don't have the time to research because Don't get me wrong. European Union, a few years ago, they developed, still developing, let's say, a digital product passport, a product passport that would look like a QR code. So if you wish to check how the supply chain, materials, et cetera, you have to scan, go and read. When I'm doing shopping therapy with the girls, I don't have the time to read all this information before I go buy. I need something like the yogurt. A, B, C, D, is it good? Okay. If it's not, okay, I'm going to buy it, but I will know that this is not the best quality to wear it. And just, we just need some, something easy. And if we want to search further, let's search further. But no, I think it's not yet. Fashion industry is not there yet. The cleaning industry, as you said, the cleaning liquids that you mentioned earlier, was it cleaning liquids?

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. They are in another level of full of certifications. We are not even there yet in the fashion industry. We are far from that. So.

Right. Well, yeah. And it, and it's, you know, with foods, you have to show the ingredients and things like that. And the fashion industry, I feel like why, why we kind of pick on it the most is Like you said, we don't know what's in it. We don't know what's processed. There's no way to grade. And even the ones that do, right, the ones that are like, oh, this is 100% cotton. Okay, what does that— what does the average consumer know about that? Like, the average person does not know how to go grow cotton and harvest cotton. And probably that is not something, at least with food, We know, oh, well, I know how to mix food ingredients. Like, I know how cooking, like, that's something you know, at least, or at least have an idea of, right? Whereas produced goods like this, most people haven't watched. They don't know. They don't know how it, how it happens.

Let me tell you something very interesting. During my research, I did a survey and asked people from across the globe, like 100 people. Okay. And I asked like, do you know what sustainable fashion means? So around 82% of the respondents, they said like, yes, we do know what sustainable fashion means and what that is. But only the 6.2% of them, they think is as a factor before they Make a purchase or a decision. The first factor in their head is like style, size, price, offer. Sustainability is nowhere. So we have to change the mindset. We're so far. Like how people can adopt a healthy lifestyle and go every day to the gym. Can they make their wardrobe healthy? Because it's their health too. If I wear leggings or sportswear and go sweat, get sweaty, like, is the same thing.

Right.

Like, we have to think further than that. But trends, fast fashion, and many influencers on social media, they do huge holes. Like, how many times you see like, oh, I have a huge hole, let's explore. And they They need to buy more, especially for us girls. Like, okay, she got it. I have to buy it. And there is a trend lately. I'm sure you know about it. You're in America. So people, they don't want to wear the same piece if they have a photo of it uploaded. So I'm wearing this right now, this sweater. So I don't want to wear it again. And People see that I'm wearing the same piece again and again. So according to a study in the UK, consumers, they admit that 1 out of 10, they buy a clothing piece just to post a story, just to create a post on the social media, and they never wear it again. This is like—

Imagine, 1 out of 10. That's a really—

Yes, 1 out of 10. And this is huge. Like, where are we going? Like, where is that?

Right. Yeah, I knew, I knew about the trend. Like, I've known, you know, that's, that's something that people do.

Yeah.

I didn't realize like 10% of people that were— that's a lot. That's, that's a lot. I always thought it was like, you know, maybe influencers or just— but that's like a lot.

Yeah.

That's so many, that's so many people that are doing that. All of your research. Did you find— because I've, I have seen some people will use services where you like rent clothes to do, to go do photo shoots and stuff like that, but not actually buy it. But they seem very, very few places. Is that something that you have seen as or heard of? Because I'm just thinking all these people that are buying just for one photo, basically. They might want to, they might want to rent it instead of, instead of buying.

What's the difference? If I go rent and wear something for a photo or photoshoot, it's way, a way more healthier way, because I'm gonna return the rental piece back and someone else can buy or rent and use it again. If I go buy a piece, and this piece will end up in a landfill in Africa or Eastern Europe, this is huge waste. This is huge waste because even if it is a t-shirt, a cotton t-shirt, let's say, imagine for a clothing piece, it might need 100 or 200 liters of water to be made, to be produced. So imagine if we do have 92 million of waste that they're generated globally every single year. 92 million of waste, of clothing waste. And we keep buying and we keep this. Like, I see that people are going more to do thrifting and secondhand shopping, which is great, amazing. But again, in my research, only the 22% of the people that they have responded are willing to check secondhand stores. Only 22% of the respondents, they wanted to go check secondhand markets to buy their clothes. I'm a huge fan though. I'm a huge fan.

