Mental Toughness Is a Skill, Not a Gift with Dr Braden Brown

Today, I'm joined by Dr. Braden Brown, Director of Mental Health at BYU and a mental performance expert who works with the most high-performing athletes. We're going to explore how to handle pressure, self-doubt, all the things that you and I deal with on a day-to-day basis. We're also going to unpack what separates some of the world's greatest performers from everyone else. Let's dive in. Dr. Braden Brown, a huge welcome to the Habits of High Performers Podcast. How are you doing?

I'm doing great, James. Thanks so much for having me on.

It's an absolute pleasure to have the director of mental health at BYU here, someone who's a mental performance doctor for high performers. I mean, what an honor. And I know I'm going to learn a ton, and I know the listener is going to take away so much. So, can I start with something very simple? What is mental health in your opinion?

That's a great question. I think mental health is kind of core to everything that we do as human beings. I was trained in the biopsychosocial spiritual framework of human functioning. And so I kind of always have viewed the biological side, the physical side, the spiritual side, the mental and emotional side, all kind of one intertwined, intricately interconnected system. But I think just from the mental side, it's mostly just kind of how we navigate, relate to, and respond to thoughts, feelings, and emotions.

And we have quite a bit of influence over that, I imagine.

For sure. Yes, both internal influences and then external influences on every single one of those things.

Beautiful. Now, I haven't heard anyone describe their approach the way you did. I love the fact that there's a spiritual component. In my 20s, I probably would have been like, just give me the skills I need. Let's move on. I just turned 40, and the last probably 5 or 7 years, it's been very much like there's so much more out there and there is a spiritual component. So, I'm really delighted to hear that you've done that. Is that more a recent thing that's been developing in your sphere, or has that been around for centuries?

So I would say the biopsychosocial model has been around for a number of years, and that was George, George Engel who came in and kind of disrupted the, the biomedical model of health and functioning. Because what he was finding in a lot of his patients that he was working with is, yes, there was the kind of biological etiology of disease and illness, but there was also a huge psychosocial component that was contributing And oftentimes exacerbating some of those physical ailments. And then a number of years later, a research group added the spirituality side to it. So kind of changed the BPS acronym to BPSS. And I would say that a number of practitioners have adopted that framework. I would still say it's fairly young in its adoption, but I'm aware of a number of individuals that kind of incorporate the spirituality component into their work with the people that Hey, James here.

I wanted to take a quick moment to let you know about something. Look, I get asked to deliver keynotes and workshops for teams and companies all over the world, from London to Antarctica, from America to Australasia, from armies to small businesses to large corporates to sports teams. But I go in and deliver keynotes around the mindset of high performers, around the habits of high performers, about how we navigate change. If you would like me to come and speak to your team or speak at your conference or deliver a bespoke workshop, please get in touch with my team. caroline@jjlaughlin.com will be able to help. I'll also make sure that we put that in the show notes. I love it. And tell me a little bit more about what that looks like for someone that comes to work with you and you bring the spiritual component into it. What's that actually like?

Yeah, so I'm a little bit blessed here at BYU because it's a school that's owned and operated by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And so, spirituality is already kind of baked into that big religious component, but there's actually quite a few student athletes that attend this school that are not members of the LDS faith. They have some sort of religious affiliation and some, some don't. And so sometimes there is that religious connotation to spirituality. And, but the way that I kind of make sense of it is just your, your purpose and how you find meaning in life. And sometimes that's through a higher power or some form of deity. Sometimes that's through nature. Sometimes that's through karma and just kind of putting good energy out into the world and getting good energy back. But really, it's just kind of how do I make sense of my purpose here on this earth? And where do I turn to find meaning about life and suffering and all those things?

That's awesome. And Braden, for those that avoid, push away, ignore, reject the spiritual component, is there potentially a consequence for them from a performance standpoint?

That's another great question. Um, I mean, I think that if we neglect any of the core components that kind of make us who we are as holistic human beings, that we're not fully tapping into every single resource that we have available at our disposal. So it'd be kind of the equivalent of if I'm not tapping into some of these spiritual components or things that bring me a sense of purpose and meaning, that might be you know, the equivalent of not doing, you know, extra sprints or doing as much in the weight room. And so I'm kind of leaving stuff out on the table. And now, is it going to make the, you know, all the difference in the world? Maybe not. But will it contribute to some extent to what you're doing from a performance perspective? I also think that for sure, as long as you're consistently tapping into all 4 of those domains in some capacity, that's the best way to kind of reach your fullest potential.

That's awesome. And, could we look at those 4 domains and maybe is there a tool that you could say or a practice, a ritual that someone could actually step into and try that could help them develop those quadrants effectively? Yeah.

