The #1 Thing You Need to Stop Measuring to Start Achieving Results with Steven Gaffney

I'd like to ship you a free copy of my book, Habits of High Performers. If you come and join the 2026 goal setting workshop, I will ship you one of these today. The link is in the notes. Please come and join me to set up the very best 2026 you could imagine. If you've set up goals in the past or New Year's resolutions and they haven't substantiated, I'm here to help you across all the key pillars of your life, nail your goals. I'll see you there. Welcome to the Lead On Purpose podcast. I'm James Laughlin, former seven time world champion and now coach to entrepreneurs, CEOs, professional athletes all over the world. This show is for people who refuse to settle, people who are driven, people who want to grow, who know that there's so much more to learn and want to learn from the world's best. Each week I bring you insights from a special guest who's at the top of their game with whether they're in Formula one, whether they're a billionaire, whether they've started a company from scratch and take it to the top. I bring them to you so that you can rewire your mindset, take action and lead a life of purpose. Let's get started. Today's special guest is Stephen Gaffney. Enjoy the show, Stephen. A huge welcome to the Lead On Purpose podcast.

Thank you. And thank you for having me.

Oh, such a pleasure. I've just been really reading about you. My team and I have been talking about the work that you do and it's so interesting, your approach, your take on. I looked at your book and I was like, okay, I need to get that for myself and my clients. Unconditional power. We're going to talk a bit about that. And you and I have a lot of synergy around this idea of high performance, high achieving teams. And I really like this acronym chat, Consistently High achieving teams. So we're going to get talking about that. But you've worked with people such as, I believe, Amazon, Marriott, Lockheed Martin, US Government, the list goes on. You've worked with the who's who, high level of trust there from them, the companies to bring you in. So what is it that you do? Who do you help?

So the main work we do is working with leadership teams and it's all about making them great. So the acronym we use is chat actually, which stands for Consistently High Achieving Team. It was way before ChatGPT, but anyway, it is what it is. But there's a key distinction in there That I want to immediately emphasize on purpose. We're saying achievement versus performance. And the distinction that I see out there is performance can be confused with hard work and effort, where achievement is about results. And when we really look at teams, it's all about producing results. So that distinction is really helpful for teams to distinguish and it actually helps clear out a lot of the bureaucracy and for them to focus on whatever it takes to achieve that mission, results or goals.

That's amazing. What do you think is the biggest problem? Do you see that? How high achieving teams are striving? High achieving teams have what, what's the big obstacle?

Dishonesty or lack of honesty. And what I mean by that is not about ethics. And people are lying in the traditional sense. The biggest problem is not what people say, it's actually what they're not saying to each other.

Withholding you can call.

Yeah, exactly. And sometimes people say lies of withholding. Well, that's not lying. And I just didn't say anything like, come on. Have you ever experienced somebody who didn't say something that you later on wish they had said? You probably don't feel kindly towards them. You feel like, well, wait a minute, I, I can't trust them. So it is about building trust and it is dishonesty, but not an ethics point of view. And we incidentally, we all withhold because we get worried, right. How something might come across. A good example of that is if you ever had somebody say to you, listen, you can tell me anything, I'm, I'm really open to it. I love hearing feedback. And then say you give them some constructive criticism and then they flip out and you're like, oh, I'm not going there. I always tell people, we can all think of people where you're like, oh, I don't really go there. But it's because they trained and conditioned us to really not tell the truth.

How do we A, identify that in a leadership team and B, how do we solve it?

So first identifying it, we have to create that emotional safety. So if the number one reason why people withhold is fear, fear of retribution, fear it's going to go on the list, fear that somebody's going to hold on to it, then the most important leadership trait, and I actually believe this, the most important trait is really about creating that emotional safety. And on purpose, I'm saying emotional safety, which is, which I think is a higher standard than psychological safety, which we can discuss. But the idea is to create it safe. And so people say, well, what would make people feel unsafe well, how about this? Somebody who is like texting under the table and you know, you know, doing other things in the middle of a meeting, what kind of message does that send? Sounds disinterested or can come across as disinterested, or somebody who uses the wrong tone or people snapping at each other. And sometimes I've worked with leaders who will say, well, I know they're a difficult personality, but I can handle them. And my comeback is, well, maybe you can, but what about their peers? What kind of damage is that doing? I don't mean you have to get rid of that person, but you got to resolve that issue.

Can we talk about that for a second? Because psychological safety for the last 5 ish years has been the big focus, the big buzzword. And what you're saying is actually emotional safety from your experience in the field is, is a higher value. What's the difference between the two to start with?

Great question. So I've been at this for almost 30 years now. And so in my core expertise about how to make teams great is around getting people to get this unsaid said. And so when we're really looking at that, you have to really dissect at what's the cause. And so people say psychological safety. Right. Providing that psychological safety. But my experience is people can think of, think cognitively and get in their mind, nothing bad is going to happen. My boss is probably not going to fire me. That person may get upset, but we'll get over it. But that's not really the determining factor. It's really, they need to feel safe. And why is that? Because human beings are emotionally based and make decisions based on emotions and then they justify with logic. And I say this because most of my workers with scientists, engineers and technical folks and people are just trying to get the job done. It's not touchy feely at all. And they're, they just want to make sure that it, you know, so they'll make decisions, it looks like, on information. But first it has, people have to feel safe. So people, you know, I know I'm a little, maybe a little bit all over the place, was trying to explain this, but essentially what I'm trying to say is this. If human beings make decisions on emotions and then they justify with logic, then we have to tap into that emotions. And that is about creating emotional safety versus psychological safety.

Makes sense because logical is psychological, I get that. And then emotional, I totally get that 100%. And how do we screw that up? So let's say you've worked, you've worked in an environment and it's just awful. Like, what does the person need to do to create emotional unsafety?

