Episode 37: Chef James Barry of Pluck on Intentional Eating

Welcome to the Call to Farms podcast, a place where we explore the journey of food and farming from our farm to your table. I'm your host, Tim Ng, along with my wife Sophie.

Hey, friends.

And we are on a mission to inspire, educate and connect you with stories from other local farmers and other real food enthusiasts of all kinds in pursuit of true nourishment.

Hey, friends. Today we're so excited to bring on Chef James Berry to. Chef James and our family met, I want to say, two years ago at Poly Face Farms, Joel Salatin's farm at Maureen's event, God's good table event. And we talked about nose to tail cooking and it was so inspiring and so fun. I remember when Chef James had a whole beef tongue and he had it out for everybody to display and everyone just had a great time. But I wanted to give you a quick overview of Chef James. James Sperry has 20 years in the culinary field. He started as a private chef cooking for celebrities such as Tom Cruise, George Clooney, Gerard Butler, Sean Puffy Combs, Mariska Hargitay of Law and Order, Svi, Barbara Streisand, and John Cusack. Most recently, James launched his first functional food product, Pluck, a Oregon based seasoning company. And you guys, this is. You have heard me talk about this product. If you've seen me doing any cooking demos. It's the first of its kind and an amazingly easy and delicious way for people to get organ meats into their diet. All ages of our family love it, from grandparents to the children and they don't even know that they're eating organ based seasoning. James is also a published cookbook author, having co authored the books in Margaret Floyd's book Eat Naked and co authored the follow up cookbook, the Naked Foods Cookbook. He most recently co authored the recipes in Dr. Alejandro Junger's book Clean Seven. And we're so excited to have Chef James here on the show with us today. Chef James, welcome to the show.

San Jose in the house.

That's right.

East side represent.

Yes.

I should share that. When we all met, we realized that we're all from San Jose, California.

I think he was on the west side. You're from the west side?

No, I'm from the east side.

East side. We made it out.

Yeah, right? Yeah. It was so hard. Not. Yeah.

So Chef James, tell us a little bit about yourself. We always kick off and ask all of our guests to tell us a story about how they answered the call to farms in the pursuit of true real food and nourishment.

You know, I think it's through contrast, my household was such that we knew dinner was ready because the smoke detector went off. It was like, my mom was not a chef, my dad's not really either. But luckily, though, they did make food from scratch. So, you know, growing up, we had our meat. We had. We did have mostly frozen vegetables. Cause that was the thing then, you know, in the 70s. And then. And then we'd have like a baked potato or something like that too. So. But we. I always think of the plate that kind of looked like the. The 50s kind of a plate that, that it would look like in the 50s. Like, I felt like even though I was born in the 70s, I felt like I ate like 1950s diner or something like that. But I learned to scramble an egg at 7 and I was just hooked on, you know, cooking and immediately took to it, Started reading it for pleasure. Took culinary classes in junior high school, as many as I could, and it was my best class. Like, I clearly just gravitated right to it. But for some reason at that age, I didn't think that it was a career. Like, I thought, oh, if you're going to be a chef, you gotta work nights. And I didn't want to work nights. For some reason at the age of 10, I was like, I'm a family man and I don't want to work at nights. I have no idea why, but that was the reality. And so I kind of just said, well, this is going to be a hobby. And got into my 30s and 9, 11 had happened, and I was like, you know, life is precious. We don't know when. When our time is up. And I just decided right then and there I was going to audit my life and only do the things that had heart. Like the only. The things that I was truly passionate about. And I. There were some things that I was. I was substitute teaching in the. The LA Unified at the time. And I didn't really. I was really just doing it as Bill Payne. I didn't. Didn't care for it. And so I was like, okay, I'm gonna change that. I'm gonna go to culinary school and do that. And I knew I didn't want to, like, work or own a restaurant. I wanted a private chef. And so I found a school in New York that was very well known for healthy cooking called the Natural Gourmet Institute. And it was fantastic. I mean, I. It was expensive and I had to really work to save up for it, but it was one of those schools that gave back 500, 500 times. Like every time someone from LA called looking for a private chef, they referred me every time. And so I just quickly built my resume to some of the names you mentioned. And then I started meal delivery service because I realized I was cooking for Tom Cruise. Actually, I cooked for him for about two years. And there were a lot of people that got let go of through those two years because it is a really hard job. I mean, he's a great person, but it's a very demanding job. And a lot of people came and went. I think it was myself and maybe like Katie's assistant, because he was married to Katie Holmes at the time. And I think it was her assistant and maybe the house manager. I think the three of us were the only ones that were there consistently through the two years or more. And. But I left this very solid job, very well paying job because I was like, you know, I'm here to help more than just the 1%. I really, I really, I knew that the way I was cooking for people was helping. I had other clients that had struggled to lose their, their baby weight, for example, had struggled with chronic illness. And once they started eating my food, it started to go away. And so I, I knew that I could help more than just Tom Cruise. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna start a business that will make it more accessible now. I had no idea what I was doing. I just knew that I knew how to cook, I didn't know how to run a business. And I spent the next eight years kind of learning. But oh my goodness, it was hard. It was really, really hard. Challenging, challenging. But then, then I, I left la. Sold that business, didn't make much money, but I just had to get out. Cause I was so swallowed by it. And then I was a stay at home dad for about five years. And during that time, I got my health back, I got more sleep, I got my creativity back. And that's when I came up for With Pluck.

Wow. Chef James, can you go in a little bit more detail? Because that was, that was a great overview. And I'm just curious because a lot of people I know who are fascinated and interested in cooking and want to go to culinary school. You made it sound like you just went to like this really top school, but what's the process like to get into it? Do you already have to have years of experience, like on your resume in order to get accepted into natural gourmet school?

Well, that school, that program doesn't exist as it did when I went to it. It now is folded into this ICE program in New York. But no, you don't, you don't have to, you know, it's not like film score. You have to submit, you know, a short film and hope that they like it or anything like that, or write an essay. You really just have to, you know, you apply and you hope that they have room for you, but if they have room, I'm pretty sure they'll take you. And usually culinary schools are expensive because you're covering the cost of all the food that you're going to be preparing in the class, all the different, the kitchen spaces, all that stuff. So, so they can be costly. And some of them vary between, you know, a year to two years. And the one I did though was accelerated program. And that was. It was there four to five months, I think, but it was like every day. And I think if anything, what I would offer is that if you're interested in cooking that yes, you can go to a school. And I do recommend it. I think you learn a lot in a culinary program, but what you don't learn is how to be fast and efficient. And so the way to do that is to actually work in an environment that forces you to be fast and efficient. And so I did, I, I basically, I did this Vans Warp tour. Have you guys ever heard of that? It's like a music festival. I don't know if they still do it anymore, but it used to be annual. It was a big, big event. We did 50 cities in 60 days. Like, we traveled all through the US and even into Canada. And it was massive festival. And I, I did that specifically so that I could learn to be a better chef, because. Cause I knew that I had, you know, I had only learned so much in school. And so I, I got offered the gig to be the vegan vegetarian chef on the band's Warp tour. And I was like, let's do it. You know, and I, and I. It was some of the hardest work I've ever done. You know, it was really, really challenging, but it absolutely made me a better chef. So you, you really do want to put yourself in scenarios that, particularly if you're going to spend all that money to go to culinary school because most people that go do not become chefs. So right away I would first get a job where you're like a short order cook just to see if you even like. Doesn't mean you'll do it forever, but just make sure that you don't mind making the same food over and over and that it's, you know, that you don't mind kind of working in very on your feet all day because it is exhausting in, in very hot temperature kitchens. And that you don't mind, you know, the kind of pirate like characteristics that come with being a chef. You know, a lot of chefs are not healthy. A lot of chefs are maxed out. Like they work really long hours, really late hours. They don't go to bed till like 2 or 3 or 4. And so it's just not a healthy lifestyle. So you really want to make sure that you're specific about what you want to get out of it.

That's interesting. I love your advice on working in environments that stretch you. One of the things that I did when we were starting our business, we had a self serve frozen yogurt shop and we were bringing in espresso, like with Boba, specifically, like with espresso. And I remember I had applied to work the early shift for Starbucks and it was specifically because I'm like, I want people to yell at me. I want people at the 5am when they, the doors open and there are people and the machines are, are blown glaring. Like I didn't want to take the cash register. I'm like, I'll be behind the machines and I need to learn this. The, the level of efficiency and productivity and the pressure. But I'm curious. Yeah, it's that that was, you know, in our 20s though, that was, that was forever.

Did you, I mean, did you get out of it what you, you had hoped?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And, and then I took all the skills back to our self serve frozen yogurt shop and then trained the employees with, with, with that because, you know, on one hand like I needed to learn this and I could take like a bartending class or I could take an espresso school. But there's nothing to replace that experience that you could get hands on when the pressure's on and not from the cost that it would, that would have cost us to make the mistakes from our own customers. Like I would rather take the hit from someone else's customers and learn on the job that way.

Yeah, I, I think that, that you nailed it. I mean, I think if you really want to, real life experience is going to give you more education. But the reason why I would choose, if, let's say you want to become a chef, why I would choose a specific culinary program is less for the education and more for the contacts.

Yeah.

