An All Black’s Mindset with Kieran Read

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So, Kieran, I'd love to start at the start. What was life like as a youngster? What were your aspirations? Yeah.

Good morning, everyone. It's a pleasure to be here. I didn't grow up in Christchurch, so you can't ask me where I went to school. I grew up in Papakura, so in South Auckland.

Where, well, you know, I grew up in a great household. Lived in a cul de sac. My parents, my mum was at home when I was at school. She's a primary school teacher. My dad's a surveyor and they're both from. One's from Taranaki, one's from Timuru, and they ended up in Auckland, kind of away from family a little bit and had a great childhood. But a few things within that that kind of stick out to me and probably of what I utilize today and what I utilize through my career is the fact that it was an outdoor childhood. You know, it was a get out the house and play sport. Cul de sac was fantastic for us to get outside basically after every day and play with the neighbours and whether that's rugby, Frisbee, inline hockey, we had all these things going on. And so I'm the middle of three brothers. My older brother's pretty close in age, couple years older, and the younger ones, four years younger. So, yeah, it was a pretty excitable household. Yeah, plenty of sport, plenty of outdoor activities and, you know, a really supportive family. But obviously where we grew up in South Auckland, it's multicultural, it's an awesome place because you get to see so many different perspectives of life and, and of what other people perhaps are going through that we probably were fortunate to not have to go through. So that's how I was brought up. And there's heaps of things that my parents instilled in me around doing what's right and doing what's good. And my dad really probably instilled a bit of work ethic into me as well. You know, he's one who really Worked hard, so he'd get us in when he was establishing their business. You know, we'd go in and vacuum and clean his offices on the Saturday after, after sport, and, yeah, do lots of stuff together as a family. And I think being away from probably our grandparents and other cousins and stuff a little bit meant that we, yeah, we grew up pretty close and, yeah, had a. Had a pretty. Pretty nice and awesome.

I love it. I love it. Thank you for sharing that. And, folks, I would definitely encourage you take this opportunity while you're here. Sometimes a golden nugget will just drop. So please use your notebooks and just take a note. If Kieran says something like, whoa, that really hits home. I needed to hear that. Please write it down. And, you know, Kieran, the one thing I would say that I really admire about you and some of your other fellow top players is your curiosity. You're always asking questions. You're always eager to learn. And so where did that come from?

Look, I think it was a case of, you know, as a student, I always wanted to do well. For some reason, I always wanted to be at the top. So, you know, I wasn't. I was handy academically, and I wanted to push myself there, but the sport was what really drove me, and so I always wanted to compete. Having an older brother definitely, I think, was where it probably started. So my older brother was physically stronger than me, as they are, you know, fast, everything. So, you know, I would continually push him, push him to the boundaries, whether that's in running races or, you know, playing rugby out in the backyard. Just wanting to compete, wanting to try and try and beat him and win. And that requires you to learn, you know, like, I had to find certain ways for me to.

You know, get one over him because he was. If it came down to a fight, I got spat out the ass, got beat up and got whatever. So I had to try and, yeah, be really smart with the way, you know, I learned to try and beat him in different things. You know, the way it was with him was, you know, I'd sit there and watch him play PlayStation. PlayStation was just new that then when I was growing up and.

He wouldn't let me have a go. He'd play the entire game and then sit there for a couple hours watching him and then go, here you go. You can play now. And he was off. So I was like, I'm not playing now. You know, so I'd go follow him outside and, you know, we'd do something out there. So I think that was his Ploy. So, you know, he shaped me a lot of ways in that and trying to figure out, you know, as you say, like, you've got to find a different way for me to compete against him, not just make it a physical battle. And I think as I, you know, went through into high school and things.

You know, where I was at high school, I went to Roseville College, which is a co ed school in Papakura. And it's basically 2000 kids all walks of life. And if you want to be successful, you've got to really take it, you know, you've got to grab it with your own two hands if you want to succeed. You know, teachers place is awesome, but yeah, surround yourself with the right people. I think I did that really well at that age. And you know, I wanted, you know, for some reason I just wanted to succeed and wanted to do well. So, you know, probably brought about from my, you know, upbringing. So yeah, it was about just trying to do it myself. And I think a lot of that was pushed from my parents and stuff. But then it's like, okay, if I want to do it, I've got to go out there and do it myself. So that's probably where it started for me in terms of putting a bit on my shoulders to do it, you know, the way I wanted to do it.

I love it. And when you go back to those days, you had that leaning towards sport rather than school and you said you got, you got by at school but sport was your passion. Was there anybody there, like? So I had my headmaster who was a pivotal leader that got me to make this decision. Was there anybody that helped you see that there's a crossroads, like, oh, if I go down that I could do really well?

Yeah, there's a couple, like definitely a few. Like I love all sport. Cricket and rugby were my passions growing up. Probably enjoyed cricket more than rugby when I was going through high school. And so I had a cricket coach who was Mr. Alan Wimp.

