#166: Creating Better Nutrition and Flavor featuring James Barry

Foreign.

Welcome to the Meat Mafia podcast. We are so excited to have you.

It's so mutual, guys. Thank you for having me.

Oh, we're. We're so pumped, man. We were saying. So you are the founder of Pluck Seasoning, which is one of our favorite products. It's an organ based seasoning. And I'm not going to steal your thunder, but what I will tell you is we first tried your product Super Bowl Sunday of February of 2022. We had never heard of you guys before. And one of our buddies, Rob, who's big in the biohacking space, said, got to try this new seasoning. They've somehow embedded organs into it, but it tastes incredible. And so he seasoned our steaks with the Pluck seasoning and we just looked at each other and we're like, this is some of the best seasoning I've ever had. I didn't know organs could actually taste this good. And that was like a gen. That was a genuine reaction. We're not just saying that because we're having you on the show, but, you know, so pumped to have you on. And I know that you have a really interesting background. As you know, you were a professional chef. You started plucking. I think we'd love to just learn more about your background and just learn about your whole story. That'd be great.

Absolutely. Yeah. I. I was one of those guys that was passionate about cooking, but a very picky eater. I did not grow up eating organs. I didn't. I grew up. I always joke I grew up eating a 50 diet. Even though I was born in the 70s. It's like. And I think a lot of people born at that time understand what I'm talking about. It was like frozen food, vegetables. It was like meat and like baked potato with the starch took up a lot of the plate, of course, you know, but you just kind of had those three sections and food was pretty bland. And there wasn't really a lot of the knowledge we now have around food and the power of food, really. I mean, it was so basic, you know, white bread basic. And that's what I came out of. My mother was not a chef. The way we knew dinner was ready is the smoke detector went off. I'm completely being honest about that too. It's for real. And. And yet I. There's. There was something about food that I was really intrigued about. And I started taking a culinary class in junior high school in, like, seventh grade, I think, and I loved it. And it was like my favorite class. I I think for me, and I only later, I really only learned to articulate it this way just recently. But I think what food was for me now looking back is it was a way of expression. Like it was a way for me to kind of say how I felt for somebody. And so I loved cooking for my parents. I loved cooking for girlfriends at the time. I mean, I just, I just loved like expressing how I felt for people through food. But I didn't see it as a career. That wasn't until like my 30s where I was like, I actually should do this. Like, it was kind of after 911 where I was like, life feels a little different. You know, that was, that was our generation's Pearl harbor in a sense. And it just felt a little different. And I was like, you know, I really want everything I do in my life to have heart. I don't want to do anything that's just kind of passing the time. And I reevaluated my life and I was like, you know, okay, I was, I was in the entertainment business and I did love that, but I was also substitute and I was like, you know, I'm. That's really passing the time. Like, that's not what I love. And so I was like, well, what did I love? And I kind of looked back at my childhood and I'm like, I love cooking. I loved it. So I decided to go to a culinary school and I went to a school in New York that focused on healthy food. Not just learning how to cook, but really talked about different diets, different paradigms sprouting food versus just, you know, eating it straight. Talked about it, even taught vegan, vegetarian stuff. I mean, I talked about. It was very, it was, it was kind of very wide open, very different from most other culinary schools. And I, I loved it. And I learned about organ meats at that school, I learned about Weston A. Price there, but I still didn't eat that way. It was, still took me longer to finally realize, you know what, as I went through my career and I was a private chef for a lot of celebrities, including like Tom Cruise, of course, everyone knows, and bunch of other people, George Clooney, Gerard Butler. And I had an amazing career in that sense, but I was never fully settled. I just kind of kept feeling like, no, I'm here to help more people. There's, there's got to be a way to serve more people and do it in a way where I can get these nutrient dense foods more easily and deliciously into their diets so that they eat them because that's the one thing I was really learning through my career is that, you know, we can talk health all we want. You know, it doesn't even matter. Like, I can tell I can buy you the best food. Like, there's two kind of things. I can talk the best foods in the world, and then I can buy the best foods in the world. But if a. If you're not. Your body isn't digesting properly, is not in a healthy state, and you're not actually absorbing and simulating those vitamins and minerals, it doesn't matter what I feed you. But the other thing is, is that we can talk all we want, but if you don't apply it to your life, then it. Then it doesn't matter. So health is only as good as we do it. Right? You know, it's like that. It's a decide and do kind of concept. And so my whole career I kept looking at, well, what are the foods that we gravitate towards? And it's. It's. It's comfort foods to a degree. It really is, when you think about it, it's certain textures, it's certain flavors. And I was like, okay, how can I take those comfort foods that are really not healthy and make them healthier? And so I. That's so much of how my mindset, my. My friend of mine was in this career. And that's where it then came to with organ meats, because I was like, okay, organ meats are hands down the most nutrient dense food on the planet. You cannot argue that. And if you are arguing it, then I. Then look it up. You don't have to trust me. Do any search and it will show you that, like, beef liver is usually the one that they'll measure, and it's hands down the most nutrient dense food on the planet. But we're not eating it. So that's where I was like, how can I fix this? How can I. How can I hit these pain points? The pain point of people thinking it's icky. The pain point of people not knowing how to cook it, and the pain point of people not knowing where to source it. And that's where pluck. That's how I came to pluck.

Let's take a minute to talk about some of the sponsors and brands who support the show.

What are you thinking?

I was thinking about Carnivore Bar. What are your thoughts on Carnivore Bar?

I mean, it's unbelievable. It's an unbelievable product. We were lucky enough to have the founder, Philip Meese, on the show a few months ago and he was able to send us a bunch of product when we started the relationship and absolutely loved it. I mean, you know, it's minimum ingredient product, beef tallow salt and then they do have a honey flavored option as well. But it's so nice to have a bar that's like three to four ingredients. And like when you're following a carnivore diet, it's really tough to find products that are in line with, with that specific diet, you know?

Yeah. For me it kind of hits like the holy trinity of what you're looking for when you're looking for food. So it's nutrient dense, it's convenient and it tastes great. And as you said, most people who are trying to eat healthy, the convenience factor is kind of a tough part. So just being able to have something you can grab on the go know that you're going to have that nutrition for the day, it's huge.

Yeah. And we were lucky enough we got to actually see their factory too in Missouri and they're just doing things the right way. I love how they offer an option for like carnivore purists where it's just beef tallow salt. And then they also have an animal based option too. If you do want a little bit of sweetness, a little bit of variety, they have a honey in that option. And they're just people that are doing things the right way. They're very mission focused. They're carnivores themselves. And you know, we're always on the go, we're traveling. We've taken a bunch of flights together. To have a bar that has 30 grams of fat too. Like that's huge from an energy density standpoint, right?

Yeah. He checks all the boxes or the company checks all the boxes. And I, I just think the fact that they're sourcing from a regenerative farm as well. And Joyce farms just a win, win a hundred percent.

So carnivore bar. So we got the affiliate link and then it's code mafia for 10% off.

And then another one of our sponsors, one of our favorite farms, Holy Cow. What they're doing at Holy Cow is pretty remarkable. The relationships that they've built in the industry and how long they've been doing the grass fed, grass finished regenerative model is really innovative. They were one of the first people to be doing that and supplying whole foods early on. Just a great community farm. And also just the product is something that speaks for itself.

Yeah. I think number one to Your point, Harry? They're just incredible people. We got to hear them speak at the Beef Initiative conference in Colorado. We never met them before, but just hearing Warren's story where they were following a standard American diet, he had had a heart attack, and they were just looking for answers of like, how can we actually get healthier? Do I need to be dependent on medication? And they started changing their diets to incorporating more animal foods. And he completely reversed those symptoms of his stroke. And now they're just doing things the right way.

