How A Healthy School Lunch Can Change Kids at Home | Hilary Boynton

Should we abolish the kids menu?

Without a doubt, yes. The kids that I feed, they just seem very stable. They're not having like meltdowns. They're not depressed. You get one chance to grow your kids' brains and bodies. You don't really get a do-over.

For most of human history, kids ate what the family ate. There wasn't a separate category called kid food. My guest today, Hillary Boynton, is a chef. Author, GAP-certified coach, and founder of School of Lunch. Hillary, should we abolish the kids menu?

I say without a doubt, yes. It's not necessary. We need to just normalize real food, and what we're all eating is just what we're eating together.

How did kid food become its own category, you think?

I think really when like industrialization came in and more processed packaged foods and hyperpalatable foods came in, Kids started becoming, and adults, but kids especially started becoming addicted to those. Their taste buds became hijacked, and then it became a battle, right? Their microbiome shifted, they start to crave these foods, and then the parents end up in a battle. And now, we've just like, you know, processed foods are everywhere. And so, it's like now, the kids are kind of running the show.

Yeah, well, you're testing a very different approach in schools. So, what happens when kids are simply served real food? Even at school lunchtime?

It's amazing. I mean, I say even to parents who have the pickiest eaters, I'm like, just give me 2 weeks, because it does take a little bit of transition where you normalize this way of eating. At the school where I cook, it's beautiful in the sense that from kindergarten through high school, everyone's eating together. All the staff is sitting down and eating with the kids as well. So, it's a way of life at the school. So, there's no Oh, well, this group is eating this and this group is eating that, or the teachers are in their lounge eating. It's like everyone's participating. So they're all going through the line together. And when you kind of get down on the level of a little 5-year-old and encourage them to try new things and they're watching their peers try new things, or you give 'em a little dab of salad dressing to just dip their finger in and try, and then their eyes light up, they actually like it. Or a little bit of sauerkraut, or they watch their neighbor try it first and then they decide to try it. So it's like a little healthy peer pressure. But, it's really the normalizing of this is what we do every day. There's no other option. Everyone participates.

And, you find in 2 weeks, the kids do get normalized to this different way of looking at food at school?

Right, for the most part. I mean, every year there's a couple of kids. Last year, I had 2 kids that were just so picky. And, we actually have at the end of the line, we always have something. So, if they end up at the end of the line with nothing on their plate, I'm like, okay, come on back. We got to find something that you like. So, we'll have salami or cheese Or trail mix, something for them to have something in their belly and be satiated and know that we're on their side and we want them to be happy and we're going to find something that kind of bridges it for them. They know that it's not a battle, but it's just like we're here to support them. And then, these 2 kids that came back this year were only in the second week of school and they both have beautiful plates of food. I'm like, okay, transition to first grade. Wow.

Yeah. So it works.

It's amazing. And, and I've noticed like one of 'em was like coming to the line and like really angry, just like, I don't want to try anything. And just really, and then we'd make him have something, you know, like you gotta put something in your belly and keep it fun. And then he'd go off with whatever and then he'd come racing back 4 seconds. So it was more that he was like hangry. He just couldn't like handle his system at that point. So once he got some nourishment, he could like think straight and actually realize like, oh, okay, I do like this and I can eat and my friends are all eating. And so you just have to kind of get to know the kids and become their ally and their friend and make it a really joyful, fun experience.

Do the parents kind of double down on the kids' pickiness to say, you need to provide for my kids, or do they support your process of like, just let us continue to expose it to them and then eventually they'll come around?

Yeah, no, they're really more in the supportive role of like, wow, you know, this is amazing. Usually it's like my kid is eating more at school than maybe they eat at home because they have a little more like, you know, pushback at home. But, you know, there's been different approaches. Mostly parents are like just overjoyed and so grateful that we're feeding their kids and educating the kids and encouraging the kids because they see the transition. We invite the parents in for lunch once a month, so the parents get to sit down with the child. So, we get to kind of say like, okay, here's your chance, like show your mom and dad what you're eating. And they're proud of their progress, and then the parents are encouraging them. So, it becomes like a really nice united front for the child. I've had another parent who, her child, I said, okay, just promise me like one, every day you'll try something new, just a little something, whether it's a dab of salad dressing or a piece of lettuce or a carrot or a shepherd, a dab of shepherd's pie, whatever it is. And she would pack his lunch every day, but he told his mom, he said, Mom, I promised Chef Hilary that I would try something new every day. So he goes through the line with his lunch, he tries something new, but he always had that kind of security blanket of like, okay, if I don't like it, then I have my lunch. And then he just slowly transitioned to eating school lunch.

