The Real Reason Your Brand Isn’t Growing with Mark Lester

I'd like to ship you a free copy of my book, Habits of High Performers. If you come and join the 2026 goal setting workshop, I will ship you one of these today. The link is in the notes. Please come and join me to set up the very best 2026 you could imagine. If you've set up goals in the past or New Year's resolutions and they haven't substantiated, I'm here to help you across all the key pillars of your life nail your goals. I'll see you there. Welcome to the Lead On Purpose podcast. I'm James Laughlin, former seven time world champion and now coach to entrepreneurs, CEOs, professional athletes all over the world. This show is for people who refuse to settle, people who are driven, people who want to grow, who know that there's so much more to learn and want to learn from the world's best. Each week I bring you insights from a special guest who's at the top of their game with whether they're in Formula one, whether they're a billionaire, whether they've started a company from scratch and take it to the top. I bring them to you so that you can rewire your mindset, take action and lead a life of purpose. Let's get started. Today's special guest is none other than Mark Laster. You're going to love this one. Enjoy the show. Mark, a huge welcome to the Lead On Purpose podcast.

Thanks so much for having me, James. I'm delighted to be here.

Well, my happiness level has just increased a little bit because you're here and we're going to talk about happiness. But let's just to get the ball rolling, let's start with the opposite of that. You know, you describe the world being in an unhappiness crisis. How do you see that shaping, you know, the future of branding and leadership?

Well, I think it's shaping everything right now, you know, and, you know, perhaps your listeners kind of, you know, I've been feeling this, that there, there is this sort of very legitimate and happiness crisis. And it's not just a negative news cycle. It's not just a perceptual crisis. You know, the, the world leading tracking of happiness is Gallup. And what they've been seeing is over the last 20 years, this really steady increase in unhappiness. And there's a really fascinating guy called John Clifton, who's CEO of that organization and he's so worried about what he's seen in that data, he went and wrote a book about it called Blind spot about how we're not paying enough attention to this unhappiness crisis. And I think in the last three years that's probably changed a bit where we are paying a bit more attention to it because everyone's feeling it, right? And we're all talking about these sort of quite tactical manifestations of it. So anxiety crisis or.

You know, racial hate, you know, you know, but actually all these are manifestations of a larger thing which people are feeling unhappy, you know, and they're both, they're sort of symptoms and causes of a single, you know, big issue that we, I think we sort of just got to get our heads around a bit. And I think that has. So there's a whole massive conversation about that which is, you know, in some ways beyond my remit and expertise. I'm a simple marketing guy. But I think what, what's happened within the economy and you know, the world of consumer choice is people are much more explicitly looking for things that they think will deliver happiness to them. And we're seeing this in, you know, almost every market that exists on earth. You know, like you could look at tourism and suddenly everyone in tourism is rebranding to say, you know, we're not just a sunny beach, but we're a place that can fundamentally improve your emotional well being and you'll leave here with a deeper sense of calm. Or know, the National Trust in England, which looks after, you know, all the old buildings and stately homes is like, we're a place where you can find your peace of mind, you know, interesting. But you know, you could, you know, that's tourism. But again, you know, you could look at packaged goods, you could look wherever. And so it's created for us the largest consumer choice driver today. It's, it's sort of revolutionizing almost every category. And actually what's happening is it's often the sort of top end of that category. It's creating the things that people are really willing to pay more for. And they say, oh, you know, I'm not sure about the choice between brand A and brand B, but if brand B some way, I feel like it's going to hit my emotional well being. Well, I'm willing to pay 2x3x, you know, more and more. And so, yeah, we've been really fascinated by those shifts going through.

And decided to launch a business.

Looking at investigating.

How to be part of what's happening.

I think it's really fascinating and it's interesting. For years we've all been trained Zig Ziglar Tony Robbins, Brian Tracy on goal setting and goals. You know, smart goals, you know, setting big goals, the Bhags, you know, from good to great. Jim Collins. But there's this piece called Goal Setting Theory, and it's been uncovered recently. It was done back in the 60s and 70s, but a friend of mine, Caroline, she published a book called Big Goals, and she founded it on this goal setting theory that's been kind of just uncovered. And what it is is this. The people who achieve the best the longest and feel the best about their lives have good relationships. Before they go and set a goal, they work on their state of happiness and their state of flow. Because if they're operating from a place of happiness and flow, they tend to achieve better goals, better relationships, better wealth. And this is, like, so deeply researched, it's not even funny. So I feel like you're really starting to be on the front end of something that most people aren't even thinking about. And she uncovered this maybe several years ago, but marketers are not thinking the way you're thinking. Why is that?

Yeah, it's so funny because if you go all the way back, historically marketing has thought about this, right? Like, in some ways, happiness is the oldest idea in marketing, right? Like, you know, you go back to Coca Cola. Like, the brands that really built.

You know, branding as we know today were sort of happy brands. And I think one of the flaws sometimes in marketing and advertising is there is such an obsession with the newest trend or technology that can sometimes take us away from fundamentals. And our argument is that a commitment to generating consumer happiness, it's not a message. It's not about putting smiley faces on cans or something. That is the fundamental discipline of branding. That's what good brands do. And there's a lot of different paths to. But if you lose your focus on that, you're losing your focus on the fundamentals of branding and marketing. And so in some ways, we're talking about something.

