World Kombucha Day 2024 - Chef James Barry of Pluck Seasoning

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Hey, James. So good to see you again. Welcome back to kombucha camp. We're always happy to see you and hear what's up with you. How's everything going?

It's going really well. Yeah. You know, I was just thinking to myself, gosh, when did we. When did we first meet? Was that in 2007? I mean, like, it was a while ago.

It was Santa Clara. I was it Santa Clara.

So, yeah, I thought we met in LA, did we not?

I think we met in LA. You're right. That's why I think 2007 is probably correct.

Yeah. Because I was thinking about just when I. When did I first start, you know, going down the path of kombucha and just fermentation? And I was like, gosh, well, I got out of culinary school in 2004, and it was just basically right afterwards, I. I got right into it. And I think that 2007 is when we met. Farmers markets, right?

Yes, it was definitely farmers markets. Let me ask you this real quick. Did you learn about kombucha in culinary school?

I did.

That's pretty cool. So that was. That's awesome.

It was a unique culinary school. It doesn't exist anymore, but it was called the Natural Gourmet. It was in New York. Ann Marie Coleman was the founder, and she's passed. And since then, I think they sold the program to some other school. And I. I don't think it's the same program anymore, but it was a really cool program. And then it was teaching just all these different health modalities. You know, we learned about ayurveda there. We learned about Wise Traditions and Weston A. Price. We learned about fermentation, kombuchas, kefir. I mean, we learned. You name it, we learned it. And I. I got out of that and was just really intrigued, particularly with the fermentation and raw. I was really into raw. The raw diet. When I first got out of culinary school, it was fascinating to me.

It was definitely a phase I went through in la. Like, it was. It's definitely. If you lived in Los Angeles or live or move out here, at some point you're gonna encounter the raw food culture. But in fact, I. The very first time I ever had raw food was at Cafe Gratitude, the one in the Mission. And that was the same day I met kombucha. So it was really interesting, this sort of confluence of influential experiences that all happened on the same day when I. When I first met kombucha. And that was part of it. And it Was like it. Right. I don't know if you remember the original Cafe Gratitude. They had the tables with the board game that was essentially what it had initially started as, and then it turned into this restaurant. And I believe all the San Francisco locations have since closed and there's one or two down here in Los Angeles. But it was, it was a dynamic time, for sure, in those early 2000s, with all of this information starting to percolate up. If you were on the coast or part of sort of the burgeoning food scene at that time.

Yeah. And obviously kombucha and the raw food movement really went together. I mean, they were very much informing each other. Right.

We gotta digest all that raw food.

Yeah. I'm curious. So I, I got. So I was doing it and then I started my meal delivery service in LA, and that was around 2008. And I ran that for till 2015, basically. So like seven or eight years, actually 2016. But I, I remember at one point there was this cookbook called like Eating for Geeks or something. So there was this guy who was like science based and he had done all this studying around it. And we had a phone conversation because I really enjoyed his cookbook. And he was, I was talking to him about kombucha and he was like, I'm not so sure about it. I feel like it could be causing stomach issues or cancers. And I'm like, what? Like that seems like the exact opposite of what it is for. So I'm curious how, how would you answer someone kind of asking those kind of questions these days about like, but is it actually. Yes. I understand that fermentation is good for me, that probiotics are good for me, but is there any question of like or concern about stomach health with it?

This is a great question. I would say most people don't realize it, but acid reflux isn't caused by too much acid, it's caused by not having enough.

Right.

And so when you counteract that with a base or an antacid, you are neutralizing the symptoms, but you're allowing the cause to perpetuate. And I think a lot of people don't realize that, in fact, they need more vinegar, more sour, more bitter. These are the flavors of health and digestion. And now, that said, there certainly are people who can be sensitive to kombucha. She's a powerful detoxifier. And if your immune system isn't ready for that, that can be challenging because now you're releasing toxins into your system. They have to be flushed out through hydrolysis or going to the bathroom. And so. But in terms of causing an issue, it's probably more like irritating something that already exists. And this is why we say trust your gut. And trust your gut isn't trust your taste buds, it's trust the biofeedback loop that you're creat. And so if you're consuming kombucha and you're not feeling so great, there could be a wide range of different things going on. But we always say, you know, listen to your body, and if that's the feedback you're getting, cut down on the amount you're consuming, increase your water consumption, and then maybe gradually increase it when your body regains a homeostasis. So maybe it's that, maybe it's something else that said, especially people who have a histamine allergy, it definitely could be the kombucha or the cheese or the wine, because those things have natural, natural histamines, which your body is, you know, when it's functioning properly, is able to process and digest. And these things are really delicious. However, when we have extreme dysbiosis, that's when we see we're not able to tolerate some of these really great fermented foods. And so more work just needs to be done, you know, rebuilding that mucosal lining, rebuilding the gut lining. So that way you can down the road, then reincorporate these foods into your life. But it's always, you know, put a little in, take a little out, and just really listening to how your body responds to see what's the right amount for you.

