GGT Podcast Ep03 James Barry of Eat Pluck

Welcome to the God's Good Table podcast where you can learn all about nutrition, healthy eating and lifestyles, non toxic healing modalities and what the Bible has to say about all of this. So if you're interested in any of these topics, stay tuned. But I also want to tell you about an exciting event we have coming up. August 12th through 14th. God's good table will be at Polly Face Farm near Stanton, Virginia for an exciting, exciting, encouraging information and action packed few days, including a bonus Sunday morning worship and fellowship time featuring preacher Joel. You'll hear from speakers including Sally Fallon Morrell, Chef Jamie Berry, Mike the fit farmer Dixon Pork Rind, the pork evangelist, Joel Saletan, of course, and myself, Maureen Diaz. Our topics include the nutritional importance of animal foods, what the Bible has to say about this, how to select and prepare these foods, and tips to get your family to eat nose to tail. The Polyface crew will be feeding us breakfast and lunch both Friday and Saturday, while we also have a special VIP dinner planned for Saturday evening. The God's Good Table crew will provide a nourishing breakfast on Sunday morning before our worship service as well as early bird. Pricing ends July 13th, so go to godsgoodtable.com now to register. See you there.

Hey everybody. Maureen, again with God's Good Table and I'm so excited today to have a conversation with one of my favorite chefs, Chef James Berry. I'm so happy to have you with us, Jamie. Thank you.

Thank you, Maureen. That's an honor coming from you since I highly regard you as a chef and just a person as well. So thank you for having me.

Well, thank you. I appreciate that. I've enjoyed listening to other podcasts where you've been interviewed, including of course, Holistic Hilda. So now it's my turn and I'm excited about that. So I want to get going with giving you the opportunity to tell our listeners what it is that you do, what is your background and then we can roll with your exciting business venture.

Yeah, well, I basically am a chef by trade, so I've been a chef for over 16 years. It was kind of a miracle that I actually, finally embraced it because it was one of those things that I loved as a kid, but I never saw it as a career. How many people out there are not living their hearts mission, you know, and are just kind of doing the thing that they think they're supposed to be doing? Yeah, that was me and I, I finally, you know, it took 911 to the events of 911 to kind of finally kick, kick me out of that place of just doing things that didn't have heart. So I. After 9 11, I started auditing my life. And I was like, okay, I only want to do things that have heart, that I'm passionate about, that feel, you know, on par with my mission. And I. The way I kind of came to that was I looked back at my childhood and said, well, what did I love as a kid? Because I think you're really pure when you're a kid, you know, in terms of what you love and what you embrace. And it's not as heady and convoluted. And I was like, I always love cooking, always loved it. I'm like, so maybe there's a program out there that fits my sensibilities now. Because one of the reasons I didn't want to embrace it back in the day was because when I thought of being a chef, I thought, well, you have to own a restaurant, you have to work late nights. And I want to do that, you know, and then skip forward to now. I'm in my 30s. It's. It's 19. When was it? I guess it was early 2000s. And now, you know, being a chef means you could do so many other things. You could be a private chef. You can write about. You can write about recipes and cooking. You can be a. You can be a consultant around food. I mean, it was just endless what you could do. And I. And I wanted to private chef. So I went to a school that specialized infusing health and food. And it was known for being a private. A place where people, households would call looking for private chefs. So it was just a beautiful, you know, connection that I made because not only did I learn a lot at the culinary school, but I, in all my jobs that I got two years out of school were all from the school, from the school referring me. So it was just a beautiful symbiotic relationship.

That sounds really neat. And then I know that you were able to chef to some pretty well known people, which must have been very exciting.

Yeah, no, that was. It's definitely an ego boost when you're cooking for, you know, some of the top people in Hollywood, you know, and. And I will name drop one because was really significant. I was cooking for Tom Cruise and I cooked for him for about almost two years. And I left. They wanted to keep me on, but I left. Which actually says a lot, because not a lot of people lasted under the pressures of his life. And I was. And even though it was very challenging, but it was very fulfilling as well. But I Just felt the desire to help more people than just just him. And the reason he was so significant from my process as a chef is because it was working for him that I finally acknowledged myself. You know, like, I acknowledged the confidence as a chef. I had this one moment where I finally met him. It was in Germany. He was shooting Valkyrie, and he brought me into the room, and it was the very first time we were meeting in person. And there were all these, you know, production people, like the director, writers, producers, people that I knew, their names, you know, significant people from Hollywood and people who I respected. And he brought me into the room to introduce me as the person had been cooking their food all day. And they all stood up and started clapping for me.

Oh.

And it was a real moment of, like, just. I mean, I felt like I was going to cry, but it was a real moment of, wow, I've arrived. Like, these are people I respect and have grown up watching and listening to and experiencing, and they're honoring me for what my skills are. So it was just that real. It was a real kind of key moment for my confidence and my experience. I still value my time with them so much because it gave me the strength and confidence to continue onward and feel like I could do anything.

That is a really neat story. I love that. I'm curious about what kinds of foods Tom and the others appreciated. Anything in particular?