That is new and novel because of the unhappiness crisis. But in some ways, we're talking about something that is as old as time. And I always say, like, look in terms of happiness. Brandy, I don't know if there's been a better piece of marketing or, you know, product innovation. And the Happy Meal from McDonald's, right? You know, like, it's. They were. They're amazing at that stuff. You know, you can look all the way back. And I think in some ways we've got distracted. And I think particularly in the last sort of 10 years, in the marketing space.

I think we've misinterpreted what purpose means and, and I'm talking on the right podcast, I think. But I think what they came to, I think people meant purpose was we're going to sort of educate consumers or we're going to sort of change their lives in ways in which they don't necessarily agree with. And rather than just a fundamental thing of like how do we help them feel happy about their lives, how to make them feel better about their situations, how to create products and brands around them that reinforce like positive beliefs, positive behaviors and positive memories. And that's fundamentally what would, that's what people want to buy and that's what we're here to deliver. And if we do that, that's a net good to the world, you know, 100%. So yeah, I think it's been there. I think we've lost our focus and I think we're trying to get back in some ways to the fundamental focus whilst also understanding some of the language and priorities of our time which have changed a bit. You know, what do you mean by that?

What kind of language and priorities do you mean?

So, so this is a really silly thing that we're obsessed with, right? But we think hot girl walks are the, the smartest innovation in on TikTok, right? And so what's the hot girl walk for? In case any of your listeners, you know, don't know, but you know, effectively, it's this thing that really got popularized on TikTok of, you know, going out for a shortish walk is a defined amount of, you know, time and thinking positive thoughts about yourself. So it's an exercise in positive psychology, right? Like, you know, and all your, you know, your reference has changed like 10 rob, you know, you'd be proud of this sort of form of positive psychology. But the difference was it was packaged up in this way that.

Was really accessible to Gen Z and took off to just a crazy amount. It's like one of the most popular things on social media of the last like five years and, and a lot of people went and did it and I think it had a lot of benefits, you know, and you know, we've, we've talked to neuroscientists about the benefits of hot girl walks and I think it's a really, it's a silly in some ways, but also quite profound example of how for a generation struggling with anxiety and stress more than any other that's preceded it, they're sort of taking matters into their own hands and thinking about ways to bring simple forms of positive psychology. And that might be as simple as just rebranding a walk so that it becomes a more optimistic act for yourself.

You know, I love that and the word brand, actually, I'd love to, just because there's people listening now that talk about brand and personal brand and organization. What do you define as a brand? Like, in the simplest terms, if somebody's, like, wanting to improve their brand, develop their brand, what does that mean?

To me, a brand's just a reputation, you know, and it was a way of talking about the reputation historically, and it was a way of talking about the reputations of large organizations or products of like, about doing reputation scale. I think it's evolved, you know, because we talk about personal brands and stuff. But it's also, it's ultimately, what do people remember for, you know, what are the associations that first pop into someone's head when they think about that thing, that person, you know, that organization.

I love that.

So we think about happy brands, right? So. And again, what we don't mean is we're not saying stick a smiling logo or, or say the word happy five times. I don't think that's effective. But we're saying, well, you know, how do you. How do you create something that immediately makes someone feel better, not just about that thing, but about themselves too. Right. Like, we work a lot with Nike. Just do it has obviously been lionized and explained in so many ways, but just felt liberating, didn't it? You can just do it, you know, Know, and so we think about memories, behaviors and beliefs and, and all of those can be positive and make you happy. And one of, you know, a belief that you can just do it makes the world feel better. You know, it's a space you want to go live in, isn't it, and occupy, you know, and we've done that with a lot of the brands that we. That we've worked with. We've thought about how can we reinforce someone's most optimistic belief about this space and.

And, you know, and, and. And create sort of a happy mind space for them.

Amazing. Well, let's talk about that, because you've worked with, you know, Nike, Netflix, Olipop. So let's actually start with Olipop because it's really unique, and for listeners that are maybe outside of the US let's just maybe address what Olipop is and its growth and then love to get into, like, what you did with them.

Hey, James here. I wanted to take a quick moment to let you know about Something. Look, I get asked to deliver keynotes and workshops for teams and companies all over the world, from London to Antarctica, from America to Australasia, from armies to small businesses to large corporates, to sports teams. But I go in and deliver keynotes around the mindset of high performers, around the habits of high performers, about how we navigate change. If you would like me to come and speak to your team or speak at your conference or deliver a bespoke workshop, please get in touch with my team. Carolinejlochlan.com will be able to help. I'll also make sure that we put that in the show notes.

Yeah. So Olipops, we've been very fortunate to work with them very intensely over the last four years. They are a prebiotic soda that has become, they're sort of exclusively available in the US for now.

But they were recently valued at close to $2 billion and they've, they've really sort of reshaped. If you walk down now like this, the soda aisle in Walmart or you know, there's mainstream retailers in the States, there's now a new soda session which is, which is significant. And there's all these sort of other brands that have entered into the space that, that they created. And so they really sort of like reshaped the soda market around this sort of sort of healthy, you know, functional soda. And.

The work that we, you know, when we first met them, they were.

They were $50 million brand. You know, we're doing very well in the likes of Trader Joe's and Whole Foods and they're sort of health focused stores and they were called a sparkling tonic.

And, and we're a little bit more focused in flavors like ginger, lime or you know, just, just the type of things that like have a.

More of a health connotation, you know. Yeah. And.

