Behind the Scenes with Nelson Mandela : From Apartheid to Reconciliation

I'd like to ship you a free.

Copy of my book Habits of High Performers. If you come and join the 2026.

Goal setting workshop, I will ship you.

One of these today. The link is in the notes. Please come and join me to set up the very best 2026 you could imagine. If you've set up goals in the past or New Year's resolutions and they haven't substantiated, I'm here to help you.

Across all the key pillars of your.

Life, nail your goals.

I'll see you there.

Growing up as a white person in South Africa during apartheid, the privilege served you. You just follow blindly. Nelson Mandela, we believe that he was a terrorist.

How on earth did you end up working with and for Nelson Mandela?

I was spectacularly ill equipped for the job. Some Afrikaner people, you know, like to call me a sellout because I worked for the so called enemy. He would say to me, you know, I prison. We taught people to respect one another even in the most difficult of situations. We are surrounded by politicians who suffer from the self serving political tunnel vision. Most of these wars are driven by men. Where are the women's voices in all of that? No one is beyond redemption. All the solutions that we are looking for in these conflict stricken areas, the solution in all of that for me is we need.

Welcome to Lead on Purpose. I'm James Laughlin, former seven time world champion and now international keynote speaker and high performance leadership trainer. Each week I bring you an inspiring leader or expert to help you lead your life and business on purpose. Thanks for helping us be a consistently number one ranked show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. I hope you enjoy today's show.

The Lead on Purpose podcast is made possible by our generous sponsor NZ Mortgages. You can check them out at NZMortgages Co NZ. If you've been listening to Lead on Purpose for any length of time, you'll know that I'm a massive fan of Nelson Mandela, former president of South Africa. And I've spent a long time studying him, reading about him, meeting his family members and look, an opportunity has come up recently and today you're about to step in and experience that opportunity with me. My partner's parents in South Africa said, hey, you should really interview Zelda Lagrange. And I said, please tell me more about Zelda Lagrange.

Well, she was the private secretary to.

Nelson Mandela for almost two decades. What an amazing human she is.

She, she's written books, she's traveled the.

World sharing messages about Nelson and how he Led. And so today, you're going to get to sit in and hear a conversation that Zelda and I had very recently. And we're releasing this on the week that we celebrate Mandela Day, very, very important day. And for those that are looking around the world and seeing injustice and seeing war, we need to remember what Mandela was about. And that was about forgiveness, connection, but also standing up for what we.

So for whatever it is you believe.

In, please continue to stand up and lead your life on purpose by doing that. But for now, let's listen to Zelda lagrange.

Zelda, a huge welcome to the Lead on Purpose podcast.

Thank you very much, James, and thank you very much for having me.

Oh, it's an absolute pleasure. I've been waiting for this for quite some time. I said to my team that we really need to have Zelda on the show because I've spent so much of my life, both in childhood and adulthood, really trying to understand Nelson Mandela, see what he did in his country, the amazing things he achieved. And I've been reading and researching, and when I seen that, hey, you're one of the world's top speakers on Nelson Mandela and what's going on in South Africa. I really want you on the show and I want to go deep on your personal experiences with Nelson and also how that shaped you and shaped your views of South Africa, of race, of apartheid. I'd love to really get into that. And I think at this time, right now, as we record, obviously this has been a very interesting time for the ANC in South Africa. This is the first time, I think, in 30 years that they will have to go into a coalition. And also when we look at things in Ukraine and Gaza, there's a lot of unrest. So I think this is really timely for us to have a conversation. You more than anyone I know, I've spent so much time in proximity with someone who was the father of forgiveness. He was someone who could look at both sides, someone who was willing to compromise, someone who was willing to work with anyone to try and move forward for equality and peace. So I want to start at the beginning. How on earth did you end up working with and for Nelson Mandela? Where did you grow up and what were the beliefs that you guys had? And how did it end up that you sat alongside Nelson?

So, James, yes, I grew up in apartheid South Africa. Very conservative community.

No connection to politics, no interest in my family to politics, a middle class existence. But growing up as a white person in South Africa during apartheid, the privilege served you. So you Know, my parents both had jobs, which on the other side, for the black majority, that was not the case. We had access to medical good, medical facilities. Black people did not. We had access to public good, public education. Black people did not have that. You know, so from the start, I mean, the fact that I was registered during birth, you know, that was something that immediately put me in a privileged position in South Africa. So if something or a system serves your privilege, then you don't ask questions. You just follow blindly. Remember, it was also. There was a lot of censorship. Everything on all levels of society.

Was censored by the apartheid regime. So when you went to church on Sundays, your religion was used in support of apartheid. So why would you ask questions if you did not consider.

The other side? So from a young age, you also get taught and you believe that you are of superior race. We all got brought up by black women in our homes, which clothed us and fed us. We all had nannies. They carried us on their backs. But regardless of your age, you know, you start learning that because you are white, you are the superior. You are the master in that relationship. So very little respect for fellow human beings, little respect for seniority, you know, and you get indoctrinated on all levels.