Well, I had to sign a lot of NDAs, so I can't divulge details, but I will say that I was really blessed that I was really clear about how I cooked. You know, I. I didn't want to just follow trends. Like, for me, cooking is about keeping food real. I'm very much a fan of ancestral cooking. You know, I know we're both fans of the Weston A. Price foundation and that style of cooking. You know, traditional foods, culturing foods. I'm just a really big fan of how you prepare food is then how you're going to support absorbing it and what you're going to get from it. And so when I first got out of culinary school, I was offered a job that was at a rehab center. And it was the job. It was a place that I had already I interned at, and they were offering me to continue working there. And they were going to pay me $9 an hour. And I was in my 30s, and I basically started crying because I was like, I can't believe I'm in my 30s. I'm leaving work where I'm getting paid. You know, at the time, I think I was getting paid $25 an hour for the work I had been doing and 25 to 30. And now I was getting offered a job for $9 an hour and I wouldn't even be able to survive off of that. And I felt really kind of desperate and I was like, oh my God, what did I just do? I just completely shifted careers and I'm at the bottom of the ladder and. And yet I'm not a young person. You know, like I said, I was in my 30s. And I fortunately though, decided to kind of stand up for myself and just say, you know, I can't take a job like that. And I, so I said no. And then I still didn't know what I was going to do. But fortunately I got a call the very next day from a newscaster in la, at the time, fairly well known newscaster in la, her assistant calling, looking for a private chef. And so when she called, she said, well, we're looking for someone to do this. And they were saying, like, we want specific calories, you know, no fat. And all this kind of very trendy way of looking at food. And I was like, I can't do that for you. I don't believe in counting calories. I don't believe in like, no fat. I just, I believe that I can make you healthier if you let me cook the way I cook. And she said, well, how do you cook? And I started to tell her and she said, okay, well, we want what you're doing. And I, and I cooked for her for two years and I, and I helped her a lot. And, and that's kind of what progressed is, is I started to see that how I cooked for people, started working for them. You know, people like women who had just had their baby. Well, had had their child and couldn't lose that baby weight for years.

Yeah.

And then they connect and I would be cooking for them and in months they would start to lose that weight. And they were like, what are you doing? And what is this magic? What is this voodoo you're doing? And I was like, I'm just cooking real food and I'm not using things that are causing inflammation. I'm not doing things. I'm not putting sugars unnecessarily in your foods. I'm not using synthetic ingredients, you know, I'm just using real food and I'm preparing it in a way where you can actually absorb it.

Yeah. And that way is the way that people around the world have always cooked. Where some of our greatest cuisines have come, say from Italy and France, for instance, France being my favorite. And everything is fresh and from scratch. Totally. And there's definitely no calorie counting, but they're using rich fats like duck fat and butter and cream. And I love Julia Child's. And if you don't have cream, add more butter or whatever.

Right, Right. Well, there's a. There's a famous chef once said that 85% of. Of a great meal is. Is just the sourcing of it.

Yeah.

You know, so just picking that fresh food is. Is. Is, you know, and ensuring that it's been, you know, allowed to. To ripen on the vine and post to, you know, pulled off early and then. And then ripened through chemicals or on a truck or something that when you buy really nice food, you don't have to do much to it. And that. And I agree with you, like much of European fare is just very simply done. You know, it's just really good fat, really quality food, and. And then good, good protein. You know, I mean, it's the kind. That's it.

And then people end up feeling much better, looking much better, functioning much better, the brains are working better. Um, and we're all so busy and on the go, but if we don't have good food to hold us, to anchor us, we can't function well, can we?

No. And, you know, Sally. Sally Fallon mentions this a lot, which is, you know, you can eat the best food in the world, but if your body's not absorbing it, then. Then what's the point? You know, and it's. It's so true. You know, we're. We're. We live in an age where I don't think people think like that. They think. You know, I remember when healthy was a grilled chicken breast, steamed vegetables and a baked potato. That, that was. I mean, and that wasn't that long ago. That was, you know, late 90s, you know, early 2000s, when people were still thinking like that.

Yeah. Yeah.

So I think we, you know, fortunately have a whole new outlook on what's healthy. But, you know, one of the reasons why I started, you know, I know the business we're going to talk about, which is pluck seasoning, is because, you know, 92% of Americans are nutrient deficient. So. And that's. That's a. It's a massive. It's a concerted number. I mean, we have to imagine it's actually even higher than that. And yet we're clearly not starved for food. This. We're not calorie deficient. We're nutrient deficient. That's a very important distinction because America as a whole is an obese, obese, or overweight nation. We have an epidemic of obesity and overweight. So. So it's not the food people are eating. That's. It's not. It's not. Not having enough food.

Right.

Whereas that might be the case, you know, in other countries, but in this country, it has nothing to do with not having enough food. It has to do with the food we're choosing to eat.