But the founders really had this kind of like incredible vision that they, they, they weren't help, they weren't happy being just a sort of health brand. They really wanted this sort of mainstream success. And we worked very, very closely with the, with those founders about crafting what it meant for them to be a happiness brand. And that was really in the end about recrafting it as a soda and, and understanding what being a soda meant in America. Which soda in America is something very profound like you know, beer in the UK or coffee in Italy. It go, it runs really deep. You know, like there are regional sodas, it's like a very, very loved thing and it connects with people on a very deep level to some of their Most deep and fond memories of childhood. And so it's incredibly emotively powerful. Like in that framework I described, like the memory element of it, it's just so, so powerful. And we found that actually when you got that right, the description of it, people described a feeling of home, of sort of like safety, being back, being a sort of child again and being surrounded by loved ones and that they would sort of take a moment to themselves to have the drink to sort of slip into that feeling for a bit. You know, often incredible sometimes in the afternoon when maybe your willpower is running a little low and you just need to retreat from the, from the demands of the day. And so we went on a journey about taking that vision of the product, that vision of the feeling that we wanted to create that feeling at home. And you know, we remodeled the way it presented on the can, the sort of messaging around it and, and the way to create.

Brand marketing campaigns and a way to, to, to ultimately go on a journey into those, into those really big retailers.

It's incredible. And you took them from, was it 50 million to 2 billion?

Yeah, just the latest valuation is 1.85.

Amazing.

And obviously we, you know, we're a part of that journey to you know the, the, the, the founders leading the company are exceptionally talented folks. We're very fortunate to be, to be involved. But yeah, we've been, it's, you know, it's been a very, in intense, in a great way partnership. You know, we've been very deep in. And then yeah, just this sort of like meteoric curve really.

So yeah, been, been an awesome journey to, to, to be, to be involved in and I think at the heart of it was, you know, Ben Goodwin, the formulator and founder. Amazing, amazing liquid. But understanding what that liquid did for folks and, and this sort of associations and psychological model around it and just getting that spot on. I think that package is part of what created sort of real magic with the brands.

Yeah, it makes total sense. And before we take a look, maybe let's say at Netflix because I love Netflix. If someone's listening right now, they've got an existing brand or maybe they're starting new but they've got an existing brand and they really want to take things to the next level. They've maybe been stuck in a way of thinking about their reputation and they're not seeing growth that like they would, they could like to. So what are three things you would suggest they do to get started? Three low hanging fruits based on this model of trying to create that happiness.

Approach well, so I think the first thing is to take us. You always need to take a little step out of your category or adjacent to your category for a second. That's what we're always doing. And just trying to think about the broader psychological model of, you know, what you're servicing. And as that our model on happiness really focuses on, around this idea of.

Memories, behaviors and beliefs and just saying, like, what are the types of memories, positive memories we're associated with? Like with Olipop, we found out, you know, the, the soda sitting on grandma's porch after mowing the lawn was like, that was like the one that people had in their head. It's like, how do we capture that? That's what people describe when they think of root beer. How do you capture that and bottle it right? You know, you know, there might be a behavior like there's other brands, there's a, there's a fascinating company we're called Daily Pay, where you get paid every day as opposed to every two weeks. And for folks, you know, blue collar workers, that's a pretty transformative process. And we went deep in and looked actually about how people were really using their products. We actually just did an audit of their own data and research and found something that they hadn't really seen, which was the people checked the balance every day and it wasn't necessarily they took money out, they just checked the balance. And when we went and talked to folks about it, what they, what they said was, you know, I love the feeling that I work a hard day's work and then I see the results immediately. And it's almost like a financial fitness tracker, right. And that created this sort of daily optimism that your hard work was actually paying off, you know, which, when you work at a large company, you can lose sight of. And so that behavior like this is the behavior. And then we went and built everything around that and said, like, it's, you know, this, you're going to show hard work pays off every day, you know, and, and then the final thing is just think about what the most optimistic beliefs that you can reinforce in your space. You know, like the Nike example that I gave there. Like, you know, how do you sort of think about, like maybe things are going to be okay in some way or you're doing great or, and, and how does that link to what you do? How are you part of something like that? And I think if you just sort of take that step back just from thinking about the most technical elements of your usps or you're going to come back into that stuff, but just take a broader view for a second and understand fundamentally what. Where's the joy in this? You know, like. And sometimes that might be understanding where are the stresses that you're going to resolve as well. So, you know, that you can look at the other side of that, which is where the negative memories, where the negative behaviors and spirals, where are the, you know, negative beliefs that you're going to disassemble. But once you've got it, once you've got that psychological orientation, I think you can then come back into the detail in depth and say.

You know, this is the. This is what's important about the texture of our product. Or this is, you know, you know, there's those, those bits that are critical, but you come in through the most important psychological framing. But have you really understood where the joy is? You know, I love that.

It's interesting, you know, when we think about positive psychology, you know, for me, I always think it's just two things really, is what is positive and what is possible. And it's through this lens of possibilities. So when you're working with clients, are you exploring all the possibilities? Is that a key part of the function of what you do?

Yeah, for sure. And even just giving a sense of possibility.

And optimism is, Is critical. Like, again, like, there's lots of, you know, the world's best brands have created amazing brands through a sense of. Through a sense of optimism, possibility.

