Organ Meats INSANELY Clever Hacks: Chef James Barry

What's up, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome back to the Boost your biology podcast. Today I have a very special guest in the studio. We have chef James Barry. Welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much for having me, Lucas.

Awesome. So maybe we've been wanting to line this podcast up for a while, and we've managed to finally squeeze a time in. But, James, did you want to maybe let my audience know a little bit about, I guess, your. Yourself and what your. What your mission is?

Yeah. So I've been a private. I was a professional chef for 20 years, cooked for a bunch of celebrities. I'll name drop, since that's what people like. I cooked for Tom Cruise for a few years when he was with Katie Holmes, and I cooked for Gerard Butler, George Clooney. I even had the pleasure of meeting Barbra Streisand. And I cooked for Fergie of the Black Eyed Peas previously and a bunch of other celebrities. But mostly what I've been on the mission of is really just trying to support people's health. In my 20 years, I've seen lots of trends. I've tried lots of things myself, because one of the things when you're a private chef is you can't just read about the current trending diet. You have to actually know how to cook it. And I had to know how to cook it well. So what I would normally do is treat myself as a guinea pig and try the diet myself, make sure I could master making the recipes, make them taste good, make sure that my clients were satisfied with my work. And in the process of doing that, I felt like I really saw through a lot of the bs. I saw, like, what truly worked, what didn't work. And I've always kind of had a kind of, like, really a very simple message, which is just focus on real food. And this was 20 years ago. And at the time, it's just, you know, everyone was into whatever the trending diet was, and it was like, it's still then. Now it's coming back to, well, but what are you eating? Are you eating processed foods? Are you. Are you eating foods that have ingredients versus that are ingredients? Because at the end of the day, that is what's going to move the needle the most, is what you're actually putting through your mouth.

And what about, like, the. Let's talk about that evolution. I mean, for. For yourself, being a chef, like, in terms of some of the ingredients that are being used over the years, like, how has that evolved?

Yeah, well, I mean, I think particularly around the topic of Health, right? So when I first got into the business, healthy was grilled chicken breast, steamed vegetables, and a baked potato. And it really kind of had that concept of, like, blandness. So when I first became a chef, that's what I became really known for. Like, oh, he can make healthy food taste really delicious. And so what I was doing was I was making lots of my own sauces. I mean, I was making everything from scratch. And I was always using real food. So even if I was, let's say, like sweet, sweetening a dressing, I would use a date. I wouldn't use sugar, I wouldn't use anything ultra processed or anything like that. I would try to use real foods. Sometimes I use carrots, because carrots can be sweet. Sometimes I would caramelize onions. When you caramelize an onion, that makes. That brings the sweetness out of the onions. And then I would use that to blend into sauces instead of adding ingredients that I didn't think were very good for people. So that was my main focus. But then it was when I had kids that I really started to go like, well, wait a second, you know, what's the kind of focus that any parent really wants for their children? Is they want them to be healthy and happy, right? We want them to thrive. So I was like, okay, what are the most nutrient dense foods? And that's where I started to shift my focus a little bit more towards really trying to be efficient with the foods that I made. Like, what, what could I. What ingredients could I choose that were going to be the most nutrient dense? And what I identified was organ meats. And so that's kind of the road I started to focus on. But here's the thing. There's three major hurdles with organ meats. And I'm sure everyone listening to this already knows what they are, but I'll. I'll say them. One is the taste. Everyone thinks, you know, most people think they're gross. And I'm actually curious to learn what Australians think of them after I finish this. But the other thing is most people don't know how to cook them. And then the third is people struggle with sourcing. So I made it my mission to kind of solve those three issues. But to my question, how do Australians look at organizer?

I'd say probably nine out of 10 people, James, I'd say are really struggling in terms of the, the taste profile. Like, most people just dislike the flavor, and like you said, they've got no idea how to cook them. And then when you mention them to people, they're Just, they immediately, like, frown their face, and they're like, no, I'm not. I'm not trying that. Like, I'm, you know, so.

Not too different from America.

Yeah. Unless you're in the. Unless you're in the, like, the weird biohacker crew or community where it's like, oh, yeah, everyone's talking about it. Everyone's trying it. I think the one particular organ meat that most individuals actually really enjoy is, like, the chicken heart. Chicken hearts, like, here in Australia, like, they're. They're actually found in almost every single supermarket, which is a surprise. Yeah. But that's, like, an easy one to cook.

Yeah, totally. I mean, chicken hearts are bland. They're. They're fairly mild. They're even sweet. They have a sweetness to them, and then they take on the flavors of whatever you're cooking them. And I. I always advise when, like, I have this kind of, like, stages of easing people into organ meats and. And chicken hearts are right up there with, like, the second or third stage because they are closest to muscle meat. They're very mild, and you just need to chop them up. You know, one thing that people forget, one of the hurdles with any new food is taste and texture. Right. And that's the big issue people have with organ meats, is that texture. It's just different. So anything you can do to kind of incorporate that texture with textures that you already are familiar with. So, like, if you're making a spaghetti sauce or something like that, you just chop them up like you would a mushroom, toss them in there. You don't have to use 10. Just pick two or three. You know, I mean, like. Like, I think that's the other thing I see a lot of is here in the US Particularly, there's that mentality of, like, go big or go home. And it's like, there's kind of nothing in human nature that really thrives in extremity. Now, I know that when we talk about many biohackers, we're talking about doing extremities to challenge the body, but we're not doing those things all day. We're doing them for a few minutes. Right. We're doing them in moderation or we're doing them very briefly. I can't think of one thing that we're choosing to be in extremity for very long periods of time. Unless you're, you know, you might. Maybe you're on a trek, but even then it's not your entire year. It's very specific amount of time. Right. Extremities in my judgment, do not work well with the human body or the human condition.