Hey, it's your host Ian. I'm really glad you're enjoying this episode. I absolutely love highlighting amazing brands and founders for the awesome things they are doing. I've helped hundreds of entrepreneurs and businesses like yours turn their boldest ideas into powerful purpose-driven brands. So if you're serious about building a brand people love, like our guests and clients do, and one that you're proud to stand behind, I invite you to dive a bit deeper with our book Conscious Design. Inside, you'll discover the exact framework and steps we use to help entrepreneurs like you turn purpose into a powerful impact-driven brand, brand that stands out, attracts loyal customers and drive sustainable growth with social and environmental responsibility woven into its DNA. Grab your copy today. You can find it on our website, consciousdesignhouse.com, or just find the link below in the show notes. Enjoy the rest of the episode and don't forget to like, subscribe, and share. Yeah, our teenagers actually were super into that.

Do you go thrifting?

Yeah, thrifting, thrifting. Oh yes, I have. Yep.

That's good.

Not always. And I think one of the, cuz there's obviously a little bit of a stigma of, oh, well, it's, it's used. It's not as, not as good. It's not as nice. But at the same time, like there's more here, here in the States, there's a lot of options that are really, really low end where you're like, yeah, you're, you are gonna dig through 95% just stuff that Nobody probably is going to buy.

Yeah.

Uh, but then there's also places, you know, one thing that people don't think of and they kind of lump into that is like consignment stores. There's all kinds of places where you can buy nice stuff, right? Really high, really high-end brands, really high-quality things that are used. So it also really just how you're willing to think about it. And everybody, I feel like there's still that getting people over. It's not just It's not dumpster diving, which I feel like there's a little bit of like, oh, well, you're just gonna go through somebody else's stuff that they didn't want, gave it away basically. But that's just like one kind and you can find cool stuff in there. I have, I have some thrifted shirts that I, I love.

Yeah.

But it's not, but there's also a lot of ways, you know, there's, you know, we don't think about that stuff with like buying cars. People buy used cars all the time.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, it's, it's an interesting, I feel like it's a very interesting psychological cultural thing. And, and yeah, I feel like you're, the 22% is about right. A lot of people are still not interested in it.

What we need to communicate as designers is like the greenwashing is a huge, another huge thing. Sustainability, huge brands that every girl goes there and they can say like, okay, maybe we are called fast fashion, but we, you can return your piece and we make new ones. Or you can, we are eco-friendly, all this greenwashing. They don't think the following, how is it possible for you to visit a fast fashion store that claims to be eco-friendly and we became, we become green while every single week it produces a new collection. Think about it. If you go every single week to a huge fast fashion store, they are major, you, we all know them. Go every single week, you're going to find out that they have Produced and they have new pieces, new collections. So the major fast fashion brands, they are making 50, around 52 collections per year, which means one collection every single week.

That is a lot.

A normal brand, not a specific, a huge high-end luxury brand make— is making around maximum 6 Collections per year.

Right. That's, that's what I always think of as a collection is like, it's a season.

Yes.

You do once every season. That's your collection. And then you do, you know, you'll do it again next year. But yeah, the 4, 6, if you want to add a special, you know, a couple special ones in this time.

For winter or summer or sportswear or whatever, but 52 collections per year, it mustn't be the way.

Right. I don't even think of that as like a collection. I think that's just stuff. Like how can you put enough energy into a collection? What else in your research, what did people think about this labeling system? So when you've, when you've shared it.

When I shared it one year ago, we had the masterclass at London School of Design and Marketing. So I was trying to explain and Once I showed the labeling system to the people, they started getting like, oh yes. Oh yeah. If it is a C, maybe I will go for another option. It was easy to be read. So easy to read it and you don't have to spend so much time. Again, it gives you a solution. Also, it gives you the the feeling that, oh, I want to invest in something good. I don't want to invest in something that the lifetime is up to 9 months. I don't want that. And if you ever think of it, so many people, they do have so many pieces that they're not, they don't wear into their wardrobes. Like we have 50 pieces and we actually wear 10. The rest 40 are waste, but they're sitting there, but actually they're waste, right? Yeah.