Well, first they got to deal with maybe the past. Right. I've worked with many leaders who take over an organization that's not doing well. And I'll say to them, look, the number one problem and the research consistently shows this, which we can talk about is, is what's not getting said. So you got to get that unsaid said. Right. And so if we know that's the issue, then as a leader, what are we going to do to get that happening? And so you've got to look at the personalities. You got to watch how people react. So the best way to handle this is watch what happens in an argument. In an argument, you really see how people are. I mean, when things are going great and we're all winning, it's easy to talk nice to each other. But when there's problems and people point fingers, accuse others, raise their tone and create that kind of behavior, that's what I'm talking about is being unsafe. So what I believe, and I've worked with a lot of leaders, is you got to create these non negotiables, non negotiable behaviors that you're essentially not going to negotiate on. An example would be creating proactive honesty. That that's a standard that as soon as you see something, realize something, it's your obligation to say something. And so if you create that as a non negotiable, then you have to deal with all the things that might get in the way of that, whether it's personality reactions and things like that. So we can go into it more in depth. But that's essentially what I'm saying.

I'd love to talk about that. Yeah. Because I think of Boeing and the history of Boeing and I'm like, they needed you like 30 years ago because there was lots of staff now. Yeah, they need you right now. Like honestly, they do. Boeing, if you're watching this, get Stephen in. But seriously, people not speaking up when they're seeing things, and that is across continents, cultures, industries. So what is the research around that unsaid said stuff you, you're mentioning?

So Dr. Will Shoots wrote a book called the Human Element. It's an old book. And he subsequently actually has passed away, but he looked at all kinds of organizations and he found out that 80% of workplace problems are due to lack of honesty. Really not getting the unsaid said. So it's not the ethics thing we're talking about it sounds like somebody being evil or trying to, you know, alter the numbers. That's not what we're going down the path of. It's really what's not getting said. 80%. Which means that 8 out of every 10 problems we encounter at work can be sourced back to. If somebody just got the unsaid said it would get it resolved. And even if people think, okay, well, that's a big statistic, well, let's just take common sense. How often have you thought, my gosh, if they had just told me, I would have fixed the problem at work and also at home. I have a lot of people taking these principles and they use it at home because somebody reactions at home, right? And all kinds of things. And it's just, you know, it comes back to getting the unsaid said. I mean, we've all heard or met couples that seemingly had it all, and then they get divorced, and sometimes it's the other person completely shocked. I remember some years back, a client called me. I hadn't worked with him for a long time, but it was an old, old client. But anyway, he called me one day and he said, look, I need advice. I. My wife was like something like 29 or 30 years, something like that. He found out his wife had been cheating on him. And the worst part about this is when he looked back, he realized there were certain signs. But the thing is, there is the communication had deteriorated. And so it's really. Are we creating that environment where people, when they're upset, they can speak up? Because quite often we don't. Give you another example. I had a. A client of mine, this is recent, where we, in the session, he was complaining about his teenager. You know, oh, she's not listening to me. And of course, everybody like, yeah, that's teenagers. But I don't really subscribe to that. I think it's easy to label people like this in different generation, but I don't really think that's the case. And what he really realized was he was in transmit mode, lecturing, but he never really listened to his teenager. So he took the strategies that we talked about in the session around be really probing, not reacting, listening and really being where the other person is at. And he took that home. And it's transformed his relationship with his teenager. I mean, completely. So what did he do? He deeply listened be then, you know, really got that point across with his teenage daughter by not reacting, which may sound easy, but it's tough when somebody says something at work or at home that's factually Incorrect, or maybe they don't use a good tone. We want to react, but if we react, we'll shut down the other person.

I love that the power is in the pause and then having those tools that you're mentioning. It's interesting. I'm thinking of a commercial team that I'm supporting right now. And we were talking about, you know, what's the biggest obstacle for us to go from great to greatest? Because they're a phenomenal team. And one of the things was, look, we're just not willing and able to call each other out on our bullshit. We're not to say, hey, that's not good enough. Hey, step it up. Hey, that's not how we operate around here. If you were in that position supporting them, what would you do to help give them the tools and create the culture environment for them to have those robust, ongoing, honest conversations?

Well, there's five characteristics of a consistently high achieving team. One of them is think of the team, first, position, second. Again, that sounds somewhat. All right, well, I got to think about the team. But if you really think about it, many leadership teams, people walk in and think they need to represent their area or business line, but really it's about thinking of the overall team, the overall company or mission or whatever first and then you back into the position. And that's really important because it's a different mindset. Now, how it affects communication is this. I always pose this question when I'm doing sessions with top leadership teams. What value do you bring to somebody else when you don't have their expertise? What value do we bring to the other person? Because. And again, it's like, okay, well, of course I bring value. But if you ask people, a lot of times people won't challenge each other because they defer to somebody else's expertise, especially at a high level. Well, I don't know that business line or I don't have that person's expertise. I don't really understand what they're saying. It doesn't necessarily make sense, but I'm sure they got to figure it out. But actually, we bring great value because we don't have their expertise. We see things that they can't see because they're like in the middle of things. You know, the force between the trees type of situation. So I set that as a standard. So that creates permission for people to say, well, listen, I have an idea. You may have already thought about it, but what if you did this? Or I have a question, what you're doing makes sense to maybe others. But I'm lost here, and I always use this example to represent my point. How often have we walked out of a meeting and not really understood what somebody else was saying, but we thought others did? And so you don't say anything and you walk out of the meeting, you say, hey, did you understand what that person was saying? They go, I have no clue. And that poor person who was doing that presentation, nobody told them, look, you're not making sense or people. Why is he accurate?

Why do we do that?

Well, I think there's a lot. It goes back to fear, but I think a lot of it, if we're being, you know, very transparent, it's. We have a big fear of looking stupid.

Yes.

Especially at a high level.

A fear of humiliation, Right.

Yeah, yeah.

There's so much research, even I've read around, people were more likely to want to receive physical pain. Like they were willing to take like a needle in the arm than get on stage and speak in front of people and make a mistake. They would rather get hurt physically. And they did that instead of going on stage. Like, how crazy is that? We want to avoid humiliation at all costs. What does that cost a team? What does that cost? Let's say you're working with this corporate team. What might that cost them?