And he appeared like at that age, like he was quite old to me. He seemed very old, probably 70, 80, but he's probably only 50, 60 at that time. But he would drive from Weymouth, which is probably half an hour away. And my route to school was via Karaka Cricket Club, which was my cricket club. So he'd drive in the morning, half an hour out to meet me at 7:30 in the morning at the Karaka cricket nets. So my dad, as he's taking me to school, you know, we'd come in there and my dad would Sit and wait and I'd get out and sit in the nets and he'd give me throwdowns and, you know, I'd hit balls for half an hour, you know, a couple times a week during kind of winter, just during, you know. And so it's kind of like, why is this guy investing in me a little bit? And probably I didn't quite understand at that point. I just thought, hey, this is quite cool. I'm, you know, trying to push myself. He's invested in me, but the ability for him to give me a confidence that he really backs me and is willing to. He values what I could offer. That he's willing to do all this, you know, drive out and see me and help me in that way was amazing.

Such great leadership influence.

Yeah, huge. And so seeing that, I guess, you know, at the point, at 13, 14, 15 years old, you don't quite, you know, grasp it, you know, of how important it was. But, yeah, that had a massive impact on me in terms of. So those coaches were awesome, you know, because he's not doing that for everyone, you know, so it's. It's pretty cool. And then another one as well. So my PE teacher at Rose Hill College, James Fraser, who was our kind of first 15 coach as well, so we were a big school. We had one rugby team and we scraped together a team to try and make rugby team at our school. And so, Yeah, I played first, 15th, fifth form, sixth form, seventh form.

And.

Kept them my last year and the year before when I was form six.

You know, I played county's representative sides in rugby and enjoyed it. I went to a. Well, no, I went. I chose to go with the school team to Australia. We saved money, we fundraised. We wanted to go and play a gala tournament in the Gold Coast. So I did that with our first 15 because it was, you know, a heck of a lot of fun. You know, of course, all the mates in the Gold coast for a week. So I did that and I sacrificed playing secondary schools rugby for counties and trying to make teams or whatever.

But then James, he said, oh, we got back and there was another tournament for like the county's bees or something happening. So he said, oh, he got me into that team. And he said, oh, you got some selector or someone to come and watch me. And basically the selector said to James after he said, don't bother with him, just tell him to stick with cricket.

Is what he said. And so I don't know when James told me, that's what he said. But James probably took that personally on himself a little bit. And I don't think he told me straight away or within next year.

So the next year, in seventh form, he would. Similar to what Alan did, you know, he would. He'd come in and he lived in Auckland. He'd drive south and I'd drive in early.

You know, and turn up on the rugby fields at Roseville College, which, you know, you had to pick out the class sometimes different things. And it was kind of, you know, you know, it's just me and him in the morning. And he would hold tackle pads. He would. Because our team, none of our team really had aspirations to move on or in the game and things. And I didn't really myself, but I'm like, man, this guy's investing in me. This is amazing. I didn't know about the teams I could make or what I could do in the future because of the situation we're in. But, yeah, that little investment there and his ability to just say, hey, look, we probably need to do a bit more than what we do, which was, you know, Tuesday, Thursday, for an hour compared to what first 15s do now, which is professional flipping all day, you know. So, yeah, like, he was massive. He kind of just gave me, hey, look, if you want to do this, we'll work this way. And, you know, there's certain things we can help you with. He also helped out.

You know, so the tuck shop, so the canteen. So he got money from somewhere that I got to go and grab a filled roll in a primo every day.

W. What a good man.

Because I was skinny. Probably think I'm skinny now. So I was even skinnier back then. And I've lost a bit of weight since I was playing, but I needed to put on some weight because I hadn't touched the gym or hadn't touched anything at this point. And so he kind of guided me into a bit of nutrition, a bit of gym. And he's just going off. He's not a. You know, he didn't know really what he was doing either. But then he would have been probably late 20s, I guess, at that point.

And so, yeah, it helped me in a lot of ways. So I got to turn up to the canteen and take my filled roll primo and add that to all the sandwiches I'd made at home and different things. And so it gave me this perspective on potentially what it takes. And that's, like, how I can get. Because where we were, there was no pathway for us out of wrestle college to get to professional Rugby or get to kind of anything in sport.

And he really showed belief in you.

Showed belief in me, 100 showed belief and then said, you know, I believe in you. You know, if you want to do this, let's work hard for it. And I think I was willing to work hard because that's how I was brought up. You know, my dad was said, go, you know, go hit balls, go practice, throw a ball around, whatever. So that was my DNA.

And basically from there kind of went from going playing for Rose Hill College, you know, to make a county secondary school team, which we played in a regional tournament, to making this team Northern regions, and then making New Zealand secondary schools. And I'm literally turning up at that tournament not even knowing there's a New Zealand secondary schools team. I did not genuinely didn't know you could make a New Zealand team because we didn't. No one talked about it at our school. You know, it's like not like it is now where there's kind of pathways. So I felt I kind of did it a different way.

And felt like I had to really prove myself a lot coming from a smaller school and coming from a smaller region. So, yeah, that's probably, yeah, those things there stick with you for, you know, all your life, really, and all your rugby career and even now.

So it sounds like your upbringing as well in the school helped you develop grit. Like you're going to go that bit further, you're going to go that bit extra. And to be at a regional team and then a national team and then to be captain, of course you need that grit and that tenacity.

Yeah, you do. Like, I think.

There'S a bit of that within me. I think also too. What really, it really.