And you buy into the system. When Nelson Mandela was released in 1990 was really the first time I took note of him. You know, we all fear was a very big part of apartheid. We were brought up to fear everything. And anything that looks different, prays different, believes different, lives different than us. So, you know, we got to know of Nelson Mandela and we believed that he was a terrorist. Now he was released, and the Afrikaner community, the people responsible for apartheid, expected revenge. Despite all of that, I applied for a job in his office purely because of a logistical arrangement and because it was the job that was advertised. Also advertised the possibility of spending six months of the year in Cape Town. Now, our conversation before we went online, you've seen Cape Town. It is a beautiful part of our country. And even South Africans at a young age, you dream of ending up in Cape Town. And so those two simple things were the things that.

Attracted me to this job I wanted to apply for in President Mandela's office. Of course, it was not directly working for him. And then on the day of the interview.

I was at the right place at the right time when his secretary entered, the president. Secretary, and she wanted an assistant. So I was at the right place at the right time, as I said. And we were introduced. And after the interview concluded, they asked me Whether I would be interested in a job working for her. And that's really how my career started. I worked for the private secretary, and that's how my journey interjected with that of Nelson Mandela.

That's incredible. Thank you for sharing that. And within your own family circles or friendship circles, was there any kind of challenge or criticism about you going and working for this new president who was once considered a terrorist?

Absolutely. You know, it was frowned upon in those years for us to. To step over. Even to this day, you know, some Afrikaner people, you know, like to call me a sellout because I worked for the so called enemy. Although, I mean, it's 50 years later. Some people, as you know, have never moved on. But, you know, there was, There was a lot of. I lost a lot of friends when they saw that I was really invested in this job as well. And it was a simple thing. You know, my parents brought me up with, you know, to follow your conviction, to follow, you know, to. When you work, do everything, do your best, you know, be dedicated and loyal and committed in your job. And those are the things that I did during a very. And I was young as well. I was energetic and that worked for President Mandela. So, you know, a relationship started developing because of my commitment and my availability and my energy and so on. And. And, you know, that was very, very, very difficult for Afrikaner people specifically to accept. But as people grew fonder of President Mandela, that also changed. And people, you know, my experiences with President Mandela also changed other people's perspectives on life and on the world. So at the end of the day, you know, the things that. Or the things that I found very hurtful in the beginning was this ostracizing by my own community.

But, you know, a lot of people have come by and have changed in the process, and it has had an impact on my own community. The fact that I worked, for me has also had a great impact on people, just showing them that we can work together and we need to, you.

Know, now more than ever, what's happening globally. Like, we need to work together. I'd love to know what it felt like when you first met him, that first meeting when you guys connected. What was he like? How did he treat you?

It was a life changing experience, just that first meeting, because the person that I found in front of me was completely the opposite of, you know, what was propagated to us about him. You know, we expected. I expected him to be angry, I expected him to be resentful, and he was completely the opposite. And he spoke in my home language, in Afrikaans, of course. He studied Afrikaans in prison. It was the language of apartheid, the language of the oppressor. But he studied Afrikaans to negotiate with the Afrikaner or the apartheid regime. So when he spoke to me in Afrikaans, you know, it destroyed my defenses immediately and it opened me up to this journey of discovery. Wanting to know what are the principles? Because none of that. I mean, you know, we must remember Google didn't exist those days. You couldn't just Google what was Nelson Mandela all about? Or what were his principles. But that meeting and that first day opened up a journey of discovery for me. And I found then that the values and the morals and the principles that he stood for were things that I wanted to align to as a human being. Equality, democracy, dignity for all people. So it was a life changing experience, just that first moment.

I bet it was. That's incredible. And those morals and values, what were the ones that really stood out for you? That you thought like that really is the epitome of what President Mandela is about.

James. It's definitely. If I, if I do pick one thing, it is respect. Respect for people, irrespective of their ideology, their religion, their status.

Their education.

Wealth, all of those things he removed from the human being. When he connected with you, there was a kindness about him, but that utmost respect, non judgmental way of looking at a human being and inviting you to almost, in a way, expose your humanity and to be exactly who you are without, you know, accepting your complexity as a human being.

So that thing about respect is what stood out for me. You know, even in negotiations. When he negotiated for the Burundi peace process in Central Africa, you know, how he taught people to respect one another even in the most difficult of situations is definitely, I think, a lesson that we can all take a leaf of from him, especially in a time where we are so troubled now, you know, struggling with diversity and differences. He focused on what brings us apart as human beings rather than what divides us. And I think that was his strength as a leader and as a humanitarian.

Yeah, you can really see it in his speeches, in the books that have been written about him and that he's wrote himself. That's just a massive part of who he is. And for all these years prior to becoming his private secretary, you'd had this belief system around the opposite race. And that's for years and years it was entrenched. How long did it take before you started to actually go, no, this is all wrong, I can see it totally different. Did it happen in A day, a week, a month? Did it take many years?