So, one of the things that I do with the athletes I work with or any client that I work with is I kind of just write them down on a whiteboard and just say, okay, so the physical side of your health and functioning, And, we go through things like sleep, physical activity, nutrition, that sort of thing. And then, mental health, we kind of go through emotion regulation, things that they do to help with kind of more of the mental side. And then, we talk about relationships, things that are going well or maybe not going well in relationships. And then, we talk about the spiritual side as well. And then, we kind of— I have them go through and list, okay, what are some of the things that they want to improve or work on, or where is there room to add more into that specific domain that they want to be a little bit more intentional about that might be lacking?

That's brilliant. To me, it's common sense, but not common practice, what you're saying. And I firmly believe in holistic high performance. So, for years, I've geeked out on what is high performance. And as a kid, all I wanted to do was become the world champion in drumming. So, very specific, very similar actually to marching band drumming in America. And so, I wanted to become the world solo drumming champion. And at 13 years of age, I won my first title. And I started going, okay, it's just about hard work. It's just about drive. It's just, that's what it's all about. In my mid-20s, I experienced burnout. And I mean, I haven't lifted a set of drumsticks in 7 or 8 years. It went from passion to something I just am totally burnt out with doing. So, when I quit drums, I thought, can someone perform really well, maybe even the top of their game on field, And still have a great life off-field and be a high performer off-field. So, I went through divorce. I had a strong relationship with alcohol. I certainly had zero connection with spirituality, and it didn't feel good. And so, that was my mission. That's why I wrote my book was like, can people do it? And the answer from my research and experience is yes, 100%. From your end, do you feel it's possible to be a high performer on-field and off-field?

100%. And I feel like most of the athletes that I work with, they kind of are just high performers in both realms. And sometimes that's what also contributes to some of their stress and anxiety is because there's that constant pressure and expectation to constantly be this high-performing individual. But I would say that it is 100% possible to be high performer on the field, court, whatever your domain of of play is, and then also in life, in business, in whatever other ventures you're kind of involved in.

Awesome. And that stress, that societal expectation, even the self-expectation, I've got to be the best and I've got to win. And what's the best way to manage that? How can we actually navigate that? Because some athletes crumble under that, and some business leaders and entrepreneurs crumble as well. How do we manage our own expectations to always be the best? Or the expectations of others?

Yeah, this is a conversation I have pretty frequently with the athletes I work with, is I actually think that it's, it's kind of a blessing and a curse where I have yet to work with a high-performing athlete that does not have super high standards for themselves and are bordering, bordering on being full-blown perfectionists. Um, and so it's a good thing because it kind of helps you be really hyper-focused on developing a certain skill set and to be all in on something that not a lot of people are willing to do just because of the sacrifice and the commitment that is required to do it. But then at some point in time, it can become a detriment because now it feels like an obligation or a chore versus remembering why I did it to begin with. And so a lot of my conversations go back to, you know, what is keeping you from just not doing this anymore. And that helps tap into their love for what it is that they're doing. And so, can we operate from a place of, I'm doing this because I get to do it and it's something that's a privilege and something that I enjoy versus something that's an obligation or something that I kind of have this avoidance towards?

I love the language shift there. And often, I think emotionally, we can be shifted by language. And, I've got to do the dishes. I've got to go to work. I've got to take the kids to school. That is a chore in terms of how we position it, whereas I get to take the kids to school. How lucky am I? I get to do those dishes. How lucky am I? I get to eat on those plates. It's just a shift in words, but yet it has a massive impact on how we feel, right?

For sure. Yeah. One of the common phrases I use is the way we view the things we do changes how we do the things we do. And that's one of the examples I use is if we view— and so I preface all this by saying, and if you learn a little bit more about me and my background, I didn't get into this work because I had it all figured out mentally and emotionally. So I played college football here at BYU for 4 years. And in fact, most of the people that I played here with that you talk to and they find out that I'm the person who's now helping people with the mental side of the sport, they're like, wait, dude, you're helping people with mental stuff? Like, how does that work?

You know?

And then my response to them is, you know, people can change and evolve. And I'm just, I'm trying to help them learn all the ways and to do the things that I did not very great. And so, learn how to do things exactly opposite how I did them. That's beautiful. But that's—

why did you—

yeah.

So, what happened? Can we go back there for a second? Because you brought that up. I'd love to hear more.

Sure.

So, you were obviously very talented as an athlete to be playing at that level. Where did that all get to? Where did your career pinnacle end up?