You're exactly right. And like, when we look at those extremities, it's like if they work, they're going to work maybe for a short period of time, but in the long run, it might throw off a certain system, you might get toxicity. Particularly like in the case of liver. I mean, this is a really big issue, which is like guys like Paul Saladino, things like that, they're sort of advocating eating a lot of liver. And we see both you and I know that the vitamin A content of liver is actually quite high. So in order to actually receive the benefits of liver, you, you actually don't need a lot, right?

Absolutely. And here's the thing that he doesn't talk about as much, which I wish he would more, but it would be contradictory towards one of his businesses, which is hard soil. When you swallow something in capsule form, you are bypassing your lingual neural response. So the neuro, lingual response is basically the communication pathway of eating, right? It's when we, it starts outside the body, but once it gets inside our mouth, there's communication that happens as we masticate, as we taste things through our taste receptors. And that communication is very evolved. I mean, it's been around, we're in Homo sapien bodies, right? So it's been around for hundreds of thousands of years. It's been in development for that long. So when, when you swallow something without chewing it, without actually tasting it, you completely bypass that. And when you bypass that, it's guesswork. Like, and I use salt as an example all the time. If I put salt on your tongue, your body will tell you when it's enough. And most people, you do three dips on your tongue, you're done. And in fact, the salt starts to taste different. And the same thing happens with organs. If you're getting too much, if you have, if you're, let's say, too high in iron, if you're getting too much vitamin, the organ meat will start to taste even more metallic. It will start to taste different. But you don't know that when it's in caps form. I could put, you could swallow a salt tablet, get zero reaction, and then 30 minutes later go, why am I bloated? Oh, I got too much or something. And I get this feedback all the time from people that take organ meat capsules. They tell me I felt so nauseous after I took it. And I said, yeah, because you probably don't need six capsules. And then they're like, well, but why does the back of the bottle say that? I said, because they're trying to sell capsules. Like, he's act. Acting like we're supposed to have 2 ounces of organ meats a day. It's like, in. What. Who said that? Who, who, who, who told you that? Like, I don't trust that information. Because if you think ancestrally, like, and I, and this is just like, let's just use our emotional intelligence here. Like, think about ancestrally what used to happen. Okay, so you would have a small tribe, maybe let's say just 21 people, right? The, the people that were the hunters would go out and sometimes it would take them a week to catch the food, sometimes even longer. Right. And a lot of times they would fast while they were on that hunt, because when they fast, their, their senses heightened and it enables them to listen, you know, better, enables them to do the things that they need to do to hunt. But what's the first thing they do once they kill that animal is they replenish their stores. So they eat the heart or the liver right away. So that means that by the time they bring that dressed animal back to the tribe, it only has one heart and one liver. So that means there is no more liver for people. So it's kind of like this idea that we should all be eating rib eyes and liver. It's like, in what reality is that? And then also. So first of all, the tribe was eating the whole animal. They were getting the different minerals and nutrients from the entire animal. And sometimes some people got things, and sometimes they got other things. And usually the most kind of prized possessions went to the leader of the tribe. And then other times, certain very nutrient dense products went to the people in need, whether it was the pregnant people in the tribe or the people that were elderly. So we are really formulated around this whole animal nutrition. And that's what I'm pushing. And so this, that's the one piece about the current kind of lexicon of what we should be eating. I just don't feel like it's present because people are focusing on one aspect of that animal. And to me, that's not where it's at. It's more about that whole animal nutrition. You need to be eating it so that way your body can tell you when it should stop or when it wants more. And then, you know, ultimately, I would say that the other kind of myth around organ meats is that, you know, they're, they're the, the filter organs. And so they are storing toxins and if you eat them, you're going to get toxins. You know, I would say that's probably the other thing. Wouldn't you say that? That's a common belief?

Yeah, yeah. A lot of people would, would perceive that as like, all right, so the liver is the master detox organ in the, in the human body and also in the animal body. So then would it, what would happen if the, if the animal had a lot of toxins, wouldn't the liver then hyper. Accumulate these toxins? But, but both you and I know that the, if we consume an animal's liver, we're also consuming a lot of the antioxidant factors, the, the peptides, the superoxide dismutase, all of these, you know, novel compounds that actually, it's the theory of like, cures, like, which is really, it's ubiquitous in, in homeopathy. And I really believe in this. It's the doctrine of signatures as well. Right? Like, it's the organ.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I love how you worded it. I, I say like, supports, like. But I love how you worded it. But yeah, absolutely believe that. And Chinese medicine is completely built off of that concept. And, and really, I mean, you all. We also know that where the toxins actually get stored is not necessarily in the organs themselves, because if they got. The organs would break down. Right. And the body is more miraculous than that. And the body is designed to survive. That's why we're able to live so long with chronic illness. Right. It's because the body's so miraculous. So if the body store those toxins in the organs, then it would break down fast. So where does it actually store the toxins? It stores it in the fat. You know, that's really where you got to be careful. If you're hugely overweight and you lose weight too fast, you can. And your elimination pathways aren't open, you could actually make yourself quite sick.

In terms of like, your interest in organ meats. Like, how did that, how did that evolve? Like, in terms of. How did you come up with the idea of like, let's condense it down into like a spice into like a powdered spice blend? Like, how did that come about?

