Regenerative Ranching & Nutrient-Dense Meat with R.C. Carter of Carter Country Meats

Welcome back to Everyday Ancestral. I'm James Barry. Today's episode, we have R.C. Carter. R.C. is a third-generation cattle rancher, and he's a beef supplier chain expert. He owns Carter Country Meats. He's a husband and father of 3. He's really into regenerative food systems. He's also really into soil. So you're gonna learn some really cool, very important parts to our food industry here in this episode. Please enjoy. We are here to be curious and support everyone's knowledge of how to take the things that matter into our everyday use and joy. R.C., it's such a pleasure to have you, to talk with you, because I loved when we saw each other last. You brought up something that I honestly had never really thought about, which was soil, the importance of soil with our meat and the grasses that are grown that the cows are eating. Can you just dive right into this concept? Because in many ways, even though you're raising cattle, the way you talk about it, you're really raising soil.

Yeah. Well, I mean, it's all connected, right? We're all nature. And the proof is that your finger is this long now, and when you were a baby, it was this long. And so, that's just the nutrients that we are consuming. And, we have to be conscious of that and take care of that because as you grow food, the 30,000-foot view is the healthier your soil is, whether it's you're raising beef or lettuce or it doesn't matter, the healthier the soil, the more nutrient-dense the food that is produced from that soil is going to be.

Now, when you're, I mean, you're actively, like, how many cattle are you guys ranching typically? I know it changes probably every year, but—

So historically, we're like a 500 cow-calf operation. So historically, we've always been on the production side. So we have pregnant cows, and then they have their babies in the spring, and we raise those. But You know, over the past 15 years, we've really gotten into the meat side of it and producing the fat cow side, the finished animals.

Oh, so before this, you were just raising the calves and then selling those?

Yeah, yeah, 100%.

Oh, similar to Tyler McMahon over where we met, right? At the Rendezvous Beef Roundup.

Yeah. And, I mean, and so, we're We were just, you know, we were strictly ranchers. And that's like that. This journey that we've been on into the meat industry has been such an eye-opener because ranchers look at a cow as a cow. Like, you don't— ranchers don't really look at beef as food. And I didn't. Because you don't— you're not following that animal through the whole process. of the butchery. And, now we're into the nutrient density testing and the marketing and going into kitchens of restaurants and talking to chefs. And, it's been a huge eye-opener and really has allowed us to connect a lot of dots that are now coming back to the soil, which is what we're passionate about.

So, in a sense though, I mean, Yeah, it's getting you thinking about all the different pieces that go to getting that meat on someone's plate. So what can you share, kind of dive into even some more, you know, kind of practical learnings that you're gaining, maybe starting even with what did you learn from talking to the chefs at the restaurants?

So 10 years ago, you know, we, we started out with this, you know, just a handshake agreement with an umbrella, an umbrella of restaurants and they said, yes, we love your beef. We sampled it. Let's go. And my brother and I were like, oh man, this is going to be like easy money. You know, we're making $2,000 a month, or I was making $2,000 a month, right? Trying to raise a family. And then we delivered the meat and the agreement was like whole cow butchery. Well, what we realized was like the chefs, they had no idea about whole animal butchery. And so they ate up all the ribeye strip and tenderloin, and then they were just stuck. So it literally, it took us 3 years of just nose to the grindstone to figure out like what was going on and how do we sell meat to that restaurant industry. And we had that. And what I realized is like chefs at that point in time, they knew how to cook certain cuts of meat. But the conversation, like, there was little conversation, there was no conversation about the soil, there was no conversation about nutrient density. And I mean, it was just like beef, and everybody was comparing our product to the grain-finished commodity norm. And so there was a lot of education in that process to say, hey, this is an eye of round, it adds value to your plate. If you can keep this cut of meat instead of grinding it into hamburger and cook it a certain way, it's delicious, but it's the cooking technique that is the key to unlock the potential of this cut. And so, it was quite a learning curve. And, they say education's not free. So, if you're not going to get it from school, you just go out and you learn. And, that's kind of the way We do things the hard way because we were just ranchers and we're used to that. So, the supply chain industry was very interesting to me because I saw that these chefs, they'd all been trained based off of what the broadliners, which broadliners are like these major distributors that get food from the aggregators of food production and then into the restaurant. And they were basically, they had been trained, the chefs had been trained by these guys and they say, hey, this is a ribeye, this is how it comes, this is the shape, this is the size, this is the flavor. And so, what I saw is like these major corporations, to simplify their process, they were trying to put all, everything into the same box. So, the simpler their process, the easier it was for them to sell versus when we come onto the scene and we've got like, we're marketing these big old fat dry cows and the ribeye, you know, they're rather than trying to make everything the same, we wanted to celebrate the differences in the individual animals, you know, and it's like the flat irons on these older animals, they're huge. And, the shape of the ribeye varies per cow. And, rather than discount that on the price, why don't we celebrate that as far as this is an individual animal and the flavor and the quality was there? So, it's been a really interesting process to deprogram these chefs that we work with to see it from our perspective, which is more of a nature or a natural perspective. And get them shifted over onto our program.

Yeah. I imagine early on they were also probably overcooking it, right? Because a lot of people don't realize you don't cook 100% grass-fed beef the same as you do conventional, you know, grain-fed beef.