I valued my, the friendships and the value of good people around you and friends and stuff. I think for me it shows how much it can really do to you. You don't have to go down this one path of this is what I'm gonna do and I'm gonna stick to it, Stick to it. You can have balance in it and you can get to where you wanna go in a different way. And rather than just being fully focused on this one one thing and all this, you gotta bounce back and you've gotta be able to take these hits or things like that. But yeah, I really valued the value of friendships and the value of being in a pretty.

Safe place with my friends and that. And so, yeah, you had your dream.

Team around you, right?

A little bit. Yeah. And then literally none of them would come with Me to the next. You know, when I represented counties, it was kind of Wesley College, well, plus me. So I was.

The one white guy in this team of a lot of Polynesians and Maori and stuff. So it was amazing. But, you know, I had to, you know, live a sort of not really a life that was kind of, you know, just really quite quiet, just because that was the nature of these teams I was representing. And so you, you pick up a lot. I learned a lot over those years. Kind of ended my schooling and when I moved on because I was pretty quiet.

And listening and just watching a lot of things that happen in sport and rugby, especially in teams. For me, I got a lot of gold out of that.

To me, that's a golden nugget right there, guys. If I was thinking I'd be like, okay, leaders listen. Leaders speak last. And you were in that team and you felt you had to sit back and listen. But actually that was a skill, unbeknownst to you, that was gonna help you as a great leader.

Yeah, I think it's definitely helped me. I think it really. That whole listening part is huge. And so, yeah, and even coming down the Canterbury, when I first came down, you come down here and it's this big team you've got walking through the gym. There's Dan Carter, Reuben Thorne, Justin Marshall, you know, Richie McCaw and all these guys. And you're a 19 year old going, wow, this is unbelievable. You know, I'm got 60 kgs on my bench purse.

60 more than me coming. And they're walking, I'm like, oh, I need to do some work.

But just inspired. Like he's just rubbing shoulders with them and not that you had conversations, you know, they might say hello as they walk past, but being in the same gym, you know, working out with them and not with them, but at different times. And so, yeah, little things like being able to just soak up and. Because I never had confidence in myself as a leader. Like I did captain my cricket teams and first 15. But as soon as I went into these bigger teams, I was like, oh, I'm this kid from this small school, I've got no right to talk. And in some ways that was probably a good thing for me because it allowed me to listen, allowed me to watch and go because I had all these ideas, these leadership ideas in my head and other people were probably trying them out for me and I was watching and saying, oh, that's probably a good thing. That's maybe not so good.

And yeah, you build up experience in this. And then I guess finally your coaches and your peers and your teammates suddenly realize that I'm suddenly voicing these opinions and I'm voicing, you know, I'm demanding of, of people.

And then suddenly go, hey, you're a leader. And I was like, I'm not a leader. I didn't, had no idea I was a leader.

What helped you develop that courage to be the leader, to have those courageous conversations?

Yeah, man, I, I, I don't know. I think it's a lot to do with everything that just built up to that point, you know, watching.

Being a part of teams and knowing what success was gonna, was needed. And I was like, it came to the point really that for me to be successful, I needed this person and this person to do their job really well. And that will make the team be successful. So if they're not doing it, I actually need to say to them, hey, we need to do this or this or that. And so.

Really just being courageous to really just say what needs to be done, if it needs to be done, you say it. And so I think I really just grew in that space. And so I could do that quite easily because that was on the rugby field at training or just having a quiet word to your mate or after training say, hey, look, why don't we just do a bit more work on this pass or this move? Because that was quite easy. Probably took a while before I could get up and in front of the team and deliver something like that. But.

Yeah, those little conversations were pretty vital. And that's, that is leadership. And I didn't know it at the.

Time, 100% when you say that, I'm just hearing the word influence. You have this influence over others. And what you just described about having the conversations and the patience and the ability to listen, I could imagine we could take that into our business lives. But I also could imagine taking it like as a parent, just that extra bit of patience, listening that little bit longer, not finishing the sentence off. So I feel like the leadership that you are exemplifying transcends through all different parts of life and business.

Yeah, it does, it does. And so you talk about, yeah, like listening.

You know, I can't imagine. So my dad took me to so many rugby games, you know, we drove quite a few places and he wouldn't say one word about the game on the way home. And I don't know how he did it. You know, I've got my kids now and I go watch my kids games and you're driving home you just want to talk to them about the game and say, you know, say, oh, what have you done? This or this. But I remember my dad and he just, he was so supportive in what I wanted to do, and I think he genuinely wanted me to do well. But he would do it in his way. He wouldn't say anything technical. He wouldn't say, you should have done this or should have done that, but he would be there for me. And so, yeah, that part of leading is definitely what I try and do for myself with my kids now.

And that's actually bloody hard to do. It's a really hard thing to just sit there and just be there and support them as kind of a person, you know, as their dad or whatever it is. So, yeah, I appreciate that. And I think that's a massive part of leading is just in some ways being there and allowing that person to shine and allowing them to be who they are.

What's beautiful, what you're saying there is, I hear, empathy. You're letting others shine. You're thinking about your kids and you're thinking about your team. And I really think that empathy is the number one trait that we need to as leaders, high performing leaders that really embody and put ourselves and other people shoes. And you can do that as a dad, partner, a leader of a business or a sports team.

Yeah, it's huge. I think.