James? Yes, it took. I think it took a couple of years. And first, let me issue a disclaimer. I don't think as human beings, we are all we are at any point in our life, completely changed. You know, a friend of mine adopted a little black boy. A white friend of mine adopted a little black boy. And she said to me one day that she battles racial bias every single day. And, you know, I was shocked at first, but it gave me a view on my own experiences as well. I continue to battle those things every day. So it's not as if there was a beginning, you know, a starting date and an ending date when I said I was completely changed. I battle with things still every single day. But we, you know, I think President Mandela taught us all to challenge these things within ourselves and to confront them and to keep trying. So in the beginning, I think.

When I met the President's private secretary in 1994, who was a black lady, I think the wiring of my brain was immediately.

Challenged when she walked into the room and she wore the most beautiful dress. And I thought to myself, and it's her office attire, business attire. And I thought to myself, well, this dress that this lady is wearing is more expensive than anything my mother owns. And then she speaks English, and her English, which is also not her first language, but her English is much better than mine. So in a very strange way, in that moment, I think my prejudice and my bias was challenged immediately.

And that was the first time. And then when I found myself in this environment and I realized, but I am the one that knows least about this office and about this environment and about this.

The political environment and the history of my own country. I know a very one sided history. When I came to terms with that, I realized how much growth I needed.

So I had the fortune or the privilege to have worked with people, incredible people within President Mandela's office that really took my hand and taught me and mentored me and showed me the way by introducing me to the history of the other side of the history of my own country. So it was a process that took a considerable amount of time. But once I realized the values and the principles that people fought for in my country were things that I could align with. Once I realized that, it was much easier and much faster, a faster process for me to discover really.

To challenge my bias and my prejudice. So it was a process, as I say that. It started obviously that first day when I met the secretary, and then throughout the following two Years, I would say it was a very intense process when I also had to go and have conversations with my religious leaders to ask them, how did you allow the Bible and the word of God to be manipulated in support of apartheid? So it was a very intense process, I would say, the first two years. But it's an ongoing process and it's still today. You know, I check myself constantly. I think I'm a master at second guessing myself, but, you know, always continuously just aligning my thinking and my thoughts with, you know, with that measured and measured way of thinking of President Mandelas.

It's incredible. I want to thank you for actually sharing it like that because I think a lot of us struggle to put the spotlight on our own biases and our own prejudices. I think we all like to think to a certain degree that we're all really great people with no biases. But actually we have all got them and they're very subconscious and they have kind of been, as you say, indoctrinated, like bred into us by the people that surrounded us. Whether that's school, at home, at our churches, whatever it might be. I just think it says a lot about you to say, hey, I'm still working on it. I'm still trying to get better. I'm still trying to figure it out. And honestly, I think we're all on that journey. And I'm sure that the listener listening right now can really resonate with your journey. And I imagine there would have been challenges. Go ahead. Sorry.

No, absolutely. I just want to say in closing to that question is I think President Mandela was not without bias and prejudice himself. A simple example is we had a bodyguard that worked with us for a few years and he had a very English name and an Afrikaans surname or a surname that's very common in Afrikaans. And throughout the bodyguards tenure with us, President Mandela kept speaking Afrikaans to him, assuming that he's Afrikaans. And every other day I would remind him, but this person is not Afrikaans speaking. He's English speaking, actually. So it's a very innocent way, but also to show you that we all have that. And you know, as a white person, I realize that I will battle my own prejudice and bias until the day I die. It's not something that you'll ever say. I'm completely converted because I worked for President Mandela. I can't claim to have completely changed. And I think President Mandela made it easy also for us to deal with those because of his kind and gentle and graceful way dealing with his own prejudice and bias.

Thank you for Sharing that. And was there any moments that you found quite challenging? Were there moments that were you were under the pump? That was a bit chaotic. How are those moments when you were working with President Mandela?

JAMES well, that was every day.

You know, when I published my memoir, Good Morning, Mr. Mandela, in 2014, the Sunday Times in England wrote a review and they said I was spectacularly ill equipped for the job. And that's the absolute truth. I really battled, you know, I didn't have the background, as I said, I didn't have a political know how I wasn't, you know, although I had a.

