The Very Visible Business Podcast Episode 18 - Stephen Shapiro

Get ready for the Very Visible Business Podcast with David Avron each week featuring a candid and raucous conversation with some of the most innovative, outspoken and entrepreneurial business minds in the world today. This is the Very Visible Business Podcast and here's David Averin and welcome to.

The Very Visible Business Podcast. My name is David Avren. We have a very special edition today because it is the husky, sexy voice edition of the podcast. Because I have been fighting a cough that has just been kicking my butt and right now I am so coked up on cough medicine and other various prescriptions that God only knows what we're going to say in this episode, but you've tuned into the right one and I will power through it. And it's worth it to listen to my husky voice because of the conversation that we're going to have today. We're going to talk about innovation, we're going to talk about disruption and how do we gain meaningful competitive advantage by really understanding where the market is going and even better, maybe driving some of those changes as opposed to trying to keep up. And nobody better to talk to than my friend Steven Shapiro. Steven is an innovation guru. He's one of the pioneers in this industry and I just had an opportunity actually to see him just a week ago with the annual gathering of the extroverts for the national convention for the national speakers Association, about 2,000. I think they would argue with me as to whether or not they're all extroverts, but anybody who gets on stage, I think has to have some measure of that. A phenomenal week. A lot of talking, not a lot of listening, just saying, just not a lot doesn't happen that way. So before we talk to him, I'm going to give the formal introduction for those of you who are listening who may not be familiar with Steven Shapiro because the credentials are strong, he has presented his perspectives on innovation to audiences in over 50 countries around the world. I think I'm up to 24, so you're more than double me at this point. He started his work in innovation back in 1996 when he created and led a 20,000 person innovation practice for the consulting firm Accenture. He's the author of five books, including Best Practices Are Stupid, which was named one of the best innovation books of the year. His sixth book, Invisible Solutions and I've seen previews of this, it is Phenomenal, will be out next year. His clients include Marriott, 3M, Procter and Gamble. Microsoft heard of him, Nike heard of him. And Nassau. My father worked there in 2015, I was in the audience as he was inducted into the speaker hall of Fame. When he's not on stage speaking about innovation, he's practicing his not so sleight of hand magic on his family and his friends. Steven Shapiro, thanks for being with us here today.

It's always great to be here. And just to dispel the myth that it was 2000 extroverts and it must have been 1999, because I'm definitely an introvert.

Are you really? See, it's crazy. I'm one of those people that people are wondering, do you have an alter ego? And I'm the same guy on stage as I am offstage, but I'm one of those weird guys that actually likes to go to the mall at Christmas time. I'm one of those people that actually gets energy from being around people. So I have actually great admiration for people who maybe aren't wired that way. So how did you, before we even get into the innovation, how did you decide that I'm going to put myself out there and teach what I know? If it's something that maybe is a little bit contrary to your wiring.

Well, see, here's the interesting thing. And I wondered, I've been speaking for about three or four years and I took a personality test and I tested as a strong introvert and I asked the guy, how is that possible? I love being on stage. He says there's a difference between a speaker and a trainer. A speaker is actually separate from the audience. A trainer's in the middle of the audience. And I know when I do and I do training, I do full day workshops.

Sure.

And those I will sleep for a month after I'm done. The keynotes, they're still exhausting because I put so much of my heart and soul into them, but they don't, you know, they don't rob me as much of my energy as the more intimate gatherings where I feel like I have to really be totally there every minute, engaging in every conversation.

That's fascinating to me. I mean, as I watch you on stage and you were so engaging and you know, for those of listening and the small business mid sized business owners who listen to this podcast, it isn't geared towards speakers. Of course, a lot of my colleagues are speakers, but the whole idea is that they're subject matter experts. And so as I watch you and the things that I learned from you, I want to talk about that today. I want to talk about innovation and what that looks like today. Talk to me a little bit about the journey. I don't know that it's that important to know about your past and everything else. But talk to us about how even the subject of innovation has changed. Because I think for so long as I've seen it, it was sort of incremental innovations. Like what's the next little bit to make something better? Today we are seeing vast disruption. And of course that's the buzzword as well, is people completely rethinking how we do what we do. And you're not just a messenger, but you are a catalyst for that.

