From Black Belt to Mind Coach: Renzie Hanham’s Red to Blue Framework Unpacked

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This week's guest is internationally renowned as a mental skills guru and is featured.

In the hall of Fame.

Please sit back and enjoy today's session.

With Renzi Hannam Ramsey. A huge welcome to the Lead on Purpose podcast.

Thank you.

I'm so glad to see it's often we don't get the connect with microphones between us.

No. Excuse me while I have a panic attack.

Right. For those that don't know, Renzi, you're up for a lot of humor today and it's going to be dry at times, I promise. Renzi, I look up to you. I see you as a mentor, a friend, coach, someone who guides me and asks me great questions and I just feel like there's so many more people that could do with your wisdom. So thanks for your time today.

Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity.

It'll be fun. So I've got things I want to talk about and share with the world that you have spent your lifetime committed to mental skills, helping others in a multitude of sport, building a family, going through navigating marriage, divorce, seeing prime ministers come and go. You've seen it all and I feel that we've all got so much to learn from that. But just to kind of rewind the clock a little bit, you know, we know Renzi as someone who's a master at martial arts, who's highly regarded globally. We know Renzi as a mental skills expert who helped put together Red to blue along with Dr. Kerry Evans. You know, Renzi is a good friend and human, but the one thing I know about Renzi that everyone needs to know is Ramsey's deeply uncomfortable talking about Renzi and his achievements. Humility is a massive cornerstone of who Renzi is. So, Renzi, are you open for the next hour or so to be open to talking about your achievements and what you've done?

I guess that's why I'm here to put myself through this particular test. So, yes, I'm so glad I'm available. Good.

We can have some fun then.

Where did it all begin for you in terms of your fascination with sport and the mind?

Well, I started judo when I was 14, and at that stage I was very young.

And my mother passed away when I was 12. She was very ill for a large part of her life, and I developed a technique. When I got into trouble at school, I would burst into tears and say, my mother died. And I used to get away with a whole lot of stuff because I had this strategy. And then I took up judo and a lot of my instructors were Dutchmen and they couldn't care less about all of that. So when you're flying through the year, you learned very quickly that you had to take responsibility for yourself. Which is why I probably initially got interested in sport for what it could teach us. And that made me change my strategies somewhat. So it was very useful long term, when I look back. Yeah.

And going back and losing your mom at such a young stage, emotionally, how did you navigate that? I know you'd say at times you would cry at school, but emotionally, how did you navigate and put that all in a box to move forward?

Well, I guess that's part of that was when I took up martial arts, judo. That helped me navigate things. Very much so. And that's one of the virtues of something like sport, is that it detaches you from whatever else is going on and allows you to put your attention on different things.

We need that, I feel, in this day and age more than ever, because we have this diluted focus, because we're looking at everything.

Yes. Yeah, I think. And I was very lucky. I had support. I lived with my grandmother for a while. It was lovely. I had aunties who looked after me, who used to wheel me around and take care of me. So I was very lucky that I had a Lot of support around me at the time. Often you don't appreciate that, but it's only when you look back later in life that you realize what a difference that would have made.

Massive. And you went quite far with martial arts, when you look at it. So, Renzi, if you don't mind me asking, you're nearing 80 years of age.

Next year I'm 80, yeah.

Incredible.

You're invited to the party, by the way.

Thank you. I will be there with bells on. Thanks for the invite. And by the way, for those listening, that's not an open invite for all of you, just in case. But Renzi, you're still at it. You still run a studio, a dojo?

Yes.

Here in Christchurch?

Yes.

You've got how many people participating in that?

To be honest, I don't know anymore. It's not something I worry too much about. My role as headed instructor for the whole of New Zealand for our particular styles. So we have clubs or dojos right throughout the country, the length and breadth. So. But the way I've organized things is each of the dojos are quite independent up to a point.

And I call what I. The way I run it, I call it a trust model. And I've got some very successful and skillful people running them. It's great.

Amazing. And what's the specific style of martial art?

It's called Sado Karate. When we started in 1965, we started a style called Kyokushin, which is very big. And then my teacher, Japanese gentleman, was sent to New York to establish the Kyokushin style. But eventually he, for one reason or another, founded his own system and we decided to follow him.

Incredible. And in terms of what that teaches you, so you get involved in martial arts, you start working your way up, but it's through hard work, discipline. You have to achieve certain things to move up.

Yes. You go through tests, for want of a better word. So.

In judo you had to accumulate points in competition. There's various ways of getting your black belt. I got mine when I was 18, so at the time I was the youngest in the country.

And then I went to the dark side, I took up karate, so. And put all my attention on that.

What made you want to. Want to switch?

Well, I was instructing at a club called Kanamjoo, which was the oldest club in Canterbury, at judo. And then a gentleman called Doug Holloway came, said he wanted to start up a karate club. There was no such thing in Christchurch at that time. So I said, well, why don't you do it here? So I got very interested in what he was doing and started training under him. So he started the club in 1965 and I. He stayed for about three years and then left to go to Wellington and I kind of took over.

Amazing. And this is not just a New Zealand thing for you. You've traveled the world with martial arts?

Yeah, I've traveled for a few places with it, Japan a couple of times. I used to go to New York quite regularly to train, which is where my teacher lives. Been to England, other places. Yeah, it's been a. I've been very privileged.

You've just got back from New York recently?

Yes, yeah. Visiting my teacher, who's now 84, so he's getting up there, catching up with old friends. It's been lovely. And we've just celebrated a couple of weeks ago the 50th anniversary of the Nelson Dojo, which was founded by someone who was my own grade, but he's since passed away, so it was kind of a bittersweet celebration.

And Renzi, tell me this when we look at kids nowadays. So I'm a dad of an eight year old currently and trying to navigate that. I'm a bit of a rookie, but trying to figure it out. And I think that discipline and adversity, resilience, I think of these things a lot when I'm parenting. How do I instill values?