Like in the daily pay example I just gave you there, you know, about the idea of seeing pay every day. I mean, one of the broader points on that was belief in the American dream has just declined so much. You know, it's one of the sad things in American society now is that, you know, the American, the American dream is pretty battered right now in terms of just the belief things are going to get better. And, and so actually, if, if there's a way to reinvigorate that and say, hey, if actually we truly believe, if you work hard, it can. It can pay off, you know, and we're here to make that happen. So I think creating. I think everyone needs a bit of sense of optimism, you know, right now. And so I think if you can. We want to walk into our dealings with our clients and energize them, give them a sense of possibility, have a sense of optimism within our organization, because ultimately that's the way you'll get to framings and, and, and, you know, real convictions and beliefs that come. That emanate out to consumers and stuff as well. You know, as well that. That brands, brands should be there to bring a, you know, positivity to your life. That's what those people want to buy into. You know, I love it.

It's interesting. I've been for a number of years studying YouTube and people who grow on YouTube and like even someone in the UK based, you know, Diary of a CEO. Everyone kind of globally knows D CEO, credible podcast, amazing. But when you look at some of the thumbnails, it's like actually they're a little bit clickbaity. They're generally focused on the negative. And YouTube is literally, the algorithm is built for negativity. So it seems that our psyche, in a lot of ways, we see that there's a major pandemic, we see that there's a major killing or whatever, and we click on this thing. So what's the dichotomy happening there? Because I do believe that often we do follow these negativity loops. But do you feel our desire for hope and optimism is stronger than our desire to go down those negative loops?

Yeah, what I think is. Com. I think is complicated and there's clearly like a negativity addiction, isn't it? You know, like. And.

Which is part of why I think where. I mean, part of those things, of course, is that they're free. So you. I mean, it's certainly a finance, maybe financially, not emotionally, but like, yeah, that's a big cost. You see the attention grab a headline, don't you? And then you click on it. And what's interesting, I think, is when people come to really invest in their own money, they're investing much more thoughtfully and positive things. Right. Like, you don't see the super native spiraling thing being the thing that's flying off the shelves, do you? But there's an interesting dichotomy with all of that. And I do think we're in a bit of a negative spiral, you know, media spiral that we just can't seem to pull ourselves out of. And one of the things we reflect on as well, obviously is.

A focus on happiness, isn't necessarily a.

Rejection of unpleasant emotions, which. Which is related but different to what you're talking about. But, you know, for example, grief, you know, is an unpleasant emotion, but it's not, it's not a bad thing. You know, it's like, it's important. Like there's some really interesting work being done. We're working the video game space a lot right now. And you know, there's these games out there that help kids process grief and they're really beautiful, wonderful games as well.

That's amazing.

Yeah. And really interesting stuff happening there. And to us, that's happy advantage, you know, because, yeah, happiness is about, you know, processing and experiencing unpleasant emotions.

And they've just found a really amazing way to do it. So it's, there's a, there's a sort of healthy side of that, which is great. And then there's what you're describing, which is this sort of negative spiral of pessimism and cynicism that we seem to be on from a media standpoint. And I don't, I don't personally have any solution, you know, any solutions, but I do know it's creating this sort of counterforce, which is, God, I want to buy my way out into something more optimistic and enjoyable, you know.

I agree. And if we look at your company because it's grown significantly, I mean, you've helped these other companies grow massively, but also your own company in the last half a decade has just shot upwards. So I imagine happiness is at the, the center of what you guys try and focus on. How do you measure that in your own company? You know, how do you put your finger on the pulse and go, yep, no, we're heading the right happiness direction.

Yeah, no, it's a great question. And we, so we think a lot, definitely, about. We want to create an organizational culture.

Grounded in happiness. And I think probably at this point it's a good point to put like a little bit of a definition around happiness, which is different to joy and pleasure. Like, it's not just a temporary emotion. Right. It's a, it's a mix of emotional and cognitive. It's. It's that more reflective thing where you ask, you know, on a scale of 1 to 10, if you look at your life or your work right now and think about if you're in a good place, where would you rank 1 to 10? You know, so it's got that sort of deeper range of factors because as an organization, you know, as, you know, like, work is tough and, you know, sometimes, you know, you need to have difficult conversations or you need to get to different places. It's not about everything being pleasurable or joyful 100% of the time, but it's about creating a deep sense of happiness. And the way we think about that as an organization most fundamentally is trying to create high trust relationships with employees.

Like, there's, there's a lot, I think, about modern work culture in, where trust has just declined more and more. And then companies are actually.

Their Solutions are making the problem worse to me, which is they're trying to implement more programs, you know, trying to fix it with technology. And sometimes, actually the thing is just looking at who's doing a good job, who's fitting into a culture well and who's rewarding them. And now, obviously, we're at a very different scale of an organization to Nike or png. They've got to think much more systematically than us. But we wanted to create a space for really great thinkers to do really great thinking. And actually that's about creating a really high trust environment, you know, where people can kind of bring their skills, where we reduce meeting count enormously and have just very intentional meetings where we don't actually give people tons of.

Guidance always of like, this is exactly how we want you to run your day. This is just the outcome we want you to get to. And let's come together and then we've got folks who solve things in very, very different ways. And I think the thing with the high trust stuff is you've just got to really have the right people. You know, that's what our business is based on. Which sometimes means you've got to make tough decisions about whether if someone's right for your organization or not. But if you can get the right people, if you can get. We all know nothing is more responsible for a lack of happiness in the workplace than too many meetings and busters. You know, if you get those two things right, if you can reduce the meetings and you can not be an asshole as a boss.

Yeah.

Then you can go a long way to creating a culture in which people thrive. They're motivated to do the best work.