I really valued that as I moved up. So when I, you know, captain of the All Blacks.

You know, can be. It's challenging in all these ways, but I genuinely found this point where empathy was. Was massive. I think my whole childhood and my whole. How I was brought up got me to the point where I, you know, had a better connection with the Polynesian boys who came in. You know, I could connect with these guys who were out of these, you know, potentially rougher neighborhoods and things, and also the, you know, the white guys from the farm and things like that. So I was lucky. I had that ability to connect through how I was brought up.

Yeah. And so being able to put yourself in those shoes and understanding that it's not a one size fits all. In leadership and in rugby, it's the same, you know, like, it's actually genuinely connecting on an individual basis of each of my guys, you know, was important because then they trust you as a leader.

And so it was, you know, talking to Rico Ioanni, you know, as a young fellow, and just asking him about his family or, you know, his mum and dad are a big influence on his life. So finding out a Little bit about that. And then suddenly there's this connection that's bigger than, you know, purely him catching a ball and scoring tries. It's more. And.

Then for me, if I needed to have a conversation that needed to be said with him, it was a bit easier for us to have it.

What you've hit there, I might just. If you don't mind me interrupting him. It's so gold for the person out there who's running a company or has an organization who's worried about staff retention. And I know we've all heard about the great resignation. Well, I think we've all seen it. We've seen people leaving and moving on. So to keep people engaged, it's about influencing them. And to have influence over them, you need to know what already influences them. And with Reg, you did that.

Yeah, it is. And I think it's, you know, it's hard to do because, you know, but creating that genuine connection.

You know, with everyone on an individual basis, on a connection with that person, and it shows them, they care. All they're looking for is a little bit of trust, aren't they? They want to be able to trust you, and you obviously need them to trust you. And for us on the field, it's trusting that you'll do your job, I'll do mine, we'll bring it together. And in business, it's more about trust of still doing their role, isn't it? And I'm going to allow you to do your role. And if you do that.

And have a connection, they're more likely to want to give more to the business, give more to you as a leader.

And yeah, it's not paying lip service to it. It's making it genuine. And perhaps, you know, it's probably one of my biggest strengths as a leader, was probably that part of it.

You know, looking back and then how I probably approach things. That's. Yeah. Was. Yeah. Probably the main approach for me in that area.

Yeah. And I can personally attest to that. Like, anytime we connect, it's very much. You're always engaging, always asking, and you've got a skill set. And I'm sure that others who've met Kieran today, he has a way of. When you're sitting with him, like you're the only person in the room, he's looking right at you. And that's real intentional focus and presence. And as a leader, I guess that's just incredibly important.

Yeah, I think so. I think it's important, you know, as you say, like.

Just being present with people is massive. And being ability to listen. And you've talked about it, but, yeah, kind of just listening and saying, I care about you. And so for us in rugby and on the field.

You build these great bonds around how hard you work and what you do on the field, and you sweat together and you see each other working hard, and those are awesome. So that's how it creates a lot of things. But.

The cohesion and what you build and the bonds you build, perhaps just outside of the field is probably as important or maybe just as important. Yeah. So going for a coffee or playing cards with each other and having a laugh.

Friday afternoon drinks. Yeah.

Like, for us, it was Tuesday afternoon. Because.

After our big day, why not?

It's Tuesday afternoon.

Far enough away from Saturday. But, yeah, and the all books did it really well. They genuinely thought laughter and fun was. So Steve Hanson bought probably a little bit and said, okay, for us, we have to structure fun laughter in our environment.

And so, yeah, that was purposely built in.

That's brilliant. And a lot of people think of fun as spontaneous, but actually destructive. Like, we've got to be intentional, you know.

And, you know, the fun part is the cool bit and the laughter is awesome because that creates all these things and feelings. But while you're having this fun, you're having this talk with your colleague that perhaps you don't know quite so much and you can connect on some other level. So, yeah, yeah, I love that.

And in terms of. So you're in the All Blacks, you're not quite captain yet, but you're watching, you're listening, you're being very curious. So when you stepped up and you got the big call up, what's the first thing that came to mind? Was there any. Oof, Imposter syndrome. Oh, my God, I can't believe it's happening. What was your first reaction when you got the big call up?

It's a good question. Like, I think when I did get the big caller, like, I was. I was ready. I actually genuinely wanted to lead the team and I wanted to. I did want that job. And so it was more a case of. Because I'd led the team for about 10 Tests prior to that, when Richie was away.

Like, I was primed. I was actually. I wanted it, you know, I was at that point where, Come on, Steve, you know, unleash me a little bit. I had all these, you know, feelings and thinking around things.

And wanted, you know, wanted to have a crack. And so that was probably my first thought, you know, Amazing. This is like the massive biggest honor. I guess there's an all that you can have.

But I genuinely wanted to sink my teeth into it and try and, you know, do things. Yeah, my way, I guess in some ways. Yeah. So it was a pretty amazing moment and to be able to lead the team, it was crazy. And yeah, the difference between just filling in as captain and being full time captain as chalk and cheese, man, you just pretty relaxed when you fill in and kind of don't quite understand what Richie went through for man, 10 years, eight years.