Yeah, right. I mean, you typically, you treat it more as like it's wild game because the commodity grass-fed beef is, is more, it's leaner. We've got a recipe where we're getting these animals fatter. But, I mean, still, go to any hamburger, go buy— try to buy a hamburger from anywhere and ask for it medium rare. A lot of people will come back and tell you, no, sorry, we can't do that.

Because it's illegal, you're saying, or a health hazard, or what do you mean?

That's this preconceived notion that there's That, that it can be a health hazard, which in reality it's not. Like everything that goes through a USDA processing plant has been tested for E. coli. So they grind the meat, then they test it. And once those tests come back, then it's allowed to go out. But the society, the chefs all still believe that if you serve meat medium rare, you know, that it can be a health hazard. But it's like, well, what's beef tartare? You know, that's raw meat. And, I mean, in my opinion, if you cook beef past medium-rare, the quality is only going to decline because you're losing the juices and the fat is cooking out of it. And, that's the flavor, right? That's where the phytonutrients and all the good stuff stored.

So, why 100% grass-fed? What does that mean to you and what's the difference in terms of the quality coming specifically from someone who ranches the cattle?

So, I mean, it spurred us from a number of different levels. I like to be outside, but I don't necessarily like to be sitting in a tractor. And, I don't believe, to a certain level, I don't really feel that feeding animals grain is inherently a bad thing. I think feeding animals 26 pounds of grain, the majority of the diet, I don't think that's healthy. But just the act of raising grain is very, very extractive. Because when you think of soil and you think of soil health, you have to think of like, we think of it in terms of regenerative perspective on this is like, we're trying to build soil. And there's only one way to build soils. And that is to, instead of harvesting everything that is grown, taking it all off the field, we're leaving good portions of it, like 50% of our grasses is going back because the only way to build soil is to feed the bugs. So, whatever is growing above, you have to put it back Onto the soil. And the process of raising grain, not to get into the chemification of it, and the monocropping, I mean, grain crops are just, it's one crop, just oats or corn. But there's a tremendous amount of fertilizer added, there's a tremendous amount of herbicides added. But the thing that's not being talked about is we're taking the yield, like we're with that crop, because the farmer is just looking at it as, this is my crop, I'm trying to maximize my economic gain off of this field. And the way to do that is to maximize the yields. But if you're maximizing for yields, then you're leaving very little. You're not selecting for, in your practices, you're not selecting for the soil health, right? And so that's where We've leaned more towards grass finished because it's much cheaper to do for us because we're not running equipment where we have less tractors. You know, a tractor tire these days costs, you know, $2,000. Diesel, everything is expensive. Like, I think everybody can agree, no matter what it is, everything is expensive. So we have much less overhead costs in raising grass. But then, on the double dip is cattle grazing. They're stepping on the grass, pushing it back into contact with the soil for the worms and the microbes to eat. But then, also, in terms of their manure, like, the amount of nitrogen and phosphorus and potassium that is in manure is tremendous. But that nitrogen needs to bind with some sort of carbon, which we find in the organic matter. So, if cow eats some grass and then poops on the grass, that grass binds that carbon and makes it so it can't evaporate into the atmosphere.

So it goes back into the soil basically.

Correct. Yeah.

Can you, I think you're bringing up some really good points. I mean, people don't, you know, the normal person purchasing their meat from a grocery store, they don't really understand What it is you're doing. You know, they don't understand all the pieces. I think they don't— that's also what's contributing to them not really understanding the cost, 'cause they see, well, it's 100% grass-fed, like, it's so expensive. Why should I invest in that? So, can you walk us through, you know, as much as you can, but like, what is it— not only what is the process of Um, like what is, what is a year of grass-fed? Because one thing I've heard, for example, is that it's hard to find green grass year-round here in the US. That like, for example, New Zealand being an island and where they are located, they can have green grass year-round. So how do you deal with that? Are you able to feed them green grass or what's the process of they get green grass this amount of time of their life, then they have to, then it's hay. And are you fermenting the hay? Like, Can you just kind of walk us through what that process of feeding the cow from calf to slaughter is?

Yeah. So, typically, what we're selecting for is these older animals because to address the issue, a lot of people buy grass-finished beef, but then they get it and they don't understand the cooking of it. So then, they overcook it because it's very lean. So then we moved over to these older animals because we were able to get marbling in older animals because a cow isn't fully mature until they're 4 years old. So structurally, they're still growing. So there isn't near as much, and this is why the commodity norm is to finish animals on grain because you can get an animal fast. There's much more energy in grain than there is in grass. So, you can get an animal fat much quicker.

How old are the grain-fed animals? How long do they let them live?

So, typically, they're processing them at the earliest 18 months of age.

What?

Yeah, yeah. No, the average animal, the average age of the animals processed in the United States Wow.

So, I mean, based on what you're saying though, that they're not even mature. I mean, so in a sense, are they even that nutritious at that point? I mean, if we look at maturity as kind of aging in, you know, in nutrient density.