Well, first I want to. What you just said actually reinforces the whole point about people make decisions on emotions rather than logic. Logic would dictate that doesn't make any sense. But we're emotional beings, so it makes complete sense. And that's important because great leaders tap into the emotion, make people feel safe. And again, people are emotional human being, you know, we're emotions and we justify with logic what the cost is huge. I mean, look at turnover. Think about it this way. You, how often have you lost an employee? And I poses to leaders where you find out the real reason why they walked out the door and you thought, my gosh, I could have done something. And incidentally, you can't trust exit interviews. There's a strong incentive to lie.

Yeah.

Which is I don't want to burn any bridges. So people use things that may be technically correct but not the real answer. An example might be, I'm leaving for more money. Well, okay, but how much more money? You know? And really did money be the determining factor? A great question to ask people when they leave is say, at what point did you start to think you might want to look elsewhere? And usually it's because of the environment, the culture. Something unsettling was going on. So retention is a big Issue.

Definitely growth of an organization. And that hits two areas with existing clients and potential clients. First, existing clients, sometimes we lose a big contract and you find out the real reason and you think, wait a minute, I could have done something about that and potential clients. Because sometimes what's really interesting is people will label another person and company and they kind of box them in. So they will say things that they think are within the boundaries of how that company, organization can help. But there might be other ideas that they don't even propose. There's other things they don't even get the unsaid said about. So I've worked with companies that really look at why we might have lost a contract and how do we create better, better openings with our customer, and then how do we get customers as well as new customers to really get the unsaid said, in other words, this might be kind of interesting to think about. Branding can actually hurt us as well as helping us. Branding is how they think about us.

Right.

But we're all capable of doing a lot more that maybe other people don't even realize. So again, what's the key is getting that unsaid said.

Absolutely. I see you've worked with the US Government. We're all sitting all around the world watching what happens in the US and we've done so for decades, millennia, because whatever the US does often impacts us in positive and sometimes not so positive ways. So if President Trump was to say, stephen, mate, we need you, come on in, we want your expertise. What would you do there to help create emotional safety and help people have the courage to speak up and say what's being unsaid?

That's very hard because that deals with kind of the politics of what's happening in the US and there's many different ways to look at it. So let me just say this without. Because people get highly charged when they go either for Trump or against. But here's what I will say. No matter who's president, it is really important to create that culture of hearing different points of view, because what makes any company or country great is a diversity of thought. So that's an important element. And then strong leadership is an important element to make strong decisions. So it's. If you notice, I'm avoiding answering that question.

That's okay. I don't, I don't want to put you in a political house.

I'll get the. That said on purpose avoid. Because it's so high. At least I don't know how it is perceived elsewhere, although I have an indication but internally, it's so highly charged with people who are for the president and against the president and different. What's happening is very polarizing within the U.S. so that's why, even though I'll talk about principles, about communication, but I often will stay away from that. Only because of that.

Yeah, I totally respect that. Do you feel like, you know, the leader themselves, whether the president or whether they're a CEO, the leader themselves really dictate the ability to have an emotional culture that's positive so that you could have the greatest people around the leadership table, greatest people around the boardroom. But if the leader, the top dog, is not open to listening, is not open to new ideas, is it possible to create emotional safety?

The answer is yes. And I've worked in environments. I'm going to give you an example. But the overall intention of what you're asking is spot on. I believe it always starts from the top. So there are workarounds, but that's exactly it. They're workarounds that are not ideal. Let me give you an example. There's a client of mine that they hired a president of the company, and he didn't do well, and he wasn't good at creating the culture, but the people underneath them were strong, so strongly believed in the mission, what the company was up to. They rallied around. So they kind of ignored him. He was off doing his thing and. And ultimately the board replaced him, the president. And then. And, and, and the company was doing really well.

Because of the leadership underneath another client. Yeah. So it, but it takes effort. Another client of mine, I was hired to work with his team, to inoculate his team against the company culture. This is a different situation because the company culture was not very good by that CEO. But, but the particular business unit that I was being hired to and worked with, this with the person who was in charge of it, he was just like, doing what we all need to do in life, control the controllables. What can we control? So what I've noticed about great leaders is they focus 100% on what they control, which is a lot to do with unconditional power. And they don't spend any energy on what they can't control. So that's what I worked with his team on. How do you inoculate yourself against a culture that was not really serving, take whatever good parts of it, keep heads down and do a great job? And that's what they did. They kept performing and achieving despite the company culture.

That's beautiful.

Yeah.

So I love that because in New Zealand, we have some really incredible companies, but often they report to European head office or Japanese head office or American. And the culture in those different head offices is vastly different than Kiwi, New Zealand, Australian culture. And often my mission with them is to go, you guys are amazing. You perform in your own way. Let's create our own subculture within New Zealand and keep performing high. Don't worry what's being said or done up here. You know, do what you've got to do to tick the boxes. But you guys can perform really well. So I love that, that word inoculate, that's fantastic.

Well, and it's really true just in all in life, period. Just think about our family, right? There's a lot of things we can't control. We can't control necessarily the state of the economy. We can't control a lot of things that are out of our realm, let's say the politics and. But what we can control is what we're going to do about it. So in 2009, I got diagnosed with cancer. I'm completely fine, but at that time I got diagnosed with cancer and the US as well as the world was going through pretty big recession. And so one of the first things to obviously get cut and a recession in companies is what I do, Right, Consulting. I don't agree with that, incidentally. I agree.

But they did. And so I faced with, you know, I couldn't control that I had cancer, but I could control how I responded to the cancer. I couldn't control that we're in the middle of the recession, but I could control how my company responded to the recession. So what I did is I took that as an opportunity to retool my business, look at everything. And from that year on, we've had our best years and ever in business. It's not that I'm that smart, it's just you have to focus on what you can control. And, and that sounds so simple, but really you listen to a lot of people and they're always complaining and griping about things they have zero control over, which makes no sense at all.

Yes. Delusional. It's interesting. Can we go back.

Yeah.