There's a lot of stuff chucked on you, on your shoulders and everything. When you're not that guy, you know, you can just focus on the game and do all this stuff, but suddenly you're taking the entire game and players and coaches on your shoulders and thinking going through this, it's. Yeah, the enormity of it is. Yeah, it is kind of what it is and it's challenging. I was definitely ready for the challenge. But when you're actually given it, yeah, it's a different ball game and you gotta really step up and, and improve a lot more. Yeah.

And in terms of you said you had like an idea of what you wanted to do, you were excited to step in. What was your vision for being the captain? What did you want when you walked away from that role as captain? Yes, I achieved that. What was that vision?

Yeah, I think I wanted to ensure that I based my leadership around the connections, you know, it was around the people enjoying what we're doing. Like it's a high performing team, we've got to be successful, you know, so it's.

You know, it's tough because you're based on.

People look at you from your results and so that's what they look at and what you're doing. So it's hard to kind of sometimes look past that as a leader. But I feel like what I left is a team that was willing to connect in different ways a bit more in terms of emotionally empathetically and vulnerability.

And I think that helped us because people now in rugby or everywhere, young people are.

Different to us older people. And so they needed slightly different things around their emotional regulation and what they seeking. And in rugby it's especially that way because you get young people coming in, there's a lot given to them and it's a lot of, you know, really good stuff. But they get used to just being fed.

You know, what to do, what to eat, when to turn up, train here, do this, do that, do that.

So it's about trying to create opportunities for them to say, hey, look, there's other things that they can work on. They can focus on this part of their life, balance of it, but also understanding what, what it needs and what it takes. So yeah, I think that's probably where I tried to lead the side.

Yeah, so. And also, you know.

Yeah. Prided myself on how my ability to captain in the moment.

And that's being calm, that's being calculated like nine to make clear decisions when your team's under the most pressure. So yeah, really pride myself on being able to, you know, stay clear headed, stay in the moment on those, on those big, big occasions. And can we all make the right call?

Yeah, I just want to dive in there. I think that's fascinating. We all have pressure. I really want to know more about that. So when you're under pressure and you have to make a decision and on the rugby field it's not like, okay, let me take five minutes and have a cup and we'll think you've got half a second to make a decision or you've got a minute to make a decision.

Yeah.

What was your thought process or was there a process you went through to help you make a good, clear decision?

Hey, James, here.

I wanted to take a quick moment.

To let you know about something.

Look, I get asked to deliver keynotes and workshops for teams and companies all over the world, from London to Antarctica, from America to Australasia, from armies to small businesses to large corporates to sports teams. But I go in and deliver keynotes around the mindset of high performers, around the habits of high performers, about how we navigate change. If you would like me to come and speak to your team or speak at your conference or deliver a bespoke workshop, please get in touch with my team. Carolinejlochlan.com will be able to help. I'll also make sure that we put that in the show notes.

Yeah, look, I think a lot of it, when you get to that moment, I didn't want to think too much, I just wanted to. You need to back your instincts. So at that point there's not much thinking going on. Yes.

There'S this knowledge of what's happening in the game, what's the ref doing, how are they defending, all the stuff that's happening in the background as a leader that's going on. But I didn't really want to be thinking about it. So I was able to just make a decision because I knew that over years, over the week of preparation, all this stuff I've built up all this knowledge and things that are there.

That when you get out there on the field, you can't be thinking. There's just no way you should be thinking about what's coming or what's going on. You literally have to think about what's happening right now, otherwise.

You know, you're not giving what you need to. So.

It was a long time to be able to trust that, I guess, because you always want to think about things. But on the field, I utilized key guys, so that. That helped me. So I utilized Ben Smith a lot, who was out the back, or Bodie Barrett, who was for the last year or so for me. So fullback. So he can see this field, he can see a lot of stuff that's happening. Whereas I've got my head in and, you know, I can feel things, but I can't quite see what's happening on the field. So I utilize them. I utilize our first five and basically just have. Would have like. What do the military call it, when you have, like, short, sharp.

Conversations. And so it would be 10 seconds, 20 seconds when there was a break and play connect. What are you seeing? Seeing this. Think we should do this. All good. Yep. Okay, let's bring the team in. Let's deliver that. And so, yeah, I was making sure I had those guys, you know, really good thinking that helped me to. If I need to make a decision. Plus, you've got things coming in, so you've got your coaches who are watching the game, you've got. So you got these trainers and water boys running out and delivering messages to you. And sometimes you just go away, you know.

Yeah. Because there's too much info sometimes. But what Nick Gill, our trainer, who's still training off the Orbax, was great at is he'd go to the right person with that and, you know, if he came to me, he'd either use it and deliver it or not. And know how to filter a little bit of stuff. Yeah. So it's.

Yeah.

I think the biggest thing as a leader is you build these processes and you do your preparation, you do all your work. That when you get in that actual moment of pressure and when these things are happening, as long as you can keep your mind clear and calm back, your instinct, I think, is the biggest one back. All this, all that stuff that's got you to where you are now, I love that.

And that reinforces, I feel, Kieran, what you're saying there, people that want to jump up the ladder, whether it's in sport, whether it's in business and they want to become the captain overnight. Well, actually, that leadership is earned and it's learned. And throughout life, we have experiences where we fail, experiences where we learn from those. So when you were in the captaincy role, what was one of the big failures? Like, oh, my God, I can't believe that happened. Like, if I could go back, that's what I learned from that I would do this differently. What was one of those moments?

