Flashback: How to Craft a Viral Product, with Ivan Zhao of Notion

Welcome to Inc.'s The Founders Project with Alexa von Tobel. I'm Alexa, the founder of LearnBest, author of New York Times bestselling book Financially Fearless and second book Financially Forward. I'm also the founder and managing partner of Inspired Capital, a venture firm focused on the entrepreneurs of the future. Each week we sit down with a top founder to share their story of guts, inspiration, and drive. This week I am incredibly excited about my guest. Meet Ivan Zhao, co-founder and CEO of productivity startup Notion. In just 3 years, Notion has gained a cult following of users around the world. The company has an $800 million valuation, a user base of over a million, and a team of just 25 employees. Most importantly, Ivan's just a great guy, and I'm really excited to have him on the show today. Welcome, Ivan. How are you?

Thank you for having me today.

So I just want to start, first of all, you are just such a fun person to be able to get to know. I want to start with, in your own words, what is Notion? And tell us a little bit about not only what is Notion, but just tell us how you got here and what your path has been like.

Notion is an all-in-one productivity tool. You can use it for things like documents, note-taking, tasks, to-dos or wikis for your company, or create like whatever database you prefer to keep track of things you care about. We try to solve the problem that right now in our work life or personal life, there are just too many apps and all your information are spread across all those places. And we try to combine them into— it's just one tool, so it's less context switching for you and your team. And we try to make this one tool very flexible so you can customize to whatever your needs are, it almost feels like, you know, you're building your own software. So that's a quick summary of Notion.

What a good summary. And I promise I feel like you built a tool that you knew I needed. I'm a busy, hardworking entrepreneur. I run a venture fund and I have 3 little kids. And I swear the amount of context switching— I think Notion really speaks to that person who just cannot keep lists and documents and everything in all these different places. Where did the idea come from? Tell us your story. We know that you started about 3 years ago. At one point, you lived in Japan, in Kyoto. Now you're back in San Francisco. Walk us through just the last few years and give us all the detail.

It's actually more than 3 years. I've been working on this idea almost like 7 years. No, I said 1.0 was launched about 2 years ago, and before that, we Prototype a bunch of other things, so it's much longer than three years. So where do we start it? So Notion is a productivity software, but behind the scene, it's it's actually really about software in general. So if you really think about it, we use software every day. People use it to solve all kinds of problems we have, but most people can't really modify or create software, right? They are the domain expert that know their problem the most, but they have to use something off the shelf. It's kind of like there are only three sizes of t-shirt; you have to fit in one of them. Because of that, people have to duct tape together so many tools to solve their problem piecemeal. It's just not very humane. And that's the computing, the software angle is where it got me started. And I remember after I graduated from college, I'm wondering what should I do with my life? And I'm just tired of all the tools out there. Then I say, well, let's look at how the software industry started back in the '60s and '70s, like how those pioneers thought. about software. And if you look back into the computing history, back in the '60s and '70s, those pioneers were thinking software not like piecemeal applications, but more like a medium. It's like everybody can modify their own tools. And so our mission is very much about that romance of computing. If anybody can customize their own tools, the positive second-order effect on the world is It's huge. So to me, with the skill set of a designer and programmer, that's the most meaningful thing I think I can do with my life. So after graduating from school, I just want to start a company based on that idea. So that's where it started 6, 7 years ago now.

How long were you prototyping? How long were you really working on the idea before you opened it up to a single user?

Like I mentioned, 1.0 is 2, 3 years ago. It's actually the first few years, it's a lot of meandering. It's because if you really think about it, if this market space is we want to bring computing power, software creation power to everyone, that's a huge search space to create a product out of it. So the first couple years, first 3 years, I would say it was just like, what's the product we should build for people? And we tried a bunch of other things. We tried app builder, we tried the webpage builder. None of them really stick. So about, I'd say, 2, 3 years into that journey, we decided, okay, let's start with what people, everyday people already use their computer for, which are productivity tools, which are things like Microsoft Office, and let's build up from there, right? Build a better version of that, then try to hide the computing software toolmaking power into it. So, you know, it's like kind of our Trojan horse in a way.