To the moment that you got the diagnosis. I think about this a lot. You know, I've had some health moments. Not, not big scares, but things where I'm like, maybe I've got something. And certainly I get this feel of dread initially. So can you talk me through how you responded when you got it and then how you started to shift things through that mindset?

Hey, James here. I wanted to take a quick moment to let you know about something. Look, I get asked to deliver keynotes and workshops for teams and companies on all over the world, from London to Antarctica, from America to Australasia, from armies to small businesses to large corporates, to sports teams. But I go in and deliver keynotes around the mindset of high performers, around the habits of high performers, about how we navigate change. If you would like me to come and speak to your team or speak at your conference or deliver a bespoke workshop, please get in touch with my team. Carolinejlochlan.com will be able to help. I'll also make sure that we put that in the show notes.

Yeah, it's a great question, because people think, oh, he's motivational and stuff. He probably reacted well. No, I didn't react well. So, first of all, what I had was testicular cancer. So it's a it. And I say that because it's one of the few cancers that's curable and it's easier to take care of. I still had to go through an operation in chemo, but there was never in doubt. But in the very beginning, I didn't know that. So I get diagnosed with cancer, and I'm like, immediately, I want a second opinion. And the doctor goes, sure, today, like. And I'm like, today? He's like, yeah, you got to move out on it. So I was like, oh, my gosh, this is. I. You know. And so anyway, again, everything turned out well in the end, but then, so I did, you know, talk to people and research, and they said, you know, you have a 90% chance that you're going to be fine. What did I do? 10, I'm going to die. That's where I went to. And I share that example, because even though my training is about, you know, optimistic and trying to do all that, you know, when we. It's easy to say this, but it's hard to always implement, especially when there's bad news. I mean, I see speakers who will get, you know, get tremendous, great, you know, feedback, you know, on the sheets, the evaluation form. And they'll focus on one person who says something negative. And I'll see leaders who will be loved by their team, but one person is really negative and always a naysayer. They get so hung up about that person. So I say this because that's how I reacted. And then. Then I had to think through this. And then eventually I'm like, okay, what am I going to focus on? And then, you know, I saw another doctor and the doctor said, yes, technically, 90%, but we know how to take care of this. And I'm one of the lucky ones because then I was immediately relieved of the future. I just knew what I had to do. But I'll tell you, that changed my life because I became aware of so many things that I was really unaware of, and it changed my life in a lot of ways. If I can I share one example of this. It's very vulnerable, but it's. Is it okay?

I would love you to.

So is really embarrassing before 2009, when somebody would say about a health crisis. I cognitively got that, but I wasn't very sympathetic or empathetic or however you want to language it. I, you know, obviously a major stuff, but I mean, you know, if an employee was feeling sick, I wouldn't say this out loud, but inside I was like, okay, so you're still coming to work. You know, that's how I was after this. It changed my life. I became so sensitive. When somebody goes through a health situation, major or even minor, or a mental health situation, major or minor, or a family member, a relative, I completely have a different case. And it's a different way of thinking about that. It's embarrassing how I was. But the good news is, I mean, the cancer changed my life. The other thing it really did is help me appreciate the, you know, the present. I was always putting stuff off. You know, I'll get that done. I'll get that done. Because I thought, well, you know, I'm going to live for a long time and everybody else was, but that's not really how it is. And so, you know, I'm not thankful I had cancer, but given that I had cancer, it did change my life in so many ways, in the positive ways.

That's beautiful. I think we all need to hear that. And what were some of those things that you actually, in the couple of years following that, did and followed through on and got launched the thing or completed the thing, or told the person that you forgive them. What were the couple of things that you've done?

Well, you know, you just mentioned forgiving. For me, that was a big part too. Because another thing I realized is when people don't know what to say, they sometimes don't say anything. I didn't realize that. So with the diagnosis, I noticed that some people who I never expected to say something would call me and then other friends didn't say anything. And I was like, what's. What's going on? But I realized when People don't know what to say. They don't know. They often don't say anything. So after this, this became also a big message around getting the unsaid said. And I say to people, listen. I say this to people who are listening or watching this, man. If you know somebody and you're thinking, God, they're going through a, a tough time, I don't want to bother them. Here's what I would suggest. Call them, reach out to them and say, I don't want to bother you. And I don't know what to say, but I just want you to know that I'm thinking of you. That goes a long way. So when we're not sure what to say, say that. That's one aspect of how it changed me.

That's huge. Yeah. Makes you, I think it makes you more human. Right. It makes you more connected.

Yeah.

What a gift.

Yeah. It's long lines of getting that unsaid said, you know, it keeps coming back to that message.

Yeah. 100. I appreciate you sharing that and appreciate you going into a more vulnerable and personal kind of angle on that, too.

You know what? This conversation just makes me think, you know, in life, it's really the most challenging moments that change our life in so many ways. I'll give you kind of a more humorous example. I've done, obviously, a lot of podcasts and things, but also done television whatnot. And one of the first major television things I did was on msnbc. I don't know if you're familiar with that network. Okay. So I, I, I did it. And I, and James, I thought it was really excellent. I, I thought, you know, it did a great job. So I go back to the office and I said to my assistant, so how'd I do? And I'm thinking she's going to say, oh, you were excellent. She goes, do you really want to know? And whenever somebody says something like that, it's never going to be a good.

No, it's not good.

Yeah. She proceeds to tell me how it was pretty embarrassing how I repeated myself. I was all over the place. And, you know, she meant it and said it in a constructive way. She wasn't trying to hurt my feelings. She said, okay, but if this is what you're going to do, you're going to know this. And I, she saw something I didn't see. Remember, people who don't always have, you know, or from the outside perspective, they see different things. And so she was right. And so for the next few days, even longer than that, I Mean, I was really depressed and embarrassed. But then again, I eventually realized that all those things I can change, I can learn from that. And so the next time I did a television interview, I was light years ahead of where I would have been if she hadn't given me that feedback. That's why it's so important to get feedback from people. And when people give you feedback, even if it doesn't come out right, which this did, I mean, she had well was good and well intended is feedback's a gift. No matter what, it's a gift how good.