Is School of Lunch proof that picky eaters are made, not born?

I think so. I mean, I think actually though, sometimes like with picky eaters, it depends on the state of their microbiome too, right? Like if they're all out of whack there, those bad bugs are kind of running the show, right? It's that gut-brain connection. So if they're way out of whack, then they just crave like white flour, white sugar. It's about rebalancing their microbiomes. So that's why like it's so fun to see them taking, you know, sauerkraut and craving sauerkraut because that's like the—

Interesting.

Good guys are starting to proliferate and they actually are starting to crave it. And that happens a lot with little kindergartners, which is so fun.

For those that have never experienced School of Lunch, what category of food, what are you serving that maybe the home cook or the parents listening can replicate in their own kitchens?

Yeah, I mean, it really stems from my home and what I, you know, know to be nutrient-dense and solid family meals and what kids like. I've never worked in a Commercial kitchen or been to culinary school. So I sort of went off intuition, but it's all surrounded by, you know, protein is prominent and first because we wanna make sure that kids get a proper amount of protein. So whether that's a bolognese sauce with ground beef and liver or sausage, ground sausage, we have roasted chicken, we slow roast meats from chuck roll to pork shoulder. So a good portion of meat. And then we just surround it with like really healthy vegetables and good fat and salad with great dressing and fruit. Ferments. And then, we have like little things that we fill in with, but like we might have like a quinoa salad or we'll have like chicken and rice or rice and beans and pulled pork. So, it's, I mean, basically like I could say a meal might be pasta. Like Mondays, we kind of roll in with the pasta. We'll do a beautiful pasta bolognese, but we'll put ground beef with liver. And then, we'll have like roasted broccoli with ghee and good salt. And then, we always have crudité so the kids can have raw carrots and cucumbers. Or, and then a salad and salad dressings and stuff to put on top.

And, is the focus really just on, it's all real food?

Yeah, it's all real food. It's the best quality we can find. 80, 85% is sourced locally. So, we focus on farmers and connecting with our local food system and bringing that into the school every month at that Parents at Lunch. We try to highlight a specific farmer or food purveyor that comes to the school. We highlight their products. And introduce the parents to the people that are growing and raising their food or producing like, you know, Real Salt. We've had Redmond Real Salt come several times. So then the parents get informed about how important it is to support the local food system and how beautiful and delicious and easy and simple these foods are when they're just, they're so beautiful, but they're really just very basic and simple.

Now, for those that don't know, it's the School of Lunch. It's a program that you started, but this is a private school, is that correct?

Yeah.

I imagine that's probably the biggest argument you get is like, oh, well, of course you could do this at a rich private school. Is this model truly sustainable in a public school where governments are funding?

Yes. Yeah. I mean, I actually started out in the public school system back in Massachusetts, and then we ended up moving to California, and I I got my foot in the door at this little private school and I was like, I'm just gonna show what's possible and then, you know, create the model. We're now in our 10th year of feeding the kids, so we know 100% it works. And our goal has been to go into a private school and show that this can be replicated as, as best as possible into a public school system. So we have worked across the last 2, 2 and a half years with a school in Florida, a public charter school where they're feeding 2,700 kids a day. And, they found us 3 years ago wanting— the head of school is very enlightened and has this amazing school, and it's 65% to 70% below the poverty line, just very passionate about providing the healthiest environment for these kids. And, she reached out saying, we want to increase the nutrient density. And, she came across School of Lunch online. So, the first step was they sent their food service director to come to our training academy. which is a 5-night intensive where we train on these values and all these, how to make these nutrient-dense foods and source them. And then, the next year, we raised funds through the nonprofit to bring back 10 of their staff, from the head of school to the assistant head of school, the chefs, the bakers, the cashiers, the dishwashers, everybody who had a point of contact with the kids, we wanted to bring to be trained so that, again, it's this united front. And, we've worked across the last 2 years to really take our menus and put them into their public school, the National School Lunch Program. And so, of course, when the dietary guidelines changed and the pyramid flipped, that was huge because it aligned so much with our menus. Now, they didn't lift the saturated fat cap on the dietary guidelines, so we have to adjust the fat. We, at our private school, we're allowed to do whatever we want, right? We don't have those restrictions. So, but we've worked within their compliance tools to make sure that our menus can go in there. So this school is pushing the boundaries of what Secretary Kennedy and the new dietary guidelines are asking. This is going to take a while for the systems to upgrade. It's complicated with all the compliance, but they're doing it. So we're working really hard through our nonprofit to support this project so that we have the blueprint for a public school system to say to schools across the country, like, this is possible. It takes work for sure, but it's the culture change, it's the training, it's the education of the why we're doing this. It's the parents, it's the kids, it's the staff, it's the whole thing. But it's a beautiful process and we just have to be in it.

