https://www.listennotes.com/e/e6e959175491486bbefb268bd6e260ee

Hey, James here. Got some news for you. My book is now available for pre-order. That's right, in the show notes, you can go and pre-order it today. And if you do, I'm going to give you some incredible free bonuses. Head over to thehabibook.com that's thehabibook.com to pre-order yours today. Welcome to the Lead on Purpose podcast. I'm James Lachlan, former seven-time world champion and now coach to entrepreneurs, CEOs, professional athletes all over the world. This show is for people who refuse to settle, people who are driven, people who want to grow, who know that there's so much more to learn and want to learn from the world's best. Each week I bring you insights from a special guest who's at the top of their game, whether they're in Formula One, whether they're a billionaire, whether they've started a company from scratch and ticket to the top. I bring them to you so that you can rewire your mindset, take action and lead a A life of purpose. Let's get started. Today's special guest is Kyle McDowell and we're gonna talk about the 10 Whys of value-based leadership. You do not wanna miss this one. It's absolute gold for you leaders out there. Enjoy the show. The Lead On Purpose podcast is sponsored by NZ Mortgages. Learn more at nzmortgages.co.nz.

Kyle, a huge welcome to the Lead On Purpose podcast.

James, man, it is really great to be here. Thank you for having me. Oh, it's a pleasure. And you and I, we speak the same language. We understand that everything rises and falls on leadership. And the good, bad, the indifferent, it all comes back to how people lead themselves and others. So, what got you into this business of leadership?

It's a great question, man. I think it started at a really young age. So, I grew up playing sports. I played quarterback from the age of six or seven through high school. And I believe that's when I realized if you want people to row in the same direction, for lack of a better cliche, or if you want people aligned around a common mission, winning a football game, it can't be accidental. It's got to be, someone needs to step up and say, this is what we're doing. This is how we're going to get there. and still a sense of confidence in those around you. And I think it started, gosh, way back then. Because I do remember when I got my first gig inside of the corporate world, I do remember hearkening back to some of those experiences as a football player, trying to convince someone that they could do something that maybe they didn't believe they could do, or trying to turn a bad situation into something a little more optimal. So I think I realized at a young age that there's no, there's no, there's no I, there's, there's no, nothing, nothing of any significance is accomplished alone. And it's never more, more obvious than the world team sports. So I think I, I believe I started, you know, way, way back in the day and just kind of, I've become a student of leadership as well. So I read a lot about, about leadership. I, I have a few mentors and, and I would call them role models that I look up and follow that have helped me kind of become the leader that I am, but it's never finished. I'm never there, man. It's always something I'm trying to be better at.

That's beautiful. It's interesting. I was speaking at an event yesterday, and the CEO got up and said, I've got a few principles I want to share. And the first one I really connected with, and it was the band Beats the Busker. And I thought, wow, I'm a former drummer in a band, and we were pretty competitive at what we did. And, you know, I was fortunate to win some world titles as an individual, like a busker, a soloist. But then winning world titles as a band and helping others win world titles, that was so much more fulfilling. Because I agree with you, this is not a solo sport. There's no I involved. It's all about us.

Yeah, right on.

I love it. Now, Fortune 500, Fortune 50. Keep bringing it down. Fortune 10. You've worked in Fortune 10 companies. These are large corporates. They're making a big impact on the world. Some obviously of them are doing it in a very positive way. Some maybe not so depending on how you look at it. But they're big units. We're talking tens of thousands of associates, employees, whatever we might call them. Lots of responsibility. What was your greatest learning coming out of that corporate world around how not to lead?

Wonderful question because I would say with maybe a hint of arrogance, but I do believe it's genuine. the characteristics that I am most proud of as a leader, I learned from what not to do. Watching really, really toxic leaders, self-centered leaders, those that were more concerned about their own accolades and growth than the team. So that is, I love the way you frame that because that is, you know, we often complain about having a bad boss or we work inside of a toxic organization. There's always still something to be learned. remember how you felt when you were in that experience or when you were subjected to those types of environments. And that hopefully should fuel us to try to transform the environments that we're in if we have an opportunity to do so versus just perpetuating it. So, you know, I don't know that there was one significant event or time throughout my career that put me on the path or the road that I'm on now, but I will tell you, at least in my experience, the larger the organization, the more opportunity there is for dysfunction because that's when the silos become more prominent. That's when the I versus you, the someone must win for another person, someone must lose for another person to win. Those types of paradigms start to creep in. And I have been in one scenario where I felt like the toxicity and the dysfunction was just too deep in the company's DNA. But aside from that scenario, man, I've always been focused on, and it's kind of been a path of mine or a component of my career. It's every stop along the career had a transformational component to it, whether it was an operational consolidation or whether it was refining existing processes or teams or whether it was combining different business units into one or you name it, any variety of scenarios over the course of nearly 30 years. But there is, I'll leave you with this on this question. I remember a time, it was probably early 2000s, maybe 2009 or 10, I had about 300 employees in my organization. I led about 300 employees. And there was a change to Medicare. So it's government-sponsored healthcare when our country introduced the Part D prescription drug plan to bolt onto Medicare. It was huge legislation, drove massive change in the marketplace. And no exaggeration, literally overnight, I went from a couple hundred employees to about 3,000 employees because we had to outsource to take on this new deluge of business we were about to receive. And I remember being quite intimidated that, oh my gosh, I've only led a couple hundred people and going to this many and it's around the world. you know, I need to step up my game or do something differently. And within a very short period of time, I realized whether it's 200, 2000 or ultimately I led north of 15,000 employees in a couple of different spots, my approach is no different. Whether it's 200, 2000 or 20,000, it's all about the people. Now it's harder to reach every one of those people. It's harder to have an impact on every single one of those folks. That's why it really matters to have a good core of people around you that you can trust, they trust you. and you can be confident that they're gonna continue to evangelize the message that and the principles that I was espousing. But, you know, I share this piece because I don't want your audience to hear, oh, this guy, you know, he managed 10, 20,000 people. I only manage 10 or I only lead 15 or whatever the scenario is. It's no different. It's people are people and they're always the solution.

