Overcoming Adversity: From Homeless to Coaching the World’s #1 Tennis player

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Arena, right? World number one female tennis player.

Let's go. This is good. You know, this is like, I'm excited about it now. The athlete who's like freaking out and smashing the racket didn't want to admit it. Real, genuine fear of losing everything. It's scary, very intimidating. Why am I letting that thing control me? All those negative voices, the resistance is like screaming in your head because you're just overwhelmed by all of the sound, all the noise in your head. You have 100% control of what you do with your body. Life is tough, but, like, you can get through it. Do I really belong here? It's something I still struggle with to this day, even in this conversation.

Welcome to Lead On Purpose. I'm James Laughlin, former seven time world champion and now international keynote speaker and high performance leadership trainer. Each week I bring you an inspiring leader or expert to help you lead your life and business on purpose. Thanks for helping us be a consistently number one ranked show on Apple podcasts and Spotify. I hope you enjoy today's show.

For those of you who are avid tennis fans, you're going to love this episode. Irina Sabalenka last year was world number one. Currently I think sitting number two. She's recently just won the Australian Open. Well, she is who she is because she works hard and she's talented, but she's got an incredible team. One of the most crucial and critical team members is Jason Stacey. And we're going to sit down and go deep today. Jason is Arena's coach. For many of you who've watched the Netflix documentary, I think it's called Breakpoint, you will have seen Jason in action with Arena. He is phenomenal. He's a source of wisdom. His story will blow you away from someone who was homeless and faced some very scary things in his early days to someone who's now standing courtside at Wimbledon, driving high performance. And the thing about Jason, he has done this with multiple athletes across multiple different backgrounds and industries. He's world class at what he does. So please sit back and enjoy the show. Jason, a huge welcome to the Lead on Purpose podcast.

Thank you for having me, man. Thank you. I'm excited.

It's such a pleasure to sit down with you. Look, I know that you're on the road a lot. You've got huge commitments that take you all around the world. So to get this time, this morning, to sit down with you, create some space, and to go deep into who you are, why you are that way, and how you coach others, man, oh, man, I'm very excited.

I appreciate that, man. I'm very excited as well. Very excited. I always like opportunity to share and learn from others. It's the best. I love it.

Well, for me, it's like my introduction to you is Netflix. So I'm watching Netflix and I watch a lot of the sports stuff on Netflix behind the scenes, and I love it. So I see you there, and you're with Irina Sabalenka, and I'm seeing lots of other coaches and people in the background. I'm like, okay, they're pretty good. But there was something about you. And I thought, nah, he's different. There's compassion, there's empathy, there's fun, there's playfulness. There's a real deep focus on mindset. There's a uniqueness to who you are. So I thought, I want to know more. I want to go deeper. You're unique. See yourself as.

Appreciate it. I don't know. I mean, I just see myself as me, I suppose. You know, like, I mean, I thought if I was to be really step back and be honest with myself. Yeah, I do see that as well. I don't really fit into a box, you know, in all the different environments I work in, I always seem to come up with a perspective of something or a view of something that no one else seems to notice. You know, I always find myself looking where others aren't looking. You know, everyone's paying attention. This over here where the big flashy thing is. And I'm noticing over here, you know, hey, why is anyone noticing this over here kind of thing. And so, yeah, I do get that a lot, especially when it comes to, like, managing energy, managing emotions, you know, can kind of managing the environment. So, yeah, so it's great to hear that you notice that. Like, you know, I appreciate that. That's pretty. Thank you. Yeah.

Oh, it really stands out. And when I seen you do that, I thought, jason does that there. But that applies to the corporate business person. That applies to the busy entrepreneur. That applies to the mom who's pulling her hair out because she's got four kids and she's trying to hold it together. No.

Yeah, 100%. It's a human thing. It doesn't matter what your role is or your environment. It's just about we all have to deal with things. We all have to manage through things. We all have to figure out a way to improve and to keep moving forward. You know, it's a human thing, really. It doesn't matter what you're doing. Exactly. Right, Definitely.

And what's interesting is, you know, different people arrive at coaching through different journeys in different ways. But there's always some coaches who just have an edge to what they do. And when I start to go deeper, like, tell me about why and tell me about your journey. I'm like, okay, that makes sense. Something happened that really influenced the way you coach. So for a second, can we just take a moment and go back to the early days? Where did you grow up? What was your childhood experience?

Yeah, I mean, look, well, my father was in the military, so we. We traveled around a lot. I was born in Japan. After that, lived in Germany for a bit, but he died when I was very young, about 10, 11 years old.

And then, so to start off with, you know, the first part of my life, I was in a few different countries hopping around quite a bit, you know, getting, you know, environments where I didn't speak the language or I had to learn different languages. Born in Japan, obviously. So I was there for a number of years and got to start into martial arts there. So since I was about 6 or maybe a bit younger, starting martial arts. And then when I was around 12, 13, I ended up being homeless, like, by myself until I was close to 16 years old. And that.

That.

That was a pretty rough experience. Obviously, I ended up managing to get off the streets, really, actually, again, because of martial arts. There was a local school in this small town. Like, you know, it was between, like, just a run downtown. It was just a, you know, not a safe place. But there's this old school, used to walk by all the time, and I just go in and watch, and the instructors there sort of let me train there, and they kind of helped me get off the street. And a lot of the guys who trained there and taught there were, like, police officers and sheriffs and, you know, things like this. And so, you know, they helped me get off the street. And.

A lot of the things that, you know, happened to me during that, you know, three years being Sort of alone on my own, living on the streets, I think. And then that introduction to that school that really helped shape a lot of, I guess, who I am. But I just know that so much of what I learned from there I draw in and use on my day to day coaching. That's how I got into coaching. Just learning how to listen to my gut, be aware of my environment, understand people's intentions, how to manage my own emotions and understand people's sort of reaction to things and noticing how I respond, how it can influence the environment. You know, there's a lot of things that, you know, maybe I didn't realize it then, you know, because it was obviously pretty scary and, you know, really hard. But it's definitely some experiences that has helped me, I guess, with that edge of really helping others, you know, and that's, that's one of the things I think how I got into coaching is, you know, actually at that school I, you know, I got into a little bit older and I was like 17, 18, 19, and I started helping teaching, you know, some of the younger classes. And then I was teaching like, you know, there's classes with people like disabilities. So I started learning how to coach and teach, you know, and then I started learning like, you know, so much of what I love doing was, you know, sharing my experience and starting to help people understand, like, hey, you know what, life is tough, but like, you can get through it. You know, there's lots of ways of, you know, managing your way through it and learning how to, you know, be more self aware, listening to your gut, you know, understanding people's intentions and how to manage your own emotions. I mean, that was like a huge thing for me. So while those experiences were pretty rough, you know, I think I wouldn't change this because they made me who I am and they've helped me help a lot of people. You know, not just athletes, but other coaches, you know, family, friends, people I've just met, you know, other leaders in the different industries. So it's really helped me take this, I guess, experience, you can call it experiences, because some of them was very scary stuff, you know, it was very scary. But you know, while I was going through all that, I think back all the time and it's like I feel like I always had this gut feeling, like I, I knew it wasn't where I was supposed to end up and this, this was just a situation I was in. You know, things were happening to me, but it wasn't who I was. You know, I knew I could survive this. And I knew I was, I was gonna do something more. You know, I just always knew that, like, I didn't get involved in drugs. It was drugs everywhere. I mean, there was times where I got, you know, injured very bad, like people trying to kill me because I wouldn't do drugs. You know, Like, I would just, you know, I think I survived that. And no matter how hard it was, I just knew that I had to stick to, like, my values and like, try to find like.

Sorry.

Get a little emotional sometimes.

Take your time.

Got it. Okay. Wow. So as long as it just hits me sometimes. But of course.

But the important part, like I was trying to say, is that like, for me, it's like that's been something I've just. It's stuck with me forever is like, just know who I am, know what I stand for, know my values are. And just regardless of the consequence. Right. No matter how hard it gets at times, just stick to it.

I love that.

You know, Stick to it. Yeah.

I want to say thank you for showing your vulnerability and showing your courage and your strength. It's amazing. Too many super successful males, particularly males, struggle to tap into true, raw emotion. Sorry that you had to go through what you went through as a youngster. It's horrific and no kid should have to. What is so amazing is your response to that and what you've done with your life. You talk about these values and as a 13, 14 year old, with other adults around almost forcing you to take drugs and wanting to kill you if you didn't to stick to your values and say no as a teenager, Unbelievable. Where did that strong sense of moral and ethic come from?

Hey, James here. I wanted to take a quick moment to let you know about something. Look, I get asked to deliver keynotes and workshops for teams and companies on all over the world, from London to Antarctica, from America to Australasia, from armies to small businesses to large corporates to sports teams. But I go in and deliver keynotes around the mindset of high performers, around the habits of high performers, about how we navigate change. If you would like me to come and speak to your team or speak at your conference or deliver a bespoke workshop, please get in touch with my team. Carolinejlochlin.com will be able to help. I. I'll also make sure that we put that in the show notes.