They're.

They're grass finishing their beef. They're incorporating incredible practices. They have great relationships with the animals and they're very passionate about just like connecting directly with the customer and also educating their customer on grass finished beef.

Yeah.

And I think the best part is too, they're shipping naturally and trying to reach a bigger audience. So being able to not only supply beef nationally, but also educate people on the quality of good, clean whole foods is just, it's an incredible mission.

How much do you love their beef bacon, by the way? I know that's your go to.

It's one of the best things I ever tasted.

It's that good?

No. Honest to God, it's so good.

Holy cow.

Yeah. One of the other farms that supports us is Perennial Pastures, another regenerative farm out of San Diego. Our experience with Kevin Muno, the owner, we had him on the show, a young first generation rancher who's really empowered by this movement of regenerative agriculture and really wants to be a leader in the space. I think our conversation with him was so insightful just in terms of how mission focused he is and how he really thinks about his farm as a business and wanting it to be here 50, 100 years down the road, even though he's just the first generation of it. And I think just being able to spend time with him out in San Diego was kind of the perfect indication of that. Where we got to go have a meal with him at his house, hang out with his wife and kids. Like, what an amazing person. And I think his mission focus around raising really high quality beef and restoring nutrients to the soil is just one of, one of those rare missions that I think everyone can get around.

Yeah.

He has such a commitment to really feeding the local community in San Diego, in the San Diego county, first and foremost. But he's also passionate about feeding the community around the country. So I know they've invested a lot of time, a lot of money, a lot of resources to being able to order beef in bulk on their website. So I know that they now offer quarter, half, whole cows directly, directly off the website. They have that great ancestral blend ground beef product. So it actually has organ grinds mixed into the ground beef. So you're getting the benefits of like an ounce or so of organ meat, but because it's in the ground beef, you really can't taste it at all. And I think to your point, Harry, just an another amazing person. You know, he, Kev was someone that he was following a paleo diet in college and started realizing, wow, when I nourish my body with real foods, I feel amazing. Had a really successful stint in tech, but realized that there was just something else that he was passionate about. So he's one of those rare cases where know he put his money where his mouth is and he's a first generation farmer, just you know, bootstrapping this thing, raising money and just so passionate about feeding the community. Just an amazing guy.

Yeah, absolutely.

What are your thoughts on organ supplements and what do you think about the company that supports our podcast, Optimal Carnivore?

Such a good question, man. I think organ meat is something that's gained a ton of notoriety the last few years and for good reason. I don't want to speak for you, but I think both of us have had a ton of benefits just incorporating organ meats into our diet. I would say that, you know, we definitely prefer the raw source of organs where we'll just, you know, chop up some liver and some heart and you know, there are different ways to prepare it. I think the raw source is the most nutrient dense. But you know, we're fortunate that there are companies like Optimal Carnivore that exist that freeze dry organ capsules so you can actually take them on the go. You know, there, there are a ton of times where we're traveling where we're not going to have to to raw organs. So we can just, I can throw a little Ziploc bag together of, of Optimal Carnivore and be good to go. And I think six pills is an ounce of organs, which is like the daily recommended amount that will give you a lot of those really good quality vitamins in there. So that's kind of how I think we've been using it. What am I, did I miss anything there?

No, I, I think the, the fact that it just makes organs accessible to people and I think that organs are generally just a food group that are underutilized when it comes to eating nose to tail and nature's vitamin is a perfect name for these organ Foods. And I think a lot of people are pretty, you know, in the mainstream, object to eating organ meats, but when you put it in a pill form that doesn't taste bad, it's convenient, you can put it in your backpack. It makes things a lot easier.

And I also think that just generally.

These brands are optimal. Carnivore is focused on making people healthier, which is just such a strong mission. And, you know, I think Liver capsules is a great way to get people thinking about their health differently, 100%.

There's. There's probably someone that's listening to this right now, and you're interested in organ meats, but the taste might make you a bit squeamish. You feel strange about eating raw foods. Maybe you cook liver and you don't like it. Maybe it has a metallic taste. I think that's also where the organ capsules play such. Such a great role, is that you're still getting that nutrient density, but you're getting it in a very convenient capsule like format. And it just takes away any of that squeamishness that you might have to the taste. It's, you know, it's just a great product. And also, Richard, who runs Optimal Carnivore, you know, he's. He's started listening to the show really early on, and he's built his own organ supply chain and is just doing things the right way and really trying to support the right people in the space. So just proud to be associated with them, honestly.

Yeah, absolutely.

Thanks for listening.

Now we're gonna go back to the show.

Your perspective is so cool, because I. I feel like speaking to most chefs.

They don't approach the nutrition topic as.

Closely as it seems like you are. And I'm wondering, was there a moment in time? It sounded like school might've been the moment in time where you started to develop that understanding around nutrition. But do you remember, like, a specific turning point for you where it was like, hey, this is actually really important, like, what I put on the plate actually matters because it's not just a taste thing. It's actually fueling these people to be healthier and live better lives.

It was kind of a combination of before school and then connecting the dots once I went to school. So before I went to school, I was really diving deep in my mid-20s, like, kind of early to mid-20s. I was really diving deep into just health. I was like, well, what is health? And I was doing lots of detoxes. I was trying things, you know, see, well, how does my Body respond to this. And what happens? I remember I did this one detox where it was, like, started out really specific foods, then went to juicing, and then you. You fasted for a day, and then you came out. And I remember my skin smelling really metallic as I went through it, because I was clearly detoxing the heavy metals in my body. And. And even before that, I think I was experimenting with vegan vegetarianism. I was eating a lot of tofu, things like that, and soy, and. And then I went to just chicken. I mean, I was kind of all over the place. But what's so fascinating is while I was doing all that, I was. I was really taking in. I lived a life where I could actually process how it felt in my body. So, for example, when I was doing this soy, I noticed my sex drive completely tanked. And I was. But I didn't know why at the time. I just noticed, like, I was living with my girlfriend, the diamond, and just tanked. And I remember her and I having kind of almost arguments where she's like, why aren't you coming on to me? Like, why aren't you, like, engaged? I'm like, I don't know. And I was genuinely. I was so sincere. I was like, I don't understand it. I don't know why something is going on. I don't get it. I thought I was just depressed and then skip forward, like, three or four years. And now I'm in culinary school, and they're talking about it. They're talking about how, oh, the estrogen and soy can affect your hormones. And I'm like, oh, and like, you know, connecting the dots. So it was kind of like a process, process of exploration and then just learning, you know, as I gain more knowledge.

It's so interesting to me that your culinary school was actually teaching you about Weston A. Price and nutrition and the science behind all that, because, you know, I've heard that there are some culinary schools where they're just telling you, hey, you should be cooking with these industrial seed oils because it gets you a better smoke point or a better crust on your steak. But it sounds like the school that you went to, they were actually trying to teach you about nutrition and animal fats and nourishing your body the right way. It's so interesting.

Yeah, I. I agree. And I. I mean, I did a lot of research. Sadly, the program doesn't really exist as it did when I went there anymore. Now it's. I think it's folded into some other school, and I think they're much more vegan vegetarian now. I'm not positive on that. The school I went to, in case anyone listening is just curious, it was called the natural Gourmet Institute at the time. I don't know what it's called now, but I. Yeah. What's fascinating and well, what really fit for me with this school, which. This is why I didn't go to the kind of more traditional culinary schools, is I personally didn't care about that stuff. Like, I don't. I don't care if the meat is marbled. Like, I don't. I care more about what was the cow fed.

Yeah, right.