I don't know. It's hard. I don't ever look back on things, and I wouldn't change anything. But I think you look back and go, there's definitely.

Weeks in leaders. When I look at weeks where perhaps we'd lost at the end of the week, and you go, I maybe let things slide. And you go, maybe I trusted.

Or assumed. Sorry, I made assumptions that these guys have done their work. They've done their work. And I thought, oh, there's a thing in the back of my head saying I should say this, but I assume that perhaps it's already been said and maybe. And then I didn't say it. And then it came to the weekend or something and things didn't go well. You always look back and go, why didn't I just say that? Or. Or hit us up about this thing. So that's probably the only biggest thing. And some of them.

A lot of weeks, you have great weeks and you turn up on the weekend, you lose.

So you can't control everything there. But there's definitely a lot of. And so the weeks when the All Blacks lose.

It'S generally not the Saturday or the game day that is the reason it's the week. It's the Sunday to Friday. And so if you think about that as a business, you know, or whatever it is, it's not, you know, the day of the sales or anything. That's not reason why things don't go. It's all that preparation leading up to there, that's the reason why things don't go well. So.

Yeah, that was always the way it was. Maybe we didn't get our mindset right on a Sunday night. You know, we weren't. Guys maybe took it too easy on a Monday or whatever it was. Something like that just really filters through the week. So there's always things that we always took out of. Great thing with rugby was that we got to learn and we could apply these learnings on the next week. There's a next week in rugby.

But you got to find those lessons, don't you? So you've got to review properly. Got to hold each other accountable in those spaces and be prepared to be held accountable and make sure that you've got a space of learning and stuff. So that's what was really good in those environments because, yeah, you want to win every game, but you're not going to. So be realistic around that.

Yeah, and I love that evaluation piece. I really like that where you guys would reflect and learn. And I feel like as leaders, that's something that we maybe don't do as much as we could is reflect on our day, our week, our behavior, our business. What do you do post rugby in terms of evaluating your personal leadership?

Yeah, look, I think it's changed. Like I'm kind of exploring this new avenue which bit like yourself in terms of like changing my role now. Now I want to pass on these kind of leadership lessons and things to people. So created my own kind of business that's doing that.

And it's in different ways. And it's crazy because, you know, I'm just connecting with people and sometimes it's just, you know, giving talks to businesses. Some of it's about culture or leadership or, you know, high performing teams.

And things. For me right now, to ensure that I'm doing that the best I can, it's really getting the balance right.

Pardon me. And so balance right now is heavily focused on my family.

And being able to then give myself the opportunity to. If I get that right, then I'm in a great state and I can deliver other things really well. So that's probably where I'm looking at my own personal leadership right now.

And it's hard because I actually don't miss the intensity and everything and all that stuff. I just know that that's been part of my life and that's awesome. I actually don't need to chase that. I don't need to chase that now. I can chase something else and see it in a different way and help people in a different way. Like so seeing a young, when I was a captain, you know, or a senior leader, seeing a guy come in kind of in your position or someone young and see them grow and suddenly go out and perform on the world stage and stuff was massive kick for me. Like, I loved it. So, you know, now it's kind of seen that in a different way, you know, with businesses or people who I work with or things like that. Yeah, I love it.

And for the person out there that's thinking, you know, I've been in this career for a long time and I'm either going to, I'm thinking of switching careers. I've got like a toe out the door or I might retire. How did you compartmentalize that? Because I remember the first time we met and we were chatting about, you know, do you miss it? Absolutely not. I was like, you knew. I do not miss being on the field doing that. How did you separate, how did you walk away from that career and being at the top of your. Top of your game to go, you know, I'm okay with that. Boom, we're done, let's move on. What was the process there for you to separate those two worlds?

First off, to caveat on that, like, I'm very lucky. Like, I did what I love for a long time and was well rewarded for it. So I didn't have to jump straight into, you know, a 9 to 5 job or something like that. So I appreciate the privileged position I'm in there. I do realize I worked hard and got to that point as well.

But it was probably the last few years of my career. It's like, okay, it's coming. Obviously I can't play forever. So rugby's great. It does have professional development windows for you. So there's something happening every week from when you first start playing. Financial guy coming in or a guest speaker or go out and do work experience or go study, whatever it is. But you don't really grasp that as a young fellow, you're just like, I'm playing rugby, whatever, I'll do that forever. But yeah, the last few years I've been going, okay, I'm passionate about leadership, I love coaching. How's that going to look? When I finished and I didn't actually have an answer, I still don't really have that answer now, which is actually really fine by me. And even this morning I've got these visions of what I want to do, but I'm happy if it's not exactly what it is in some ways, if it does take over here or over here, then. So it was actually quite cool writing down some of that stuff and good, you know, you know, putting something in place around it.

So, yeah, I had things in place. I was in Japan. I actually ended up being in Japan for seven months. Away from the family through Covid and stuff. Supposed to be kind of a swung song about my career, family in Japan, kind of more time with them, bit of traveling and obviously didn't happen. So there by myself. Basically go from training to home in a strict bubble. Couldn't connect with teammates and stuff like that. So it's pretty. So studied. So Studied applied management, degree at it. So I kind of. And it was all just about basically writing a portfolio on my life and on my learning. So it was awesome. So, yeah, really dissected my career, my early life and realized, man, what an impact that had on my career and all these learnings out of my rugby career. And so it really just set me up and it kind of like, okay, I've got this portfolio that I've got on my learnings and lessons.