Yeah, I mean, innovation. I remember back in the mid-90s, innovation was actually synonymous with product development. So it was really only the people wearing long white robes, sitting on high mountains, handing down the gospel from the top of the company. And that's been a major change now. Innovation has been democratized. Everybody inside of an organization is participating. But I still think the goal of innovation has not changed. And the goal of innovation is long term competitive advantage. That to me. So it's not. I mean, the problem is, I think sometimes we get so excited about novelty and disruption and being different in technology that we lose sight of what we're really trying to accomplish here. So I think even though we see disruptive technologies like AI and 3D printing and virtual reality and augmented reality and the list goes on, that's not innovation per se, it's what they can do for you as an organization that could be innovative, that could be transformative. But again, at the end of the day, it's what is the value proposition from what you create and what you get.

Well, and I think you make a really good point because not everything applies to everybody. Some people, it's fascinating to watch AI and I was just with a colleague in Bogota, Colombia, we were talking about disruption, artificial intelligence. And some people wondering, well, how does this apply to me? And I think you're exactly right. I think the smart organizations recognize, okay, what can it do for us? Because some of the innovation that we're seeing because we live in a, in a crazy time, and I would love your thoughts on this, is because we really have no unmet needs. Now I'm not suggesting that there aren't people who have legitimate needs in the world, but I mean in terms of products and services and technology in the industrialized world, now we're seeing solutions, looking for problems, innovation for the sake of innovation. And it's like, okay, do I need that? And one of the best examples, there's this commercial for this Fit vegetable spray. Have you seen that? You're supposed to spray this on your vegetables to get them cleaner because you're not getting them clean in the sink. And I'm thinking, I'm not buying that, like literally and figuratively, there is a solution. Looking for a problem. You know, how often are we sitting there going, you know what? I love vegetables, but I struggle to get them clean in the sink. Not happening. So because we have everything, we are seeing some crazy innovation. It doesn't really meet a need, does it?

Well, and that's exactly it. I mean, so, you know, it's not an internal thing. I mean, I think the biggest mistake that companies make is they believe that their ideas are good. Their ideas are actually irrelevant. And when you ask employees for ideas, you typically. Or if you ask yourself for ideas, the odds are it's probably a bad idea. So I always say asking for ideas is a bad idea because everybody has.

But say more about that. Why is it typically a bad idea?

Well, first of all, it is typically not outside in. So you need to understand what the market wants. There's a difference between being different and being differentiated. And a lot of people think that I'm going to create something different. Novelty is not innovation. Differentiation is. Differentiation is basically what the customer, what the market values. You need to create products and services and offerings that meet their needs and the way they want to deliver. So it always has to be outside in. And most ideas.

Aren't our leaders lured by the romance of novelty and the quick hit and the quick, maybe even quick press or something going viral or something, being like, these guys are doing something really, really cool, really neat, something different? Are they lured by wanting instant gratification as opposed to the hard work of looking at where are their complaints in the marketplace? Where's the traditional underperformance within your category that you can address through innovation, through some measure of creativity?

Yeah, I think it's interesting because if you look at it, most leaders actually fall into two opposite extremes and individual actually have both of those extremes at one level. Yeah, like you said, it's the novelty, it's the newness, it's the chasing the bright shiny object. It's. We're afraid if we don't start doing what everybody else is doing, we're going to fall behind. On the flip side, though, we as human beings are not wired for change and innovation. We're actually wired for survival. And so at a deep subconscious level. And this is. Don't want to get into all the science behind it, but you can go ahead. Well, there was an interesting study that was recently done by Cornell University. And what they did was they asked executives, leaders in companies, their thoughts on innovation, change and creativity. Basically everybody said the same thing, yes, we want it, we need it, we embrace it, we love it, we have to have it. They then used a test which is called the implicit association test, which is a tool developed by Harvard, which helps you understand subconscious beliefs, not what you say, but what you truly believe at your deepest level. And they correlated the words creativity with other words in the three words that were most highly linked to creativity, where agony, pain and vomit. Even though they say they want it at a deep level, the uncertainty of change is something which we're not wired for. So it's. We have these conflicting battles that happen inside our heads and inside of organizations as a result.