You know what I'm saying? Like. Like, what were the conditions of the cow, you know, of its life? Was it humanely treated? Was it fed grass 100 or what was it pumped with or not pumped with? Like, that's the kind of stuff I want to. Want to understand. And it was so interesting because when I. When I was first private chefing and in that. Entering that world, I remember I was. I was doing something called. What is it called? Food set. I'm forgetting the term right now. Like, but it's like where you're on a show, so it's like where you're doing the food for the show. So I remember I was working with this person who is on the Ellen DeGeneres Show. And so. So whenever there was someone, Whenever there was food on that show, she and I would come in and we would do the food. So if. Even if it was like a famous chef, what, what you would do is you would come in and we would do three stages of food. We would do it before it was cooked, get it all prepped for him. Then we would do it in between, and then we'd have a finish shot. So then that way when they cut away, you come back and you see the food's all done. That was us. We. We did all of it. Yeah. And it was so fascinating because he. And I don't even remember his name now, but he was. He was a. A popular chef at the time. And he was coming out with a healthy products in the grocery stores and stuff like that. And I remember, like, how he talked about health, and I'm like, dude. I was like, I was literally sitting off in the aisles. I was like, this guy doesn't have a fucking clue about what health is. Like, he's talking about things that are bullshit. It's just this illusion of health. And. And I really. That's the kind of term that I used to say a lot As I was, you know, in my 17 years in this business is. I'm like, this is a trend. Like, they're not actually talking what's really healthy, what's sustainable, what's gonna. What's whole food base, what's actually going to make that food more bioavailable. They're not talking about that. They're talking about, is it, you know, white meat or is it thigh? Is it grilled? Or is it that? It's like, that's such. It's like, who cares? Like, honestly, you guys are gonna. I don't know what you guys will think about this, but you want to know the. The most amazing diet I've ever followed, and I've tried so many because I use myself as a guinea pig. So I understand them. When you're a private chef, you really have to understand the trends because you're. A lot of times your clients are asking for them. So you have to be able to not only understand them, but be able to cook successfully with them. So I used to do all of it. I mean, from Master Cleanse to Fat Flush to. To what was Atkins? So, you know, everything under the sun. And I did Primal raw for 30 days. So. So for those that don't know, Primal Raw is. Is animal based, you know, or, you know, animal meats, anything from an animal. But it's all raw. So that's raw dairy all the way to raw meat. Right. It can also be, of course, sushi, you know, raw. Raw fish. And I gotta tell you, that was the best diet I have ever done. I felt amazing. You don't eat as much. You don't need as much. I glowed, man. I mean, I literally. I felt like. I felt like a superhero. I felt so strong, so good, so viral. But here's the thing. It wasn't realistic. Like, if you're eating Primal Raw, you can't go to a party, you can't go out to eat. You know what I'm saying? So, like, while it was an amazing diet, and I can acknowledge that that is something that is probably really good for all of us, it's not realistic. And that's what I care. That kind of goes back to why pluck, for me, is really important. Because it's like, we can talk all we want to, we're blue in the face about what's right, what's healthy, but if it's not practical, if we can't actually incorporate it into our lives and sustain it, what's the point?

We talked a little bit about this before the Show. But one of our big core pillars of what we like to talk about is just delineating between real foods and kind of all the processed foods that have become so popular over the past several decades. And it's amazing what, if you just commit to that real foods diet, as opposed to just, you know, picking up what can get marketed to you, it can really have like, an amazing effect on your health. But to your point, like, it's all a spectrum. Like, it's what, what you can sustain over a long period of time that actually matters. And these things are like, that was going to be. My question to you is like, do you think you could have gone longer on the primal diet? But it sounds like it's more of a lifestyle thing as opposed to, like the dietary factors of it.

I. Well, once you get over the psychological hoop, you know, because there's part of you when you're first eating, you know, raw meat, you're, you know, there's part of you that's been brought up like, oh, raw meat got diseases and it's going to hurt you. But if you, if you, if you're buying it from healthy animals, it's fine. You can also freeze it for 14 days before you eat it. There's. There's so many things you can do. But we had a young child, we had our first child at the time, and that's when it became like, okay, every meal we're making, we're having to do different for her. And that's where it was like, this is not sustainable. Like, because, because you don't want to give a young child who's still developing their immune system. You don't want to give them anything that could throw it off. And that's why I personally would not give a child who's just starting to eat raw, you know, give them raw primal, just because they, they're still building their defenses. If there is anything, any pathogens, you know. But it just, it just. Yeah, we started to feel like someone had invited us to some stuff and we just started to feel like, ah, you know, this is going to be a real. It's gonna cross over where it's now more work than it is kind of worth it, I think. I think that's what you ultimately gauge with anything. Any choice you make in life is like, when does it become too much work and less. Not enough pleasure? And that, you know. You know, that kind of actually brings me to, you know, something I've learned. If I were to, bottom line, what is like, the qualities you need in food to ensure that it is sustainable. And it is something, you know, something that you'll continue to do. And this is what I boiled down to. It's kind of connected the same thing to what I was just saying, which is it's got to be easy and it's got to be delicious. But if I hit those two very basic things. But you got to hit both. You can't just hit one. If you hit both, Health, healthy food then becomes not only sustainable, but it's just like, it becomes. It's like the Netflix of food. It's like you just go on autopilot. You don't even think about it. Because it's easy, it's delicious. Of course I'll do that. Why wouldn't you? Because it's easy. Why wouldn't you keep doing it? Why wouldn't I want it tomorrow? Because it's delicious. You know, I mean, it's like you hit those two things and it's now autopilot. And I love, like, that's. That's kind of what I've strove for with the pluck. Because it's like, to me, that's the winning formula. When I can make health where you don't even have to think about it. Like, you're not even thinking about the fact that I'm eating a specific diet, or I'm not thinking about the fact that I'm eating healthy. It's no longer classified like that. Now it's just. I'm just eating.

Eating, yes.

And I'm loving it. Because if you're in a state of happiness and joy, you digest better, Life is better. You know, I mean, that's something a lot of people don't talk about either. It's like we. We don't always want to. We don't always want to be in that left side of the brain. Always want to be so heady about the choices we're making. You can get decision fatigue. You could just. Stress is in many ways as up there around diet and sometimes even worse. Like, if you have high stress, you don't digest properly. When you have high stress, you make poor choices. Like, to me, stress, sleep, and food are right. They're right there. They're kind of like all in that high tier of, like, you gotta balance those three. And if you're not balancing the three, then one of those will affect the other two.

Yes. Yet as humans, we're the only species that has the inability to balance those three. And we think we're the smartest species in the End. Totally.

Right? It's hilarious. I know, it is hilarious.

I really love what you were saying about the raw primal, because I was telling Harry I lived in San Diego for most of this year and it was either February or March. I did most of the month, like raw primal because I was by myself. So I would just go to the local farmer's market, I would get a bunch of ground beef, steak, lamb, things like that. And once you get over the mental barrier of it, it tastes so good. Like I was throwing some olive oil and balsamic vinegar and salt into the ground lamb and I remember thinking like, holy shit, this might actually kill me. I don't know what's going to happen. And similar to you, I felt amazing. I digested it great. My skin got better, my energy got better and it tasted delicious. But to your point, it's not easy. You're not going to go out to a restaurant with your friends and order a raw steak. So I just think you make a lot of good points and you actually being able to create products that can make these things taste really good and also make them very easy to get organ meat. It's like you're eliminating that friction for people, which is so important.