Yeah. So, I started, and here's another thing, we don't have to get too much in the weeds in this, but I think it's important for listeners to understand that there's a lot of sayings in the sports psych world that I actually kind of push back on. And one of them is this whole notion of, you know, if you don't believe in yourself, no one else will. I can attest 100% that I would not be in the position I'm in right now if it was all based off my belief in myself and my abilities, because a lot of the times it was kind of the complete opposite. I felt like an imposter. I felt like I didn't belong, even though I was a full scholarship athlete at BYU. I looked around and thought, man, they recruited the wrong guy. I don't think I'm ever going to play a down of football here, which I think is totally normal as humans to have those moments of self-doubt. And imposter syndrome. And I think that's something that needs to get talked about more because I deal with athletes on the other side where it's, they think that there's something wrong with them for thinking those things or feeling those feelings. And in my mind, I'm like, I still haven't met someone who hasn't experienced that, at least to some degree. And so I ended up being able to start 41 games here at BYU, and then I got invited to the NFL Combine, and then I was picked up as an undrafted free agent by the St. Louis Rams. And because of a number of injuries that were lingering my whole career, ended up having to get back surgery. And I could have come back and kept trying to play. But at that point in time, I was so mentally, physically, and emotionally done with sports that I decided to retire and kind of had no idea what was next. I thought I was going to go into coaching just because I was a 3-sport athlete my whole life and loved the idea of being able to work with young people and help them develop into better versions of themselves. Because I had so many great coaches that helped do that for me. And then, I had a couple conversations and realized actually getting into the coaching profession was probably not the thing I wanted to do just because of the commitment and sacrifice. And, it was my wife at the time who brought up the idea of going more the mental health route. And, that's when I really kind of took a step back and thought, that actually is kind of a cool way to be a coach in people's lives and help people develop into better versions of themselves but kind of in a different arena.

Yeah.

And so how, like, every time I get to tell this story, I think through everything that happened and transpired and just the journey it took for me to get to where I am right now. And it's still unbelievable because there's stuff that I did that I never thought I would be able to do, like get a master's or PhD, all that stuff. And just all the relationships that I formed along the way and people that believed in me and supported me. It's just, it's an awesome thing and I'm super grateful.

That's awesome. Well done. And it's incredible just to see that, you know, when you finish sport in the way you did, that You've stayed in the game and you've just shifted lanes, and now you're helping others achieve what they're trying to achieve. I want to ask you some specific athlete-related questions, but the person that's listening, if you're not an athlete, this absolutely pertains to you in business, in life, et cetera. What's the, in your mind, the most powerful mental skills in sport? What are the tool or a mental skills tactic that is one of the most powerful in sport?

So, I would say the skill of psychological flexibility. And really what that means is, can I accept whatever has happened or that might happen and redirect my focus back to right here, right now? What's the most important action that I can commit to that's in alignment with what I'm trying to accomplish or some sort of goal or value that I have. I think that's something I spend so much time with athletes working on is noticing, accepting, and then redirecting my focus to what's the most important thing for me right now in this moment.

I love it. And when I think of you saying that, I want to explore what is psychological rigidity or psychological inflexibility? What would that feel like if someone was experiencing that or doing that? What would their world feel or look like?

So in the, in the ACT world, it's this concept of just being hooked to different thoughts, feelings, emotions, where we're so attached to them that we let them dictate what we do or what we don't do, instead of us being the observer of those feelings, thoughts, and emotions, and being able to kind of choose what we do with bringing those along sometimes. And so one of the actual interventions that I use is I'll have my athletes put their hands over their face like this, and I'll ask them what that— just sit with what that feels like. And if I had to ask them to go throughout their day with their hands like this, how that would feel. And as you can imagine, there's a lot of discomfort, right? Because it's like, I can't really see, it just feels all up in my face, and I just can't really focus because there's just a lot going on. But then I'll say, okay, what if we just dropped our hands down to the side and just let them fall wherever they may? And we just allow them to be exactly as they are, and then we decide what we want to do throughout the day. And for me, that's kind of an experiential way to help them understand the concept of cognitive diffusion, which is just because I think something or feel something doesn't mean that I have to hold on to it or attach myself to it. I can allow it to be a part of my experience and still choose what I want to do. Um, and sometimes just bringing some of those uncomfortable thoughts, feelings along for the ride.

And is that similar to like, um, Acceptance and commitment therapy. Accept the situation, accept that things might not be perfect, and then commit to doing what you know you can do to move forward.

For sure. That's based very heavily in acceptance commitment therapy.

I love that. I mean, these tools, we should be talking about these every day of the week. Our kids should be learning about these. Businesses should be bringing people like you in and paying you to say, hey, can you give these tools to our team? Because At the end of the day, whether you've got a ball in your hand or a pen in your hand, like, it doesn't matter. You're performing and you feel pressure and things don't always go right. Having a tool like that is phenomenal.

Well, can I share a quick example since you brought up kids? So, I have 3 children. I have 11-year-old boy-girl twins and then a 4-year-old girl. And this was a couple years ago. So, I think my twins were probably 9 years old and we went to a restaurant. And it's one of those things where I'm like, okay, I have an opportunity as a parent to give my child the blessing of allowing her to do something uncomfortable that she's never done before. And so I gave her the order to walk into the place with to tell the person that this is what we want, and then she was gonna go do it herself and bring out the food. And in her mind, she was like, wait, what? I have to go in there by myself and do it without you? And I said, yeah. She's like, but that's so scary. And I said, yeah, it probably feels that way because you've never done it before, but I'll be sitting right out here in the car. You'll be able to see me the whole time. And if there's something goes wrong, you can come out here and, and talk to me and I'll kind of help talk you through it. So she walks in and she's just like so hesitant and tentative as she's walking to the door, opens it like all kind of scared and nervous. And then 5 minutes transpires and I see her burst out the door, walks out just shoulders back, kind of almost like skipping out with the food in hand. And so, she gets in the car and, you know, dad mode, we have to process everything. So, I'm like, so, how did that go? And she goes, well, first, I was so scared. I didn't even know if I could go in and do it. And I was just so nervous. And I said, and then what happened? And then, I just, I told them what I wanted to order and they said, okay. And then, I gave them the credit card and they gave me my food. And then, I realized, hey, that actually wasn't that bad. And so, she came out and I'm like, that's such a microcosm for life.