National diploma to be an executive secretary, this environment was very, very different to what you can be prepared for anywhere in life. And, you know, I was, especially after he retired in 1999, when he retired from public office, he could choose one person from the government office to remain working with him. And then I was the only private secretary that remained with him. And overnight, our infrastructure just disappeared. So, you know, our support structure was gone. And suddenly I'm thrown into this environment where I have to deal with the media, I have to deal with protocol, I have to deal with, you know, negotiations with foreign governments and, you know, President Mandela's foreign visits. I have to do logistics by myself, you know, of this person and trying to move Nelson Mandela across international airport, you know, and without the support, really of, you know, our foreign offices, which, I mean, it's not fair to say they weren't there. But, you know, I was very much left to deal with things on my own. So it was very difficult. The pressure from the international world, Nelson Mandela's stature didn't decrease the day after he retired. To the contrary, people just thought that he would now be more available to the world. So it was absolute chaos. And I call those the crazy years, because sometimes I really work 24 hours of the day because you also had the pressure from the outside world, and those were the days before emails. So you physically had to type a response to every person that contacted the office and you had to fax them and that sometimes, I mean, during the day, I had to attend to President Mandela and be present in his meetings and, you know, be, you know, be with him all the time, move with him, and overnight. Then I had to respond to all these thousands of people that wanted a piece of him. So it was really, it was a very, very difficult and stressful time to absorb the pressure and to shield him from that kind of pressure. So, you know, that was very challenging. I must be honest, I wasn't schooled for it, and I wasn't prepared for it, but it was a wonderful learning journey. And I still look back today and I hardly recognize, you know, the person that I was in those years because, I don't know, I was in crisis mode all the time. So it was a difficult environment to work in. And also trying to please people. You know, I had to accept that my job was not a popularity contest. And, you know, I had to do what he ultimately wanted his schedule to look like. He wanted his. What was physically possible of him and what he wanted to align himself with. And, you know, so you are the most unpopular person, having to say no to everyone. So that was a great. That was difficult for me because, you know, people, I'm just a messenger. And we all know the cliche around the messenger, messenger, don't shoot the messenger. But that's a role you played. And ultimately, I had to keep him. His interest was always top of my agenda.

I bet you're the ultimate gatekeeper, and I think that's important for any leader to have someone that's incredible, that can say no and can create boundaries. But the fact that he picked you out of everyone after he left office, I mean, it speaks volumes. So those years that he was in office and you were starting to understand how the world worked in his world, how do you feel you built that relationship with him to the point where he wanted you and trusted you to be his private secretary.

Moving on.

Well, it was definitely, as I said, James, it was my availability. I was very young, you know, 24 years, 25, 26 years of age, and, you know, the energy that you have at that age. So I was completely committed to the job. I also felt that because of my past and what I represented as an Afrikaner being, you know, having been responsible for apartheid, I wanted to commit to the job and really.

Make sure that he succeeds as a president. So I wanted to do, in whatever small way, contribute to that success.

And my availability to him 24 hours of the day, the fact that I was able to immediately attend to his needs. We shared a similar sense of urgency because of my age, because of my energy. You know, I didn't have any dependence where my peers in the office all had lives outside the office. But my job was my everything. And that commitment and loyalty are the things that really attracted him. And, you know, you get used to, especially when you're an elderly person, you get used to someone then who's always available and who always, you know, prioritizes your needs. So that strengthens the relationship. And there's a trust that starts building because he always knew that I had his best interest at heart.

There's many situations in which that is tested, and so that builds trust between people. And then the amount of time also that we spent following his retirement, because I was now the only person traveling with him and being around him every single day, and the amount of time that, that we spend together then creates a very different kind of relationship. So I think, you know, in the later years I considered him like a grandfather and he considered me an honorary granddaughter. And that was very special to me that, you know, that, you know, it wasn't forced and it wasn't in any way superficial. It was a very natural process because of, of that dependency.

Through time. That started through time, 100%.

And it's interesting, when I read about President Mandela, I think of someone who's very measured, someone who's a deep thinker, someone who's calm under pressure. Now, am I right in thinking that or were there examples where he wasn't.

That, look, he was not a one dimensional person. He could be very stubborn, but at the same time kind. He could be very strict but compassionate. So, you know, he had this ultimate control of his emotions. I think that is very important. And you know, sometimes I picture a kind of a cartoon where he is this calm figure and at the back, you know, I'm the one, you know, just killing all the fires. So, you know, I think by nature he was that measured and balanced person in everything that he did, very disciplined. And those are things that were taught to him at a very young age because of his tradition. Because of his tradition, because, you know, what his parents, the values his parents instilled in him. And those things started at a very young age. And then.

Before he went to prison, he wanted to be a boxer. So the discipline of that, practicing that sport, you know, just strengthened those things and that complete control. And then prison, you know.

He had a lot of time to think. And sometimes he would say to me, you know, I miss prison. And I would say to him, don't say that, you know, you shouldn't say things like that. And he would laugh at me and say, I missed time to think because it's something that we take for granted. You know, having the time to think how, because of this crazy world in which we live in this fast paced world, how many of us really take the time to think about our problems, to think about challenges, because, you know, we just keep going. But he had the time and he always made the time and even after his release and during his presidency, he always had time to contemplate.

And I think that discipline of the mind and the emotions.

Is something that's admirable and something that we may need in leaders and even with ourselves today.

100% agree with you. It's very interesting. I talk a lot about think time, and I really love think time. And almost every day there's 30 to 40 minutes of just time where I'm thinking and people are like, are you crazy? Were you losing your mind? I'm like, well, there's so much going on and so many dependents. We need time to think. So you talked about his discipline of thinking. What other disciplines did you see in him that were kind of regular, recurring patterns?