I love it, and I specifically love the fact that you used the word humane, which is let's make things more humane for people, because I think as— and by the way, I should have started by saying I live by productivity tools, and I think one of the amazing things about life these days is we can fit more in because of technology. But that said, the context switching across 15 different apps. And I think the fact that you're trying to bring it all into one sense-making ecosystem is beautiful. And I'm really grateful, especially in all the ways that you can pull in content, pull in pages, note-take, cut notes. It is phenomenal. Talk us a little bit through your background. Where did you grow up? What did you study? Just for everybody out there. I mean, the fact that Notion at this point, you know, debuted with an $800 million valuation, a million users, Just for most entrepreneurs out there, it's not only incredible, but it is in a world of craziness, it is one of the crazier things that's really happened. We want to just learn a little bit more about you.

Right. The valuation is never the goal there. It's just something that's happened.

Of course. Of course.

Fundamentally, it's about building the product and business. I was born in China. My mom took me to Canada when I was in middle school. I'm Canadian still, so I'm on a visa. And I studied cognitive science, which I knew how to code when I was a kid, so I never tried to learn that in college. I'm interested in brain stuff, so I studied cognitive science. And I also did a lot of visual art, photography. And yeah, actually the reason what pushed me to do Notion is when I graduated college, most of my friends are artists. They need to build their websites. And I'm the only nerd in that social group. So I built a bunch of websites for them. It's like, I'm not going to build another website for you guys. I'm going to build a tool. Those are good talented people. They just don't have the tool to let them create this medium. Right. So I'm going to build a tool to let you create websites. And from building this website tool, look into the history of computing, which started this Notion idea we just talked about just now. And so I moved to San Francisco, wanted to start Notion. And about 7 years ago, I worked at a company called Inkling for a little bit, for about a year, then learning how to work with people. I never, as you know, I was in school before. And yeah, after that, I started Notion. So it's much more than 3 years, it's 7.

Yeah, no, one of the other things I really love about what you're saying here is you almost started Notion because you were just trying to help your friends and To your point, many really smart people out there just don't have access to engineers. And if you think about it, in the United States right now, we have roughly, roughly one engineer to the ten in China. And to your point, the volume of engineering talent that that we're going to need to be able to keep up with everything that people want to do—that's a bottleneck. And in many ways, it sounds like even in just the way you were describing Notion, you were trying to say, how do we help make it so that? Everybody doesn't have to have access to going and getting, you know, gobs of engineers to be able to build something simple.

Yeah. If you really think about like engineers, programmers today are kind of like the scribes of the past era, right? They know how to read, they know how to write, and they are the priests or scribes of the computing medium. And literacy hasn't happened yet. So if you want to create tools in this digital world, you have to ask your developer friends or use the off-the-shelf which does never quite fit your solution. The dream and romance is, can we create a tool that democratizes this medium a little bit? And yeah, so you don't have to learn how to program and spend 5 years, 3 years to learn how to program and make your own tool. You can just use a tool to make your own tool.

I love it and I really do appreciate the beauty that you bring to it. So when Notion finally went live, when it finally opened doors to customers and consumers, What was that like for you and what happened? Walk us through what the next few months looked like.

Maybe let's go back a little bit. So you were talking about Kyoto. So I think it's worthwhile to talk about that backstory a little bit. Yeah, please do. So, started a company 6, 5, 6 years ago. First couple of years meandered and trying to figure out what the product should be. The idea, the mission was there, but the product, we didn't know. And then we decided on building on a productivity angle, spent a year, but realized it's building on the wrong technical foundation. We have to restart the company. So at that time, the company was 4 or 5 people. And if we do it with 4 or 5 people, most likely we're going to run out of runway before we can do it. So me and my co-founder just laid off everyone. And since morale is really low, so let's go to somewhere slightly cheaper than San Francisco and more interesting just to rebuild the whole product, rewrite the whole product, 2 of us. And so we moved to Kyoto. It's quite a bit cheaper than San Francisco. If we sublease our apartments, actually make a profit.

That's amazing. I'm just smiling because he's like, and you know, Yeah.

At least it's break-even with apartment now and all that stuff, right? SF's expensive.

So expensive.

I moved to Kyoto for several months and just rewrite the whole thing and travel a little bit more too. So it took us about a year to rewrite the whole thing in a new technology stack. And then we launched on Product Hunt. And that was like 3 years ago. That's the proper 1.0 launch. At that time, we were Our bank was negative. I was borrowing money from my mom. And, but we're pretty confident that this is something that people want. It's like, it's a good product if we're just honest with ourselves. So we launched it and it was one of the most popular launch of that year. And after that, a lot more investors just followed up. Then everything else become a lot easier after that.