You know, I'm with you on that. I think Stephen Covey had the book the Speed of Trust, and he says the, you know, the. A company operates at the speed of trust, and if there's low trust, well, you're going to have pretty low growth or no growth. But when there's high trust and things flow pretty smoothly.

Totally. And it does take time. It, you know, it takes time to create trust in a team, doesn't it? You know, like, we 100%, we just definitely have realistic goals as well when we bring new folks in, like the best relationships for us got folks that I've been working with for seven, eight years now, you know, so it's like that's. We work really well together at this point, you know, family.

Right.

So it's, you know, you just want to bring folks in, in a thoughtful way and, and create, really get to know working styles and stuff. And that's just, in some ways, there aren't shortcuts to that. I think, you know, you just gotta. You've got to invest in it, get to know the person. There's no cheat sheet, I think, you know, I agree.

It's interesting as you're talking about creating a space for thinkers to really think well. George Russell. So for those that or in the formula one, George Russell comes to mind. So I was chatting with Alex Casanovas, who's his coach, and I said, look, Georgie boy's been doing pretty well. This was a couple of years ago. We're chatting, doing pretty well. He's going up the rankings. What do you measure? What are the two things you measure to ensure that his performance is continually improving or at least sustaining? He said, james, there's only two things that we really focus on. What are they? So he says, james, number one, happiness. And number two is sleep. It makes sense. But number one was happiness. And I says, what? What do you mean? Like, you should be focused on metrics and time, finishing times and G force and like. No, he says, no, it's happiness. He says, because when George is happy, he performs well. When George is happy, we all enjoy being around George. When George is happy, the team elevates and so they really focus on that. So for you as a leader of your company, this idea of thinking that's how we measure performance, the more creative your thinkers are and the way they problem solve, the better things might run. So how do you create a space for them to be happy people so that they can really think and elevate their creativity?

Yeah, well, there's a few big decisions that we've made around, like even the space that we're in. So, you know, one where we're, we're headquartered out of Amsterdam. We have satellites in, in London and New York. But think Amsterdam was a happiness decision. You know, like, there's a lot of unique benefits, you know, to this place. We've created an office space which is really designed around principles of what would be the world's best workshop space. You know.

So it looks, when you go around it, like almost like the type of space that you rent for workshops. Like, there's not a lot of fixed desks, you know.

And people use it like that. Like people might come in for three hours and then decide they want to go back. And we don't really set any parameters around that. We're just sort of, again, it's a sort of high trust environment. We're Sort of like, look, if you, if writing this bit, like you just want to shut all the noise off and go into, you know, the hole in your bedroom and just get this done. That's great for you. And then, you know, there's just certain bits where I hate this, this one, like, just make sure we're all in the room and we can really put stuff up on the, you know, put stuff up on the wall. We want those sort of like in person moments, but just creating that sort of flexibility and not really setting too many, too many rules about it. I totally agree with the George Russell examples. Like if, if people are feeling happy, confident, you'll get, you'll get the best out of them. And then you just got to be really clear on what good is. You know, like, it's just, it's just met with obviously they've as an F1 drive. You don't have to think about that because, you know, everyone knows if you place 1, 2, 3, 4, you know, so you just got to create the same level of clarity in your organization. Yeah. In which the results might be less clear. But like, just, you know, I hope I'm really clear on what I think great thinking looks like for us, you know, and, and just very clearly communicate to the team, I think we're there or I think we're not. You know, I think we've got something great and breakthrough clients, or I think we haven't and then let's. So let's go again. Or, or let's not. But. So I think it's those two things. It's the communication of high performance standards. But for them, for us, again, we're working with quite elite people. You know, they're folks that are very motivated. They are great thinkers. So you're just like, well, how do you just take problems away? How do you reduce their meeting counts? How do you stop imposing stupid stuff on them that they don't want to do and you know, and just create like a comfortable environment for them.

You know, simple things done well. Right.

It really is like that's what, that's kind of what I believe in. Fundamentally within organization, again, we're at a scale where we can just think about human touch. I think if you're at Nike, you got to think about it more systematically. But sometimes I think in, in embracing grand ideologies we have, we just overlook simple like just assessing. Is someone a good manager? Are they good at dealing with other people? Like, oh, we got feedback on that. You know, are they good at the job? And, and if we get those b. If we get those basics really right, you know, then, then we'll do awesome, you know, 100.

And when we think about, say, Netflix, because I think anyone that's listening to this or watching this right now arguably has a Netflix account or at least knows what Netflix is. So in what way were you able to support their mission?

So we actually. So they've got this sort of interesting innovation unit out of la, which we.

We partnered up with for.

For a fair bit. And part of what we were thinking about is how to innovate the, the viewing experience. And, you know, so one of the big experience, one of the big sort of roadblocks that they've got is it's actually just not that fun to pick what you want to watch.

I agree.

And, and I think for them, you know, that was an efficiency problem for a long time. Like, how do we. How do we make it quicker to pick what you want to watch? And then I think they sort of just hit a roadblock on that where they're like, there is actually just only so fast you could make this, you know, like, even with the world's best algorithms. It's just actually.

It'S a. It's kind of a big commitment, you know, picking a series or a movie and, and people take their time out for it. Like, you just can't get it below. Like, you know, it's often about 30 minutes. It's quite, it's quite a long time, you know.

Yeah, I can think it usually takes me between 10 to 15 minutes. I'm like, God, just pick something.