Exactly, exactly. And we all know a lot of people, and I was in this category formerly, that they eat. They have no shortage of food, as you're saying, but they're obese and experiencing a lot of health issues and serious health issues in some cases. In my case, I was eating healthy food from scratch, food that I was raising myself, but I was eating the wrong kinds of food as well. And that too much bread and ice cream and not enough meat and fat and vegetables. So even within the realm of eating whole food and real food, we still need to focus on getting the nutrients that our body needs and not just the calories, right?

Absolutely. I mean, it took me so right out of college, I got a kidney stone. One of the most painful things I've ever had happen to me. It's the closest a man could get to having childbirth. And it's still not that close. To give you an idea. It's really painful. But what I learned from it, and I am so grateful for it, is that I learned, and I was around 21 when this happened, but I learned that, oh, what I eat and drink affects my health. And that may sound so simple, but ultimately, that is the biggest lesson any of us can learn, is that the food we put in our body, the drinks we choose to put in our body, those will affect our health. It is the thing we do the most every day. And so whenever you have any kind of ailment, any kind of situation when you don't feel good, my vote is always the first thing I do is look at what I'm eating.

Exactly. Yeah, I do as well. I'm glad you learned that and you've been able to run with it, and I did as well. What Erin and I are, of course, trying to do is to take that same message out to the masses. We've followed Weston A. Price foundation and Weston A. Price's teaching for years, and you have. When did you first learn of Dr. Price's research?

2004, when I was in culinary school, actually. We studied it there.

Oh, cool.

Yeah. And I got really into it. I just immediately connected with it and, and saw the value.

Yeah.

Yeah. So it's been a long time. Been a long time. I mean, honestly, like, I've been in the kind of health arena field for so long now that things I was doing, you know, back in the day are now just getting popular. I'm trying to think of an example.

But like kombucha sauerkraut.

Yeah. Like all, you know, the cultured vegetable, I mean, I was doing all that. The bone broth, I, I mean, I was doing all that stuff long time ago. So now that it's also popular, it's funny because everyone's like, oh, well, what recipes do you do? I'm like, oh, gosh, I haven't done, you know, I haven't thought about that in 10 years. Like, yeah, I was really passionate about that, you know, 16, 15 years ago. And so now I'm kind of like, well, I don't think about it as much.

You just do. Right.

Do it. Yeah. And honestly, you know, just like any trend, you know, you, you start out, you know, not trend, sorry, anything you're passionate about, you start out really like going all in, two feet in, and you're making everything from scratch. But, you know, over time, you eventually get a little lazy or you, you're focusing on other things. And so maybe you then buy the, you know, buy the cultured condiments that, you know, meet your criteria, opposed to making them. So that's kind of where I'm at. I don't, I don't make this stuff from scratch as much as I used to. And that's just being honest.

Well, I oftentimes find myself going to a store and trying to find fermented organic sauerkraut because I run out. And.

Yeah, I mean, that's the reality too, is like, you know, we have. That's one of the reasons why I also created pluck, which is. And I guess I should probably share, since I've now mentioned it twice, probably share what it is. But, you know, when I think of health, I really do look at it from a practical place. Like, we can have the best intentions, but if you can't actually integrate it into your life, then what good is it? You know, we can talk left and right about what to eat, what not to eat, but for the person that a doesn't know how to cook, or the person that doesn't know where to source, or the person just is a single parent or doesn't have time, have the passion for it, it's really an uphill battle. So my goal has always been, well, how can I make it easy but effective? And that's why, you know, I came up with pluck, which is an organ based season. As seasoning as, you know, it's a way to get organ meats into the diet as easy and simply and deliciously as possible.

So I'm going to show you now that little treat that I told you.

Whoops.

That I had prepared.

Yeah.

Bone marrow. I roasted some bones this afternoon so that I can scoop the marrow out and then make broth. And guess what I put on top of it?

Pluck seasoning.

Pluck seasoning. So I could get a little bit more.

Yeah. Oh, that's beautiful.

I love that. And then I taste it with just a sip of red wine.

Oh, nice. Yeah. It's so good, right? So good on that. What is it? What is. How would you describe pluck season?

It's many layers of flavor. It's very complex and it's very agreeable with almost anything. I don't put it in my panna cotta, I don't put it in my ice cream and I don't put it in my tea, but I put it in just about everything else.

Yeah.

Be scrambled eggs or obviously the beef marrow or stew. I put it on my roasted chicken. I put it on my hamburgers or in my burgers, everything. Because you formulated a flavor palette that goes with almost anything while at the same time we're getting the wonderful nourishment from the organ meats that are tucked away in there without, without even detecting it. Although I like the flavor of many organ meats, most people as, you know, gag. So what you've done is you've made.

