Raelene Castle: Trailblazing Sports CEO on Leadership Under Pressure & the Israel Folau Controversy

I'd like to ship you a free copy of my book, Habits of High Performers. If you come and join the 2026 goal setting workshop, I will ship you one of these today. The link is in the notes. Please come and join me to set up the very best 2026 you could imagine. If you've set up goals in the past or New Year's resolutions and they haven't substantiated, I'm here to help you across all the key pillars of your life, nail your goals. I'll see you there. Welcome to the Lead On Purpose Podcast. I'm James Laughlin, former seven time world champion and now coach to entrepreneurs, CEOs, professional athletes all over the world. This show is for people who refuse to settle, people who are driven, people who want to grow, who know that there's so much more to learn and want to learn from the world's best. Each week I bring you insights from a special guest who's at the top of their game with whether they're in Formula one, whether they're a billionaire, whether they've started a company from scratch and take it to the top. I bring them to you so that you can rewire your mindset, take action and lead a life of purpose. Let's get started. You're about to meet an absolute boss. I flew up to Auckland to sit down in studio with Raylene Castle, former CEO of Rugby Australia and currently CEO of Sport New Zealand. She's phenomenal and has done everything you can imagine in the world of leadership and governance. She's had the highs, she's had the lows, she's even had the death threats. We're going to go into the detail of all of this and I know there's so many gold gems today for you in your life, in your leadership, in your mindset. So many stories and tools for resilience. So please sit back and enjoy the show. A very special thanks to NZ Mortgages for sponsoring this episode of the Lead On Purpose podcast. You can check them out at nzmortgages.co nz Raylan, a huge welcome to the Lead On Purpose Podcast.

Kia Ora. Thanks for having me.

It's such a joy to have you. You are a legend in the world of sport. What you've done blows my mind. You've smashed gender barriers. You are leading the way for us all. But it's not been all smooth sailing and I'm just really grateful that we get to explore your life, your career, your hopes and dreams for us Kiwis here, both in New Zealand and beyond. So I guess we'll start at the sport. Why has it played such a big part in your life?

I mean, it started with being brought up so Mum, dad, brother Ryan, and in our house, it wasn't something we talked about, it was really our religion. It was how we. Everyone watched the news, but we were super quiet to make sure we heard the sports news and understood what was happening. Dad captain the Kiwis, Bruce in the 60s and then went on to coach and, and also best lecture for the Kiwis as well. And mum went to four Commonwealth Games playing lawn bowls in the New Zealand team Marlan. So in our household it was, you know, what we did and what we engaged in. And for mum and Dad, I think it was their way of also starting to assimilate us into those social situations and environments. And, you know, for me, sitting around at the Mount Wellington Rugby League Club with the guitar, with Mori and Pasifika, actually singing and having fun and engaging in those deeply multicultural environments when I was only only 7, 8, 9 was became very normal. That was sort of the, the way that I got brought up to understand what inclusion and equity look like. And so it's just been a place where I've always felt really comfortable and had an enormous amount of learnings from. And I think that's the thing that's always resonated so strongly with me, the power of sport.

And with you on that. I mean, not every kid will get the opportunity to be surrounded by that level of athleticism and sport, community and culture. It's phenomenal. So you're sitting at the pinnacle in terms of leadership and sport right now. But staying back in your childhood, what are some of those lessons and experiences that you had that have really served you throughout your life?

Sport teaches you a lot of lessons that you either get by osmosis or get opened up opportunities that you might not always get in a traditional school environment or as you get into a career. So I think you get exposed to some really great leadership opportunities when you're much younger than what you might experience. You get an opportunity to perform and have your judgment, your performance judge. So that's actually life. That's the reality of how we go. You have to face winning and losing and learn how to be graceful when you lose and how you might have to stand up and make a speech after that loss and still be gracious and still understand what that looks like. I played sport to a reasonable sort of representative level. I was often the youngest person in that environment. So there was People that were older than me. So I had to find a way to engage. I got dropped halfway through a representative netball season. I had to deal with that. I had to go back to school and fess up to everyone that I got dropped halfway through a year. And that's a real pinch point, right? Cause you've got two options at that stage. You either go stuff you, I'm not putting myself back in that situation, or you go, I'm going to train really hard and try and get reselected, which is what I did. I went, I trained hard, I got reselected the following year. So when you break all of those things down, you've got leadership opportunities, you've got your own personal resilience, you've got an opportunity, how to deal with coaches and selectors that have dropped you, how do you engage, how do you learn through that process, how do you seek feedback into how you might take that opportunity and mature and grow into the following year? You're dealing with people who might be 10, 20, 30, 40 years older than you. So how are you relatable in those situations? What are you learning from? And that just in that competitive spirit, to want to be the best that you can be within the realms of your own capabilities and the recognition that maybe that's not for you, that path, or maybe that sport's benefit for you, or maybe you're an individual sport person or a team sport person. So I just can't speak highly enough, let alone the social cohesion, the friendships you make for life, the chances you just get exposed to. So I obviously am a huge advocate for it, but I'm also an example of someone that I don't think would be and have achieved and had the opportunity to do the leadership roles that I've had had without that grounding and experience I received through sport.