I'm awful. I honestly sometimes see 40 minutes begins and it's a lot. Which is why I love long series, because once I've got something that I don't have to go back into that process. But, but, but. So that was the problem that we. That we worked on with them. And it was quite a large sort of systematic innovation project, which was. I think the work we did with them was to sort of say, well, what if you thought about this differently? What about instead of trying to make it faster, you try to make it more enjoyable? And there was a whole series of bits of work that we did with them around one, aligning the organizations who were measuring that instead of just efficiency around ways of working. And then there was a series of sort of tactical innovations that we kind of came up with around how to make the experience more enjoyable, not just faster.

That's amazing. I think all of us can do that with our products, with our businesses. A friend of mine, Greg, he used to be CEO of Yum Brands. So like kfc, Pizza Hut, all the unhealthy stuff. And he wrote a marketing book called Red Marketing. And it was relevance, ease and distinctiveness. And that Ease piece was the piece I leaned into. I'm like, yeah, you know what? See, when things are difficult, I get so frustrated. If things don't just work, I get so frustrated. So I love that you're leaning into the fact that how can we make it more enjoyable? Because if it's easier and there's more ease to it, of course we're going to enjoy the process and therefore engage and stay on the platform.

Totally. And there's, I mean, certainly Yum Brands. It's not wrong, is it? You know, and I think the thing that we're, we're trying to add to that conversation as well is like there is, there's moments of delight you can put in. Like again, to go back to my Happy Meal example, you know, it's a silly thing, isn't it? You know, like the little box, you know, the little toy within it, it's somehow way greater than some of its parts. Like the delight that that is created. And you know, even like, you think about McDonald's and the way they thought about, you know, the, the bringing children's birthday parties in a big way to a fast food restaurant. It was quite revolutionary at the time. You know, this. It was not a space that you thought was good and they invested in, they made it amazing. You know, I became a bit, you know, big. It's those things where actually you can go beyond convenience, you know, and create things that are quite special. You can see it done really well. You see it really done. But like my contrast to McDonald's is Starbucks, which, you know, I think has been trying to do happiness but, but has had some missteps where they've, you know, they're trying to get their service to do positive affirmations on the cups and it's a bit forced and a bit awful, I think at times.

Yeah.

You know. Yeah, but you kind of get it. Like they're trying to create a retail experience that's more enjoyable. But there's people that have done that amazingly well and then there's people that have, you know, you know, there's missteps you can make on it for sure.

You know, what's the big difference between good and great there in terms of people getting it right versus people kind of having the missteps? Is it a mindset thing?

I don't know, I think it's execution, I think, you know, like, and we've, this is where although we have our models and frameworks, we're still like one. We're like, there's no such thing as a happiness guru. No one has all the answers. People get this stuff wrong. And the best thing to do is to go on proper development processes and figure out. Because the idea that there's some kind of all seeing, all knowing equation that gets you to success on this, I just don't think is correct. There's still that sort of human obsession with execution and there's very subtle human factors that delineate between something being amazing and awful. Like you could look at innocent smoothies and awesome brands in the UK for a long period of time. And, and they just, the branding and the language was sort of very positive affirmation. You can compare that to the Starbucks example and you're like, what's the difference? And you're like, well, one was good and one was bad. Yeah, you know, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's a tough thing to explain, explain at a strategic level, but I think that differences are really like profound. I mean, like Chipotle at its beginning got so much right because the caliber of the food was better. And then they moved the kitchen out front. And I remember walking into Chipotle's when they launched and you could see the people that worked there were very proud to work there. And because they weren't just service, they were, they were cooks and they were proud of the food that they were serving. And. But there was a whole series of little things that created that belief that they were proud to show you their cooking process, you know, and the details of that execution and the fact that everyone at that time really did see Chipotle as a very material upgrade in the caliber of.

Fast food delivery added up to that feeling you got when you walked in where you're like, this is a happy place. I can see that these workers are happy to be here and it makes me want to eat here more. And so, you know, I think execution, we're strategically driven by consultancy, but execution is so important and sometimes you just got to go through, try out different things and have a good cynical review to be like, will this really stack up? Will this work.

And make sure you truly get it right.

Honestly, that's such good advice. And Mark, do you work with just the elite corporates or do you have different structures for large and medium small businesses?

Yeah, so we definitely work with A lot of scale ups, so less like, you know, very beginning of their journey, startups but company founder driven companies.

That are trying to make the next, that next leap into the, into the mainstream and that kind of growth stage. Sorry, what was that?

They're at that growth stage rather than that kind of initial, kind of figuring it out stage.

Exactly right. And it's like, I think that's where our skill set lies is like that's sort of like that leap into the mainstream. You know, they've kind of, they've kind of got something interesting but they're, they're trying to figure out how to make that sort of, you know, similar to Olipop. Like how do you go from Whole Foods to Walmart? And, and I think there's a lot of companies have equivalents of that of you know, some type of, you know, decent niche into, you know, the heart of the heart of the mainstream. And so yeah, we've got a lot of, I think we've learned a lot about how to work with founders, you know, through the process, which is very different to working with executives.

Very different type of process. So we definitely have our kind of scale up division and our executive division, you know, always.

They'Re totally different modes of operation.

Yeah, that makes sense. And I guess, you know, for a lot of, for founders right now particularly, you know, they're looking at some challenges around funding and you know, globally there's been a lot of change. It's probably a very good time to be getting in touch with you and the team, just explore what brand looks like. But at the end of the day, perception shapes people's reality. So very important.