It is nice when you have a great product and product-market fit that things do get easier.

Yeah.

Talk us through a little bit about, and we'll get to the financing in a second, but talk us through a little bit about those early days as consumers were using it. What did you see? What did you watch? What got you excited? And I can tell that, you know, to your point, you grew up coding. So it, I think almost it's the visual design, it's the simplicity. You know, for those of you who haven't used Notion, go check it out. It's, what's beautiful about it for me is it's, It is so simple. It is intuitive. It's easy to use. Talk to me a little bit about those early days. What let you know it was working outside of just more customers coming? Like, what feedback were you getting that really gave you the confidence that this is the right product?

Well, we always know that it's something that people want in a way that because the previous incarnation of product has existed for a long time. Right. Notion is a document tool, it's a productivity tool. It's like Microsoft Word at Office. It's been around for decades. If you trace back to the '80s, Lotus 1-2-3, that's even older. Trace back into way back, typewriter file cabinets. They're all just information tools that help people think better and solve problems better. And so the tricky thing is never about, are we building the thing that people want? It's, can we pull it off technically? And build a better version in 2010s, 2020s, you know, and, and the benchmark is really high, like Google Docs is free, and it's kind of good enough. So it took us several years just to build out the first version that's even remotely comparable to Google Docs or something like Evernote. So it's just a better version of the same car. But the idea of Notion is never new.

I appreciate that. So tell us a little bit about the financing. What made you decide to raise money? How did that go? And keep in mind, everybody listening, It is people who have either never ever fundraised, or they're just starting to fundraise, or they've raised many rounds of funding, so they would really get it. Give us a little bit more of the contours of how the fundraising went.

So, it's actually not intentional in the way that we try to raise money, because the business is profitable already and growing very healthily. It's— we have a lot of old convertible notes we need to clean up. We actually don't have specific— this is my first company. And we actually don't have any specific philosophy or principle around fundraising. I think being profitable definitely gives you more leverage. We're not definitely, definitely, definitely not anti-investors. We cannot be built without the help of investors. And, um, you know, at the end of the day, we're just trying to build a good product with a sound business model and create value for the world. If we create value for the world, it means Notion is valuable, which means Good return on investment for investors, that means easy fundraising. So, you know, focus on building the thing.

One thing I love about this, Ivan, is it's so clear to me that you really understand how important it is in a sea of a lot of hype and a lot of just noise. You're kind of— it's very clear to you to stay true to the fundamentals. And it's interesting to me just how natural that is for you, given that this is really your first business. Talk us through a little bit, just for those who maybe have not used Notion, how does Notion make money? How do you charge customers? What does that look like?

We are a subscription-based business. So it's kind of like imagine Google Docs, Evernote, Trello all put together in a product. Then if you like it, you pay for it. Yeah, it's nothing too fancy there. And our customer base range from students to megachurches somewhere to, you know, company large and small and startups. Actually, we just yesterday, I think, we just launched a startup program. So make Notion give a $1,000 credit for all the startup incubators. And so kickstart Notion in the startup community. And last month we just made Notion completely free for students and educators. So we want Notion to be used everywhere, just like Microsoft Office. Everybody can use for something. And we I think in order for a tool like Notion to be useful, ubiquity is very important. So yeah, we will just try to get more people to use for every other kind of things.

I absolutely love that. And I love that for educators, you made it free. What drove you to that decision outside of the obvious one, which is you want more people to use it and you want to do good in the world? What made you make that decision?

On the finance part, it doesn't take much off the— it's the company that pays. So we shouldn't charge students who can't even pay their tuitions. And fundamentally, we're not going after revenue at this stage of company. It's very much just get more people to use it. So market share is what we care about. So that makes that decision very easy.

Awesome. I want to quickly transition to a little bit about customer acquisition. So publicly, we know you've surpassed a million users. Where are they coming from? Is there any secret sauce? Is it mainly word of mouth? What have you learned about customer growth?

It's for 99-point-some percent word of mouth at the moment. So we're still learning how to do proper distribution through marketing and sales. We're like baby stage there. We definitely need to work on those things. At the moment, it's very much about building a good product and people tell other people. The product is collaborative, so multiple people can work on the same documents, same page at the same time, that helps with the growth as well. So yeah, there's not much lesson I can share at the moment since I'm still learning how to do distribution.