Hey, James, here. I wanted to take a quick moment to let you know about something. Look, I get asked to deliver keynotes and workshops for teams and companies all over the world, from London to Antarctica, from America to Australasia, from armies to small businesses to large corporates, to sports teams. But I go in and deliver keynotes around the mindset of high performers, around the habits of high performers, about how we navigate change. If you would like me to come and speak to your team or speak at your conference or deliver a bespoke workshop, please get in touch with my team. Carolinejlochlin.com will be able to help. I'll also make sure that we put that in the show notes.

Well, you know, he wasn't rigid in thinking, but he was very rigid.

In other things in life. Discipline with the schedule, you know, how he. How he lived a very healthy life, how, you know, he was very set on doing exercise every day, his eating habits. All of those things, you know, were very rigid because. Because that was part of the discipline of the person, you know, and then. And then, and then he was meticulous in small things, in order, bringing about order and everything in life. You know, sometimes I helped him to take his shoes off when he was sitting in his favorite chair or, you know, wherever we were traveling. And, you know, I would be. I would be. I would take the shoes off and just put them next to his chair. And then he would call me back and say, now I must come and correct the shoes, meaning that they should be, you know, neatly stacked. So, you know, that is a very simple example of just how the. How his brain works. In everything, there had to be order and measure and clarity. So it's not only in his political life, but also in his private life or his private time. That is something that Came through very, very clearly.

Yeah, I think when there's order as an individual, when you're leading others, there's more clarity around what we do.

When he got to the end of his presidency, did he share with you how he felt about what he was able to achieve in that time?

Look, I think overall he set out to stabilize South Africa and to avert a civil war to ensure that there was a smooth transition in South Africa. And he achieved that. And that was his main agenda, you know, allowing people to see the future.

He was able to create that vision with people in South Africa and to get the buy in of the population through symbolism and so on. So I think in that he succeeded completely. I think what worried him at the end of his presidency, you know, in those years, was that the AIDS pandemic was taking off and that he did not attend to.

Enough of that advocating for, you know.

In terms of behaviour and so on. And then education was a big worry to him, you know, the fact that we couldn't fast track education and service delivery of clinics and health services to people in rural areas. So during his presidency, I think in 1998, we started this project building schools and clinics, convincing business people across South Africa to privately build schools and clinics to fast track those services to people, especially in rural or specifically in rural areas in South Africa. And, you know, by the end, when we stopped, when he no longer could do this, you know, because of health reasons and age and so on, he ended up building over 100 schools and clinics. And through business, the intervention of business, of course. So the things that he couldn't do during his presidency, you know, he attended to.

During retirement. And I think at the end of his life, he looked back and I hope he. I think he was. He was satisfied with what he had achieved and what he was able to contribute at that stage of his life.

Yeah, he should be. It's quite phenomenal. And I often think about someone like Nelson Mandela and what he did for his nation, for the world. And it always leaves me wondering, what was it like to be in his family? Did he make time for family? Did he have enough family time? Did he ever say to you, I want more time with my family? You know, were there boundaries put in place that you had to enforce to make sure that he could get that? How did that all unfold and roll?

Look, when I met him in 1994, his family was very fractured.

You can imagine being released from prison after being absent from your family for 27 years or for 27 years. It's very, very difficult to repair relationships after being absent that long. And then when he was released, he had this burden of. And he didn't see it as a burden, but he saw it as a calling of negotiating a settlement in South Africa. So his attention was immediately diverted to politics again. So there was very little time for him really to mend the relationships and to build and to build that sense of family.

When he married Mrs. Grasser Marshall in 1998, a few years later, I would say in 2002, she was actually the one that intervened with the family and brought all these different parts together for them to spend, you know, important dates together, Christmas, New Year, birthdays and so on. Because, you know, people's lives have also, you know, it went on during his present time. People had their own lives and to try and bring that all together. And then you are dealing with three different families because he was married three times. So to bring all those different sides together was quite a challenging task. So, you know, people in his family had access to him at home all the time. And, you know, it was also because of his availability. He traveled a lot. He was hardly ever at home.

After his presidency. So he had very little family time. But at least Mrs. Marshall made sure that the important times, you know, the family times, Easter and so on, that they did spend all those days together.

It's incredible. Yeah, I imagine she would have been quite instrumental in the background. And I don't know, my take on Nelson is he's a fun, loving human as well, like to have a bit of fun and. And quite a bit of humor. Did you get to experience any of that?

Oh, yes, very much so. You know, because you could. You could also speak Afrikaans. It was also a kind of a secret weapon. So, you know, sometimes he would. He would, you know, comment. When we're in meetings, he would make a comment in Afrikaans to me, you know, because of always trying to lift the environment, you know, always trying to break. To break down tension and so on. So, you know, he had a very, very good sense of humor. And he always looked for humor in situations, as I say, to make people feel at ease and see the lighter side of life. And so he had these very standard things that he would say to people and whenever he met him, and that brought. That broke down their defenses as well, you know, being able to relax, because he also knew that because of who he was, he understood his power very well. And, you know, he knew that he had to use humor to make people feel at ease and open up to him. So it was always present. You know, a bit of humor was always present and as you say, fun. And maybe not fun, as you and I understand fun, but, you know, always seeing the lighter side in things in life. You know, in the most challenging situations, I would be, you know, for instance, I would. I would have a very different. Things would go wrong and logistics won't work out, and then we would be stranded somewhere or there would be a huge delay and I would get very worked up, and then you would calm me down and say, you know what? These things make life interesting. So, you know, always finding something to say to make one, you know, see things in a different perspective as well.