Hey, James here. I wanted to take a quick moment to let you know about something. Look, I get asked to deliver keynotes and workshops for teams and companies all over the world, from London to Antarctica, from America to Australasia, from armies to small businesses, to large corporates, to sports teams. But I go in and deliver keynotes around the mindset of high performers, around the habits of high performers, about how we navigate change. If you would like me to come and speak to your team or speak at your conference or deliver a bespoke workshop, please get in touch with my team. Caroline@jjlachlan.com will be able to help. I'll also make sure that we put that in the show notes. So well said. I have a friend who previously he was the CEO or the president of Adidas North America and I was talking about what he's most proud of and he just said, People, the people, the people. and he said it was always about the people. And he says, I made some really unpopular decisions with Germany headquarters around COVID time when I just shut things down before, you know, they pretty much said, do not shut down North America, you know, don't shut down New York. Don't think these stores need to stay open. He's like, nah, I just shut them on down anyway.

You know, I love that. Well, James, that reminds me of, you know, Jamie Dimon at Citi. I recall an interview many, many years ago, so someone asked him, how do you spend your days? How do you spend your time? It's like 90% of my time is spent on people. Developing, coaching, growing, nurturing, bonding. 10% is on the business stuff. But 90% of what I do is all focused on the people. And I'll never forget that guy that, you know, running a multi-billion dollar firm, multi-billion dollar firm, one of the most powerful financial guys in the country, if not the world, spends most of his time on people. That was really inspiring to me.

People need to hear that more. And, you know, I was chatting with a founder of a large company yesterday who's having some problems with his current CEO. and I was like, well, what's the root of the problem? James is so focused on sales, and that's his area of expertise, that he's forgetting about all the other important things, including the people and developing the people and maintaining and building culture. So this idea, you mentioned the word toxicity just a moment ago. What's the cost to, let's start with the company. What's the cost to the company if they set the standard of culture as a toxic culture. And it's all about numbers and it's all about quarterly returns and it's all about returning money to the shareholders. What's the true cost if they focus on that and they have a toxic culture?

So my answer is probably dissimilar from what others, if you've asked that question of others. To me, it's innovation. Because when we are in an environment where my ideas are not heard, There is not a focus on my development. In other words, as an employee of this company, I'm simply asked to do as I'm told and not much else. I used to raise my hand and offer solutions or try to give what I thought was good insight or good input to a change or perhaps an opportunity for us to do something a little differently. But after two or three times, four times doing that and realizing that the person to whom I report is not open to that, and then I changed divisions. I'm in another area of the company, and it's a very similar thing. So what happens? I just, I put my hand down. I stopped, I stopped thinking. I stopped inserting what I think is a value add comment or an opportunity or an option that maybe they hadn't thought of. So I think Innovation is absolutely stalled because look at it this way, regardless of the size of the organization, if we're in a toxic environment and diverse and unique experiences are not relied upon or called upon or they're not even considered. That means just by math, the number of people in the organization who are allowed, quote unquote, allowed to contribute innovative ideas, drive change, be the spark or the impetus of change and transformation. That number is much, much smaller. So we're left with an organization of a bunch of employees who are sheep. They don't think, they don't, they're not asking good questions because they know they're not being taken seriously. And every bit of change, innovation, provocative thinking always comes from the top down. So I believe, I'm convinced that it's a recipe for mediocrity. And ultimately it drives turnover and lots of employee dissatisfaction. I think ultimately our customers can feel that as well. But by and large, I think innovation is the biggest It's the biggest thing that we lose out on when we're inside of a toxic organization.

I agree. And you can see it in sport as well, professional sport. When people say success breeds success, I say wrong. Success breeds complacency because unless you're innovating, last year's performance will not guarantee next year's. You've got to be looking for the edge and you've got to be looking for what's going to help you get to the place you've never been. So I love the idea.

Oh, sorry, James. I didn't mean to cut you off. I was just, I was curious if you've ever heard Tom Brady's favorite Super.

Bowl ring of all of them. I haven't heard no, but I know.

Who Tom Brady is, and he's a bit of a legend.

Yeah.

Yeah. The goat, right? He's said this a number of times. I've seen it in multiple interviews. He's always asked, which of your Super Bowls is the most valuable? The one that you cherish the most.

The one that you're more, most proud of?

His answer every time is the next one.

I love that.

How about that, man? So I think that's hand in hand with what you just said about that's, you know, we excellence or winning or championships breeds complacency, not in, not in guys like that. And that you reminded me of that when you mentioned that.

I think it's important. Yeah. I was chatting to, I guess, the Tom Brady of New Zealand, who's a guy called Sam WhiteLock, and he's the most capped all black rugby player. So the all blacks are our national team and they're world champions rugby. So he's 153 caps and was chatting about, you know, what drives him and it was always what's next? Let's move on. We just won the world championships. Let's win the next one. And it was never resting on laurels. And I think that's important in high performance is to always be focused forward and almost be front and center of mass, like uncomfortably so at times, just always leaning forward.

Yes.