So, the testing that we've done, so we've outsourced our testing to some third parties and they've looked at the Phytonutrient density, which is still kind of this, they're still trying, they can't really measure, they're still trying to figure out what the spectrum of nutrient density looks like. So, it's still growing on how weak of nutrient density can we have and how much nutrient density can we have and how do we even test it? Because so far, they've identified 26 thousand different phytonutrients within food. And so, your ingredient label that's carbs, sugar, protein, and that's— no, there's—

Doesn't even touch it.

Doesn't even come close. And, from speaking with these scientists, those guys, there's a Dr. Stefan von Vliet. So, he's one of the leaders in in this technology. And he said, he told me that even with the technology that exists right now, he believes they're only able to see 5% of what is actually in our food. And so, they've just like, you know, you got your macros, your micro, now there's phytonutrient density. And he thinks that that's only 5% of what is actually there. And so, it's I mean, it's like, I feel that like the soil is kind of like if you look up at the stars and it's like it doesn't end, right? It's so deep you can't even wrap your brain about it, around it. I feel like the soil is probably the same thing, but in reverse. It just gets smaller and smaller, but every piece of it at some point does matter. We just can't measure it.

Wow. Yeah, no, that makes complete sense to me actually. I mean, so if they're slaughtering the animals in such a quick time, so how are you doing it differently? So you said you're letting them go to 4 years?

Yeah. So we're aggregating these animals from not only our ranch, but other ranchers. And bringing them and then either taking them to processing them or finishing them, running them for another year. You know, because the key is they've got to be fat. If an animal doesn't have— if she doesn't look fat, there's a very unlikely chance that she's actually going to exhibit any type of marbling within the meat. And that's a learning curve because nobody's really doing this. So we're We're trying to figure it out. And we've done everything. You know, this is— it's finally, it's starting to rain and turn, you know, turn into winter right now. But up until right now, like the animals are out, they're out eating pastures. They're just eating the green grass that's growing either on the rangeland or in our irrigated fields. And then as the snow flies, we've done a lot of testing. From everything from creating haylage, which means you chop the hay when it's green, let it ferment, and feed that, to offering them good baled hay. And so, we're evolving the process and trying to figure out what is the perfect scenario to keep our costs down, but the animals still gain weight and maintain the quality. It's really interesting, you know, out in the hay fields, like, our fields are really, really flat. Like, if you're going to drive machinery and harvest anything, that is the one reason that we make fields flat is so that you can run equipment across them. I love to experiment and just like go against what the norm is. And if you have an idea, you've got to test it. Because we understand we're like, we're leading a charge. We're trying to do things differently and not accepting just that this is the way we've always done it. So we went into one of our fields that was super flat, it wasn't very productive, and we ripped it. So we put a bunch of oxygen into the soil and then we just Went from a polyculture to just, we put a bunch of different seeds out there and said, okay, whatever wants to grow out here can grow. And then, we've been going in with the cattle and just letting the cattle harvest that. And, what we're finding is that the soil actually becomes healthier when it's not just flat. So, we talk about monoculture, but then it's like you think about soil, And look at just like, as you're driving, like landscapes, and there is nothing in nature that is like flat where you could drive a tractor across it at, you know, 15 miles an hour. And so I believe that these like really flat areas are kind of ecological deserts. So why are we promoting that within our pastures? Like you've got ecology that likes the high spot. ecology that likes the low spot. And let's enable that and then let the cow come in to do the harvesting and keep the machinery off of it. So, I really believe that at the end of the day, the model that the majority of ranchers are participating in just in terms of the cattle, I think that that model is very flawed because we're all tied to these input costs of oil and tractors and tires, and that at the end of the day, they can jack the price of that and you're tied to it because that's the model that you're operating in.

But how— so, because I definitely, I hear where you're going in that we're really not just talking about how you run a ranch, but how do we change the industry to think differently, right? And so, I'm on that page too. But how do you convince them when you're— okay, so yeah, maybe you're not using the tires, you're not using as much fossil fuels, but you're still growing those animals longer. So, is your cost 4 times higher than theirs, or are you able to get it relatively close? Like, how do you close the gap of the cost?

So, these animals, like the younger animals that are being processed, that is their mission. Once they're sold, that is their mission, whereas is to just get fat, blow up very artificially and quickly, and then right to the slaughter plant. Whereas what we're doing is we're taking animals that have been in a cow-calf production model. So their first mission was to raise babies. And then once they come in and they're no longer getting pregnant, then they slide over onto now we're going to get you fat and you're going to go into the butcher, then you're going to be processed. So, she's got her whole lifespan of out eating. And, in this country, there's millions and millions of acres and everybody's cows are out. Nobody has got their cows in confinement. For the most part, they're all raised pretty much the same. And so, they're out just grazing. And I think that's really, I think that is what adds to the nutrient density. Because if you're just focused on a pasture, you know, maybe there's, depending on what you've planted in there, there's maybe 5 or a really great pasture's got 7 different plants, different types of plants that these animals can be consuming. But if they're out on the range, I mean, they've got access to everything wild, you know, like 70 different things. And so, just for the viewers, like phytonutrients, every individual plant, every species of plant has got a chemical signature that is unique to that species. So, the wider the array of diversity of an animal's diet, it is allowed to pick up, consume, and then store those phytonutrients within its body. And so, I think that, you know, range is, I believe, by far the most nutrient-dense animals are coming from areas that have the most diversity of diet.