Yes.

Beautiful. What did you learn about forgiveness from Nelson Mandela?

I believe that for one to live by moral compass as he did, you have to live with compassion and empathy. And that is a very big part of forgiveness and being able to show a person empathy and compassion, not necessarily blindly forgiving them, but understanding where the person has erred. I think compassion, for me, was a very, very big part of who Nelson Mandela was understanding, as I said earlier, the complexity of a human being admitting that we are all human beings with vices and virtues and ultimately believing that no one is beyond redemption. Nelson Mandela wanted to destroy a system in South Africa without destroying people in the process. And I think for me, that was. That says everything about his forgiveness, his sense of being. Of realizing that holding onto resentment or not being able to forgive someone else is like drinking poison and hoping the enemy would die. That is something that he often said. So for me, forgiveness was a big part in. Also in showing or showing compassion. And empathy was a big part for me of. Of, you know, showing people that we can forgive. We don't necessarily have to accept the narrative and as I say, you know, agree with someone, but we are able to show empathy and compassion to people in any circumstances.

Such great insights and wisdom. Thank you. Now, Zelda, did you step foot on.

Robben island.

Many occasions? Many, many occasions, yes.

What was your first. Your very first trip, if you can remember back to that? How did you feel stepping on the Robben island and walking around and seeing the prison cells and the conditions? How did it make you feel about what Nelson and his fellow prisoners went through?

I must be honest with you, James. It made me angry. It made me very, very angry because I saw this incredible human being. And when I say human being, I say it with purpose, because he was not a saint. You know, he had vices and virtues like all of us, but this kindness in him, despite his past, I saw this human being and I got to know this human being. And then I went into his prison cell and, you know, he was a bit taller than me, and I'm 176, so he was, you know, a bit taller than me. But when he stretched out his hands and feet, he would touch both ends of the prison cell. How do you survive that? For 18 years? After 27 years in prison, for 18 years being locked up in that, at 4 o' clock in the afternoon until 5 o' clock tomorrow morning in that cold prison cell with just cement, concrete everywhere, without proper bedding, without proper warmth, how do you survive that? And it made me angry, really looking at that and realizing that. I wondered, how do you remain hopeful? How do you not give up in circumstances like that? And I realized that the only way to overcome that and the only way to remain hopeful was for him was to focus on his hopes and not his fears, and to focus on his colleagues in prison, to focus on what brought them together and not what drove them apart. So I think there's very important lessons in surviving something.

Environment like that for us as human beings to overcome challenges in the face of adversity. What do we do? How do we remain hopeful? So for me, it was at first, anger, until I was able to focus on these things and trying to unpuzzle, you know, how do you survive that? How do you remain hopeful?

Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, I found Robben Island a very emotional day because I obviously read about it and thought about it for a long time and finally went there with my partner Caroline, and wow, it was very difficult to walk around and witness and try and understand what it would have felt like. Very inhumane, just shocking, really, but really incredible on the other side of it, to see Nelson come out the other end with compassion, with forgiveness, with the desire to reunite everyone. And so I guess post presidency, he steps away from that. You and him are working together. He didn't stop. He kept growing and building. His legacy lives on forever. So what are some of the things that you were a part of that actually were established post presidency that still live on today, that still have his message resonating?

So the Nelson Mandela Foundation. I was one of the founding staff members of the Nelson Mandela Foundation. It is a. A center of memory where all Mr. Mandela's memorabilia.

Is home, but also a centre of dialogue where people, when difficult issues occur, you know, it's a safe space where people get together and.

Discuss and.

Contemplate issues. So that's the one thing the other Thing that I'm particularly proud of is the establishment of Mandela Day.

You know, during his 90th birthday.

We hosted a 40064 concert in Hyde park for his 90th birthday in support of the AIDS campaign. And during this birthday, he got many different birthday notes from celebrities and, you know, people all across the world. Celebrities and ordinary people, I must say. And one of these birthday notes, or the note, was from Bono, the U2C lead singer. And Bono wrote a beautiful note to say, thank you for your commitment to the world. I will work very hard to make your birthday, the 18th of July, a public holiday across the world and a day of service for people to pay tribute to you. And we looked at this note and we realized, but, you know, there's an idea in this. So we went to the United nations and asked him to declare 18 July International Nelson Mandela Day across the world, which they accepted. At the end. You know, they all voted for it. And it's now on calendars around the world where we ask people to do 67 minutes of good on his birthday, on the 18th of July. Of course, it's not a public holiday, and the intention was never to have a holiday, but really, you know, just to spend some time. He dedicated 67 years of his life.