So let's chat for a second again on the toxicity piece. What's it like for an individual, a person? What's the cost to them if they stay in a toxic environment? What does it do to them, their life, their relationships?

What a great question. And I love the part you added at the end about their life and relationships because it's impossible to separate our work existence from our out-of-work existence. Now, I'm not saying we're the same person in and out, and I'm not saying I'm not saying you should be the same person, but it's impossible to disconnect one from the other, in my mind. We could spend the next hour talking about what the individual loses inside of a toxic organization. They lose motivation. They lose any sense of fulfillment. They lose the optimism with which they entered the organization or with which they came into their career however many years ago. They lose an opportunity to find their real passion in their work. And occasionally when I mention the word passion and work together, I get some eye rolls here and there. And I think it's misplaced because when I talk about passion as a leader or passion in the workplace, it has nothing to do with the company. It has nothing to do with the product or service we sell. It's a passion for developing people to help them on their path to do something bigger and better than they were doing yesterday. oh, by the way, when I'm successful at that, I also feel success. My cup is filled from that very same kind of approach in helping others. So if you're inside of an organization that is ripe with toxicity and dysfunction, ultimately you become a cog in a wheel or a number and your opinion's not valued. And then nobody wants to be in an environment where they're opinions not valued. I've come to the conclusion, I kind of created this a handful of years ago. When we talk about how people or the individual finds value or feels part of an organization, it's really as simple as A, B, C. And I mean this. Every single person, especially inside the workplace, they want to add value. A, sure there are exceptions, but for the most part, we come to work because we want to add value. We want to make a difference. at least until we're told that our efforts to make a difference are not relished. We want to add value. We want to be valued. Letter B. We want to be valued. So I'm going to add value to the organization or the team that I'm on, but I want to be recognized for that value. I want to be valued, and that's any number of ways, compensation, promotion, perks, whatever it is. And then lastly, the C is I think we all want to connect the value that we deliver to those who are on the receiving end of that value. So if I'm in a factory on a conveyor belt just processing widget after widget after widget, it sounds like a pretty soul-sucking environment. It doesn't sound, it's not motivating, it's lather and repeat thing, same thing over and over and over again. But I would bet anyone who's in that environment, that conveyor belt environment, if they were to see the reaction, the joy, the satisfaction that the end consumer experiences when that product is in their hands, I think their connection with their work is much more prominent, right? They feel as if they have made a difference. They've had a contribution they can look over and be proud of. So when we're inside of an organization that is ripe with toxicity and dysfunction and and any other ugly word you want to associate with so many environments. You know, those are the things that, that the individual loses out on. The unfortunate part, though, James, and I know you know this, is we don't realize it until, until maybe it's too late, and we're 40 years into a career, or we don't realize it at all. And that's the real shame. And I was that guy for the first 20-ish years of my career. I led very differently. I looked at my role inside of the corporate world very differently, and I had this Epiphany that changed everything for me. And Not only did it reignite passion and optimism and excitement for my work, the results I was able to deliver and the fulfillment were exponentially greater than the first 20-ish years of just kind of going through the motions.

That's incredible. And thanks for acknowledging that too. I think a lot of leaders want to sometimes forget about the early days. And for me, when I was leading a team in my 20s, I didn't speak to people the way they should have been spoke to. I was pretty driven to the point of aggression and obsession. It's a win-win-win. And, you know, yeah, we got results in terms of some wins, but there's a lot of collateral. And I don't look back with great, a great deal of Pride. Sometimes I look back with shame and have ranked some of those people and spoke to them like, God, I'm sorry that one time I said that or did that or expected this of you, like, I'm really embarrassed or I'm ashamed and I'm sorry. And most of the time they're like, oh, God, it was the price to, you know, the price of entry to win that. world championship or whatever it was. And so some of them didn't think it was a big deal. Some of them acknowledged thanks, like it was a big deal and you shouldn't have done that. And so I think it's important. And this book that you've written, we're going to get into it, begin with we. And I love that. We're going to get into it in a minute, but let's go back to your early days. What are one or two memories or moments of how you led that are at odds with the principles in your book?

What a great question. The first scenario that comes to mind is probably about a decade before I created the Principles and that are the foundation for my book. And I was up for a promotion. At the time, I worked for a health care company in Texas. And I was up for a promotion. The fella I reported to moved on to another area of the business. so I was on an interim basis reporting to the president of the division in which I worked. And most people kind of thought I was the shoe-in for the promotion to replace my leader who moved on, including me. I felt as if I was the no-brainer candidate. So the company started going through the interview process, bringing in externals, some internals as well, and fast forward a month or two and I didn't get the job. And meanwhile, throughout this whole process, I was still reporting to the president who was the hiring manager. So I'm interacting with him on a, you know, multiple times a week or almost a daily basis, which I thought would be to my benefit because he could see Kyle at his best, see me with my sleeves rolled up, like actually doing real work. And when my leader left, there was a gap of another functional area that was not performing very well and just kind of was in my nature. I threw my hand up. And I said, I got that. I said, I can take that on. No problem. Again, trying to endear myself for the, for this promotion. I didn't get the role. And I'm a pretty direct guy. You know, I just like to hear how it is. Don't sugarcoat it. So I sat down with the president, the fella I was reporting to after he made the hiring decision of the guy that was going to replace my former leader. And I said, Ted, man, I'm, I just, I just need to know, you know, what, what, why did you go another route? I felt like I was the guy for the role, and, and I'm just I'm curious. I'd like some feedback. And he said, Kyle, we really appreciated you taking on this extra work, this other functional area that was in trouble, but you never raised your hand for help. And I couldn't believe that was the reaction. And I was almost defensive in my response by saying, Of course, I had it. I still have it. We're improving. I've got this. And to him, it was a bigger indication of, something that I just wasn't mature enough to see at the time. And it was something we touched on already. It's like nobody does it alone. But I felt as though I'm the leader, I got broad shoulders, I raised my hand, I'm going to be the one to pull us through this, and then I'm going to be the one to be rewarded for it. All a terrible way of looking at this. The bumper sticker or the summary of that answer, James, is like, don't be afraid to ask for help, whether it's in our business lives, our personal lives, if we're dealing with something emotionally or psychologically or anywhere in between, you have to be comfortable to raise your hand and say, I need help, especially in organizations that embrace you raising your hand and saying, I need help. So for me, going back more than a decade now, it's been probably, yeah, it's been more than a decade now. That's my number one piece of advice for most folks is if you're struggling, you need help. You don't know the answer to something. You don't know where to go for something inside of your organization, your company, your team. ask because we're wired to want to help one another. And you'll find more often than not, the person that you end up asking is, is really excited to help you more often than not. So for me, it was feeling like I had to carry everything on my own. And I was the guy and couldn't do, couldn't, couldn't lean on, lean into or onto anybody else. And what a mistake.