And, and because I know a lot of chefs who Go down the path of saying, like, oh, I actually want to be a private chef. But then they go to, like, the Culinary Institute or something like that. And. And at the time, back in the day, 20 years ago, those programs were churning out chefs for restaurants. And so if I met a chef that went to one of those programs and they're like, oh, I want to be a private chef, they would have. They literally had no clue on how to get into it, nor did they get any referrals, because no one was calling those schools for private chefs. They might be now, I'm not sure, but 20 years ago, they were not. And so I really advise if anyone's thinking of going on that path is find someone that you can have as a mentor. Like, when I first. I mean, probably up to about 15 years ago, I was a constant mentor to people that were getting into the private chef industry, because that's an industry that there's. There's no school that really teaches you to be a private chef. There's no kind of blueprint on how. What to charge, how to do it. It's its own kind of talent. And. And I had. When I first got out of culinary school, I found someone who was already doing it, who mentored me. And so I've kind of paid it forward and done that for others. But I highly recommend if anyone goes down that route to find a mentor, because there's just. You'll make so many mistakes, and you don't have to. If you just talk to someone who's done it already, they'll get you so much further ahead than you would be otherwise.

That's so true about mentorship. I want to know, just for purely selfish reasons, but how does Tom Cruise eat? What dietary principles does he follow?

Whatever I cooked. No, I mean, that was. I mean, that is kind of. I mean, I'm joking. But also, there's truth that what was my power as a chef was that I didn't just come to cook good food. Like, I came with a very conscious nutritional background, like, even when it was really interesting. So I got out of culinary school and I had. You know, I was in my 30s, right? So I was used to getting paid, you know, 20, 25 bucks an hour. Like, I was not getting minimum wage at that age. And I got out, I did my internship at this rehab center in Malibu, and they offered me a job, and it was for $9 an hour. And I literally. I got off the phone and I was crying to myself. I was like, I cannot believe I'm in my 30s, I have friends who I grew up with who are like, lawyers, and they're like, buying houses. And I'm like. I'm like, I'm getting offered a job for $9. There's no way I can survive off of that. And. And I was. I was just. I was destitute about it. I was like, what did I just do? Did I just embrace a career that's not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna be able to survive on? And what's so interesting is that I think the next day I got a call from a woman who had gotten my information from the school I went to. And she said, hey, we're looking for a private chef. And she starts telling me what they're looking for. And she's like, well, we want them, you know, we want you to cook with no fat, and we want you to do this and that. And it was like, very kind of like, stereotype of what a diet is, should be, like, what. What diet food should look like and taste like and all that stuff. And I was just like, here I am, even though I'm desperate, you know, and want a good job. I was like, well, I can't do that. I literally turned her down. And she was like, well, what are you talking about? Like, why? And I said, well, that's just not how I cook. I don't believe in what you're saying. I don't believe that's how we get healthy. And she said, well, what do you believe? And so I started telling her, I said, well, I believe that you shouldn't be making everything from scratch. I believe that it should have fat, like regular animal fat. You should be eating animal products. You should be eating some vegetables, but. But you should be minimizing, you know, the ultra processed foods and sugars and things like that. And after I shared what I said to her, she said, okay, well, we'll do what you said. And I got my first client. And that is how I've been from day one, obviously. But even to this day, when people come to me and they say, will you private chef for me? I tell them, well, this is what I do. I don't mold myself to them. They mold to me. And it's not because I'm on a soapbox about it, but it's more of, like, I truly believe that it's not about following a specific diet. It's just about eating nutrient dense, real food. And as long as things are made from scratch and I'm controlling the ingredients, the people will feel better. I mean, that's why when you go to Europe, you go to any kind of place where they're making things locally and they're not outsourcing things from ultra processed foods, but they're actually making them from scratch. They're using local produce and product that you feel better eating it.

And did that come from your time at the culinary school or did you already come in with those principles before?

I think it's, I think it was a mix of yes, I, that, that is some of the principles I got from the school. Like I, that's actually, you know, when I went to the school, that's when I first learned about Weston A. Price. That it was at that school that they, that was one of the suggested readings was that they're, you know, their book. And I bought it there and everything. And I was very, you know, enthralled by it and curious and I learned all about, you know, organ meats and soaking your grains and your nuts and seeds. And I, and I was doing a lot of stuff. Now I wasn't. What's interesting is that I didn't leave the program going like, okay, now I'm going to start cooking organ meats. But I did leave it sprout, you know, like soaking and properly preparing food, you know, like, like making my own cultured vegetables, like culturing my own product and soaking the grains and just, just sprouting things when I could, things like that. And it wasn't until much later did I actually go, well, wait a second, like, why am I not doing the organ meat piece? Because that's like, that's the most nutrient dense food on the planet. And like, I know I didn't grow up eating it, but I gotta figure out how to incorporate that into what I'm doing. And I think it was really having K that actually pushed me that direction because I was like, oh, now it's not just me. And I really gotta, I gotta help my kids get these foods into their diet and not have it be like a picky eating kind of thing or an issue around that. So that was kind of interesting. But it definitely, the school got me in. But I do also think it was like, you know, here I am, I'm 30 years old, you know, so I was a little bit more grounded than like a 22 year old, you know, I was just, I was a little bit more like, yeah, you know, I think, I think I know what I'm talking about. You know, I mean like I'm gonna, I'm gonna stand up for what My experiences have been, you know, and.

And back then, I mean, it's probably, what, 20, 20, 30, 20 years ago, did the concept of eating more of the Weston A. Price nourishing traditions was that widely accepted?

Okay, you. I mean, you can talk to even Sally or Joel. All of them. Yeah. It's like, we're all still outlier. You know, those western prices. You know, those of us that do that. It's like we're all still outliers, which is so absurd. When I've talked to Joel about. I'm like, joel, now that you've been around for as long as you have, now that your farm is a proof of that, it works. Your principles work. Are you getting the respect you deserve? And he's like, no. They just say that it's. Well, they just complain that my acreage is only so big, and so, of course it works on that, but that if I was 10,000 acres, it wouldn't work. And I'm just like, you know, that's just lame. You know, that's. It's just. It's just stupid. Like, but. But, yeah, you know, that was. What's interesting is when, you know, I'm acting like, oh, well, it's my way of the highway when I got a culinary school. But the reality is, is that I did have to compromise with clients. Like, they would say I would get in the door, but then there might be a trending book. Like, when I first got a culinary school, it was like the Fat Flesh Diet. That was the hot book at the time. And so my first client said, oh, can you make it based on the Fat Flesh Diet? And I was like, okay. And I didn't even know what that was. I had to read the book, I had to practice the recipes, and I had to, like, get good at it and not just understand it, but get good at it. But I still did it my way, you know, I mean, I still did everything from scratch, and I would still look at the recipes. And I do this even to this day. Like, when I read a cookbook and I look at recipes from any source, I. I kind of just. I. I get instincts. You know what I mean? Like, when I'm reading, I'm like, you know, I think that I should do this instead or that instead, and I just follow my instincts with it because I've learned to trust them.

Yeah.

You know, that. That's one thing that. I mean, that's even kind of how I came up with pluck. It's like. It's like as I've gotten older. I don't talk about this that much, but I really do believe that our instincts are our gold. Like our instincts, if no matter what you believe in that they're, they're. Our instincts are kind of the word of God in a sense, in that you're, it's, it's, it's your, it's your uniqueness and it's, and it's possibly coming from another source, but it's, it's that source talking through you and coming out. And it's like it's truly what differentiates any of us is your instincts and my instincts. And I believe part of the path of anyone should be to learn to follow your instincts because they're probably what's going to be best for you over someone else's opinion of what they, you, you know, they think you should do.

Chef James, has, has your cooking evolved, like over the times with doing private chef cooking and now with pluck? Actually, let me back up a little bit. Now that you do pluck, do you do any more private cooking? Do you still get to do, do you still get to be a chef or are you just primarily in the pluck?

It's. That's such a funny question. I mean, I mean, it's a great question, but I mean, it's just so funny because I, I, depending on when you talk to me about it, I probably would answer differently. I recently did a private chef job, but if you talked to me last year, I would have been like, no, I haven't done one in a while. But I, but I recently did one. I. And it was mostly because it was like it came from a referral from a friend of mine who you mentioned, Dr. Alejandro Younger. He, he's the, he's, he's. He, he has a few different New York Times bestselling books, but one of them is called Clean. And it's, he's. He kind of came on the scene for detoxing, but we became friends when he was first developing that. And he's just a wonderful soul. And we've always kind of collaborated on things, you know, over the years where if he has a high profile client, he'll refer them to me. I'll help them. And it just serves everybody. And so he, he referred me to somebody who was in Paris who was looking for some support. And the pay was right. The advice, the adventure was there and it wasn't so time consuming. That was going to take away from my family for too long. So kind of checked all the boxes and I did It. And it was, it was really fun. Like, I was beautiful being in that position again. I hadn't done it in a while and it was nice to work those muscles and I'm really glad that I did it. And I'll probably continue to do it every few years because I don't want to lose that muscle. But I mostly cook for my family at this point or when we have dinner parties. My family jokes, though, particularly my wife. I should say that the life that, you know, people think that a family of a chef would have, she's like, we don't have that life. Like, for the most part, he does very simple things and sometimes it's even overcooked and da, da, da, da, da. Like he's gonna. Laughs that it's like, like, oh, you burned the broccoli, you know, like, because, because I wasn't paying attention or whatever. But. But when I turn it on, which, which they, they're always trying to get me to turn it on. Or like, if we have dinner parties, they're like, oh, now he's going to turn it on. Then they're like, oh, now this is the life of a, you know, family chef. You know, that's why I asked you.