Well, I think the martial arts can play a very important part because you get rewards regularly, because you go for gradings and you get symbols of your expertise, which is the color of your belt. And that happens on a regular basis initially, maybe every three or four months. Then as you progress, it becomes the time in between comes longer and longer and longer. So it teaches you several useful skills over a period of time. And of course one of the main things from my perspective is you form connections with other people that sustain you over difficult periods of your life, which we all have.

And that's interesting because I think when I first started taekwondo back in Ireland, I was probably eight and for me it was about being strong and being Bruce Lee and all these things come to mind. But when you get past that and teenagehood and 20s, you start to realize it is a community.

Yes.

And it is about getting together afterwards and connecting for a coffee and being there through the tough times.

Yes.

Have you found that community helpful in your own life?

Oh, hugely, yeah. And it's. We all help each other so it's not a one way street. Even though sometimes you might be the senior in terms of degrade, it goes Both ways. And it's terribly important for the sustainability of a club or a dojo that this occurs because that's what makes it last and gives it meaning and significance.

Yeah. It's a central place for everyone to connect, bring all the family members through.

Yep, yep. And there you get to experience some.

Lovely moments in terms of this idea of black belt. So there's an idea in leadership that, you know, I become a CEO, so I've arrived, finished, done. So I imagine when you get to black belt, there's a sense of, wow, I've achieved that. But what's next from there?

Well, it's a beginning. In karate and in Jeddah you have downgrades. So you get to black belt, which is showdown, first down and then second, third, fourth, fifth, etc. So in our system, the testing is quite different at different levels. So you have those kinds of graduated experiences, which.

Can'T say too much because a lot of it's. We don't tell people what they're going to experience. The first and second degree black belt, they know exactly what they're going to get, but beyond that, we don't tell them.

Is this a mental and a physical component?

Yeah, and a community component with some of them. So we try and graduate. It's different for every system of karate too. They all do it quite differently. So that's just the system we've developed and we've developed it separately from what they do necessarily in America. Right.

And you think that having that idea of them not really fully knowing what it takes to go from fifth to sixth, Daniel, Is that about intrigue? Is that about just keeping it in house?

There's that aspect of it too. And I thought about developing trust.

Right.

So they learn to trust the process.

And so far it seems to be working.

I really like that because I think nowadays almost we want to know all the details, all the facts before we sign up.

Yep. So they don't. They know, as I said, the first couple of gradings for black belt, they know pretty well exactly what they're going to get. But beyond that, no, I'd love to.

Talk about this mental side of the game. So I want to talk about the game. It's the game of life, it's the game of sport, whatever we want to talk, because I think mental skills are all encompassing. So you have provided mental skills and support for some of our country's top athletes, some of the world's top athletes, Olympians, rugby stars, teams, etc. And they rave about you. Ramsey.

Thank you. I'VE often said you teach what you most need to know yourself. So it's a two way thing.

That's such a good piece of advice. I agree. Sometimes you only give it one step ahead and gifting it back. Well, I think you're many, many steps ahead and I see this from different components of people in sport and business. When they've worked with you, you really help transform the way they see the world and themselves. So mental skills, for someone that goes, what is mental skills? What are they? What does it mean?

Well, from my perspective, it's about establishing a framework which you can use successfully in developing whatever skills you want to. So that's why Dr. Evans and I developed the Red to Blue because it gives framework and it's a framework that's quite simplistic, superficially. Obviously it has many layers, but it's something that most people we've found can connect with. So the first part of it is what causes pressure? How do most people respond? So pressure is caused by expectation, either yours or other people. Scrutiny, people watching and judging you, labeling you and consequences. What happens if. So knowing which of those three impacts on you the most is very useful. And it can be all of them at certain stages. But just knowing when and how that happens and knowing how people tend to respond, some people become aggressive and angry, some people become passive and withdraw and some people shut down and want to escape. So knowing and all of these are very human responses. And that's from my perspective, the first thing is to say these are perfectly human responses. So they're not judging themselves, they accept that that's the way humans respond. And then how do we go beyond that?

And that to me, when you're sharing that, there's an acronym, there is that escape.

Yes.

Right. So if you want to, just for the listener, go through those six again.

Expectation causes pressure, scrutiny, people judging and watching you, and consequences. People tend to respond by becoming aggressive and angry. Nothing wrong with aggression. Some sports, it's essential. Some people become passive and withdraw. And you see this in team sports where they stop communicating and some people want to escape. They shut down.

Amazing. Thank you for coming back through that. I'm going to put this in the show notes as well. This, this acronym, I really, really like that. And Renzi. So people are in the world, whether it's in an arena, at work, at home, whatever it is they're experiencing, they're understanding the idea of this framework. How do they go from red to blue and what does red look like and what does blue feel and look like.

Hey, James, here. I wanted to take a quick moment to let you know about something. Look, I get asked to deliver keynotes and workshops for teams and companies all over the world, from London to Antarctica, from America to Australasia, from Australia armies to small businesses, to large corporates, to sports teams. But I go in and deliver keynotes around the mindset of high performers, around the habits of high performers, about how we navigate change. If you would like me to come and speak to your team or speak at your conference or deliver a bespoke workshop, please get in touch with my team. Carolinejlochlan.com will be able to help. I'll also make sure that we put that in the show notes.

Well, Blu, the other component that normally we get them to do is to work out what they can and can't control. Because when we're under pressure, our tendency is to put our focus and attention on all the stuff we can't control. Then we become a victim, which is never very useful. So often being able to define what we can and what we can't control and what we can influence becomes critical. Skill set. It's not enough to know what we can and can't control. We need to practice it, which is where repetition and all those sorts of things come in for any skill. So it's just part of an ongoing process.

And those things of understanding your controllables?

Yes.

So how do we go about defining what we can control?