I really love hearing that and I love that you've stepped us through that, because as you were sharing the, the losses, the failures, the learning to deal with selection, non selection competitiveness, losing, all that stuff, I'm thinking how that would set us all up for future relationships, future job and work experiences where you don't get the job or you do get it and then you get fired, it just develops this muscle of resilience. And I think that when people are not exposed to sport, or in my case as a youngster, it was music and I was involved in a band, you don't really get an opportunity to learn, to fail. And what I'm seeing sometimes is some of our countries and world's top leaders are trying to come across as very polished and very perfect. And Teflon, they don't make mistakes. How important do you think it is to make mistakes and let our kids see us make mistakes?

Well, that's how you learn. That's the reality. And I think authenticity and honesty is more important than being perfect. So having the courage to employ people who are better than you, smarter than you, more expert than you, and having them as part of the team and trusting that you can lead those people is equally as important a skill as being the polished, perfect person that has all of the answers. And in all of the CEO roles I've done, I could never be the smartest person in the room on everything I get to talk about in any given week. I was only saying to a high performance athlete from New Zealand last week, you know, my diary would look like I'd have normal 40 hours in a week, you know, work 50 or 60 or whatever. But say, say I've got 35 meetings. Those 35 meetings will be about a different topic. So I can't possibly be the expert on all 35 of those things. But I do need to know what the right question is to ask. How to press, how to support people, how to show some EQ when they're having a really tough time and maybe the outcome's not the right thing to focus on in that moment. Maybe actually their welfare is the right thing to focus on in that moment. Actually also when to call them out when the behaviour's not good enough or they're not performing or equally exit that person from the business and have that in the front door, honest conversation. So, you know, the point is that all of those skills are important, but they're certainly not about being perfect. It's about understanding, being authentic and making sure people understand who the real Raylene is. And as a leader, I think that's critically important.

So important. And when we look at your CE roles, they're mind blowing. So from my understanding, one of your first CE roles was netball New Zealand here at home. And that would have meant something deeply to you because you played netball at such a high level. So how did you go from playing, playing in the game to go actually, you know what, I want to be an executive, I want to be leading the sport. What was that transition?

So I was, I was okay as a, you know, I played to representative level at an okay level and I was never good enough to wear the black dress, which, you know, I realized quite early, kind of with some of the other Contemporary sports like cricket and the likes were around now as a professional opportunity, then we're not. When I was going through, I quite like the look of cricket, but I always wanted to have a commercial career, so I did a Bachelor of Commerce. I had wanted to get into those commercial environments and achieve, I suppose, innately do the best with my skills and capabilities that I could do. I didn't know what that was, I didn't know how high a level that was. And to be perfectly honest, when I left school, I would never in a million years have dreamed that I could be a CEO, because I thought CEO was the smartest person. So I thought they were the person that got ducks and they were the person that was in the top 5% of the academic world. But when you lead at these levels, you realize that, yes, you need to be smart enough to be able to cope with the pressure in the conversation and have the resilience, but the softer skills, the EQ capabilities, the ability to make the hard decisions, the ability to juggle a lot of things all at once and still look calm and keep coming positively through all of those things are skills that are way more valuable in leadership than perhaps people realise. So I knew quite quickly that professional sports career wasn't for me. I had a Bachelor of Commerce, went into the commercial world, started my career at Xerox, which was 10 years the most amazing learning ground. And I say to the young people of today, in my time, Xerox was a lot like the Googles and Apples of today and they had great systems and structures, they had great sales training, they sent you on professional development opportunities. It was a really go get em culture about success and succeeding. So that period of time taught me a lot. And whilst I subsequently went on to work at the Benz Telecom, as it was in those days and the like, I'd always had a bit of a hankering to work in sport. And I'd had a couple of opportunities that had come and I'd been through processes but for one reason or another they hadn't quite landed. And then I heard the CEO of Netball New Zealand had resigned and applied for that role and was very fortunate to get appointed. And timing's everything sometimes. I mean, I'm a great believer that right place, right time, time being brave enough to step into the opportunity is also important because it's not just about.

Luck'S not all of it. You make your own luck, but you also do have to step through the door. Netball was in a a space of going from a sport that was Largely amateur, into semi professional, professional space with the ANZ Championship. And so it needed someone that had some deep commercial experience, which is what I bought. So whilst I had a huge family background and high performance and that was language. I underst. And new. It was really the commercial, my commercial experience that was attractive to Nepal, New Zealand during that time, I bet.

And in terms of that period of time in your career, what are you most proud of?

Well, it was the launch of the ANZ Championship, which the thinking and the process had been done before I arrived. So it was in a semi prepared state. We still had to finish, certainly all of the commercial arrangements, the broadcast deals, the completion of 10 teams, five in New Zealand, five in Australia. If you think about it, it's a deeply fascinating space to go to your biggest competitor, being Netball Australia, and say, let's collaborate and build a competition that will be good for netball in this part of the world. And, you know, getting into bed with your biggest competitor is not always something that makes sense. But there was some smart things done, like the board had three. Three. So three from New Zealand, three from Australia. So there was no, there was no vote. You could never outvote someone else. So we had to compromise. We had to discuss and debate and reach agreement to get to the outcome.