So important because, because ultimately, you know, and, and I don't, I don't mean to disparage anyone out there that's doing, you know, certain food products that are different. I mean, I believe no matter what health modality you're pushing, you believe that the health modality you're pushing is the right one. So your, your, your intention is a good one. I, I find most people's intention is in alignment with the greater good. I just find personally though that it's like a lot of them aren't sustained, they're not realistic, they're not grounded in this, in this earth, you know what I mean? And so I, I, that's what I look for. And, and you know what's so funny is that in many ways, pluck. So, because I know we're talking about it, but in case someone doesn't know. So pluck, as they mentioned, is a seasoning. But the way it's formulated is it's got five freeze dried powdered organs in it. So it's got liver, heart, kidney, spleen and pancreas. But then I combined organic spices and herbs with it to offset the flavor and make it just taste delicious. And what's so fascinating that in many ways all I didn't do, all I did that was different was I combined two ingredients that no One had combined before, but those ingredients independently existed. Like the freeze dried powdered organs are the exact same organs you find in capsules right now. You know what I mean? Like that's what supplement companies are using. The organic spices and herbs are what you find in your grocery store. Right? But it's just combining them and kind of like using my chef skills to kind of like make sure the flavors were there that really made it different. But what's cool about it, and this is when I connected the dots that made me go okay, maybe I have something here, was that the freeze dried powdered organ meat is shelf stable. The organic spices and herbs are shelf stable suddenly and it's still whole food. The organs, because all they do is they take the raw organs and they freeze dry them. So you get a little bit of den nutrient in that, in that process. But it's equivalent, it's actually slightly better than dehydrating. You know, it kind of goes like raw, freeze dry, dehydrate, cook. You know, I mean like that's kind of the, the, the, the like how, how you start to degrade the nutrition and meat like that's where it goes. 100 raw is the best. And then cooking is, is, is now where it's, it's losing some of its nutrition. But the freeze drying is still very, very nutrient dense. And so that's where you're, that's all I'm doing is I'm taking those. But my mission ultimately is that nose to tell eating. I truly believe that it's not just about one organ, it's not just about a few organs. Like I wanna, I wanna make it so that we can get as many parts of this animal into our diets easily and deliciously so. My goal is like brain, testicles, getting tripe, you know, the stomach lining in, in there. Like I wanna get every, as much as I can eventually. But that's something I'm working on which is getting access to it. It's, it's hard to get access to all this stuff.

Have you been, I was going to ask you, have you been finding it more challenging to source really high quality ingredients? Because this whole, there is a movement now towards this whole organ meat. Like there's this revival of organ meats and I think it's great, like people are coming around to it, but there's only so many that go around. Like you know, every cow only has so many organs, so.

Yeah, totally. Well, I'm always telling people that because everyone's always like, like how much should I Be eating of an organ. And I'm like, well, think about it from this perspective. If you were a tribe back in the day and you caught one animal, it had one liver.

Yes.

For however many people are in your tribe, could be 30 people. Right. So usually what they would do is they would give, you know, the liver and some of those or most of those really nutritious organs. They would give them to pregnant people, they would give them to the sick, give them to kids. Like, they would do that because they knew those were the most nutrient dense. The hearts would probably usually go to the leaders. You know, they're. There's certain. Within every culture, there's certain prized. Prized parts of the animal. I know. Like, God, I was reading about the. In new it, I think, which is an Alaskan tribe. Like, I think their prize one is like, the. The eyes of the fish or what. Or. Or something. And. And sometimes you'll go to, like, certain tribes and it'll be like, goat eyes, things like that. So it just. It just depends. But they would definitely. It wasn't like everyone was getting a little of everything. It was like. It was truly like, you got something. But probably certain parts of the animal were really getting divided amongst the people that needed it the most, you know, and so. So to your point, though, like, what's. It's fascinating. I definitely think there is a movement towards organs. I knew there would be. That's kind of why, you know, I created pluck, because I knew that organ meats would be the next big thing. I think we're still a few years off, personally, from the wider audience. I think we're seeing it within our circles. We're seeing it in increase, but I still think it's. It's a minimal increase because I think it's still limited by people's understanding of how to cook it, people's experience of familiar familiarity with, you know, sourcing it and, you know, like, knowing what to do with it. I think it still overwhelms people. And that's. That's kind of, I guess, to my advantage, because that's my goal is to make it so it's not overwhelming.

100%. James, are you familiar with Dr. Bill Schindler?

Oh, yeah, yeah. We're friends. Yeah.

He's awesome. I feel like you guys have a lot of things in common, but one.

Of the things that he had mentioned.

To us when he came on the show is his concept of, like, why, when you're. When you're buying beef in bulk, how that's actually more evolutionarily consistent of how we're supposed to eat, because probably back in the day, you were hunting and killing the whole animal. And then you're rotating between these different cuts where I think now a lot of carnivores, or they're either just eating ground beef or they're just eating ribeyes or like eating a shitload of liver, where, as opposed to what you're saying, it's like you're really probably divvying it up and alternating and rotating these different cuts. So, like, knowing how to prepare these things deliciously, it's more. It's evolutionarily consistent and it's just like more bang for your buck, too.

Totally. I wholeheartedly agree with him on that. And I agree. And to. To your example, I agree with that as well. I think. I think once again, it goes back to this idea of the illusion of health. Everyone thinks that what they're doing is healthy, you know, so. So every influencer out there that's pushing their thing, you know, whether it's a carnivore MD or any of them, you know, who are saying, just eat this, this, this, this, and it's like five things. It's like, okay, I'm sure that's definitely. I agree with him in that it's going to be better than the standard American diet. Absolutely. But is that how we're supposed to eat? Like, the same cut, the same type of foods all the time? You know, I. I definitely agree more with Bill that it's like you want to focus on the whole animal, and once you finish that whole animal, then get to your next animal, but, like, go through the whole animal first. And I get it, though, that that's overwhelming for people. I mean, most people don't, whenever they do cow shares, even a quarter share, they don't know what to do with probably, I would say maybe even half of what they get. They would. They don't even know what to do. Oxtail, for example, a lot of them don't know what to do with that. A lot of the slow cut, it's funny, It's a lot of the slow cut, the slow cooker cuts, they don't know what to do with yet. Those are kind of the easiest ones. Just throw them in a slow cooker. It doesn't get that much harder, you know, or that much easier. You just literally throw some. Some of these cuts just need to be cooked a long time. That's really it.

That's when my health took a turn for the best, was when I Started simplifying cooking and just trying to cook more. But do like slow cooking in a Dutch oven with like a chuck roast. And then I had four, four pounds of stew meat and then broth. And I could eat that for you know, two, three days. And you know, that's easily replicatable. It's tasty. So it hits your two boxes. So like, I do think these basic cooking skills are so important to like start to drive really healthy outcomes.

And that's, that's the power of what Bill is. So Bill is really focusing on teaching people these skills. Right? His, his, the. I forget the name of their kitchen.

It's Modern Stone Age kitchen.

Modern Stone Age, Yeah, I think it is. That's. Anyone going, I can't remember, they're in Maryland or something.

Annapolis, Maryland, I think.

Yeah. Anyone going in that direction, gotta stop by there. It's, it's. They're doing such amazing stuff. But yeah, he's really educating people on like how, what to do with these things, how to, how to prepare them. And I, I think that's awesome. The, the, the thing, the thing that's so fascinating. So like in your example of the soup and the stews and using these different elements of the animal. So if you go around the world, most countries are utilizing organ meats in their, in their, in their cultural foods, like I think of Mexico right off the bat. So they have a dish called Menudo that uses tripe, but it's more than just tripe. It's also using collagen bones. It's, it's, it's like, it's, it's using marrow from the bones. It's, it's using different parts of the animal to make the soup. And I was talking to a friend of mine who you guys should probably have on your podcast. Her name is Janine Farzen and she, she runs a website called Awfully Good Cooking. And she is just a mom, you know, she's a mom who has been cooking organ meats regularly every week for the last 10 years. So she's cooked every part of the animal, pretty much almost every part. And what she tells me is like, so Menudo takes some time to cook, it takes some skills. And she said that when she does take the time to do it, her kids love it so much that they ask for it on their birthdays. Really? Wow. So everyone take that in for a second. A dish that has tripe, like stomach lining in it, that has marrow and collagen and it's like, it's like really animal based soup Savory soup. And this is what the kids request for their birthday meal, for their special day meal. And she said, it's so nourishing on so many different levels. And I'm sure that that's what your body was receiving when you were doing what you were doing.