I mean, and you're, you said you're testing your meat compared to others. So, what are you seeing?

Compared to the grass-finished norm, I mean, we have an omega-6 to 3 ratio that's 3.5 times better than grain-finished beef. And, I still don't know what this one means, but essential— let's see, essential amino acids were 70% higher in these beef. And then also, the phytonutrient density was 264% higher. So, that really raises the question is like, but one of the things that comes back is like, yes, Our beef is more expensive, but it's like cost versus quantity. Right now, food is just being sold based off of water weight. And so, look, you can compare my 1-pound ribeye to a grain-finished 1-pound ribeye and you're like, well, that's a lot more expensive. But, if you break it down, you're like, what is the nutrient density of this? There's a lot more nutrients in it. So, it is what it is at this point.

Do you find, this just occurred to me, do you find that you actually need to eat less because it's more nutritious?

I believe so. I mean, you definitely, you feel better. We've got a lot of customers who've gotten into the carnivore diet and, you know, keto diet. And, I had a fellow by the name of Jeff Toland and he called me. This was when I first heard about the carnivore thing and I'm like, what is that? So, I called him and he said, okay, I started doing this because of X, Y, and Z health issues. And then, he said, when I started eating your beef, he said, I felt a different, a higher level of health come into my body. So, I mean, at the end of the day, it's the nutrient density, right?

Yeah, that's fascinating. So what do you, how do you, how would you talk to the people out there that are saying like, you know, cows are killing our planet or destroying our planet? How do you speak to those, that kind of, uh, that comment?

You know, I'd say the first thing I would say is, you know, I feel like we're, it's misguided. I feel like of all, of all the things that are contributing to, you know, the climate change, climate change, we're like, I don't know if climate change is real, you know, because one side says this, one side says that.

What's your experience of it though?

But, but I'm like, are we poisoning our environment? 100%. The amount of chemicals that we're putting onto the ground. So I really don't think the focus should be on climate change. I think it's like, are we poisoning the soil and poisoning the ocean? We can, we can agree on that. We can measure that. And nobody can deny that. And then, you know, when it comes to the beef is like, what's beef's contribution to that? Look across all industries like transportation. Like beef is like this, agriculture is like this much of all of that. And cows is even a smaller percentage of that. I believe that these like large confinement operations, I don't think they're good for the— I don't— that's why I don't participate. I don't like dumping chemicals on my ground. I don't like raising grains. And I don't like stuffing animals in a large confinement operation. That's where they get sick. And at the end of the day, it makes more work for me. And it costs more money. So that's why we We are more on this regenerative base because it's easier, we can be more profitable. And, at the end of the day, I can go outside onto my soil and smell it and be like, I did something. I'm actually contributing to the future versus just extracting because that's this total contradiction between nature And like our society is like, get money and be comfortable, right? And it's like, in order to do that, you have to extract, but nature needs you to give back to it and like work within its circular flow. And so there's like this really interesting balancing act that we're trying to play between being financially viable, but also taking care of the soil the way it tells us that it needs to be taken care of.

How do you think, well, gosh, there's so many questions. So how do you think people, how do you think people should shift their mindset around the meat industry? Like, and I don't just mean about, is it good for the planet or bad? I mean, even like when people go to the grocery store and they're trying to figure out which one to purchase, like, What do you think that they should be thinking about that maybe they're not currently thinking about?

Health. I think they should, I think they should focus on health.

Like not only their health, but like think about the health of that animal when it was being raised maybe, or can you elaborate?

Yeah. And the, the, the, that animal, because, you know, I think the simplest thing you can do is cut out all processed foods. You know, if it's an ultra-processed foods, if you're trying to optimize for your health, select for that. Because by selecting for that, which is don't— and don't trust the labels. Like, trust your tongue. If it doesn't have chemicals that aren't like tricking your brain, that's the reason why like an egg from like an egg that somebody raises in their backyard tastes better than an egg from a, you know, any grocery store. It's because there's more nutrient density. And so, our tongues are just like, they're hardwired to tell our brain to select for nutrient density. And so, by doing that and just tasting different things, your tongue is going to tell you which foods are more nutrient-dense. And then, by selecting the more nutrient-dense foods, that's going to drive more demand for foods that are grown in healthy soil. So, at the end of the day, the consumer dollar will drive the demand for healthier soil because more nutrient-dense foods are grown in more healthy soils.

Yeah. Now, where are you located? So, what specific region are you?

I'm in north-central Wyoming.

Okay, you are in Wyoming. Yeah. And that's a bit different than like where Tyler's located because you're more, it's kind of greener, right? I think it's more deserty where he is, right?

Yeah. I mean, we're pretty arid. You know, we only get 13 inches of annual precipitation. So Tyler's a little, they're a little bit lower. They get a lot more wind than we do. Which is— it's better for us. The wind's no bueno. But, you know, we've also got a lot of irrigated ground. We've got 500 irrigated acres. And so, like, in the springtime, we turn the cows out when the range is turning green, then we go out and we harvest the grasses, you know, at the right times. And then as things start to dry off, dry up, then the cattle migrate down, and then we kind of focus on our irrigated pastures.