Well, you get them to write down in a circle what they think they can control. So for instance, for sports people, one of the questions you often ask them or for businesses is, can you control the outcome? So often they'll say yes, and you say, but it hasn't happened. How can you control something that has yet to happen? So often for some people, that's a light bulb moment. So you can control the process that gives you the outcome. So just getting clarity around those things. Can you control other people? No, you can influence them. How do you influence them? By being very good at what you can control. And those criteria become quite significant in all aspects of life. Whether you're talking sport, business, as you well know, it's just establishing that criteria and then getting clarity around it.

An acronym I like for sports people and for business is ice being intense, having clarity and being effective, as opposed to hot, heated, overwhelmed, intense, which is what happens when we put our attention on all the stuff we can't control.

That's amazing. It's interesting. The idea of ice. I really like that. And I guess there's different modalities. And this is probably what people want to jump to right away. Show me a few tricks that I can implement. But actually it's important to get the structure.

Yes.

And understand how the brain and the.

Body works, which is why we've developed the red to blue model, because it does give you a structure that's very visible and helps immensely to people to navigate their way through those things.

And this red to blue model, for those that are not familiar with it, I'll put a link in the show notes, you can learn more about it. But essentially, you know, Formula one drivers, all black rugby players. Rugby players from all over the world, in fact, athletes and business folk, teachers, educators, governments, the lot. The Gurkhas even.

Yes. And it was developed primarily for a company that Dr. Evans and I were involved in called Gazing. Still involved. And it's based in London and that's their business is promoting this red, blue. And they've got, you know, work with businesses, the military, sports, education right across the board. So it has relevance, seems to have relevance regardless of the environment it's operating in.

And it's trans, the way that it's transformed through all these different decades. To me, it's relevant now every bit as much as it was when it was first developed.

We'd like to think so.

Timeless.

Yes.

Yeah, definitely.

And because it sounds quite simplistic, people gravitate towards it because.

There'S not a lot of buzzwords attached to it. It's very seemingly quite simplistic. Not that it is simplistic, but I think it's easy for people to connect with it. Yeah.

It gives people a shared common language that they can connect with. And it's not too complex.

And the main thing is it's not judgmental.

Do you think that's an issue with a lot of us humans, is that we judge others and ourselves?

Well, often one of my things is, and I need to learn this for myself, is the words I use generate the emotions that I feel. So in our thing, you get what's called an issue response, confusion. You get the issue, someone drops a ball or whatever, the response is where the emotion sits. So I've let the team down, all that sort of stuff. And people get so busy trying to deal with their emotions that the actual issue itself doesn't get attended to. So it's just being clear about what the issue is and being able to deal with that that allows us to move. Because I don't like the word change. The minute you mention the word change to people, they get very defensive, validate what they're trying to do. I like the word movement, which.

There's no emotional connection. No.

There's no emotion attached to it. And it makes it a lot easier to work with people.

I really like that. And even when you think about it from a business perspective, when a team leader comes in or a CEO and goes, guys, there's a massive change coming, everyone panics, right?

Of course they do. Yeah.

But if they go, hey, you know what, there's probably going to be a bit of movement.

Yeah. How are we going to get from A to B, et cetera, et cetera. And A to B is a process, so that's what we can control and that'll give us the outcome that we're after.

That's incredible. And Renzi, this red to blue, where have you most enjoyed over the years? Whether it's with an athlete or a team or an event, where have you most enjoyed using it?

I don't discriminate, though. I quite enjoy using it in whatever domain the joy is, if it's useful for people, you know, that's where the joy sits.

Again, it's a process. So the more connected you are to whatever the process is, the more. One of my favorite sayings is joy is the antidote to fear. If you're thoroughly connected to whatever it is that you're doing, there's no space for doubt or anxiety. Not that I don't mind doubt, because doubt actually can be a great learning because it encourages you to unravel things and find, discover things which can be really useful.

How do you balance the embracing doubt without getting to the point where you're frozen in fear of I've got no self confidence, or how do you balance that?

Well, as Zen master used to say, the greatest enlightenment often follows the greatest doubt. So it's just giving them the information that doubt can be really useful. Writing it down and creating pathways on a piece of paper can also be useful because then they can chart the movement, where they've come from, where they need to go, what they want to do, what are the steps to get them there. So it becomes a visual.

Thing, which I quite like, of course, given my other job.

Yeah, the graphics background. Yeah. Which you're phenomenal at.

Well, it's been very helpful. Yeah.

And I love when you bring it to life. That's when I first experienced red to blue with you. And when you've come in and worked with some of my clients on that, you bring it to life visually and in the brain from your Knowledge and your experience, how important is imagery and what we see?

I think it's very important because obviously it drives a heck of a lot of emotion. And just having something out in front of you is helpful because it gets it out of that internal. Because often that turns to scrambled eggs. And being able to put it on a piece of paper makes you feel that one, you have some control over, and two, that it's out there as opposed to just being all internal. So I find it a very useful process.

I think the one thing when I think of that as well is around focus. And you shared with me this. It was a quote. And that really sticks with me. Where your focus goes, your energy follows.

Yes. Where your attention goes, your energy follows. Yeah.

And for the listener, what does that mean? How can they apply that?

Well, if you're putting your attention on what you might define as negative things, and that's where you're focus will fixate. So you're not looking at solutions, you're just looking at what's going wrong, which often is perfectly human and normal. But if you get stuck in that place, it's not useful. So again, being able to define what the actual issue is can help move through that process. The other part about it is not judging yourself when you're going through that process. And the key word from my perspective here is acceptance. Acceptance doesn't mean you like it, Acceptance doesn't mean you don't do anything about it, but you accept it. Because what happens is when people try and push those feelings away, as you know, they just keep coming back and they get stronger and stronger because basically it's just the wee voice that needs to be heard.

And that's the idea of dealing, in fact, dealing in reality, facing it, accepting that it is what it is, and.

Learning.