What are the pressures that leaders are feeling within organizations that are driving them to want change, want something different? Is it just the competitive forces? Is it just the recognition of commoditized marketplaces? Everybody's doing the same thing, everybody. We've got to do something different. And are they just not thinking about it deep enough? Or as you said, are they just not thinking about it from the right perspective?

I think it's a combination of all of that. I think what happens is we get into sort of this survival. Again, it's all survival. And when you're in survival mode, you're going to basically lash out at anything and grab onto anything which is going to help you stay afloat. So there is a bit of that going on. At the same time, I think what's happening is that leaders are, it depends on where you are in the company. I think that's another important thing to say is I think the top leaders, the top executives in a company, no changes needed, they may not know how to do it or where to go, but they know it's needed. And the people who are at the lowest level of an organization see what's needed, but don't have necessarily an outlet. But they also don't have the strategic mindset. They have that tactical day to day interaction mindset. And it's the people in the middle, the frost layer, the middle management that actually doesn't want to change because they're about protecting their jobs in most cases. As a generalization, right when we talked.

At the very beginning here, you talked about that some of that for the first time, some of that change is being driven internally, that everybody sort of has a role where they traditionally were, the implementers, I guess, of whatever the policies and procedures. Let's talk about driving innovation. Let's talk about, excuse me, where the, where the ideas are coming from and sort of bolster that claim. How are we engaging our employees to think more to come? I mean, because they're the ones who are working on the front lines, they're the ones who are seeing the problems, they're the ones seeing the complaints. As I talk, customer experience, where's the friction? And how do companies better employ and access that expertise and the life experience of their people to drive some of this?

So it tends to be a journey. So the first thing would be, even though I said asking for ideas is a bad idea, that's typically the first step in the journey for an organization. The reason is, like you said, the people who are out there who are talking to customers, who are closest to the problem, see things. Now, they might be low hanging fruit, they might not be strategic, but look, there's still value in it. And that process gets people engaged. So we need to just first of all become good problem solvers. What are the problems? What are the solutions?

But let me ask you real quick before you move on, as you talk about, you know, sort of the danger of asking questions, if we give them more of a specific scenario, specific category, specific subject matter, are we getting better information, better ideas than sort of casting a broad net saying what ideas do you have?

That's stage two. Because stage two is where we flip it from asking people for ideas and we move it to asking people for solutions. So the best way to engage people, but you don't start here quite often for a variety of reasons, is you, you figure out what are the strategic problems, the differentiating opportun that you have as an organization and you ask those questions to your employees, to your customers, to your vendors, to your partners, and you have them find solutions. And there's. What we find is when we ask questions, specific, well framed questions, we get typically a tenfold improvement on the innovation returns than we do when we just ask for ideas. Because most suggestion boxes, I've done studies on this, most suggestion boxes have less than 1%. The ideas get implemented. In most cases it's closer to 1/10 of a percent. And even what's implemented tends to be low enough, low value. So the ROI on a suggestion box is usually negative, but it's a tool for engagement.

Right? And historically it's been a repository for complaints and people bitching about stuff. And then they get more angry because they feel like nothing happened as a result. I mean, that's the 1960s and 70s and 80s as well, so talk to me about, and talk to all of us about what innovation looks like today. Because even when you talk about engaging the people, how do we take the parameters off? I don't want to use the old, well worn, out of the box, whatever. How do we take the parameters off? Do we talk about waving a magic wand? Do we talk about if price was no issue and allow people to think much bigger and broader about unique solutions, unique scenarios that than they would have traditionally done? Is that part of the process?

Well, it's interesting because I'm not a big fan of this thinking outside the box because the brain loves constraints. The brain actually wants a box. The issue is we tend to be in the wrong box. So you don't want to think outside the box. You want to find a better box. That's one of my strong beliefs. So if we give people, the employees, the better box, it will help frame their thinking in a way that will help accelerate their ability to find solutions. Now we need to give them tools like you're talking about. There's a whole set of tools that I have which allow people to find solutions to the problem that they might have not seen before. And that's why the new book is called Invisible Solutions. There are solutions right in front of your nose. You just can't see it because you're asking the wrong question. You're not thinking about it the right way. Right.