It accessible and that was definitely the goal because we, we do have a blend coming out soon that is just the organ meat. It's 100 organ meat. So it's definitely going to be for those people that don't mind the acquired taste, that want just 100% nutrition. But pluck seasoning was always the way I, I always wanted it to be. Was the gateway. It's just a gateway to getting you into organ meats. It's not meant to be your last stop. My encouragement is for everyone to, to try all to all as much of nose to tail eat, as much nose to tell as they can, you know, because that's one thing, you know, when we think of organ meats. Well, what are organ meats? A lot of people just default to liver, kidney, heart. But it's much more than that. It's. It's, you know, another name for it is awful, which is not the best name, but we'll take it. And that's off a l. So awful. And it just refers to the parts of the animal that typically fall off when you're butchering. So that could be the more common, like I mentioned, the liver, kidney, heart, the less common, the spleen, lungs, testicles, ovaries, brain, which are definitely harder to get. The thymus or pancreas, which I always love this question because no one really usually knows what it is. But when you go to a restaurant, you see sweet breads on the menu. That's what that is. It's pancreas and thymus and. Or thymus, bone marrow, as you mentioned, tongue, lips, ears, skin. So that all the blood, all that is awful. The only thing that they don't count as awful is the bone, the literal bone, everything in it, they count. That sounds awful, but the bone is just the bone. And so that is, you know, when I say nose to tail, my goal is to try to support people in getting as many of those things I just mentioned into their diet. And so Pluck has five of them. So Pluck has liver, kidney, heart, spleen and pancreas. And my hope is to later have. Have a product that has other things like the testicles, the ovaries, the brain, if I can get access to it.

Yeah, that's hard.

I want to continue to make it very accessible for people to get these organs, mostly because of that deficiency. We know that people are deficient and we know that organ meats are one of the most nutrient dense products on the planet. So to me, if we're at, if the scale is like this, if we know we have organ meats are the most nutrient dense and yet people are nutrient deficient, then to me, the way to balance the skills for people to get more of that nutrient sufficient food. Like organ meats.

Yeah. I find it interesting that an animal just like a person has all of these organs and they're in the correct proportion for their body. When we are eating that animal and appreciating the animal, we should appreciate all of those organs and as well. And we should be consuming in the same general proportions for our health instead of focusing on just the muscle meat. I'm sure you're aware, and you can probably tell stories too of the research of cultures around the world who didn't highly value the muscle meat. They valued the organ meat.

Absolutely. And there's a concept called, like Supports like so. And you know, so the idea being that if you are needing liver support, then you should be eating animal liver. You know, if you're needing brain support, you should be eating brain from an animal. So. And you know, I think, I think when talking about organ meats we also have to speak to the myths or the things that are deterring people from eating it. So, and that was, some of those were the things that I really wanted to solve. So one of them, as you already mentioned, is that ick factor. You know, a lot of people have this idea even though they've never tried it, mind you, right. A lot of people just, they just go to this place of organisms, they get that ick face, right. And yet you ask them have you ever tried it? And they're like, no. So how did you, how do you know to have that face? I don't know, I just, it just, you know, it's unfamiliar. So I, and I totally understand. I mean I was that way too. I didn't eat organ meats as a kid. So the ick factor is the first deterrent. The other is we've lost the art of cooking them. A lot of people don't know how to cook it anymore, you know, so the culinary skills or knowledge is one of them. Another deterrent is sourcing. A lot of people don't know where to get them, how to get access to them. And then the fourth might be cost, not with organ meats, but with capsules. Because the people that know they should be eating organ meats are buying them in supplement form and it gets expensive. Now if they actually just bought the whole organs, they'd find it's actually much cheaper than muscle meat. But then, then you're dealing with the other issues which is the cooking or the sourcing or the ick factor. Right. So those were all things I immediately wanted to try to solve and I think I did, you know, with pluck because I'm utilizing modern technique of freeze drying. So we currently, you know, when you buy encapsulated organ meats, it's freeze dried powdered organ meat. So it's raw organ meats that have been freeze dried, powdered and then they're just encapsulated. So I was like, well, I'm going to take the same source that they're using for the capsules and it's usually come from, coming from New Zealand, from 100 grass fed cows, pasture raised, no, you know, no hormones, no, no antibiotics and you know, very high quality.

Yeah.

And I'm going to Take that same ingredient. But I'm going to help to, you know, offset the flavor. And so I added organic spices and herbs and I. And I just added them in a way that would make it not. Would make the person eating pluck not deal with the ick factor. You don't need to know how to cook anything. You can sprinkle on literally anything. And you're going to increase the nutrient load and get nutrients that you were previously not getting from that food.

Yeah, that's right. And I've used pluck on some of my foods. When people have come over who otherwise would definitely react with that ick, I can't that. And yet after the meal I've said, oh, by the way, you just had a helping of. Not a full helping, but you know, you had some organ meats in that food that you just ate. And people are usually intrigued sometimes. And I want to go into this as well. I use pluck in addition to. And on top of the organs that I eat. Because I do. Last week, for instance, I made beef liver and onions. I was just very hungry for it. I knew my body needed it. I was going to take a picture and do a write up about it, but I was so hungry for it, I ate it immediately. Right. Oh, I took a picture of an empty bowl, but I put pluck on the liver and onions. So I want to talk about how we can incorporate organ meats generally, even when people have that ick factor. And then of course, how we can enhance them with the pluck seasoning as well.