What'S the opportunity here. Lao Tzu was a very famous Chinese philosopher, had a great saying, which is crisis, opportunity riding on a dangerous wind. So what's the opportunity? Because that changes the construction of it to something that's actually quite positive and useful as opposed to, oh, God, what's happening here? And we have those moments as well.

And that's a decision you're actively deciding to go, wtoh, what's the opportunity here? As opposed to, oh, crap. Yeah, game over.

But when you say oh, crap, that's perfectly understandable. It's just not getting stuck in that. Yeah.

So how do we become unstuck by.

Realizing, appreciating, and having clarity of, well, actually what's going on, what the dynamics are, and Knowing that it's not permanent, that it's up to us. We were in charge of that. What we can do around that, rather than being victims, we can create as opposed to react.

There's that responsiveness rather than reactivity.

Yes. Yeah. And using it so it becomes useful. So you're not denying it. You're not. You're accepting it, but you're using it because you realize it's opportunity. And it's easy for me to sit here or for us to sit here and say all these things and we get caught in a trap all the time, ourselves, every day. Part of being human. But accepting that is very helpful.

Yeah, I agree. That's interesting. Journaling has been a really important part for me to understand how I think and to deal with situations that are challenging. And in my journal about four years ago, after one of our walks together, I wrote down dapper D A, P, P E R. So I found that a very useful process when I was dealing with stress, uncertainty, worry, all of those things.

Well, you better tell them what it means.

Yes. So, number one, you're testing me here, Renzi. This is great. So the master is testing me. So detach. So first of all, detach from the stress, the worry, the heat. And you taught me a couple of ways to detach. Would you mind sharing the way that you use right now to detach?

Well, these days I often do box breathing, certain type of breathing which you breathe into account. You hold it for a count, you breathe out for your count, you hold it for a count. And all that does is just separate you from the moment you do it a few times and allows you to come back with a fresh set of eyes.

Nice and simple.

But it has to be simple because complicated things don't work.

Yeah, I like that.

The other part, way of doing it often is to do something called eft, where you tap, tap pressure points, which can be quite useful as well.

That's the idea of tapping.

Yes. Yeah.

And would you recommend, if someone hasn't experienced that before, that they could go along to a practitioner and learn?

Yes, learn it because it's very useful. And once you've learned it, it's very easy to apply. It has its limitations. It's very difficult to do it in the middle of a room with a whole lot of people staring at you. You can box breathe and nobody knows.

And that box breathing, I love it. We had a Navy SEAL on the show a while ago, and the Navy SEAL and the SAS tend to use this box breathing.

The other element I've added to it is I tap to the rhythm that I'm breathing or counting.

As a drummer, I appreciate that.

So that adds another component which I think is quite important.

Definitely. Yeah. And for those that want to try it today, it's essentially breathing in for a count of four or eight counts, hold for the same, release for the.

Same, and then hold again, hold for the same.

And do that for a couple of minutes.

Yeah. Or three or four, five times. Whatever you feel it takes. And the interesting thing is you can't be doing that and thinking about anything else.

Yeah.

Which is why I've added the tap, because I think that just helps focus the attention 100%.

I like that. So now we know how to detach. The next component of DAPR is the assess.

Yeah.

What does that mean?

Well, the pros and cons. And often that's why writing it down helps, as you know, because that can help drive clarity. And also it puts it out there. You can look at it out there. So it somehow makes it more achievable, more doable, or makes more sense. And the P, first you tell them what the P is.

So with the P, we've got prioritizing and planning.

Yes.

Which one do you think is more important to come first?

Probably gotta have a plan, then you figure out what you're gonna prioritize. One of the things I often get people to do in terms of organizing themselves, and I do it myself, is about once a week, I divide a four sheet of paper into panels. So in my case, it might be karate panel, mindset panel, graphics panel, life panel. And in those panels, I write down what I want to achieve for that week and cross them off as I achieve them and add to them as I need to. And the beauty of that is, at a glance, you can see where there's possibly something needs your attention. Also, the good thing about it, from my point of view is you can see that actually you get through a hell of a lot in a week that you don't normally realize. You know, responding to emails, answering a phone, phoning this person, that person, I just help. For me, that makes me assist in my planning process and then helps me to prioritize.

Yeah, I think that's so important, Renzi Planning. Taking the time to get it out of your head onto a page. And this idea of crossing it off once you've done it. The neuroscience shows that there's a release or a reward every time you do that. That's powerful. And then after we've got. So we've Detached, assessed. We've got a plan. Now it's time to prioritize our priorities. What's the most effective way to get clear on what your priorities are?

Well, I guess it comes down to what's most meaningful for you. What's the most significant thing, which is why the detached part is so important. So you can see it clearly and know that we won't be clear about those things all the time. Because that's part of life. That's why the last part is reviewing it.

Get out there and execute.

Yes.

And do the thing.

Yeah. And then review.

And how important is it to pause and review?

I think it's usually quite critical. It's like when you're doing a piece of artwork, you know, you've got to sit back and have a look at it to get a bigger picture and overview. And that allows you to get some sense of where it's at, where you need to put your attention on so you can make it a more complete piece of work.

I 100% agree. For me, Ramsey, that's a weekly commitment on a Sunday where I just sit.

Down and get clear, which is great. That's why, as you know, we all know, rituals and routines are so important because they allow you to feel in control of whatever's going on. So, as you know, I'm totally boring. I had the same thing for breakfast every morning and the same thing for lunch. And I've got a little ritual and routine because it allows me to feel like I'm in charge of the day even, because often the day gets in charge of you. So just. They can be whatever you like. And of course, doing martial arts, it's full of ritual.

Rituals are an important part of life and community. And from what I understand, there's psychological and emotional benefits to it as well.

Yes.

And so the idea of waking up and lifting your phone, checking your email, sitting on social media, reading the news on your phone, what I'm hearing is that's probably not the most effective way to start a day.