Got it. I love it. So your team is 25 people. I think one of the things as a fellow entrepreneur that I really love about your story is, you know, it's not that dissimilar to Kevin Systrom, who had built Instagram, and there were, you know, 11 of them, you know, when they got acquired. You're at the point where You know, you've hit some incredible milestones with very few people. How do you think about your team? How do you think about building your team and kind of what's core to your philosophy on talent?

Yeah, we're actually more than 25, but still less than 30 people. It's not very intentionally we try to keep it small. It sort of just happened because since initially my co-founder and I can do a lot, so we build a first version ourselves. And, you know, like our view on that is, Building software is kind of like making art. A picture by Monet is done by one person. Adding another Monet to that equation might not help that much because they have to debate where to put the brush, where the color is. So it's very much a sublinear system. More people doesn't mean more productivity, and a small product team can do a lot in this case. But going back to the distribution side, that's a lot more like a linear system, more people on the marketing and sales will help you grow more. So we're trying to hire more people there and find them. Just like we have a really good product team, we're trying to hire the same caliber people on the marketing and sales side at the moment.

Right now, you built everything that you've built with just 25 people, and as you said, slightly more, maybe 27, 28. As you think about your playbook for hiring and who you add to the team, how do you think about that?

I think that we're lucky in a way that we tap into an interesting community of people. You know, like the history of personal computing traced back to the Bay Area in the '60s and '70s, and one of the very community was started by this guy Douglas Engelbart. He set up research lab near Stanford. Later on, a lot of his people moved to Xerox PARC. That's where Steve Jobs copied the original Macintosh interface and all that. And a lot of PARC people star company like Adobe, and they are the first generations. And the interesting thing here is that lineage still exists today. It's very small, but still there. And those people, they, they're passionate about building better tools for thought, better software for everyday people's problem solving. And many of them are extremely talented, and we attract quite a few of those candidates from that. lineage community. So yeah, we're kind of lucky in that regard. And, um, and also I want Notion to be a worthy modern bearer of that lineage for people who care about building humane softwares.

And again, I love just how thoughtful you're being. I imagine that Notion's hiring. So where do people send their resumes if they want to come work for you guys?

Uh, it's notion.so/jobs and there will be all the details you need. You can see the picture of, uh, What the office looks like. And, you know, like we pay a lot of attention to our office. I care a lot about furniture myself. So yeah, you can see the pictures there.

And with that, we'll be right back after this. So I want to ask, just today in the last now handful of years, What was the most exciting thing that's happened at Notion where you walked home and you said, wow, I can't believe that happened? What's so clear to me just getting to meet you is that you're incredibly thoughtful. You are incredibly deliberate. What has been a moment where you were like, wow, that is so exciting?

Yeah, so I built the prototype version of Notion in a coffee shop next to my house. At least I spent more time in that coffee shop than in my living room.

That's awesome.

And, um, yeah, I remember after we launched 1.0, after a while, and I went to the coffee shop and saw someone using the product in the very same coffee shop I built a prototype. And I remember that day, it's just like, wow, that feeling is really good, you know. Instead of that person using Word or Google Doc or some other products, he uses Notion. And hopefully we brings more value, be more useful to that person. You know, it's that, that's a great feeling for me. And I will always remember that feeling. Even every day I go to coffee shops, see other people use Notion, still feel it's special to me, you know.

That warms my heart, that makes me so happy. So I wanna shift gears a little bit to you as an entrepreneur. As you think through the next 5, 10 years of Notion, what's your vision for it? You know, where do you think this can go? Slash, what is the narrative in your own head about the next 5 to 10 years? 10 years, what do you want to accomplish?

So we talk about more on the mission romance side of let people build their own tools and use the perfect software for their problem. And maybe I can talk a bit more on the business side of things. So in ecology or human history, most systems are cyclical. Market to me is very much like that, come in cycles. So what is the cycles of the software market we're in and what can we do as Notion as a company in this cycle? So if you think about like software coming to workspace in the early '80s, there are a lot of them. Then there's a cooling down period with the Microsoft monopoly of the '90s. Then there's another explosion with internet in the 2000s, and which allows so many SaaS companies to flourish like today. Right. And when you have too many of one thing, it's there's value to create some of the opposite things. And I think the value and that opportunity and the window for us to put the mission into the world is there are just too many apps out there. And if we can solve this too many apps problem by building one that can be one product and do the job of many and be as flexible as if the user is a programmer, I think that's the window of opportunity we can push our mission into the world. And that we try to Now, lose that window.