And it's allowed you to go on and do what you do now at the level you do. So it's a. That self awareness piece that you wouldn't have been aware had she not raised that awareness. But then you took the action, controlled your controllables, improved your skill set. It's, it's incredible. Now, Stephen, may I ask, the chat framework, for someone that's listening, what are you doing? If there was two or three of those key elements from the chat framework that you say these are the most important ones, what might they be?

Well, the first one, can we talk about the mindset? I mean, there is 12 essential elements of a consistently high achieving team. But the mindset deals with the latest book, Unconditional Power. So is it okay if we talk about that? Because that'll impact teams.

I would love that.

So have you ever noticed that when you're in a good mood, you're smarter? We're all smarter. We're in a good mood. Right. I know that sounds to get obvious, but you know, when we're feeling good, somebody throws us a business problem or life problem, we're like, I got it handled. But when we're down, sad or lacking sleep, somebody throws us a problem, we're like, oh my gosh, here we go again. So mood actually really matters. Morale matters and mindset matters. So what I the book is about unconditional power is through research and experience with working with, again, thousands of people. I realize there's three types of mood or mindsets. The first type of mood and mindset we've all been in which is powerless. That's the feeling. What difference can I make? I'm only one person here. I'm only one person. Organization and even I've worked with CEOs who even feel that way. It's lonely. They're like, you know, I know I'm in charge, but I'm only one person here. How am I going to get everybody to move in the direction I Need to. So at all different levels, we all at times feel powerless. Then the second type of mood or mindset is conditionally powerful. And that's where we recognize we have power, but it's conditional on other things. That's when somebody says, well, I can get that done as long as they do their job, as long as we have the right talent, as long as the economy is right, as long as I have the right the amount of time or money or whatever, it's always conditional. You know, our power being conditional. But the desirable trait that consistently high achieving teams have, the desirable mood and mindset of unconditional power is where we recognize there are legitimate conditions. But we spend a hundred percent of our energy on what we're going to do about it. You can't control the stimulus, but you can control the response. Right? Control the controllables. And there are three characteristics that I've noticed when people get into that mindset that's really important for great teams. One is take full responsibility for their attitude and actions. Second, believe anything is possible, which we can talk about because really almost anything is possible. And third is take action. Have you ever met somebody who does a lot of talking but they don't take action? So it's important to take action. So anyway, those are the.

I love the possible framework because for me I talk a lot from stage about problems, present possibilities. And often when people see problems, they just see obstacles and. But I think really powerful leaders, when they see a problem, they get excited and they start to go up. What are all the possible options? So what have you learned? What have you discovered around that possibility side of things?

Well, one of the, one of the ways to get people to be unconditionally powerful because the book is once it lays it out as ways to do that is exactly what you just did, is reframing it. So reframe all problems or opportunities. Are you going to focus on the problem? Are you going to focus on the opportunities? And that really is a truism in life. Any problem creates opportunities. I'm not saying all problems are good, but all problems do create opportunities. Cancer, recession. Right. We just talked about all kinds of things. You know, people go through tough things and that's not to discount those tough things, but it always creates an opportunity. And that is reframing is really important skill as a leader to do with others and to also do it with ourself to. So changing the frame. Another way to reframe is enlarging the frame. Put it in a bigger picture. You know, we all go through tough stuff and we have to remember the big picture in life. You know, it's, you know, sometimes we're like all hung up about something, but when we look at the big picture, we've gotten through this type of stuff before and we'll get through this again. Or maybe another way is to reduce the frame, take a big problem and you make it into a much more doable thing so people can move out. So I love what you were saying because from the stages, like reframing is a really powerful skill set. Whether they get the book or not, the most important thing is reframing 100%.

Well on the book. For the person that's listening or watching right now, go to the show notes right there. You can get the book ordered. And I'm also going to put all of your socials where they can connect with you, your website as well so that they can kind of follow along and join the journey. So I want to chat a little bit more about this framework though. So mindset was crucial. What else comes to mind when you think of some of the most powerful principles?

Well, then there's 12 essential elements. So a set of tools. One of them we talked about, everyone shares to get the unsaid said yes. Another one is around notice versus imagine. So notice versus imagine is the ability to distinguish what a fact is from opinions, conclusions, whatever. So fact versus everything else. Again, sounds obvious, but quite often people operate based on their opinions and they think their opinions are facts and it's still an opinion. So there are only three things you can ever notice about a human being. Appearance are major categories. That is Appearance, actions and words. Everything else is made up in our mind, which we can, we can have conclusion, but the ability to separate that. So if you look at a lot of reasons why people are upset with each other, it's not the facts, it's the interpretation of the facts. Here's an easy example. I was doing a session and this lady shared, I my boss writes rude emails. He's rude. And I said, what's going on? She said, well, I ask him a question and he answers the question in an email. So I said, well, what's the rude part? And she said, well, that's all he says. He just answers it. He doesn't say, hello, how you doing? Hope things are well, Anything, it's just the answer. And when she went through the session, she realized she was building this entire narrative that the person's rude, maybe he's on the go, whatever. It doesn't necessarily mean that or somebody who's looking at their watch, they could be disinterested, but they also are trying to manage time. It's. It's remarkable how people make stuff up, but they never check in with each other. It's just like, you know, this is what I often say to people. How often have you had something negatively impact your life where you thought, if they had just asked me, I could have corrected it. Or how about this, Somebody's upset with you or us or whatever, but they don't tell us, they tell everybody else.

Yeah.

You know, it's just remarkable how people think their imagines or opinions are facts rather than distinguishing it and deal with the facts and also make decisions based on facts rather than the opinions.

And for the person listening right now that maybe engages in some of that and goes, God, I do that. What's a couple of tactical tools that they can take away right now just to start improving?