But isn't that because we're just, we're so close to the problem? You tell a story that I would love you to share for our audience as well. That that takes this to a different place, which is the whole idea of a different box. Maybe it's the idea of saying, let's look at this from a different perspective. And you tell a story about people's impatience and waiting for their luggage at the airport. Tell that for our listeners. And talk to me about not only a unique solution, but just a unique mindset that actually came to the kind of solution you're looking for, but through a very roundabout way.

Yeah, so I'll tell the short version of this. Basically, you know, an airport had people complaining about how much time they had to wait a baggage claim. So what they found was that it was taking 15 to 20 minutes for the bags to get from the plane to the baggage carousel. So they spent a lot of time, money and energy trying to speed up the bags. They got it from 15 to 20 minutes down to 8 to 10 minutes. Now, you know, if you cut the time in half, that's pretty good. People would be happy with it. Customers, passengers were still complaining, so they realized they couldn't speed up the bags anymore without spending too much money. And then they sort of had this. This epiphany, and they realized that the bags took eight to 10 minutes, but the passengers only took one to three minutes. It was a smaller airport. So instead of speeding up the bags, they slowed down the passengers and they literally reconfigured the airport so that it would take the passengers 8 to 10 minutes to get from the plane to the baggage carousel. And here's what I love about this is, first of all, they were solving the wrong problem to begin with. It was about wait time, not speed of the bags. And sometimes even something as simple as that shift, because wait time is speed of bags and speed of passengers.

Sure.

But then we can take this even a step further, which I love, which, you know, you and I travel a lot, even if we have to wait for our bags. Part of the issue is it is the most boring, terrible experience.

Right.

So we could take the problem, you know, how do we reduce the wait time change, two words to how do we improve the wait experience? And now we get a different range of options. And we could play with this all day. But the problem is we seem to think like we have the right problem we're solving. And if we're not solving the right problem, if we're trying to speed up bags, we're not going to think to slow down passengers. If we're reducing wait time, we're not going to think to improve the wait experience. But these questions are so important, and.

This is what you do. And, you know, one of the pioneers, of course, of this was Disney, which you knew you're going to have to wait forever. And creating ways of different carousels or different path and entertainment along the way. I mean, it's still kind of a pain to have to sit and wait forever, but it's a different way of thinking. How do you, as a speaker, as an author in this space, how do you help leaders understand that mind shift? How much of it do they need to have it facilitated? How much of that can they do on their own? And what are some of the catalysts to help them think differently about solving problems, about enhancing that customer experience? Because we can sort of say it as an admonition. Right. Think differently. Okay, what, what does that mean? How. Give me some. Give me some tools to make that happen. Sure.

And I think, you know, the mistake that most people make is they think it's about the answer. And it's not. It's about the question. So where I spend most of my time with people is, how do we ask the right question, the right way? And the first piece is about differentiation. You can't be the best at everything. You need to focus your energies. Therefore, you want to innovate where you differentiate. So that's sort of. That first piece is figure out why do people do business with you and not someone else? What are the most important things that you offer? Then how do you make sure that you are the absolute world's best at that? And everything else, use a completely different strategy. So that, to me, is sort of the first step, which then leads to, okay, now that we know what our differentiator is, what are the questions we should be asking and how do we reframe those questions? Like the baggage claim example, that's a perfect one, is most companies are running around trying to speed up bags. They're not thinking to slow down passengers. And that, to me, is the key. And my goal in working with companies is to help them learn the process so that after a while, they build the muscle. It's not easy in the beginning, right? But I give them tools that allow them to ask better questions, and over time, it becomes part of their DNA, and that's the ultimate goal.

And is it an ongoing process? Are we always asking the questions? And what are some of the catalysts internally? Is it complaints? Is it oftentimes the catalyst something didn't go right, or a massive loss in market share because of a new competitor or disruptor in the space, what's the catalyst for organizations that bring you in.