Mm-hmm.

And what we all experience is Of course, it feels a little unnerving because it's not something that we're familiar with. But the only way to get familiar with something is to go outside of our comfort zone and bring some of those feelings along for the ride and do it anyway. And then we learn that just because we have a feeling doesn't mean that that gets to dictate what we do or what we don't do. And that was a perfect example of just that.

That's amazing. I love that. And I love that you created the opportunity because some parents would go, nah, I'll take care of this. You're too young. You're 9. Like, that's not going to happen. That's fantastic. And the fact is she's going to be more willing to, I imagine, try new things and new sports and getting on a stage and speaking in front of her class because she knows that she'll feel nervous. She'll do it anyway and she'll feel great at the end of it.

Sure.

I love that.

And I have plenty of moments where I don't do it that way as a parent too. So, I'm not trying to be that guy. That was just one of the highlights of my parenthood.

No, well done. I love it. What do you think is one of the most underrated ways that we can improve performance?

I think being intentional about working on mental skills. So, we realize so much, and it's been fascinating for me to be a player here at BYU 15 years ago to now kind of observing how sports science does things now with the football guys, and everything is so data-driven. And I was actually just working with one of our football guys recently, and he asked, You know, is there a way that we can track this mental performance stuff? Because when I'm in the weight room, I can see my weights going up or going down. I can see my power output. Like everything is measured. And in the mental realm, like it would be helpful to kind of see, okay, doing this output or input kind of results in this output sort of thing. But I think that it's the intentionality behind it makes all the difference because these guys are told every single day what, what lifts they need to do, why they need to do it. But then when it comes to the mental side, I think a lot of them just don't really understand how it works or how to implement it. And I think that unless you're really deliberate and intentional about it, just like with any skill you develop, it's really hard to, to, you know, acquire that skill.

Yeah.

So I think that being intentional about developing some of the mental skills like mindfulness, Like resetting after a mistake, like skills to manage kind of those acute onset of nervousness that shows up before a game and how to handle it effectively or before a routine. I think those are some of the things that end up making sometimes small differences. But as we know, in performance, small differences sometimes make all the difference.

Absolutely. You look like— you look at someone like Rory McIlroy, who had been trying to win the Masters for a long time. And really, it came down to psychological and emotional skills that allowed him to navigate those pressure moments. Now, you mentioned a couple of tools there, mental skills. I'd love to look at a few of those. So, mindfulness, let's chat about that. So, what might be the benefit for someone to become more mindful and actually have a mindful practice? Yeah.

So, kind of going back to a comment you made, if I would've been 20 years old as a Division 1 football player and someone came into me talking about mindfulness, I immediately would have rolled my eyes and been like, what is this guy talking about? You know, this is kind of woo-woo stuff that is just, you know, I don't even know. It's not for me sort of thing. But when you actually look at what mindfulness is, it's kind of going back to what we were talking about with psychological flexibility. And I kind of merged the two together with that definition. But mindfulness really is the awareness that arises from paying attention.

Hmm.

In the present moment, non-judgmentally. And so we talk about all the time, like, be where your feet are, be present, all those things. And yes, that's kind of the, the goal of mindfulness. But the challenge is we have a brain that's not really wired to just be fully present at all times, which is a good thing, but it can also be a not good thing when it comes to performance. And so I think that one of the ways we can train mindfulness is just bringing our awareness to sensory experiences in the present moment. Like, how does my butt feel in this chair right now? Is there like a mole on my arm that I can really look at and pay attention to and notice the texture and the color? Anything that just brings our mind to what's happening right here, right now is a way to train mindfulness. Or in more of like a practical sense, at practice, you know, with my football guys, I'll have a number of them, they'll send me a text before practice of, okay, these are the 3 things I really want to be intentional about today. And so now they've given themselves something that they can, regardless of what happened last play or what might happen, This is what I'm keeping my focus on, strong hands, firing off the ball, and finishing the play sort of thing. That's brilliant.

And what's the danger in a super high achiever who kind of sets high goals for themselves going, hey, Brayden, here's my 10 things I want to be intentional about today in practice. What's the danger in that?

So, I love that question because I would ask them that question. So, what do you think might be the challenge of trying to focus on 10 different things? Or what's your confidence level that you can accomplish all 10 of those things on a scale of 1 to 10? 10 being super confident, 1 being not confident. And if they say anything less than an 8, then we gotta narrow it down because it's one of my favorite quotes is, you see a lot, you see a little, you see a little, you see a lot.