I mean, it's hard to say. I mean, like, you know, I can go to some neuroscience and say, hey, look, you know, you have this, you know, this warrior, warrior gene and maybe You're a bit more like this and that and, you know, so I do. Maybe there's a part of that, but I mean, obviously I had a good start, you know, starting point, you know, like with my parents, you know, starting out early on as a young man. I started martial arts when I was very young and just maybe learning that sort of just self control and discipline and I mean, for me, and still to this day, the same thing. It was just always this, this gut feeling I had, you know what I mean? It was just something. I just knew there was something inside of me. I was like, no, this isn't it. You know what I mean? I just. And I just. I don't know, I can't. I can't say why or how exactly. I think there's probably a lot of things, you know, maybe just having the right starting point with the parents and being living in different countries and having exposure to different things and, you know, it just was a situation how I ended up there. It wasn't something that I did that put me there. It was just something that happened to me that put me in that situation. And I just had to. I just knew how to manage it. And I don't know, I just automatically went to survival mode and just made sure I just did what I had to do. And I just knew, like, with everything I've done, even since then, like with all my career, like, even, even my career becoming a performance coach, you know, I didn't. There's no, no part of my life or career that was like that traditional sort of like flow, you know what I mean? Like, I, I officially, officially, you know, I finished the eighth grade, was the last grade I finished. Wow. And yet I. Working at universities and teaching at these, you know, these places all around the world, people like twice my age with like, you know, PhDs and this and that, I'm like standing side by side with them and saying, hey, actually can you see this? And, you know, and it can work alongside with these guys. And so I didn't get there in the traditional way, but I got there.

I love that.

I've always known that, but that's just something I just, I don't know where it comes from. It's just who I am. But at the same time, it's. I don't think it's some special thing. It's just from the work I've done. I put a lot of effort in. I put a lot of work in. It took a lot of difficult, you know, surviving a lot of difficult situations to Stand up for what I believed in, you know? And I applied that same attitude and the same resiliency and the same focus on going back to school. It's like, yeah, I started way later than everybody else. I didn't have all these resources and a foundation or a home even to, like, do this from. But I knew where I wanted to go, and I just figured finding different ways, indirect ways, to get what I wanted to be where I knew I should be, and I made sure I was around the right people. I slowly started putting myself in better environments, being around the better people, the right places. You know, I was working for free where I could. I did whatever I had to do to just be in the right place, be around the right people. And just everywhere I went, no matter what I did, that was my focus. Nothing else mattered in my life. If, like, right now, you and I are having this conversation, right? You and I both have a lot of things going on in life, like most people do, but there's nothing else that matters to me right now except for you and I just having this conversation and sharing our experiences and then hopefully helping other people through our conversation have some moments of, like, oh, wow, okay. You know what I mean? And so, for me, that's what focus is. It's always just been that intensity that. That, like, no matter what you're doing, that is the most, like, making the most important thing the most important thing. And the most important thing is always what you're doing right now. Like, what am I doing right now? That's. That's all that matters. Because if it's not, then why am I wasting my time? Why am I doing it then?

I've seen you do this on the bar. Like, watch. Just obviously, I get the. The highlight reels, but I've watched you do this where you're like, somebody else on the team and key person on the team who's helping this one individual try to be the world's best, right prior to they're about to go and perform, one individual on the team starts to talk about something that's totally way off course that could throw the individual off.

We don't talk about that. We don't need to do that before we go on. Let's stay focused on this. So you really walk the walk, but you bring others with you. It's not just a Jason thing. It's a we thing. Like, you're very team focused.

It's definitely not a me thing. I mean, that's. What's the point, you know? I mean, like, you know, even as a coach, you know, I go all these places and, like, at different phases of my life, I'll do some mentoring or coaching or I'll be speaking or whatever and.

Get all these different, you know, leaders and speakers or, you know, coaches tell me all these things that they do, right? That they do. And, like, they're so proud of, like, oh, yeah, I do this and that. I'm, like, I'm never really impressed by that. And I tell you what I'm impressed by and what. What matters to me most is that, like, okay, you know, James, you know, for you personally, you, you know, you journal, you do this, you do this, you do all these great things for yourself, right? And so you lead by example. An important thing. Don't get me wrong, it's very important. But what I want to know is if you're going to just. That's for you, for your own development, your own life, right? Great. Keep at it. I love it. But if you're going to call yourself a coach or all the different types of words meaning coach, you know.

What I want to know is how many people in your immediate circle, the people that are around you day to day, how many of them have made those changes and taken those actions because of you.

To me, that's more impressive than you have the discipline and you've taught yourself how to do this and that. And so for me, it's the same thing. It's like, yeah, I've gone through some things and I've managed those things, and I've made myself better and stronger and be able to think more clearly and all those kind of learn how to do all these different. Navigate through all these different things.

But what good is that if I can't help others do the same thing? Because everybody has a story. We all have a story. We'll have challenges. And it doesn't matter how serious or bad or easy. It's all relevant. It's all very relevant. Like, what you're going through now is your issue. It's your challenge. It's your stress. Doesn't matter. If to me, that part of your life, why are you so stressed about that? It's so easy. But then there might be something to me that I'm freaking out about, and you're like, hey, why is he so stressed about it? So easy, right? You know, it's all very real. It's all very relevant. So as. As a coach, if you want to be a leader and you want to be a coach, then it is, you know, how many People can you bring alongside you and help them do the same thing? Because then I now, instead of me just influencing, you know, my family, for example, or some of my close friends, then they're going to go out and influence other people, right? And everyone, every coach that I had a chat with, everybody player, athlete, I've worked with, every executive I've talked to or helped out, every one of those guys and gals is now able to take some of what we work through and give that to somebody else. And so then it just grows and it grows and it grows. So it's always a team effort, 100%.

It makes me uncomfortable when it's about me. I don't like it. It makes me feel weird.

Yeah, I can. Honestly, in our conversations and reactions up until today, I've seen that every time that you. There's a massive sense of humility. And, you know, I'm sitting in New Zealand currently. If you were here, that would be so strongly embraced, because New Zealanders take pride in, particularly the All Blacks, our national team. A big thing they take pride in is humility. We're going to be great and we're going to do it as a team, but actually, we want to carry ourselves in a way that we're proud, but there's no ego.

That's right. Steady and strong. Just, you know, you're there. You don't have to be above or below anyone. You're just steady and strong, and you stay true to who you are. And that's amazing. I love the All Blacks, by the way. It's like the story, the culture, the whole thing is amazing.

Quite a story. But, hey, your story is quite a story, too. So we go from you being on the streets, and next minute, I'm seeing you on the courtside at Wimbledon. I'm seeing you holding up the Australian.

What do we call it? Is there a name for that trophy?

Australian Open. Oh, yeah, the trophy for the show.

Australian Open with. With your team, your whole teammate. That's incredible. That's a big turnaround. So what happened in between there? What started happening? What decisions were being made that took you from being a life that was going in the wrong direction to arguably your dream life?

I mean, a lot of great people, you know, just meeting the right people.