Alice Waters started this work in California so long ago. Like, it's amazing that we still haven't seen movement. What do you think is blocking this? Is it the food pyramid? Like, as you pointed out, the food pyramid, People don't realize this, but it's dictating policy left and right. So clearly, you couldn't have brought in this type of food when the pyramid was the other way. So is that the only piece that's restricting these kind of programs from entering the zeitgeist, or where are the limitations?

It's so complicated now. I mean, yes, the food pyramid is— that shift is huge. That is like a big win for schools, although the not lifting the saturated fat cap handcuffed everybody right there. But there's also not a lot of scratch cook kitchens. If you don't have a scratch cook kitchen, like when I was back in Massachusetts almost 20 years ago, they built 3 brand new elementary schools and put in all reheating kitchens. The cost of schools across the country having to transition back to scratch cook kitchens is a big deal, but that's what they're pushing for right now, which is exciting. It's going to take time again. But there are several factors. There's the contracts with the Ciscos of the world that are supplying all these processed packaged foods. But at the same time, what we found in Florida is that we go right in and work with the Ciscos and start with nutrition equivalency. So let's just get the nutrition right and order from the same system so we don't have to shake up everything. And then you can work on the next level, you know, of like sourcing it better or locally or organic. But you want to get that, those macros, right? Right. You want to have those kids be satiated all day.

But that's such an amazing point. And now that you say that, I'm like, oh my gosh, I remember that type of kitchen from my daughter's elementary school. Most of these school kitchens are just, you said, what, what is it called?

Reheat? Reheating kitchens. Yeah.

Yeah. And I remember that everything that they cooked Or I can't even really say that word cooked. Everything they reheated was— it was all frozen stuff that they reheated.

My neighbor who's in— she was in 4th grade last year, I think. I like— she went undercover for me and brought home school lunch for like a whole week. And James, it was like, it was so incredibly disheartening. It was just like, really, guys? Like, I just think the adults are so disconnected and, and in a system that is working I mean, it's not working because it's hurting our children, but it's working in the sense of efficiency. It's not real food, and it's all in plastic. The kids think it's disgusting. It's like there's no love. It's just, we have to feed the kids, we have to comply with this, this, this. Everything's a checklist. There's no intuition, it's just like a system. So, we have to kind of break out of that and see more clearly of like, people say, oh, it's so expensive, and how can you do this? But, it's like the cost is our children's health. So we have to figure it out, right? Like what we're doing isn't working.

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I mean, that's complicated as well. We spend a lot of money on labor because we want to— we're making everything from scratch, but it's different from the reimbursements from the federal system. Some of the reimbursements include labor, some of them don't. So some of them have more money to spend on food than others. So it's like, again, all depends on the school and how the school is prioritizing it. Because in Florida, you know, they're raising money for equipment to keep bumping up their scratch cooking abilities. So, you know, you can get creative on all sorts of levels to apply for grants. I mean, if it's a priority, I mean, Alice Waters told me, I got to meet her last year or the year before and have dinner with her. And she said to me, and with an enlightened head of school, anything is possible. And I have found that to be so true. If you don't have an enlightened head of school, even at the wealthiest private school, It's just like not possible. They don't care. It's not a priority.

That is so interesting cuz, uh, I have heard that as well with corporations. So for example, McDonald's, I don't know if they still do, but at one point they were focusing on humanely raised meat and they didn't have to, but it was because the CEO at the time, it mattered to him. And so because a corporation like McDonald's cared about that during that period, humanely treated meat because the entire industry switched and was basically trying to make sure that everything was labeled humanely treated just to get, you know, in the McDonald's, uh, zygote. So I know that a lot of parents rely on school lunches, the, the school lunch that this, the district provides because of cost. But for the parent that can't afford to feed their kid lunches and they're in the public school system, Do you just advise, like, bring your lunch, bring your food from home? Like, don't even, don't even go that route?