Yeah. I think particularly as a young male, there's a lot of ego. There's a lot of, I need to prove myself. Sometimes there's a chip on the shoulder. Certainly for me, that was the case. And I look back. my God, I'm not proud of that. But yeah, I'm proud of some of the results. But I look back, I think we still could have got the results and I could have had a lot more fun and a lot less stress and people would have felt a lot more valued had I went about it differently. So the results still would have been the same, I think.

Well, and that's the thing. I love that you say that because I do believe a lot of people miss this. You can be very successful Pardon my, you can be very successful being an asshole. You can lead and deliver great results. You absolutely can. I've learned I can deliver those great results while having fun, while bonding with people around me, while having a sense of fulfillment and pride in my work. They're not mutually exclusive. You can be in a situation where you lead a team that you genuinely do care about one another. You pick each other up when you're down. You lead. you lead from the back, as they say. And I think that's where a lot of people miss. They feel like as if I become a little more vulnerable, shed some of this ego, ask for help, bring people to the table, it takes some shine away from me. And boy, what a mistake that is. You can deliver great results while still being someone that is focused on promoting and growing others around you.

I'm with you 100%. And let's chat about the book. I really wanna get into it. So what really drew me to it, and this was interesting, so about 10 years ago, Simon Sinek brought out a book to the world, Start with why. And I was like, gotta read it. So I read it and I was like, oh yeah, the purpose thing, it makes sense. Then when I seen yours, I was like, oh, this makes more sense. So yeah, Simon made sense, but this made more sense. Why? Because begin with we, starting with a why as an organization or a team, well, you can't start with a why until you've got like people on the bus, like you need people, you need people together. So I think you've got the first right ingredient. And I think Simon's work is so powerful and important, but it's almost like the second step. I feel like your book is the word teams should start and then next year we'll get start with why. But begin with we. So there's 10 principles. This is a framework for leaders and for teams across business, sport and whatever area. So take me through some of these principles and what they mean. Maybe I know 10 is probably quite a lot for us to go through, but maybe three or four of the ones that you think we need to maybe consider to start with.

Yeah, happy to and thank you for the chance to do so. Man, I think it's important though to add a bit of context. So, I had this was many, many years ago. I was in a position where I was pretty apathetic towards my work. I just, I was burned out. I was tired of the toxicity, all the dysfunction. And I said, I'm going to step away from the corporate world. I was a pretty lucky guy at the time. I was going to take a month or two off to figure out what I wanted to do next. I just knew the environment I was in was killing me. My health was bad. I was facing a divorce, which ultimately happened. I just was not a happy guy. So I stepped away and I told myself I would never go back into a similar type environment unless I was going to be afforded the opportunity to lead differently. I wanted to lead in a way that I had never been led. and I knew that there were some, there was some risk to that. But I just had this sense that if I could do it in a way that I always wanted to do it, but for whatever reason didn't do it because it would be less endearing to the boss that I had at the time, or it was just a different, you know, different, it wouldn't work inside the environments I was in. Well, I was out of work for about 10 days and I got a phone call asking if I'd come be considered and have a conversation about leading a pretty big organization, about 15,000 people. and I went through the process and I ultimately took the job and I was outspoken with the fact that I wanted to be different. I needed to be different for us to be effective or successful. So I took the role about 60 days into the role. I brought the top 40 or 50 leaders of this 15,000 person organization into one place. We were in Lawrence, Kansas and the night before I was going to meet with these leaders, James, I was terrified. I didn't know what I was going to say. I didn't know how I wanted the meeting to go. I had not met most of them at that point. That was my first time in front of many of them. And the night before, I was in my hotel room, laptop open, and I knew I had to create a few slides, something to kind of walk the team through. And it took me about two hours. And at the end of that two hours, I only had 10 sentences. But they were all products of things that I had experienced that I didn't want to be a part of and I didn't want to be known as and I didn't want to perpetuate, you know, things like we're gonna do the right thing, you know, very, very simple. We're gonna do the right thing. We're gonna pick each other up. We're gonna embrace challenge. We're gonna challenge each other. So I started to think through all the things that kind of I felt stood in the way of really achieving excellence. These 10 sentences all did and still do begin with the word we. So now I have the 10 We's. And I approached the team the next morning to say, listen, I And by the way, I should also add my direct reports, the team that reported directly to me, they had a collective experience or tenure in their roles of about 12 years. They had forgotten more about this business than I know, because I was 60 days into it. So I stepped out the next morning and I shared the principles with these team. I don't even recall if I use the word principles. I just said, these are the rules that will govern how we treat each other first. That's number one. I don't care about the client yet. If we're high functioning behind the curtain, we take care of each other, look out for one another, the client will feel that just like they feel it if we're a mess behind the curtains. So I shared the principles and what happened over the course of the next two, three years, it changed my life. It transformed this organization to deliver results far, far better than ever achieved before. I mean, like milestones and miles ahead. of where we had been. But more importantly, I watched bosses transform into leaders and I watched individuals and silos turn into real teams. Man, it was again, it changed my life. So when I left that organization, by the way, I should add the 10 Wees are still the cultural manifesto of that organization. Their performance appraisal appraisals revolve around the 10 Wees. They have the 10 Wee Awards twice a year. But since the book's been out, many other organizations have adopted similar approaches. But all of this came to a head when a year or two after I left that organization, I had left the company that I went to subsequently and was really burned out. And I got a few phone calls. I got phone calls mostly from people from my old team. And they said, okay, dude, are you really about this? Is how they framed it. Are you about this or is it all talk? Do you really believe in these principles? Are the 10 Whys really going to transform so many others the way that you think they can, the way that we have had the experience that we've had. So I was challenged and it was a challenge, but it also put, it cemented that I had made a difference. It cemented the fact that these principles were really making a difference for so many, which prompted me to write the book, which prompted me to go on this mission that I'm on to rid the corporate world of so many toxic ways. so that's the context. I mean, that, that's, that's the Genesis of how these things, how these principles came about. If you ask me, well, thank you. Thanks, man.