Originally, because when you start talking about instincts, then I'm. It made me think about the military and how a lot some of my classmates, they went on the fly and be a pilot, but then they get to a certain point in their career where they get grounded and they don't fly anymore. And so when you're talking about instincts, I'm like, oh, you must be passionate about cooking all the time. And now that you're doing pluck, I was wondering, do you even get a chance to go out there and just, you know, work on that skill sets? And so thanks for sharing that.

That's such a good question. I mean, and it is interesting because I am still passionate about food. But what's really changed though is that I more and more think that we're. We're getting into the weeds too much with the details. You remember that book back in the day, like, don't sweat the small stuff. Do you remember those books? I think it's a whole series. Like, I more and more am like, you know, I think that that's actually more accurate of how we should be looking at food, you know? You know? Yes. Is 100% grass fed gonna be better? Sure, sure. But does that mean that you should be stressed out and not eating out at restaurants because you cannot find 100% grass fed because you really won't be hard pressed to find it or just because you can't find organic or just because you can't things. And I think a lot of people do that, particularly in our, in our, you know, in our circles. But I just wonder, is that the most conducive energy towards health? And what I mean by that is so placebo effect, right? Placebo effect works like it's, it's a factual, scientific thing, right, that if you, you have a test group, one person has the, the actual medicine and another has a placebo. Right. And a certain percentage of that group who get the placebo have the exact same react, you know, results from the people that get medicine. Right. So. So we know the placebo works to a certain point. And I'm more and more thinking that we're going to get. We're already living in a modern world where things are stressful, and so we're much like. We're at a higher stress level than we probably ever ancestrally have been. Well, I know that people would argue, well, but if you're being chased by a wild animal, that's high stress. But you weren't under that stress 24 hours a day like most of us are, right? You had the fight and flight. Your, your kind of adrenals were only tapped so often, right? Because if you, if they were tapped for long, it probably meant you were about to get killed, you know, or eaten or. Right. But for the most part, we had, you know, spurts of extremities. But for the rest of our life, it was like, joyful, hopefully, or it was more communal or it was. There was something a little more passive about it, hopefully. But I'm finding that more and more, we're. We're just constantly in this state of overwhelm, and that's why so many people have tapped adrenals, right? How many adrenal issues? And so more and more, I'm thinking, like, you know, if we kind of stopped focusing on listening to other people around what diets we should be eating and more focused on, well, what does my body need and want? You know, really almost like, like Bill Schindler has an amazing quote that he, that he talks about. And as you guys have probably shared, you know, he, he wrote Eat Like a Human. He's been on your podcast, but he's a professor of archaeology, so he has a quote that says we are the only species in the world that looks to someone else to tell us what to eat. Well, there's like 7.9 million species like, that's. That. That is, like, crazy. That's literally crazy. Like, because we're. We're. We're a species. We're an animal, too. And we're the only one that has lost touch with what we should be eating. And so I'm more and more trying to spread the word of, like, well, how do we. How do I support people in getting back? And I know it's not by talking about protein, carbs, and fats. You know, I mean, like, getting granular about things and talking about organic or pastured. Like, I. It's just not. It's, if anything, that's going to divide people, because when we talk about those things, we're basically saying that healthy is for the wealthy. And what I want to do is, like, actually bridge the gap and try to show people, like, actually, if we just focus on our state, our state, like, the thing that we can control, so our being, like, in a sense, with mindful eating, so mindfully eating food is going to be more effective than the details of what that food is, in my judgment, these days. And it's absolutely something everyone can do. You can. We can all change our mindset when we're going to eat and actually imagine and believe wholeheartedly that the food we're about to put in our body is going to nurture and sustain and bring us health. Like, we can all put that energy towards that food. And we can all. When we're even cooking that food, we can put our energy towards what the. The. The outcome that we want from that food. So when we're cooking that food, we can bring that joy and that health and that love into the cooking of the food. And then we also have the power to go to farmer's markets to do it like you guys do, which is have your own farm. You then get to control how that food is grown, and you get to put that love and joy into the food that you're growing. And that energy exchange, to me, is what we really should be talking about and not just, like, the details of the characteristics of the food.

I love that so much. Chef James Barry. The. One of the things that we do when, when, before we eat is we pray. We have the intention, we have that gratitude before our food. But then when I learned about the work of Dr. Emoto and the.

The water.

The water, that's when it really struck a huge chord with me to realize that water, when touched with a seed, let's say a broccoli seed, before we were recording, we were talking about sprouting seeds, right? But like a seed can lay dormant for years and the moment that water touches it now the seed has this innate wisdom inside of it to know that it's ready to sprout. And that sprout with that life that's brought forth is one of the most nutrient dense things for us to eat. But it already has that recorded in there. And then I thought about, okay, so let's say we put that seed into the soil and we give it some water and we give it some sunlight. And being a farmer, being a gardener even, there's so many failures that can happen from season to season, from, from month to month, from year to year, from day to day, right? And so one of the things that I always do, we with the kids is, you know, when we plant something into the ground, we set that intention that whatever grows, we, we hope and pray that it grows and grows well to fullness and that it's completely perfect for us when it's ready to harvest. But like I hadn't realized that mindfulness that comes into play, I mean growing up I, we prayed about, you know, bless the hands that prepared the food. But that was something that we just recited almost right? It wasn't something that I truly understood until we started growing our own food to cooking our own food. We make our own products on the children have their own joy and jolie products and we make our own salves. And when we make the salves or when the children sell their milk products and they're creaming the milk and if they are having a bad day, I will, I know and like Tim will say, you know, I'll, I'll tell them, step away from the product, step away from the milk because I don't want you to put that energy to transfer into our food. Because we are making healing, nourishing yogurt for our family, but also to 10 other families around us. And so this food is meant to be nourishment and healing for our family and others around us that like you need to be mindful of that energy transfer. And like, I know it sounds so woo woo, but it just, you just telling that that aspect of like that intention and the mindfulness of eating is so true. And we should be talking about that because that just because we don't tangibly see it, we talk about grass fed grass finished. But now people are asking me, well, what if I can't afford grass fed grass finished bones? Should I even someone asked me, I haven't had bone broth in six months because I Haven't been able to afford it. To me, it's like you can have, if you even have bone broth, but you can put that mindfulness in there and you can say that this will be healing for me and my family.

To me, that's is and it, and we know this, I mean, and in a sense that's why it's not woo woo, because this is actually proven. It's the woo woo is the judgment, it's the stereotype. But the reality is, is that, okay, take that water, the water book. I mean, they had a toxic lake and the monks stood around it and prayed and they tested it before they prayed, they tested it after they prayed it, and it clearly could form crystals afterwards, whereas it could not before.

Right.

It's like any, anyone that learns a little bit about metaphysics, you know, there is space in everything. Even though our hand can, you know, tap on a desk and it feels solid, there's still space atomically under a microscope, you know, a very, you know, small microscope, right, Like a defined microscope, you could see that there's space in the atoms. And so energy flows throughout things. And so this idea that we, we have to follow this certain dogma of, of, I mean, if, if a lake can be toxic and then people pray over it and it's no longer toxic, then what does that say about food? Coming from CAFOs, it's the same concept and no, like, is it ideal? Well, no, but it's still nutritious. And I think that's where people get messed up on, is they think that there's a lot of confusion, a lot of misinformation out there. First of all, our cave, like when I look at a cafo, for example, I am more concerned about how the animals are being raised than the fact that they're not getting 100 grass. Because to me that's energy exchange. Right. So the, the way they're being raised is so unnatural. That's what concerns me because they're in a stressed out state. And we know that if anyone that hunts, know this is, knows this is that if the animal is being chased, the adrenaline goes into the meat and it tastes different. It's not as good. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's kind of more firm. It's not as tender, like it loses its quality. So any kind of inhumane way of raising an animal is going to affect that meat. Now. It's not. You can still prey on it, you can still hope for the different energy. And I do believe that will help. But we're talking that physically it's actually going to be. It's going to have adrenaline, it's going to have properties in it that are going to change how it cooks, the texture of it, things like that. So there's certain things you can't mess with. Like if you overcook meat, you could pray all you want, it's still charred. You know what I'm saying? Like, you, you can't change the, the, the outside properties of something, the structure of something. Oh, I'm sorry. Because obviously they're saying that with water you can. What I mean, though, is the texture of that. Right. But what I'm like, that energy saying that I think we're talking about is that it's also how you receive something. And if I'm in a stressed out state, then I'm probably not going to be able to assimilate those nutrients that I am eating. Whether they're from a cave, you know, from corn and soy fed cows or grass fed cows, it won't matter. And I used to always tell people when I was private chefing for them, I was like, look, if your body is not, like, if you're not digesting your food properly, if you're not making sure that your body is working optimally, then it doesn't matter what I give you. I could give you the best, most, highest, most expensive food in the world, but if you're not digesting it properly, like, it doesn't matter.