Yeah, actually, it's funny. Sally Fallon, the head of the Weston Price Foundation, probably 20 years ago, she came to Massachusetts and I was newly into my, I'm gonna change school lunches. And I remember driving her to, she was gonna go speak to a women's hockey team at the high school. And I was, I had her in the car, like, by myself. And I was like, oh. And I was just like, you know, I really wanna change school lunches and, I'm on a mission. And she literally was just like, feed your children well, pack their lunches because it's such a beast. And so I think if you can take control of that situation and you have an option, you're going to have much better nutrition going into your kids if you pack it from home, hands down. I mean, there's some parents who say like, oh, I let my kids eat it once a week, or the kid wants to feel part of things, but— Overall, I would say there's not much nutrition in the food, so you're way better off packing it from home, and you can do it quite affordably from home too.

So, one of the struggles with making school lunches from home is the hot and cold thing. You know, like, a lot of real food is hot because otherwise, what's the cold lunch? It's a sandwich with processed meats. You can't really send them with sushi unless you're really like putting like ice packs in it, right? So that limitation of like, they don't have a place to reheat things. Some kids are sensitive to like, if something was hot and then it's cold, they just— the texture, you know? So how does a parent solve those pieces?

Yeah, believe me, I'm sometimes like, I mean, I have 5 kids and they're all grown up now, but I was like, I'd rather cook for 150 than make 5 School lunches. My husband would be like, just send them all with the same thing and send them on their way. And I'm like, it doesn't work that way. One likes this and one likes that. And then when it comes home uneaten, you're like, oh. I get that whole battle. There are some great things now with the little bento boxes. Everything has coolers with it. You can have thermoses that keep things hot. So leftovers are a good option. And it's interesting, sometimes you find kids that are from other countries that are just so used to eating, you know, regular food with their family, like the dinner becomes what they're taking for lunch the next day, and that's normalized. So, if we can normalize that again, leftovers are a great option. I mean, there's certain things that kids don't mind eating cold, like—

Salads.

Well, salads and stuff, but even like sometimes like meatballs or things like that, you know, they're not like super opposed to it. It depends on the kid. But, as long as you're getting good proteins and fats, like if you eat like cheese, but you definitely want to keep it cold because it's like the cheese will start to melt and then it can be really gross. So keeping it— and then they're running around with it, like shaking around everywhere in there. So, you know, in a perfect world, it would just be like delivered to their desk and from the fridge, you know, but that's not how it works. So you have to kind of do your best to get the system like the, like the little bento box with the cooler bag that goes around it. I mean, I had all the little kind of standup. Zipper cooler bag things and did the best I could.

If a family changes only 3 things, where should they start?

I would say start with finding one thing in your local food system, supporting one local farmer. If you can find eggs down the road or a local rancher, just scratch the surface. Like, always say, like, there's good people doing great things everywhere. And the Weston A. Price Foundation is a great resource for that because they have chapter leaders all around the world. That their sole purpose is to connect you to your local food system. So if you go to the Weston A. Price Foundation website, look for a local chapter leader that's closest to you, then you reach out to them. They'll tell you where to find the best meats, the best milk, the best eggs, all that stuff. Start with one thing. Start switching out. You can't do it all at once. Sitting down to family dinner, I think, is so important. One of the most important things is just a chance to decompress, to take time to check in with one another. And when your nervous system is calm, and you're eating a decent meal together, like, it's just so much, so much happens at the dinner table, as you know. So, I think that's also super important. And then, I guess, maybe going through the pantry, and just saying, like, how much processed packaged foods do I have? Like, start to read the labels of your condiments, and, you know, is there soybean oil, high fructose corn syrup? Can you get rid of the things that have the, The main offenders in them from the bad oils and the sugars and just different dyes and stuff like that. So the more you can start to eliminate the processed packaged things and go into the whole foods, but again, do one thing at a time. You know, if you're a fully processed packaged family, I mean, some people are like that. They want to clear everything out and start fresh, and that's great. But if you're overwhelmed by the whole thing, just like start. With where you can replace one thing.

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I mean, I've said this many times, like, the kids that I feed, they just seem very stable. They're not having, like, meltdowns. They're not depressed. They're, like, basically very joyful, energetic, yet calm when they need to be kids. I mean, part of that is we're a nature-based school too, so they're outside. We serve them outside, so they're, like, in nature a lot, which is so nice. But they're able to focus. Like, the teachers give that feedback that they're More grounded, more focused. I just don't notice behavior problems. And like I said, that one kid, I mean, it was just like he was hangry. He was honestly like, didn't know what was happening in his body. He was like, he was just starving. Once you satiate them, they have a steady stream of energy. And I always say this on podcasts, the very first year we did the school lunch program, a 6th grader said to me, like unprompted, I used to feel like this all day long, up and down, up and down. And now I just feel like this. Steady stream of energy. So kids don't necessarily know what's happening in their body or why it's happening, but they just— so we're gifting them this gift of what it feels like to feel good. So then, like, I've seen it with my own kids, they go off into the world, out to college, and all of a sudden they're like, oh, like, this food makes me feel horrible. So if they don't have— like, most people don't know that, what it feels like to feel good. Most adults don't even know. So when you give them that gift, they have something to return back to.