Came home.

Wrote a bit of a program for like a leadership course thing and created these different things and just kind of. Yeah, so now it's kind of got this basis, got this right here and it's like, okay, I'm happy I can do something I'm really passionate about, which is helping people and do it in a way where I get to prioritize my family. That's beautiful.

What I love about that, Kieran, I think others would have picked up on it as well, is that things don't land on our lap. We've got to work for things and we've got to uncover things. They're in there, but we've got to uncover them. So post rugby you went and did your applied management degree, which gave you the opportunity to reflect, self evaluate, look at your skill sets and then that uncovered your next step. And I feel that for those of us who are trying to go to the next stage of the sidestep or whatever it might be, we often look for it to land on our lap, but it's that self evaluation piece that really uncovers what the next step might look like.

Yeah, I think it was, it was the case of literally just looking at myself and going, okay, a what am I really passionate about? So what is that thing, that vision or that thing that you really, your purpose on what you want to achieve.

I'm very lucky. I can do it in my own way here. So if I want to do this, how is that going to work? And then really going, giving myself my own motivation and what that was. And so putting that together.

Lead me to what I'm doing here. And every time I think like I want to learn, like I love learning. And so in rugby you learn every week there's something new and you can get better every week, you know, out of the game and also out of your week, decisions you make, you know, was it execution, decision, mental, whatever. All these things that. So you're constantly learning and so that, yeah, I've kept that, you know, now it's just like, man, I just want so I'M reading heaps and listening and yeah, growing all these things that I'm going, man, I'm learning a lot that if I had when I was captain of all blacks, I probably would have been a much better captain. But you know, that's how it works, doesn't it? You know, you just keep growing and learning yourself as a, yeah, as a person, as a leader. So I think I'll keep doing that because I really enjoy it.

That's another golden nugget. Like to look back and go, I could have been an even better leader had I lifted those books, read those case studies, listened to those shows. That's amazing. Humility says a lot about your constant, never ending desire to grow. And I think looking around the room, same for all of you guys, you've taken a day out of your lives, your busy lives, you've invested in yourselves and that's want to take my hats off to you all. You mentioned one other thing, another golden nugget. I'll write down after. What am I passionate about? You asked that question. That's a great one to ask yourselves. Guys, what are you passionate about? What gets you fired up? What gets you out of bed? What gets you excited? So Kieran, what are you passionate about off field? What do you enjoy doing family wise or personal wise? What are your things?

Yeah, like I love, like I'm involved in sport and I love sport as you know. So my kids now are in sport so that's a great passion of mine to be able to just go and watch and help out and see. So, you know, my girls play netball, one also plays water polo, hockey, boys playing ripper, they play touch and cricket in summer. So honestly, just going there and watching them and seeing them grow and I think sport's such a great thing in a team sport especially like for everything and young people and kids in terms of social cohesion and learning to face a little bit of failure and you know, working hard and collaborate, collaborating and stuff. So that's awesome. So yeah, I'm really passionate about that stuff with my kids. Like it's pretty cool. Now my wife probably doesn't agree but like I'm home a lot.

I have been away a wee bit so it's. Yeah, yeah for me being able to spend more time with her in different environments rather than just when the kids are there and stuff. So it's been really great.

And then probably outside of that, like hobbies and stuff, like I, I enjoy golf.

And should play it more. So yeah, hoping to play a bit more with that and still passionate about sport. So I watch sport.

Yeah, I'm involved with bit of sky work for rugby, so I do a little bit of that, which is awesome. Connects me to the. To the rugby guys and. And what have you. And I just. Yeah, I could watch basically any sport any day, all day, every day. So. Yeah, yeah. So looking. Yeah, I can be involved in that. So other than that here, like, I'm, you know, exercise, you know, you exercise for so long. If I don't for a few days now, you know, something changes in my mindset, eh? So keeping myself fit, I probably can tell. I haven't touched the weights room since I finished. Haven't touched a protein shake since I finished, which is quite nice.

Because, yeah, you had to fill yourself with a lot of food to keep your weight on when you're playing, so. And then just, yeah, running. So I got some cool, cool mates who. And got nothing to do with rugby, who sometimes, you know, we go up the hills and go for a trot for an hour or two, and.

If not with them, I'll chuck some headphones on and run around home. And yeah, it's completely different to what I've done, which was all based off on a clock and got to make this time and do it this fast and you got this much rest and then you got to do this. So just being able to go out there and kind of just cruise and listen and.

Do something like that for me is really beneficial. So it's kind of keeping me in a good spot mentally and keeps me real refreshed.

That's so powerful. We mentioned it earlier this morning. Just the connection between physical leadership and leading others. One theme that comes up a lot when you talk is people. You mention people a lot and your connectedness and relationships and it's really powerful. So when you were in the All Blacks, you were the captain, you would have had to manage people down, sideways and up. So managing coaches and managers and whatnot. So what advice do you have for people out there when you're trying to influence people? Have courageous conversations, up, down and sideways.