As an active citizen trying to improve lives, the lives of other people. So the least we are asking is, in his honor, spend 67 minutes on that day, you know, doing any kind of goodwill. It doesn't have to be in a controlled way. It doesn't have to be with a big charity. It can be, you know, just making peace with your neighbor. But Mr. Mandela lived a life by which he realized that if need just touches one person's life every day, he could change the world. And that is the concept that we wanted to bring home to people, is if you just do one good deed every day, you can change your own environment.

It is within your power. You don't have to be a person of position or a politician or with great wealth. You can change your environment, but just by just, you know, paying forward this kind of goodwill. So I was very, very proud of the establishment of Mandela Day and that across the world today, people still observe that day. And I hope it will go from strength to strength, and that people will, especially in difficult times that we live in now, people will, on his birthday and just try, you know, the smallest kind of action towards creating a just and equal society around them.

Yeah, I hope they do, because we really do need it more now than ever. And Imagine if President Mandela was sitting with you and I right now and he could see what was unfolding in the world, you know, the Ukraine, Gaza and lots of other places. What advice do you think he might share with you and I to pass on to those leaders of those countries?

Look, all the solutions that we are looking for.

In these conflict stricken areas.

Or the solution in all of that for me is we need selfless leadership. I think people, we live in a time and an age where people, we are surrounded by politicians who suffer from the self, self serving political tunnel vision. Whilst Nelson Mandela's.

Life was one of selfless service to humanity. We need people who make decisions that's in the best interest of everyone. Not only in their best interest, they don't only serve their best interest. We need people who are willing to negotiate, people who are willing to compromise because, you know, none of these problems, we can go on with wars for years and years and years. But unless leaders emerge from this to say the only way forward for us is to negotiate and to find a way, a peaceful way. South Africa was on knife's edge.

Of civil war on many, many occasions. But through Nelson Mandela's leadership, he inspired ordinary people to also choose peace over conflict.

And you know, it's not only the leaders, we as ordinary people have to choose that continuously as well. As you mentioned earlier, or as we spoke earlier, South Africa has just been through an election, a watershed election in our history where the majority party, the ANC, Mr. Mandela's party, lost the majority in parliament or the outright majority. They still have a majority, but they won't be able to govern.

With the numbers they got. But ordinary South Africans made sure that we had a peaceful election because they are inspired by our history, you know, ordinary people choosing peace over conflict. Mr. Mandela knew that despite our challenges that we, or in certain circumstances and incidents in our history, he was faced with the choice, do we go to war with the apartheid regime when talks were suspended or do we go for the peaceful way of negotiations? And on many occasions he knew that if you chose war, it would have a far reaching, it would have far reaching consequences, not only for the losers, but for the winners too. And we know from history, throughout the world, you know, where there was war, where there was civil war, and both parties and both sides of the conflict still deal with the burden of the past today. If you look at the Second World War, for instance, you know, both the Germans and you know, the Jewish population, they still carry that burden today of the past. So we should learn from that, that you know, war is not the answer. Ordinary people can help force their leaders into peaceful negotiations. It's always up to democracy. It's always up to the will of the people. And people have incredible power, as we've seen with protest actions around the world, as they push for certain issues. And people have power and people are taking back that power. And politicians should know that.

They serve at the, they serve people and not the other way around. So I think, you know, we have all this incredible individual power. And Nelson Mandela taught that through his life. But by inspiring people, by inspiring people, you know, to forgive, to, you know, to talk peace.

By leading by example, it was easy for people in their ordinary lives also to follow that example. For instance, it was going to take one trigger happy person in South Africa to start the civil war during negotiations. But because of the leadership of a person like Nelson Mandela and FW De Klaat for that matter, because of the leadership examples we had, people did not do that. Ordinary people did not do that. So, you know, I think that's a solution for.

The world's problems, is that we go back and we connect as humanity, that we focus on.

Our common purpose. What is it that everyone wants on earth? They want prosperity, they want jobs, they want peace, you know, and focus on that because that's what everyone wants.

President Bill Clinton always said that. He says that scientists have found that we share 99% DNA. So whatever the difference is the color of our hair, our ethnicity, you know, our legion, all of that, it's 1% differences. But we focus on the 1%, rather on the 99% of similarities. So, you know, all these many leaders across the world, it's not only Nelson Mandela, there's many leaders that we can learn from. We cannot be in 2024 in all these world wars.

And continue to allow self serving politicians to dump us all in crisis after crisis. Most of these wars are driven by men. Where are the women's voices in all of that? We need to really change this society and by bringing about that kind of equality and representation where people's voices are heard across the world.