And you mentioned that at the school, you emphasize the kids kind of tasting things, even on a, you know, just a little taste to make sure. But do you find that when they're first getting used to the, this different way of eating at school, that there's stress related to it?

I mean, I don't push them that hard. So it never becomes like a battle. If they're like, no, no, I really don't want to try it. I'm like, okay, you know, maybe tomorrow. So it's just about really making it not stressful and making it super fun. And they're like running up to the line and they trust us and we're all smiling at them and just encouraging them to, you know, they'll put like 3, we'll have 3 different dressings and they'll put 3 different dots and they'll swipe it and then they'll think about it and they'll be like, I like this one. And then, you know, then the kid behind them is watching that. And so it's like, it's just, it's about taking the stress out of it. And just making it really joyful.

How long are the lunches at your school, your current school?

We start at 11:50, and the goal is to be done serving by 12:30. And then they basically have until like almost 1 to be sitting down and eating. So—

That's a big contrast, right? Because the public schools give you 25, 30 minutes.

Yeah. And I have a friend who works in a public school, She's an assistant food service director and they feed 17,000 kids, not all at one school, but in the district. But, she said they have 3 seconds per kid to get them through the line. So, if you think about that, I say to the school, they've even pushed like, you guys, you got to get them through the line, you got to get them through. And, I'm like, I need to take my time with the littles. At least the little kids are so important, even if we've run over a little bit, because you don't want to make it stressful because this is their first view of all of this, then you want to have that first experience be really great. And so sometimes we've gotten like that, you guys are taking too long. But it's just kind of like, well, this is really important for the success of the program. So we have—

If the lunch timeframe doesn't change, how do you serve scratch food?

You can do it. You got to get them through the line. Another thing I think that is so big is having the adults eat with the kids because I've seen it over and over again, like, you know, in the public school system, like, we don't serve dessert, we don't serve fruit at our school. Maybe like after lunch or for snack, we'll do fruits. They have to serve fruit in public school. So often they'll put an apple at the end. So the little 5-year-old sits down, starts with the apple, you know, they have like missing teeth, it takes them 30 minutes to eat an apple. And then they didn't have time to eat their food. So there has to be some education at the table as well. Like, okay, let's start with this. And then you get to have your apple or whatever it is because they're just, they're so slow and they're talking and they're, you know, it's just, it's so fast. So that if you have an adult there that can be the model and the encouragement for the child to make sure that they get that nourishment in them so that they can run around and play all day. Learn, right? So it's a big culture shift. Like my son's lacrosse coach said a couple years ago, he said culture precedes success. And I had like this light bulb go off and I was like, that is why we are successful, 'cause we have a kitchen culture where it's like check your ego at the door, mission is the boss. Like we're just about making the best foods we can for these kids and getting it into them each day. And then there's a food culture at the school where this is valued and everyone's participating. So that helps with the success of the whole program. So if you don't have people that are invested in changing the system and the why behind it, then it will take longer or it'll be harder. But that's why everyone's kind of gotta like, for the future of our children, you know, humanity basically, it's like, let's all get in this to win it, you know?

That's a really cool novel idea. It's like, have the adults eat with the kids. I mean, modeling in the home is key, as we know. So it's like, why would it stop at school? I've never heard it talked about I've never heard it talked about like that, and I've also never seen it. I mean, all teachers are either off in their own world because they want a break, and then the people that are kind of guiding the cafeteria, that's not the time they eat because they're, you know, overseeing the kids.

Yeah, I mean, it is hard because even our teachers, they don't get a break from the kids. Like, their lunch break is kind of their break as well, but they are sitting with the kids, but they don't really want to always, like, manage everything. But again, these kids are pretty well behaved and they're pretty grounded, but you can imagine I can imagine sitting down at a table with kids that are bonkers. That would be stressful for the teacher. But again, this school in Florida, they have very clear rules that the kids all understand. It's a system that's in place for success. They have little kids that, I forget what they call them, but they have their little sashes on that go around and clear the plates. And it's like an honor to have that job. So these kids are invested in the success of it as well, and they're excited to do their jobs. Again, an enlightened head of school who thinks about these, the systems and getting them in place for success, then makes all the difference.

Oh, I love that. What traditional food would you bring back to every child's diet if you could?