100%.

Go ahead.

I was just gonna say it's amazing what happens when you kind of unwire your. Your palate to eat these real foods. Because, like, those kids, I mean, if. If they're not eating processed foods and eating real foods, then they start craving those nutritious foods that are ultimately kind of like that's communicating with your body. Like, hey, you. You're getting everything you need from this meal. And then there's like, the other side of the aisle, which is I. What I feel like is just very disruptive to that communication network of, like, from your tongue to your gut, like, what's actually nourishing you.

Did you ever hear. So this is such a fascinating story. Did you ever hear about that? It's a study from the 1930s from Clara Davis.

No.

So basically, it's something that I don't think you could legally do now. But so what she did was she was able to convince all these mothers to basically put their kids in an orphanage situation where they were kind of in a control group where she could. She could dictate what they were able to eat. And so what she did was she got all these babies and she kind of tracked them over time. And. And she. At mealtime, she would give all the options, basically like 34 whole food options. Because she was basically trying to do a study to show people that when kids are given whole food options, that they will naturally gravitate towards the healthy foods. Because, you know, there's that idea that if we give kids their choices, that they're just going to want junk food. Right? That's what we expect. And so that's basically what she was doing, is she was creating this study. And basically some of the foods. I'm reading it right now. So some of the foods that she provided was. So nothing was processed, or at least it wasn't processed beyond, like, mincing or something like that or mashing. Because they were young babies. And among the offerings were like, fruits, vegetables, eggs, milk, chicken, beef, including liver, kidney, brains, sweetbreads, and bone marrow. The baby's. They did shun some of the liver and kidney as well as all of the vegetables. And there was also haddock, which is a fish. They had that, and they had pineapple. So the Kids didn't even touch those things. And on a certain level, it makes sense that they didn't touch the kidney and the liver. Because when you're a baby, you don't necessarily need a kidney liver at that point. You're developing. You're not necessarily, if you're thinking of, like, supports, like, you don't necessarily need to clean and help your liver and kidney at that stage because they're not even fully, you know, they're not degraded at all. You know, your liver and kidney, very healthy at that point, you. But here's what the kids did gravitate towards the. They ate the brains, which, hello, they're developing babies, Right. So they're building their brains. So they ate the brains, the sweet breads, and then the most popular item was bone marrow. Wow. So the kids themselves gravitated towards these things. And what's also fascinating in this, this, this study is that they then learned that the kids gravitated towards the foods that actually they themselves, their body needed the most. Wow. So you. They intuitively understood that. Which brings me. And this is a little bit of a tangent, but I think this is a fascinating part of the conversation is like, which brings me to that, that, that piece that I love talking about, which is that we have an innate intelligence around what our bodies need. But as adults, we. We get out of touch with it. When you're a kid, more in touch. As you get older, you get less. You get more influenced by the foods around you or your emotional eating, all that stuff. So you're less in touch with it. Right. Well, what's so fascinating me. So right now, a lot of us take capsules to get our nutrition. Well, the capsules completely bypass that communication. Because when I, when I'm low in salt, if I dip my finger in salt and I put it on my tongue, I get an immediate communication of like, your body either needs this or it doesn't. Right. You guys have done that before, right? Like, you do a couple licks and then your body's like, okay, I'm done. I'm done. And suddenly the salt tastes different. And you literally couldn't have another bite if you wanted it. It just, it would literally taste disgusting and make you want to throw up or something. Well, that's your body communicating like, I'm good, I'm done. It's immediate, immediate communication. If I take a capsule, I still get that communication, but again, it's delayed. It's completely delayed. And I might have already taken eight capsules before. My body's like, oh, too much, too much. Now you're bloated or you're this or you're that. Right? Well, that's what I love about the whole foods and even the way we do it in pluck. Because it's not encapsulated and because it's a seasoning you're putting on your food, you get an immediate communication between your, your body and your brain of like, does your body need or want more of this? And I, I'm really pro, like listening to our bodies because we can all like pretend we all need, yes, we're all nutrient deficient, I do believe that. But how much iron are you deficient in? Is that the same I'm deficient in? And you know, I mean like, we're all bio individual. Our bio individuality, our biodiversity is real. So we can't assume that your deficiency is the same as mine. That's why I love that intelligence that, that, that, you know, that in that food intelligence, that communication that we get when we eat real food.

Do you think that that intelligence comes from the taste bud itself?

I believe that's part of it. I think it's a sin. I think absolutely. Saliva communicates to your body that to prepare for digestion and it supports the digestion of that product just as much as I think your taste buds are informing your body to prepare for that food and informing your body whether you need or want that food. Absolutely. One of the things in nature that has historically been true is that flavor in nature equals nutrition. So if something has flavor, that means it's going to be nutritious. So our bodies typically gravitate towards in nature, things that have flavor, you know.

Yes.

The problem is, is our, you know, our, our food products these days, they have synthetic flavor, they have heightened flavor and no nutrition. So our body's like literally have no idea what to do with it. So you go to eat something here and it tastes like apple. You know, let's just say it's an apple, I don't know, like an apple candy that has some flavoring or some kind of like, I don't know, like pastry or something that has some kind of coating that has apple or sugar or something like that, that it's communicating to your body, this apple flavor that your body thinks, oh, it's an apple, it's going to have nutrition. And what happens is it has nothing. It's just, you know, wheat and sugar and it's just giving you calories, but no nutrition. And you're just like, your body's like okay, when, when am I going to get the nutrition? And it just keeps wanting more until it's full, but it doesn't communicate it's full because there's no nutrition. So I, I really believe our bodies are kind of in shock with these modern foods.

Are you familiar with Mark Schatzker's work? We had him on the podcast. He, he wrote an amazing book called the Dorito Effect. He talks all about such a good. It's such a good topic.

Like such a good. Yeah, well, that's actually where I got the information about how in nature food has flavor. I got it from that book.

Yeah, yeah, he's one of the, it was one of the best episodes that, that we've ever done. And a lot of we, I think we were both like nodding our heads with a lot of the stuff that you were saying because it's such good work. And I think to your point, it's such a shame how a lot of people that are buying the majority of their products from the inner aisle, the grocery store, which is true, because I think the average American gets 60% of their calories from ultra processed foods, which is an statistic. I mean, they're getting things like vanilla, apple, berry, but it's not actually the real source. It's some type of artificial flavor. And that's what's so interesting and what you're talking about, James, because when you eat this way, when you eat real foods that are nourishing you, you rewire your taste buds. And then when you try to go back and eat these foods, you can literally taste how artificial they actually are. It's like, you don't want that vanilla, you don't want that berry. Like, you want the real thing, not something fake.

And that's a really important message. I'm sure your audience may already know this, but it's worth probably repeating is like no one should ever think that their current state is. Their only state, you know, is that they're forever. You know, like, I just, forever am never gonna like this type of food. It's like, no, there's no forever around your palate and around your health. You can change things, you can make choices. And I'm always telling people, like, you know, we beat ourselves up when we make poor choices. And sometimes I know I'm susceptible to this, I'm a culprit of this. And so I'm sure that other people listening will identify but like, where you make a bad choice and then you're like, well, I just ruined my whole day. So I might as well make five other choices that are bad food wise, because what the hell, I just, I'm already down that path. So I'll just keep eating this way this day, you know what I mean? So we just keep, we kind of like lump all this stuff together. And the reality is it's like, no, you can make a bad choice and then make a new choice. Waste the next instant.