There was this sort of early twinkling of the women's sport and what that meant and what semi professional, professional sport looked like. And so the Trans Tasman nature of it, the fact that we could now have athletes who could earn a living, that could maybe work part time, but still study and come out of the end debt free and have had this experience. So that opportunity to put netball on the world stage in a professional domestic tournament, that was Trans Tasman, have athletes have those experiences. Something I'm very proud of.

Yeah, you should be.

And can I just say, James, I think the important thing is it's not me. Right. There was an enormous team of people, some really smart.

People with experience in bringing competition structures together and high performance opportunities, and made some really brave decisions. We had some governance that were really smart in that process as well. So you're only ever part of that jigsaw puzzle, but you end up being put to the front because you have CEO after your name. But actually it's the team behind the team that gets these things delivered.

Really well said. And not enough CEOs and former CEOs take the time to acknowledge that it's a team effort. It's not a me effort and certainly I've seen that in the past sitting down with some CEOs and leaders now, what would be the greatest lesson you learned from that part of your career? Was there anything that happened there? You're like, cool, learned, I'll not do that again. Or hey, learned, I will do that again.

Yeah, it's a really good question. I think when you're dealing, when you're going into an environment like Australia and you understand what the business environment's like and the commercial environment's like, it is a very different situation. Netball and Silver Ferns was held talked about in the same breath as rugby, cricket and netball. The diamonds at that stage didn't have that same level of profile. So how you take your experiences in a commercial sense in New Zealand and immediately be able to open doors, because you're talking about the Silver Ferns is not the same level of priority when you go into an Australian market and try and open doors and you know, to think about the diamonds in Australia. So, I mean that was certainly.

A learning. I think, you know, the equity of governance was super smart. I don't think that we probably realised how smart that was at the time so that you could have, you know, equity in decision making. You didn't have a dominant partner. So I think that was important. I think the piece that is challenging in a professional sports environment is what is the sustainability of that model and how do you have five professional teams in New Zealand? What does that look like in Australia? What does that look like? How are they sustainable? I think that's the pace, is the learning, is the depth of additional work you have to do to make sure your business model is not sustainable for two or five years, but potentially 15 and 20 years.

Yeah, long term. I like that long game approach and it's interesting. The next role after that was over to the Bulldogs, I believe, and the first female CEO of NNRL team. So let's explore that for a second. What was it like walking into a very male dominated sport at that level? Was that an easy transition? Was there friction? How are you feeling about it all?

Yeah, I mean it was, it was a dream come true in a lot of ways because of the context of dad's background in rugby league. And we had literally spent thousands of hours on a Sunday afternoon watching NRL Winfield cup as it was those days coming in. And so I deeply understood the game. From all those hours with Dad, I could identify all the great players and the most iconic administrators and personalities in the game. So whilst I was moving countries, which in itself was really difficult and I'll talk about that in a Second.

Arriving into rugby league was part but a dream come true. To work in an environment that I'd had such deep engagement. There's no doubt it was a career step for me. So it was a continuing positive step of my career. And to arrive at the Bulldogs, I'd done a lot of due diligence around what the right rugby league club might be and did a lot of work understanding whether the board genuinely understood what they were buying into with a female CEO. And in that, I didn't want it to be token. Right? So that's the worst possible place you can find yourself in. If they're going to have you there as a token female, then that's not a great place. And understand that they were genuinely committed to me as a CEO in the fact I was as female would just happen to be the fact I was female. My experience was what they were looking for and gave me a lot of confidence that they had my back to actually go in and do the job. And then you go into an environment where you've got a coach like Des Hesler, who has a public Persona of being a, you know, kind of crazy mad scientist, but actually was deeply supportive and didn't care that I was female. He just wanted to make sure he had someone that was going to do the right job for him. And he basically, when asked by the chair before they appointed me, was he okay with being a female, he only asked one question, and that was, is she capable of doing the job? And he said, yeah, I think so. And he said, well, why are you talking to me?

Amazing.

And we've had some. We had some really big, robust conversations, and some, you know, during that time as CEO and, and head coach, but, you know, the combination of some players, some Mori and Pasifika players in the playing roster, who gave me that auntie, you know, the eyebrow raise and the whole auntie made me feel really welcome. There was deep curiosity because female Kiwi, how is this going to land?

But that's not that abnormal. I knew there was a spotlight greater than if it had been a male just because a level of curiosity. But if what you find after six months is that the whole first female CEO thing disappears. So instead of going, oh, this, it's just railing Castle CEO, the Bulldogs. And so you take that out of the conversation, being female, because you just do your job. And I remember Jim Doyle, who was the Warrior CEO and also at the nrl, he got asked, what do you. How do you think Raylene will go as the first female CEO? And he said, well, Just like any other CEO will. She'll do her CEO job to the best of her ability. The fact she's female is irrelevant.

I love that kind of allyship of like, hey, we're in this together. It's a role. Doesn't matter what your gender is, get on with it. That's amazing. And moving to Australia, did you feel any cultural. I know we are very similar, we're more similar than we are different in terms of Kiwis in Australia. But were there any big differences for you in your leadership role in terms of public and scrutiny when operating as a leader in Australia?