It depends on the context in which you're operating in, I guess, because depending on the environment, it may be essential to get that information.

So it's knowing what is going to be useful at that particular point in time because it's contextual. Just like behavior 100. You know, sometimes yelling at someone is the most effective, efficient way of getting movement.

Yeah. So if they're going out in front of the young child. Going in front of a car.

Exactly.

Whereas sitting in an office, around a table, maybe not the best Time.

No, no, it's not the best time. But if the child's running across the road saying don't run across the road, Johnny, that's not very effective. So there was a place for, you know, all of these things as we both or is everyone listening will know 100%.

And when we think about rituals, the one I want to talk about, and you shared this with me a number of years ago. So you're about to turn 80 next year. You and I will go out for walks occasionally and you often lead the pace. You're very healthy, very fit and you know, you still are involved in martial arts, very mobile and cognitively so switched on. So for others that are not there yet in terms of age, you have a ritual that you shared with me. It's the fountain of youth, I think it was called.

It's five yoga exercises. Tibetan Yoga.

Tibetan yoga.

And what I like about these particular exercises is they're all movement.

The first one is you stand on, you're standing upright, your arms are out right angles and you spin around, in my case 21 times. So when you start the exercise, you start off with three and you add two every week till you get to 21. So there's five exercises and they're all movement. And now I follow up with push ups on my knees, save my back. So I add two every week. So I'm up to 136 at the moment. So I just add two every week.

Just amazing.

Just to see how far you can get. You know that's unreal. But the whole thing is often you get up and it's the last bloody thing you want to do is exercise. But it's very helpful. It's a great way to start your day because you feel like you're in charge of it.

100. Yeah, I'm going to put a link because the book you lent me, the book, I'm going to put a links where people can go and buy that book if they want to learn about.

Yeah, yeah. It's very simple and you know, from my personal experience, well worth putting the effort in because only takes 15, 20 minutes at most.

And that's a ritual obviously that you're committed to and also with your mind. I just feel that you have this curious mind. It's almost like you're still in your 20s, asking questions, wondering, is that an important aspect of.

I think so, yes. Because.

The other thing about the rituals I have Friday off. Important to have rest, important to have a day off. Yeah, I think it's useful to Be curious, because the other problem with Richards, of course, is you can shut everything else off and not get involved. Which is one of the nice things about being involved in something like a martial art or a club or a community is that it helps you stay connected.

Because once you start to disconnect, then you start shutting down, which for some people is not a bad thing. I have an auntie who's 86 and she just sits in a chair in her room. She doesn't care, but she loves it. Had a very busy life. So for her, that's fantastic. So I try not to be judgmental around that thing. Every time I go and see her, she's always in a good space. So you can't argue with that.

Everyone's got their own way to deal with it.

Yes, everyone has their own story and, yeah, that's incredible.

And for you, when we think about the wisdom you have, the experience you have, you've got a lot to share and not everyone knows that you're there to share it. So I want to just take a moment to let everyone know that, particularly here in New Zealand, if they have businesses or teams or individuals who'd like to talk about mental skills, you're open to that.

That's very nice of you to say that. Yes, I'm the world's worst at promoting myself, which is really interesting because my oldest child, her daughter runs a PR company, so she obviously didn't take after me in that department. No, I find it. It's just not something I've ever done. But it's one of my favorite sayings is our greatest strength can often be our greatest weakness, depending on the context. And to me, this is.

Quite appropriate and applicable that something I might perceive as a strength can also be a weakness.

Definitely. I could see that. And for those that would like to connect with Renzi, please drop us a line. We'll connect you directly with Renzi to discuss anything you'd like to do with him. I've had Renzi in to work with a number of my clients and Renzi, they loved it.

Thank you.

That was amazing. And every time I'm with you, I'm learning, which I'm keen on. So if we just chat a little bit about some of the other things that you and I have traversed. So when we first met, I was married and of course now I've separated, divorced, and I'm in a new relationship. And you helped, whether you know it or not, you helped me navigate that and you were able to support me, but also to challenge me and ask me questions and, you know, what did you learn and what does different look like and what might you do differently? James, that was really helpful. And for those that are listening, they may be in amazing relationships right now. Maybe they've been up and down in relationships. Maybe they've got a future divorce and they don't know about that yet. You have a bit of experience in that area.

I have. I've been married twice. But my last partner, we lived together about 17 years. And my present partner, we've lived about seven years, I think, interestingly enough, my last partner, we get on like a house on fire.

And my first wife, we get on very well. My second wife has become a spiritual guru, so I haven't seen her for years. But even though you separate and divorce and that there's no reason why you can't sustain a healthy communication because there's all sorts of reasons why people break up.

So I feel I've been very fortunate with my relationships, even though they've been hugely painful at the time often.

So you just don't get stuck in that place. You move on or allow yourself to move. And it's not easy. It's challenging. But then what worthwhile things in life aren't challenging.

It's interesting that my former wife and I have a great friendship. We talk almost daily. We co parent. My partner, Caroline, gets on really well with her, and I don't take that for granted. I feel that that takes intentional work from all parties. And I really attribute a lot of that to your perspective of how it can be navigated. What advice do you have for people around communication within any relationship that they're in? How do we communicate effectively?

Be careful of the words you use because that drives an emotional response. And especially when we're going through a separation, often we can become very angry and we have a tendency to blame the other person and not to accept any responsibility ourselves. So the first thing is being aware of those aspects which can easily impact on the way that you deal with things going forward.

Again, the key word is acceptance and not blaming, knowing that whatever happens, both parties have had a part to play in it. Whether you acknowledge that or not is another thing. And it's an aspect of life. And it teaches you a heck of a lot because it teaches that relationships are something you have to work on daily, really. And the key word for me is being kind.

And not judgmental. Blaming.

How do you think that that affects leaders as well? The idea of being kind, I've got to be firm and direct. But being kind, how can they go about navigating that?