I was thinking, Kyle, we should perhaps then I, I'd like to go deeper into a few of them, but do you have the 10 in front of you? Maybe you could just let the listener.

Hear what the, the 10 whys are. Yeah, I'd be, I'd be happy to. And before I, I must always share this caveat as I walk through them, I can imagine your audience saying, Well, no shit. They're very simple, James. They're incredibly simple, but simple is not easy. And while most organizations do a really good job training the incoming employee on the standard operating procedures, you know, the how to, how to be effective at their job, the nuts and bolts of the, but very few organizations set an expectation for how we behave inside of this team, how we behave inside this organization. They have fancy mission statements and values and these things. No one can recite them and they don't do anything to compel the employee to work any harder or do any great work or drive big change. So with those two caveats, the first we is the most fundamental and it's the most simple of them all. It's the most, no shit Kyle, it's number one was we do the right thing always. And I always include that one word second sentence. And if I'm a leader inside of an organization, whether I have direct reports or not, the number one way I can demonstrate that I'm committed to doing the right thing is we number two, we lead by example. Again, very simple. The question is not, should I lead by example? The question is, because you are, you are leading by example. Every action, every interaction, every conversation you have, you're setting an example, you're setting a standard for those around you. The question to ask is, Am I leading by an example that I'm proud to see replicated or I would be proud to see replicated? So if I'm focused on leading by example as a leader or a member of a team, the number one way to focus that I am to demonstrate that focus is to make good on my commitments. That's we number three. We say what we're going to do and then we do it. Just it's that simple. When we make a commitment to one another, to a client, to a customer, we will absolutely deliver on that. The only chance of us not delivering would come with a message well before whatever that deadline was. So if we're going to say what we're going to do and then do it, it's all about action. And that's, that's we number four. We take action. So many organizations, every organization I've ever been associated with and now those that I do consulting and, and coaching with, they all have problems somewhere over in a corner. They're this gnarly set of problems that nobody wants to deal with for a couple of reasons, usually because there's no, no one, there's no benefit, right? If I raise my hand and say, this is broken over in the corner, let me go address that. If I stumble, if I fall, if it doesn't go well, or I make the problem worse, there's probably some retribution. And usually raising your hand to take on more work doesn't result in more money. So this bucket of problems is just always over there. In the culture of excellence that I was trying to create then and still work hard to create across my business, a culture of excellence, we don't look the other way. When there's a problem, we address it. Now, addressing it could be just surfacing, hey, we know it's there. It's not number one on the list of priorities. We're going to focus on some other things, but we're not going to turn a cheek to it. In the US, the Transportation Safety Administration, the TSA, we have a slogan that says, if you see something, say something. In our world, if you see something, do something. We don't turn a cheek. But if you're going to take action and you want members on your team and those around you to take action, you have to be prepared for things to not go well. and that brings us to we number five. We own our mistakes. If I want people to raise their hand and say, hey, Kyle, we're going to take on this gnarly situation over here. They can't be afraid of making a mistake. They have to know that they're going to be met with outstretched hand or some arms to pick them up and say, that's all right. We got this. We learned from it. We're moving on. So we can't get better by hiding our mistakes. We have to bring them to the Forefront. We're going to own them, but nobody's going to own them. unless they adopt and embrace we number six, we pick each other up. I had a fellow on my team many, many years ago who was responsible for doing repricing of a massive contract of ours. He made a $10 million mistake on a $700 million program. And he was ready to be fired. He knew he made a massive mistake that had implications much deeper in the organization, much deeper inside of our client's eyes or with our client. and he called me one evening. This was after the principles had been rolled out. And he said, hey, Kyle, this is probably eight o'clock at night. Hey, Kyle, we do the right thing, right? And I said, yep, we do the right thing, man. Absolutely. He said, hey, Kyle, we own our mistakes, right? I said, yeah, Nick, we own our mistakes. Where's this going? And nearly in tears, he shared with me the mistake that he and his team had made. My reaction is the same then as it is now. I don't judge people by their mistakes. I judge them by how quickly the mistakes are remedied and if they're repeated. Nick and his team put together all kinds of quality checks and systems in place to make sure that that error would never happen again. So what happened? We were better off for the mistake. We had more control in place after his mistake, and it never would have happened if he didn't raise his hand and say, I blew it. So that's an example of owning a mistake, turning into something much, much better. And we're better off for having discussed that and being open about it. When we turn the corner from six to seven is when it becomes a little bit less no shit land and more like it can be a problem, especially for most leaders. And number seven is we measure ourselves by outcomes, not activity. Man, it is so common inside of especially really massive organizations for people just to kind of stay off the radar, keep their heads down, and take pride in the 13 meetings they had yesterday or take pride in just how busy they are. I've had very, very high paid influential executives. Literally one comes to mind, rotate their laptop around to me and say, look at that calendar, Kyle. Look how busy I am. And I'm not impressed.