I think the biggest thing that I didn't underestimate it was that I left my deep network behind. So where in New Zealand I'd been working in for 15 or 20 years, I suppose I could ring someone and get something done within one, look at my phone and find the right name and ring someone and get an answer to something or ask help me or support me. And I basically left all of that behind and arrived in a new city. And I really underestimated that. I didn't.

Understand how much of an impact on a daily basis and a weekly basis that network of how to get things done. Who's the lawyer that you trust? Who are you going to ring when you're looking for some advice on in the media space or, you know, public relations or, you know, advertising agency, you know, all of those things that you sort of need. Fortunately, I had some mates who rallied round and introduced me to a lot of senior people really quickly. And so then you ultimately form relationships with the people that you form a connection with or not. So that was important. You know, just the sort of casual after work glass of wine. Can I debrief on this? What do you think place I didn't have that. I didn't have that obvious connection of group of female and male colleagues that I could sit and decompress or discuss with something. So I think that's advice I'd give to someone moving is think about how you're going to unlock that network as quickly as possible.

And, you know, going into the environment, you know, I mean, there was, there was huge scrutiny and the fact that the Bulldogs have a very large Lebanese fan base, which is split either as Christians or as Muslims, was one of the most rewarding parts of being CEO of the Bulldogs. I learned a lot, lot about the Muslim culture, how very deeply caring people about their family and their faith and engaging and, you know, fan base that was crazy mad. They didn't drink alcohol, they Just had a great time anyway. Drums, dancing, having an amazing time. So. But they were curious because there is a difference, right, Having a female leader. So there was lots and lots of learnings and things that I.

I stepped into that I probably underestimated. But at the end of the day, all you can do is play what's in front of you. And I don't take, I don't think about being female when I walk in the door every morning.

I am, of course, but I don't ever. Don't bring it with me.

Doesn't define you.

I just do what I do. And if you walk in and you're a meeting and I'm the only woman in the room, more and more I've called that out now because I genuinely believe that diversity, be it cultural, be it gender, is an incredible, incredibly important part of success inside organizations. But it's never worried me to be the only female in the room. That's not something that I have ever felt unsafe or about. So I was comfortable to be there and have those conversations. But I do think it's a maturing of that equity lens which is really important in a modern day contemporary leadership environment.

100% agree. I want to hear you say what you just said. I think back to your parents and I've never met your parents.

But I imagine the way they raised you, they raised you to have self belief, self confidence, self esteem, self compassion. What was it about how they raised you that gave you that? You know what I am who I am, it doesn't matter what room I'm sitting in.

Well, I have a brother, Ryan, who's three years younger than me and we got treated exactly the same. So we both had to do the washing, we both had to do the dishes and we both had to learn how to use a hammer and nail and we both had to learn to change a tyre in the car until we were allowed to get out license and we had to learn to parallel park.

I love it.

So there was never any thought that there was girls jobs and boys jobs. There was jobs. Dad was a builder. So we worked on the building site in the holidays and swept up and did stuff. So there was that sort of innate girls can do anything. I don't think it was. It certainly was never a conscious sort of waving the bra around the top of your head kind of thing moment. It was just innately that mum and dad thought that there was no reason why there wasn't anything that I couldn't do that my brother couldn't do. So it Was. It was just normal. It was just normal. Like, I didn't never, you know, Mum mowed the lawns most weeks because dad was a builder and she liked the exercise and that was just what she did, you know. So it never occurred to me that there should be differentiation. And then when I got into a school environment, a coed school, there was an equal number of boy and girl prefects. Prefects and the like. So that never occurred to me that I couldn't be one of those people. And so, I don't know, I've just never really. It's never occurred to me that I couldn't do something. And I've probably been. I'm not quite sure where the bravery to step in to those challenges comes from. I mean, both parents played for New Zealand, right? They've got some resilience. That is important. And, you know, and Ryan and I both learned that, that that was about stepping into opportunities and learning from them whether you succeed or fail. But the most important thing, you just have to give it your best shot. Have to turn up fully prepared and ensure that you absolutely commit to it if you're going to do something. And I just think that's still us both in really good steep.

I can see that 100%. And I can also see that I see this with all high performers, whether it's business or sport, you got to make a lot of sacrifices. You got to almost suffer at times. And part of that was you had to literally uproot yourself from your country, move to another country. And that was part of your career progression and your commitment. And people often don't realize the sacrifices that, that leaders have to make make. And they see all the good things that the leaders get, whether it be salary or opportunities or whatever, publicity. So looking at the Bulldogs, what was the thing you're most proud of there?

Hey, James here. I wanted to take a quick moment to let you know about something. Look, I get asked to deliver keynotes and workshops for teams and companies all over the world, from London to Antarctica, from America to Australasia, from armies to small businesses to large corporates to sports teams. But I go in and deliver keynotes around the mindset of high performers, around the habits of high performers, about how we navigate change. If you would like me to come and speak to your team or speak at your conference or deliver a bespoke workshop, please get in touch with my team. Carolinejlochlan.com will be able to help. I'll also make sure that we put that in, in the show Notes.

We.