I love hearing that you. When I and you're not alone and people tell me, oh yeah, I put it on my organ meats as well. I'm like, well, great, because I designed it to be just a good seasoning. It's. It's meant to be, you know, replace like your common Lowry's All Purpose or your Old Bay. So it's like, it's designed to just be very flavorful. So I feel the same way. I mean, I put it on. You know, we were talking before. I literally, I do this. I put it on everything. I mean, there's not one thing I don't put it on. I mean, I don't eat a lot of sweets. So that's why I agree with you. I wouldn't gravitate towards putting on sweets, but I know clients who have and they've said it's really good. It kind of adds that umami saltiness to the sweet. So, you know, anyone that likes this, the, the salty sweet things you like kettle corn and all that kind of salty stuff. They'll probably like it, but it's just not where I gravitate towards.

I don't eat a lot of sweets either. I'm not drawn to that. But I do make sweets, mild sweets with natural sweeteners when I have company or when there's a special something going on. But I would try when you come out with the next. The next product, organ meats, just encapsulated or in powder.

Yeah. So I'm going to do it. It's going to be on powder, a pouch where you can just spoon it into things. Anything that has flavor.

Yeah. That's better than a capsule.

Yeah, yeah. It will be cheaper. And then that way you don't have to open the capsules and throughout the capsule. So just make it. Once again, I want to make it easy. I just, you know, if they're. If it's easy, then it's more likely you'll use it. Do it. Um, but in terms of supporting organ meats, so I usually break it down this way. I look at, look at. As I mentioned, I see pluck as the gateway. It's just, it's. It's the easiest way to do it. So I definitely see, like, if you're doing it in stages, that pluck is technically the first stage. Yeah, it's the first one you want to try. If you're. You're not acclimated to that umami taste, you just are. You know, you need to get over the hump of the association you have with organ meat. Get over the psychological thing. Just using pluck is going to help that because it's going to help to start to shape your palate with the umami and the flavor. And it's just so easy. So you'll do it as often as you can. You know, hopefully you're just. I mean, I recommend you just season it like you would salt and pepper so you have it on your table and you're doing it for everything. Because the key with pluck is it's micro dosing. Right. Because it's not a hundred percent organ blend. It's. It's micro dosing plus frequent use equals accumulative effect. So you're getting micro dosing. But if you use it often, you. You absolutely will get the benefits. And then once you've done that, I then recommend the next stage being where you are. You either make or purchase like an ancestral blend. So Force of Nature has a great blend and it has like, you know, liver and heart in it, and it's just ground meat. And sometimes you can even buy it from your farmer. If you talk to them, it's ground meat that already has had some of the heart or the liver ground into it, and they just pick a percentage. And if you're making your own, I recommend not going over 25%. I find when you go over 20 or 25% now, the texture of the ground meat changes and the flavor. And that's great if you're someone like yourself who likes the flavor. But the goal for this first early stage is I want to incorporate organ meats, but I don't want to taste them.

Exactly. And that's why I have recipes. Well, when we butchered our own animals or had them butchered, I always had the liver. Excuse me, some of the liver, because I wanted to eat some of it. But some of the liver and kidneys and the sweetbreads ground into the ground meat. And then I could make meatloaves and meatballs and burgers with that. So we always got a dose of those good organs, no matter what I was making. And then, of course, we have recipes that we use at the Wise Traditions conference that incorporate. For instance, we have a pate campagna, which is pork liver and ground pork and ground pork belly and more pork fat and good seasonings. And it comes out really like a meatloaf. So it is more like 25% liver and a lot of ground pork. And the pork belly, as you know, is.

Yeah. So good.

Yeah. So we feed that to people, and they. They just gobble it up. And when I do that kind of thing here at home to unsuspecting friends and neighbors, they. They gobble it up as well. But if you go above, I usually stay at about 20%. If you go.

Yeah, I do as well. 20% is kind of the max I normally do, but I say 25 because sometimes that's easier to measure for people. But basically, you know, just to put it in a visual form for people, we're talking a pound. So a pound of ground meat is 16 tablespoons. So 25% of that would be four tablespoons. Right. Which is basically a fourth of a cup. So you want to be doing a little under a fourth of a cup if you're trying to do that. 20%?

Yeah. Yeah.

That's usually how I recommend you visualize it. But I definitely. So that's. That's usually phase two. Now phase two, kind of two and a half, or you could say phase three is for people that Are like, okay, I don't mind touching and working with the organ. And so in that situation, I say, okay, purchase first. First organ of purchases. Like a beef liver. Mm. You're gonna get it usually frozen. It's pretty large. And you can do two things with it. You can either defrost it enough. Not all the way, but enough to cut it into tiny little pieces that you can then swallow. And we just call those liver shots, right? And you put them, you know, I'm talking pill size, you know, pieces, literally, where you don't have to chew it, because if you have to chew it, you're gonna taste it. But if you. If it's small enough that you can just swallow it, then it's seamless. There's no taste to it. But yet, once again, you're getting the benefit of it. And it's raw, and so it's really good for you. So that's one way to do the liver shots. And then the other way is to leave that liver frozen and only pull it out when you need to use it and just grade it. Just grade it in. I love doing that, showing people that, because one of the. One of the biggest issues with organ meats is that they're just big, right? So, like, you get a beefler, it's huge.