And what do you think about. Because kombucha has definitely become more popular. I mean, when we first were doing this stuff, it was. You couldn't. You could barely find it in grocery stores, right? I mean, it was, it was only just beginning. And now it's got its own refrigerator, right? It's its own section. And. And a lot of people, though, are treating it like soda. So they're drinking a lot of it. And then of course, there's some companies that are putting out inauthentic kombucha. So it is more like juice or soda in that regard sometimes, right?

Well, I would say there's a kombucha for everyone. And a kombucha is still going to be a better for you choice than a soda. And here's why it's fermented and that that's true even of the products that are pasteurized and from concentrate. And I get it right? I'm the purist, too. I only drink home fru GTs. Those are the ones that I have around me. So I'm consuming those authentic products all the time. But here's the reality. We're so toxified. There's so much junk, there's so much stuff in our food supply and our water in our air. You and I know this because we've been, you know, this is why we gravitate towards natural foods and traditional foods, is because we see how these poisons are having a negative impact on health overall. And. And so my position is always going to be there. Any kombucha is better than no kombucha. And people want to drink a soda, right? Like they're not getting enough water anyways. But if you're drinking a kombucha, especially if they're the lighter flavor profiles that we see a lot of these from concentrate brands or, you know, pasteurized brands, or maybe they're sterile filtered so that all the alcohol is removed. You know, those brands have a specific purpose and that they help to onboard people, right? Like you and me, James, we had that first sip of kombucha and we're like, oh, give me all. I feel alive. Like, this is exciting. A lot of people that's like, oh, my gosh, this was horrible. Get it away from me. I never want to have it again. And, you know, now you're missing out on the benefit of the fermentation if you're not able to tolerate, you know, those more intense flavor profiles. And so I think it's good that we have some of these softer profiles bringing people into the category. And because here's what happens. And I've seen it happen to a lot of folks and even talk to some of my commercial clients who are like, yeah, we have these softer flavors, but within a couple months, people are craving the more intense flavor profiles. Your body knows what's good for it. Like, we have so much intelligence and wisdom contained within this, you know, skin suit, if you will. And I think that it starts to become something you desire. I'm going to pause. I have something else to share, but what do you think of that?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, I talk about the palate a lot, right? So the fact that here in the US we're, we're very salty and sweet centric for our palate. And, you know, the sours, the bitters, the umamis, like, those are the three flavors that I really like to focus on because we're so deficient and those flavors and the standard American diet. And I find that when you start to introduce those to your point, even in softer forms and lighter forms, you can change someone's entire life. I was just talking to a series of practitioners just last night and I was saying how a lot of people, they undermine the power of the palate. The palate actually informs not only our cravings but, but our desires, of our adventuresome, you know, how, how adventurous we are with our food. And we, you know, back in the day when I had that meal delivery service, we would do these two, two week sugar control detoxes where we remove certain foods, certain sweets from people's diets. And in two weeks their tape, their sense of taste completely changed. They couldn't do the things they were previously doing. Their body wouldn't let them because it was a too sweet now or it was too intense or something, whatever it was. And they also found more joy in natural things like strawberries were more naturally sweet to them versus not being sweet at all, for example. So it, it's very powerful.