Yeah, and I will just say I really appreciate that. And, you know, as the world is exploding and as there's more entrepreneurs getting back who are building good things, just the number of digital platforms that we're all beginning to touch is beginning to overwhelm us. You know, do you feel like the digital world has kind of proliferated so much that we're now at the point where it's got to come back to simplicity?

I don't know. I don't have an opinion on that. I do know that computing as a medium, software or internet as a medium, in the early days, those pioneers were thinking as more on the creativity side of things. People can build their own thing. People can use it to learn, to simulate, to educate. It's kind of today very much on this kind of attention entertainment side of things like Instagram. Facebook, Netflix side of things. Are we going to have this whole movement with software or computing? I'm not too sure, but hopefully we can do something about it as a company, as Notion, at least on the productivity side.

So I want to quickly fast forward. As somebody who's in the intersection of building a great productivity platform that can run and span from your personal life to your workplace life, how do you think about the future of work? And I know this is a broad question, but I just want to get a sense of When you fast forward a decade, what do you think work looks like here? And I'll just say specifically in America, since you're here, I love that you're here on a visa and bringing just such incredible innovation to our country. I'm so joyful to hear that. I want to ask, what do you think the future of work looks like?

I think there are 2 directions we can look at this. Tools we're using getting smarter and smarter. That's the narration of AI. Eventually they become self-aware, they can do the work we do. So AI is one end of the spectrum. The other end is academic. They call this domain HCI, human-computer interaction. It's how humans interact with tools, how tools can amplify us, augment us, make us smarter and more collaborative. And both things could happen. Notion's very much on the HCI side of things. Can we build a better tool that makes us better? Which has been around since the '60s, '70s, like I talked about. And are we going to go to a degree that everybody can build their own tool to model their own problem, model their own business before AI replaces a lot of us? I'm not too sure, but there's the 2 views I sort of see the narration plays out for the next while.

So Ivan, as somebody who is an incredible engineer who Clearly has built a product that, that works. What would you say to an entrepreneur who could come up to you and say, hey, Ivan, what do I need to know about product development? What are your rules? Is there a playbook? Is there something in your head that are principles that you live by that you would want to teach a fellow entrepreneur?

I wouldn't say I have or we have any specific product or design philosophies. It's— the Notion is very much built by intuition. And we just want to create something useful to a lot of people. I think looking into history definitely helps. You know, it's like I have this book that I always keep in my bedroom. It's published by Phaidon. It's called 999 Design Classics, and it has all the chairs, cars, toasters, you know, the product that has endured the test of time. And sometimes I wonder, like, what makes a software product timeless? You know, to me, like, in order to be timeless, it has to be used every time. It has to have this long-term healthy symbiosis with its users, you know, you have to solve problems. So if you look at Notion, it's kind of plain, it's kind of minimal, and there's not much innovation on the surface. And for us, the key is not to innovate, it's very much just to solve people's problems and get out of the way. So fundamentally, it's about solving problems, it's not a statement.

I love that. First of all, I'm gonna immediately buy the book. I love that.

It's really heavy, it's really big. I think it's auto-printed. No, you have to find out.

I was gonna say, I actually know exactly what book you're talking about.

Okay, yellow color one, right?

It's huge. So I wanna quickly go back to you. So you mentioned it, you know, this is the first time you're doing this. This is the first time that you are holding the reins of a company. As you think about just, you know, your own playbook, you know, your own operating system, when do you sleep? Do you exercise? Give us just a quick sense of your own productivity tips.

So exercising, reading, all those things are important. You have to do it. I think a lot more that I realized in the past 5, 6 years building the company, it's a lot more actually about myself. It's to be more— understand my tendencies. To give you one example, I have a pretty intense personality. In real life. And I think I got that from my mom. It's kind of like a fire.

I just want everybody to know he hides it really well because he could not be friendlier or more warm and welcoming. But I hear you. Okay, keep going.

Yeah, so that intensity is kind of like a fire in the way that it can inspire people and light a path forward. But, you know, fire can also burn people if not careful. So I'm slowly learning to be more mindful of myself, to be mindful of how I can best use this fire. So yeah, it's so much learning about my personal tendency, communication skill, management skill. They're also in that bucket.