Mm-hmm.

Because if we're trying to focus on too many things at once, it's just, it's a recipe for fractured attention. And that's where we get in trouble is when our attention is trying to be on too many different things at the same time instead of 1 or 2 things. that we can fully commit to right here, right now. And that's going to give us our best chance to accomplish whatever that thing is that we're trying to accomplish. Yeah.

And the listener can take that on board right now and go, look, I have 10 major goals for the day. Well, maybe there should be 3 or 4. Which ones do you feel confident that you can smash and that are most influential in the outcome you want? So, I think that's—

So, can I add one more thing to that too? I would have them say, I would ask them if they played golf. And I would imagine maybe the people listening that there are some people that like to play golf, maybe not. It's maybe it's a love-hate relationship like it is with me. But I would challenge them. I would say, okay, go out the next time you play golf. I want you to have 10 things that you think about before every single shot that you hit. When you're standing over the ball, I want you to think of 10 things and go through every single one of them before you swing. And then we, we'd, uh, kind of debrief and see how that goes.

Terribly.

My hypothesis, My hypothesis is it would not go very great versus, okay, I want you to think of 2 things maximum every swing. Just fully commit to 2 things that are going to be most helpful for you and then compare the difference. Maybe we should do a study on that, James. We should get a group of people that want to go do it and just see how that works out.

I'm in. Let's do it. Honestly, that'd be fascinating. And I mean, it just makes sense that if you simplify things, the fact is it could be a more sophisticated outcome because you're not Creating this complex list of things to focus your attention on. Yeah, it's mad. Now, you talked about nervousness earlier, the onset of nervousness. All of us feel nervous. I speak on a stage 2 or 3 times a week. I've been doing that for a long time, but I still get nervous. But I know how to manage that, and I know that it's not a bad thing and it actually helps me. But there has been times younger in life when those nerves were crippling and they ruined my performance. What's your advice to the person who feels the onset of nerves? What's a skill that they could actually lean into?

Such a great question because I wish I would have had someone I could talk to about this when I was going through my playing career. And even now, like when I go do speaking in front of groups, I still get that physiological response. And I've tried to practice what I preach and I try to reframe it as excitement. And this is just my body getting myself ready to go do something that's, you know, energizing and exciting. And there's, there's actually some really fascinating research on that. Some researchers at Harvard looked at the difference between excitement and nervousness from a physiological perspective. And what they found is there's really no way to differentiate between the two. So the question becomes, okay, so how do I know in this moment if I'm nervous or excited, if I'm— what's happening in my body is kind of the same experience? And then kind of what they found in their research is that it's It's the, our cognitive appraisal or how we perceive it. So if I perceive it as, oh my, I'm so nervous, then that kind of elicits more of an avoidance and threat response versus, oh, I'm excited. Now that's kind of more of an opportunity challenge response.

Mm-hmm.

And so even just kind of reframing it as like, this is an exciting thing I'm about to go do. I have athletes that push back on that all the time. It's like, okay, I don't buy that. Like, I, I can't reframe it as excitement. And so what I have them do is I just have them just be very objective about what's happening and just noticing some of the sensations. Okay, I notice my heart's beating really fast. I notice that I'm sweating a little bit more. I notice that my breathing feels a lot more shallow because it's one of those things where— and it's, I know it's a cheesy bumper sticker, but there's actually a lot of validity to it in the research that if we name what we're experiencing, that gives us more power over it.

Yeah, it reduces the impact of it on us, right, from a physiological standpoint.

For sure. One of my favorite quotes that I use is Dumbledore from Harry Potter, and I hope I got some Harry Potter fans.

Hell yeah.

Because it's one of the only, one of the only book series that I've ever read, but it's a great book series. Um, and sorry for the spoiler alerts for people that haven't read it and haven't seen the movie, but at the end of the first book, Harry had just defeated Professor Quirrell, who was incognito Lord Voldemort, and he's, you know, the wicked powerful wizard that no one wants to say his name because if even saying his name, bad things might happen. And so, they're in the hospital wing. Harry's talking to Ron and Hermione and Dumbledore, and he goes to ask, what about Lord Vold— and before he finishes, Harry and Ron are like, Harry, don't say his name. And then Dumbledore steps in, and man, I still get goosebumps when I tell the story because I just, I love the wisdom of Dumbledore. He says, it's important to use the proper name for things, Harry. Fear of a name increases the fear of the thing itself. That's the same thing with our feelings and our emotions and our thoughts is we think that by avoiding them because they're uncomfortable, that's what's going to help us kind of not feel those things or experience those things. But it's actually the opposite effect. Now we're giving them more power and control over us versus saying, you know what, this is— maybe if you can't learn to view it as excitement, maybe, okay, this is nervousness. Like, I am feeling a little bit nervous right now because I'm like, I'm about to go talk in front of, you know, 1,000 people and I might stumble over my words and they'll think I'm an idiot and whatever else. But even just creating that separation, now it's something that I can work with versus something that's me.