Yeah. Chef James, we know firsthand. Sophie's always in the garden, but I'm out tending to the livestock. And the energy just in dealing with the animals every day, from when I first started, I was a lot more panicked and I would want things done right away. I just, you know, want it done right away. And the animal can feel my anger, my energy of trying to rush them into the process. And then through it, they end up going in circles, round and around, just further frustrating me versus if I just took my time and walked, you know, slowly, patiently behind them and just kind of coax them through, then they'll actually do something. You know, they'll actually listen to me. And to your point, we harvest a lot of our own animals. And I've noticed myself when I first started, the way that I harvested a turkey, because a turkey is way larger than a chicken and the chickens I can process easily and the meat tastes great and it's fine. But with the turkey, I was wondering why, after I processed the turkey, it was just rock hard, because it got all tensed up because I was, I was traumatized. I'm sure the turkey was traumatized by it. And it's just. And anyone who was watching probably traumatized, but just I was like chasing after the turkey and it was just, it was scary. And I should have learned from my elders out here, you know, and use like a feed sack or something just to kind of calm it and they keep it in one place and. But to your point, the quality of the meat afterwards, it just showed after. And it was just a shame because it's like, I want to be able to honor the animal. I want to be able. Because we fed the animal the best, you know, we knew, we knew we raise the animal with, you know, all the right intentions, but if we don't go all the way full circle and see through it to the end, you know, and properly dispatch the animal, then it's like all for naught. And that was a very like, costly lesson for me. And then something I didn't want to ever repeat. So I'm glad that you mentioned that.

But I love that that's what you learned, right? I mean, we, we need contrast. We need it. If we don't have contrast, then we don't know how to change. We don't know what to change. And to me, what you experience, literally experienced, is what most people out there are lacking, which is, which is just the experience, the hands on, kind of one on one relationship with their food. And that's why so many people don't know what to eat or how to eat. I'm more and more just like, like I did was recently at this conference called Hack your health. Sophie was there with me, of course, and I did a talk though, on basically how flavor can reconnect us to our ancestral knowledge of what we should be eating. And I, I basically talk about it from the standpoint of like, look. So Homo sapien is basically this similar body type we've had for all these years. And, and it hasn't changed that much, you know, back then. And yet obviously our food sources have changed. But what we did very differently then is like we were using like. So I imagine like back in the day, Homo sapien in a forest, they hear something drop, right? So first it starts with our hearing and they turn, then they're using their eyes. They see a tree. They see, you know, where they look to where something dropped. They now see something hanging in that tree. They walk closer to it, they, they get it, they can now see even closer. And they see it's this plump Kind of colorful thing. They don't know what it is yet, but then they touch it and they have it in their hand. They can feel the plumpness and there's, there's clearly something inside. It's kind of juicy, it seems, right. Then they take a bite. As they bring it closer to their nose, they're smelling and these flavors are coming into their, that this is all communication that's happening neurologically, right? And so through smelling it, they're starting to get this communication of like, oh, it smells sweet. It smells like something I might be able to eat maybe, right? They take a bite. Now juices are running down their chin and they're, they're chewing. And through the mastication, the pulp of whatever they just ate is now going into their mouth and the flavors are now entering and touching their taste buds and whatnot. And they're deepening, right? Because when we actually start chewing things, the flavor, more flavor comes out and then they go to swallow it and it's like there's this whole like physical response to it where you almost feel like all your cells are awakening and coming alive to the nutrition that this product is giving you. Like this is how our body was formed. Flavor in nature equaled nutrition. So this is what our body knows. And it informs on this process of using your eyes, your ears, your hands, your, your, your mouth, your, your sense of taste. Like all these sensoral character, you know, pieces that we have of, that are part of the human body are informing our, our brain and our nervous system of whether we should eat something or not. And what's throwing us off are these ultra processed foods that have tons of flavor, very manufactured flavor, but no nutrition. And so when I think about, well, okay, if we were to start focusing, creating our own food pyramid, how I would create it. And this food pyramid I truly believe is applicable to everyone. It's doable for every person. No matter what you earn in a year, what your salary is, doesn't matter. Anyone could follow this food. The pyramid I'm about to share and will not only feel better, but you'll just thrive. You'll absolutely thrive. And it's what I, how I would structure it is the very top of the pyramid would be just focus on real flavors, like flavors that are found in nature. So get rid of things that are synthetic flavors and that could be artificial or natural. That doesn't mean anything, right? It's like those are fabricated flavors. So really try to find foods that have flavors that are actually found in nature. So that's the top of the pyramid. Then right below it in the center of the pyramid it is now just choose nutrient dense foods. So choose real foods, foods that are ingredients versus have ingredients right, Very simple, just, just real food. And then below that as the kind of like, like the, the grounding factor to that entire pyramid is just then consciously eat. Like just be mindful when you're eating that food. Slow down like we talked about. Do a prayer, do take a breath, do something, say grace, something to get you to slow down when you go to eat. Do things like every time you eat, put your fork or your spoon down, let yourself chew what's in your mouth first, then go back. And by doing that, you're actually now giving your body that time. A, your body will start recognize the food it's eating and B, you're giving your body the time and the communication to happen so that you can recognize when you're full or not. And it's so fascinating because our heads will start to play with us. And I'll share even this morning, like I made this smoothie and you know, you, you make the smoothie and you don't know exactly am I going to get exactly to the cup or am I the glass or am I going to, going to go over the glass? But you just make what you make, right? And I poured it into the glass and I still had more. And I went to drink from the glass and I probably drank maybe about 3/4 of the glass and my body felt full. But I psychologically looked at the rest of the blender and I was like, oh man, I still have more. I think I need to finish this. And I was like, well that's interesting, right? Because I poured it into a very big glass because I blended more than I should have or whatever. Like psychologically I was literally telling myself, oh no, you got to keep going, even though your body is telling you you're full. And I was like, no, you guess what, I'm going to go ahead and stop. And so it's stuff like that. Like you, you have to kind of realize that your, your mind is against you. Because our mind is being affected by the marketing out there. Our mind is affected by how we were socialized, how we were raised, the glasses we chose, the portions we normally get, like, like the size of the plates we've chose. Like all these things are psychologically preying on us. But the body is separate from that. The body will not lie to you. The body is your companion in this lifetime and it will never leave you until, unless you Die, right? That's the only time it leaves you. But it will never leave you while you're living. And it will always tell you what's working and not working. You just have to listen.

We.

We all just have to listen to it, but we cannot listen to it unless we slow down.

That brings it back to what you were talking about with instincts from our 20s. I remember 20s, we. Personally, I was totally prone to listening to all the food marketing. 30s, I got a little bit smarter when I had kids. 40s, I wrote the cookbook. When I'm just like, screw all of the rules, and I'm just going to lean into the instincts. But to that point, James, I had a very. I. As a parent and as a mom who grew up as, you know, an immigrant family, I remember I have, like, so much trauma over being in trouble, just sitting there and finishing my fish and my rice in my bowl, and my parents would just make me sit there until I finish it. And, you know, now when I think about all the things that we've learned about our instincts, right? And how we're raising our kids, I now have to think about how I'm parenting them. But it takes that time to make sure that I can enable them and empower them to lean into their conscious eating. If they're telling me that they're full, then that's it. I'm gonna have to be okay with waste. And it's a little bit better that we have a farm now. We can feed it to the dogs or the chickens. But I try to be really mindful of this because I want them to know that I do. I. I also have the same issue of, you know, if I made a whole cup of coffee and I'm full, do I drink the whole thing? Because I brewed the whole cup, you know, and all these. All these things that I've had to slow down to really think about, too. But again, it's. It's me being in my 40s now and having to have to realize that. That connection with my body that no one taught us.

Well, it. Well, yeah, no one did teach us because we've all. We're also susceptible to the marketing. You know, it's like. And. And we're all, you know. You only know what you know, right? And so then when, you know, Time magazine and I remember this happened, I think it was Time or one of the major magazines came out and I think the 80s, and they were like, wheat bread is healthier than white bread. And my mom was like, okay. And then we no longer got wonder bread. Now we got some kind of wheat bread. It was like, you know, we're all so susceptible to these things, but ultimately I, I think if we just try to, like, if it takes you 30 years to be kind of like 30 or 40 years to basically shut down and like, only know what everyone's telling you and no longer kind of be your own. What? You know, kind of. No, no, you, like, if you're not cognizant of what your own body needs and you're constantly looking outside yourself for 30 years, then you can't expect to listen to this podcast and to go like, oh, I really like what he's saying. Tomorrow I'm going to start being more, more conscious about what I eat. And then you're just. Don't expect that you're just going to arrive, right? It's like, it's a process. It's a process to, to disconnect, and it's a process to reconnect. And it takes time and it, but it needs to start somewhere. And I think that anyone listening that's like, I want to try this. I would absolutely say, like, start with just taking a breath before you eat. Like, start with those little things or like when you wake up in the morning, just drink a glass of water. You know, like, there's little things you can do to start to slow down and you can even slow down by your food choices. Like, so something that people don't realize is, like, most of us stick with the same cuts of meat, with the same kind of basic principles of our meals, but if we actually just try something different, so we change the structure of the plate a little bit. So let's just say if you're someone who spoons rice onto the plate, well, instead of spooning the rice on the plate and kind of having this kind of mound or whatever, this kind of broken mound, like, use your half cup measuring cup and form the rice into the cup, right? And then let that structure be on the plate and I promise you you'll eat it slower. Because now your brain has to think about what it is and it re kind of realigned to like, oh, what's this? And you just kind of end up taking it slower. Same thing with meats. If you're typically someone who eats like a boneless steak, try eating a bone in steak. It's gonna slow you down. Try different cuts of meat. You know, if you're typically a rib eye person, then try like a totally different cut that requires that you slow cook it or you know, a brisket or something like that. It's gonna. Anything that changes, a pattern is gonna automatically slow you down because your brain's gonna be like, what is this? What am I? I know it's beef, but this isn't what you normally eat. You know what I mean? So there's little things you can do to just slow down and be more mindful of what you're doing. And it's got huge benefits. Like, not only will you digest your food better, you'll probably not eat as much, which goes to what you were saying. Like, you can actually take, like, something I more and more try to do is kind of practice that European way of having smaller portions. Like, instead of that first plate being the same for everybody, I actually, everyone gets a smaller portion. So that way, if. Then you don't have the waste, hopefully, right? But then if you're still hungry, you just get more. And you get more based on what you think you can eat versus that first plate of just assuming, like, you're gonna go for gold, right? It's like going smaller. There's nothing wrong. It's okay to have two plates versus one. You know, I mean, just. But that's sometimes even psychological, particularly for women, right? They think, like, oh, if I have a second plate, you know, they're. They're conditioned, men or women, but we're conditioned. I think if I go back for seconds, that I'm being gluttonous or something like that, you know, so. So you're constantly fighting. Socialize, you know, socializations. You're constantly fighting the marketing. But that's okay. It's okay. We're human, and we're living in the world we're living in. And it's like, it's not about fighting that. It's just about picking and choosing where you can get control over the things that matter to you.