I thought about this. Organ meats for sure. And, it's not just because I'm talking to you because it's like they've just been forgotten and dismissed. And our ancestors knew how valuable they were. They really did. And they were just incorporated and it was so normalized. And now it's so— everyone is squeamish about it, but it's mostly the adults, right? If you start to— like my kids now, their favorite food is tongue, cow tongue. And when I first made it, like one of the farmer's market guys was telling me like he grew up with it and he's like, it's the best, it's my favorite. I'm like, I'm gonna make this. I went home and I was so freaked out by peeling a tongue that I was like, I'm doing this wrong. I don't know what I'm doing. And I like threw it away. And now I'm like, you know, 10 years later, it's their favorite food, you know? And getting liver, my boys are like, Mom, just put it into the bolognese or put it into the meat, the hamburgers or meatballs, whatever. My daughter is like jumping for joy when pâté is served. My boys don't want pâté as much. They'd rather have it mixed into something. But she's like, she'll eat it for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. She just loves liver. So, you know, it's like bringing back these forgotten foods that so valued by our ancestors, I think would make such a difference in the health and well-being, the mental health and physical health of our children.

Did you see clear differences? Because obviously, your, your earlier older kids didn't grow up eating this way, right? You probably learned how to cook this through their childhood, not before, right?

I have triplets, and then 2 more. I had like 5 under 4. So, my 4th baby had eczema head to toe. So, that was like our You know, the light bulb was like, okay, like I put him on raw milk and cod liver oil and that was what healed. He healed like really quickly from that. And so that was my aha moment. So my triplets, I think, were like, maybe they were 4 or 5. And I had started to wake up when they were babies, but it was more like organic processed foods and trying to make their own baby food, stuff like that. I was sort of in the weeds still, but they kind of all got it for most of their lives. I mean, my gosh, I wish I knew this stuff before I even— thought of getting pregnant. And I had infertility for 3 years. So, you know, I was fat-free back in the '90s. Like, I just wish I'd known all of this back then. But that's why we do these talks and talk about it. A woman from Ireland heard me on a podcast, and she had said, oh, I wish I had heard you 15 years earlier, because, you know, she had the same exact story. So when we share our stories is when, you know, we help others to You know, either who are ready for the information to see that there's a different, a different path forward.

So if we change the way one generation of children eats, what do you think changes in the next generation?

We'd be spending so much less time in the doctor's offices and in hospitals and trying to figure out what's wrong with our kids or what's wrong with us. And it would be a much more joyful generation of people. I mean, like, if you're truly nourished, And you're giving birth to healthy next generation of kids, these kids are gonna start out balanced and, you know, with a chance to thrive. And then they're being fed well. Right now, these kids are starting out in the negative, basically, you know, trying to catch up and getting hammered from day one. So I think it will be just a much more joyful world, and we'd be able to spend the time doing the things that we love instead of spending time trying to heal ourselves.

Yeah. What has to change for people to understand that you're either paying with the food you buy today or you're paying with hospital bills later, but you're going to pay either way?