Yeah, for sure. And like, look, our argument is happiness is just the best, is the best consumer driver today if you really want to grow, you know, like there's just nothing and there's so many case studies that you can, that you can bring forward. But the brands that in some way convince people this is going to make you feel a bit better about yourself in your life are the ones that are doing 2x growth and then the ones that are ultimately able to justify, you know, higher, higher pricing. Like all the things that you really want from, from healthy brands. I mean Olipop is significantly more expensive than a Coke but people see the value in it because they're like, because they under, they understand the proposition really well, you know.

Yeah, perceived value things are a huge, huge component. Now you personally, if we go very tactical, what's one habit or practice that you personally use to stay creative in such a Fast moving industry.

Well, I think I probably like a lot of folks on your podcast, I'm probably a bit obsessive and a little anxious at times. Right. And, and that's, I think in the first half of your career that's enough, isn't it? That's sort of, you just run on fumes. And then, you know, I'm 41 now and you're sort of like, I don't, I think I need to change my mode of operation. So I actually, I actually just think switching off is his becomes the key because work becomes more and more of your life. And, and if you're just running on, on the whole time, that's what destroys your focus, narrows too much. And creativity is obviously all about, it's about a broad focus, about a wide range of things entering your brain and just having the, making sure that you're receptive. And the more that you're in an intense mode, the more you're in a narrow sort of laser beam focus. So you just got to find ways to switch off. And I think.

Everyone'S got their own answers to that. I find walking a dog, you know, we have a dog, you know.

And those things are great, you know, and actually it's not, it's not anything other than just actually stepping away from the problem and totally, totally changing your, totally changing your focus. That's the thing that really then I come back with energy. I come back with, you know, my brain naturally resets and I have new ideas without, without trying to, without forcing it.

You know, that's incredible. So it's so natural. I guess the thing that comes to mind for me is it's common sense, but it's not always common practice. And often when we're busy in our businesses, we get so passionate and it's 18 hour days. And I had a lady on recently and she's the world's leading scientist on mind wandering. And so I was like, I need to chat to this. What on earth is mind wandering? And so she spent her life dedicated to understanding what mind wandering does. And in fact it's one of the best things for being more creative. And I says, okay, how do I just mind wander? And it's super simple. I said, go for a walk, don't take your AirPods. You know, bring an animal with you, but don't bring a human. Like, don't talk, don't just go and enjoy nature and walk for miles and, or sit on a chair not interrupted listening to the sounds around you. Let your mind wander. And they said the studies that have proven when you do that, your creativity just sparks, comes alive.

Well, part of one sort of pub chat that we have a lot is the fact that we've had to rebrand things that used to just exist, you know. So like forest bathing is a great way to, to create a clear language around, you know, one of the things, you know, you've just described has enormous benefits. But I think a lot of those simple human basics have been coming out of our lives, you know, more and more and we've got to find ways to bring them back in. And actually one of the interesting things is we've got to market them, so we've got to brand them, we've got to create words for them or create excitement around them because, you know, the reason we need mindfulness is, you know, because we're on our phones. So we used to have mindfulness, didn't we? You know, and it used to naturally occur. It doesn't so much now. So we've got to, you know, create more intentionality around it. And so I think a lot of those things, you know, like, I'm a big sauna guy and. But it, it's forced mindfulness. It's just that, you know, it forces. Used to be quiet and, and calm for a bit. So I think all that stuff's really important. But there's simple human basics, but we're not getting enough of them, you know, and so we just. And particularly in this period that I'm in middle life where there's a lot of responsibilities, peak responsibilities, isn't it? So.

The days can always buy if you're not careful. And you just need to, you need to take a little moment where you can, I think, you know, 100% and.

You'Re at the most beautiful stage and you've built this amazing company, doing great things, but also you're a new parent and it's just like it's precious time and those days do fly by and your child does grow up quick. My little boy's about to turn nine and it felt like yesterday he was born. And so I think it's good that you are very aware that mindfulness and presence super important for you on a personal level.

Yeah, no, for sure. It is a beautiful time, isn't it? And it's. I thought having a kid would make you more stressed, but I think it, for me anyway, it's maybe less, you know, because again, I think it just gives you that.

It gives you the perspective, but it also just gives you more time where you're like, all right, I've just got to put my phone away. There's nothing I can do. You know, this little girl just needs me to sit and, you know, hold a toy above her to grab for an hour, you know, And I think that's good for you. I think that's very good for you. I think we need to do more.

Of that, you know, I'm with you. Yeah, they get that bit of balance. It's interesting you talked about mindfulness. We had Dr. Ellen Langer on the show, and I'll send you this episode. So she's known as the mother of mindfulness, and her and Martin Seligman were the godfathers and godmothers of mindfulness. They brought it to the Western world. So she's, I think, in her late 70s, early 80s, still teaching at Harvard, but she was able to simplify mindfulness in a beautiful way on the episode. So I'll send it through if you're interested.

For sure. And actually, so Seligman's, like, one of the biggest influences on us and the Langer experiment is in our version of our first. There's a version of our creds that we gave to Nike a few years ago that got us our first project. So they're definitely, like, big influences for us along the way as well.

Oh, that's cool. I'll send Eleanor a little text after this and tell her that. She'll love it.

Yeah, it's amazing. Amazing work. Revolutionary stuff, you know, so, yeah, she's a special human.

I've got a few quick fire questions for you if you're up for that.

For sure.

Okay. One brand that you're obsessed with right now.

Oh, God. Good question.