Well, part of that is, from my experiences, everyone has their story. And part of being a leader, I suspect, is hearing other people's stories and giving them an opportunity to say what they are. Because otherwise we make assumptions, which often can be dreadfully wrong. And I've done this, so I know what it's like. So just being open and realizing that people have their story, you may not know what it is, but it's often very helpful to find out, especially when you're running a group of people, to have some sense of what that story is and what impact that has on the way that they respond and behave. So to the best of your ability, you can accommodate that without it being detrimental to whatever outcome you're trying to achieve.

Which is easier said than done. We all know that.

Often with these things, it's really easy to talk about them like we're doing. But we all both know everyone listening will know it's not easy at all. It's quite challenging at times. But if we have structures and framework in place, that makes the challenge significantly easier to navigate.

Yeah, 100%. And I guess communication in a relationship is equally as important in teams, organizations, government level.

Yep. Doesn't matter where. It's the same thing, you know, transcends it all. Yeah. And communicate.

And that's about connections. And again, the more connections, the more connected we are, the more joy there is. Doesn't mean we have to agree.

All the time, because life's not like that.

Life can be tough.

Yeah. Challenging, difficult. Of course, you and I have chatted.

Recently about this and as you have got older, you've navigated loss of friends.

Yes. Just going through that at the moment.

Sorry.

Yeah. Someone I've known for 50 plus years, Chinese man, he was 90, was the new Zealand weightlifting champion in his youth. Got to the point where he couldn't walk without falling over and his body was covered in bruises and speech was severely compromised. And that's quite challenging when you've known someone for so long.

But again, the key thing is accepting it, it is what it is, and working within that framework and still being kind and open and being present for.

Yeah, yeah, you've navigated. I've navigated some loss and death myself, but you've navigated a lot more. And there's always the grief period, the sad period, all the emotions. Then sometimes at the end, there's the little lesson that comes up. What have you learned from losing people throughout your life?

It's inevitable. So Acceptance becomes a key word. Doesn't mean it's not sad and not challenging, but accepting. I was very fortunate because when I was significantly younger I went to America and did training with a woman called Elizabeth Kubler Ross, who was a very famous Swiss psychiatrist who wrote a book on death and dying and the grieving process. And when you're in a workshop for a week with 76 other people and some of them have only got literally weeks left to live and you hear their story.

It'S quite a learning experience. So that had a huge impact on the way I perceive loss because it's inevitable for all of us.

Yeah, we all signed up for it when we arrived here apparently. And it's interesting when you talk about this idea of studying and being curious, you've went and studied lots of different.

Modalities, nlp, eft, eft, Avatar, program called Avatar. Yeah. And I trained under an American psychiatrist, kind of psychologist.

So it all very helpful. And they all have their own perspective and ways of looking at it, their own particular tools that they use. So it's very useful. So learn a few things and choose which ones you think are gonna work best for you and away you go.

Yeah, I love how you do that. And you have a toolkit really to help people with the tool that they need at that moment.

Yeah. And a good saying is Zen mash used to say the need to be right or wrong is a sickness of the mind. There isn't, doesn't mean there isn't right or wrong, but the need to be right or wrong. So if you have to be right, then it cuts off all other options. So being open to alternative ways of looking at things can be really helpful.

What's really interesting about that is you have helped a number of athletes and teams at Olympic level and everyone won medals of all descriptions, including gold, top rugby professionals and then across multiple sports and martial arts. I was chatting with a gold medal Olympian a few weeks ago and he came back from Paris. He's a Kiwi, great guy and he was just saying that he's got a mental skills coach and had her for a number of years and she's obviously been very effective with him. But from my understanding is they're going to be changing roles, high performance sport are going to be changing rules around what they will fund and they'll only fund clinical psychologists. What's your thoughts on that?

Well, obviously I had thoughts because I'd never been to university.

In fact I got asked to leave high school not because I was particularly naughty, because I Wasn't interested. I knew what I wanted to do. Funnily enough, I'm still friendly with one of my high school teachers after all those years.

They may well have very good reasons for making that decision, and I'm not aware of those. So there may be valid reasons for it, but given my particular background.

You know, I can't agree, because different people bring different things to the table and someone may be very effective for one person and nowhere near as effective for another. So I guess it's the athlete finds out who they can work with and who is going to be the most effective for them. That's the bottom line, isn't it?

I've always operated like that myself. Even, you know, I go back to my drumming days. It wasn't who's got the most qualifications as a drummer. It's like, who can I connect with? Who can challenge me and equip me? Job done, let's go.

Yeah. And some of the supervisors I had were very well equipped in terms of.

And some of them weren't as equipped. So you learn different things from all of them. It's just finding the one that resonates for you and is going to work at that particular point in time.

And I guess the word effectiveness comes to mind, the ones who are going to be the most effective for you. So, as I said, I'm not sure why they've made this decision and they may have really good reasons for doing that, but I don't know. Yeah.

And hopefully it won't stop athletes from working with the people they want to work with that don't have that university qualification to their name, you know?

Yeah. Yeah.

And Ranji may ask, you're at a point in your life where you can look and reflect on all different moments in your career, in your relationships as a dad. And there's highs and lows. Right. But when you look back on it, are there anything that comes to mind that you would say, I regret that, doing it or not doing it.

Now, I've always said it's important not to look on your life and not regret it. The way I frame it is I often wonder what pathway my life might have taken had I made other decisions and choices. But I don't regret not having because I've led a very privileged life and I'm in a privileged position, so I don't have regrets per se, But I do sometimes wonder, I wonder what life, my life would have been had I made other choices.

And for the person that's listening right now going, okay, when I get to 90 or 100 or beyond. I'm looking back, I want to have maybe less regrets. Do you have any advice for them in terms of making decisions?

And.