It's amazing how big it is.

It's so big. And so a lot of people are like, ah, like, what if I defrost it and start cooking some of it? I can't use all of it. And I'm like, great, then don't defrost it. Just keep it frozen and grate it as much as you want. Grate that 20% into your ground meat, whatever it is, and then put the rest right back in the freezer, and it's still preserved.

And a lot of people tell me that they do that. And then they put that in a smoothie.

Oh, absolutely. You won't know it. You could grate a couple tablespoons into your chocolate smoothie or whatever it is. You will not know it's there.

Yeah, you won't. And from there, what's the next phase?

Well, so then, now my thought is, okay, you've graded it, you're touching it. So now you're getting more and more acclimated to it. You've now hopefully found a source for it. So now let's dive into actually making the organ meat. Not the star of the meal, but. But a visual part of the meal. So, and I usually recommend you do heart. And the simplest animal heart is Chicken, that one. It's just the flavor is actually sweet. The heart is the closest to muscle meat of any of the organs.

Yes.

Tongue would be also up there. Tongue and heart are the closest to muscle meat. And they're just particularly the chicken hearts. They really, they don't have that. They don't have a taste really, that that is. People associate with or it's not irony or anything like that.

It really does taste like chicken.

Yeah, it's just so mild. And so what I recommend you do is so in this case, if, let's just say you're using the chicken hearts, you chop them up like you would have mushroom. So they're just little diced pieces and then throw them into the stir fry. So they're not the main. You might, let's just say, still be using chicken. Let's say you have chicken thigh in the, in the saute. The, the heart is just meant to be a. Complementary to that. So just treat it as though it was a mushroom. If you were adding mushrooms to that dish, you wouldn't make mushrooms. The main show, you would just do, you know, part of it, mushroom, and do the same thing with the heart. And so now you're actually getting bits of heart, but it's still not visual. You're not looking at your dish going, oh, there's heart in there. It looks like really, it's going to look like mushroom. That's honestly what it's going to probably look like. And then taste wise, you're not even going to notice it.

Right.

So that would be, you know, the phase four ish. And then from there, then I would say, okay, now that you're, you, you're now, you're used to cutting it, you're working with it, you're sourcing it. Now let's make it the main show.

Right.

And so I would then do tongue. Tongue would be the first thing I would do when it's the primary. This is now going to be the primary meat, you know, organ meat. This is the dish and how I would do it is. So we all love tacos, right? Tacos are family meal. And tongue, when you cook it, you know, you, you just, you can braise it or cook it like you would any kind of pulled pork or something like that. You just follow.

Peel that layer of skin off.

Yeah, but if you cook it first for a couple hours, it just peels right off. You know, that layer of skin just comes right off. You don't even have to do it before you cook it.

What do you cook in I'm just.

So I usually cook it in. I even sometimes add some onions, maybe even a little garlic. And then I use either some broth or water at first just to cook it. And I cook it. Even I cook it in either slow cooker or like a pressure cooker. And if it's a slow cooker, it's like an hour and a half, two hours. It's not. It doesn't even have to be that long. And then, and then you pull it out and it's just already. That skin, that outer layer will start to kind of be peeling off. Just help it out. And then what's underneath that skin is this very like stringy muscle meat. And so then what I do with that is I put that on a sheet tray. I season it a lot of times with pluck, but you could just do salt, whatever you want. I season it and then I stick it under the broiler and I make it like carnitas.

Oh, cool. I have never.

It gets crispy. It gets crispy just like you would. Carnitas. That's what carnitas. Carnitas is pulled pork. Yeah, that's then broiled, you know, that gets crispy on the outside. And so basically I do that. I shred it first and then I put it under the broiler, get it crispy, and then that's the meat for tacos. And that's what we use for a taco night.

Yeah, I love that.

No one will know. No one will know. And if for some reason the tongue you get is not huge, you can always combine it with some other, you know, meat if you want and just combine the both of them together. Like, I think pulled pork and beef tongue would be fantastic together. So you could always just do that and have a carnitas night.

Really? Tongue tacos are one of my favorite things. Yeah, I used to.

And then, you know, and then from there you can go keep. You can keep going, you know, forward. You can start using tripe, you can start using liver and onions is obviously an easy one. You can then start doing pates, you know, I mean, you can just kind of from there, just let it. Let your adventurous, you know, palate take you wherever you want to go. But I think that that will progressively get you there.

Yeah.

And then the one that you've mentioned several times that is difficult now to get is brain.

Brain. Yeah.

I unsuccessfully made brain fritters for my brain fritters. Excuse me, for my mother in law once and decided I would leave it to other people to Do a better job of it. But, but yeah, we, we gently boiled that and pulled the, the outer membrane off. Actually, one of my girls did a much better job of it than I did.