It typically tends to be companies that either feel like they're becoming commoditized or they're being displaced, or it's about digital disruption. I mean, it tends to be those three things. So if you look at companies that are becoming commoditized, it's product manufacturers where now you can go overseas and get something for, you know, significantly less money. Okay, how do you compete in that environment? Or you have companies that feel like they're being displaced where technology is now starting to offer services. Like if you look at blockchain and AI, well, those are. Now those two together are starting to offer capabilities that human beings used to do that now machines can do. Well, if you're a service provider, for example, that only offers, you know, certain types of accounting services, well, as the technology gets better, your accounting services may be in trouble. So it's a combination of all different areas. But I would say that for most Companies, it is. They're worried about the future. Quite simply, that's all it's about, is the future.

Right. And as you were saying, I think a lot of them take the shortcut and they're looking for the shining object. We have a lot of clients who are always chasing that shiny object. You know, our colleague Sally Hogshead has a great line where she talks about different is better than better. Right. Those who say we're better at this, well, sometimes we don't need better. Right. Sometimes we're fine with who we're working with. Oh, but we're better.

Yeah.

And you're 5% more. I'm fine. But different for the sake of different doesn't work, does it? It has to be, as we said, different to solve a specific problem. What process are organizations going through to really understand maybe that source of customer dissatisfaction to drive innovation that's meaningful for them and not just meaningful for us.

I mean, it all starts with a conversation. And the biggest mistake I think companies make is they take an inside out approach. They need to get out there. They need to be like Indiana Jones. They need to put on their fedora and start talking to people. You need to ask people in a smart way, why do you do business with me and not someone else? Talk to law.

We're finding a lot of them are afraid to ask that question. As I was leading Vistage CEO groups for years, we'd have that question of saying, are you asking your customers why they do this? And there's a reticence to do so because they're afraid they're going to go, yeah, why are we, Marjorie, why don't we put that out to bid? You know, and so they're kind of like, don't rock the cart. Things are going well, but they're really vulnerable, aren't they? Because anytime you stop wooing your customers and you say, we've been working with them for years, they love us, there's a real risk of another organization wanting to take our longtime customer and turning them into their first time customer.

Well, exactly. There's a really great book I recommend. It's called why Customers Leave. Strongly recommend it.

You know what? I actually have a copy of it. Right. For those of you watching the video version, here it is. Here. Hey, thank you. I wasn't going to do it myself. Well, I figured you might, but you're a good man.

The reason why I mention that though is because that's the second group you want to talk to is the people who were your customers and are no longer your customers. And the third group are people who never did business with you. And there's a process we use to triangulate and you have to do it right. Because the problem is the questions we ask are going to drive the answers we get from people and we don't want to lead the witness. There's a process we need to use to make sure we're getting the right information. I'll just tell you a quick story. I was working with a client of mine and we had 10 of their top executives for this one division. And I brought into the room their largest customer and an expert in their industry, a consultant in their industry. And those two last individuals were not allowed to say a thing. They were only to observe the first hour. And during the first hour we had the conversation. Why do you think customers do business with you? Why do you think they go to your competitors? What's your differentiate? So we had that long conversation and after about an hour of listening to people talking, I knew what the punchline was going to be. I turned to the biggest customer and said, did they get it right? The guy shook his head and said, not even close. So people don't. Companies don't even get out to truly have these types of conversations. You can't innovate if you don't know what people need.

Speaking of that, I want to take it to a different place here. Let's talk about future proofing an organization, because we know that the rate of change has been dramatic and phenomenal. I'm not, once again not trying to throw out buzzwords, but. But we know just by looking at various other industries, how disruption has changed, how they do business, how we buy from them, what our expectations are of them as well. So when you're working with organizations and saying not only how do we innovate, how do we do things today, but how do we make sure that we are relevant 18 months from now, two years from now, so that we are not disrupted out of the marketplace? How do we make sure that we're not chasing that change, but leading it? Let's talk about future proofing.