I mean, we had a whole big health journey with my family, and it's like once you lose your health, you spend all your time and all your money chasing health. And, you know, when you have a cancer diagnosis, you're against like life and death, you know? And then so you're like, oh, and then everyone has a solution for you. And there's all the holistic things you can do that are not covered by insurance. And then there's like, you know, the whole insurance battle that doesn't even cover half the stuff that you have to do to survive or you think you have to do. And so it's— and then it's just like so stressful. So if you can just start to prioritize, again, making those small changes bit by bit so that your house becomes a real food house, and it doesn't have to be complicated. Like I used to interview elders from around the world, and one of my French elders, Before she died, she said, Hilary, never forget simplicity is gourmet. And that's like our tagline on our shirts, everything, because it doesn't have to be complicated. Like, we just overthink everything. But if you slow roast a pork shoulder and you surround it with some, you know, maybe some rice or potatoes and some broccoli and a salad, or even just some broccoli, you can have meals for days, right? Like, if you cook once, eat several times. It doesn't have to be super expensive, and nothing has to be super fancy. It's like the important thing is getting in the nutrition. So again, if your kids have these expectations, or you have this expectation that your dinner has to be Instagram-worthy, or— I mean, the pictures that I take of my food, I'm always just like, this is so beautiful. And it's just like eggs with some carrots on the side and a little basil or whatever and sauerkraut. And it's just so beautiful, but it's nothing complicated. So the cost thing, I think, again, is a mindset. Of course, there's all different levels of people who are struggling to feed their families well and have access to healthy foods. But those of us who can, we need to fight for it so that everyone has access to good foods, and that everyone understands the power of deep nutrition, and that the kids that don't have access to it, that we're supporting them with nutrient-dense foods in school where they are being asked to sit and learn. And that's where we all work together to support. Everybody, right? But I think it's, again, it's almost like the enlightened head of school. You have to be the enlightened parent that says, this is really important to us and this is our top priority. So I'm gonna cut, whether it's one kid's activity or my trip to Starbucks every day, or we're not gonna go on an expensive family vacation. Like these things, you know, it's like you get one chance to grow the, your kids' brains and bodies. You don't really get a do-over. So you will be rewarded in the end with your time is spent with your kids and doing the things that you love. And it's like really painful to have a sick child and, or a sick spouse. And so it's like, you know, I mean, I can, I can't say it enough that it should be the number one priority. And then obviously try not to make it stressful. Just bring the joy with it and, And just do the best you can every day. You know, it's a lot. And also, one tip I would say is that oftentimes feeding the family falls on the shoulder of one. It falls on the mom usually who's trying to— sometimes we're working full-time, we didn't learn how to cook growing up, so we're trying to figure it out. Then there's all this information everywhere. And so if we can make it a family affair where both parents are involved, like, you know, like, oh, I'm going to take a chuck roll out of the freezer, I'm going to salt it, and then if you could throw it in the oven and we'll cook it overnight, then we'll have— dinner for 2 or 3 days or leftovers for the school lunches. There has to be communication, and that's what used to happen. It was like everybody had their roles as part of it. Get your kids helping with composting or doing dishes or setting the table or cracking eggs, whatever they can do to be involved with that nourishment of the family, I think makes all the difference.

So, you have a nonprofit. How can people listening— well, A, mention what does the nonprofit do, but then, How can people support it?

So the nonprofit is called Soul West Foundation. So School of Lunch is where we do consulting and training. So we are available to consult with public schools and private schools. And then the nonprofit Soul West Foundation has helped support our program in Florida. So that's through private funding that we've been able to do a lot of work with training the Florida school and the culture change. And then as well, we've also had a lot of people sponsor people to be trained at our training academy. So a lot of people who wanna get trained can't afford to come to the academy. And I always say like, I want those people who want to come desperately because those are the changemakers. Those are the people that are desperate for the information and they're gonna go out and be the ripple. So the nonprofit funds all sorts of projects to help get real food, real nourishment into, you know, the next generation of kids. to our children. And so it's very important work. We're really mission-driven. I've realized that after 10 years at School of Lunch, like it's not a moneymaker to be a lunch lady at my kids' school, but I just feel so passionate about it and I know what's right. I know what's right. So it's exciting when you can have different partnerships with people who believe in the same mission, who are, you know, have more disposable income and wanna fund projects. We're coming out with toolkits for parents through the nonprofit that will help a parent navigate, you know, if they're like, I want to change school lunches like I did so long ago. We don't want them spending 2 or 3 years, you know, banging their head against the wall and end up getting nowhere because that again is a time suck and it's stressful and it's frustrating and you don't end up with a, you know, you don't reach your goal. So how do they assess the situations properly? to be most efficient and effective. And if they don't have a scratch cook kitchen or they don't have an enlightened head of school, you might have to try a different way, or you might have to make your lunches for a while, or whatever it is. So you have to know where to start so that you can be effective. So we're coming out with toolkits for parents, and that's all through the nonprofit. So yeah, so please, people, check it out.

Yeah, we'll put the link down in the show notes. And then School of Lunch is not just for people that run school programs. So what kind of people go through it and what do they leave with?

Yeah. So, I mean, I know that's one of the confusing things because people think it's just for school chefs, but we have people from 16 years old to 75 years old, like grandparents, young kids, a lot of young 20-somethings who know there's a better path forward and they're just craving the information. A lot of parents, people with sick kids, people who are sick themselves, We also have school chefs. We've had heads of school come. It's really for anybody who's interested in learning about traditional foods as medicine, really. I mean, as a way of living and eating and thriving free of disease. So we go through, it's a 5-night intensive. We go through from soaking and sprouting your nuts and seeds and grains and legumes to making 100% whole grain, locally grown, freshly milled sourdough bread. Fermented vegetables, raw dairy, fermented raw dairy, meat stocks, bone broths, slow roasted meats, organ meats. We take people to the farmer's market, teach them how to interact with their local food system, how to ask the right questions, teach them about how to cook all those beautiful foods up and how simple it is. And then we have a whole lifestyle component where we have primal movement. So teaching people, you know, how our ancestors used to move. We didn't sit all day, we didn't stare at screens, we didn't wear shoes that were like constricting our feet, getting up with the sunrise. We do sunrise walks, we do breathwork, cold adaptation. So giving people tools to put in their toolkits, you know, like the breath is so important and it's something that's with us 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, right? So stress is a huge factor in dis-ease. And so when you can return to your breath, it's like such a tool to have in your toolkit. So people leave empowered and connected They find their tribe. Like, once you're in Soul Fam, you're in the Soul Fam for life, we say. So, they leave feeling like they have the knowledge, they're going to go home, and they're going to practice. You know, you can't do everything again all at once. So, you might start with making your own kefir, you might start with making a bone broth, or finding your local eggs, like, whatever it is. But then, you're connected to a family of people who are all trying to do the same thing. And so, if people step into schools, their homes, churches, It's like get your home set first, get you and your home set, and then you ripple out into your community and do do what you can.