And how long have you been— because I know you shared at the beginning it's been a bit of a process, a learning curve, in terms of not only how you're raising and how to make sure it's economical, but how to educate, you know, buyers, right? So how long have you been doing ranching?

I mean, I'm a third generation, and raising our boys, you know, out here. So we've been doing it our whole life, but really focused on this old school approach just over the past 15 years and really leaning into that.

Oh, that's a good amount of time. So how— so was your— did that start with your father? Is that who owned the ranch before?

Yeah. Well, it really, it started with my grandfather because he was just a visionary and He drilled wells, you know, and tapped into this. We've got artesian water out here, which means you don't have to pump it. We've got these like huge peaks that are right behind us and all the water that all the snowmelt goes into these rock layers and then comes into like where I'm at, at a 23-degree angle. And so 1,700 feet below me, is this huge aquifer. So, my grandfather tapped into those and then he laid this infrastructure in terms of pipelines out all over along the ranch. And, that was his contribution. He was a naturalist and just an outdoorsman in every sense of the word. And then, my dad, he came in because my grandfather lost the ranch He was going to lose it to the bank because he couldn't make the bank payments. So, my dad came in and he saved the ranch from the bank and basically financially got us to a place where we were safe. And then, I came back, I graduated in 2001, decided that— well, I decided at an early age this is what I was going to do. And then, I came back And have kind of been steering the ship since then. And hopefully our boys, you know, they, I can see it in them. They'll just take it to the next level. 'Cause at the end of the day, I mean, we're, we're, you get like X amount of years. I think it's like you get 24 years to actually contribute to the world between the amount of time that you sleep and you're in the shower and, you know, you're not, you know, a kid and you're not old. You get— It's really a short period of time. So, you know, and folks say this is like, you're, it's not your land, you're borrowing it from the future. And I think it's kind of, it's shortsighted to just use that time to only build, to only focus on building capital. At the end of the day, you know, it's like, it's our future. And if we don't have clean water, And clean food and healthy food. I mean, look at our world right now. You know, this health epidemic that can be directly correlated to metabolic disease, which is, you know, what we eat and what we put in and what we put on our bodies.

Yeah. Wow. Now, I'm curious, what was your dad doing before he came and saved the ranch? What career was he in?

He's, he's always been— well, he was a bull rider. And then he came back and he's always been into— he's always been into cows. But he started like branching out and like, more into like trading cattle and figuring out how to take advantage of like cattle markets to build capital versus very few ranchers. I think over the long haul, most, most operations that are just a cow-calf operation, They just break even. You know, good ones, good ones get a little ahead, but the moms, like, they all have a job in town so that they can get insurance and, you know, make an extra $60,000 a year to supplement because ranches, they're not lucrative. And, you know, the one thing that has kept the ranching industry alive is that the more that, you know, the value of land out here in the West has just gone through the roof. We saw it with COVID Everybody was, there's so many people fleeing the cities and wanting to get into more, you know, the Mountain West. And so we've seen the land prices just go through the roof. You know, properties that we purchased for $100,000 or $180,000 30 years ago, they have like their values in the, you know, multimillion dollars at this point. And so, as land values go up, then the banks allow the ranchers to borrow more. And so, it's like, it's almost a trap, you know, that they're just borrowing. They're not cash flowing into profitability. They're just borrowing against the values of their ranch. And it's kind of silly because like our ranch is worth a lot of money, but it's actually worth nothing because we're not trying— we We don't want to sell it. Like, we take it as a— it's a responsibility that it's like, it's ours to take care of and steward it. So it's a crazy situation. And, you know, just as far as consumers supporting local ranches, like the real ones, if they're raising and trying to take care of the land, like they're going to promote a product that's That's going to take care of your bodies and they need you. Like those folks need to go direct to you and cut out these middlemen. And then, you know, in that scenario, everybody wins.

Is it the middlemen that are making the money? Like who makes the money in the beef industry? Who makes the most of the money? Because it doesn't seem like it's the ranchers.