Made a grand final in 2014, so I started in 13, made a grand final in 2014, and it is the most extraordinary experience that you could imagine. And to have.

90,000 people at ANZ Stadium, 45,000 of them dressed in blue and white jerseys, the whole of Belmore, which is where our club headquarters were, in the whole suburb of Canterbury Bankstown literally in bloom and white people painting their weatherboard houses, blue and white stripes, painting their cars, blue and white stripes, getting two story decals on the front of their houses, partying in the streets. Like I said, no alcohol, just having an amazing time and it's such a safe environment and so much fun and so positive and we didn't win. So there's another great learning opportunity, right, because you have this swath of fans from all over, well, Australia, but also all over the world. Desperate, hadn't won1 since 2004, really keen to nail it. A group of men that have given their careers to get to this moment and not being successful, that's another really big leadership challenge. How do you pick yourself up and how do you go again? So I think that's one, but probably equal. As importantly, the Bulldogs have been through a pretty tough time with reputational. They'd been through a rape scandal, they'd been through a Sally salary cap scandal, and there was a resistance from mothers to lean into the Bulldogs as a family club. And so we did a lot of work in growing the female membership, making sure we had safe zones for families to buy memberships. So no alcohol zones, that we ran woman only events so that they felt that they could be part of the club. And we grew the female membership. It was about sort of 65, 35 when I started. And I think it ended up like it had been about, I don't know, 53, 47 by the time I finished. So the growth in the membership numbers, but also the growth in the fact that the mums making decisions for their whnau were happy to come in and lean in and be part of the Bulldog story. So over the four and a half years off the field, that was probably the thing I was most proud of.

What I love about it is when you speak about your career, there's clearly highlights and major successes, but you also talk a lot about the social differences that you make and that you are intent on being focused on. And whether you achieved all of those or not, they were so important to what you were trying to do. And I think that again, not all leaders think about social and cultural and all these Other things, they often just think about results. And so after that, you headed off to Rugby Australia. So one of the largest and probably most prominent CE roles in Southern hemisphere.

That I imagine would have been exciting, challenging. There would have been highs and lows that came with that. So why did you take that role? What was it? What was exciting about that?

Well, a lot of it was what you just said, but I think more equally as importantly as it was part of a global sport. So Rugby World Cup, 4th, 3rd or 4th biggest event, sporting event in the world. So to be part of a team that had great history, had won the Rugby World cup twice, had legends, iconic people in Australia who were household names, and then to be able to have an aspiration into play at a Rugby World cup in the growth of the women's game. There was a fledgling woman's product, both in the Sevens that had been to the Olympics for the first time, won a gold medal, and then knowing that there was a circuit where women could be equal to men playing in those environments, it was a package that was. It was exciting to be part of it. They'd been through an enormous governance restructure, so they had a fully independent board with four women on the board, four very iconic leaders, the likes of Anne Sherry, who'd been CEO of WESTPAC here in New Zealand and then held some really big roles in Australia. So women who were deeply capable board directors. So when you looked at a package, it was a really great opportunity to step in and see if we could build the success, rebuild really back to the place that it had been in the previous 15 years.

Incredible. And in terms of building, what were you able to achieve in your time there that you're proud of?

Yeah, I mean, it's always hard over a two and a half year period which was not that long. I think there was two aspirations.

One was to see if we could have a high performance structure in place that saw an aligned structure where little boys and girls could see a pathway to come out of club rugby into some kind of provincial rugby, into super rugby, into playing for the Wallabies or Wallaroos, and that that was aligned so that the super clubs were working together with Rugby Australia and what was an Australian style, much like, you know, countries like New Zealand and Ireland had had and has proven to be deeply successful over a long period of time. That was not as clear as I felt that it should be for a national body. And we did really well to get that signed and agreed so that all the Super Rugby teams lined up to a centralised high performance plan and structure. So that was engaged with some really smart people leading, you know, well respected in the world rugby environment. So really proud of that. And then ultimately the drive to want to see some free to air coverage for, for Rugby Australia and that was the only sport that didn't have free to air coverage behind a paywall. So that was an important aspiration and you know those parts probably on top of that is to see the women's game, you know, have a place where you could have some equity. And there was an opportunity for both men's and women's sevens. And we had an amazing new high performance facility built in by the New South Wales government in New South Wales. And it was truly world class. And to have the men and women training side by side in those environments and going off and trying to defend, certainly for the woman there, the medal at the Olympic games, but sit on the world circuit. And what that was doing to open up opportunities for young women who saw that want to play rugby but didn't quite know how to find themselves. That entry point was really important.

Hugely. And it's interesting when we look at leadership and leading on purpose, I look for leaders who are willing to, to not sit on a fence and stand by their values, stand by the people that they serve and represent. And of course one of the most talked about things in your career in terms of what you stand for was around Israel Folau and how he carried himself. So for those that haven't caught up on that or don't know about that, I'm sure lots have, but many, many haven't. I'd love you if you don't mind just talking to that for a moment and about your beliefs and values as a leader and the tough decisions you had to make.