Chef James, what you just said, it was just. For me, it was earth shattering because it really resonated with me. Well, I, I.

What you just.

What you started off with was funny, because I'm like, it wasn't wonder bread, a wheat bread. It was wonder bread to iron kids, bread to wheat bread, But. But everything else, like portion control, she'll go. We'll go. If we go out to eat or something like that, which is very rarely, but she'll be like, honey, you need to try to just. Just eat half of that and then put the other half away. For what? What are we putting the other half away for? Or the sandwich is going to be soggy. That other half later on and, and what you were just telling, like, these are practical tips that are like real life. You know, the bone in steak that, like, I do. I always like to eat a ribeye. But you're right, because I don't like to eat with the bone because I don't want to have.

Because it slows you down.

Well, I don't have to maneuver it.

Slow down your food.

Well, maybe you don't want to see me hold the bone up and try to eat. Okay, but.

But even then, it would slow you down even then because you're just, you have to like.

Yeah, that's true. But it begs the question, though. So these are like, great practical tips that, you know, people can take, like taking a breath, slowing down what we're eating, or taking a smaller portion, smaller plate. But what about conventional food versus organic food for those that are like, may not have the budget? They say it's only for the wealthy. What do you say to that?

Well, it's the same thing like with fish, right, when, when it came out about the mercury and the fish. Everyone's like, I can't eat fish. But the benefits of fish far outweigh that. The, you know, for you, you're gonna have to eat sardines and like, like, you're gonna have to eat swordfish every single day to have true mercury poison. And the truth is, is if you have really high mercury, you might be too. You know, I mean, it's like, like, like you don't want to throw out, just like your friend who didn't do the bone broth. It's like you don't want to throw out these very therapeutic, very healthy foods just because of this idea of what you're afraid, you know, out of fear or something like that. I'm, I'm particularly if it's unfounded fear, right? It's like you don't actually know you're going to get mercury poison if you eat too much. It's like you don't know. And you can always choose smaller fish. There's always things you can do. But, but you know, what's interesting is like Rob Wolf and, and Diane, I'm forgetting her last name, but Diane is her first name. They wrote a book called Sacred Cow, and in that book they talk about how there have been studies done that show that conventional. The nutrition in the conventional cows is actually similar to grass fed. Now, I have heard other studies done where they said, no, no, no, it's absolutely not true that grass fed is way more nutritious but here's the deal. It kind of goes back to what I said earlier, which is like, doesn't matter because if you're not receiving that food, well, if you're in a stressed out state, if your digestive system is not working properly, if your elimination pathways are not working properly, you're going to receive that food the way you're going to receive. It doesn't matter what the quality of the food is. It matters more about your state. It's kind of like that idea of like, you know, when you're raising kids or you're dealing with anyone's, you're dealing with like a conflict. I'm sure you've heard this before. People are like, well, isn't that more common on you? Like, like where the comment is more about like, why don't you just work on yourself? And then the issue that you're having with the other person will kind of shift because you're shifting. Like you got to start with the, as Michael Jackson saying, you know, the man or the person in the mirror, right? It's like we got to start there. And I, and I really do believe that instead of worrying about whether it's organic, grass fed, conventional, let's first get the piece. And particularly if it stresses you out to purchase grass. 100 grass said because of your, because of your, your sal. You know, how much you have. Like let's, we don't want that. You don't want more stress when you're eating food, you want less stress. So I would say let's put that as the top priority is like, how do we make our lives less stressful? And if it means buying, like, look, the, the bigger issue for people that let's say are concerned about their pocketbooks, the bigger issue is that many of them are spending their money on ultra processed foods. That's really the bigger issue. Like whether you buy conventional meat or 100 grass fed is very, very like 2% problem. Like the majority of people are spending what they do have on the Coca Colas, on the Oreos, on the bags of chips. And that's the stuff. I'm like, let's worry more about that. Let's get those ultra processed foods out and then let's see how much money you have. And even then, if it stresses you out to buy that $25 pound, you know, ribeye, which it should because that's crazy expensive for a ribeye, right? Then don't worry about that and just focus on joy and focus on, you know, relaxing when you eat. Laughing. Focus on the people you're around as you eat and focus on them and the joy that those people bring you and focus on feeling good as you eat it. That, you know, put on some nice music, maybe a great podcast. What you know, you do whatever it takes for you to shift into that joyful state. And I promise you that what you eat, it will not matter. Everything going in your mouth will taste great and be, and be good for you.

I love that. I love that so much. And one of the things too is I know one of the tips that I like to give is try something to stretch out whatever that is. And this is just the way that I had to grow up with my family being immigrant family. We had to take a whole broiler chicken that my mom would buy from an Asian farmer and she would make it into four different dishes. And those dishes are now in the cookbook. And I talk about that. One of the feedback that I got from a, a client was I said, you know, your brisket, for example, that it's pretty costly. Now, typically we use it in our pho. And I had a comment from someone saying that brisket is for my husband's barbecue. Like he would kill me if I used it for anything else. And I said, well, try it. It could just be a portion of it. You don't have to use the whole slab of the brisket. Brisket, but take little portions of it. So she did, she made pho and thinly sliced the brisket. So you can actually save more money by cooking differently. Stretching it out. I know typically in like the American culture, we tend to make like one whole broiler chicken into a rotisserie chicken and that's like the one meal. But in our culture we've just had to out of necessity stretch out the, the beef or the chicken, whatever the protein is, just because that's just, you know, a lot of it is, is made with other fermented veggies or we use like sweet potato noodles or other carbs. But you can definitely do it without carbs. We do it with broth, but you stretch out the meat, stretch out your protein if you don't want to buy conventional meat. I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said though it is more of the intention, the joy, the people that you surround yourself and eat with. But I also get a lot of feedback from people who are just die hard, you know, gotta stick with the grass fed, grass finish, organic, clean. But you're gonna stress yourself out. So if you're gonna stick with that then learn how to stretch out your budget, learn how to stretch out the protein into multiple dishes.

Totally. And well, and there's. So here's some tips on that. So you mentioned like thinly slicing. So one of the ways to thinly slice meat is to freeze it, right? You got, you gotta have it cut it when it's frozen or slightly defrosted, but still very much firmer than it is when it's defrosted. The other thing, and I talked about this actually at that conference and I talk a lot about this on podcasts. It's like you know, organ meats. Like so right now when we slaughter an animal, about 50 of that animal is, is, is muscle, right. But the other 50% is all the awful and you know, the, the bone marrow and you know the parts of the animal that usually go to other industry and, or get wasted. And so it's, it's always interesting because to me this is the definition of madness. So we, we don't eat the whole animal. Most people I know, those farmers that are listening are like, oh no, we eat the whole animal. But that's, you guys are the rarity, right? But most people are not eating the whole animal. They're just eating muscle. And then yet they're turning around and they're investing in supplements to supplement the vitamins and minerals they're not getting from their food. And I'm like, well, so the most nutrient dense parts of the animal are getting thrown out basically. And all we have to do is simply start eating that animal. So that's one. So if we just eat the whole animal, you'll find that you're spending less money elsewhere. Two is that same grass fed 100 grass a cow where that ribeye is $25. Well, that cow has a tongue, that cow has a heart. And they're not 25 a pound. They're like seven or eight, sometimes six, sometimes four. Right. Like they vary in how much they cost. And I guarantee you just start eating like more tongue or more heart or which are two of the more muscle based organs. You know, they're closest to muscle meat. But like you start doing stuff like that and your, your bill will go down because it's not as expensive as the other cuts, but yet it's the same high quality. So there's, there's definitely, you know, and then you guys have already talked about like meat shares are a really great way to kind of lower the cost. You can go in with other families, you can buy a quarter cow, you can, there's so many options you can do around that. And absolutely make sure that when you're getting those, those meat shares, that they're grinding some of those organs with the meat. When they give you their ground meats, like, like, don't let any of it go to waste because that's, that's money. That's money left on the table.

So how did you get the idea for pluck?