That's so beautiful. Thanks for sharing that. Dumbledore is great. And Larry King. So, I've been running a podcast for years and obviously looked at people who I think are great. I thought Larry King was one of the all-time greatest interviewers on the planet. And he shared something many years ago, and he said it was his first day ever broadcasting. And he went to this radio broadcaster, and the broadcaster said, look, your surname, it's not going to work. It's too— the words they use is too ethnic. And he says, we're going to change your surname. So he flicks through the newspaper, the classified ads, and sees King's Liquor Store. He says, there we go. You're going to be Larry King. So Larry's getting ready for his first ever broadcast on live air radio. And it's— you turn the volume down yourself and you start speaking yourself. There's no other editors. It's you in the booth. Many years ago. And he says, James, I'm in there and I'm nervous as hell. And turns— starts turning it down and no words come out and he can't speak. And so he turns the music back up and he goes, geez, I'm so nervous. So he turns it down again. He's about to speak for the first time ever on air. Nothing comes out. Turns it up. The broadcast lead comes into the studio, grabs him by the neck.

Oh, no.

Throws him up against the wall and says, this is broadcast. You need to speak. And so, he turns it back down and goes, well, folks, I'm Larry King. This is my first time ever speaking on radio and I am so nervous. And he said, when he actually labeled it, I am nervous, and he told thousands of people, maybe millions, all of a sudden, he was like, oh, I feel a lot better. I don't feel perfect, but I actually feel I can handle this. And, from then on in, he said it was much easier, the fact that he told people, I am nervous. So, it backs up what you're saying from a research standpoint. That's his real lived experience.

Yeah. I love that. Such a great example. And, I feel like the more real examples we can share of that— actually, so, I have a PowerPoint slide deck that I share with athlete groups and also non-athlete groups too because So many times people think high performance and mental toughness is all about, you know, being fearless and never experiencing doubt, never having any sort of negative thoughts and feelings and emotions. And I found quite a substantial list of a lot of really, really elite-level athletes kind of completely debunking that. And one of my favorite interviews ever is Novak Djokovic on 60 Minutes a few years back. And the interview starts off by saying, you know, one of the things I find most fascinating about you is your mental strength, which I think is your greatest gift. And then Novak cuts him off. He goes, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, let me correct you. It's, it's not a gift. It's a skill that I practice. And then he goes on to say, I don't, I don't like this mindset of you just, you can't have nerves or doubt, or you just think positive thoughts because it's impossible to do that because you're a human being. And then he also, he went on to say in that interview, the greatest battle is within. You have your nerves and your doubts. I feel it before every single match. And I just, I love when the best in the world admit to everybody else that they're just, they're human just like everyone else. But then he also says is that I've learned how to not stay stuck in that moment for too long. So I allow myself to experience whatever it is, the feeling, the emotion. And you've seen Novak play sometimes, maybe you haven't. Sometimes—

Live in Australian Open just a few years ago. It was just wonderful.

Yeah. Sometimes he'll get angry and he'll, you know, smash a racket or something, but that's kind of his way of releasing that emotion so that he can reset and refocus on the next point.

Yeah, and Aryna Sabalenka is the same. People talk about her anger and I'm like, look at her results. She's number 1 and has been number 1 for 80-something weeks or more. There's a reason she's number 1. And, it's the fact that she can actually get unstuck as you say. When you think of Djokovic, maybe Kobe, maybe MJ, What are some of the traits that separate the greats from everyone else?

I love that you asked that question because I actually made a post on this recently. And I got to give a shout-out to George Mumford because he's the one that so gratefully and willingly shared this with the world because he actually had the opportunity to work with Kobe, Shaq, MJ, Phil Jackson as a part of 8 NBA championship-winning teams. And someone asked him that on a podcast and they said, what separated Kobe, Shaq, and MJ from from everybody else? And he said it was 3 things: they were humble, they were hungry, and they were coachable. And he said the thing about MJ that stood out to him more so than anyone else is that he showed up to every practice like he was still trying to make the team.

That's brilliant.

And he said, I want you to think about that for a second. He's the best player in the world, 6-time NBA champion and MVP, and he still shows up to practice with the same intentionality and the same commitment to hone his craft and refine his skill and be coachable and open to learn.

Isn't it funny that you just said that? Like, so, hungry, humble, coachable. Like, every single one of us on this planet can do all of those things. They're fully within our reach. So, if we want to be great at whatever it is, sport, parenting, relationships, wealth, business, doesn't matter what it is, Those 3 things are what's going to help us become world-class. So, being humble, it's interesting. A lot of the All Blacks that I've worked with over the years, which is New Zealand's top rugby stars, they're ridiculously humble. I mean, it's so humbling just to be in their presence. They're the world's greatest, yet they're wanting to pull the chair out for you and they're wanting to get the— I'll order the coffee for you and let me do the dishes. I'm like, dude, no. You're a legend. But they're so humble. Hungry. Sam Whitelock, dear friend of mine, who is the most capped All Black of all time, 153 caps. And he's now retired. But for him, he was always there earlier than everyone. He's the most senior player on the team, there before everyone. He's the last one to leave. He sweeps up the changing rooms. He's always looking for a 1% way to get better. He joins business leadership groups. to see how he can get better as a leader in sport. How many athletes do that? That's that hunger piece. And then the coachable. I mean, he's coming to some little Irish man and he's willing to listen to me. Like, amazing. He's coachable and wants to— what's one little tiny thing I could pull from James? What's one tiny thing I could pull from my other coach? So, those 3 things.