Being open enough to, like, really listen to what they had to offer and say and, like, noticing, you know, hey, there's a different way, you know, so just. I think, yeah, just. Just being me. I. To be honest, I think it's the same thing as always. It's like, I'm just. No matter where I am, no matter who I'm working with, I'm just me. I don't try to be something different, you know, I don't try to act a certain way. Like, obviously there's a time and place to act as, you know, there's appropriateness for certain environments or cultures. Outside of that, I mean, I'm just me. And so I've always been that way. You know, I've always been curious, very curious. I've always asked questions, always. Not in an arrogant way or to you sort of like, question what you're doing, but more like, I really want to understand where you're coming from. And so for me, everywhere I went, I just. I was able to find the people that were willing to, I guess, give me some guidance, you know, give me some advice and just really good people I've met along the way that helped me realize that, well, I can do this, or what could be a next step or, you know, I'll give you an example. So I was teaching, you know, this aiki jitsu and jiu jitsu classes, you know, and. And by then I was like, maybe 19, 20, and. Excuse me. And I was one of our students there. She was a sport therapist and a massage therapist. And we ended up having, like, we became good friends. And for a little while we had this, like, log cabin out in the woods together. Like, we just, you know, we both lived outdoors, so we just stayed. We had. It was like, free for a year, the gu. Like, yeah, you can stay there. Let's do it. Anyway, we'd be talking about all these different things, right? And I would be talking to her about, like, how the body works and how it responds to this or that. And she's like, how do you know these things? Like, you, you, you seem to understand how the body works better than the people that, you know, are at the school teaching me this stuff. You just don't know what the things are called, you know. And so she's like, man, you should really look into doing this, maybe. So I was like, huh? You know, So I went and checked it out. Like, wow, that really connected with me. So I started kinesiology, sort of massage therapy, started fitness, you know, studying all these things. And, you know, I just realized that, like, I love teaching and coaching. I loved. For me, it always gave me this, like, I don't know, this energy when I, like, was helping someone, you know. And I noticed that when I was teaching the martial art classes, right? Like, when someone have those like aha moments, because it's something I like helped him with, man. It was just like, it's like fed my soul, you know what I mean? I just felt like, I love this, you know, and the more I was doing that, the more I got exposed to it, the more I realized, like, man, this is like, like my thing. I don't remember saying that to myself, like, hey, this is my thing. But like looking back now, I realized like, it just, that was what just drove me to keep going and keep learning how to teach and how to, how to understand human behavior, how to help people learn and how different people, you know, respond to different things. And I just kept making sure I got around the right people. I knew when I started realizing I wanted to get into sport and work with athletes and do coaching, you know, I just, like I said, I started studying massage therapy, sport therapy, then I became a personal trainer and then I started studying strength and conditioning and then I got. Try to get myself into physical therapy school again, you know, I didn't graduate, you know, anything, you know, so I've got a ged, you know, I, I just found all these indirect ways to get into like I got an internship at a university as an athletic trainer, which is like a sport physio, but we work just with athletes. So I was the only one there that wasn't in the university. I ended up somehow finding a way to work in there, you know, so I got all the out. I just, I just kept finding a way to work at all these events that would just volunteer my time. I got a job at a doctor's clinic. And so I just, everywhere I could work, I just, sometimes I'm not even, I'm not exaggerating, I would stay awake, I'd be awake for three days straight, like literally working. I would go from place to place and do one thing to the other just to make sure I was doing what I needed to do to get where I wanted to be. And I didn't always know exactly where it was going to be, but I knew I had to be doing something to get there. And I, and I had to be in the right environment around the right people. That's. That's all I knew. Just, it just, it wasn't going to be about just me. I needed people to help me get there. And so I just made sure I had those people with me, you know, and every time I just get everything again, it goes back to this, you know, this focus thing is no matter where I was, no matter how tired I was, and how much difficulty it was. No matter if I was working for free and I was doing the crappy job that day or it didn't matter. Like, that's all that mattered. I was. Whenever I was there, I gave it everything I had and I stayed curious. And I would find that the, the people working there, the ones that like, were where I wanted to be, for example, you know, where I thought I wanted to be, you know, they'd be like, hey, come on over here, let me help you with something. Hey, let me show you something. Hey, you know what? We have this, this event coming over. Like, you know, would you be interested in coming to help us? You know, because I was just who I was and I was giving everything. I didn't take it for granted. I didn't take it, you know, I didn't come up with this arrogant attitude about I already knew everything, I wasn't afraid to ask questions, all that kind of stuff. So I just built trust, you know, and I just kept going. I mean, that was a really long answer because it was a very long journey.

That's amazing.

To that, you know, just. And then look and like, just. And then it just grew from there, you know, and then like, then I was getting good results from the physical stuff I would do. But also just that meant teaching people that mentality how to manage their emotions. And for me, as, as things went along, that's how I've. I've sort of. It all kind of come to a point where I realized that like, you know, your mentality, your mindset, your. Your emotions and your physical abilities and what you do with your body, they're not separate. You know what I mean? It's a together thing. And, and whatever I do with my body, if it directly impacts how I feel, how I can think and how I see things and those physical, tangible things I have control over no matter what is going on, no matter about my feelings, right? I can control my physical body. I control how I breathe, I control how I move. And how I breathe and move will influence how my brain is working, how my. What part of my nervous system is like firing up and, you know, chilling out, how much arousal there is and attention and focus, all that. It's directly related on how I'm moving. It goes both ways. Obviously, if I'm stressed or anxiety, yeah, my heart rate goes, my breathing changes, my physical. What I physically do with my body changes. When something outside of me happens, I have a physical response. So I was always like, well, wait a minute, why don't we Just reverse that. If it's true that we have a physical response based on all these psychological, environmental, you know, thingies. Anxiety, depression, stress, fear, excitement, happiness, all that stuff, well, why can't I just create those feelings and emotions by doing something that I have control over? So if I'm in an environment where I need to feel a certain way, why am I allowing the environment to dictate those things? Why am I allowing my opponent, whether the opponent be a person, a team, or this intangible obstacle I'm trying to get through some, you know, whatever it is I'm facing, why am I letting that thing control me, where I have control of me? And if I learn what these different things are with my body to make me feel a certain way, then why don't I just do those things?

Right. That's. Oh, a little thumbs up.

And. And so that's where a lot of that came from. And again. And that. Where I took back what I learned from my experiences. And then what I learned from, like, the training in martial arts on learning how to listen to your body, learning how to listen to your gut, and then actually having tangible steps on how to teach that. Because that's what we used to do. And even in, like, I would teach to the kids classes, like, how to teach them how to listen to their gut if they were in a good environment, in a bad environment, if there was something that may be unsafe or, you know, something to be aware of, is like teaching them how the body responds in those different situations and what those different responses mean. So then they start to kind of build a library almost of, well, my gut feels this way. And usually if I feel this way, it's because, you know, I was in trouble because I did something wrong, you know, so something must not be right. Okay, so what's not right? So they start paying attention. So instead of having a reaction that their body's having, and then they let that control them, like, they get more anxious and fearful or upset or angry. They have this physical response and they go, okay, so why am I having this response? And they have control over it, and they could do something about it. And so I love that, teaching those kind of things. What's that?

They get curious about the feeling and curious about the fear rather than letting it overtake every part of their body.

Exactly. The more control that you can give someone, the less stress and the less impact the stress will have on them. The negative side of stress, because there's a positive side of stress. Obviously you need that stuff, but, you know, Um, I know. Kind of hopping all over the place. I love this stuff. I get very excited. So if you slow down, you know, just let me know. But, like, there was a lot of different things in that that any one of those things I think we can talk about for a long time. But, you know, at the end of the day, it's like learning how to listen to your body. Learning how to use your body to create the. The emotion or the. Or the feeling that you need to be able to perform your best or to manage a situation.

And just. Just learning how to listen to it so you can trust it, you know, and then take action.

Listening. How do we. Because I feel sometimes my gut's there, but sometimes I don't listen to it or I can't really hear it because it's. There's a lot of noise. There's technology and there's commitments and there's work. How do we tap in and just start embracing that gut?

Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of different angles. Like most things, I don't really look at anything as, like, this is the one way, you know, here's the system on how to. How to do that. I feel there's a lot of approaches, and it'll.

I think it'll be based on a couple of things. Like, what would work for you specifically, let's say, James, is that, you know, it'll depend on you as a. Who you are, your background, your. Where you are right now in the thing and what it is you're facing that you're trying to kind of work through. So a lot of different variables. Right? Because you and I, right now, we're in different places, you know, how we see things. And so what might work for me right now may not be working for you right now. Doesn't mean it won't work, but maybe right now. So I like to take a step back. It's like. Let me ask you this. Let me. I'll start with a question. How about this? How much time or energy or have you spent on studying or learning what the different sensations in your body mean as far, you know, in regards to an emotion? Like when you have an emotion, if you're sad, angry, happy, what are all the different parts of your body feeling like in those moments? Have you really thought about that much?

Only in the last year, maybe 18 months, in fact. This is sitting at my desk here. You'll laugh. This is for kids, but it equally applies for adults. It's called how do I Feel?

Okay.

Deck of emotions Cards that talks about 65 different emotions. So I do it with my son.

But I'm learning about it too, of course.

Example, I flew to Auckland yesterday to speak for a company. And as the plane was coming down into Auckland, I started getting this really nervous tickle in my throat. Like the nerves were there. I'm like, oh. And three or four years ago that would have deteriorated to a bit of shaking, a bit of self doubt, to the point where I would step on a stage three or four years ago and I'd be frightened.

Sure.

I look at that tickle and I'm like, ha, it's back. That means I care. It's excite. That's excitement.

Great that you're here, glad that you care. That's kind of how I embrace it. So I've started exploring different feelings and going, I get to frame what they are. I get to frame if that's fear and I'm going to die. Or is that little tickle just excitement?

That's awesome. And that's, I mean that's, that's beautiful. And that and that and that has so many different layers. But like, you know, there's two different parts that you're talking about. One is that it's that awareness that actually our bodies have physical responses to different emotions in our and our environment, like internally and external environments. And often those reactions, those responses physically are happening often before even consciously aware of it, you know, and there's even evidence now that like our brain is responding to something that, to something before it even happens. Like just briefly before it happens. So again, more evidence that our body, the physical movement type things, the tangible things that we can control are telling us things all the time. And we can control those things no matter what's going on. But to listening to these, going back to those feelings, the second part is your perception of it, right? The more you become aware of these things, like, well, why do you have those things? Oh, I feel this right now, or my gut feels that way instead of this way. The more you start to pay attention to those, those things, like, well, when I was doing this, I felt that way. You know, you want to remember that or go back and think, you know, with the kids, for example, the kids classes, we used to, I used to talk to them and say, listen, like, you know, I come up with like some sort of story like, you know, when was the last time you, like, you know, you were at like a friend's party or think back to a time like, you know, like this weekend, you know, if it's like, on a Monday or something, you know, what did you guys do? Was there anything really fun and exciting and get them to start telling me, like, oh, we did this. This. Like, all right, so just send you there right now. Like, how do you feel right now? How's your stomach feel? How does your shoulders feel? How's your neck feel? You know, like, how does their body feel? And then, like, talk about, hey, like, what about how many of you guys got in trouble this weekend. You did something, you know, you weren't supposed to do, and you know, you got caught, and, you know, like, okay, mom and dad, you know, they're about to come upstairs and tell you off, you know? You know, they're on their way. How are you feeling right now? You know, are you waiting for dad to come home and he's going to talk to you about it? And you hear the car pull up? Like, how's your body feel right now? What does your stomach feel? Like? What is your shoulders doing? How's your breathing? Like, just kind of think about it and.