Right, right.

So people—

Yeah, and you're taking up room.

They accepted it and they adopt my thought and my design solution very easy and they liked it a lot. So I wanted to present, but actually this design, the labeling system offered me a PhD position at UCA to do some further research about it. And I'm thinking to also add AI into it nowadays because AI is thriving. So I was thinking like, what is, I was thinking, what is the major problem in sustainability, in sustainable fashion? The major problem is overconsumption, overproduction. Okay. So how we can limit the overproduction? We can use AI-driven inventory. So we collect the data that we have from the previous collections, for example, See how many pieces are sold, how many pieces our consumers are going to need, they're going to buy from us. And we are predicting the number and we are making not a massive production. We're making exactly the— we produce exact, the exact number that we're going to sell. We have AI, we have to use it. We don't have to create samples again and again. This is a huge waste too. We can use AI and virtual try-ons. This is another solution. Or if applicable, if I make— I know someone who makes sneakers, is a footwear designer, and he makes sneakers in a 3D printer, factory-free, on-demand production.

Mm-hmm.

So, There are so many solutions that I don't know if brands want to adopt, to be honest.

Right. Yeah. That's a whole other— there can be solutions, but you have to actually use them and want, and want to use them.

Yeah.

That I've been learning a little bit more about. I think it's 3D knitting. 3D machine knitting.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 3D knitting. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, those machines are finally— they're not, they're not cheap yet, but they are starting to get less expensive, I'll say, is the best way to put it. And so that kind of, you know, new equipment and new machines, that on-demand, um, kind of thing. But it's also— I feel like it's so ingrained, you know, culturally that you Go to a store and there's inventory and you look through, like, you know, the shopping experience requires there to be— you have to have inventory. There's other things that you, you know, you can go into and maybe actually furniture stores could be an option of this where they have demo. There's some industry like furniture where you'll have— you'll go into a store and they'll go, oh, well, we have, you know, here's the couch. You can sit on it. You can try it out. But if you want to buy it, going, you know, we're going to build it for you and then we're going to ship it to you and it's going to be 6 weeks, right? There's this time difference. And I think that comes to the instant fashion. Instant fashion is a fast fashion. It's very much, I want to have it. I want to have it now in the next, you know, 2 days and then wear it, take some photos and then— And then be done with it. So it's a very huge cultural shift to change that.

To be honest, I, from my research, I realized that the new generations, especially Gen Z, they prioritize somehow shopping or thrifting. And that's a great thing because it looks like the new generations, they do care about where this whole thing goes. wear this, that we have to have a solution and it's so good. But yeah, fast fashion, instant fashion, as you said, is I want it now. So there, that's why fast fashion brands, they make trends and they have to produce and to create new trends and new pieces every single month or every single week, because they have to push the trend that you're going to wear, feel okay, cover maybe some insecurities. Because everything is about like, how can I look like, okay, I'm gonna wear this and never gonna wear it again. It's a psychological game, to be honest. So—

Yeah, it's gonna take a pretty— I feel like it's gonna take a pretty big cultural shift to do that. And, or, you know, I could see something like your label, that labeling system being something that You know, if you were required to do that, it might start changing, might start changing some people's behavior. 'Cause you'll actually see, you'll actually see the impact that you're making. You can't avoid making the decision now. You know, you know what you're deciding basically.

Yes. And to be honest, I think also it needs to become trend. Like it wasn't from the marketing side, not from the designer side now. So I ended up my presentation of my thesis. On discovering ways on how sustainability can be famous, can become a trend. So I ended up creating digital posters with meaningful messages like, how would you rate the OOTD, the outfit of the day, but not how would you rate in terms of style, but in terms of labeling, like, is it AAAAA or is it EDCB, without me, with a more meaningful message. So I created some digital posters and provide this conscious choice and everything. And how safe is your dress today? But not how safe not to be, to show something, but how safe for your skin or messages that consumers can see that there is a huge, a real problem. It's a real problem. It's not just people are just screaming and say, hey, go buy sustainable brands and everything.