It isn't the ranchers, you know, like this year, Ranchers are profitable, and really profitable, like 1 or maybe 2 out of every 7 years, and then they starve. So if you make money, you just don't spend it. So within the industry, you know, you have to recognize the supply chain. So you have the producer, the aggregator, the process, you know, the feedlots, and then it goes on to the processing plants. And that is directly in the middle. And that is where the biggest bottleneck is, because they control the processing. And so, at this point in time, there's 4 processors that control 80 to 86% of all the animals processed in the United States are owned by 4 processors. And 2 of them, they're not even American companies, they're Brazilian-owned and have direct ties to the cartel. I mean, they, these, they were caught bribing like the president and I think 1,300 elected officials in Brazil. Those are the guys that control the processing in the United States. And those are the guys, it's typically, it's a very low margin business. They're just making cents. But, you know, it's interesting because I did this experiment. We built a little restaurant in our town, town of 260 people, and we built a restaurant. It can only stay open for 6 months out of the year while the tourists are here. But this past spring, I had this vision in my head where I was like, we are going to outcompete the local grocery store, which is 30 miles away, and it's really expensive. So, I have this walk-in freezer where people can come and go, purchase meat. And so I was like, okay, what is my cutout price? What is my breakeven price to compete with that grocery store? So I went to the grocery store, I took all the prices of their meat. I didn't take into account the margin that the distributor or the grocery store was making, just face value, shelf price. If I was to sell 20 beef, At their prices, I'd lose $14,000. And so that was like it was like it was my balloon was deflated because I was like there's no way I can't compete. And so but that made me think why why are the broadliners why are these giant corporations why are they using beef as a loss leader because the price of cattle this past year has gone through the roof. So the ranchers are getting a win. But why are they, why are they using it at last as a loss leader? And the only thing I could come up with is that these Big 4 packers were selling beef less than they could buy and produce it, because the attack was being played on the independent, on the other section of the independent supply chain. So there's 14% of the market is independent processors, distributors, you know, people that are selling this. And that was where they're attacking because they don't have the runway. The big 4 packers, they've got billions of dollars in cash, like they can lose money on this for, you know, it's a strategy, they can lose money for a year. But if they consolidate, you know, a percentage of the independents that is are in direct competition with them in the, you know, 2 years from now, 3 years from now, they've got a more captive supply. So, and we see this within the local processing. There's all these processors that got money off of COVID to build these brand new processing plants. And they're dying because the cattle— people aren't bringing cattle to them because they're all getting scooped up and going these other ways. So they're just They're, they're starving out this independent sector of the supply chain.

To then have a monopoly later on. So it's a long play. Wow.

That's my theory on it. I don't know another way to explain it. Like, who, who, who likes— who will willingly lose money? Like, not very many people, except for ranchers, because they love the lifestyle.

And from the Buyer's perspective. So the, so, so the person buying it from the store though, that doesn't necessarily, who's processing it, does that actually affect them?

I mean, not really.

I mean, so it's really the rancher that feels the, the, the brunt of that and, and the independent slaughter processors. Yeah.

Right. Right.

And, and of course, when we have any monopoly in any industry, then they eventually can control pricing. They can manipulate markets. There's just so much that can happen. So it, it behooves us to continue to try to, in many ways, the way you're talking about grasses, right? Have a diversity in the grass and in the soil. You want to have that in the marketplace as well.

We have to have competition. We have to have it, or we're, in the long term, we're going to be very vulnerable.

So let's talk about some of the kind of things that are getting spread around, and I'd love to hear your perspective on it. So the RNA vaccine, that's one of the things that we get asked this all the time, like, are the cattle you're sourcing from getting that vaccine? Are they getting any vaccines? You know, other things are like, are they getting antibiotics, added hormones? So can you talk about like what you know about like Yeah. Specifically these, you know, how is it— what is common and what are you doing?

So, as far as the mRNA vaccine, I've had a lot of questions about that. It's beyond my pay grade, so I've reached out to veterinarians and folks that are in the industry. And, what they've told me is that it's not actually happening.

That's what I heard too.

Yeah, they just said, no, there's nothing like that on the horizon that they know of. Who's to say? But as far as I know, the mRNA vaccine is not actively happening. As far as hormones and antibiotics, in the '80s, everybody was putting a— you'd get this, it was a little chip, And you— or a little pellet, and you'd put it in a calf's ear, and they would gain another 30 pounds. We used to do that. We don't do that anymore. I only know one producer that still does that.

And that little chip was like a— it was releasing a hormone or something?

Yeah, I think it was an estrogen, or it was a hormone. It was hormones, like in a pellet form. But what I've read about that is the amount of hormone that is actually put into that still exists within that animal at the time of processing. It's so trivial, like your body produces like, you know, 100 times more of that same chemical, whether it's testosterone or estrogen or what, I don't even remember what it was, that it doesn't even matter. Like, it was, it was like one of these things that took off with the media, you know, hormones. But when you look, actually looked at the amount of level, the level that could be measured in the meat compared to what your body was producing, it was like negligible. We don't do it, um, just because I don't feel like it's really necessary. Um, hormones or, um, antibiotics. That one is real. And so, this is where it gets where management is crucial because the advent of all these antibiotics really comes from the process that has been put together by these, the large 4-packers and all in terms of being efficient at producing beef. And aggregating lots of animals. You know, you've heard of these feedlots that have 100,000 animals in them. And so it all stems from that. So you just— I like to think of it as like anytime you take a bunch of kids, you know, when you— if you've got kids, the first time when they first start going to kindergarten, they get sick. And cattle are the same way. If you stress them, take them off their mom, Put them on, you know, let them breathe in some dust, put them on a semi and ship them to a pen where there's a lot of different cattle, they're gonna get sick. So in that scenario, typically what happens is before those animals get sick, they will feed, they'll put an antibiotic into the feed and give them a low dose of antibiotics throughout, you know, whether it's for 30 days or 60 days, there's different programs that And that, you know, they all have different protocols, but that is, that is real. Now, I don't know, I can't speak to, is that measurable in the meat? You know, 6 months later, a year later, I don't really know that. We don't do that because the way we manage the animals, like we wean our calves, we do across the fence weaning means that we take the calf.

Mm-hmm.