I guess it often comes down to what are the needs and wants at the particular age you're at. So the age I'm at, my needs and wants are vastly different than when I was 40. So I guess it's being aware of what's going to serve you and your significant other. If you're in a relationship or your family, what's going to serve you the best.

But that's going to change considerably for each person. And obviously it changes with age, because what I wanted when I was 21 is nowhere near the same as it is now. There may be some things that are still sustainable, but it changes. There's movement. Sorry.

I like it. And in terms of pride, and I know that's an area that, you know, when I try to talk about some of the amazing achievements you've had, you'll kind of get a bit shy or move on, or maybe you'll crack a joke and. And not spend time acknowledging your greatness. What are you proud of when you look back on your life?

I don't think of it in those terms.

I might think of it in what's been rewarding.

Because often we achieve things because we've been placed in a privileged position through one reason or another.

It's like, as you know, I'm involved in music. It's like music. And I've never had a desire to achieve anything, particularly. I just didn't like the process. And just being involved in the process gives you that connectedness. And being around people who are actually very good at what they do, that's quite lovely. So that's kind of the way I try and look at it.

I like that a lot. And the reason I want to highlight that is I feel like high performers and driven people. It's about an outcome, an achievement, a gold medal, a salary, whatever it is. But when I look at your life, there's a roundedness and a connectedness.

I think the outcome is important because you need to be clear about what you want your outcome to be. But your attention needs to be on the process.

Satisfaction is in the outcome, but the joy is in the process. The more connected you are, the better the outcome anyway.

That's really powerful.

I think that, from my point of view, is a critical aspect of all performance.

And when we look at what you do, I feel that you have multiple interests, your music, you've got Design, art, you help older individuals, younger individuals, right down to primary school. How important is it for us to have a bit of variety in our lives?

I think it's possibly quite important because each variety presents slightly different challenges. Yeah, I've never deliberately stroven to have variety, it's just the way it's unfolded.

And I was lucky that I had a mother who was artistic and used to spend a lot of time sitting on the edge of the bed drawing. I had a father who liked to sing and yodel and all that sort of stuff, so I got that from him. So different people can influence an impact on your life and that leads you along certain pathways. It's just allowing that process to happen and accepting it and being grateful for it because it leads you to places where you might not have gone otherwise.

When I look at your life I see a richness and what I mean by that is you've got a really wide array of beautiful friends, you got a beautiful partner, you connected with your kids, you enjoy music still, you're still active physically, you're active in the community. And I see that as something that you intentionally set out to do. It's not just, oh, it happened by accident, you've made an effort.

Yeah, I think an effort is a good word to use. You have to use an effort. Every Tuesday at 9:30 I go to a local place where about 30 or 40 elder musicians go. And I've been invited along and I'm getting to know them and that's been a great experience. Just people that chatting away to people who are basically strangers and finding out what the connection is and finding out what does connect us. Because one of my things is regardless of where we're from, what culture, cultural background we have, we all share similar themes in our lives as humans. And often I think we get sidetracked by the whole cultural business, which is understandable in part. But we're humans and we all share similar themes. Don't care where you're from. And as you know, when you're traveling, you get to experience that firsthand.

We're more alike than we are different.

Oh yeah, Yeah.

I think we've got hopes, dreams, worries.

Fears, all of those things, loss, betrayal, whatever, you know, we've all experienced parts aspects of those things as humans and that should be what connects us rather than what separates us.

Beautiful. I'm with you on that. And for the person who just sits only in the present or the past and doesn't plan for the future, doesn't get clear on where they're headed. Do you have any concerns around that if people aren't focusing on moving towards something?

Well, I probably could be guilty of that myself.

Because I guess I'm heading towards death. So I don't want to contemplate too much around that. On the other hand, we've just had a discussion, my partner and I, and what we need to plan to encompass that so that when it happens, the transition is as easy for both of us as possible. So I guess that will imply some sort of sitting down and navigating it and navigating it from a perspective of joy as opposed to.

Being sad and sorry about ourselves because it's inevitable.

How do you do that? Like the word joy and death in the same sense. It's like, whoa, I would like to get there.

Well, dying is inevitable. So you know, being present is the critical regardless. But for a lot of people, there comes a time in their life when they're just ready to go acceptance again. And I've kind of just experienced that with close friend.

He was ready to go. So.

That'S their decision and why wouldn't we embrace it and go with it? Doesn't stop it from being sad, doesn't stop it from shedding a tear and all those sorts of things. But it also allows us to be grateful for the life that they lead.

Renzi, thanks for sharing that. And I think that death is something that I struggle to talk about. And I'm sitting at 38 right now. I've got an eight year old son, a loving partner. It's like the thought of that is just like, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, that has to be way in the future. But I'm a realist. That could be in a minute. There's nothing guaranteed. So this idea of presence, you've brought it up a lot. I feel like it's a theme.

Yes, well, being present. I used to do Zen under a Zen teach, Master Sasaki, and being present is a big part of Zen practice.

I learned he was Leonard Cohen's Zen teacher.

And we used to do sessions, which is a seven day retreat. And I learned a lot from that about what enlightenment was because we used to get fed mung beans and it was pretty bloody horrible. So I had to deliver something to his cabin and he was eating crayfish and drinking sake. So taught me a lot about enlightenment and being present. It's important to practice being present because where you are is the only time you've got.

This is reality right here, right now.

At the moment, yes. It doesn't mean you shouldn't plan ahead. But you can do that by being present.

Easier said than done. And we all lose our way.

That's part of being a human.

Yeah. I think my challenge is I know I need to be present and I try really hard to be present. And there are times when my focus is pulled in different directions. So I feel like the muscle that I'm trying to build is this pulling it back, like realizing I'm distracted, thinking, oh, bring it back.

I think the very fact that you're observing this process means you are present, doesn't mean we don't get distracted. But being an observer of that process allows you to be present but still depart from the immediate present, if that makes sense.

Yeah, absolutely.

Because that's part of the creative process often is allowing your mind to go to different places.