Yeah, I still kind of pinch myself all the time that I was the first one to think this up, because it's, it's pretty rare these days to come up with any new product that's actually naturally made. Most of the new products are laboratory made. So I, what ultimately I was trying to solve was that that not only the taste hurdle, but really the cooking hurdles. And I recognize that, you know, I really am a big believer in ancestral eating. I think that there's a lot of answers in the past, but I am not a, I'm not a believer that we need to actually try to recreate the past, if that makes sense. Like, I think we, we need to take ownership that we live in modern times, that life isn't the way it used to be, but we can still take the best from the past and bring it into the present. We just may want to incorporate modern techniques. And so freeze drying and powdering is a modern technique of preservation. And so I just realize, well, when you buy a capsule, it's the moisture's already removed from that organ. It's, it's freeze dried, it's powdered, they put in a capsule because they haven't made it taste good. Well, what if I took other things that are, you know, have little moisture, like granulated onion, garlic, paprika, like seasonings and herbs and I combine them all and then suddenly now you have this, this seasoning that you can just sprinkle on anything and you're getting that micro dosing of those organ meats. And of course, that's one of the big kind of questions we get is people go like, well, but how much am I really getting? And once again, I go back to, well, how much are you eating right now? And most people are eating zero amounts of organ meats. So you're either going from zero to okay, I just ate liver and onions or whatever it is, and I did it once. Great, that probably helped you for a few days to maybe a week, you know, But I'm looking for those daily habits, those things that we can do little movements in multiple times in the day that I can just turn the switch on into lifestyle. And that's what I love about this product, Pluck, is that it's an organ based seasoning. So we still have the liver, heart, kidney, spleen, pancreas. We have the five organs in there, freeze dried and powdered from 100% grass for cows, mixed with redmond salt, spices and herbs. Now, this is not a product that I'm saying, well, adopt a new habit, you know, like drink this huge smoothie every day or go outside and jump in an ice bath. You know, I'm not asking you to do anything that's different than what you already do. We already season our food. I'm just saying switch to this and now you're getting the microdosing of Those organ meats, you're getting them frequently which equals cumulative effect. And one of the examples I use of like when, if people ask, well does a cumulative, you know, microdosing really work? I said, well yeah, take a look at glyphosate. I mean glyphosate was microdosing that was minor amounts that were, you know, this started in the late 50s and it was put in Roundup and the, you know, the FDA told us, oh, it's just small amounts. You know, Monsanto convinced the FDA it's just tiny amounts. It's not going to affect human health. And now look at us. It's in everything. It's in our water, our air, our soil, our breast milk is showing up in hummus. It's like you can't get rid of it. And it's hugely affecting human health. So I'm like, okay, let's flip that switch and make microdosing work for us instead of against us.

James, I'm curious, with that process of freeze drying, do you want to sort of explain like what does that process typically look like from like actually capturing the organs from the animal and then converting it into the, into the powdered format?

Yeah. So many of us, including most of the organ meat supplement companies, we're sourcing from New Zealand and one of the reasons we source from New Zealand is because it's an island and it's, they're getting year round grass fed to the cows. Now of course not all farms and I think the Americans have this concept that all farms in America look like the Hobbit movie, you know what I mean? It's like, no, not every farm in New Zealand is doing it right. But the ones we source from are, they are 100% grass fed, pasture raised animals. So what they're doing is they're processing the animal. Now the other really great thing about New Zealand is is that the cattle industry is a major export. It's one of their top three exports. And so they have dialed in the processing plants to basically utilize the entire animal. Now I know a lot of what they, they harvest is shipped to China. I think that's one of their biggest purchasers. But they truly are paving the way and they showing what's possible. You can get pretty much almost every part of that animal and that is not possible in the US I can get brain in New Zealand and you can't get that here in the US for example. So New Zealand is definitely making the whole animal nutrition possible. They also have a really great supply chain setup. So Basically, once that animal has been slaughtered, they're taking those, those organs still raw. Those are, they're, they're frozen. They are then taken, they are processed so they're more uniform size because you can't have large hearts, for example, mixed with livers. And you can't freeze that dry them because they're going to freeze dry at different durations if depending on the size. So they basically streamline it and they make sure they're all processed to the similar size and then they get taken to the freeze dryer where they're then put through that process. And really freeze drying, I would say that raw is the healthiest. You know, it's the most nutrient dense. Freeze drying is still a process of heating, but it's, it's not actually considered. I don't think the USDA sees it as a kill step because it doesn't heat it up to the temperature that the USDA would want it to be heated up to. But we like it. The FDA doesn't mind. And those of us that are kind of nutrient conscious don't mind because we know that freeze drying is going to be the most nutrient dense you can get within that preservation. It's even more nutrient dense than dehydration. So that tells you how much like dehydration is usually about between 120 and 165 degrees, depending on, you know, what the outcome, the desired outcome of it. But freeze drying is even lower than that. So incredibly nutrient dense. Then they powder or desiccated and. And then they blend our mix and then we get it and then we combine it with organic spices and herbs and red mineral salt.

How did you go about, in terms of. I'd imagine as you're going through that stage of formulating the different versions, like coming up with the different ideas, like mixing in different herbs and spices to actually create that flavor. How did you go about that process?