And like the cows and calves are all in a pasture. And the day that we decide it's time to take the calf from the cow, which is necessary so that she'll rebreed and, you know, she can kind of reset, we'll take the cow and we'll sort the cow off and put her in a pen because she's already got a strong immune system. And then we let the calves go back out. And they go right back to the same place that they last had milk from their mother. And it's a much less stressful environment. And by doing that, you don't have the need for all of these, for the pharmacy that's within the animal industry to show up. And so, you can mitigate a lot of that stuff just through proper management.

Oh, that's great. Is there anything that isn't out there that's happening, you know, or that you know of? Like, is there, is there something that is being done to cattle or to the meat that's just not being talked about, uh, good or bad, really?

I mean, I feel like one of the big things in this— I was talking to the folks that are really spearheading the nutrient density research. And they told me that they've tested all the meat that's in these mainline grocery stores that makes the claims of grass-fed, grass-finished beef. They told me they've tested all of it and it's all a lie. Like, it's all— none of it's real. And so, I think that one of the things, one of the games that's being played in the large packing industry Is there, there's a very large import-export business that is being, that happens. And so what they're doing is they're taking all of this excess trim, which is when they butcher an animal, you're going to get down to where it's like, you know, they're trying to be efficient. And so you get down to like slices of meat that's got a lot of fat in it because you can't put, you can't put too much fat into your meat.

Your grinds.

Just too greasy. And so, they'll take that trim, they call that trim whether it's 50/50 trim, so that's half lean meat and half fat or just 20/80 which is predominantly fat. And then, they'll import these animal which are typically very lean. So, right now, the United States can import From 18 different countries, Brazil, Nigeria, like all of these different countries. And they take those lean animals and then they mix them with this fat. And they can call that, as long as they— this meat that's coming in, it's killed in a different country, as long as they break the cryobag, if they repackage it, it can be claimed a product of America. And then they can mix, you know, these other things. So, I think they've tested and there can be upwards of 100,000 animals' DNA in one package of meat. And that's something that's really, really messy. And so, you know, I just look at it like it's big money, big corporations, big money. They're not focused on your health. They're focused on making money and controlling the interests of their business.

Yeah.

And they're just really good at finding, splitting the hairs and figuring out how to be more profitable and then lobbying our government to allow them to continue participating in what I consider really shady practices.

Oh man, incredibly. This is— RC, I mean, this has been a fantastic time talking with you, informative. Yeah, I mean, we could talk for a long time, but I know you are a very busy person and I so appreciate your time taking an hour outta your busy schedule just to talk with me. But to that end, in terms of this lack of transparency, this corrupt piece of the industry, what should, what can the buyer do? What, what should they be focusing on? Obviously they can go to Country Carter Meats, but what should they be looking for in the type of meat they purchase?

Flavor. I mean, flavors, flavor.

But how do they know that before they buy it? So, you know what I mean? Like, so are they looking for specific small, small industry providers? Like, like, is there any kind of indication that they would have to know who and where to buy?

I mean, one of the biggest, one of the best things to do is to just find people that are local. Like you can trust them. You've got a higher probability of being able to trust the guy at the farmer's market or that is trying to sell locally than you do the corporation. Because if he screws up, He's done. You know, if he sells bad meat, that's it. He's his his you know the word spreads and his his ship is sunk. So he can't afford to you know to get all the claims on the label and the fancy marketing. He he can't afford it. So I'd say you know at the end of the day is like your your health is your responsibility. Like we've we've put too much on the FDA and the USDA to make us. safe. The corporations have slipped in there, they figured out that game, and they're playing that game, and the little guy can't afford to. So, you need to take the responsibility of your food and go find the people that are doing it, from the farmers co-ops to online, everybody. Everybody that's got a couple cows has got a meat business at this point. And, there's some really cool Really cool operations that are getting more and more streamlined as far as how you can procure that meat. So, that would be the first thing.

And, you guys are not just selling your meat. I mean, you really are focused on whole animal use and whole animal procurement, right? I mean, so you guys, I know your wife takes the tallow from the meat and makes skincare products. What other things are you using Or how are you kind of supporting that whole animal health?

Yeah. I mean, just, we don't— none of— we really try. We're limited by our processors on everything that we can do. Yeah.

How far, how much do you get from them? Or like, are you able to get even the pancreas? Are you— how far down that organ, the offal trail do you get to go?

Well, it's interesting you say that because we're We're talking earnestly right now about building our own processing plant. And, I think you and I talked about the limitations of processing plants. They're focused on butchering and harvesting the meat, but then everything else, the fat, the organs, the hooves, the collagen, the bones, that has to be moved to a different location to facilitate the further processing into the value-added products, right? And, that's an operational inefficiency. So, that's what we're looking at is building our own processing plant where we're not focused on how many animals can we butcher because that's what happens with the processing plant is then it's all dependent on the volume. And let's focus on more of like the value added. Let's do 30 cows a month or a week. And then, let's like a cow comes in and everything that we can possibly think of comes out the back end as far as like a value added. So, that's like this redesigning of like the centralized beef processing industry because anytime something's centralized, It can be very vulnerable, right? Versus if you had 3,000 of these little plants across the United States, like one goes down, you're like, we're still okay. Like, we'll just send the workers over there, send them 60 miles down the road, keep production going. And so we're limited with the— our processors, like they can't pull the— they can't pull the hooves off of them, which is like the best collagen. You know, the freeze-drying of the organs, like, that has to go to a different location. So, but it's a, you know, it's so challenging to go. I started out as a rancher and then I decided I'm gonna be a businessman because we're gonna starve to death as ranchers. And taking this deep dive into this industry, I'm like, it is so big, so complex that we just try to simplify things so that we can just go back to doing what we really want to do, which is like, we just want to be outside and take care of cows and soil.