Yeah. And for people to understand the story. Israel was our most highest played, most high profile player. He was of Polynesian descent, he was deeply religious. And inside the Wallabies we had a group who were largely Polynesian, but that had held deeply Christian values and the environment supported that. It was very important that they could have their mom to express their religious beliefs, be it pre game, be it in prayer circles, be it before and after games, be it in training sessions. And so that was deeply respected inside the Wallabies environment. But Israel sent a tweet which talked saying that gays would go to hell if they didn't repent. And so we had an initial conversation. So furor media, you know, blow up even everyone.

Everywhere. It's the classic sort of clickbait STORY Games Biggest player FEMALE CEO Lots of interesting conversations about religious bills happening inside the Australian Parliament. Prime ministers that have particular religious beliefs. So it was sort of like an interesting melting pot to find your way through that. So we had a conversation, Israel and I and I said to him that whilst we deeply supported his belief beliefs to be Christian, actually expressing his views in a public forum when he was a contracted wallaby was not appropriate if there was people who felt bullied or disrespectful by those comments. So he, it was like, great, no problem. So we had the conversation. It was all very, there was furor, there was all sorts of stuff going on and it was, it was very full on time. But ultimately Rugby Australia had a set of values.

Diversity and inclusion were part of that. The contract, the employment contract that the players signed had an employment had a diversity and inclusion policy attached to it. The expectation was that you live to that. So we agreed that that was, it was, it was a sensible, grown up, mature conversation. First mistake, understand the bounds. That's great, excellent. Committed that he wouldn't do that again. And unfortunately he did about a period of time, number of months later. And so then you find yourself as a leader in a situation. So that is really difficult, right, because it's not a religious conversation at all. It's a values conversation around a group of people that felt desperately bullied and not included. And as a CEO, I have a responsibility to provide a safe working environment. We had a number of staff that felt unsafe. We had a player who was using the platform that was our platform. So, so the Wallabies and Rugby Australia's platform to express his personal views. That's a problem. We had a set of values that we weren't living to. If we hadn't stood up for those, that would be a problem. And we had an employment contract and that employment contract said that you had to be compliant with the diversity and inclusion policy. And that had been breached for the second time. And so ultimately, as a leader, you have to make the decision that you think is a values based decision for the good of the organisation. And so for all of the big media furore and the really big complex conversations, it was, the decision was simple, the fallout was not simple. So how you navigate through that was. Was very difficult because everybody had an opinion and everyone was writing about it on the back page of the paper. And where I was getting chased down the streets by media, literally going into hearings and having, you know, literally a media scrum chased me down the street. I had death threats had the social media abuse was horrific. And my advice would be if you're in the media, don't read the media. Have someone else read it for you and give you the precis of what they're saying so that you understand and certainly don't read social media. Have someone else read it for you and give you a sense of what they're saying so you understand it. But actually if you read the level of vitriol and personal attacks, you probably wouldn't get out of bed in the morning. Right. Because it's, it's really not great, you know, so all of that was really difficult. But ultimately, you know, sometimes as the leader you have to make a decision because I think if you run the scenario the other way and that we hadn't terminated his contract, the Fural would have been no different. Of course it, it would have been equally. There would have been the other half of the conversation who would have been equally disturbed that you hadn't made a decision and lived to the values of your organization. So you know all the good business things about in consultation with the board and the staff and communication and making sure our sponsors and our partners were all kept informed about what we were doing and why we were doing it and the rationale and the process and being very calm and considered and all of those things were all happening in the background. And you know, I mean, I really wish, I wish it hadn't happened. I wish we could have found a way where he could have found his place so that he could express his views in a way that was respectful. What we believed was respectful for our contracts and our environment and our values. Because I'm deeply supportive of people that have their religious views, that's fine. But when you from the issue was that when we had a group of people that felt deeply affected by that, then that is not okay. As a CEO, I have to make sure that everyone is our organisation feel supported, just not a certain portion of that population. And I think. James, just to finish, I think my biggest learning is that many companies have diversity and inclusion policies, but actually providing a place where people can be truly diverse and be themselves and express their views in a safe way, where they feel included is an enormous leadership challenge. And as our countries become more multicultural and more people find their voice, trying to find that space where everyone can be included and feel that they're heard and understand that there's bounds around you can't just because I'm diverse, therefore I've got a particular view, there's got to be Some bounds under which you can share those views. But when you share them in a positive, constructive way and express and have the good, honest debate in the front door, that's a good place for our world to be in. It's a good place for New Zealand to be in. It's a good place for our world to be in. But as a leader, you have to provide that safe place, and that's hard. That's not as easy as quickly writing in a diversity and inclusion policy.

I'm with you. And it's, you know, it's looking back on that, you know, arguably your best player gets sent, hey, sorry, this is not the right bus for you. You're gonna have to find another bus. You, you didn't adhere to our standards. And twice. And I guess from a leadership standpoint, the standards that you walk past are the ones that you now accept. And so if you had to let that slide, all of a sudden, that's okay. Anything kind of goes. Doesn't matter what our standards or values are. Now let's take it back to Raylene, who was getting the death threats, the media mobs, the social media nonsense. How was it being you sitting at home in those evenings?