Yeah, so I first created the seasoning blend. So that was, that was key, was making sure that the seasonings themselves tasted good. And then at my first stage was actually trying it with liver because I couldn't find, I couldn't find an organ blend with the five organs that was not encapsulated. I could only find liver. So at first I just did that. And once I figured out like, okay, this is the percentage of liver I could put in the seasonings where they didn't taste like organ meat, that's when I started to know that I was onto something. But once I got access to each individual organ, because they all have different flavors, you know, and textures really. Even in their froze, their freeze dried form, it's totally different textures. Once I got packages of each, then I basically went off taste. So when you get like the capsules, those are usually equal amounts of each one. And one of the reasons I think Paul Saladino was even on Joe Rogan at one point. And Rogan, it was so funny. This was when pluck, it just started and Joe Rogan was like, couldn't I just open the capsule up and put it on my food? And Paul Saladin was like, oh, that would be just gross. And I was like, ah, if only I could get to Joe Rogan and tell him like pluck exists. You just, you just named what pluck is. That's what we're doing. But I, you know, Paul Saldino is right. You know, in a sense when you have. We customized our blend of organ meats for taste. So what's kind of cool? So we have four products. Three of them have the Redmond real salt and different spices and herb combinations. One of them though is called pure and that is just the orgameats. And that one we get feedback is very neutral tasting, which is what I was set out setting out to do. So that you can add it to your meals and even your smoothies. You can add it to things and not have them, you know, pop with that kind of organ metallic taste if that's what it tastes like to people. But that was, that was our, my main way of doing it. And there definitely was a lot of trial and error. There was finding what the percentage I could do. We're at about 17%. I'm trying to get to 20% of organ meats to the seasonings. The, the pure is 100%. But when I say percentages, some people go like, oh, that doesn't seem like a lot or something. But here's I want to stress is like when you have a raw organ 100 organ and you freeze dry it, the loss in water weight leaves about 20% of the organ. So it's extremely concentrated. So 17, 20%. That is significant. Um, and like I said, I believe that our bodies are going to simulate it better. They're, they're going to. You know, we all know this. If you get too much of something, this is the age, age old joke, right? If you, you take in all these expensive supplements and then people joke, oh well, that's just creating expensive pee, right? Because the body will not allow itself to get more too much of than what it can handle, right? It will basically pee it out. It will try to basically get it out of your body before, if it can, if your elimination pathways are working. And, and so really, in my judgment, it's like getting little amounts is probably going to be more economical. It's going to be more efficient for your body to assimilate it than getting, you know, a huge amount. Now I will say though, that the pure, 1 teaspoon of the pure is equivalent to 2 ounces of wet organs. So it's very significant.

And also I might mention with that, with that effect, I mean, I always talk about this because I studied naturopathy. So I understand, like, you know, herbal medicine and nutritional research, we looked at different herbal, herbal extracts and what they can do even if you don't swallow the herb, like you said before, if they hit certain parts of the, of the bitter receptors in, on the, the back of the tongue, that can already activate certain detox enzymes in, in the liver and also activate, you know, saliva secretion down, further down. And that can also like, trigger the process of digestion and detox. So I think the same could potentially also apply with some of these, some of these compounds that are found in organ meats that we haven't even discovered scientifically yet. Like, I'm talking about these novel peptides, these novel compounds. I reckon what's happening is the human body would probably have certain receptors like, very high up in the digestive system that would then link up to that specific organ and then trigger some sort of healing process in that organ. That would be my guess.

I love that you bring this to the table because most people don't. They're just looking at from one specific lens. So I love that you're looking at from a very kind of robust perspective. I agree. And actually there are some studies that have been done with, with certain glands that, you know, I mean, I think Standard Process is one of the companies that did a lot of testing early on where they showed that if you ate the gland, they were able to trace it, that the properties went directly to supporting that gland in you. So it goes back to that like, supports, like. I would agree with you completely, completely.

And also as part of that, I just, I just remember the actual scientific name of that process or that it's called organo therapy. Have you heard of that before?

What is it called?

Organotherapy. If you, if you re, if you look, it's. Organo therapy is a technique that makes use of extracts derived from animal or, or human tissues to treat medical conditions.

Oh, okay. That's interesting. I mean, but I love your point about like there's, and this is one of the reasons I'm really on the band wagon of natural. You know, Mother Nature made products, you know, things that are found in nature because we act like we understand all this stuff. We act like there's nothing new to learn on a, you know, and there is and we're constantly learning new things. And so there's a fallacy built in to certain sciences. It's just, it's almost like that the science of today is, is really kind of null and void to a degree like that. There's always something further, something deeper, something that we don't know. And I always think of like an orange, right? I mean like remember back in the day, vitamin C was only one part of the orange and then later they were like, oh well it's not absorbing as well without the rose hips or this or that. And so they started to realize that they had to take other parts of that orange. But in reality they still can't recreate the entire part of the orange. And I would offer that the same is true with most things found in nature. So I love that you're sharing that perspective of like there's always deeper to go and there's always new things to learn.

What about in terms of James, looking at like preserving your formula, like let's say because you're putting it in obviously in sachet format, how did you go about like preserving the quality of the actual herbal, of the actual, sorry, organ extracts? Like did you need to think about adding a preservative or anything like that?