Tell us a bit more, how are you learning that? Because, and I'll share a story, you know, in my own path, I hired an executive coach when I started LearnVest. I was Literally 23 years old when I dropped out of Harvard Business School. I was 20, just about 24, 25, and by the time we had hundreds of employees, I was 31. And I remember bringing on an executive coach because I just intuitively knew that I needed to stay ahead of the curve, but also I wasn't quite sure exactly what I needed to get better at. And I knew that the thing was, to your point, those tendencies, picking up on your own patterns, When you got a bit too tired, what happened? When you had a rough day or didn't have the stamina to keep up with all of the different challenges you had to tackle, how are you getting those insights? Who's passing those up to you right now?

There's no one answer for that. Like, I started working with a coach recently, started doing therapists, all that kind of thing that helped me better at communication and be more self-aware. I think if there's one meta one, it's just to, you know, getting feedback from anywhere you can get, you know, feedback from coworkers, feedback from coaching, feedback from, you know, friends. Just be honest with yourself and get better. That self-reinforcing loop is important. It's probably the most powerful loop for myself.

I mean, I think feedback is such a gift, and I feel like the more that you get comfortable getting really real feedback, not like, oh, Ivan, you're amazing, but the like, hey, here's something that, Could be really helpful to lean into. And I often feel like not enough people give that real feedback. And so I so appreciate that you think that. So just last few questions here. When it's a Sunday night and you're really excited about the week that's ahead of you at Notion, what's happening in your calendar or what's going on that gets you out of bed?

Everything is exciting. You know, it's like, I think I'm lucky that My work life, it's— I found the love of my work life fairly early, and I can't imagine doing anything else but building this. Yeah, I'm just very grateful about it. Everything exciting here.

Ah, that makes me so happy. The smile on your face is so amazing. It's so real. So as you think about one thing that you want to get better at professionally or personally, what's one thing that you're working on constantly getting better at?

It's definitely the communication management skill. You know, it's like it's my first company and learning how to lead, to me, it's, it's a craft. It's just like coding or design or business strategies. You have to read it, you have to learn, you have to practice. And then I'm still at the baby stage of learning how to crawl. So—

Awesome. So if you wanted to tell us about one company that's not Notion that you have learned about that you want to pay it forward to an entrepreneur of the future, That you really like? Is there a company that's on your radar that you think everybody should know about?

Tech company or anything? Any company, anything. I actually really got into this fashion label called Lemaire in Paris. And I think they've been around for a long time, but they got popular in the last few years. And it's just kind of interesting in the way that it's an independent-owned label rather than being part of a house. And they're sort of anti this kind of fast fashion trend of They're just making basic things, good quality. And so like anti-Zara, H&M, and everything's very basic, but with a little bit touch of quirkiness, you know, it's kind of— I really enjoy that and makes me want to live in Paris.

I love that. Just really quickly, what other apps are you using that you love that are not Notion of any kind?

I use— I still do quite a bit design, and Figma is definitely a good one. I think the quality is the best product in that category, and, you know, it could be the next Adobe.

Big fan of Figma. I totally agree. So Ivan, if you get to do one thing for fun that is not working at Notion, because I can tell your favorite thing to do is work and build at Notion, if you're doing one thing for fun outside of work, what is it?

I think it's 2 things, watching basketball and maybe reading in the bathtub. Those are 2 things I really like to do.

Those are really good things. That is awesome. Okay, so just final quickfire round here. Ready? What's your favorite interview question? If you're thinking about adding somebody to the Notion team and you just really want to ask, you get to ask one question, what would that question be?

Changes based on my mood, but I usually ask what makes someone happy.

Yeah, that's amazing. That is one of my favorite interview questions too, um, because they tell you exactly what makes them happy.

Yeah, like what's your happy code base for engineer? Like what's your happy design things? You know, it's like, yeah, what drives people?

Okay, last question for you. Ready, Ivan? What makes you happy?

Working on Notion makes me happy.

Ah, it is so true and it is so genuine. First of all, Ivan, thank you so much for joining us It has been such a pleasure to have you on the show, guys. If you haven't already downloaded Notion, go check it out. Uh, download it or check it out at notion.so. Join us for next week, INX: The Founders Project with Alexa von Tobel. And thanks, Ivan.

Thank you. Yeah.

Thank you all for listening. You can subscribe to INX: The Founders Project with Alexa von Tobel wherever your podcasts are offered.