Well, first, I want to actually give everybody an opportunity. This doesn't cost any money. If they mention our show, we have now all these tools online. And so there's a system, but they can get the first month for free. So what I mean by that is they mention the show they can go through, incidentally, there's all this stuff on unconditional Power, how to reframe. There's the whole thing of notice and imagine. They can watch it and learn. And there's many tactics of which, some of which will cover, but they can go to that and they can drop off after a month. So it's not. They have. They're not obligated by any means. It's just all they have. But they do have to mention your show. So if they go to our website and mention your show and say they want a month of this, you know, the system for free will do that.

Sure, sure. I, you know, I don't like when people come on shows and they sell stuff and they don't give away things. I'm all for like, you know, it's abundance. Right.

So I'm with you on that. My audience will deeply appreciate. I'll put a link to the website and then I'll remind them just to make sure that they mention lead on purpose.

Great. Excellent. And so there are many tactics around this, but here's a few. First of all, to recognize that time deepens wounds and deepens problems.

We. I don't know about you, but I was brought up like time heals all wounds. Right. So you have a problem with somebody, like, I'm going to give it Some time. And what's interesting is when we back off, it does take down the emotion, but it's quite often the person's not forgetting it. Even though they'll say, oh, I'm over it, they're often not over it. And so what I've learned is time actually deepens wounds and deepest problems. And if you kind of. If we think through this, it makes a lot of sense. Contractual problems left alone get better, get worse. Health problems left alone get better, get worse. Relationship issues at work or at home, if we leave it alone, if it's a problem, it doesn't tend to go get better, it gets worse. And all that it's doing is getting buried. For example, have you ever had somebody where you're like, they bring up something from, I don't know, a couple months ago, a couple years ago, and they're upset with something. You're like, I have no idea what you're talking about, but it's been seared in their mind. Sometimes not correctly, but that's a whole nother point. But they. Because they never got over it. So I always say to people, when you have small problems, take care of it. Big problems were small problems that we neglected. Years ago, there was a book called don't sweat the Small Stuff. I don't believe that.

Always sweat the small stuff. I'm with you on that. The small stuff is the big stuff. I'm with you.

Oh, gosh. Because he will come back to haunt us, right?

Yeah, it is like, I'm with you.

So anyway. Oh, this is kind of a. Interesting about how people just don't let go of stuff and how you got to move forward. I was doing a session and this lady said. Talked about a problem that she was having with a co worker, and there were about 30 people in the room, but this. And she was talking about this, and she was going on. She's very heated. I said, well, listen, you got to take these tools. You got to talk to that person. And she goes, I can't. I'm like, well, I think it's a good idea. She goes, I can't do it. I said, well, why not? And she goes, because he's dead. This guy, a coworker from years back who was dead, and she's still holding on to an issue. It's like the definition of not letting it go.

Absolutely.

Hold on to stuff.

Wow. Isn't it interesting that us humans do that? We carry this emotional baggage.

And we all do.

And that's at times, and that's why we Got to grow from that. You know, people say fail fast, but you got to fail fast and learn fast. Right. We have to learn from that. And so we've all been hurt and things and stuff, but, you know, time deepens us and deepest problems. And my other proof positive of this, if time really did heal all wounds, nobody would ever be complaining about their childhood, about their parents, about things that happened years ago. Because if time healed all wounds, it would heal it.

But.

But it doesn't.

It's a nice quote, but it's not really factual at all.

Yeah. Isn't it true? It's like there's certain true thing. People say stuff, but if you check into. It's not really true.

No. Like I, in recent years, I've had two friends who took their own lives and people like, don't worry, time heals. It's all going to be good. And I'm like, no, it's not like that. When I think of that, that's always just going to be devastatingly sad. That's what that is like that moment that they decided to do that, that's just always going to be really sad. Yeah. Time might change life and you might have less time thinking about the thing, but when you think about these things, of course it's going to be sad. So I'm with you. Like, time doesn't heal everything. Certain things that happen, like 9, 11. All of us know where we were on that day. I was in Ireland at school. We were talking about it at school, went home and my granddad had it on his TV and we watched it for hours. All of us in the world remember that. That's never not going to be sad. That's always going to be devastatingly sad. And time won't heal that sadness. That's just what it is. So I have to 100 agree with you on that.

Can I ask you a question about this?

Of course.

How did you move forward again? You know, just dealing with that. What would be some good lessons to say to people out there if they're, you know, having or worried about somebody committing suicide, hurting themselves or whatever? Because I think again, it comes back to this whole idea of get the unsaid said. So are looking back or, and, or moving forward, just saying, is there anything that you kind of pull from that you can share with others? Because I think that's so important, what you just brought up, not to just turn this around on you, but you just said something I think is really a lot of people need to be aware of.

Yeah, I think Suicide stuff that a lot of us don't talk about. It's bit taboo. And I had a former US military agent on the show, and he said, you know, look, I've thought of taking my own life about 12 times. And he was really open. And I says, when was the last time? And he says, four months ago in a hotel room in Toronto after a keynote.

I said, okay. And so we talked about that for a bit. And I said, what's your mission? Like, we'll get you out of bed every day. He says, I want to see an entire year in North America where there's no suicides. And I says, man, that's incredible. That's like, that's a mission. And we got talking further about the mission, and then randomly he says, I know.

I will die by suicide. And I'm sitting on the show just like you and I right now. And I'm like, wow, baffled. And I thought, you know, this guy's asking for help, you know. I says, well, look, you do realize you've got this amazing mission, and for you to see this mission through, you've got to be alive to see it through.

Yeah.

And he's like, you're right, I do. And it was quite an incredible conversation. And he's a guy I keep in touch with, but I know I can't control his decisions. I can't control what he does. And none of us can control anyone. We can only control our own responses to our own thoughts. Right? So when friends have taken their life. I had a young student who did the same.

You've got to just go back and go, did I say the things I wanted to say? I'm very open about how I feel. I tell people I love them, tell people I'm proud of them, tell people they should be proud of themselves. I'm happy with that. I don't think I leave too much unsaid. I'm also happy to tell people when I'm. You're not happy with them and when they are stepping over the line. You know I'm Irish, right?