No, I actually I, I, I definitely tested it to see like, you know, it's really all about moisture, moisture levels and, and fortunately. So when we get the organ blend that is actually a two year shelf life, so, so that one's incredibly low moisture. If funny enough, it's the spices and herbs, it's the onion, the granulated onion and the garlic. Those are the things that have more moisture. And so those we say have a year shelf life. But all to say, I still say like if it takes you a year to eat our product then, then we're not doing our job. Because I don't want people treating this like nutmeg. Because if you, if you just buy it and use it once, then it's, then you shouldn't buy it because you're doing exactly what I'm trying to get people not to. I don't want you just eating organs once a month or once a year. I Want you to get the microdosing frequently and you're only going to get it if you use it. So my hope is that you like the three blends enough to use it. And guess what? If you don't purchase the pure and add it to your blend, you can make your own pluck. Like, you don't have to accept our blends. Like, if you already have a favorite seasoning, then just buy the pure and just, you know, you find your level of flavor. Like some people love organ meat flavor and so they could probably do a 50, 50 or even a 70, 30. It's just pluck is truly a gateway. Like so if organ meats are the gateway to nutritional abundance, pluck is the gateway to organs. And I really do try to make it as family friendly as possible. Like even our spice, we have a spicy mild and we put mild on there after the fact because we realize people think it's too spicy or they think it's gonna be too spicy. But I'm like, no, no, no, this is mild. Like we want. I don't want parents out there making multiple meals like, oh, here's, here's the spicy version for the adults and here's the no spice for the kids. Like, I want parents being as efficient and just, I want to respect their time as much as we can. You do one meal and ideally you're using one seasoning on there that works for the whole family. And that's how I design pluck.

What about in terms of. I'm just thinking out loud in terms of like different product categories. Did you ever. Or is it in the pipeline to create a product that's tailored for desserts and sweets?

Yeah, you're speaking my language. So, so we have a couple of products coming down the works. So we have. I really, really want to get brain available to people. I truly believe that we are at a loss because we're not eating brain anymore. And our ancestors used to. And when I say ancestors, I mean our grandparents. Many, if anyone, grew up, particularly in the US in the Midwest and they had a parent that grew up on a farm. More than likely that parent had brain with eggs. That's, that's typically how it was eaten. And you know, dementia and Alzheimer's is at an all time high. So if we go back to that concept of like supports, like, I'm not saying eating brain is going to start solve that, but my, my hypothesis is that eating this whole animal nutrition is going to help offset the toxins we're living in. And, and I, I would rather go that route than go down the pharmaceutical route. You know, I would rather first try what mother Nature's made versus what's been made in the laboratory. And so for my money, it's like I'm so. I have a. One of our upcoming products is going to be a cinnamon based product and it's going to have brain in it. We're also going to do species, a different species. So we're going to be doing a whole sardine line. Like not just the filets, but the entire sardine, from the head to the bones, the entire sardine. I've already got the sourcing for it and everything. And so we're going to do a whole sardine line and then down the road we'll be doing poultry and we're also going to be doing limited runs of bison. So I'm really excited to expose people to different species, different to make this, you know, natural, whole food based nutrition available to everyone. Because like I said in my 20 years, I just believe this is the trend that will not go away. It's just eat real food.

That cinnamon blend. I was just thinking of some recipes, recipe ideas. Now, James, I'm just thinking with some nice pancakes and some maple syrup. Oh, that, that sounds, sounds like it could be a tasty one.

Yeah. Now my, I will, I will share though I'm not that. The one bandwagon I'm definitely not on is I'm not a huge fan of, of putting sugar or even the, the low glycemic sugars or alcohol sugars into things. I believe that there's too many sweeteners and things. Like even today, man, I mistakenly bought some salsa from the store and I didn't, I just assumed it's salsa, it's not gonna have sugar in it. And then when we went to taste it, I'm like, oh no, no, this is too sweet. And I went and looked and there was freaking agave syrup. And I was just. So I just, it really pisses me off when I see that because it's so lazy as a chef. I just look at these things as so lazy. You know, when you go to a restaurant, one of the, the big distinguishers between a line cook or just someone who's getting paid very low. And a chef is that a chef knows how to kind of work their way out of a recipe. So let's say if you put, if the recipe's too bitter or sour or something like that, right. The chef knows how to get out of that corner and they know how to do it without necessarily adding sugar to do it. A line cook or someone that doesn't really understand the flavors, they. Who's just following a recipe, they don't. And so. And that's the majority of restaurants, right? So when you get a dressing or sauce that is being made in house, which is not many, but when it is, a lot of times if they go too bitter, they just add sugar to it. It's just such a. It's a lazy way of getting yourself out of a corner. And then what you see happening all the time with these, you know, ultra processed food companies is you see these dietary trends come on, come online, like keto, and you're even seeing it now with Carnivore. But what hap. What's the first product line that comes out for any dietary trend? It's. It's snacks and desserts, right. Every time. And it. It's so frustrating to me because really, it's. It's basically playing into everyone's addictive tendencies. And it's basically saying, like, oh, I know we gravitate towards sweets, but this one's better for you because it's keto. It's like, no, it's still a sweet. It's still dessert. You're still kind of keeping people boxed into this idea that they need to snack all day or that they need to have fulfill their cravings or their addictions. And I'm just. I cannot get on that bandwagon.

No, I definitely, definitely know what you mean there in terms of. Yeah, playing with people's like, I guess, like, sweet tooth. And then not really considering the fact that some of these products have designed. Have been designed to be incorporated as part. As part of, like, a healthy diet. But I'm really curious in terms of the evolution of the brand and I guess, like your main demographic. I'm really curious to know if there's been a certain subset of the population that's like, really found your products useful. Has it been best utilized for pediatrics, for kids? What sort of demographic has it best been, like, suitable for?