Yeah.

That's amazing that Mumford said that. And weird that you brought him up because I literally just ordered 6 books Bob Rutella, one of his books, and then Mumford. That's another one that just literally came this week. So, I'm looking forward to reading it after you've brought that up.

Yeah, that's a great read. And he takes a really deep dive into it because his whole thing is mindfulness. And that's kind of what he brought to the Bulls and the Lakers. And you listen to some of the interviews that MJ's had and that Kobe's had, and he's speaking the language of mindfulness. This idea of what I try to do is be still and Just accept that things come and go, emotions come and go. And what I try to do is accept them all, I embrace them all, and then I get to decide what I do with those thoughts and those emotions versus being controlled by them. And that's just the epitome and the essence of mindfulness. It's such great stuff.

That's amazing. Yeah, well, I had, uh, 3 years ago, 2 years ago, I had the mother of mindfulness on the podcast, and her name is Dr. Ellen Langer. And Okay. She has got the most research pieces and peer-reviewed studies. She's from Harvard, probably 82 now, but just fascinating. She brought kind of mindfulness to the West and unbelievable the way she looks at it in a very simple form. Can I ask you, how is greatness built?

You ask so many great questions and I love it. And it puts me on the spot because there's no prep to go. before a podcast, but there is— to all the listeners, this is just off the cuff. No prep.

We're just having a yarn.

We're just having a conversation. So these aren't just like pre-written out answers. But I would say it's the ability and the willingness to continue showing up and being consistent when things are going well, when things are going hard, and when things are just kind of stagnant. But I think it's the consistency and the intentionality behind pursuing something that is meaningful to you is kind of how greatness is built. And it's not very— everyone thinks that it has to be like this sexy, glamorous thing. Well, I recently heard an interview from Gabby Douglas recently, and she was saying, you know, you look at a guy like Noah Lyles and he comes off as like this, you know, grandiose character and he's got great energy and charisma. But she's like, you would be so shocked to know that his life is so boring. Like, what he does every single day of his life is basically the exact same thing every day, and it's just boring.

I believe it. I absolutely believe it. I mean, even in the business world, I was running an event for real estate agents, and one of them— and they're all for the same company— one of them was making, I think, $3.4 million a year. In commission. And the rest were making in the hundreds and some in the low $1 million. Well, why is he making $3.4 and other people are making $200K? So I get him on stage and I says, dude, walk me through your Monday. And he's like, I get up at 5:00 AM, I meditate, I journal, I write my intentions, I do a cold plunge, I work out, I have breakfast with my family, phone's still off. When I get to the office, I make 100 calls and I leave the office at 1 minute to 5. I get home, And I hang with the family right when they go to bed. I debrief on my day and set my intentions for tomorrow. I said, cool, Tuesday. He went, same. Okay, Wednesday? Same. Thursday? Every day of the week, Monday to Friday, same thing. I said, man, do you know what success is in this realm? Boring. You've got the most boring schedule. It's repetitive. And he went, yeah, and it works. I'm like, yeah, it does. So, you just said exactly the same thing about Lyle's.

Yeah, it's, it's so true. Um, one of my good— I would say he's a good friend of mine and I look to him as a, as a mentor, but Justin Sua, he does— he's kind of in the mental performance space, um, worked with a number of professional teams. And one of his kind of catchphrases is the, the greats learn to embrace the boredom of consistency.

Mm-hmm.

And I think that kind of sums up what we're talking about is it really is just who can be consistent and committed for long enough.

Yeah, I 100% agree.

Usually kind of rises to the top.

Yeah. Well, I look back at drumming as a kid and there's the basic rudiments, 2 right taps, 2 left taps, 2 right taps, 2 left taps. And I played that for hours a day for years. And even when I'd been winning world championships, I was still practicing that basic rudiment over and over and so boring. But I knew that that was literally the foundation of everything. And I'm sure you look at great basketball players, they must do free throws hundreds of times. Rory McIlroy is doing drives hundreds of times a day and still is.

Yeah.

We don't become great and just stop doing the basics. I think greatness requires fundamentals.