And.

And just starting to get them to understand, like, oh, you know, get this awareness of, like, oh, my. My stomach feels this way. It wasn't a good thing. You know what I mean? My instrument felt that way was when I was like, you know, imagine like your first girl you fell in love with, you know, or the, you know, your first. First person you fell in love with, or you thought you were just like, oh, my God, like, how are you feeling when you thought about that, you know, And. Or even good memories that we have now. Think back to a good, positive memory or a bad memory. What is your body doing? And starting to really, really pay attention to that. So that way, over time, you won't have to consciously think about it. You'll feel a certain way like you do right now. I have to tickle my throat. Oh, that's good. That means I'm excited. Like, that means, like, you know, this is important to me. Let's go. This is good, you know, this is like, I'm excited about it now, you know, so you've just flipped it and you've taken. You took control over it because you have an awareness of it, right? Rather than, like, letting it, like you said, let it take over you. So these different ways of kind of learning how to do that. But it just takes the effort to just pay attention, you know, listening to yourself. And I'll tell you a quick little story, like, he's like a little like a story, like. Like an easy example of some of how your perception of what you're feeling is. It's not so much the physical response that's the problem, it's how we, how we're reading it, how we're letting it take over our perception of it. So I'll give, like, this is an easier example. So, like, when I would, over the years, I would manage gyms or I work in gyms, you'd see a lot of people, like commercial type gyms, right? You get a lot of the everyday person who, you know, maybe has no experience in a gym. And quite often, if you go to a lot of commercial gyms, even to this day, where there's a lot of people who, you know, they're unhealthy, they're overweight, they're suffering anxiety and depression and they're miserable. And just them walking in the door for them is like a massive step. It's huge and it's scary, very intimidating. And I've seen so many times, for example, they get on it. You know, a trainer goes, hey, let's just go, you know, start moving around a little bit. And they put them on a treadmill just to walk, just start moving, right? As they start moving, what happens to their heart rate? The heart rate starts to go up a little bit, right? So now you have someone who's on a treadmill, who's never used to exercising, who's lived a life, you know, more recently, they have a lot of stress and anxiety. And what is your heart rate doing when you're under, when you're stressed and out and, you know, very anxious? It's elevated, right? So we have two scenarios where physically, take out of the context, we just have elevated heart rates, right? So this person, every time their heart rate's been elevated, what have they experienced? It's a bad thing, Stressful, it's fear, it's anxiety, it's all these things. And so now they're in a safe and safe or controlled environment, let's say it's controlled, they're just walking on a treadmill a little bit more than they normally do. So the heart rate goes up. But in their mind, their brain, their responses, my heart rate's up, something's wrong, something's bad. And so you'll see them start to really get anxious and freaked out. Not because the exercise is so hard, they're barely moving, but their heart rate starts to go up. And their history of, for them, their experience of a heart rate going up is a negative thing. It's bad, it's scary, it's fear. It's anxiety. And so that's a perfect example of just the context, like the people's perception. It's the same response. Heart rate's going up. You got one person who heart rate goes up. And they're like, why is my heart rate going up? Ah, because I'm on the treadmill, no doubt, you know, or, hey, why is my heart rate going up and my throat sticking? Ah, you know what? I just landed. This thing just got real. I'm about to go present just people I've never met, you know, it got real. You know what I mean? And so. But you know that now say, okay, that's why it's happening. Okay, no problem. Cool. You know, and either a, you can change, like, the words that you use to describe that feeling, like you're excited instead of nervous, you know, these kind of things. And then you can also. You know what? I need to control my breathing a little bit. I just check myself and just, you know, let me control my breathing. You know, I'll let it go short and shallow and all like, you know, systemic. You know, just like, slow down my exhales a little bit. Get more parasympathetic, a little more clarity, a little bit more calmness. Like, okay, yeah, cool. I'm ready. Let's go. Let's do this. You know what I mean? Not too relaxed for you, too, you know, you want to be a little anxious, you know, a little bit this and that.

You stress.

What's that?

A little bit of that. Instead of the distress, it's the eustress.

That's perfect. I like that. That's good. And so again, just a little story on how your perception, you know, how you decide to respond to those. Those physical things that happening to you is really just about your exposure and your awareness of why is it happening to you or the history that you've had up until that point. Because it's like everything else, everything about us as who we are and where we want to go and where we want to be. Like our self image, let's say. Self image. Right? People have so much. I always hear this all the time. It's like, oh, this is, you know, this is how I am. I've always, you know, I've always been this way. Or, you know, they just have this, like, this is who they are, how they think they are. And it's just like a thing. And it's like, I always tell people, listen, you know, there's these small little things you could do. So let's say this is Where I am right now, this is my self image, this is where I am. And I can keep going, telling myself the same story, respond the same way, have the same reactions, have everything. But if I start making these little changes over time, what happens is I start to kind of veer off over time. I'm, I'm slowly changing the direction of which, of how I see myself and who I believe I am and what I'm capable of doing and all those different things. And so all of this stuff about listening to your gut, managing your emotions, being aware of your surroundings, your environment, being like all these, like, why are these things happening to you? And then, so that's your first step, is you become aware. And that awareness gives you a sense of control. That sense of control reduces your, how stress negatively affects you. Right, the negative side of stress. And, and then over time then you can start to apply tools on, well, how do I start to manage that and change that, that reaction, Whether it's the words I use to describe it, the physical things I do with my body, maybe it's how I breathe, maybe it's what I do with a movement. If I'm over aroused, there's movements I could do to help kind of bring myself down a little bit. If I'm under aroused, I need to be a little more stimulated. There's things I could do to get a little bit more stimulated. You know what I mean?

It's testing, right? You're in movement and fluidity, testing things and trying things. There's no tried and tested way that works for every human. We're all different.

That's right. And so I know I'm kind of being very wordy in this description because there's so many moving parts to it, but yeah, you put it very well. It's like, that's why I said from the start is like, you know where you are right now. Like you said, well, how do I do that? Well, it depends like, you know, all good answers, right? It depends.

100%, but there's a lot. But the point is you need to make the effort to first be aware of where those things are coming from and what they mean. And then once you have that awareness, you can start to apply different tools on how to do something about it.

And when you said that.

Yeah, sorry.

So the thing that came to mind for me was your perception shapes your reality. Like when you said that, I was like, okay, whatever I perceive, that's just what I think is real. So if I can get in behind the perception and shift that through movement, through breath work, through words, affirmations, whatever you want to call them, that can actually change how I see the situation.

100. 100. Now, let's say you're talking about my athletes, and they're on, they're in that, like, fight, flight, freeze, you know, super stressed out, fear state, threat state, you know, talking themselves out of it usually doesn't work. It's too late. Visualizing themselves out of it using the mantras, the words, the, you know, like you said, like use excited instead of nervous, that stuff. It's too late. You're already in this fight combat mode. Yeah. You're just, you're, you're like. Everything is tunnel vision right now. You just see this, all those negative voices, the resistance is like screaming in your head. You hear all these different, you know, you don't belong here. You know, you know, all these, this, these negative things. You're just overwhelmed by all of the sound, all the noise in your head, and you can't think your way out of this. There's just no way. It's too late by then. And so that's where you bring in the more physical things, whether it's change how you're breathing, you know, who's that guy from the all blocks used to stomp on the ground, you know, like get himself grounded again, like, so bring himself back to the moment, to the present, you know, like, there's all these physical things you could do to bring yourself right back to that moment, to not get rid of those voices in your head, but to just turn the volume down a little bit, because they're always going to be there. Like, just don't, don't worry about it. They're going to be there. They ain't going anywhere. But you can kind of turn the volume down a little bit, right? You have 100% control of what you do with your body. 100%. No matter how you feel, you just need the discipline to do those things, like figure out what those things are physically to help you get back to where you need to be to go perform your best or get the job done or go kill that presentation or go get that contract or whatever it is you're doing. You know what I mean? Yeah. So, you know, before you walk into that stage, you know, like, just right now, you and I, we're gonna have a chat, you know, the last year or so, I mean, I, I go through phases where I speak a lot. I do presentations, I'll podcast, I'll coach, I'll, you know, mentor all these Things, a lot of group stuff. But you know, last year, so I haven't really done much at all. I just been doing my thing kind of quietly, just doing my thing. And I like, this is my year. Everyone's like, dude, you have to go back out there and you know, do it more. And social media is bigger now, so you really just got to do it, you know. Yeah. And then so I'm like, yeah, okay. And so, you know, I haven't, haven't had an interview in a little while like this. So I was, you know what I did before we got on the phone? I went out to my gym, you know, in my garage and I moved around and I did things that I know, kind of help, kind of wake me up, make me feel good. Not over rouse or I'm like, hey, James, how you doing? What's going on? But not like, oh, just relaxed and just like, oh, or not nervous or whatever. I'm just, I'm here, I'm awake, I'm aware, my mind is fresh, the blood is flowing and I'm excited, you know. So how simple is that?