So I'd say tell people honestly how you feel. And when the unexpected comes, you have to grieve. You can't just bottle it up and say, that's all good. It's fine. You know, you can't do that. You've got to embrace the grief. So I think get good people around you, get out of your head, onto the page. I journal a hell of a lot, Steven, and journal my emotions, journal my thoughts, my dreams, my goals. Um, and then Just yet take time every now and then to reflect on those people. And I think we can learn a lot. I'm always curious when someone does something so drastic like that, like, but why? What was going on? What can I learn? You know, I want to live a long life. I've got a lot to live for. I love life. I enjoy getting up and I'm thinking, but so do those people. Like, some of these people are some of the most successful people I've ever met.

Yeah.

I'm going, what changed? What happened? Is there things I can look out for in life to make sure then those. Maybe it's financial stress, maybe it's marital stress, maybe it's shame, whatever it might be. You know, all these things have been different for the different people I've known that have done it. I go, we've got to be able to talk about our things. We've got to let our emotions out. And that unsaid said, I think that could save a lot of lives. Like, it's a. That's a really powerful tool.

Yeah. Thank you for sharing all that. And what's striking about all this stuff is, like, people got to talk about stuff. You know, it's so easy, you know, and even in my field and stuff, I try to talk about all of the challenges that I've encountered and working through it and then how I've come. Because then we can teach others and others can learn. And sometimes people. I mean, we've all met people who, like, the only thing they say is all their successes, and they're always touting things, but it's really the vulnerability, you know, I found vulnerability inspires honesty. And so when I'm working with leaders, I'm like, be vulnerable. You know, you can share the challenges and then share what you learned. But if you just say, oh, it's important that we do this, isn't this.

No.

Tell them how you screwed up or what you learned or what happened. So a great question I love to ask people in. In when I'm doing teamwork, is what are the three pivot moments or. Or pivotal challenges that impacted your life that defined who you are today? In other words, I kind of call this the movie question, and I word it differently, but essentially it's like, what are the three pivotal challenges? Situations are usually the toughest ones. And how did that make you be the person you are today? And it's so insightful. I mean, people will share, you know, how they come from an alcoholic father or. Or somebody or suicide or something. I've Heard a lot of different things. It's the tough ones and they're usually, it's pretty emotional. But what that does to the leadership team is it actually explains to people why we are that way. So when we debrief out of it, what people say, now I understand why they're that way. You know, when I use the following example, like I have a friend of mine and you know, she doesn't ask for help, but when I finally got to know her, I. She shared how her father's an alcoholic and her mother's had three jobs, you know, ever since she was little, had multiple jobs just to make ends meet. And so she learned when she was very little girl that if she was going to make it in life, it was going to be up to her. And so she's not programmed to ask for help. And so now knowing that, you know, we've all met people, like, they seem struggling, but, you know, I don't want to say anything because if they need help, they're going to ask me. But that's not how life is. It may be for us who may be outgoing, willing to ask, but not everybody else operates that way. And then I had a client of mine who went through this and shared with his team, you know, some stories. And then he said, look, I'm so bad at asking for help that if you say, can I help you? I'm going to say I don't need help. Even if you ask me. What I need you to do is if you see me do something that I shouldn't be doing or don't need to do or could be delegated, I want you to say that and say, you don't need to be doing that. Let me do that. And that when he shared that, that created so much permission for the team and it changed the whole dynamic. Again, vulnerability inspired honesty. And what that did is get the unsaid said. So often in life, if we look at ourself and share those challenging moments, it opens up the channels, takes people's guard down and we learn why we are the way we are.

You're spot on. You're absolutely spot on. Thanks for sharing that. I think that more of us need to lead with vulnerability. Example. A few years ago, I was working with an executive leadership team and the leader, who's quite tough and had a tough exterior and high discipline people had a bit of friction with him around the table. We did an off site and I said, what has shaped who you are today? A similar question, but different than what you asked and he shared a story where he shot and killed someone. And it was. Yeah. And it was in a moment of defense, self defense, and happened in his younger years. But he's like, this has shaped how I think about things, how I do things, how I react to things. And from that point onwards, everyone was like, whoa, this explains this guy. Like, this explains, like, why he gets so passionate about people and he gets overly passionate and has high standards and discipline is everything and safety over everything. And that really opened everyone up to be super honest with him and super vulnerable. So I think leaders are a little bit buttoned up at times, and it's probably important to chill out, open up, be honest.

Yeah. And there's so much about vulnerability, but it really is a game changer. And again, I share with you people, you can share this in a powerful way, but it is so, so important. You know, the book Unconditional Power, I started down that journey because I've suffered from moods. Now, I was never clinically depressed, but I was the kind of person that if something with, you know, bad email or bad encounter, it, you know, I shared some of those examples. Right. With my sister, whatever. But it would really impact me. And, and, and so. But then I noticed that some people taken in and they bounce right back. Sincerely, not in an inauthentic way. They bounce back. Like my friend Willie Jolly. Willie Jolly's a motivational speaker, and that's his real name, Willie Jolly. And I love that he's. He's a great speaker. He's almost always positive and authentically positive. I've known him for almost. I mean, ever since I got involved in the business. He really helped me, especially when we got started. When I got started. But I say this because that started down this journey. Why are there people like Willie and other people that bounce back? And then I. That's how I started to do the research, because actually I was trying to use it on myself.

Yeah.

And then I started teaching it and people go, this is really great. Like, I had always heard of reframing, but I was. It was confusing to me. And then I found out there's three major reframes that simple, you know, reduce, enlarge, change of frame. Third one being change of frame. But there's many other strategies, like. And so. But it was all around to learn for me. So even the stuff on honest communication, getting the unsaid said is because I had problems with that. In my case, I was more brutally honest. And so I didn't really understand the measure of that, you know, and really coming from fact versus a whole bunch of opinions. And so I've learned that it's just many, I mean, so many times managing. I'll share with you another story. I had this is some years ago, but I had an employee and, and she, when she was leaving, she said this is again embarrassing, but it was learning moment. She goes, when I started working for you, I was so confident and I'm leaving and I'm now not confident at all. And I was devastated by that feedback. And I was like, oh my gosh, how could I have that impact? And I started to realize I was good at getting the unsettling in kind of a brutal way, but not in an inspiring way. And that had me learn about how to say things truthfully, authentically, in a good way, but lead people so they're empowered, not disempowered. It never occurred to me. So, so many things in life I look back because I maybe I just screw up more than people, but whatever. I don't know. It's just you learn stuff or I learn things and then, and then I love teaching it because I don't want other people to make these same mistakes or at least if they have to know how to fix it moving forward.