That is an incredible tool. I hope everyone listening takes that in that this is not just a program around school lunches, that this is a lifestyle, life-changing program that anyone can use.

It's so fun. It's like the best week. I mean, Chef, my partner, is always like. Every Sunday when it starts, he's just like, I'm never going to do this again because it's so much work to pull it off. And then by every Thursday, he's like, when are we doing this again? It's just like, it's so fun. Everyone just loves it. And I just think people are craving the information and they're craving connection and they're craving that deep nourishment. And so even in 5 days, even the Florida people, all of them had light bulbs going off, but just different health issues that were improved within just 5 days or 5 nights of being at the academy.

Final question. If you could wave a magic wand, bring back one ancestral practice, what would it be and why?

Get outside and be in nature as much as possible and connect to the land. And, you know, we're part of it. We're not separate. And I say this at the training academy, actually, it's the one thing that I want them to take away is that we are Mother Nature's miracle. And so we look at things in nature with awe and reverence of just like how miraculous, like a butterfly or a flower and its symmetry and the colors. It's so magical, right? But like, if we could flip the mirror on ourselves and see, like unzip ourselves and see how miraculous we are and how every second of every day, there are all these systems that are working tirelessly to keep us joyful and walking and talking and playing sports and being with our friends, all the things. And if we had that same reverence and respect for ourselves, it would be a different world, right? So if we can get out in nature and see ourselves as part of it and not separate, and that there's this whole closed-loop system that is really powerful, right? And so one day we will return to the earth and nourish the soil with our bodies. And so it's all life and death. Everything is a part of this beautiful closed-loop system, this cycle. So when you're in nature, You start to recognize that there's something so magnificent and so much larger than, than us that we're a part of and that we get to be a part of. It's pretty cool. But when we're stuck inside on screens and in office buildings with all the lights, it's just like it's hard to connect, right? We just become more disconnected.

100%. Well, Hillary, thank you so much for your time. I, I always love seeing you, but it's so great to just get this concentrated amount of talking with you and just hearing deeper of your story and ideas. How can people join this program? Where can they find you?

So I'm Chef Hilary Boynton on Instagram. I'm always on there doing fun things. Right now we're doing back-to-school program. I don't know when this will air, but it's really fun highlighting different people across the month of September. So Chef Hilary Boynton, then schooloflunch.com. And then Soul West Foundation is the nonprofit. And we're also on Facebook. We have a School of Lunch Facebook community now that we just started. So people don't have to be a graduate to join. We just want to bring people into the fold and expose more people to what we're doing. So yeah, Instagram, website, nonprofit, Facebook. And I'm just, I just joined Substack. Yeah, it's called The Last Kitchen because when we were Talking about it, Chuck and I were talking about it. It's just like we're holding on to these values that seem like nobody is really caring about anymore. And we're like, are we the last kitchen to be doing this? But we don't want it to be the last. We want to empower it to create thousands more. So I'm writing now more. And then I also have a cookbook called The Heal Your Gut Cookbook. So that's on Amazon.

Yeah, one of the earlier books talking about ancestral foods. So yes, way to go. Thank you again. Thank you so much for your time. Thanks for sharing your gifts. And thank you all for joining us on this journey. As usual, stay curious and be well. Treat yourself well, treat others well, and we'll see you next time. Thank you so much for joining me on Everyday Ancestral. If you enjoyed this episode, hit subscribe so you don't miss the next one. You can find the show You can find show notes, links, and resources mentioned at eatpluck.com. That's E-A-T-P-L-U-C-K dot com. And hey, if you know someone who'd get something out of this, share it with them too. Stay curious, live well, and keep it ancestral.