It's been an incredible learning journey. So I. When I kind of tapped into this concept, this idea, I knew that I was ahead of the curve. I knew that organ meats weren't necessarily in favor yet, but I really, truly believed that collagen had paved the way. That collagen, you know, many of us that were in the health field, you know, 10 years ago, collagen was just discussed inner circle. And now you can find it in almost any convenience store, right? So it took about 10 years for it to truly go mainstream. Seven to 10 years. But I was like, okay, but that's an animal based product. It's paving the way for other animal based products. And I just instinctively felt like organ meats are next. And so going into it, I knew that for any business, it's an uphill battle if you have to educate people on why they should be doing the product right. It's a long marathon and you're not going to be very successful if your whole platform is educating people. I focused on the people that already knew that organ meat nutrition was necessary. Like the people, prenatal people, doulas, people that were carnivore, keto, even some paleo like people that were already, I mean, it's a huge demographic of people that already know that organ meat nutrition is important. They're taking the capsules, they're, they're eating it, they're hunters. But I knew that they also were looking for easy and delicious daily ways of getting in. They were open to easier ways than what they were doing. So that was our initial focus. But what's fascinating is as we've continued on, we're going into our fifth year next year, and what we're finding is that it's also helping people to shift their palate. So a lot of practitioners are, are, they might have a client who has a child who's spectrum, for example, so they're very sensitive to flavor, very sensitive to texture. They're also typically very picky. And so what that client will tell, or the, the practitioner will tell the client, they'll say, just use pluck. That's all I want you to change. Maybe if they're really sensitive, put it in the ketchup or the sauce they will eat. But just use a little bit of the seasoning, ease into it. And that's the only change I want you to make. And then they get reported back that the kids start being more adventurous with what they're willing to eat. And what that is is really palate. We have the four tastes. We have salty, bitter, sweet and sour. And we also have a fifth one, umami, which discovered in the 90s. And they're all unique flavors. And most people, if you're picky, you're skewing into two arenas. You're basically salty sweet, which is very much the American standard diet salty sweet. Well, one of the ways to support someone in being more adventurous is just tap into the other flavors. And umami is one that the processed food company utilizes in msg So a lot of times you'll see MSG in products. It's because it's umami. And umami is kind of. It's savory, it's a slightly meaty, and it triggers the glutamate in the umami, triggers the addictive part of your brain. So I'm like, okay, well, let's. The organ meats have an umami. So let's like, so a. When you add pluck to your food, it makes your food taste better. You're helping to support a shift in the palate. And you're also. It's an ancestral food, so you're tapping your own body's needs and desires for these. These vitamins and minerals. And that's kind of what we see. We see kids are craving it. They. They're, they're changing, they're becoming more adventurous. I get reports that parents say that their kids skin issues went away or that their kid who is dealing with illness, constant chronic illness, that they actually suddenly had a. They started to feel better, they slept better, better energy. I mean, I'm just, I'm seeing, I'm hearing amazing results. And yet it's. It's just Mother Nature's multivitamin. It's just. We're not doing anything. We're not affecting it in any other way, but just getting it in front of people.

Yeah, I love that. It's like literally real food with some awesome, awesome, I guess, like applicability and scenarios. What about in terms of the salt, how do you go about selecting the Redmond. Redmond real salt?

Yeah. I'm curious what you think about this. I swear. So the salt to me is quite the journey. So at first, when we first launched, it was like, well, what's available? You know, what can I actually get? Because that's what really limits a new company is like, you find your manufacturer and it's like, well, what do they have access to? And for us, there was two issues. So one was, I am a fan of sea salt, but a lot of sea salt that's processed so that it's not dry is extremely processed, and it's not as nutrient dense as the stuff that's more wet. You know, like the Celtic or Celtic sea salt. So that stuff is going to be a lot more wet. Well, we can't use anything that's wet. It just makes the product clumpy. It doesn't work for us. So we have to use a very dry salt. At first I used pink Himalayan, thinking that that was kind of more going to be more nutrient dense. We quickly got requested by a lot of our customers when we first launched that to switch to Redmond. People are huge fans of Redmond. But so now what's currently coming. So then we switched. I was able to find I think the third spice provider or broker they call them. The third broker I found was willing to use Redmond salt. And so they specifically bring it in just for our blend. But now I'm getting lots of feedback from people that are in certain camps that they, they think Redmond or they're finding that Redmond has too much lead or that it has too, too many heavy metals. And I'm, I'm honestly a little confused by that. And you know, I feel like I'm a little bit of a rag doll getting pulled in all these different directions.

That's the first that I've ever heard about red.