You knew that you could do a short blast and come in here and be the way you wanted to be in the situation.

Yeah, I had control of that. So there's no stress, no fear. You know, people have to learn how to face their fears. But we can talk about that, you know, what real fears are later, if you like.

But yeah, definitely.

I don't know. There's a lot of stuff like a.

Tennis player on the back foot essentially, and they are at the point where they're now smashing their racket or throwing it or they're screaming at the umpire. We've all seen it, right. They have obviously got into this over aroused state. Their emotional defaults are now kicking in. There's no power in the pause if they're not pausing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What do you think is the most effective way when someone gets to that point? That could be at home screaming at your kids, that could be at work about to lose it with someone. What's really effective? Is there a breathing technique? Is there a stand up move, get outside? What can you do in the moment when you can't really run away?

Sure. And you've got to deal with it. Yeah. Like you're on the stage and it's happening. You have nowhere to go and hide, right?

Yeah.

I mean, again, it depends.

Yeah.

For example, for example, like the, the first example of, you know, there's the athlete who's like freaking out. They're Smashing the racket. They're, you know, they're already there. You know what? Sometimes the act of doing that, that's what they need to do to get back on top, on target. For example, Irina, there are times where it just had a no way. She'll just scream. She'll get real emotional because she needs to have that release. And sometimes we'll get her to do that on purpose. Like Anton and I, the other coach, we see that and we're like, we got to do something to get her frustrated almost, or just let it out. These were the early years where she didn't really have good control of her emotions. You know, I didn't understand them well enough. It's like, all right, she's an emotional person. You can't. You're not going to make that stop. That'd be ridiculous. It's not going to work.

Right?

So for her, actually, that yelling and screaming and sometimes smashing a racket, that's like, okay, now we're ready. This is good. We get excited about it. Now she's back. Yeah, exactly. It's like a boom. Okay, now I'm ready to go. Just get it out of you. Get out of your head. Get out of your. Whatever funk that you're in and just like, you reset, ready to go. Others, maybe a little more civil responses, you know, a little more control. Yeah, definitely, definitely. The breathing is, I would say, the priority, the breathing, the control in your breath. You know, breath control is emotional control, period. Breath control is emotional control. How I breathe directly, activates and settles down or turns the volume. You know, the. The dial down on. On different parts of my nervous system. Know, when I inhale, it's systemic. It's the fight flight. You know, let's go freeze and, you know, do all these other, you know, these. These more aroused things, right? When I exhale, it's parasympathetic. So it's that, you know, rest, digest more executive fun. You know, I can think more clearly, I can see things more calmly. And so if you're able. Depending on, you know, again, the situation, if you're out of breath because you've been sprinting, not as easy to do. But if you can, you have two minutes or a minute, and you can just do some long exhales, like real slow exhales, you spend more time in that parasympathetic state, right? So you have a better chance of, like, kind of getting some of that noise to be a little bit quieter. So you can kind of see a little crack in the. In the, in the mess, see a little light in the end of the tunnel, kind of focus on that and kind of find some better answers on, on how to respond to what's going on.

So it's simple and it's real. It's not a, you know, eccentricy, you know, sort of woman, fuzzy thing. It's, it's a real scientific, tangible, physical thing. When I inhale, it's systemic. When I exhale it's parasympathetic. Right. Or sympathetic versus parasympathetic. Very simple. So if you want to be more clear minded and control in, in, in, in the moment, then you just need to spend more time of whatever time you have exhaling and less time inhaling and tada.

There you are. In fact a real world example. Before I speak, I've got a watch that obviously on aura ring that kind of measures different things. But right before I speak about the 10 minute mark out, I look at my heart rate and it's usually around 110 to 120 beats per minute. Like I'm feeling it, you know. And usually it's sitting in the 60s, right?

Sure.

So I'll go to the bathroom and I'll do four counts in breathing and then I'll do six or eight out. Within about 90 seconds I'm right down around that kind of my sweet spot for performing. And my performing and speaking is usually around the 90 beats. I don't want to be at 67 beats per minute. When I'm speaking I'll be boring. But 90 is good. 120, not good. I'm speaking too quick and it's not making much sense. But it's breath work that actually keeps bringing it back for me anyway.

And then look, it's a physical, tangible thing that you have 100% control over. No matter how you're feeling, no matter what's going on around you, you have control of that. So if you start to learn how those work, you start to develop the discipline to do that breathing no matter how you're feeling. Because when you're in that space, like the example of the athlete getting angry and frustrated, you start saying hey, just breathe. They're like screw you. Okay, like what? This is stupid. Like it's breathing like you know, it's just like what are you talking about? It's ridiculous. You know what I mean? It's like yeah, maybe, maybe it does seem that way at first. It does seems like such a silly, it's so simple, it seems ridiculous. Right. And when you're feeling this, when it's so new to you, and. Or. Or you're really angry and frustrated, you know, having people just, like, you know, slow down your breathing or your ex. Like. Like, you know what I mean? They're like, this is ridiculous. It's like, if you get the discipline just to do it, no matter how you feel, it works. And a lot of. A lot of my neuroscience friends used to tell me years ago, is that, like, if you were to do, like, 6, 4, 10 breathing or, you know, where you have a longer exhale, you know, whatever numbers that you want to use, that if you did that for two minutes, say you're really angry, and you did that for two minutes, you can't be angry anymore. It's, like, physically impossible to be angry. I mean, obviously, if you're still in the environment, nothing's changing. You know, maybe not, but you get the point. The idea is that, like, you. If you do this, it changes who's in control, what part of your nervous system, what part of your brain is. Is doing what. And so it's really powerful. It's. It's the best. And so, like, you know, maybe you can give. You know, what I would give. Like, some of the newer people, regardless of this sport or, you know, office or wherever they're at is, you know, like, some of the coaches that wanted to get into speaking would be the same thing as they have, like, little notebook. Okay, here's my key points. Well, I remember one guy, honestly, you know, when we had slides, you know, he had his PowerPoint thing. You know, he'd have this slide that would pop up every so often. It was like a trigger to remind him to slow down his breathing because he was a lot like me, where I get excited, start talking too fast. So, like, when I would speak, I always have little subtle things around the stage or in my. On one of my slides. There'll be something in the corner somewhere there. Just like. Oh, yeah. Just, like, take a second, and I just stop. And then I just start talking again. And then I started slowing down, I started speaking more clearly because I. You know, as you can see now I'm getting very excited. You know, I'm trying to catch myself, but, you know, I love that. I love this stuff so much. It just. I can't help it. But, you know, there's passion, and I.

Love that about you. The one word I want to share with you, if you don't mind, is hunger. I think you have an insatiable hunger, and I see it in your eyes. I see it in the way you talk, the way you deal with people that you're coaching, it's like we're going to get there. And I don't know exactly how yet, but we'll figure that out. But I know we're going to get there. You believe in the outcome?

Yeah, man, I appreciate it. Thank you. I take that as a very big compliment. I mean, that's how I feel and I appreciate you noticing that. I didn't know it was that obvious, but thank you.

Yes. To me it's very clear and I guess I look at Arena, Right. So we'll shine a spotlight on the work that you've done with her, world number one female tennis player. Right. So to get to that point, something has to happen. Most players don't ever get there and that's because world number one is not supposed to be easy. So they have to perform above the standard norms, way above, above consistently over the long term. So to me there's a recipe for that. There's something that you've got to push through. Most people won't get there. I think through my experience with athletes and performers, through fear, fear of failure, fear of disappointment, fear of letting others down and it just eats them up and they just don't self actualize for you. With arena, were there ever times where you're like, there are going to be fears. You're human. If we push through those, you're going to start to see your performance consistency lift.

The short answer is yes.

Yes. Actually that was one of the biggest.

Things for her is, I'd say specific for her. And this is actually pretty common sort of with people who are from the region, like these Eastern bloc countries especially because I've worked with a lot of these, you know, people from like Soviet Union type countries and Russia and Kazakhstan and you know, there's all these Eastern bloc countries.