100.

You don't, you don't have to be resolved with this kind of stuff. And thinking like that, you're stuck. And palates are fascinating because like, my wife's a nutritionist and we used to do this, this sugar control detox. And we would put people on a food paradigm for two weeks where they got no sugars, literal, no, nothing with sugar. Nothing that was high in sugar and nothing that converted into sugar quickly in your blood. So no starches, no grains, really, no. Most fruits you couldn't do. You could do a little bit of berries. And then of course, no sweets and no alcohol. And in two, not only did people lose weight, of course, but in two weeks we recalibrated their taste buds. So these people that were drinking like three glasses of wine a night, when they went to drink even a glass, they could barely finish half of it because it, they tasted how sweet it actually is.

These self experimentations are so important. Like the information that you get from experimenting with these kind of like elimination diets. I think a lot of people might think they're a little bit extreme, but it gives you so much data to then build your, your basis of understanding around food. So it's like, okay, I understand that the foods that I'm eating constantly are so sugary and it's like warping my, the way my habits actually work, which is what most people struggle with when it comes to getting healthier.

Totally. I mean, it's something people need to understand too. Is that so you know, every food product out there, including mine, we're all businesses, right? We're all, we all have bottom lines and we're trying to profit, we're trying to make a profit. Hopefully we have a bigger mission and that's to help people get healthy. And that's definitely my mission. But, but most businesses, they have to make a profit, you know, to stay in business. So what are the two ingredients that are the cheapest ingredients to put in a food? It's salt and sugar. Hands down, those are the two ingredients that are the cheapest. So of course, when you're creating a product that you know, for the grocery Shelves, you're going to pump your product full of those two ingredients to make sure that your bottom line is, you know, that you're making a profit. And it's so fascinating like that, that goes to. Even with spices. So when I was creating pluck, so anyone that looks at the packaging, they'll see like the first ingredient is granulated on. It's onion. And then, and then I think from most of them and then it goes right into organ meat and then there's like garlic. But if you look at most other mixes of, or not or obviously we're the only organ mix. But I'm just talking seasoning mixes. Usually the first ingredient is salt. And so that's kind of when people are like, well why is your spice? You know, I, it's for my, my opinion is still affordable because that people, people don't realize that organ meats, freeze dried, powdered organ meats are expensive. But, but so we keep it as, as low as we can given that it has such a high, high quality and expensive ingredient. But when people look at pluck, they're looking at it as a seasoning. They're not necessarily thinking of it as like, oh, it has this functional food, organ meats. Right. But they don't realize is that we're not pumping our seasonings just with salt. Like we're using onion. Like onion is a real food. It's just granulated. So it's dehydrated and it's granulated. Right. That's expensive. But I guarantee there's no other or like just spices, just spice mix in general that has the same kind of quality of ingredients in terms of the amounts of the ingredients that we do because we, we were like, we're going to just not worry as much about the bottom line and we're going to make this as flavorful and as healthy as we can do it. Yeah.

So James, when you're going to the grocery store and you go to the spice aisle, is there a big variance in terms of like the quality of spices from one brand to another that you think people should be aware of that they probably don't know?

Oh man. So here's a little tidbit that's going to maybe disturbing for some people. So you know, in our industry and you know, in our circles, we, we're all advocating 100 grass fed organic because you know, organic means that it's non gmo. You know, it's usually, it usually means it's a little bit better unless you're buying it from the farmer Locally and, and, and one on one. But here's the thing, or for spike the spice world, organic spices are actually very, very dirty. There's a reason why most of the spice industry is fumigated and or radiated. It's because if you've ever seen where a lot of the spices come from, they come a lot of them internationally particularly. Some of these lower quality ones are coming internationally and you'll just see them in piles, just huge, huge piles and you'll see rats going through them. Like if it's chilies and stuff like that, you'll just see rats and different insects, all these things going in because they're letting them dry on the docks or in the grasslands or whatever, they're just letting them dry out. So all these different like creatures and critters go in them. And so then you get like rat defecation in there and you get all these different things. And this is, this is a fact, this is all spices, all of them. They are not very clean. And so the industry knows this. And so like we're, we're gonna, you know, irradiate this or fumigate this and make sure that this stuff doesn't kill anybody or hurt anybody. And that is their motivation. So it's not, it's not just to make it shelf stable or anything like that. They're actually trying to keep it as clean as possible. So it's kind of messed up because on a certain level like, like when we, we always do third party testing of our, of our products. We do, we do it when we get, when we get the ingredients in our co packer and then we do it once the ingredients have been packaged. So we get this third party testing for, for heavy metals and then any, any, any like contaminants or anything like that. So the organ meats always come back really clean. We get them from New Zealand, from 100 grass fed cows. We, I mean they're always clean. The numbers are really low and just, it's super clean. It's the spices and herbs, man. Those numbers come back and we're like what the, like what is going on? And they're, they're all over the place and they're not always the same. And sometimes it's usually because of the garlic or the onion and it's like, it's all over the place. And I'm like, ah, it makes me so frustrated because part of me is like, look, I, I have to use organic because my base thinks that organic is the best way to go. That, that term you Know matters to them, and it matters to me too. But holy moly. It's not as clean as you think. So I don't know if that fully answers your question, because you're really asking, are there certain brands. I think you almost have to kind of take it with a grain of salt and not, you know, I know we're talking about spices. Yeah, no pun intended. Exactly. But, like, okay, so organic means it can't be a gmo. You know, it means that it's been very minimally sprayed if. If at all, and it can't be fumigated or irradiated. Right. So there. A lot of times they're using steam or nothing at all, depending on the product. So in that sense, it's like, yeah, okay, that could be attractive to you. But you need to know also that that also means it's probably got certain contaminants in it that are higher than the ones that are non organic or irradiated or not. Okay. You just need to know that. So that means that if you're using some of these spices and you're using them a lot, I would use them with food that's cooked so that the heat helps to destroy some of that stuff. And I don't think anyone has ever talked about this. Man, I've never heard anyone talk about this stuff. But it's. That's. That's pulling the curtain behind the industry. That is the truth.

Oh, it's so good to know. Because we were. A couple weeks ago, we were at the local grocery store. We were trying to get, like, a rub for brisket, and we were like, all right, let's just, you know, you could make a rub, but, like, why don't we just buy one for convenience? And so we were just. We just turned around the ingredients labels, and like, there were so many of them where ingredient number two or three was just like sugar.

Yeah.

Oils, Maltodextrin. It was like literally every single rub in the grocery store, there must have been like 20 of them, all had those ingredients in there. And we were like, screw it, we'll just use salt and pepper. Because, like, we can't really buy anything that fits what we're looking to do here. So to your point, it's like we literally just saw that a month ago with our own experience in the grocery store.