Well, it's interesting, there's a few different people out there. One is called a non toxic dad. He, he's done studies on it. There's also the lead mama, she's done studies on it and they are saying that, that their tests show that it's high in lead. I think Warren of the non toxic dads said that it's like the third highest amounts of lead from, you know, that type of salt. And what. I don't even know how to answer some of that because so we, what we do when we get any of our ingredients is we third party test. And I have, I'm not, I don't have any ownership in Redmond real salt. I like their salt. I'm a fan of them. That's, that's the salt I wanted to use when we first started, but I couldn't find someone who would allow me to use it. And so, but I have no investment in them. I'm just trying to provide the product that people will purchase. Because my mission is the organ meats. The salt. To me, yes, I want to use the cleanest salt possible. That's not necessarily my mission. The mission for me is organ meats whole animal nutrition. And so the, they're coming kind of talking to me saying like, oh, you should be aware of this. But we, so we third party test the ingredients when we receive them and then we also third party test again once it's the product has been packaged. So we're third party testing twice when we get the product. The company that we source the spices and herbs from who are also not affiliated with Redmond, they're also third party testing. So it's getting Third party tested probably three to four times, times from completely unattached people, like companies. And, and I'm never seeing heavy metal show up. I'm, I'm never ever seeing anything come up that's alarming. So I just don't know who to believe. I don't, I don't necessarily know. I actually reached out to Warren because I'm gonna, I'm gonna say, well, let me, let's go through your testing company and see what comes up and compare it. Because here's something that's fascinating, Lucas, and I'm sorry I'm kind of ranting about this, but, but this is fascinating to me and I think it's something that really important for us all to remember is that food is wild, right? And particularly animals wild. So an animal's nutrient density is not just this kind of like standard that's always going to be the exact same level. It's not consistent. Yes, it's nutrient dense, but the numbers fluctuate based on season, based on what the animals ate, based on the breed of the animal. So there is not this kind of like one singular kind of number you can throw out there and say, well, this is what it is. And so the organ meats where I source from, I got the nutritional data from a third party tester on their organs and then I got, I took those nutritionals and I compared them to what heart and soul is showing to all the different companies that are selling organ meats and what they're saying their organ meats have. And none of them lined up. Like I could not find a common thread at all. And so it made me very aware and reminded me of the fact that we have this perception of what health is. We have this idea of what we are eating, what we are buying. And I just don't think it's something we can control as much as we believe we can. I think it's a lot more variable, I think it's a lot more unpredictable and that we may be kind of digging our own holes by focusing so much on these granular, minute, you know, details that it's far more better. And I'm curious what you're going to say to this, but it's in my judgment it is far better to focus on what is the energy and lifestyle of the animal that I'm choosing. What is the energy and lifestyle of me when I'm preparing these foods, when I'm eating these foods. Because as we all know, there's placebo effect. We all know that we can shift things Energetically, just by our mindset. So that's kind of from my money, what I believe we should more be focusing on than is how much protein does it have, how much iron, how much of this. Because it's variable, going to change every time with the season, in the year.

It also just got me thinking, James, in terms of websites like Chronometer and those different websites that can calculate the rough amount of daily intake of certain vitamins and minerals in like let's say, let's say you look up shrimp and you look up, you know, the amount of protein in shrimp and you quickly realize, okay, like this website saying this, these other website saying that, and there's like conflicting data on that, but it's like, all right, yeah, it's like there is no one standardized, uniform, definitive amount. And that's because the amounts that are present in different types of shrimp, like you said, you know, different types of meat is going to vary where they're.

Caught, where they're caught, what they're being fed. It very. Everything is variable. I mean, you know, I had a conversation with the non toxic dad, Warren and he brought up something that was also fascinating. So he was like, a lot of companies that have best intentions don't even realize that they may be sourcing very clean ingredients. But then when they put it to their co packer and their co packer blends the ingredients together that the machine they're using, the actual, the, the I don't know what you call the spatula, whatever they use to kind of blend it is made of, it's made of Teflon. And so as it heats up from the blending that the Teflon chemicals get into your product and you don't even know it and just like, dude, like this rabbit hole is getting deeper and deeper and like if anything it's just causing people to be in more stress.

In more paranoid, even more paranoia.

Exactly. And I just, I feel like it's like we're going the wrong direction. Like we should be focusing on like once again not just what we're eating, but how are we eating it. What is the, where are we at when we're eating it? I mean, it is a fact that if you believe what you're eating is good for you, then you will digest it better.

That's actually something you brought up actually yesterday I was thinking like, I wonder and I've always sort of, I wonder if we, you know how some people say, oh, I know I shouldn't be eating this, and then they eat the ice cream. But as they're eating the ice cream, you're like, oh, I know I shouldn't be eating this. This is like, you know, I, I should. I wonder if, what if they said to themselves, like, I would actually be curious to see what happens in terms of the blood sugar spike if they wore like a continuous glucose monitor to, to assess the glucose spike. If instead they said, no, like, I can eat this, I can actually, I can actually stomach this and digest it and all that. And I'd be curious to know what would happen in terms of their blood sugar spike, whether or not because you've told your body that you can digest it and break it down, or like, let's say people with gluten sensitivity, if they convince themselves, like, you know, oh, I can tolerate this now. I do think the mind can be really powerful in that regard.

I think that would be fascinating. I agree. Maybe someone listening will take it on as a challenge. I'm fascinated by that stuff. I think mindset is way more powerful than we give it credit for. I think it moves things much better than other. You know, I think it's a better mover of health than even some other things. But I agree. I think, I think, I bet you too, that if it was more of a positive experience, that you would actually eat less. Because I think a lot of times when we create this taboo kind of mindset or condition around what we're doing, we kind of check out, you know, we, we kind of like, we don't. We're not as mindful about it, you know? You know what I mean? It's like we're, we're almost trying to pretend we're not doing what we're doing because it's our dirty little secret or something like that. And I, and I really do believe when we're more mindful and we eat slower, then the body will give you the communication, you know, and it will tell you, hey, I'm full or I'm done. And you just gotta, you just gotta listen, but you also gotta go slow enough and not be so distracted that you, that these, these, this communication goes unnoticed.

I just thought of something with the, with your, the spice blend and your entire sort of pluck itself. I wonder if individuals that have food sensitivities before they try plucking, and then when they try pluck with those certain foods, whether or not their food sensitivities actually dissipate and disappear. For example. Have you ever. Has anyone mentioned things like that?