You know, it's a mix of, well, as I mentioned before, the kids, like, so wanting to get, you know, the nutrient dense foods into their diet, but do it effortlessly. Because I feel like as parents, we're already working hard enough. Like, I don't want to have to work, you know, with picky eaters. And like, in our household, we make one, one meal. Like, we don't do the whole two, three meals, they eat what they, they get kind of thing. So it's primarily that. And it's also kind of my sensibilities as chef. I've always kind of looked at things from outside the box. Like, I'm always like. Like, even when I make ice cream, for example. So when I make ice cream, and, and this is this. If anyone wants to follow this, you. You'll end up making some of the best ice cream ever had. But so basically what I, what I realized is that when I make fat, you know, cream, cow's cream and cow and cow milk ice cream, it leaves a coat on my tongue, you know, fat coat. And I just didn't like that texture. I didn't like that feeling. And so I was like, well, let me think about this. And I was like, well, goat milk is a lot less fatty and it's a lot cleaner to digest. So I was like, okay, what if I use goat milk? But it's hard to find goat cream. So I was like, what if I keep the cow cream? So I basically mix species. I did goat milk with cow's cream, and then I followed, you know, the ice cream recipe, the exact same as you would find it. You know, just pick any recipe, but just switch out the, the cow's milk for goat milk. And it creates this very light ice cream that's easily digestible, and it's so good. But that's how I think. I, I don't think. I'm not a puritan around food. Like, I really just think about, like when I was thinking about organ meats, like, how do I get organ meats into people's diets? Well, there's, there's three major hurdles. It's like that taste that people Associate with it. It's the, the sourcing. A lot of people don't even know where to source it or how, but even more importantly, they don't know how to cook it. And so it's. And which is also a texture thing, right? So I was like, well, how do I get over those hurdles? And, and really it came to me when I was thinking about, well, what's in a pate? So we have the organs that go into a pate, but then we're also adding onions, we're adding different herbs, spices. Well, wait a second, there's herbs and spices that are already dried. They're already shelf stable. Now I just have to figure out how to have shelf stable, like organs. Oh wait, we already have those. It's the freeze dried powdered organ meats that are in capsules. So I was like, well, what if I just combine these two very shelf stable products together? And then of course that had its own process of finding, you know, what percentage of the organ meats made it with the spices, made it so that you couldn't taste it, it didn't change the texture, you know, all that kind of stuff. And so as, as I finessed it, I was like, wait a second, I have a shel organ based product that anyone can use. You can sprinkle, like even kids, like, because that's one of the biggest complaints with capsules is a lot of kids can't swallow the capsules. It's like. But you can absolutely season anyone's food, from popcorn to toast to meat to fish. I mean literally put on everything. And now every time, pizza, like every time we use it, the kids are getting that microdosing the organ meats. And I'll just kind of share this piece since I'm on this topic too. But the other kind of thing that then came out when I created this was like, well, people are like, well, but how much am I really getting? And I was like, well, that's an interesting question and that's a very American question. Because in America it's all like, go big or go home, right? It's all like about work hard, play hard. You know, this is very kind of American mentality of like extremities. But the reality is, is the body doesn't really work like that. The body, when we get extreme, when we get too much of something, the body immediately evacuates it. Like, that's why if you get too much protein, you have to pee. Your body just wants to get rid of things that when you're in extremities and while we may think that we, we thrive on extremity, we actually don't like usually what it does is just maxes us out, overwhelms us, it burns us out. Right. Anyone that lives in extremities cannot live there very long. But when you, when you think about what is the thing that moves our health the most, it's the things that are daily habits and what it, what is a daily habit? Well, a daily habit is something that doesn't dominate our life. That's not extreme, that's simple and easy and something that we could do in micro amounts. So like brushing our teeth, we don't brush our teeth for an hour, we brush our teeth for two minutes. Right. So these micro dosing of these, these daily habits is absolutely the thing that we can, we can sustain in our lives. That our bodies can actually assimilate and actually use maximum like Maxim, like efficiently use. Right. And so I'm like, we need to change our thinking on this. Because if I'm, if, if I'm, let's say using Lowry's All Purpose seasoning on my food. Well, when I use Lowry's, I'm getting an extreme amount of salt because most seasonings are mostly salt that have some seasoning in them and they do that because salt's cheap and they're trying to maximize their profit. Right. Well, and then they also have Lowry's has some sugar in it, it has some anti caking agents and it also has seed oils. So right away you're eat, you're, you're using something to flavor your food that is extremely salty and also might bring you flavor. But it's, it's also probably hindering your health because it's got things in it that are not good for you. So just by switching you're now getting micro amounts of organ meats that are completely like Mother Nature's multivitamin. There's, we're not adding anything to them, we're not adulterating them. They are freeze dried and powdered. That's it. There's no flow agents, nothing. Right. So this is truly Mother Nature's multivitamin. And then we're mixing it with organic spices and herbs. We're using Redmond real salt. So we're using these very like nutrient dense natural flavors found in nature. Right. And like you're now getting something you weren't before. And so I'm always just kind of, I'm always kind of blown both blown away that I created this, that I was the first to do. It. I'm kind of. I'm constantly blown away by that, and I do not take that for granted. And then I'm also really blown away by how. How much feedback we're getting from people saying how it's helping them and how much they're benefiting from it and how much their kids love it. And it's just. It's just amazing because that's truly why I do what I do. It's like why I wanted to become a chef is because I wanted to help people with their health. That's why I left Tom Cruise. Right. It's like I wanted to help more people. And so. So I'm, you know, I'm. I will always be the one that's just blown away that I'll see people buying pluck and I'm like, I don't know who that is. That's amazing. You know, I mean, like, that it's not a family member. It's like, not someone from my past. And I'm sure you're going through that as well with your cookbook and with your kids products. It's like, it's like, oh, my gosh, it's a non family member, and I don't know who they are.

The irony is that the family members aren't the ones that purchase either.

You're right. They're the ones that, yeah. Don't usually, you know, like unconditionally support. Which is absurd. Right. It's so funny.

But, yeah, we. We love your seasoning.

We do. It's a saving grace because I. It's really hard for me to eat beef liver, and I know it's the most nutrient dense part of the animal, but thanks to you, I do love beef tongue. I've. I've had how you prepared it. It's really good. And the beef heart, which is so huge, but it tastes just like meat. But beef liver is so difficult for me to eat. And thankfully, I love using pluck.

We.

We put it on their popcorn. And I was just laughing when you said, go big or go home, because I. I did try at the very beginning. Just put a whole bunch of it. I'm like, I'm just gonna make up for all the liver I'm not eating and just, oh, my gosh, that was a mistake. Putting too much of it. But just a little bit goes a long way.

You know, it's.

It's.

It's like, you don't want to burn out. And. And when we go extremes, we like, to me, that's. That's the, the kind of funniness of health, right, is that, you know, like, like we talked about. I've been in this health business for 20 years. I literally, I feel like I've seen every trend come and go. But the one thing that doesn't change is just real food. So real food is the constant and if we could just kind of make that the, that the benchmark, like just make it real food. Your body will tell you if the real food portions and the sizes and the, the amounts that you're doing, that if, whether that's right or wrong, your body will inform you of that. But your, your mind has to make the decision just to buy real food. And obviously you can't really do that if you're eating out because most restaurants there, you know, they're trying to make money. And the way to make money is to have cheap ingredients. A lot of them purchase from places like Restaurant Depot where the food is already pre made and it has lots of additives and shelf stabilizers and just bad stuff in it. And so it's pretty hard to be healthy if you're eating out. Now I will say though that if anyone, you know, who has a farm, because most like you, like you guys probably, you know, have lots of beef livers left over and things like that so you could make your own pluck, you know. And, and I'll tell you, like, what you need really is it helps to have a freeze dryer because if you, you can dehydrate it but you really need it to have very little moisture and the freeze dryer will, will remove more moisture. And also the texture is a bit better when you freeze dry it because the dehydrated one, it becomes a little tougher. But if you have a freeze dryer, you freeze dry the organs you want to use. You could definitely just start with Liverpool and then you just want to powder that. And you can powder, you know, once it's freeze dried, you can powder it in like a cuisine art. You don't need anything complicated. And then you take that powder and then you add whatever seasonings you want. And what I typically do is I follow the ratio of like you, you start with about 10% and then go up from there and see what your palette likes. So start with, let's just say if you're doing, you know, like, I guess I would start with like a tablespoon of organ meat to maybe a half a cup of seasonings and then I would just see how it goes from there. Like then keep going up a teaspoon at a time, and you'll find that you kind of have to stay somewhere between like 15 and 20%. Like if you go too much, too much further than even 17, 18, you'll start to taste the organs in the seasoning. Now if you don't mind that taste, then great, you should go, go up to 20%. But if, if you're someone who's sensitive to that, then you just pull it back and let, let the seasonings be the dominant flavor and let the organs just, you know, kind of provide this like low level depth. Because what organ meats provide is an umami and a depth. And so it just, it just kind of, you have a little bit of a taste, but it won't be too strong if you keep that percentage down. But what you'll get is that, and this is what we find with pluck at least, is that when people add it to their food, they actually say, my food tastes better. And it's because the umami is a unique flavor and it's brightening the other flavors and then it also brings a depth to that food that wasn't there before.

And that's what I love about pluck seasoning so much and is that I, you know, we, we rarely use any other seasoning because of the umami flavors. And, and especially with Asian cooking, that's why people love Asian food, is because of the natural umami in our, in our flavorings. But a lot of the seasonings out there, Lawry's included, but other ones use what msg, which is chemically made in a lab or, or they, they use other things like yeast extract and they hide.

It's usually a way to hide MSG too. Yeah, right.

And they hide these things and it's, you know, it's just been like, that's why we wrote the cookbook was just so that, you know, how do we recreate these flavors without having to use anything that's chemically processed?