Sure. And by the way, my definition of innovation is actually relevance. I think that is the best synonym because we tend to confuse innovation with all these other things, whether it's novelty, creativity, it's not. It's relevance. And in differentiation, there are five, what I call five Ds of differentiation. The two I want to just talk about to address what you're talking about is one is being durable and one is being disruption. Proof durable just means that you can't be on the hamster wheel. If you are coming up with what you think is a differentiator and others are able to replicate it, that's not a differentiator. So the first thing is making sure that whatever you create is difficult for someone else to do.

Well, you know who talks about this, Mr. Wonderful talks about this on Shark Tank when he says anybody could do this, you know, I could do it today, I could throw. Instead of giving you $200,000, I'll do it myself. And. And they're speechless. So that durable is great. There's a measure of resilience and competitor proof. What's the next one?

Well, and I just want to say one last thing on that is a lot of people think that technology. I've worked with so many companies that say we develop this cool technology, that's our differentiator. I'm like, I guarantee you in 12 months time your competition is going to take what you created, improve upon it, leapfrog you, and now all of a sudden your technology is no longer a differentiator, it's an anchor. Happens consistently. The next one that is disruption proof. I don't think companies should be in the business of trying to be disruptive. If you're a bigger company, let's put it that way, smaller companies, new entrants, their goal is to be disruptive. But the bigger is more established companies, you just want to make sure that you're not going to become irrelevant based on what's happening. And there's so many really cool examples of companies that are investing in the future. For example, ups. I love the way UPS thinks because what they realize is their biggest competition in the Future is not FedEx, it's not even Amazon or drones, it's actually 3D printing. Because once it, once 3D printing gets to the point and it's getting there quickly, that you can basically take any item you want and print it in pretty much any material. And all you have to do is email a blueprint. There's no shipping involved anymore. And so UPS is investing heavily in 3D printing in their stores, but also in partnerships and alliances. And I think that's the mindset you want to be thinking about is what's coming down the line that could put me out of business and then get ahead of the game. Not become disruptive, but make sure you're disruption proof.

You know, one of the things I talk about is the difference between I talk about innovation and disruption is who's driving it. I Think if it happens to you, it's disruption. If you're the one leading it, it's innovation. The question is, how complacent are we? And I think that's the real danger, is that measure of complacency. And I think there's going to be some significant players who are going to fall by the wayside. And we're already seeing that with the Toys R Us and the Sears and the Blockbusters and things of the world as well. What are you seeing in the marketplace? What are you seeing in terms of acceptance and adherence and recognition of not only the changes that are coming, but what it takes to stay relevant and to drive that? Is it pervasive? Is it growing? Are we going to see another rash of significant players fall by the wayside because they just waited too long to chase the cheese?

Yeah. So, first of all, one of my thoughts is expertise is the enemy of innovation. So coming back to your point of the Blockbusters and the Sears and all of that, look, it wasn't that they didn't have money, they didn't have resources, they didn't have. They had everything. I mean, Sears was like the world's largest retailer, but their expertise got in the way because they thought their past success would lead to future success. And it's usually exactly the opposite. Past success, future failure, if you don't make these shifts. And so what I see is companies hopping on the innovation bandwagon, often through a technology mindset. We need digital transformation. We need AI, we need blockchain. And they talk to me and they say, you know, do you talk about those? And I say, I do, but it's not where I lead. It's a cultural transformation that allows for that rapid evolution of an organization. And that's where I focus my energies, is how do we create a nimble organization that can. Whatever new technology comes their way, they're able to dance with it quickly and be able to move in the right direction and help them even figure out what is the right direction. So it's not about the technology that that's become sort of the Trojan horse. I think a lot of organizations, we need a new technology platform. Maybe you don't, but at least if it is getting you thinking that you need to change, that's good, because now I can at least pull you back to reality of what's truly needed.

For those who are listening or those who are watching it on the website here, what is it that they can learn from? Watching other industries? Traditionally, we were always compared to others in our Industry, we had to be better than others who do what we do. Now, of course, we're being compared with other industries. You know, well, what I can. But on Uber, I can see the face of my driver and I can see exactly where they are. Why can't I see that with you? Well, Amazon can deliver in 30 minutes. Why can't you? What would be your advice for those who are listening about looking and learning from other industries? To see potential dark clouds on the horizon for them?