So the world is lucky to have you because you know, you're honest and you do learn from your mistakes. You're not trying to say you're perfect. Your story isn't just unblemished and you made it to the top. It's like you truly live in the moment. You are sharing your wounds and, and your wisdom. I think that we need more of that. So I want to remind people, get the book. It's going to be link in the show notes. All of your socials are in there. Plus, thank you for the offer for the free system that people can go and check out for a month. Thank you. I'll put that in. They'll mention the show. But one last question for you, Stephen. So I asked this to every single guest I've had so over. I know three or four hundred guests and I'm always inspired, inspired by individual answers to this. So if you and I were to pretend for a moment that we'll fast forward many, many years into the future and you're highly aware that it's your last day here on earth and someone you love dearly, a young person, they come into the room and they say, steven, how do I live my life and lead it on purpose? What would you say to them?

It's interesting when you ask me that Question. Because there's my knee jerk standard answers, right. Honesty and all that stuff. But I, I think the thing I would say is spend way more time loving people than criticizing people.

That's beautiful.

When I look back at my life and I've another kind of realization is love is the ultimate North Star. And what I mean by that is when you're stuck and you're not sure what to do in life, if you just come from love. And I don't mean so touchy feely, although it could be that it's just like thinking, you know, what do I love to do? Where would I love to go? Who do I love to be around? And then if there are people that are bringing you down, deal with that, confront that distance, whatever you need to do. And then just be kind to people and appreciate. You know, I'm big on appreciation. Another kind of exercise I love to do with, with teams is putting sticky notes. And you know, everybody pad. And sometimes they do this and I used to always do this, but where they can appreciate each other and people are like, oh my gosh, our eyes roll but, but when they get notes and you know, it depends on the audience and things like that, but when they get notes, it's. It's a game changer. I remember I was doing a session in Florida and this. And we were debriefing out of these exercise, you know, people getting these notes and stuff like that because they're always thinking, oh my gosh, you know, it's like Valentine's Day when you're kid. But whatever. Anyway, he said, you know, I don't do this at work. But he said, I don't, I don't do this at home. And he got, I mean, I get choked up just thinking about it and, and he got choked up and I, you know, nobody's ever left a job because they were appreciated too much. Yeah, people thank me too much. Nobody's ever done that. No, nobody's ever gotten a divorce because there's too much love and appreciation. How to get out of that one? Too much love. I mean, so it tells us. And you know, no kid grows up dysfunctionally because their parents love them too much. And I'm not talking about everybody getting an award, I'm just saying. So. Yeah, I mean, it's a great question what you asked. I just think, you know, it's all. I mean, it's like what that Beatles song is, you know, all we need is love. And maybe it's an oversimplification, but love is that north Star and I'll show you. Can I share one more story about.

Just because it's, it's you. You ask great questions because it's inspired me and things I have not shared. And I don't even remember the last time I was doing a session for a company and this, the CEO kicked it off and she talked about love. And that kind of got the unsaid said for me because previous to this, right, you think about this and I, I don't want people to think, oh my gosh, if we bring him into a company, he's going to talk about all about love. Not that way. But what I mean by that is she said, look, it's important for you to really care about your co workers or you call it love or whatever, but care. But I want you to love the mission. I want you to love this company. I want you to love coming to work. This is about love. And so whatever you, however you want to frame it, it is very important that when you're coming into work that you care honestly about our customers, about each other and about the mission. So the way I'm saying this is, it is about love. And you know, I, I'm, you know, changing the words because my memory is not perfect on this. But the, but the essence of that and I, I never really thought about that. And from that point forward, it really got me down that journey and you realize it is really important. So however you do it, I mean, the key is appreciation. So I'll give some tip somebody can do. Get a card tonight or, you know, or piece of paper or whatever and write lessons. I think of somebody you really care for and write lessons I've learned by having you in my life. What I've learned. So it's beyond. Thank you for, you know, just being great and all that stuff. Things I've actually learned. Because what I think in life is we all want to know that we make a difference. And when you give somebody a note that says you not only make a difference, but here's proof of all the things I've learned from you, it changes. I remember I gave that card to my grandfather and when I did, I'll never forget that moment. I'll never forget that moment. Because he's a, he's Italian. He passed away many, many years ago. But my mom had to, you know, kind of translate a little bit. Although he could read in English and stuff like that. But I'll just never forget that. So, yeah, things we learn from others.

That's so beautiful. I'm gonna go and get a couple of cards today. I'm literally about to head to the shops after this. And I'm lucky that my grandmother and my grandfather, one set, are still alive and they're in Ireland, and so I might just write that out and post it off today and send it to them.

That's great. That's great. I want to hear how it goes.

Yeah, yeah. I'll take a little photo and send it to you. But I just want to say today's been amazing. I'm deeply grateful that we had an opportunity and to have this conversation, and I hope that many people that are listening take the opportunity to connect them with your amazing work, and I want to wish you nothing but the best. Stephen, thank you.

And thank you so much for having me. And also all your questions and stuff. It's been. It's been completely enjoyable. And. And all the stuff also that you shared, too. I really appreciate that as well.

Nah, absolutely loved it. And you stay in touch. Anything I can ever do to support you in your mission, just be sure to keep me in mind.

I will. And you do the same.

Thank you. Thanks for tuning in to lead on purpose. If you find this episode valuable, please share it with one person that you think might benefit from it. And if you're serious about leveling up, please make sure you're subscribed to the show and continue to lead your life on purpose.