I've never actually had it, I've never sourced it just because it, you can't find it commercially. So you have to, you have to go to a, you know, a farm, a local farm. You got to talk to them and then, you know they're only going to have so many brains, right? Because every animal has one brain. So you just got to hope that you're, you're, you ask before someone else does, you know, and, and hope that they'll sell it to you. A lot of times, you know, when we talk about, I think an important conversation when we talk about organ meats is supply chain. You know, even a fantastic farm like Polyface does not have access to all the organs of the animals that they get slaughtered, because those, any farm or ranch is in a relationship with a meat processing plant. And that meat processing plant has what's called a HACCP plan. And the HACCP plan is basically their legal definition of how and what they will kill, what they will, you know, butcher from that animal. And it's, it's recording how they do it so that if there's ever any issues with the meat, they can track it. They can always, they can prove that, well, this is how we do it.

And they want brains because of mad cow disease.

Right? Because when mad cow disease happened, even though mad cow disease has to do with the industry feeding sick animals to, you know, supposedly healthy animals, and then those healthy animals becoming sick, even though it had nothing to do with brain, it had to do with the sick animals, they still associate it with the brain. And so that's why it's really hard to get in the U.S. but those, that, those slaughtering houses, though, that, that HACCP plan that every slaughtering house has is dictating what they are willing to sell or not sell. And so I, you know, I talked to the team at Polyface and I think, I think. And maybe it's changed since I talked to them, but they previously could get the liver, they could sometimes get the kidney, and then they could get the heart. So the liver and the heart were the main ones they could get, but their, their butcher plant wouldn't give them access to the other stuff.

Yeah.

So it's really hard to find. But when you find it, don't tell anyone because, because then.

I'm thinking, because we had, we, we butchered all of our small, small animals, but our larger animals we used to send to an abattoir. And after the mad cow disease thing, they started to not want to give us everything. Well, we had farmers that I dealt with through my Weston A. Price chapter who. A couple of them just built butcher shops.

Yeah.

We sent our animals to them and we could get everything.

Yeah, you're just. Yeah. And as long the key with that is that, like I said, you can't sell it commercially when you set up stuff, usually the meat that those kind of butchers create is for. Not for sale. And so what it is, is you get it through a meat share. And so that's really the scenario you're going to find. Or it's your animals. Right. It's. So it's either a meat share or it's your animal. And you're getting every part of that animal, which is glorious.

The USDA butcher shops still don't want to give you the brains.

Right.

They're hesitant with spleen and all of that. Very difficult to get legally through a regular abattoir these days. But we have our underground sources.

Well, and one of my goals with my company is to work on the domestic supply chain in the US because there really isn't one right now. The organ meats from USDA facilities, most of them are designated as not for human consumption. So they're going to the pet food industry or they're going to zoos to feed the animals there. And sometimes they're just completely discarded. Sometimes it's just trash. So it really depends. There is a false belief. People think that it's like, oh, well, if it's not being sold at a butcher stuff, then then it's completely just thrown away. And that's not true. The. The US Meat industry is very efficient. They're very much trying to get money from as much as they can. It's just most of it is not designated for human consumption. So that's why you don't see it in a butcher shop.

Right. Sometimes I wonder if in a starvation situation, we shouldn't just be eating canned dog food.

I know. Seriously, some of that. Some of those foods are probably a lot more healthier than what we're. Than what's in cans for human consumption. That's so true. But it does make me want to go back and touch on the myths that I brought up, because I think, you know, just touching on the butchering myth is one thing, but there's two myths that I find come up around organ meats, and one is around Vitamin A, that, that I'll get too much vitamin A, that, that basically I'll, I'll get it become toxic for me because I get too much. And then the other is that organ meats are, organs are the, the, it's where toxins get.

Oh yes. Where toxic stored toxins are stored, right?

That they get stored there, that it's a filtration for toxins. And so that basically they all get stored in there. And so I just, if you don't mind, I'd love to address those.

I want you to talk about that because that's something that I address as well. So go ahead.

Yeah, so, so let's just talk about first the toxins. And, and really what, what, what are organs? Right. So really they are filtrations, but they're, they're so they're so nutrient sufficient because they're designed to help take toxins that come into your body and turn them into water soluble, you know, material so that it can leave your body. Because if you think about it, when, when things are water soluble, that means they can leave through your pee, through your poop, through your sweat, right? They can leave through your detoxification pathways, right? They have to be water soluble to leave your body, right? If we sweat, it's, it's, it's liquid that we sweat. We don't. You don't usually see fat globules, you know, coming out of your pores, right? It has to be, it has to be a liquid like a, like a water, a water soluble liquid. So that's really what the organs are doing. They are, they're, they're just taking the toxins and they're making them water soluble. But the issue is, is when you have issues with your health, the, sometimes the toxins can get stored in your body, but they still don't get stored in the organs. They go into your fat.

Right?