Absolutely agree with you 100%. I had this conversation very recently and I said, look, I've yet to find any wars in the last few hundred years that were started by female leaders. It's male leaders with big egos and power trips and aggression. And we do need more of a balance of empathy and compassion in our leadership. I really believe that. And the message that you have, Zelda, is just so powerful. I want the listener or the viewer now to know that Zelda actually speaks all around the world on stages, to large audiences, small audiences. So if you'd like Zelda to come and share the wisdom that she has and that she also got from Nelson Mandela, please visit her website. I'll put the link in the show notes where you can then connect with Zelda's team and see if she's available to come and speak at your conference. I would love to have you here in New Zealand and I'll get my team to connect with you actually to bring you across if you're available and keen to travel because your message is amazing. I could sit here all day and I know there will be a time when we do get to sit down for an entire day and do that. But Zelda, I just, I want to ask you one last question before we part ways. For now, I'd like you to imagine we're going to fast forward many, many years into the future and you're highly aware of that. It's your last day here on earth and a very young person that you love dearly comes into the room and they say, Zelda, how do I go about living my life on purpose? What would you say to them?

It's going to be a long conversation. I hope I have time.

Absolutely.

But I would encourage them. You know, I had this incredible life changing experience with Nelson Mandela because I was open also to experiencing new things. I was open, I opened myself up to an opportunity despite the optics. You know, at that point, you know, being white, being Afrikaner, it's impossible that I work for someone like Nelson Mandela. I mean, those things to me wasn't as important than just having the job. Incredible things can happen to you if you open up to opportunity. The exposure I have had through Nelson Mandela and through working in that environment, being able to learn so much about life, about the world, about seeing things differently, that is the opportunity that came about because I opened myself up to, to this experience. So don't be, first of all, don't be blinded by your immediate environment. Think, you know, we are so much better equipped because of smartphones. We are so much very equipped today, you know, to.

Fast track our experiences and to be more open to things. Don't allow artificial intelligence to control your world because, you know, the AI just strengthens your position and it creates an echo chamber and so on. And that's very much like what happened in the almost Stone Age with me during Nelson Mandela's or before Nelson Mandela's time during apartheid. You know, you just Your views get strengthened because all you read and see and so on strengthens your own point of view. So open yourself up to as much divergence as possible.

Then I would say, you know, one of the things I think Mr. Mandela taught me and one of the things I heard him say most often over the years was that it was easier for him to change others than it was to change himself. He realized in prison that unless he changed himself, unless he forgave first, unless he worked at his resentment first, he was not going to be able to unite the country. He was not going to be able to preach peace unless he had worked very hard on himself to change those things. So, yes, he was an angry man when he went to prison and during prison, but this realization came through.

Thinking about things, contemplating his problems, maybe meditation and so on. You know, approach life like that, that don't always think of what you can change in other people. Always think of, have I changed sufficiently? Because none of us have. And until I'm at that moment that you described within my last day on earth, I hope that this young person can still teach me something. So, you know, be self aware. You know, I think that is something that comes, comes through, through Nelson Mandela's legacy is being so self aware of people's experiences with you. I always think of, you know, when I go to the store and I buy something that the person taking my money. Of course, you know, there's this, all these racial lines in South Africa. So most of the people still working, you know, in stores or most providing services are still black people because our society is not, you know, completely transformed yet. But in that moment, I realized that that experience that that person has on this particular time with me as a white person, that experience matters to that person. So, you know, really, really thinking of life that way and thinking of problems in a much deeper way and looking at it from all different sides, like Nelson Mandela did. I think, you know, that for us is a, is a very, is a very enriching way of looking at life and fulfilling way of leading our own lives. Because you feel like, you know, you feel like almost justified as a human being if you give someone the respect even when you feel they don't deserve it. So there's lots of things like that. As I said to you, I hope it's a long conversation that last day, but there's so much to learn from the legacy of Nelson Mandela. I would encourage this person, read, read, read. You know, don't only spend time on social media, read about the legacy, learn from the legacy of Nelson Mandela because we need new leaders like him. We can't all be Nelson Mandela's. We can't go through all of that experience. But he's left us with this incredible legacy of teaching us so many different ways and solutions to problems. So I think that will be what I leave them with or the person within at the end.

That is such powerful wisdom, Zelda. I absolutely love it. And I know that there's going to be a listener that really needed to hear what you had to say say with those last comments because really we do need leaders that lead from the heart and everything I believe rises and falls on leadership. So I just want to say a huge thank you for what you've done and what you continue to do in spreading the message and spreading the wisdom. And I really look forward to having you back on the show again soon.

Thank you very much, James. I really appreciate the opportunity. Yes. And I do hope we meet in New Zealand. I've been to your country a few times on speaking engagement and what I do through these speaking engagements is really humanize the person by using anecdotes of my experiences with Mr. Mandela and advocating for respect and integrity and living an authentic life like he did. So I really hope to meet you somewhere on the speaking circuit and thank you again for the opportunity.

Oh, it's an absolute pleasure. Thank you.

The Lead on Purpose podcast is made possible by our generous sponsor, NZ Mortgages. You can check them out at NZMortgages Co NZ.

Thanks for tuning in today and investing in your own personal leadership. Please hit that subscribe button and I'd love if you'd leave me a rating and review. I've got some amazing guests lined up for you in the coming weeks and leaders, it's that time to get out there and lead your life on purpose.