Badge of honor.

That's the term I used. I said, is that your badge of honor? That's exactly what I said, James. And, It didn't go well when I said that, but I literally, since he turned the laptop around, I felt it was on me to do so. I started pointing at each meeting and I said, what's the ideal outcome of this meeting? And he walked me through each of these meetings and most of them were kind of half-hearted answers. And I took him back to, because I was doing some coaching with him, I took him back to his performance appraisal. The eight or ten things on that performance appraisal that his company values most, his leader values most, and I went by each meeting and I said, how does this meeting contribute to any one of those outcomes that you've been signed up to deliver? And he struggled. He didn't have any good answers. For most of them, he didn't have any good answers. And that's the spirit of this principle. It's activity is important. We have to engage in activity to deliver outcomes, but we cannot fall in love with it. We can't be fixated on it. We can't reward it more than anything. We can't reward it. Our customers and the real world, they care about outcomes. activity is nice, but it's not why we get paid. We number eight, my favorite of all the principles, but by far the toughest to be grasped and lived on a consistent basis. And it's we challenge each other. We talked about this a bit earlier. Challenges are they're the fuel for continuous improvement. They're how we get better. Nothing in this world, in this life, in my mind, is accomplished without overcoming one or more challenges. But in most organizations, challenges are reserved for on high to the team. Occasionally, you'll have a leader who feels comfortable to kind of challenge or push back to their leader, but rarely is there an open forum to say, not only are you allowed to challenge me and challenge kind of where we're going and share your opinions, you're obligated to do so. Now, a challenge must be grounded in either data or experience. It can't just be your opinion. that's not helpful. We all have those.

So.

So we got to stick to data or experience. And if someone comes to you with either of those, you are. You must listen to them because I'm gonna challenge you back. But that needs to be no leadership. Yeah, that needs to be a. A bi-directional thing that the leader challenges their leader, members of the team challenge their team. And, oh, by the way, yes, peers challenge peers. If you're part of a team, you know this, man. If you're part of a team and someone on the team's not pulling their weight, Am I gonna wait for the coach to say something? I know you're better than that. I've seen you perform better than that. You're not pulling your weight. We need you, man. That's the kind of challenge peer to peer I think is really important. Now, that principle without we number nine is a recipe for anarchy and chaos. We number nine is we embrace challenge. External, internal, peer to peer, market forces, whatever, anything that's thrown at us. we're going to be galvanized by it. We're going to look it right in the eye and say, no problem. We don't like this. We're going to be open and transparent and genuine about it. Be very authentic. We don't like this problem. We don't like this challenge. We didn't ask for this challenge, but we're going to lick it. We are absolutely going to be galvanized and beat this. And then you see people really lock arms when you, when you take that approach. The last principle I save for the last on purpose, because I think if it's any earlier in the 10, it's a recipe for disappointment. That's we obsess over details. Details matter a lot in most industries. It's the details that separate the really, really great experiences from the not so great experiences. It's the details that separate high functioning teams and those that deliver great products or service to their customers, to those that just deliver kind of mediocre to those they serve. So obsessing over details is something that I think it's indicative and representative of our brand, how much we care about what we do. and the passion and care that we put into the work that we do. So those are the 10 ways, man. I appreciate you allowing me the chance to share. There's no way to run through it really quickly because they build upon one another, but I do appreciate you allowing me to share those.

I'm glad that you did and I appreciate you doing that because everyone wants to know what they are and every listener's going, well, what are they? Well, now they know what they are, but knowing them and doing them, two different things. So there's probably an action that's required right now of the viewer or the listener, and that's a very simple action. Go to the show notes. and order the book. Get the book right now. And if you run a team, maybe you've got five, six, seven or more people on your team, order them all a copy. Let's say, you know, make it a monthly commitment to read a chapter together. And let's get through what the 10 whys are. Now, this idea, I like it of sweating the small stuff. I love number 10 because often, you know, we have these quotes, don't sweat the small stuff. But when it comes to teamwork and excellence, we need to sweat. the small stuff. To me, that's just crucial. And it's interesting you said at the start, James, these are all kind of straightforward. It's no shit. They just make sense. But what I've found is that common sense isn't always common practice across teams, organizations, countries even. So that's probably my next question for you is, how do we take these 10 weeks? Because people can read and listen, But there's a big gap between people who read and listen and the people who actually implement. What's required of people to actually get these to come to life?