Yeah. And so that's, to me, another. Another step around or spices. I'm just talking about the spice itself, but yeah, the ingredients of the mix. Absolutely. You gotta read labels, like, always. And, you know, whenever I'M kind of educating people on labels. I just remind them that the front of the packaging is not regulated. It's still like, think of it like a billboard. It's just trying to draw you into the product, the back of the packaging, only the box, literally only the box is regulated and, and then kind of from there it's like the formatting around the box is regulated, but not what's in it or what's set on it necessarily. So you really want to look. Your biggest clue towards what's in something is going to be the ingredient label. And even then sometimes it's not completely honest. So like some, like, some spices can have wheat in them and they don't, sometimes they don't even list it depending on where the spice came from. Sometimes if it's an international spice, they won't even list it. But like, is it off? God, man, I'm going to mess up the name Asafetada, which is a, which is a spice from India. It's got a naturally garlicky, it's used to replace salt a lot of times, but it's got a natural aromatic kind of garlic smell to it. And it's almost a little bit sulfuric smell. But when it cooks, that sulfur smell goes away. So it's only when it's, when it's just in its, its current state that it has that really strong sulfur smell. You cook it, you won't even notice it. It's in a lot of Indian food. Well, try to find that spice without wheat. Like try it. You can. It's so like I can't, I personally can't find, I cannot find asafetata without wheat in it. So you gotta read the back. Like if you're someone that's like not wanting, you know, wheat or sugar or dextrose, like, I mean another one that I keep finding dextrose in is sausages and, and. Oh yeah, and salamis and stuff like that. You can't find these things without dextrose.

Yeah, that's the funny thing too is like a lot of these, you know, pre prepared meats or like sausages, like you're saying like they have spices in them and you don't really necessarily know where those spices came from.

Yeah, so I'm always, I'm an advocate similar to you, Brad. Like you just make it yourself or, or just go basic. I mean, you know, I mean you guys obviously are fans of pluck, but like pluck is awesome on brisk. I mean you could, you can, we can go crazy with that. And what's kind of cool. So now we have, we have the three flavors, which is the All Purpose, which is, I think the one you guys had at that super bowl party. There's Zesty Garlic, and then they're spicy, and those are all individually just really great. But then the fourth one we have is. Is called Pure, and that is a hundred percent organ meat blend. So with that one, it's a hundred percent nutrition. It's got all five organs in it. It's got no salt, no spices. So that, that one is a little bit more versatile. Like, you could add that to your own spice mix and make your own pluck. Like you can really kind of go crazy with it and do. Do what you want with it.

Yeah. What, what seasoning do you find to be the customer favorite? I. I haven't gotten to try the zesty garlic yet, but that one looks really good.

Yeah.

Well, what's, what's your favorite and what's the customer favorite? Or is it the same?

Well, you know, it's so funny. Okay, so All Purpose has been out longer. So when, if you go to the site, you're going to see that one has the most reviews, but that's because it was out on a year and a half, whereas the other ones just came out, you know, last July or August. So it's kind of not fair in terms of just looking at the reviews. But All Purpose is definitely the best selling still. But as people are getting turned on to the new flavors online, you. Zesty Garlic is a popular, you know, popular one. But if I put a flight. If I put every product on a, on a, on a plate and let you taste each one. I did that at Dave Asprey's biohacking conference last year. I let people taste every single one of them. And, you know, it was. The favorite was Spicy. When people tasted all three of them next to each other, they all, they were like, spicy is amazing. So I, But I think that online people don't. They, they get deterred. They think, oh, spicy. I don't do spice. But I'm like, no, no, you don't understand. I balanced that. I balanced spicy. Like, I made sure it wasn't too spicy because for my money, when I eat something that's spicy, I, I don't want it just to dominate. I don't want the spice or the heat just to dominate. I want to taste flavor still. So what I did was I designed it so that you got flavor. Flavor, flavor, Heat. Like, the heat only comes in at the end.

Do you have any recipes that you go to when you're trying to solve for? Because I think it's a problem a lot of people are kind of struggling with right now. There's so many factors, right? Like convenience, nutrition, cost. Is there anything that you would recommend and maybe even like when you did that trial with your wife who's a nutritionist, was there anything you guys were promoting in terms of just like simple meals for people to go test out for themselves?

Well, in general, with recipes, you can go to eatpluck.com and just click on recipes and you'll see tons of recipes. And they're not all from me. There's some from me, but they're from a bunch of different chefs and culinary masters that have contributed recipes to us. And they all have pluck in them, but they also, we also have some organ meat ones on there that, that in general is a really great resource. We put out probably a recipe every week, so there's a lot of good ones. The one that's out there right now has heart in it. It's called a hearty, hearty meatball sub recipe. So it's really cool way to get heart into meatballs. But in terms of like, how to make in general kind of food easier or recipes easier, I actually like to look at it as a formula instead of a recipe. So I just kind of, I recommend, when people are figuring out what to eat is just look at it as like, okay, well, you really just need three things. You need, you need some protein, you need, which I recommend animal based. You need some fat, and then you need, if you want some vegetables. But that's obviously arguable. Some people don't advocate that. But, but I would argue that those are the three. You don't need the, you don't need the starch. You necessarily. I mean, I do recommend certain. Sometimes women need a little bit more starch than men. If you're doing, you know, some, sometimes you want some resistant starch. But those basic three to me are the money shots, right? And so I, I always just recommend that what you do is you just pick, pick that protein and then match it with something that just intellectually, you know, your emotional intelligence thinks that they go with. So, like, for example, if I'm going to go with Asian influence, if I want it to have an Asian flair to it, then I usually go to coconut oil. I just go the coconut oil route. If I wanted to have more of a Italian fused flavor, I think of olive oil or I think of like lard, even If I want to have it be like more buttery, I think of ghee or literal butter, you know, you know, I mean, so you just think of that around the food, the, the fat that you pair with it, and then, you know, and then there's the age old. And I, I don't know if this is fully accurate, but this is just a guesstimate, so you don't have to think about too much, is you want the amount of protein you're eating to be about the size of your palm. But I know there's a lot of talk right now about how much protein, and some people say you take your weight, then you divide. You know, you. For men, it's like if you're 170 pounds and you need. It's. It's one ounce per pound, you are, you know, so I'm sure you guys are keen to all this stuff. So. But, but in general, you want the. Hands down. I find the easiest way to cook is just to use ground meat because it already has the fat in it, right. So you don't have to add too much to the pan. You just, you just, you put it in the pan, the fat starts to melt, it starts to help cook it, and then you just eat. You just eat that. And it's very satisfying because you're not just getting protein, you're getting fat too. I mean, I eat a lot of ground meat speaking our language.

Yeah, you really are. And it's such an easy way to get started. That's how I started was literally just making ground beef in a pan when I lived in New York City. And it's like, it's just become this natural progression. And I loved what you were saying about how you guys post around a recipe a week because I think that's such a fun way to keep this whole diet and lifestyle entertaining. And fun is like, why not just challenge yourself and learn a new recipe a week? And you know, there's so many different variations and flavors and seasonings you can put onto your meat that you can literally have a different experience every time and get really healthy and feel great in the process too.

Totally. And, and you know, when you're using stuff like ground meats from different animals, you start to, you do start to see, like, okay, when I do lambda, for example, I personally find that lamb is more flavorful with garlic, whereas beef is more flavorful with onion. You know, so you start to find like, certain meats really do. There's a reason why chicken typically pairs really well with garlic versus beef. Pairs really well with onion. You know, like, there's a reason why chefs do that. When you go to restaurants and you're like, oh, this is garlic chicken, you see that a lot. But you don't. You don't necessarily see, oh, I don't know. I'm trying to think of an example, but I can't think of one. But, But. But there's a reason why certain, you know, white wine typically goes with poultry and fish versus red wine with red meats. There's a reason for these things. And so as you do this cooking, start to just kind of explore that, you know, like, when I make burgers, I will typically add onion to. I'll add some onion and parsley. I love adding parsley to it. Fresh parsley. I just love the way it looks. And that's something that's really important, too. Just to throw that out, there is, like, we focus a lot about. On the quality and the taste, which is all very important, but we do eat with our eyes as well. And so you're going to find more joy in your food is if. When you go to eat your food, if it has certain brightness to it, so reds and bright greens really do. They're more attractive. And so when you put them, add them to your food, you're gonna find that you're just gonna want to eat it even more. Like, your hunger is gonna kind of. Kind of come out of you even more. And your joy. There's a reason. Like, there's a reason why McDonald's, for example, and a lot of fast foods use those colors. They use yellows and reds and whites. There's a reason for that. They've done market research, and they find that those colors initiate hunger.