Couldn't agree more because I think that this is. So many of these chemicals are blocking up our taste buds. And this is why people have such an adverse reaction sometimes to kombucha up front. Because that sour pickley flavor is something they're not totally expecting and that they're not used to consuming. And so those in fact are the people who need kombucha and fermented beverages the most because it does that great job, that face that people make for kombucha. That's what I make for sweets. Like if it is too sweet, I'm like, oh, get this out of my mouth. This is disgusting. I don't want this anywhere near me. It's not to say I don't enjoy a sweet every now and then, but really my tolerance for sweets, it's the inverse, right? So I like the sour and the tangy and the sweet is just too cloying for me and that. So I only want to consume it a little bit. And I think that this is what fermented foods does, is it helps to clear that palate and it resets your expectations so that you can not only taste the flavors more, but the nutrients more. And I think those nutrients, that's really why we eat. The whole point of why we put anything in our mouth is because we need to absorb nutrients from it. And you know this whole notion that like vegetables don't taste good. Well, they don't. If you've been hammering your taste buds with sugar Pops and you know, corn puffs and, and so you can't actually taste the flavors and extract the nutrients. But what I was going to say, and I think it plays in nicely with what you just said, was a friend of mine, she was talking about picky eaters and how do you get a picky eater to start, you know, improving what they're willing to consume. And she said they don't even have to drink the kombucha or the sauerkraut, just hold it in your mouth for 20 seconds, 30 seconds and then spit it out. And she says usually within a week or two they're just consuming it because now you've gotten used to it. And again, that's because we have so much DNA wisdom that our body truly knows what's best for it when we clear the way and allow ourselves to fully experience that. And I love that you were ahead of the curve with that meal delivery program. And you know, and you're always ahead of the curve, James. And that's why I love the product that you have right now, Pluck. Tell us a little bit about Pluck and what it does.

Yeah, well, it feeds. That umami that I was just talking about, mommy, is naturally found in organ meats. And you know, similar to, I think what motivates you around kombucha and the health benefits. I also have attached my star on organ meats. I just, I believe that organ meats are the most nutrient dense food on the planet. I believe that we are struggling to get them in our diets and I also believe that that's why we suffering, you know, we have so much chronic disease. And so I'm just doing my part to see, to support people in that. And pluck is a, in my opinion, kind of the gateway, the easiest entry point into getting organize in your diet. Because what we've done is we've taken the freeze dried powdered organ meats, we've combined them with organic spices and herbs and now it's, it's a seasoning, it's a superfood seasoning that you can put on anything. You can literally mix it into food. You can use it as a finishing salt at the end for maximum flavor, maximum nutrition and it just makes food taste better. And to our previous conversation, it starts to introduce this new flavor into people's mouth effortlessly. Like so, like for example, I have a lot of families, they put on popcorn, right? So the kids eat popcorn. They eat, they get that flavor and now we get feedback that they are now more adventurous and willing to try new things because it's changing their palate. So it's just. It's an incredibly powerful tool, and it's very simple to use. You just use it like a seasoning.

Well, and who would think in this day and age that we still have nutritional deficiencies? And yet we do. And part of that, as we know, is when you create vitamins in a synthetic environment, that changes their chemical shape. And as human beings, we've evolved to instantly uptake certain nutrients because we have thousands, you know, hundreds of thousands, millions of who knows how many years of evolution and consuming these foods in. In their more raw living forms were cooked, whatever the case may be. But we. We had a really understanding the nutrients and vitality that raw liver and kidneys and heart and all of these things would give us. And now we've been so trained by the styrofoam packages and wrapped in plastic and never really connecting with our food source that we think of tongue and brains. And some of these different foods that, again, have been part of our traditional foods for so long are now reviled or considered weird or gross when the reality is, like, they got to go somewhere, and why not into our bodies and nourish us just as they have our ancestors for hundreds, thousands of years.