When I was asked to join you on your show, the title of your podcast resonated with me so strongly. Purpose. You cannot accidentally be an effective leader. You can't. It is something that you must remind yourself of every day, almost every interaction. Because when you're in a position of authority, it's easy to just phone it in sometimes, especially if you're the person to whom you report is, you know, in a different location or maybe they're, you know, you don't see them as often that, you know, you don't have daily interaction with them. It's easy to kind of forget the purpose that you should bring to your role. And I just, I could go much further without sharing that because having the principles and some Wall Street Journal, USA Today bestseller in front of you is not going to enable any change in your leadership journey. It has to be a decision and it has to be a purposeful decision. And it's not a one-time decision. It has to be made again almost every day or every interaction. so where I have found the, the biggest, the biggest hurdle, really, is when a leader will subscribe to the principles, maybe read the book, or I'd spoken at their company, they go back to their team and say, these are the 10 whys, and this is how we're going to run this team. This is who we are. And then the first time someone on the team raises their hand to offer a challenge or kind of push back on the boss and the boss puts the hand out and says, I'm not hearing this, either literally or figuratively, the 10 wheez are dead. They're a house of cards. So what happens is the, the leader sees the value in them, gets the team excited about them. But the first time they feel as if their Authority is challenged or they're in a position where maybe they're not the be all end all, they don't have the answer to this scenario. They don't have all the answers because someone else is you know, teaming them up or bringing them up, everything's it's done. It's over. So that's and that's why I feel like top down culture transformations or initiatives, they don't work. They've got to be they've got to start with a clear understanding that the team knows who we are, what we're doing and what we're trying to transform and achieve. But that leader must evangelize those same principles every single day. And that's when I knew these principles were starting to take hold is I would see them and hear them. And now it's commonplace. in everyday vernacular, in conversations that people may not even know that I was a part of. I'll dial into a call every now and then just to listen and make sure we got progress. And you would hear members of the team, one to another say, well, hey, Lori, we challenge each other, right? All right, I'm gonna push back on what you just said. And it creates this nomenclature and this vocabulary that people feel safe to issue these things because you've already subscribed. You've already said, I'm part of this team. I want to be a part of this team. you can't be a part of this team without the principles. So when they become part of the daily vernacular and how we talk and communicate and share ideas and even the tough conversations, the awkward conversations, that's when the progress is made. But the leader cannot do it selectively. It has to be something that they do every single day, every interaction. And if they do slide, they had to come back and apologize and say, that's not who I am, not what I'm meant to be. We're going to be better for that. I'm owning my mistake.

I love that sense of ownership, almost like radical ownership. Look, whether we love or loathe our country leaders, there's people listening from all many different countries right now, but you're in Florida, your new leader is going to be Donald Trump. Everyone's got different opinions and thoughts on him, but with the 10 whys, if you were to sit down, have a cup of tea with President Trump the day before he gets into office again, which two of the Weeds would you be like, Donald, please, nail these and you're good? What would be the two most important ones for him?

You know, my answer would be different if it were a different president. So I think I'm gonna take the question very seriously for, by the way, and I'm fine sharing this, I'm registered independent. I'm not registered Republican or Democrat. I like to pick the issue instead of being categorized or grouped in. So I can say that, I think, with a fair amount of authenticity. My conversation with Mr. Trump will go like this. If you ask me to share two, it's pretty obvious. The first is we do the right thing. Always. We can argue and disagree what the right thing is, but at the end of the day or the end of the conversation, we all know what's the wrong thing. And until you find the right thing, we're not going to settle for the wrong thing. So we're going to do the right thing always. And then for Mr. Trump, the second would be we embrace challenge. and that is challenges from those around you, members of your cabinet, constituents, stakeholders, whoever they are, embrace the challenge that they represent and embrace the different mode of thinking. Embrace a different set of circumstances or unique perspective. You know, yours is not the only perspective that matters. So embrace those challenges. And I guess if I may, I would add one other. I think a really important one for him to pick up on is, We own our mistakes. Admit when you're wrong. Admit when you had a gaffe. Admit when you struggled or you stumbled. You know, when you're talking about putting bleach inside the system to rid someone of COVID that was a mistake. Come back a day later and say, Boy, I really botched that one. There's an authenticity and a relatability that I think all humans can rally around and align upon when someone does something really stupid or says something that's It doesn't make any sense or something that's off putting. They come back the next day and say, Man, I blew that. We can connect on that because I've made the same mistake. Yeah.

There's something beautiful about that. And I love those three and they make sense. And I think we all want to be led by people that we can relate to. We want to be led by people that we respect. We want to be led by people who can own up and say, God, I totally, like I screwed up, I effed up, like God, I'll do better. But when we see leaders do the opposite, I mean, it literally puts such a wedge between us and them and trust plummets.

Well, it's. Wow, man. It's almost as we planned that. I, I believe to secure trust as a leader, there are two requirements, authenticity and relatability. When I, when I can see that my boss is being straight up authentic, not pretending to be something he's not. He's, he is. When there's a, when there's a problem, he's open. He's, that he's concerned about the problem. He's just authentic. and the relatability component is he can empathize that I might have an aging parent or he can empathize that I tried to be on time this morning, but the highway traffic was so bad I was 20 minutes late. He can empathize and relate to those things. If we can have an authentic and relatable leader in front of us, trust almost naturally ensues. So for me, that's the recipe.

I love it. I've got two questions before we wrap up. Sure. And this first question comes with a bit of a challenge, but I'll start soft. So what's the end game with the 10 whis in terms of we're sitting having a cup of tea in 35 years and we're both a little bit older, a lot grayer, hopefully a bit wiser. And you're like, James, holy shit, like I did this. This blows my mind. What's success in terms of humanity with the 10 Wees?