Well, that's where your plot nearest and dearest are so important. Greg, my partner, was behind me, beside me all the way, and just really supportive. So I think having that close personal connection and that safe place is important. Having your family who care about you is difficult because they're also deeply worried about you because they're reading all of these things and they were in New Zealand, so that Tasman Sea, away from that conversation. So that's a difficult place. And so you do spend some time trying to keep them updated, but telling them you're okay, so you're worrying about them, worrying about you, worrying about them. So that's, you know, an interesting dynamic. But having the group of trusted advisors, be it your family, be it your mentors or sponsors or whatever language you like to use is really important. So the people that you can go to and test stuff with, with, and will say to you, honestly.

Keep going. This is hard, but it's the right call. Or, actually, I'm not sure you've got that one quite right. Or have you thought, could you think about this differently? Could you approach it in a slightly different, could you change your language in the media? What could you do? That group of advisers is hugely important because when you're in the middle of the whirlwind like that, you don't have time to stop and Think and reflect. It's not, not till afterwards that you get a chance to slow down. But having that group of people is really important. The other thing I'd say is having a public relations expert who is not inside your organization. So something having someone who's external, that understands your style and your approach, that can look at 10,000ft, all of the things that are going on and give you some advice about how you might take the next step or move into the next environment is hugely important. And I've seen that happen to other. I was lucky to have that and it saved me. It saved me my mental health, I suppose as well to have that. But also I knew I was getting really good advice because your internal people with the best will in the world are caught up with the views of what's happening internally. So they are really good and capable for some parts of it, but actually other parts of it, I think having that external advice is hugely important.

Golden. And what about in terms of the mental health, the stress side of it? Did you have any tools? Whether it was therapy, whether it was meditation, whether it was exercise, good food, what. Were there any tactics that you were like, I got to stick to this routine. This is going to be good to help me navigate this.

So I'm the least routine person you'll ever meet. I hate routine like it actually is. What would would see my mental health mental if I had to follow a routine? So I. So I'm not very good like that. No doubt some exercise is important, certainly some wine is important and that might sound flippant and I don't mean it to, but the chance to decompress and actually have a discussion over a or two glasses of wine, not a bottle, but, you know, actually have that decompressed moment to be able to engage with those people. I discuss whether it was Greg, whether it was those advisors, whether it's a girlfriend who doesn't care care what you do for a job. She's just interested in thinking about the latest Vogue magazine and who was on the front cover or did you see that pair of shoes? Or what were the sporting results. Being able to be as normal as you can and realising that it's not who you are, it's what you do and it's not. That stuff's not who I am. I have a job that requires me to do those things, but being able to separate those two things I think is really important. The other thing is ensuring that you're bored if it's a CE role, but if it's not and that you've got the support behind you so you're not having to look in two directions. So when you're fighting something significant, a crisis management type situation, what you don't want is to be also having to look behind you and go, are the boards splintering? Are they not aligned on this? Are we. Am I having to over manage them to make sure they stay on track? So if you can make sure they're tucked in behind you because you. You've agreed on the position and the place to take it forward, that certainly helps with dealing with what's coming in the front door much easier.

Such good advice. Raylan, what drives you? I see you as a very driven, motivated, determined, passionate human. And I don't bump into people like that all the time. It's really unique. What is it that drives you?

I'm somewhere innately competitive, and I think that's just who I am. And coming out of the family I have, it's no surprise.

Somewhere in the future when they read a eulogy, I just want them to say, she made the most of every opportunity. And that's all it is. Because I think there's so many amazing opportunities you get in life to step in. And if you think about the career opportunities I've had, all of those things have happened on the surface as a job, but the supporting experiences that I've had as part of that, to go places and meet different cultures and engage with different people and be presented with different challenges to try and solve has just been, you know, it's been extraordinary. So it's the personal satisfaction to maximize the talents that I've got. Not of. Not of all of. Which, as I said right back when I left school was innately obvious to me. So the doors have opened up differently than I thought they might.

Incredible. Want to go to 2015 and think about, you know, the honor that was bestowed upon you, which was New Zealand Order of Merit. Quite incredible. New Year. Is that New Year's Honors?

It was actually New Year's, yeah.

Incredible. So that happens to a very, very small handful of humans. What did that mean to you when you knew that that was coming your way?

It was amazing. I got the letter. So you get a leader, and it's got.

His Royal Majesty HRM or something on that envelope. I'm like, oh, my God, is this like a really bad speeding fine or something? Like, haven't you know, that I haven't paid? And now it's got escalated. So you open it and you sort of can't quite believe it and then they also tell you that you can't tell anyone. So I told Greg, obviously and I actually rang my mentor and said I'm not really sure I should accept this. And I don't. I'm not being overtly modest right when I say that I just felt that I was at a stage in my career where I didn't know. I still felt that I had a ways to go and I felt like it was really early and so, so he said to me, did you pick yourself?

And I said, well, no. And he said, well, you didn't pick yourself. It's a rigorous process. They've gone through that. So it was incredible. I think it was incredible recognition for my family, for the wider family, for Greg and my brother Ryan and mum and dad to be there. That was really important to be able to celebrate with them and for them to be able to be part of that, that, that recognition. But you know, as I said before, you only get there because of the great people that you've worked with and the opportunities and the help and support that, that they've given you to get there. So whilst it might sound a bit sort of toy to say you accepted on behalf of a lot of people, in reality you're only there because of the support you've had from those people.