So one of my favorite Kobe stories is, I can't remember the name of the individual, and I'm so sorry if he ever listens to this that I can't remember his name. We'll figure out what his name is. But I share this, this story all the time because he shares it so eloquently. It's his story to share, but I love it because it emphasizes what we're talking about. He was kind of a young trainer at the time, and he was a part of one of Kobe's basketball camps for young athletes. And he asked Kobe, kind of shot his shot. He goes, hey, man, I'd love to come just watch one of your workouts. Is that okay? And he goes, I start at 4:00 a.m. Here's the address. And so, this guy tells the story. He goes, you know, I show up at 3:50 thinking that I'm gonna beat Kobe to his workout. And, as I get out of my car and I'm going to the gym door, I already hear the squeaking of sneakers and the ball bouncing. And, Kobe had already been in there and he'd been in there since 3:30 in the morning.

Brilliant.

And then, he kind of observes him doing all the basic drills that, you know, like just beginner basketball players would be doing, the fundamentals of dribbling and just defensive slides. And so anyway, after observing him do this later at camp, he goes up to him and he goes, Kobe, I got to be honest, man. Like, I'm— I was surprised to see you doing just like such basic fundamental drills. And he said Kobe looked at me with that million-dollar smile and he says, there's a reason I'm the greatest basketball player in the world.

That's—

I never get tired of the basics. I never get bored with the basics.

I love that. That's so spot on. Like, we look at him and we think of genius. You know, Kobe, there never will be another Kobe. Kobe was Kobe, right? And we look at that and we go, that's genius. He was born that way. It's luck. No, it's 3:30 AM every bloody day of the year doing the most basic things over and over and over and over. And you're saying he just would never get bored and he would just keep doing it.

Yeah. That's that hunger right there that George Mumford talked about.

100%. And Braden, I want to be mindful of your time. We've got a couple more questions, but I would love to have you back on the show. There's so much I want to talk about. So maybe in a couple of months, we'll get you back on again. We make a mistake in life, in business, on stage, on the field. We drop the ball, whatever. And the pressure's on and we're feeling the weight of the nation. What's a skill that we can use that can help us get back in the moment and move forward from our big faux pas?

Another great question. And the framework that I use to teach this to people is the 3 Rs: release, reset, refocus. And the way that I start this though, and I specifically do this with our BYU football team, so I get the opportunity to travel with the team and I'm with them in the hotel the night before home and away games. And, it's the last thing that we do before they go to bed is we do this mindfulness visualization meditation that I put them through. And, it's about 12 minutes long and I incorporate things like breathwork and progressive muscle relaxation. But, one of the things that I specifically insert into that is kind of this, how are we going to respond to adversity component? Because we know in sport that even though we don't want it to happen, it's going to happen. It's inevitable. There's going to be a bad call by a ref. There's going to be something that doesn't go our way. There's going to be a mistake that's made, miscommunication. There's some form of adversity that we're going to face. And if we wait till the moment to decide how we're going to respond, that's kind of a slippery slope because if we're in a reactive state, we might not respond very well. But if we can decide beforehand and we can visualize beforehand, okay, let's imagine adversity happening and then let's see ourselves responding in a way that we're going to— that's going to be most effective and helpful for us in that moment. And so, I kind of leave it up to them to be open-ended to figure out, okay, what does that release look like? Sometimes it's a verbal release and sometimes it's a physical release, like they'll slap their, you know, thigh pad or they'll clap their hands. And that's kind of the release part. And then the reset, I will die on the hill that it has to involve a full extended exhale breath. And you don't have a whole lot of time to do anything else other than that, than just to focus on one intentional breath. That helps reset the nervous system, get it back so that I actually can put myself back in the present moment and then refocus. Okay, what's the most— what's the next most helpful thing for me to focus on right now in this moment? Regardless of what just happened, what do I need to focus on right here, right now? So, that's kind of the release, reset, refocus.

I love it. Listeners, you've just got some gold just right at the end, but the whole way through, there's been gold. And, that's why I've had very few people I've invited back on the show, but Braden, I feel like We've got lots to talk about and it's just deeply valuable. So, I wanted to say thank you. And last question is, if someone came to you in many years, let's say it's your last day on earth, we fast forward many decades and someone comes to you and says, hey, how do I lead my life on purpose? What would you say to them?

Wow, that's a great question. And this is a question that I actually— Kind of an iteration of a question I ask people that I work with. And so this has given me an opportunity to practice what I preach. So I appreciate that. I would say to figure out for you, not for mom, not for dad, not for coach, brother, sister, girlfriend, whatever, what is most meaningful and purposeful to you in your life? And To pursue that with strong conviction and commitment and to remember that even if you make choices that aren't fully in alignment with those things all the time, you're always just one choice away from getting right back on track to who you want to become and who you want to be. Beautiful advice.

I love it. Braden, thank you so much for being here. Thanks for the work that you do. It's so critically important. And thanks for just stepping outside BYU and sharing all the insights that those folks are so lucky to get day in, day out. We are very privileged here globally to have spent time with you today. And I can't wait to reconnect with you again soon.

Thank you so much, James. This has been an awesome conversation. I appreciate you and the work that you're doing. So I'm happy to have a chat anytime.

Thanks a million. We'll chat very soon. Cheers, Braden.