When we talk about, you know, extremities. Right. Well, most people's palates are blown out, so a lot of people don't realize this. So like in the US we skew towards salty sweet. Most of our ultra processed foods are all skewed in that. If like I look at food as color, right? So flavors are colors, right? So let's say salty sweet is blue and red. So all our flu. Our foods are blue and red. But if you want to incorporate, you know, the yellows and the greens and the purples, like, you gotta explore the sour, this, the bitter and the umami, you got to explore those. And you don't have to go all in. You just have to, first of all, pull back on how. How many salty things you're eating or how many sweet things you're eating, and then start to slowly introduce those other flavors. And you can even do them, like simply adding a little kraut juice, you know, cultured vegetable juice to product. Like, you don't have to go crazy. And even GAPS talks about this a lot is they just say when you're first introducing it to a child, you just do the juice and you only add a little bit, and you let that palate start to expand and recalibrate. Because, you know, anyone, I think everyone can identify with this. Like, if you. If you buy a bag of chips in the grocery store, you really taste. And it has to be a flavored bag. You really only taste the first three chips. Every chip thereafter, you're just chasing the crunch. You don't taste the flavor anymore because you're. You're. It's so extreme, the flavors, that your taste buds are blown out. They can't handle more flavor. And so it's so blown out that you're now just chasing the texture, the. The crunch. And. And then, of course, you're not getting any nutrition, so your body doesn't know when to stop. So that's why we finished the whole bag. Right? But yeah, if. If we just kind of like pull out these foods of our diet. Like when I had that meal delivery service in la, we had a program that was called the Sugar Control Detox. And what it is, is that we would. For two weeks, we would pull out certain foods. It was really like an elimination diet. So we pulled out sugars. We pulled out anything that was really high in sugar. So, like, you could have fruit, but you could only have raspberries, blueberries, and blackberries. You couldn't have strawberries or anything else because it was all too sweet. We pulled out alcohol, we pulled out dairy. We pulled out all the common allergens, wheat, dairy, and soy. We. We pulled out anything that converted into sugar in your blood too fast, like some of these simple starches, right? These simple carbs. So we pulled those out, like potatoes, pastas, rice. We pulled all that stuff out, and we only gave them like. Like sweet potatoes or. Or like spaghetti swash, like things that are more resistant. Starches, parsnips, what else? Like rutabaga. You know, like, we did things like that. And then we gave them good, healthy fat, like ghee. We wouldn't do butter since I had dairy. But we would do ghee. We would do coconut oil, we'd do animal fats, and then we would give them animal protein or fish protein or poultry protein. Right? So we would do any of those. And in two weeks, the person's palate completely recalibrated so that they could now taste the sweetness of a strawberry, for example. Like, so when they ate their first strawberry, they actually tasted how sweet it naturally is. When they had a glass of wine, they tasted how sweet that wine is and how they couldn't even finish a whole glass in two weeks. So that's how fast. Our body is so miraculous. Our body is willing to change, and we'll go with what we do, but we have to. We have to give it space, and we have to remove these stimulants, these things that are extremities in our diets out, and kind of simplify it for a little bit. And then you get to taste things for what they really are. And I promise you, it's hard to go back because you're, You're, You're. You're like, oh, I don't need to have that cookie anymore, because the strawberry is plenty sweet enough. Like, you know, I mean, so suddenly you're more attracted to this real food.

Yeah, it's very interesting. We had to eat out with some family here locally, and we're talking, like, East Tennessee, so it's not all that great, the choices that we have. And we tried to keep it clean. I just said some steak. And then there was an item on the menu as a side to steamed asparagus. And I thought that was pretty clean. I can't remember where we ate. Was it Longhorn?

Lone Star.

Lone Star Steakhouse. And I was like, I already struggling with going in there anyway, so here we are. I ate it, and I really thought that I could just eat this asparagus. It was one of the most saltiest things I've ever had. I had to dip it into the ice water that we had just to rinse off the seasoning. And it still was very salty on the inside. And I try not to say anything because I look around and everybody seems to be having a grand old time. I mean, the restaurant is full, packed full of people. But at the very end, my mom was like, you need to say something. And I'm like, well, everybody else seems to be eating here just fine. It's obviously us because we don't eat out anymore. But I gave the feedback at the end to the waitress And I told her, I said, you know, you'll. You'll save a lot more money not using all this seasoning, all this salt. It's not clean salt. It's not real salt either. It's. I'm sure it's just table white salt. So. And I said, like, you're contributing to a lot of the heart disease that a lot of the people here must have. And she said, you know, when I first started here, I tasted it too, and. And it was way heavy on the seasonings is what she called it. She said it was seasonings. But, you know, it's.

It's.

It's hard because she said everybody seems to be fine with it. And she thought she was crazy as well to even bring it up. But she says, I shop at the farmer's market. I try to eat clean. So everybody else who's used to eating out or eating processed foods, you're right, their taste buds are completely blown out. I just didn't realize it was a thing. But it is going to contribute to a lot of health problems.

Well, I'll give. I'll give two examples. So. Growing up, I grew up on Skippy Peanut butter. And anyone that knows Skippy's ingredients is. It's basically a candy bar in a. In a butter form, you know, in a whipped form, basically. It's got lots of sugar, it's got hydrogenated oils, and. But I didn't know any different. Like, that's the. That's what I thought peanut butter was. And then I remember I was at a friend's house who had Laurel Shredders peanut butter. And that one is just peanuts and salt. And it even separated. The oils of the peanut would separate from it. And I was like, what's that? You know, And I looked at him like that. That's weird. You know, and they mix it together, the oil and the peanuts. And then I tried. I'm like, oh, that's so gross. And little did I know that actually that's what peanut butter is, right? And so the more I would then go over to the house and I would try it, I started to realize and started to taste it differently. And as I pulled Skippy out on my diet or my. My own, got the other one, I then really started. I'm like, oh, here's. This is what peanuts taste like. This is what peanut butter really is, right? And. And it was only, though, through me pulling out of the other one and really allowing that new kind of, like, simpler flavor to be the go to, it still took, like a week or something for me to finally taste it. But I had to be willing to go there. Like, you have to first acknowledge like, like that the asparagus is too salty. Like, if you can't acknowledge that or even be willing to then try the asparagus without all that salt, then you'll, you're not going to be allowed to. You're not allowing yourself to change the taste buds because they don't. It's not like you just like anyone that's eating the ultra processed foods that then just suddenly jumps to the natural. They'll think the natural food is gross. It's the same thing like someone who's drinking soda all the time when they taste water, water tastes gross. Right? But water is what we should be drinking. So as you pull back from the juices, from this, from the sodas, and you start to just drink water, you start to realize, oh no, this is actually what my body craves. And the other stuff is crazy sweet and should be minimalized in my diet. But I'll share this story. When I was in LA many years ago, I was hired to help develop the menu for this restaurant concept. And the women that were going to be opening the restaurant, they, how we worked together was they first, they wanted to show me like the, the pinnacle of what I needed to do. Like, so, like, let's just say they wanted to have a roasted potato on their menu. Well, they first had to show me what is their favorite roast potato in la, so that I could either match it or do better.

Wow.

So they took me and we went all over LA eating their favorites of all these different things. It was really quite fun.

Awesome.

But I remember we went to this, this Thai restaurant in Long beach that had these roasted potatoes. And they were like, these are the most amazing roast potatoes. Wait till you try them. We open the door to this restaurant and I, and I just hit with this whiff of that, this bitter kind of sour oil smell of burnt oil and just like, you know, like bad fried oil. And I immediately said, like, in my mind I'm like, oh, this is not going to be good. There is no way this is going to be good. And I, but I sat down and I was respectful and whatnot. And, and they ordered the potatoes and they served. And the potatoes tasted just like that oil that I smelled in the air. They were, they were bitter, they were overly salty. They were just. There was something rancid about it in my, in my taste buds. And they taste. And they're like, what do you think? Isn't it amazing? And I was like, actually, I think it's horrible. And they're like, what? And I explained to them, I'm like, you, you just can't taste it because you, your taste buds are so blown out like, or you're so used to this that you don't know what the. A real fried potato can taste like. You know, one that's cooked in duck fat, for example, like, like they don't know what that, that really can taste like. And so I said, here's the thing. Let me cook for you for two weeks and then we'll come back. And I did that. So we cooked the way I, they did things the way I did them, freshly made everything. And we went back and they, well, I didn't go with them when they went back. They went back on their own and they reported back to me. They said, you're right, it's disgusting. And they're like, we couldn't taste it.

It's crazy. I mean, I was just in California last week after our time at Hack your health. And my mom and the children and I, we just went to my old stomping grounds, ate at our favorite restaurants, and I kid you not, nothing tastes good anymore, yet people are waiting out the door. All these, all these nice restaurants that we used to like. So people are eating there and yet nothing tastes good anymore. And I'm starting to think that it's us. And what you're saying is our taste buds have just, just come back because we can't eat out where we are and we are raising our own food. The quality is much better. But I just never, you know, it's hard for us to put two and two together because these are places that I, I mean, it's original owners from back when I lived in SAN Jose, what, 30, 40 years ago, you know, and nothing tastes good.

But it could be like you said, the sourcing, it's like, like there's some famous European chef and he was like, you know, 80, 88% of gourmet cooking is source is like sourcing. It's just, it's just knowing what to buy, the quality, you know, like buying things that are ripe, you know, buying things that are locally made, things like that, like that, making sure that they, because if food already has, if you're buying things where they've been allowed to grow on the vine or off the tree or like, if you, if, if you allow for that, then it's going to be already very nutritious. It's going to be fully Formed in flavor, you don't have to do much to it. Like it's already there.

It's true.