Yeah, it might not even be about dark clouds. It's just there's two reasons for doing it.

One is blue skies, right?

Maybe blue skies. I mean, I think one of it is, is to understand what is going on in terms of customer expectations. Because like you said, if I can get something delivered to me in two days, I'm not going to wait two weeks, regardless of what industry it is. When we moved and we had our furniture moved, we couldn't understand why it took, I don't know, it felt like six months for our furniture to get to our house. It made no sense and they couldn't tell us where our furniture was. So that's the first thing, is to just understand the expectations because they're constantly being elevated. But the other one is, I think some of the best breakthroughs, some of the best breakthrough ideas will come from other industries. Let me give you just a quick example. I love this example. It is a group that gets together once a year, but then there's meetings in between called Pumps and Pipes. And Pumps and Pipes is a group of cardiologists who get together with people from the gas pipeline industry and they basically share what they know about the cardiovascular system and how does it apply to the transmission of oil and gas and vice versa. And these are two logically, purposefully put together groups because it's all about fluid through a tube. And there's some really cool innovations that have been developed through this. So I encourage people to take a percentage of their time. Don't just talk to people in your industry. Don't just talk to people in your area of expertise. But find what I call a purposeful tangent. What is that group that is similar to yours? You're solving similar problems, but it's a different industry or different area of expertise. And now you'll get some brilliant insights. And, yeah, it'll help you see what's going on in terms of expectations, but also help you rapidly solve problems. My belief is every problem you're working on, someone has solved it. You just need to reframe the question in a way that'll help you find it.

Right. And some of those solutions are coming from disparate industries. That's what's sort of driving the CEO groups, the YPOs, the Vistage, and others as well is get together with others or bring in people like you. Speaking of which, how do people get in touch with you who want to learn more about Steven Shapiro?

Well, the best way is to go to steveshapiro.com because there's two ways to spell Steven, so it's always easy to go with that. So SteveShapiro.com is going to be the best way to learn about my thoughts on innovation, my personality Poker system, which is a tool for helping you understand how you contribute to innovation and all of that. So that's the best place.

Cool. And then the new book, remind us the new book when it's coming out and what else they can get and where they can get it.

Sure. So Invisible Solutions coming out in January of 2020. It'll be available pretty much anywhere and everywhere. So hopefully everything goes on schedule and that's when you'll see it.

Cool. Good book. Highly recommend it. For the next part. I put on my very smart glasses because I look very smart in these. I want to remind you first of all, big thanks Steve Shapiro, great friend, great information. If you want to learn more about innovation and about driving that for the organization, look him up, bring him in, look at his books. It's fascinating information. I learned so much about this as well and from my guests. The Very Visible Business Podcast is sponsored by the Customer Experience Advantage Morning Huddle. Your next million dollar idea will likely come from your own team, but only if you create the space for challenging, powerful internal conversations. I think Steve would concur with that. You can learn how membership and the Customer Experience Advantage can give you the content, the questions and the tools to facilitate a weekly morning huddle with your team. You can learn more and watch sample video lessons by visiting the cxadvantage.com so be sure to like this podcast, hit the subscribe button and to see the video version of this interview and see the rugged the ruggedly handsome guest Steve Shapiro. You can do that on my website at Visibility Handsome. You want to learn more about my speaking and my consulting? You can find me there as well. Pick up a copy of my brand new book, why Customers Leave and How to Win Them Back. It's also an audiobook and Kindle and everything else. Very cool thing. Forbes just named this as one of the seven business books that entrepreneurs need to read. It's in hardback, Kindle, Audible, and everything else. Be sure to look at some of the other episodes. I've got great guests that I've been interviewing and more to come. Be sure to subscribe. Thanks. Thanks for listening.

For past and future episodes, be sure to subscribe@theveryvisiblebusiness.com youm can also learn more about David Averin's keynote speaking and consulting at visibility international.com Connect with us on social media and check out David Averen's latest book, Visibility Marketing at Amazon.com this has been the Very Visible Business podcast with David Averin SA.