Right. It's real. And, and also I think, you know, one of the, I was, I was part of a group that did a couple surveys, but one of them was that people were very interested or willing to do things that are more sustainable. More circular, but they had, one of the things that they had to know and be able to decide. And I think that's one of the really important things from your research project is if you give somebody the ability to make a decision, then they can actually start deciding. But if there's no way, if there's no way to tell from the label without doing a ton of research, right? And you You did an entire research project to figure some of the stuff out. It takes too much time. It takes too much research to figure it out. And so if you can give that information in that easy readable format, like the lettering, right? It's super easy.

Yes.

It's green to red. It's A through E. Like, there you go. That's it. There's, you take away all the The hard decision, hard research, and then you give an easy way to go, well, this one's A, this one's B, which one, which one do you like? Which one do you want? And it makes it— because people are willing to, there's not a— even in the US, as divided as we are on some things, most, the average person across the board, happy to do things more sustainably, but they have to know.

Yeah.

You have to give them the ability to do, to do it. And obviously, you know, price comes in as a factor too, but also information. Can you actually make a decision about this?

Yes.

And that's where it breaks. If you have to do research, then that breaks it down really quick. And there's like the little percentage where people go, oh, I'll do, I'll do all the research. I'll learn what the ingredient names are and I'll do that. But most people, they just, They don't have the time and don't have the willingness to go spend a year researching.

It's, it's not, it's time-consuming to do research when you outgo for shopping, right? Like, it doesn't make sense. Like, okay, let me do my research before I go to purchase this t-shirt. No, it doesn't work like that. It's not, it's not working like that. But you are in the US, so let me give you that info. US wastes 2,000 pieces every single second. 2,000 pieces of— 2,100-something pieces every second of textile is wasted in the US.

Sounds about right.

I'm telling you this, and like, how huge is this waste? What we can do? And Just to think, it's not about the labeling system I designed only. It's not about the efforts. The true, the real efforts that brands do is the way that we think fashion and the way we consume, we create, and we understand the whole entire fashion system. This is what it has to change. It's not only the digital product passport or my labeling system is how we as consumers are— we are responsible individuals who we do care about the world. It's not only— you don't, you don't have to care only what about to eat, what are you wearing, right? We have to make it a lifestyle, I think.

Yeah, I think that's a good point. Because we do focus a lot on, well, the food we're eating. And then we kind of stop there. Right there. A lot of it. Well, I'm eating right. I'm eating healthy. So—

My car is electric, so I'm not wasting. Okay. But what about—

There you go.

Yeah. Clothes is like, it covers all of your body. How we ignore that huge thing? Fashion is in our mind. How we ignore this huge factor of sustainability? And all of this, I ended up having Creating actually a design solution.

Yeah, there's a lot, which is why there's a lot of people tackling it and trying to figure it out, because we need a lot of people to be able to do that.

We've come a long way though.

Yes.

It looks pretty far, but let's see.

We'll keep moving. People like you will keep moving, moving forward, and we'll, we'll see, we'll see when we get To the end. But, you know, I think, I think one of the things that people kind of don't think about is that this, this kind of thing doesn't really end either. Like, people, people are really focused on, oh, we'll get to be sustainable and then we'll just sit there. But one of the whole things is that we— the reason why we are where we are is because we didn't keep thinking about it. We didn't keep— it's not something that we stop. You have to always be looking at what can we do better, how can we be more sustainable. It's a long journey for, I would assume, the rest of the lifespan of our species. And that's something people don't like to think about, that there's an end goal they magically get to cross and go, all right, we're done, we don't have to think about sustainability anymore.

Yeah, it's a lot.