Wonder. Yeah, it's interesting. I interviewed a lady about four months ago and she is a mind wandering professor at one of the top universities in la and she talks about the importance of getting away from devices like phones and TVs, getting into nature, walking and just letting the mind wander and it creates connections and creativity and innovation.

It's interesting because where I live, about 30 seconds, well, a minute, two minutes walk is a cafe. So often I just go for a walk to the cafe, have a look to see if I know anybody there, if I know anyone, don't, and then walk back. And in that walk, that allows me to go off in all sorts of directions, but because it's got a starting point and an end point, that allows me to keep going back to the present.

I love it.

At least that's one way of looking at it.

Yeah. And for others that want to become more present, have you got any other approaches or tools that have been helpful if they find themselves?

Well, often practicing that box breathing helps you. Any kind of breathing, type of exercise or just allows you to be present.

Zen was very powerful for that because you're concentrating on your breath and breathing through your stomach, up into your diaphragm, all that kind of stuff just allows you to be and just connect with whatever it is you're doing. So, as you know, I drink a couple of red wines every night, so I feel very connected when I do that. So it's good practice. How's that for a rationale?

I love it when you're savoring that Merlot. You're deeply present.

Yeah. And I couldn't get a better rationale than that which we could all describe in different ways.

But yeah, when I hear you share things, Ramsey I love it because a number of years ago I read this book around blue zones. And it was these five areas around the world where there was a disproportionate amount of centenarians. People over the age of 100, living connected lives, healthy, mobile, cognitively switched on. And they started to study them deeply and they realized there was a bunch of different things going on. One, they were physically active throughout their lives, and whether it was martial arts or hill walking, whatever. Yeah, always active. Secondly, they had a deep connection with community. And it could be a community group, it could be a knitting class, it could be volunteering. They had a deep sense of purpose, like something that got them out of bed in the morning. They felt they were meaningful in some way to others. Red wine surprisingly came up, was a lot of the Mediterranean, Okinawa, Greece. And so this was a really important thing for a lot of these different Japanese and Mediterranean cultures was wine. And not only for the benefits. I don't drink alcohol myself, but also the connection.

The only problem I've got, I'm a bit like my father. I get too enthusiastic.

So I have to be disciplined about it because I could quite easily. And the older you get, the more easier it is to slip into. Who cares?

Yeah, I've got nothing crazy to do tomorrow.

No, who cares? That's brilliant. So I have to be quite disciplined around that because I could quite easily collapse and sometimes I do.

How do you maintain discipline through life? I can imagine discipline for a month, a year, a couple of years, but maintain discipline for decades.

Well, I guess I've been fortunate, as most of us are, in that we're involved in things like my work, careers, martial arts. You have to be disciplined, just undertaking things that require that. So it just becomes part of how you function. And I kind of don't think of it as being disciplined. I just think of it as you do what you do and this is the way you do it. Again, the words you use often drive the emotional response. And if discipline works for you, then that's the word you use.

And this word, this idea of word association I was reading recently, just around negative words or swear words or negative self talk, they leave an emotional residue.

Yes.

And even a hormonal residue.

Yes.

So do you feel that self talk is something that the listener should be conscious of?

Well, conscious of the words that you're using.

And not being judgmental about it. If you are using them, just be aware.

Because as I said, changing the words changes your emotional response. So this is bloody difficult as opposed to, oh, what Am I going to learn here? You can start off being difficult because that's a normal human response. But then if you change the word to what's the learning or what's the opportunity? Then it shifts the whole dynamic of it.

What I love about that, Renzi, it's not this toxic positivity of going. Even in the face of the most horrific circumstance, I'm going to be positive it's going, no, this is terrible. I'm angry, sad, whatever it might be.

But then after that, acknowledging what you're feeling because it's a human response and then allowing yourself to move and not judging yourself for it, although we all do at times.

Natural, you know, times I've said to myself, you're an idiot. And then I say, yes, you're quite right, that allows you to move. Yeah.

And you've taught me that you're not. Your mind, like you do observe it.

There's different components there and different things drive different responses at different times, some of which you're probably not consciously aware of.

And Renzi, I want to be mindful of your time, but I just want to encourage everyone to consider, you know, their mentality, their purpose in life, what they're doing and just reflect on this conversation. Anybody that is interested in connecting with you, either for one to one or group work, I'll get them to get in touch with us and we'll pass them directly your way.

Appreciate it. Thank you.

I can't speak highly enough of the work that you do.

Thank you. Embarrassing, but thank you now.

You're incredible.

I'll live with it. Might go away and write a song about it.

Well, that's one thing you're very good at, I have to say.

No, that's good and I appreciate the opportunity.

And your skill set.

No, thank you.

It's been good learning for me.

Can I ask you one more question?

Yes.

If we were to fast forward many years into the future.

Yeah.

You're highly aware that it's your last day here on earth. Someone young comes in through the door there that you love and you've got a lot of time for. And they say, renzi, how do I lead my life on purpose? What would you say to them?

Well, it's a layered question, isn't it?

There's not one answer to give to that, I don't think.

But I would probably say find what connects you.

Because that's what's going to give your life joy and meaning and purpose and knowing that that'll change as you age and get older because what's going to connect me if I'm 90 is going to be different than what connects me when I was 60 and allowing that process. Engage in the process. Because that gives you. The more connected you out of the process, the better the outcome. Anyway.

That makes sense. I like that it transitions and moves through life as well. Let's just stay connected.

That's the way it is. Yeah.

That's powerful.

Easy to say. We all know it's challenging to do, but that's life.

Yeah. The easy things can be the most difficult things.

Yeah. And embracing them is one of the answers. Embrace that challenge because then.

Yeah.

Well, Renzi, thank you. Thank you so much for connecting and for continuing to be so giving of your time, so giving of your wisdom. So long. May it continue.

Thank you. And I appreciate the opportunity.

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