Is they have this real genuine fear of losing everything. Right. Because it's just how they grow up. It's like, you know, they have to work really hard, nothing's guaranteed. And if you start to be successful, it can just be taken away from you. If you talk about it, you let people know about it, it's going to be taken away from you. Right. So there's this genuine fear from childbirth basically onwards that like, you know what I mean? Like any, at any moment I can lose everything. So she has this real genuine fear of just losing everything. And, and if you talk about something, you say something out loud, you know, hey, don't do that. You know, you know, we have this Thing about, you know, you have goals, like, tell people your goals and, you know, this and that. Yeah. You know, you know, verbalize your things and, you know, for them, it's like, if I do that, it's going to go wrong. Well, that's kind of like a Mantella. So, again, that's a coaching thing. You know, when I work with people from all over the world, and people are people, but they do have some differences, culture, like, you know, kind of how they, you know, if you understand that background, you understand why they might think a certain way or see things differently than, say, you or I. But her. Her fear was like, that fear of losing everything. Genuinely thought she'd, like. Like she didn't practice a certain amount of time, she would forget how to play tennis. Like, she'd just not be able to play ever again. Or if she starts to earn a certain amount of money or get a certain, you know, level that, like, it could just be taken away from her. So she had this, like, real fear. And the same would be addressing any physical, technical things in her tennis because, like, you know, the technique, the feel, a lot of athletes, you know, that's a very precious thing. Like, don't mess with it. Don't think about it. Don't talk about it. You know what I mean? Because it might, you know, it might go wrong. I might, like. Like, something might get in my head. I'll never be able to do the shot again the same way. And so I'll tell you. I'll slow down. I'll tell you a little story. So this is my sixth year with Arena.

Wow.

You know, we had a lot of different ups and downs and some big obstacles and challenges like, you know, how to go through to get her to where she's at now. But there was a period for years where we got her up to a pretty high level, and she was getting, you know, winning old titles, you know, like, you know, premium events and bigger events. But at the Slams, which is what she really wanted to win, she just lose early rounds all the time. She'd be dominated everywhere else. She show up to the Slams, boom, gone, second, third, fourth rounds, like, just done nothing. And it was like, what the heck? Everywhere else, everyone's terrified of her because she would just destroy it. But it was a no everyone was talking about. Every media, everybody knew that a slam, you know, she's done. And so one year, and after all the, you know, events, we always sit down, you know, win or lose the championship, we sit down the next day and just talk you know, debrief kind of thing. And it's French Open one year, breakfast the next year. We're just talking and, you know, same thing was happening, you know, same thing as always, you know. And the short version of the story is that we spoke for quite a while, actually. It was a long, long talk. And I remember a couple things happened during this talk. Is her realization that, like, what was happening to her is because she was competing in this complete state of fear. Like, just she was in deep fear. Everything was a threat to her. So there's no challenge, you know, none of this. It was all just a complete fear state. And she's asking, what can I do? It's like, well, it's too late. When you're there and you're in that place, it's nothing. You know, you just try to hack your way through it and see what happens. But at that point, you're not in control. The fear is dominating. It's controlling you. That threat, you're just done. So we have to figure out, well, where is that coming from? We have to figure out over time, how can you catch it earlier before it's too late? And then, and then, only then, we can start to figure out what to do about it. But first we need to figure out what the heck it is. And we figured out, just chatting, that it was just, again, it was a fear state. She's in a threat state and where that was coming from. And it was funny because she kept asking me, like, well, what do I do, but what do I do about it? And I was like, listen, just, I don't know. I don't know. You don't know. Nobody knows. But that's not the point of what we're talking about right now, where it's trying. It's just becoming aware of this is what it is. So as soon as you know what it is and we can kind of name it or label it, then we can start to figure out a solution around it. But right now, you just have all these things in your head floating around with no clarity about what is the actual problem or why. And then we can figure out where it's coming from. And so we just kind of walk through that a little bit. And the point is, I just had a letter. Know is like, listen, from day one, this is what we've been working on is you're having to find a way to let yourself be a little bit more vulnerable each time. Just crack open that big giant freaking iron wall of, you know, I'm going to protect Myself and everything I have. And I'm going to let nothing and nobody in. All right? You got to just open up a little bit, be a bit more vulnerable and let yourself kind of be exposed to certain things. Let yourself go through things, Let things in a little bit. And until you can be a little bit more vulnerable, this is going to keep happening the same thing. You gotta keep running into that wall over and over again. And anyway, so we talked a lot about that, helped understand that. It was like, this is a fear that you're in. It's too late. This is some things that you could do to manage it. But it was more just this awareness. I didn't give her an answer about do this. I on purposely, I was like, no, there's no answer. That's why you don't like, talk about it. Get it out of your head. And there was, there was a moment where she stopped. I was saying something. She goes, wait, whoa. I was like, well, what happened? She's like out of nowhere. And I was like, what? What is it? She's like, I just realized, like, we were talking about some pretty big things about her goals and why. Why she's doing what she's doing. And she's like, I've literally never one time in my entire life has said this out loud. Like, what? She. We were just talking about. She was like, I've never said that out loud ever. She was just. And you could see her eyes. She was just like, my God. Like. And all these things that were in her head, she was just talking. She was letting it out. Right, okay. Being a bit more vulnerable, just talking about things. So this is the best part of it all. She got it out of her head. So it became more real or unreal. Like, she realized, like, oh, and during that conversation, she pretty much solved most of her issue. Right. She kind of became more aware because she was just letting it go and we're just kind of walking through it. And then two weeks, three weeks later was Wimbledon. She got to the semifinals.

Unreal.

So many weeks later, it was U.S. open semifinals. Right? And then pretty much since then, we've been in the finals or winning the Slams.

Amazing.

What's that?

You unlock that. Like, to me, you're the ultimate coach. Because the ultimate coach doesn't go, this is what I know. I've got experience. You must do this. The ultimate coach creates a space, a safe space for conversation and awareness and self discovery.

Yes. I mean, I mean, it's not about me. Yeah. I do it. It doesn't matter. I can. You know, it's like we're both parents, we both know our kids are going to learn by what we do and how they feel, not what we're telling them. You know what I mean? And no one's going to believe anything out of other people's mouths more than what they believe comes out of their own mouth. You know what I mean? So you have to just, you have to, man, like, like. And that's, that's the scary part is I find a lot of coaches, they want to show that they're valuable and give you all the answers and tell you all the information. So look, they do more than they're really. That even needs to be done, right? Whether it's the trainers or the physios or the coaches, just to say, like, oh, look, I'm working, I have value. It's like, well, no, you just do what's needed to be done and let them figure out the rest. They need to go figure this out for themselves. Yeah, that. As simple as that. Like, that's how they get there. It might be difficult, it might be.

Scary because you have to trust that they're going to trust you and to follow through that. But if you want to get to that next level, you have to go through that process. And yes, you're gonna have clients. You can have your, your managers and leaders and business people and your coaches and your, all these people. You're gonna have someone gonna be like, no, I want you just give me the magic, you know, the magic pill. Give me the answer, give me the three step process and I'll go get it. Right? You're gonna get those guys and sometimes you can give them some of that stuff, but that's fine. They're going to come and go and at some point something's going to click in their head. They're going to realize, okay, I got to do some work. Like, it's got to come from me, not from like someone telling me something. So, you know, I just don't waste the time with, with. I'm going to hold your hand, you know, I mean, I'm going to stand over here right next to you, shoulder to shoulder, right by your side. I'm going to go through it with you. At the end of the day, I'm just going to give you a little bit of nudge and it's your job to go through the door. It's not my job to like walk for you. I don't have that time. I'm too old for this stuff.

Like, you unlocked that for arena, and she's carried on and she's so consistent and doing great. Let's focus on you for a second. When in recent years, or maybe there's many years ago, was there a period where you had a fear, a deep seated fear that was holding you back? How did you navigate yourself through that?

Oh, I mean, I have no fear. Not joking.

You know.

I'm trying to think of something, but before you finish the sentence, I already, I already had a feeling of what it was and I was like, almost didn't want to say it, didn't want to admit it, to be honest, because it's something I still struggle with to this day, even in this conversation, even though I'm like. And sometimes it's. I think that's why I'm like. I kind of get on a tangent a little bit, is that it's like, it's not really. I don't know if you call it a fear, but it's definitely this, this thing inside of me that's always trying to, like, hold me back. And it's that like, like some of the stuff you said about, like, you've given me some amazing compliments and I really appreciate it. And the things that you sort of observe and you, you see him from what you saw what I do, and I'm like, like, but how, like, why? Like, it's just me. Like, I'm not, like, it's. I'm not. I don't think I'm doing anything special. I'm just thinking what I'm doing, what we're supposed to be doing, right? This is what coaching is supposed to be. This is what helping people is supposed to look like. You know, this is not an easy thing to do. There's no black and white, you know, all the time. You know, sure, we like to systemize things so we can present it to look like we know what we're doing. But at the end of the day, it's not really like a, you know, linear process. It's very messy and, you know, all over the place sometimes. But I think for me, that's probably the biggest thing is just, you know, that fear of like, well, do I really belong here? You know, I didn't, you know, when I was younger, especially because I didn't go through the normal sort of process, you know, I didn't follow the traditional sort of path to get to where I am, you know, and so that was probably always something in my head, really was more like, you know, what if it doesn't work out What? I don't really belong here. What if people find out, you know, that I'm not, you know, an academic of, you know, I have three PhDs and I didn't go to this school because, you know, some countries, especially like in the us, everyone you meet back in the day, it's like, hey, where'd you go to school? Was like the first question. Like it matters, you know what I mean? Like, I don't care what school. I know a lot of very, very. I mean, I know some knowledgeable people. Like, the information that they know is incredible, but they can't do anything.

Yeah.