Yeah, man. Well, you know I'm on board, and I can't wait to be part of that think tank in terms of supporting a slaughterhouse that you create and being one of the entrepreneurs kind of helping to figure out how to, how to sell more parts of that animal. So, um, and thank you so much. Thank you so much for your time. Tell, tell everyone where they can find you guys, uh, socials, uh, website, and, and, and maybe, uh, uh, please share a little bit about the skincare line as well, 'cause, uh, you sent me some and it's fantastic.

Yeah. So, um, If you're looking for beef, you can, you can hit us up at cartercountrymeats.com. We're really the only— we're on all social platforms, but the only one we have the bandwidth to maintain really is Instagram @CarterCountryMeats. And you can get, you know, sampler boxes, you can buy, you know, basically everything, all meat products that come from the, from, come from the cow. If you're looking for a whole or a half animal, which is by far the most economical, we sell D2C, but I hate that model. And hate's a strong word, but it makes meat so expensive because of the amount of fixed costs. And shipping is just shipping perishable products. It's not sustainable. So, the best way to purchase an animal is buy a whole or a half beat. Build your communities, connect with your neighbor or your family. And, my wife, to speak on the skincare, she's got a product where she takes the kidney fat, which is completely different than the back fat, and she mixes it with— her gift is ingredients and frankincense and myrrh and oromis and snail mucin. It's I don't know. All I know is it works. I'm outside all day, every day. I just spent 4 days at 12,000 feet with no sunscreen. I haven't worn sunscreen in 3 years. And, every year, I'd have to go get these precancerous spots burned off of me. I've just been putting this beef tallow on my face and my skin damage has gone away. Like, it's literally, it's gone. If you have an injury, you just put fat on it and it's like, it's, it's magic. It just, it heals.

Well, it's specifically also the fat that's coming off of your animals, right? It's like healthy, uh, grass-fed pastured animals, right? It's just, it's clean. Um, the meat's tasty, it, it's nutritious, and you don't have to overcook it. You don't. You could keep it as raw or as rare you want, 'cause it's gonna be, uh, you're just gonna maximize the flavor and the nutrition. So, thank you.

Yeah.

Thank you for, uh, everything you're doing and, and for sticking it out as a rancher, right? I mean, as you said, you're, you, you, this is a, you're, this is a generational ranch. And, um, and, you know, I think, I think that is the fear is that we're going to lose ranchers as, as they Since they're not profiting much, right? We're gonna lose people wanting to get into that industry. So thank you for your contributions and keeping it going, 'cause without people like you, we would only have these big box, these huge processors. And as you mentioned, that's not healthy meat. It's not as nutritious.

Yeah.

And, you're not gonna get the value from that as you do from someone like Carter Country Meats.

Yeah. No, it's imperative. I mean, if you're hungry, which, you know, we're extremely obese in this country and just metabolically not well, but we're still starving. We're starving of nutrients. And, you know, our agriculture industry needs people. I mean, I don't want to be a doom and gloom guy, but we have lost— the average farmer and rancher is 60 years old. The kids leave because there's no money and it's hard work. And we've gone from like 1.3 million ranchers to 700,000 just since 1980. And it's looming. So, the question is, who's going to raise the food? We're supposed to see only 15% of ranches survive the death of the matriarch patriarch in the family to go on to be a productive ranch the next year. I mean, it's not good, but it's in the best interest of our society just to be healthy and to allow the people with this knowledge to continue to do what they want to do. But for heck's sake, man, we've gotta be able to be profitable while we do it. You know, when people go to the store, you just like, it's like cheap is not where it's at. And so to be optimistic, I really feel that like the work, this nutrient density tests, testing it, that is the hope, you know, because that is gonna, you can't fake it and you can't, you know, We can just go in with tools now and test for it. And then all of a sudden, the labels are going to be obsolete. This game that the big money is playing, it doesn't matter anymore. We can test for it. And the only way you can do that is with healthy soil. So the folks that are doing it right, I believe that in the end, they will be rewarded.

Well, I hope so. And thank you. Thank you so much. Uh, and thank you for taking the time out to listen to Everyday Ancestral. Uh, I'm James Barry, and it's been a pleasure. Make sure to follow us. Uh, that's how we get our word out there is just by you following this podcast. And, um, and please check out, uh, Carter Country Meats. Uh, we need to support our local ranchers. We need to keep looking for high-quality products and supporting those people that create them. Thank you again, R.C.

Thank you, James. It was a pleasure, man. Thank you.

Thank you so much for joining me on Everyday Ancestral. If you enjoyed this episode, hit subscribe so you don't miss the next one. You can find the show notes, links, and resources mentioned at eatpluck.com. That's E-A-T-P-L-U-C-K.com. And hey, if you know someone who'd get something out of this, share it with them too. Stay curious, live well, and keep it ancestral.