You know, it's hard to say because I think the Best test would be to use pure, because it's just the organ meat. But when you use the seasonings, there are other ingredients. And so what I find is if let's say someone's sensitive to garlic, then, yeah. And they have the zesty garlic or something like that. And you just don't know. I'm like. I'm always telling them. I'm like, it's not a miracle drug. Like, it's not gonna. It's not gonna make you not sensitive to garlic if you're sensitive to garlic. It's the third ingredient in. In that blend. It's like, it's. It's. It's called zesty garlic. You know, it's very. You can't get away from the garlic. You know what I mean? So. So I think whenever you're doing a test like that, it has to be as isolated as possible. You can't have it be a blend or a mixture of ingredients, because then it's like, well, which ingredient was it that set it off or didn't set it off? Like, how do you know?

Well, the way I looked at it was like, all right, let's say the individual decides to sprinkle or just use a small amount of pluck over the top of, let's say, white rice. Because you can do that. It's completely fine. So adding that over white rice and. And initially, before they even knew about pluck, they have a sensitivity to white rice. Like, let's say it causes bloating or some sort of. They get an adverse effect. But then when they add in the pluck as a seasoning with the white rice, that maybe some of the compounds found within the organ meats itself actually enables one to tolerate rice better because of some of the.

Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I see what you're saying. Yeah. I don't know. I've never heard. I. I don't. I've never gotten that feedback. This seasonings, though, you know, it's more seasoning than it is organ meat. Right? I mean, because the organ meat's about nearly, you know, 17%, nearly 20%. So it's like, it's still very concentrated. I'm not trying to undermine the product, but it's. It's not the. It's not the same as if you. You were getting mostly organ meat, you know, where it's a higher percentage. So I don't know. I'm not really sure. You definitely see very positive effects very quickly in kids, and maybe that's because A little bit goes a long way since they're smaller size, I'm not sure. But it also depends on the individual how sensitive they are, because I haven't personally experienced this. But I did get some reports early on where a couple told me that they ate it for dinner and they couldn't get to sleep that night because they'd gotten so much energy from the organ meats. And I'm like, really? But, like, that is one sensitive person. You know what I mean? That's pretty incredible.

No, I think what you're doing with Epluck, I mean, it's a phenomenal mission and vision that you have. And I feel like your company's growing, expanding, and you've got different product ideas in the pipeline. And, yeah, I just wanted to say a massive thank you for doing what you do, because it actually makes my job a lot easier as a naturopath to recommend, you know, and introduce these, like, organ meats into people's diets. It makes it a lot easier for me to do that.

Well, thank you for saying that. I. I appreciate that.

So, yeah, for those listening in, if you guys wanted to actually check out some of Chef James's products, we'll be leaving that linked in the podcast show notes, and it'll also be on my website if you guys want to learn more about the different products that he has there as well. And so I'll also be doing a review as well on my YouTube channel for those listening in. I'll actually be sharing my experience using Eat Pluck as part of that. So stay tuned for that. But otherwise, James, is there anything else you wanted to share with my listeners before. Before we finish off now?

Just. Just as I just said, I mean, I really appreciate you sharing your perspective and your kind of holistic perspective on health and food. I'm constantly, you know, challenged a lot by that very American mentality of go big or go home and, like, how everyone wants just, you know, all or nothing. And I. It's. I feel sometimes like, you know, alone on the top of a mountain, kind of yelling to people it's okay to have small amounts of things, but just do them regularly. You know what I mean? Like, I think it's just kind of this newer concept around health and food that we can be gradual and that we can meet people where they are and we don't have to shame them for what they do or don't do. And so I'm just grateful for that very mindful and kind of conscious perspective that you bring to the table and thank you for your work as well. I think these perspectives are very important because we definitely are seeing a lot of, you know, just a lot of extremism in the industry. And so I appreciate when we find something that's a little bit more in the middle or a little bit more gray, because I think that's really where most people live. But. And so we need those voices to be louder, you know, that, that the gray area exists, and it's probably where most of us do the best.

Yeah, no, thank you so much. And I just remembered that I've got PubMed notification set up for certain organ meat. So what happens is whenever the word like liver meat or kidney meats mentioned on PubMed, I'll get notified. So any new research coming out on, like, organ meats, like these new peptides and compounds, because that's what I love looking at, is like, all right, what are the particular molecules and compounds that are found in these meats that are actually eliciting, you know, increases in testosterone or improves heart health or improves cholesterol levels? Like, I'm the guy that wants to notify and, and shout it out to the world and educate the world about that.

So that's awesome. And, and I, and I, I love that. And, and you and I were talking before this started about, you know, there's other companies out there that are pushing organ meats, and I don't see any of us as competitors. So I, I, I'm just anyone that's pushing whole animal health right now. To me, it's all about spreading the word, supporting people in getting back to this way of thinking about food and getting your nutrients. Instead of going for a capsule or a pill, that you go towards Mother Nature and this whole animal concept that it's a, it's more humane, it's better for the planet, it's better for our own health. And I see us all on the same boat, and it's just rising tides. The more, the more ways that people can get organ meats into the diet or get more whole animal health into their diet, the better. And whether it's through pluck, whether it's through taking capsules, whether it's through hunting and eating it yourself, whatever works for you, I just want you to do it regularly enough that you benefit.

Awesome. Well, James, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. It was an absolute pleasure chatting again. For those listening in, all the podcast show notes will be there, so you can check that out. And that's it from today's episode. If you did enjoy the episode. Please leave a five star review and do share it around. And definitely check out eatpluck. Com. Thank you guys for tuning in. I look forward to seeing you in the next podcast.