They don't get results. They have no understanding of, like, people skills, no understanding of, like, interacting, of how to, you know, I guess those soft skills, maybe you call them, right? Like the art of what we do, how to apply the information they have. They have like this massive toolbox, but they don't know how, how and when to use what tools. Right. Unless it's like in a fixed environment where it's like, I'm teaching this or I'm presenting this, then they can kind of put it into their structure and they go, hey, look at this. All this stuff. I know. And. And then we, as, you know, people who are actually out there doing things, we understand that, like, okay, that's great information. And then you might take parts of that to go figure out how to apply for. For James, for Arena, for Anton, for, you know, Jared, for whoever you're working with, you know, and you. And you just put it out there and test it and see how it goes, you know. Anyway, I guess that's my biggest fear is just that. Sorry.

Yeah, I was going to ask you about that fear again. So I look at a psychological thing that most of us have is. Is so imposter syndrome, psychologists have labeled it. It's a big thing.

Sure. Yeah, yeah.

We've all experienced it. I mean, I've had prime ministers sit down beside me and I've interviewed them, and at the end they'll turn and go, how was that? Was that all good? And I'm like, are you serious? That was amazing. Like, you've spoke a million times with way better, you know, interviewers and, you know, you've been on big pages. Like, why are you asking me that? And I didn't ask him that. I just thought that I was like, yeah, you were great. But it said to me that no matter what station we get to in life, there's always a sense of, geez, I don't really know everything. I don't have all the answers. I don't really know what I'm doing sometimes. Will people find me out. So how do you continue? Because some people that eat them up and they don't step up to the next role, they have an opportunity to work with an arena type. Arena Sabalenka. No, I can't do that. No way. I'll definitely be found out if I do that. But you've done it. You've went ahead and done it and went. Actually, it works. Clearly there's something that I do that's helpful. How did you make the step into your fears and into those roles that potentially could have crumbled you?

Yeah, this is an easy one for me, actually, to be honest. This is an easy answer is that it goes back to probably two things. Maybe two big things. One is what I keep saying is that, like, I'm just, I stick to my values, I stick to what I know. I stick to who I am. So my character, who I am, what I understand. Simple as that. I understand what I understand and I understand what I don't understand and also know. Right. And so I. Whether I'm going, like right now, if you say, hey, Jason, there's 500 people out here in this stadium and they want you to come out and talk right now. Yeah, like 30 minutes, you need to go blow them away. With what? Just whatever you want to do. Go. I would say, oh, okay, let's go. And I would just go do it. Right. And I would, I would be. Of course there'd be like the, you know, different feelings and emotions behind that. I'm like, oh, God, you know, and. But I would go do it and I would probably do it really well. And the same with all these other people and these opportunities that come up. And the reason why is that I always know that I am not afraid to say, you know what? I'm not sure. Let's go find out. I know someone who's actually better at this part or has more experience with that. This is what I think. But let's just go double check and see what they think and then we can kind of go from there. We'll make a decision to plan from there. Right. So I don't pretend I have all the answers. I don't pretend I know everything. I. Yes, there's a few things I'm very good at and, you know, some people might say specialize in, but I've always looked at myself as more like a master generalist. You know, like, I understand a lot of different things. About a lot of different things. I don't need to be the expert on everything. But what I want to do is make sure that I know who I can go ask questions to, Right? I want to make sure whoever I'm working with understands that, like, hey, this is what I'm great at. This is what I'm good at, and these are the things I'm not too sure about. And if those things come up, we'll figure out a solution for those things together, right? So I'm not going to pretend to know everything. So that one, it builds trust with my people. They know that, like, I'm not going to tell them something, that if I don't really believe it, I don't really know it. The going on the stage example I gave, like, if you say, hey, Jason, go ahead and do it now. Well, every time I speak, I only present things that I have experienced and I truly understand, like, from my perspective. And if someone in the crowd or audience or the group has a question or challenges what I'm saying because they have a different view, I don't take that as offensive or like, oh, no, I'm being caught. It's like, wow, you know what? I actually never thought of it like that. That's actually a really good perspective. That's very interesting. You know, I'm gonna go find out. Hey, what are you doing after this? Can we talk some more? I want to know, how did you figure that out? Because I don't know how I didn't see that before.

I'm not. I don't.

I'm not afraid of, like, just saying, look, man, I don't know. I'm not sure. Even sometimes when I am sure.

Let'S just double check. So that's why I'm not afraid. Because I'm not pretending to be something I'm not. I'm just who I am. And I know I'm not going to be the answer for everybody. I know I can't fix everything. I know I have limited control on what's going on, but I can make sure that, myself included, this is what my role is. No matter where I'm working or I'm with, my job is to make sure I get the right people to do the right things at the right time. That includes myself. And so wherever I'm working, I also put checks in to make sure that I'm also being looked at from those things. Am I doing the right thing at the right time, the right way? And then we can kind of making sure that it's happening. So, you know, I think you just have to set the table from the start. Say, look, this is, you know, my expectations of what's happening. What are your expectations of what's, you know, of me? And then we go from there. And that's been set from the beginning and I stayed true to myself and true to this, the setting that we created, then what do I have to worry about?

There's no ambiguity. Everyone's on the same page.

Yeah. And if I keep preaching to my people that like, you only get better by trying something that is difficult for you and, and you're going to probably fail and then you're going to figure more things out and they're going to fail again. How can I tell people this? But then I'll go do it myself.

So how, how can I be afraid of taking that opportunity or taking the next step if then I'm not leading by example, I'm not leading to my values, what I'm teaching people. Right. So again, if I have any fear or hesitation, I look back and go, well, like what I tell my kids, which, you know, my son, I think I told you in our conversation about the basketball when he was like getting down about it, it's like, well, what would you tell a friend if they're in that same situation? Have some self compassion for yourself. I look at myself. I always look at myself first. So I don't have the fear because it's like, I mean, I have the fear, but it doesn't stop me.

Yeah.

Because I understand I have to face those fears. If I really want to lead by example and if I really want to help the people around me and bring a whole bunch of people along with me, then I have to go through those things. I can't give people what I don't have, or I at least haven't tried. I don't have to be the best at it and succeed at it. I don't have to be. I've worked with so many athletes in different sports, help them, have other athletes in different sports become number one in the world. I've helped other people become world champions in different environments and different, completely different types of sports. I've walked in and worked with vice presidents of countries. I worked with it like just like I could just walk in. And I do that because it's just, they're just people. Right. And, and I still again stay true to who I am. And we just go through this together.

You cannot give what you do not have. When you said that was so powerful, that's I love that. And that's true. You mentioned something about fear and I think this almost when I think of you, it's almost like this would be brand adjacent. So you said I do feel the fear, but I do it anyway. So to me, the definition of that is courage. Courage, if you define courage, is feeling afraid but doing it anyway. So to me that's like brand Jason courage. Like get out there, do it, get after.

I have to write that down so I can use that. That's good. But it's true, like you just have. That's the biggest thing for Arena's her progression. So that between those, those two semifinals that I told you about, and then when she went to the finals, to the WTA Finals that year and beat the world number one, two and three that year. Sorry, that was a different part. So the following year, which was two seasons ago, terrible season for her, she broke more records on double faults and serving her serve was a mess and everyone knew it, right? And her, you know, she kept showing up week after week knowing that she was like just lost and the whole world was watching. The whole world was making fun of her. She's double faulting. She's breaking all the records, all the bad records you can break, she broke them all, right? And then we knew what their thing was and this was her, her biggest going back to, you know, I tell you a story about how this all switched. So we were climbing up over the years, got to number two, was there for like a quite a while. And then we had this year in 2022 with all the serve was a mess, Just double faulting everywhere, you know, rankings dropping, losing everywhere, the same exact, you know, thing over and over again. I didn't travel much that year. I was having some health issues and I was, you know, in out the hospital a few times. So I was mainly just doing this video chat thing. And near the end of the year I went, I went to travel and there was a tournament again in San Jose. She lives the same way. She's crying, she's angry, she's upset, she's hurt, she's confused, she's scared, all those things. And I just looked at the guys like, listen, guys, I'm taking over. This is not happening anymore. Because we knew the problem was that she needed help with her sir. But we knew the other problem was that she was so terrified of addressing it and talking about it and working on it because she might lose it, right? Even though it was gone, right. The fear was still too much power. So she did Everything faced every humiliation, every fear, week after week, showing up in front of the world, embarrassing herself. So she is a fighter. She was willing to do all these things, but she wasn't willing to do that one thing. That was the real fear of hers, which was to sit down and have someone break down her serve and teach her all those little things about what she needed to do physically, technically, to fix her damn serve. Because. So I brought in a. There was a guy I already knew about, knew of, and I was trying to get him in, and I finally said. It was like, listen, she's like, she's talking. I let her do all the talking. And then she's like, what? And I said something. And then she goes, what? I've done everything. We've done. We have done everything. There's nothing else to do. I go, that's not true. You know that's not true. There's one thing we still haven't done. And this is. This has to happen, or we might as well just quit the rest of the season and maybe just be done, period. Because there's no point in keep doing this over and over and over again. So she finally said, okay, let's do it. And that was the moment where she finally addressed a real fear. And then. So we finished that year still in the top five somehow. That was when she went to the finals and beat the world number one, two and three, Right? And then she won the Australian Open. The first year. That first year. Incredible. And then last year, she was number one. She got to number one in the world for a little while. She's number two now, but it's just points, you know, goes up and down a bit. She was at all the finals. She just. She did every. She. It was like decades since the last woman had done what she's done for in a season. Right? And it wasn't just that the technical thing was important. The reason, from my perspective, I didn't know. I'm not a tennis player. I don't know. I knew there was something wrong. We needed someone to come help, right? What I needed her to have is an understanding of, like, if she missed a serve or she hit a serve, why, what did she do or didn't do that made that happen? Because it goes back to what I said about stress and control. So she was out of control. She was. She's like, oh, I'm trying to. My toss, my legs, my hip, my wrist, my arm, like, I'm going to try to fix everything. So she had no clarity about what she needed to do to make it work. So I needed to get someone to say, hey, this is how it works. So when she misses a serve now or misses even a shot now, she can tell me exactly why she missed it. Oh, my left arm went out this way instead of that way. So guess what happens to her? Stress and all those voices in her head. Volume gets turned down. She has a sense of control because she knows what and why. And then she could do something about it. And now it's easier to manage her emotions because she has this technique part down. That was that one part that was still missing. She was good enough to manage and stay on the top, but there was some parts to go for that next level. The champion. And so this was just facing a real fear for her. Being vulnerable, being coachable on something that was terrifying to her. You couldn't say the word serve to her without her like being completely panicking. You know, I can understand that. And now here we are.