Yeah, it's hard.

I think.

The thing was in the All Blacks, it was, if it needed to be said, you say it. And so the environment's got to be right for that, you know, like, because no one's going to say to their boss, you know, this shouldn't happen, or, you know, unless you feel completely safe and you've seen your boss ask for help as well, and you got trust and all this stuff. So.

You know, the Environment is crucial, and that's your culture, that's all that stuff.

So that's first of all, got to be right. Otherwise it's just not going to happen. You're not going to have these conversations.

So once you make the conversations a part of who we are.

Then it's a bit easy to have. And the person who you're giving that, having that conversation with will take it in a better way. You know, it's for my growth, it's for the team's growth for us to have this conversation. So start off with that. Probably, you know, lead off with, you know, why we're having this conversation.

You know, for our benefit, for the teams, whatever it is. And then, you know, obviously.

As I said, if it needs to be said, you got to say it, you know, and that person, it's crucial. If it's crucial for what this whole organization or business wants to achieve, and if we don't have it, it's going to limit us from trying to achieve it, then have that conversation and be brave. And it's tough, hard. Probably the toughest conversations I had is, you know, as leader of the allbex was kind of conversations with my teammates who had, you know, breached protocols or, you know, slipped up, you know, and, you know, that's probably around curfews or drinking or missing things and things. So.

Those are really hard conversations to have. So I probably, yeah, had to, sure. I probably planned them a little bit, you know, so plan them out so you're not just going in there and maybe lose your cool or lose your, you know, get emotional and things like that because, you know, could be pretty angry with these guys and things. So planning them out, giving them at the end of it.

You know, what, where we could be if we get there together, you know, okay, where you could be as a person. A lot of these guys were probably the younger guys in my team. It's like, man, you could be one of these greatest all blacks, you know, if you blah, blah, blah, do this xyz, but it's going to take years to do that. And so, yep, giving them, making them accountable for their actions, but also at the same time saying, hey, look, you get this right, you can be pretty damn good and look at the position you're in. Pretty privileged position to be here.

So I, yeah, struggled with those conversations. I got better at them. But yeah, those were the hard ones to have. But obviously the other ones, some of those hardest, hardest conversations are the most.

Important, and that's leadership, is stepping into the courageous Conversation.

Yeah.

What's really crucial and just we're going to wrap up pretty shortly. But I'd love to ask you, as a leader of the All Blacks and as a leader of any business, how do you create psychological safety? So there's the leaders out there that, oh, yeah, you can tell me anything, and then they gaslight you or they, they hold it against you or they erupt. How did you create, create this psychologically safe space for your players and anybody else to come into and go, you know what? Kieran values me, supports me, cares about me. I can be honest and open. How did you create that?

I think the environment helps. Like I think it was, you know, it's not just myself, it's the other leaders in the group, you know, coaches. But yeah, I guess as a personal.

Leader and things like that, it came down to the connections. They can only trust you if they know you. You know, it's like, well.

Finding that time to connect with them was really important. I guess. So, yeah, I think that's probably the way to do it. I've kind of forgotten your question now.

What you said is, no, it's brilliant.

You've done really well.

No, it's brilliant. They can only trust you if they know you. So to me, when I hear that, and I'm sure you guys are thinking similar, get to know your people and spend time with them. Do those Friday afternoon drinks, have an off site personal development moment. You know, spend time with them outside of the office. Ask them the questions about their family, get to know them. You're right. And that's how it builds trust and respect.

Yeah. Yeah, it is. That's right. It's 100%. And I think.

You know, our environment is for the All Blacks, it's cutthroat. You know, it's like, man, you're here, you got to deliver and you've got to deliver. There's this expectation on you, there's all this scrutiny. And so. So it's pretty intense for a lot of the guys, but knowing that, hey, we're here together, I've got your back, I'm going to back you completely. And then for them on the field, it's going okay, I back you so much that you can make your decisions. If you see something and you want to do it, you go and do it. So getting them to that point, I think is time.

But it's the approach that you take. And so, yeah, as we said, it's just about making sure that you value them.

And value the process of getting to Know them.

That's powerful. Well, one last question I'd love to ask you. So we'll fast forward. You're in your 80s, 90s, or maybe hundreds, because everything's developing in terms of medical care. And one of your children or maybe even grandchildren say, hey, Granddad. Hey, Kieran. How can I go about my life and lead it with purpose? What advice would you give them?

Yeah, it's like, I think to lead with purpose is really just to make sure you're connected with something. You know.

Have a real purpose yourself. You know, find out why you do what you do. It's what we talked about this morning.

Once you know that then or what you want to achieve, it's like, man, that gives you. It's kind of no ways out, if you know what I mean, and so get that really clear. And then give yourself no outs. You know, it's like, hey, there's no outs of this. If I want to be here, I've got to do this.

So, yeah, I'd say that's what I'd say to them. I'd say, look.

Yeah, give yourself purpose.

And enjoy it 100%. You gotta enjoy it.

I love it. Well, with that big smile on your face, I know that you enjoy life and all my engagements that I get with you, I can see that you have an intentional, purposeful life. And you've done that before you got on the field. You've done that on the field and now you're doing that post field. So I want to wish you the best and I want to thank you so much. Could everyone please put your hands together for hearing.

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