Which people get confused because they're like, well, what about fatty liver issues, you know? Well, it's like, well yeah, that is an issue because you're obese. And so you have had fat accumulating around your organs. And so yes, that fat can sometimes store the toxin, but the organ itself is not storing the toxin.

It's not. That's what I tell people to. It's not a storage organ, it's a filtration organ. And of course that brings up a good point to be made also. And that is our bodies need fat and fat is one of the tastiest part of any cut of meat that you might eat. But if you're consuming any part of an animal from a conventional operation, a factory farm where there's a lot of chemical residue and the genetically modified feed, then that best, most beautiful taste that you might want is actually the most toxic as well, because the organs have done their job very efficiently. They've removed the toxins and stored them in the fat. So it's really important that we eat cleanly sourced meats. And of course you're getting your organ meats from New Zealand where they're not allowing all of the genetically modified foods and the heavy input of chemicals, chemicals not limited to glyphosate, but that being a major one and therefore it's very much safe. But we have a lot of farmers here who are trying to do things right. So we need to be careful about where we source our food.

Yeah. And that's one of the things I hope to solve with my company is like I said, I'm trying to get that domestic supply chain established and collect the really quality products, these organ meats from these small farms, from these farmers that are doing it right. But then get access to them all and then use them for food products instead of them going to dog food, but get them into human food products. So that's definitely on the roster and I've been working on it now for about eight months and hitting a lot of red tape and a lot of walls, but I do see it. I, I really do think I will achieve it and I look forward to spreading that nose to tail way of eating in easy, you know, easy ways as I, as I achieve it. I really, I look forward to that because we, New Zealand has great quality product, but I mean, as you mentioned, we have lots of farmers in the US that do great work and I would much, you know, particularly with the current state of affairs around food and in international climate that I think the more that we can establish a domestic supply chain for these really high quality foods, these really nutritious foods, the better off we are. Yeah. And the more accessible we can make them. Because obviously when you're getting product from New Zealand, it's going to cost more because of the shipping. Right. So if I can get it though from California or from a local farm in the us it's going to be cheaper.

Right. And with Weston A Price foundation, that's one of the reasons that we have local chapters, is to connect those good, clean farmers with the consumers that need their food. So.

Absolutely. And then to just address the other myth really quickly is the vitamin A toxicity potential and Those studies that are out around that have to do with synthetic vitamin A. And so the really key. The key thing is to distinguish between anything around worrying about toxicity, around getting too many vitamins. Is the source synthetic or is it whole food? When it's coming from whole foods like liver or organ meats, your body actually can take what it needs and then relinquish whatever it doesn't need. So it just pees out the rest or it leaves your, you know, your detoxification pathways in some way. So the fear of getting too much of a good thing when it's from a whole food isn't actually a legitimate fear.

There's also a synergistic effect when the food is not. The nutrient is not isolated from a food, but the nutrient is in its proper proportions with the associated nutrients. In this case vitamin D, for example. Yeah. So they work together synergistically. When you separate them, you may be playing with fire if you take too much of one or the other. That's why we suggest, for instance, cod liver oil or cod livers instead of just vitamin D supplementation.

Right. The more whole food you can get, the better. And I know, and that's another little tidbit, too, if you're making pate, and I know Sally talks about this a lot, is that if you're making a pate, like with a beef liver, then you want to use pork fat to cook, to make it with, because the pork fat is going to be high in vitamin D and the liver is going to be high in vitamin A. And together you'll. You'll help to make it even better for your body.

Right. And with that, it is better. It tastes better as well. It adds everything that is good for us, that is truly good for us, I find tastes wonderful. And that's just an incredible benefit that it always makes me happy to think about. So we're going to spread more good news about nose to tail nutrition at Polyfaith Farm. Jamie's coming to speak. We have information up on our website, but we have a whole menu of speakers and topics all relating to nose to tail nutrition. It includes a VIP dinner with limited tickets, of course. And. And we're just really excited, Jamie, to have you come and talk about.

I'm so excited. I'm preparing what I hope to be a very fun and informative presentation. So I'm really excited to share.

That's great. Thank you. I'm excited to see you again and to hear what you have to say. So with that, we're going to Wrap it up for today, but we'll be back with more. We've got a whole, a whole list of podcasts in the pipeline waiting to come out, but this one with Jamie, it's been especially delightful. Thank you so much.

Thank you. And if anyone wants to get pluck, I'm sure you're going to have them in the show notes, your own personal link. Because I think you guys, we have.

A link source page and we will put a link in the show notes as well.

Yeah, yeah. I'll just verbally say it's@eatpluck.com and click the link below this to get some because I hope. My mission is to really help people. I want a million people to eat organ meats. So if that means starting with pluck, great. If it, if you're already eating them in other ways, then great. But let's just continue to get organ meats into our diets because I believe that we can make the world a better place by doing it. If we feel better in our bodies, we're going to treat other people better.

So you're right.

Join me, join me in that. In that mission. Everyone listening and encourage people to eat organ meat.

Yeah, definitely. Thank you. And we'll see you next time.

All right, take care.

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