What a great question, man. So, one of the biggest, the biggest unintended surprise byproduct of putting this book out is the impact it's had on my personal life. And not my own, not just my own, rather. I've heard it from, at this point, I can't even tell you how many readers that the principles are not, they're not just a work thing. They're not applicable only in the workplace. They are really life principles. And when I made that pivot, because I found myself and I felt a bit of a hypocrite, I felt like I was a hypocrite because I would lead a certain, once I developed these principles and started to evangelize them and kind of preach them, and they were who I am and the leader that I am. And this is, this is how, this is my legacy, my leadership legacy. And then I would go home and not be the same guy with my parents, with my family, with my friends, with my loved ones. And it felt hollow. And I thought, well, that's not authentic and that's not how you gather trust with just because you're outside of the workplace shouldn't be different. And it all came to a head one day, and I don't know if you can relate to this story, but in the US, you know, we go grocery shopping, we put all of our groceries in this grocery basket, we go out to the car, we load the groceries into the car, and there's usually a little spot that you can take that grocery cart back to and kind of like a corral that where you park the carts, or you can walk it all the way back to. To the building. Well, one of these days, I. I was loading my groceries in my truck, and. And like a lot of people do, not proud of it, but this is the true story. I took that grocery cart and I just put it in the spot next to me, in the parking spot next to me, not in the Corral, not up against the building. and I started to, I backed out and started to pull away and I could see that cart slowly rolling. And it wasn't going to roll out and it wasn't a danger, but I could just, I could see it in my rearview mirror. And I thought, you hypocrite, you're the guy that's talking about we do the right thing always. You know, leaving that cart where it is is not the right thing. Not the biggest, most consequential decision in the whole world. Right? But it was a, it was for me, it was symbolic of, if you're gonna do this, do it and do it full throttle, not when it's convenient and avoiding it when it's not convenient. So that conversation between you and I 30 years from now is about the impact that I've had and these principles have had on mankind, not the workplace, not leaders. We need more we in the world, man. Social media has put this light on us, me, my, myself and I. that I think is a slippery slope to certainly not a conducive environment for building teams and bonding with those around you. But it also inherently, it forces us to shine a light on ourselves instead of shining a light on others. And that's where the greatest fulfillment in all of existence can come is helping someone else, whether it's raising a child, helping a friend, helping someone in need, helping a stranger in need. you know, that is what I would hope would be the legacy that I, that I leave and certainly be the conversation that we have is the impact it's had much broader than it, than it originally began, which is just the workplace.

It's beautiful. I really love that. And what I do love about that is that I feel like your work quite similar to Stephen Covey. It transcends business, transcends sport, and it goes into family. You know, Stephen went into the seven habits of highly effective families and highly effective teenagers. I feel like the 10 whys is going to do the same. So I look forward to that conversation in 35 years.

I'm going to hold you to it.

Done. Yeah, I'll come to Florida. We'll catch up.

You have an invitation, my friend. Absolutely.

I love it. Now, one final question I always ask this of every guest at the end. So I want you to imagine that you and I will fast forward many years into the future. You're highly aware that it's your last day here on Earth. Someone very young that you care deeply about comes into the room and says, Kyle, how do I go about leading my life on purpose? What would you say to them?

Be you. Do not be somebody else. Do not try to be somebody else. Care as little as possible about what others have to say about you. Be yourself, your authentic self, warts and all. and if that's not enough for those around you, not enough for your friend group, not enough for your company, not enough for the team that you're on, find the new company, find the new team, find a different friend group. Anytime we were put in a situation where we feel as if we have to portray something that we're not, that's all, that's inauthenticity. And there's a short shelf life for that. You know, in business, we talk about fake it till you make it. It's an expression used a lot. And I think that is the worst, the worst ism. to approach our work life because it reeks of inauthenticity. And when you do make it, quote unquote, make it, are you supposed to behave differently now? And what message does that send to those around you that you were faking it this whole time? And, and there's no sincerity or genuine connection to be had when, when you've been exposed in that way. So I, I think, and I would have loved to have heard this advice myself, you know, 30 years ago. I'm not sure I would have listened candidly, but I do believe it's absolutely essential in all facets of our existence. Just be yourself. Just be yourself.

That's so powerful, Kyle. I'm going to share that tonight. Actually, when Finn, my little eight-year-old boy, when he gets home tonight, we're sitting around the dinner table.

I'm going to say I learned something today, Finn, and I want to share it with you.

And I just think that's really powerful. You just made my day, man. Thank you. Thank you. That's very cool. Thank you. Thank you. It's been amazing. I know this is not our last conversation. We'll have many more. And I want to just challenge the listener, the reader right now. Let's change your life, your team, your family, your work and your career by getting the book. Begin with we. It's in the show notes right now. Get familiar with those principles. Start to live them and breathe them. If you want to take it to the next level, get in touch with Kyle. I'll put his details below. Bring him in. He'll speak at your conference. Even better, if you want to go deeper and go to the next level, He'll come and work with your team. He excels in working with executive leadership teams, senior leadership teams, and sometimes right into that middle management as well. So Kyle, thank you for the work you do. Please continue to do it. I look forward to seeing you again soon.

James, thank you for the opportunity. You're doing really important work, man, and I feel privileged to be a part of it. So the thanks goes to you.

Thank you. The Lead On Purpose podcast is sponsored by NZ Mortgages. Learn more at nzmortgages.co.nz. Thanks for tuning in to Lead On Purpose. If you find this episode valuable, please share it with one person that you think might benefit from it. And if you're serious about leveling up, please make sure you're subscribed to the show and continue to lead your life on purpose.