Well, and I love that when you were talking about kombucha, how you introduced this idea of you don't even have to drink it, you could just put it in your mouth. This idea of a little goes a long way, like little steps, right? I think we have kind of taken that. I don't know, it was maybe the 90s. Like, there was that mantra of, like, work hard, play hard. You know, this idea of, like, everything's got to be all in intense. You know, it's all or nothing. And even I don't think that that's the mantra as much anymore. But I think we still carry that into many choices we make. And I think sometimes people are looking for these big movements. If, like, if I. If I'm going to start going to the gym and eating this way and exercise this way, then I want to see results in 24 hours. You know, it's just like, not gonna happen. And, and. And what I love, though, about the little bit each day and I. And I try to tell this to people is because they go, this is the question. We get a lot with Buck. It's like, well, how much am I really getting? How much organ meats am I really getting? And I'm like, do you realize you're getting none Right now you're, you're not eating any of them. Okay. So if I give you a seasoning. Yes. It's only going to have micro dosing. Okay. It's not a lot, but you're now getting something that you were not before. And if you use it every meal, that's three times a day, two or three times a day, sometimes four for some people. Now you're starting to get more. And you just keep doing that every day, little movements every day, and suddenly you are now no longer nutrient deficient. Like, you're actually, like, feeling better, you're getting better sleep, your skin issues have gone away, you're thinking clear. Like, you suddenly have all these, these abilities that you, you, you didn't know were being masked by your standard American diet.

You know, truly. And what I love about this is like, what are you actually feeding? Right. We think it is this giant human body organism, but the reality is we're feeding the microbes. And so having them in those micro doses, I wonder if that doesn't actually have a better net effect than, you know, consuming a massive piece of liver, which, you know, you have to relearn your, your enjoyment of that flavor profile and the traditional methods in which they were prepared with the milk and the, you know, all of that was designed to make the texture more palatable, to make it more flavorful and delicious and, and these things are delicious, especially when they're prepared really well. But again, it's not realistic to think, like, oh, I need more liver. I'm going to go buy a bunch of calf's liver and cook it up in the pan here and eat it, because that's going to be intense and maybe too much. Honestly, like, it's probably better if you're starting at zero to have the plug, to have to build up the desire and the taste and the nutritional benefits from it before then tackling the bigger piece of pate or whatever it might be.

I completely agree, and I think it is. I think you're making so much sense this, that it's not about, you know, like, just one and done. And it's not about, like, okay, just do this forever. It's like, no, it's just, just the starting point that we can all go further if we want, but this idea that a little bit actually might work better for your body initially than doing tons of something, because we all know this to be true, that if you've ever taken a supplement and drinking lots of water, either or you'll notice, and I don't know at Least I experienced this. It's like certain supplements or certain amounts of protein powders make me need to urinate faster, sooner.

Process it and get it out.

Get it out. And guess what my body's getting out. The excess protein, the excess minerals, the excess vitamin. It's just. It's just you're peeing out the expensive supplement you just took. So that right there tells you. Yes, if I just did a little bit instead of so much, I probably will absorb it, and I'll probably utilize it easier and better, opposed to my body being like, too much, too much. Get out, out, out. Evacuate, you know?

Well, and now I just had the thought, like, oh, what if I put some pluck in my kombucha? I don't know. That just sounds really good. Actually. I'm gonna. I'm gonna have to try that and share that with people, because I think it's actually gonna be quite delicious. What I love about kombucha's, she's a blank canvas in that you can do the fruity, you can do some of the more sweet flavors, and you can do more savory. You can do the jalapeno and the tomatoes and. And make it something because vinegar, you know, we have it in savory situations as well as sweet situations. So I think that's really fantastic.

Yeah, you could totally use, like, the spicy might be really good with. With a fruit, you know, cucumber or cucumber. But alternatively, you could just use pure and then add. Add that to whatever flavor. Because pure is just 100% organ meat, but it's just neutral, so it goes with anything. You can go sweet or savory.

Minerals and stuff would actually shift the flavor profile slightly in a really positive way. It has been so awesome to catch up with you and hear about pluck. I love the flavor profile. It's so delicious. And I know it comes in a variety of flavors, and in fact, we're giving some away. So why don't you let everybody know about this great price we're offering.

Yeah. Where you can actually get a gift card for $25 so that you can pick whichever flavor you'd like.

And what flavors do you have?

We have original, which is also kind of our all purpose. That's the first one we came out with. It's our. Probably our most popular. We have spicy, mild, and then we have a zesty garlic, which has no nightshades, no seeds for those that are sensitive to those two things. And then we have pure. Pure is just that 100% organ meat you can add to smoothies, sauces, ground meats, kombucha, whatever you want.

That's really awesome. Thanks again James. Always great to connect with you. And where can we find Pluck eat pluck dot com?

Thank you so much for having me Hannah. And you can find us on socials at eatpluck as well all.

Thanks. Have a good one. Happy Yay.