Oh, I am gonna. Do you know what? I really love Shake Shack and everything that they do. I think, you know, giving you a lot of fast food brands, but I just think that they. The way that they've been to the market, everything about them. I love that brand.

Beautiful. Love it. What's the most underrated marketing channel today?

Oh.

I'm going to be controversial and say tv, I think. I think. I think, wow, it's probably coming back around.

But I think some of the fundamentals of it have just been. There's so many times you have to make an argument that actually TV is going to make a big difference for you. You know, that's good to know.

That's really good. Biggest myth about branding.

Biggest myth about branding.

Oh, good. Sorry. This is a tough one. Hey.

I would. I would say. I don't know if It's a myth. But I think that the obsession with chasing the newest thing at all costs is marketing's biggest distraction today. I think trend hopping is probably marketing's biggest distraction right now.

Oh, I'm with you 100% sometimes. Very guilty. New platform comes up and it's like, okay, all the focus over there and God, yeah, I get caught. What's your favorite campaign you've ever worked on?

My favorite campaign I ever worked on. We. So we did.

We did the rebranding for Shopify a long time ago. Wow. And great platform like Gray. Great company. And the thing that we really learned in that was that the people that sell on Shopify are.

They're the folks that used to be shopkeepers, you know, and they just want like that little sort of like space of independence and world that the can be their own. And it was all about fighting for independence, you know, and trying to preserve it in a. In a world that's sort of monopolizing. And that was. Yeah, we were really proud of that work.

Yeah. That's incredible. You should be. What's a book that every leader should read?

Well, I don't know about. Well, actually, let me give one for every leader. So Happy Advantage by Sean Acker is fantastic. It's a great summary of the space of positive psychology, including some of the folks that you reference. But it's very easy to access and it makes a very powerful argument why how happiness can be realized in this. In the space of business.

I'll have to get. It sounds brilliant. And what's the happiest moment in your career to date?

Oh, good question. You know, and a lot, you know, a lot along the way.

I tell you what it wasn't was getting a big promotion in a firm, in a prestigious firm. And that made me realize I wanted to go and create my own company. Because a traditional career path, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't for me. I think we. One just really lovely moment was so my. My co founder is my wife. We moved into this sort of permanent, beautiful office in. In Amsterdam. And just walking in, the two of us, and just having a moment after three years of craziness, of just working crazy hours and just having a little breath, the two of us and walking and being like, here's this thing that we brought into the world was just like a very simple but lovely little moment to just take a breath and say, we're doing all right, you know, that's bloody brilliant.

Yeah. You have a deep sense of gratitude for what you've created. That's amazing. What's the first thing you do every morning?

Take the dog for a walk? Actually, I get up, I walk down and I've got a great golden retriever called Boseman who goes crazy. He sleeps downstairs. He goes crazy every morning. You walk down. So it's a lovely way to wake your day up. And then before I've done anything, me and him, we go for an hour long walk. I live right on a park and on beautiful sunny days, it really is just like a lovely way to start your day.

I'm with you. We've got a golden retriever, Holly, and we've got a chocolate Labrador, Gabby, and they're delightful in the mornings.

Chocolate labs are great as well. It's a beautiful dog.

Yeah, we love her. And what's the biggest risk you've ever taken.

Launching a company, a brand marketing company just coming out of the pandemic, I think, you know.

I think that felt like a big, a big risk at the time.

So. But you know, I, we, I realized careers are really about risk management, aren't they? You know, like you can be. Competency is critical, but you can be very competent and not get as far as you want because at some stage you've got to look at what's your, what's your risk strategy, like how much you're willing to put on the line and there's no avoiding that. And I think it was reflect part, you know, part of us launching was me reflecting that and thinking, I've never taken a risk in my career. I've just, I've worked at the big firms, I've done what I'm supposed to do and I've done all right. But maybe it's time to really have a, have a runner and, and stick my neck out.

Well, thank God you did. And before I ask the last question mark, I just want to say a huge thanks. This has been amazing. So where can people find you? What's the best way for them to connect with you and connect with the company and we'll put it all in the show notes.

Yeah, great. So our website's squinconsulting.com. you can find us easily on, on LinkedIn as well. But yeah, feel free to hit me up on LinkedIn or we've got a, we've got an outreach email on our website as well.

Awesome. I'll be sure to put that all in there and all the things that you recommended in the books and stuff. We'll put links to it all in there now, Mark, I want to ask you one final question, and I want you to pretend for a moment that you and I are going to travel way into the future, many, many years into the future. And you're highly aware that it's your last day on Earth and someone very young comes in to the room, and you love this young person. They're very dear in your life. And they say, mark, how do I go about leading my life on purpose? What would you say to them?

My biggest thing would be just think about every day intentionally, you know, like, there's nothing more important than this day ever. Like, just try and be a bit more present. Like, I certainly know I tie myself up in knots thinking about future scenarios, you know, all the time. And. And actually, sometimes the best thing you can do is just think about that day, you know, and enjoy it and think about how to show up well for whatever's going on that day, you know, which I know is very simple advice, but I think that's. That's a big part of our mojo now is so getting back to basics and the simple things.

I think, you know, I think it's beautiful. It might be, as you say, simple advice, but it's just very sage advice. And often it's that stuff that our grandparents might have told us that we forget when we're busy being busy. So I just. I'm really glad you shared that.

Yeah. Awesome.

Now take good care. Keep growing that company. Keep impacting lives all over the world. And just a huge thanks again, Mark, for taking the time to share.

Thanks so much, James. It's been an absolute delight chatting with you.

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