And in the finest local restaurants, they barely do anything. It's all about their sourcing of their food. And same thing with like a really great, healthy, you know, humanely raised cow. Grass fed, you know, 100 grass fed raised cow. It's like the meat will taste amazing and you barely have to grill it. All you do is put a little salt, maybe finish it with pluck. And it's like, it's amazing. And they didn't age it, they didn't do tons of stuff. They didn't, didn't have to. It's just, it's just really, really good. I mean I'm, I'm just, I'm, I'm just a real fan of that. Like that. You know, we, we have to, we have to kind of look at these things and not accept everything at face value. We have to realize that, that a, first of all, eating out is, it's impossibly healthy. But two, that, that whatever state you're in, whether if you're feeling overweight, if you're feeling like you're stuck in a rut, it doesn't matter. Like that your current state, if you're not fully thriving, then you can do better first of all. But that also everything is malleable. Like any, you just have to be willing to change it and you have to be willing to give it enough time to change. We cannot expect to snap our fingers and like the taste buds that have been developed for the last 20 years from what you've been eating are suddenly just going to change overnight now. You know, everything's gonna taste amazing that's not made, you know, ultra processed, you know, wise. It's like no ultra processed food's gonna still taste. If that's your primary diet, then everything that's ultra processed is going to taste amazing and anything that's not is going to taste horrible. But that doesn't mean it's good for you because your body is telling you that. Oh, that's what I was going to say actually is like. So here's some other tips on like how you can listen to your body because we've been talking about listening to it, you know, when we're portion size and we're eating all that stuff. But it happens even when you're at the grocery store. Like I always tell people, like notice like when you're going down the grocery aisle and let's say you're in your head you're like, oh, I'm gonna grab this, right? And as you go to grab it, does your grip fail? Like, are you struggling to get it off the eye, you know, out of the aisle? Does it fall out of your hand every time you try to grab it? Do you notice your stomach starts to gurgle or that you pass gas? Like, do you notice that there's actually like almost a muscle response to what you're trying to do? That's your body telling you, this is not going to be good. And, like, I'll even, like, I'll go try a new rest. Like, we found some. We're gluten free and we found some gluten free bakery here in Portland. I'm sorry, in Massachusetts. I used to be in Portland. I. But in Massachusetts. And this bakery is phenomenal. Like, it's truly for gluten free. It really is amazing. But we found it, we tried it and that night I totally was gassy. I was like, okay, so this is my body telling me that whatever, yes, it's gluten free, yes, it tastes good. But you know, gluten free doesn't mean it's healthy. You know what I mean? It just means it's gluten free. And so they're probably using starches, potato starches, or different guar gums, different things to bind that gluten that my body doesn't like. So I had a great time eating there. But I'm going to listen to that response over. Oh, my gosh, this is so good. Like, you know what I'm saying? I'm going to. I'm going to. Yes, it was good going in, but if it's not good going out, then that's what I'm going to listen to because that's my body's response.

I love that. Those are great tips to share. We've had such a great time just talking through so much about the importance of eating well and living a nourished life. I just want to thank you for your time. Chef James, is there anything else that you'd like to leave with our listeners?

Well, sure, yeah. If you want to get some pluck, you can go to eatpluck.com we also have a really great recipes. Like, you'll find tongue recipes, you'll find heart jerky recipes. Just so many chicken hearts, chicken, you know, all different species. And then look for us on all the socials. You know, we're at Eat Pluck for Instagram. And then I'm Chef James Berry as well. And we'd love to hear from you. We have lots of kind of value ads, from recipe booklets to, as I mentioned, recipes to podcasts, kind of sharing different information. So we have lots of ways to help people without you even needing to buy. So anything we can do to just kind of help you move your health, reach out, let us know. We're happy to provide that because that's ultimately what we're here to do.

And I have loved doing events with you too, James. It's been so much fun. So thank you for taking me along the ride.

And we normally don't get. At least I don't get to spend this much time talking with you.

I know, right?

Quite a bit. So thank you so much. And I'm sure a lot of our listeners learned a lot. And we do have a coupon code, right?

Yes, we do have a code for 15% off of pluck. If you go to eatpluck.com and punch in the code sprinkle, you'll get 15% off. We just personally bought two really large original pluck spice bags, and we use it for everything. All over our eggs, all over our pate now, but also popcorn.

Yeah, yeah. We have the large bags right now. And we have four flavors. Basically, the zested garlic, which is AIP for anyone that's sensitive to seeds, and nightshades. We have the original, which is what you bought. That's our first product and probably our best seller. And then we have Spicy Mild, which is a version of the original, but has cayenne and slightly different levels of the ingredient, the amounts of the ingredients. And then we have pure, which is just the ore meats. There's no salt, there's no seasonings, and pure is kind of cool. For those people that are doing, like, smoothies, you can even put it in your pet food if they're. If you want to help them get more micronutrients and. Or help them eat their food, they go like, cats and dogs go crazy for this. And I use it even when I'm making ground meats or sauces. I'll just throw it right in the sauce, and with the ground meat, I'll mix it in. So it's just a way that the pure one is purely for increased nutrition. The other three will give you microdosing of the nutrition with lots of flavor.

Yeah, I think I'm gonna have to pick up an extra bag of that pure.

Yeah, I kind of just. I like. I like adding pure when I know, like, particularly when. When it's four of us. Like, then you can just kind of like, increase the nutrition load to the flavor. Yeah. Because I, you know, pluck is all about the gateway, you know, like, we're not it. We're not trying to be. Like, we don't necessarily want people to stop with pluck. We want you to, you know, empower you to make organs and to go beyond just the seasoning. But you need to start somewhere. And if organ meats are kind of the gateway to nutritional abundance, I would say pluck is the gateway to organs, because it's just. We make it so easy. But you can always go beyond that. And most people do. Once they start to recalibrate their palate to accept organ meats, which Pleck will help you with, you'll find that you'll actually start craving some. Like, chicken hearts are really great next stage because they're. They're very mild, and they take on flavors really well. And you could chop them up so they don't look like a heart. We, as we mentioned, the tongue is a really great one because it takes on. It's closest to muscle. Meat takes on different flavors. Heart as well. And then you can. And then liver. Like, when we were at that. That event, we made, remember the. The liver pate? And, you know, it was so fascinating. I don't know if you saw that these four people were standing around afterwards. We had a ton of pate left over after everyone sampled, and they were wanting to eat more, and they were like, oh, I guess you. You need to take it. I'm like, no, no, you don't understand. It's going to get thrown out. So if you want it, go ahead. And four of them took spoons and just stood there and they ate the whole thing. They chowed down on it. And I was like, have you guys ever, like, do you guys normally eat pate? And they're like, no, we never have.

Yeah.

And I was like, this is incredible. Like, you guys just ate that? Like it was pudding.

Yeah.

Wow.

It was incredible. Like, Tim, they all were like, that was so good. And it was so. Like, I feel so good after eating it. And I'm like, yeah, that's the power of not only organ meats, but also cooking them properly, which is what, you know, Sophie and I showed them how to do. Yeah.

And it was embarrassing. But my eldest daughter, she went up there and she was helping me clean up. I hope you didn't see it. Nobody else saw it, but she was licking the spatula clean. She loved it so much.

Wow. See, that's so cool. Like, that, that thrills me when I see people shifting their perspectives and opening people up to eating whole animal. Like, that's truly why I'm in it. I think there were like 80 people at that cooking demo or something like that. And I really feel like we literally changed their entire lives. Like, they're all left going like, oh, tongue actually tastes good. Like Tim did that first time ever. Like, or like, oh, liverpath. Like, because, because basically what we did, everyone listening is we, we, we, we did liver and tongue, but what we did was we gave them raw liver, we gave them properly cooked liver so it's not overcooked, and then we made pates because I wanted them to taste the different, the different ways of doing it and how cooking it changed the texture, changes the flavor. And I wanted them to decide which one their body responded to. And everyone was willing to go on the ride. And it was so cool because I would say everyone left there realizing that one of those ways or multiples of those ways worked for them.

Right.

And they didn't know that before.

Yeah. I mean, even the frozen raw liver, that was exciting to see people just chow down on that just to be willing to try it.

Totally. Right. And when it's coming from a humanely raised, you know, 100 grass fed, properly, you know, fed animal, it's like it's, it is healthy. Like, if the animal's healthy, it's healthy.

Yeah.

That's another thing. We could probably have a whole podcast on just like phobias, you know, and myths about all these things, you know, like pasteurized milk and why we even have to do that. And, you know, all that, all that.

Stuff, that's definitely podcast number two with you.

Yeah, seriously. But thank you guys for having me. And, and it's always a joy seeing you guys and I know I'm seeing you soon.

That's right.

At another event. Yeah.

We'll see you at the Modern Homesteading Conference next week at Coeur d' Alene in Idaho.

Yep.

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know, is this going to come out before then?

I will put it.

Yeah, we'll put it out before anyone listening to it. And if you, if you're, if you hear it before that event and make sure to come by because, so Sophie will be selling cookbooks. We'll have pluck things to try and it just, I think it's going to be a great event. This is your first time going, right?

Yeah, first time.

Yeah, me too. I, I, but I might, I just instinctively know it's going to be great. It's just going to be an awesome event.

Yeah. I work with Melissa K. Norris and she's amazing to work with. Top notch and all the stuff is great quality content. So I know it's going to be great. So many people who have vended with us at other events have told us this is their favorite event to go to over others, so I'm really excited.

Oh, that's gonna be great.

All right, well, I'll see you there.

We'll see you there.

Thanks so much.

All right, thanks.