But it's— yeah, ingraining it into our culture, I think, is more important. And having it just be there. That's how we—

And also important is to people like us who design a sustainable solution or everything regarding sustainability in any industry, uh, it is good to have someone to present to. So your podcast does this too. So shout out to this because it's a huge thing, right? To, to have someone to discuss this labeling system of, or any sustainable solution, which is a conscious design project again. Okay. It's huge. So shout out to you and thanks for, for this opportunity.

Well, thank— and yeah, it's the whole reason I did this podcast was research. It started with research for the book, and then I realized that there's a ton of sustainable materials and companies that are doing really cool things that need to be— people need to know about them. And so that was kind of the impetus of this. And now I get to talk to cool people like you about what you're doing and, and share these ideas because I'm, I'm a real firm believer that we already have all the solutions. We just need to figure out who has the solution in their head already and then help them do it. Like, that's—

Yeah.

That is—

Yeah.

It's not— we have plenty of smart people on the planet. The solution is there. Somebody's thought of it. We just need to highlight the right person and have them get the resources to make it happen. So.

Exactly. And sometimes the problem is that the solution we provide, even if it is regarding sustainability or other— yeah, sustainability in general, let's talk about it. It stops where it meets the profit.

Okay.

Sustainable solutions might not be so profitable for companies. So there is also a fight. So even we have to try as designers to push, or as people, they have solutions, not only designers regarding sustainability, to push and find digital innovation to the companies that they design things or making things like, Okay, you can provide sustainability and transparency and use it as an advantage to make your profits higher. It doesn't mean that if you have to be sustainable or if you have to be transparent to your audience, you have to, you're going to have lower profits because people are going to buy less. Okay. Provide your transparency, provide, make your, the audience yours. And you're going to find other ways that they can be sustainable to have profits again. So yeah, I think they have to also, companies, to reconsider the way that they approach their audience. It's not only overproduce stuff and, and have huge waste.

Right.

They have to, they can adapt a new era, a new way of thinking like, okay, I need profits. Okay, let me engage somewhere, something different this time, let's say.

Right. Well, I think that's a good point, right? A lot of times people think about, they try to make what they're doing right now sustainable, more sustainable, but the model that they have is based on most likely some very unsustainable processes, right? Or behaviors. So Thinking about it, I love that you brought it up. Think about the whole process. Maybe you change your business model, right? It's not just about— yeah, if you just swap materials, it could be a bad business, right? It could be too expensive and nobody buys it, nobody does it. But if you step up a level higher and go, well, if we want to be sustainable, how can we do that profitably rather than— It's a bandaid. I feel like it's almost like a bandaid they try to stick on it.

Yes. And not only that, and if you are more transparent, the audience gonna believe you and you're gonna create some fans. Okay. Oh, I believe that. Yeah, I do like that, but I believe this brand. So because I'm a fan of this brand, I'm gonna buy again and again because I know that they have fair wages, people that they work behind, they're not suffering. The materials are good for my skin and everything. Like, it's a whole— just to change the whole entire system. We're far from that. But I really believe that one day it's gonna happen. I think it's a good point.

Amazing. Well, I think this is a perfect place. And this has been super fun chatting with you about this. I love I love what you— your research is, is on and what you found. Uh, I, I love the idea. So hopefully somebody, somebody will pick that up and start to use it. Uh, would make it so much easier for every— for everyone.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and we'll have, for everyone that is listening, there will be links in the description so you can check that out. It is It's on your website as your kind of reports on there. So love that. And then for anybody that wants to reach out, what is the best way? I know you're on socials and you have the website, but what's the best way to reach out to you?

So maybe on my website, they can find my social profiles and also the email if they want to reach out, go ahead. And also, shout out to your Conscious Design book, guys. If you want to— yes, go take a look and go buy and learn more about conscious design in general. It's not only about sustainable fashion, it covers more and many things more.

Amazing. Well, thanks so much for being on the show. This has been really fun chatting with you, Vicki.

Thanks so much, Ian, for having me.

And everyone go And that wraps up another episode of the Conscious Design Podcast. If today's episode inspired you to bring your product idea to life and turn it into a sustainable 7-figure business, visit petermanfirm.com or click the link below. Your ideas have the power to change the world, and we're here to help make that happen. Thank you for joining us, and I'll see you on the next episode.