It's amazing the person that's listening or watching right now, let's be real that you've got a fear as well. So I hope that this story, this specific story about Irina here has helped you go, hey, I can face it. I might need to look at it differently. I haven't tried everything. And there's got to be other options out there. I like that you're like, it's non negotiable. We got to keep trying. What else have we not tried? You're driven. And again, it's the hunger. It's that hunger thing. Like, I'm going to keep going. And you come in, guys, this is a hot mess right now. I want to take over. Let's go.

That's right. This is what has to happen. So, like, that's been a big thing that, you know, she's spoken about as well and in other clients of mine is that like, it's really about learning what your real fear is and your real comfort zone, not the stuff that these superficial stuff people talk about and like, oh, you know, get out of my comfort zone or facing fears. No, no, the real one. Because, you know, there's one that you're lying to yourself about. You're like hiding. You're back to it. You're closing your eyes. And so I just tell it. It's like, listen, man, you need to turn around, open your damn eyes, look at your fear and just go. Just go. The only way to go through any pain and difficulty is through it. You can't wait for it. You can't hide from it. You can't go around it. All that does is make it stronger. The only way to get through your fears is to get through your fears, like, through them. So get the right people to do the right things, to support you, to get the. The right environment, the safe environment to allow you to expose yourself, right? To get through those fears, to face them and get through them. That's it. And that's the difference between everyone used to call, like, so going back to arena, oh, she's such a fighter because she used to win matches, she'd be down, like, basically the match is done, and all of a sudden she wins. Like, she, like, you put her in a corner, she just fight. But she was just a young fighter with a lot of emotion, right? You know what she's becoming now, slowly but surely, she's become what I would call the difference between a fighter and a warrior. You know what I mean? And that's a big difference. A lot of people are fighting them. A lot of people have a fire in them, a lot of emotion, a lot of, you know, skill and anger or frustration or whatever they use to fight, right? This emotion. But a warrior has all that and can think clearly and can take action better and make better decisions. That's what a warrior is. And the warrior will always look at their fear and go, okay, all right, let's see what we got. Let's see where we are right now. I'm going to get through this. And so that's what real fighting is. Real fighting is.

Looking at your fear, knowing that you're going to feel that way that everyone does and not being afraid of your fear, just going, listen, okay, this is not going to be comfortable. It's going to be frustrating. I'm going to be angry, I'm going to be hurt. I'm going to be all of those things, and I'm going to be okay as well.

What you've shared is really. It hits home for me when I think about my own things, and I'm sure for other people listening, it's. It's arriving for them at the right time in terms of what they're trying to deal with. So thanks for going deep on that and I want to honor your time and there's so much more we will.

And can talk about, but I think.

That'S going to be another episode because this has been just absolutely phenomenal. It's the only way I can describe it. And it's just, I've learned a lot. I deeply enjoyed it. So a couple of things before we Wrap up one. Somebody will want to reach out. Somebody's watching or listening. How can they reach you?

I mean, I guess you have the socials, the. You know, I have an Instagram account. You can, like, click on my. My site from there and there's a contact page you can. On LinkedIn. My Instagram thing is just Jason Stacy with no E. So S, T, A C, Y. There's no E Coach. So just jasonstacy Coach. Go there. There's a link to my website.

Brilliant.

You go to my website. My website is probably a bit long, you know, but it's called the coaching sweet spot dot com, so just go.

To the coaching show notes as well. We'll put all of those things in the show.

Yeah, sure, sure. And then my link is the same as Jason stacycoach. So you're getting those and just reach out to me and, you know, I think I mentioned this to you before, but I wanted to say if anyone in the. In the audience or anyone listening, you know, wanted to have a chat with me or see if I can, maybe there's something I could just help out or kind of put a direction to help them, kind of take the next step for them. Just reach out to me. Go to the contact page and just mention your. Mention the podcast, you know, lead on Purpose, you know, with James, and I'd be happy to hop on for, like, we'll do like a consultation for free. Just have a quick chat and see if there's something I can help you with. So just make sure you mention our boy's podcast here. Lead on Purpose. Thank you.

Thank you for offering that for the listeners. That's pretty damn incredible, actually. So it just says a lot about your nature of wanting to make a difference. Now, the last question I've got for you is this. We're going to fast forward many, many years into the future. You are highly aware that it's your last day here on Earth, and a very young person comes into the room, grandchild, great grandchild, perhaps. And they say to you, Jason, how do I lead my life? On purpose? What do you say to them?

How much time do I got? No, just. I'll be like, hey, write this down. There's a lot of stuff. Let's get a book. No, no, I mean lead on purpose. I mean, I think it's just how I've led my life, I guess. I think not in an arrogant way, I don't mean that way, but just, you know, start to understand who you really are, who you want to be. Right. Whether you're that person now or not. Whatever that means to you, where you want to be and who you want to be, how you want to be seen, and what do you want to be known for? And just live that way. Like, no matter how difficult it gets, just know what your values are and just live by them. Lead by example, you know, and a lot of stuff we talked about, about, like, listen, just listen to your gut, you know, have some compassion for yourself. Get out there. Just put yourself out there. I know I just said a lot of things, actually, but not amazing, you know, I think, I think a lot of it is just. Just, you know. Yeah, yeah, just. Just be who you are and just live it and just let it grow and just feed it, you know, Know who you are and just. And make sure, no matter what, just live that you have to. You gotta be, because that's the only way people are gonna see, like, like you've mentioned about me, like, you, you feel like I'm, you know, all these things you, you know, give me compliments about. It's like, well, because it just. It is me. Yep. I'm not, I'm not. I'm not regurgitating something I memorized or I read in a book or something. I'm just like, no, this is my experience. This is who I am, and I'm going to be that way. And so if you really want to get somewhere and want to help people or be successful, you know, you have to be true to yourself because people are going to see right through you otherwise. Right. Don't try to be something you're not, because one, you're going to cause yourself more stress, could be less successful. So just be who you are. Figure out the skills that you need to, like, be successful in that thing and just surround that whole thing with who you are, your values and your character, and people will notice and people will start to come and they'll follow you and they'll be loyal to you. Like, I, I would get dressed like myself, like, major. The large majority of people I've worked with still in contact with me, still want to work with me. You know what I mean? And so, And I, And I take that as the biggest compliment of all. It's like, okay, it's just because I, I am who I am. You know, if you and I make a commitment and a better. Some better opportunity comes up, I say, no, I've done that more than many times in the. Over the years. It's like, well, no, you and I, I have a commitment to you. Right now. So you and I, James, this is what we're going to go through. Doesn't matter what, like, you know, what this could have been or could be. It's like, well, no, we need to do what we did because I committed to this and you committed to me, so how could I not do the same for you?

Honestly, it's really profound advice and there'll be someone listening right now that needed to hear those exact words and be congruent, be yourself and get out there and get after it. And it's not about talking, it's about doing. Jason, I want to wish you the best for the season ahead, for the year ahead, both on field and off field. And I don't think this will be the last time that we have you on the show, that's for sure.

Yeah, I mean, I appreciate it. I mean, I'm happy to share some more. Like I said, there's so much we could talk about and I hope people do get something out of it. You know, it's kind of went all over the place, but, you know, I get excited. I love this stuff.

So now it's been a reason.

If you have any more questions, you know, if you or anyone has any questions, just please reach out. I'm here to help.

So amazing. Thank you.

Thanks for tuning in today and investing in your own personal leadership. Please hit that subscribe button. And I'd love if you'd leave me a rating and review. I've got some amazing guests lined up for you in the coming weeks and leaders, it's that time to get out there and lead your life on purpose.