Interesting.

So it's the same thing. When you're making your food, add things to it that are going to kind of inspire you. Like, I even. I even kind of share with people sometimes about, like, even how you plate it. Like, don't just throw it on the plate, because unless you. Like, for you, food. Food is fuel, and you don't care. Like, I get it. If that's your thing, then that's great. But if. When. You know, when I did Carnivore, I did carnivore for 30 days. And when I did Carnivore, I got bored. After a while, I did. It felt boring. And so that's not a. That's not a way to, like, live. You know, you don't want to feel bored every time you're gonna eat, because we eat, like, three Times, you know, two to three times a day. You know what I mean? Yeah. So, like, you have to find joy wherever you can. And so things like, you know, things that get you excited and pumped up, like, you want to incorporate that in the food. So sometimes I like to incorporate, you know, with. Let's say, if I'm making the ground meat, you know, you have the ground meat. Sometimes I want the patty to be nice and thick. Sometimes I want it really like a smash burger, and I want it really thin. Like, mix it up. Don't do. Always do the same one. Sometimes I like grilled onions on top with some avocado. Sometimes I don't, you know, and, like, sometimes the way you stack it, the colors you add to it, they're just going to completely open up your experience and add. Add a little joy to the eating process.

Yeah. It's such an interesting point to think about. Like, could you almost blend, like, a carnivorous type diet with the quality of care and joy that you're talking about? Because I do think that is actually probably a fair criticism of carnivory is, like, there are some people that just think of food purely as, like, an energy source, which I get it, and it's efficient, and there's a time and a place for that. But I do think it's like, if you're just making the same dish day in and day out, and you're using, like, an air fryer to make it, it sounds cheesy, but there's, like, there's no love or care that goes into that. And it's funny. We have a buddy, his girlfriend is Argentinian, so she naturally cooks with, like, a lot of seasonings and flavor sauces.

Yeah.

And so she made us burgers, like, two summers, and she, like, threw some ground lamb in there. She threw in a bunch of parsley, some chopped onions, some garlic, and it was, like, all these spices and care that she put into it. It, like. Like you said, it, like, lifted the flavor of it and also the experience. And even though we were still eating it on a bun, like, I just felt really good afterwards.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, and I love our. I mean, you know, Latin America has this chimichurri sauce that is, hands down, one of my favorite sauces. And that's really, like taking parsley, fresh parsley, and some other herbs with. With olive oil and, you know, a little vinegar and. Or lemon juice, and you just mixing it together. It's so freaking good. But, yeah, I. We cannot discredit the energy. The energy that not only you're in when you're eating, but the energy that's put into the food, I. I don't believe that that topic is talked enough about. And I know we can't unpack it here, but it's like, I love. I love talking about that and exploring that, because I think it's. I think it's an aspect of dieting. And when I say dieting, I'm talking any diet that is lost. Like food. Yes. Food can be fueled. Absolutely. And I'm not disparaging anyone that treats it like that, if that's what works for you, because I know, like, a lot of weightlifters, they eat the same thing every day. It's just fuel. They're good. They're in their sweet spot. They get their high from weightlifting. You know, I mean, like, food is just a functional thing for them. I get it. But for most of us, that is not the case. For most of us, food is community. Food is a place where we finally get to stop and breathe and be with ourselves. And so, for my money, I want that moment to be as joyful as I can make it, whatever that means.

I couldn't think of a better way to summarize this whole conversation. It's like putting your heart and soul into it. And I almost think that, like, Europeans, like, if you go to Europe, you kind of, like, feel that because they have long cultural delineations. They're like, oh, our food's better than your food. So, like, we're gonna put more effort into it. And you feel it when you're eating the food.

Well. And you notice in. In most European countries, they take. They allow for longer lunches. Like, they. They actually. They. They honor. They honor the. The eating, the meal times by giving you more time to savor it, you know, let alone, like. Like, I think I was just in a conversation with some recent, like, you know, schools. Our kids that are in school, they get 30 minutes for lunch. That's including the time it takes for them to get to the cafeteria, to get the stuff out of the locker to get there. So they're ultimately, you know, and just the way kids are, like, they probably have 15 minutes to eat their lunch. Yeah. Realistically. Right. That is not enough time to actually be in the. The experience, to be in the proper digestive space. It's just not enough time. And you go to freaking Europe, and they take two hours. You know, I mean, it's like. It's like. It's. It's a freaking. It's a time to decompress and, and to communicate and to commune and to, to be in community or whatever it is, or just to just kind of be in one's own space. And I gotta think they're healthier for it. I just gotta totally.

It's almost like speechless idea of like. I feel like Americans are very like, linear and like, the way they think, it's like just like getting through the day and like trying to just like rush through everything, point A to point B. And there's not this like, you know, holistic view of like, what the experience is and like, how to actually enjoy that. And it's just like, culturally. I'm definitely speaking in generalizations, but there's definitely something to that.

Well, and you know, the other thing too. I mean, we could even take it technically further, but like, when you only have 30 minutes for lunch, or even sometimes an hour, depending on where you are, when you have a very constrained amount of time to eat, what does that support? You're basically supporting microwaving. You're supporting quick and easy meals which are going to be processed usually. You know, I mean, like, you're. It's a culture that's supporting that mentality. So when we can't knock people that are like, well, yeah, I have microwave meals, like, I don't have time to do other stuff. And then if I, if I have to bring my own lunch, like, then, then it's like that means that I have to prepare it, but I have to commute two hours to work and back. And when I get. You know what I mean? So it's like the lifestyle doesn't really breed a lot of times, doesn't breed us. Our health, our health plan. You know, I mean, our business plan and our health plan sometimes don't coexist. And I think that that's one thing if anyone, you know, we're at the top. At least when we're recording this, we're at the top of 20, 23. And I would love people to think of their business plan or their career and their health plan is the same thing. If, if you, if your health is good, then that means you can do more for. In the world. But if, if they're not connected, then you know, your health is probably going to wane.

Yeah, that. That's such. I think that's such a powerful point to, to put a bow on this conversation. I feel like your, your mission and your passion for what you're doing comes through so clearly. And that's why we are just, you know, so fortunate to be able to have you on the show and have this conversation because, you know, starting this podcast out, we wanted to really seek out brands and people that were doing things the right way and are really passionate about creating real food products and trying to nourish people and make people healthier, man. So, you know, number one, just wanted to thank you for everything you're doing. Thank you for coming on the show and if you could just kind of plug how people could get connected with you and, you know, order some pluck if they want it, that would be. That would be fantastic.

Absolutely. First, thank you so much for just supporting the nose tail mission and doing all that you guys do. And I'm very grateful to be on that podcast. You can find more about pluck seasoning. You can find us@eatpluck.com and then on socials, you can find us at Eat Pluck as our handle. And then if you want to just see what I'm up to personally, you can find me at Chef Jamesbury. That's Barry with an A. And please reach out. I really do love supporting people on their journey. I'm very much all about letting people have the dignity of their journey. So I don't necessarily tell you like this. You have to do this. And I'm not a dictator about it. I'm more like, I listen a lot. And then when you're ready to ask questions, I'll answer them. But I welcome anyone reaching out with their experiences or their questions. We really do love our community and we are grateful for our community. Awesome.

James, thanks so much. This was such a great combo, and I think our listeners are going to get a ton of value out of it. So appreciate the conversation and look forward to staying in touch.

Definitely. Thank you, guys.

Thanks, man.

Sam.