Beautiful, no, well deserved. It's incredible to see that you did get it and that you did accept it. I know that's all part of it, you can be given it, but you have to accept it. So I'm glad that you did. And you know, I think about your career and where you're headed and I wonder what keeps you up at night. And as a human or as a leader, what are the things that you stress about, worry about, get angry about, you know, concerned about what are those things?

I get concerned about the lack of inclusion. So I think we've come such a long way that we want to keep that positivity going about what it means to accept people for who they are, to make sure everyone's included in the conversation, that people have tolerance for different views and perspectives. I get really cross when people don't come in the front door and have those conversations. It's okay to have a different view. I think that old fashioned, good, honest debate that is about my opinion, your opinion, listen, and we end up with a better outcome because actually we've all moved along little bit to move the conversation forward. So the focus on always winning and getting, ensuring that winning is the major focus in the debate or discussion as Opposed to saying, how have we brought everyone with us through that discussion? I think that's important.

The complete lack of news.

Not opinion news. How do I find this truth source of this happened today in Gaza or Israel or Ukraine or China. And I can make my own judgment whether I like or don't like that. It's very hard to find that factual news source where I can. I grew up, it was compulsory in our house. Get home, do your homework, eat dinner, watch the news.

And it was great, right? So the general knowledge that I formed because of that, 15 years at school, nearly watching news and across the world, including all different sports and you know, different political environments that were happening internationally. And I fear for our young people who don't get given or the opportunity to understand those because they get fed through things on their social media feeds with deep algorithms. And you know, I, through this last presidential election, which I, I watched intently with interest from, from an interested bystander point of view, I listened to a lot of podcasts to understand perspectives. I wish I could go back and do that as a Republican and follow the threads that happened to me. If I initially started following the other side of the discussion to see where it would have taken me, what information would have I got fed, what were the, what's the fake news or the focus areas that, and if I don't, if I can't lift out of that because I don't either know how or want to, because I'm believing something. So the objectivity to make my own decisions on, on news and information that's not colored by opinion or rhetoric that's trying to influence me into one place or another is something that really worries me.

Fair, I'm with you that. This 15 second kind of sound bite was sitting at the airport and opposite me there was a couple and they were chatting and the lady turned to her partner, you know what? I think I'm going to start reading books again. And he went, what? Really?

She went, yeah.

And he's like, well, why? Well, because all the things that I read and learn, like I, I learn it all on TikTok and I try to hold it together, try not to break into a laugh. And he went, what do you mean? Well, all of the stuff that I learn about psychology, about business, about politics, it's all through TikTok. And I'm like, this looked like a relatively sane, focused human sitting in front of me. I'm like, wow, this is what a lot of us are doing, is little sound clips and that's our facts and that's our reality. So I'm with you. We need to take our time, slow down, find reputable stories, sources, long form, you know, whether it's a newspaper, whether it's traditional media. But we need to slow down.

And the platforms themselves are amazing. Right. If you can follow the, if you can find the right information through them to engage with. The challenge is the algorithm starts sending you into places, that means that you get, it gets colored. So I'm okay with the other side of the discussion or the debate. In fact I'd to like, like to see the other side of the discussion or the debate so I can decide for myself which side of it I like. But I think, I think that's incredibly difficult today.

I'm with you sport. New Zealand CEO, current role. Incredible. And I mean what you can do to impact sport for our future generations, for our current generations, for spectators, for sponsors, for everything is huge. The one thing I'd love to talk about is high performance. And so I geek out on high performance. I love it, I talk about it, I interview the world's highest performers. But, but what I often see are traits of burnout, of overwhelm, of stress, of high expectations. So I've kind of tried to define what I think high performance is. So for me it's consistently exceeding norms. So you've got to be better than average to be a high performer. You got to win, you got to get results. But then the, the bit that comes after that is whilst maintaining healthy relationships and well being and not perfect, perfect relationships and not perfect well being, but healthy, functional. Sometimes they get out of whack, maybe they need a bit of focus. But to me that's what high performance is. And I just wondered what your thoughts on high performance is, how we can sustain it and what's you know, right for our athletes and for our young athletes.

Yeah, I mean it is and I think the world is changing from a high performance sense in our performance lens. When you're thinking about at the absolute elite level that is Olympics and world championships and Paralympics and that is that Hollywood went through a me too moment. Casting couch, not acceptable anymore. Neither is coaches that behave badly yell and scream, don't explain what they're doing, why they're doing it, that select or deselect athletes with no communication or explanation as to why that is, that don't provide safe environments for an athlete voice to either be part of the conversation about how we might develop a strategy or an environment, or complain if they're uncomfortable or acknowledge what the Very real challenges of mental health in a modern environment are. And so we've seen some very, very high profile athletes come out and talk about the Simone Biles or the Naomi Osakas, the John Kirwan, Sir John Kirwan, for example, that have made some of these conversations more acceptable to have publicly. But we've got a system change and a cultural change happening that is not going to happen overnight because those coaches that have had maintained success by yelling and screaming and selecting and not selecting either have to change or won't have jobs going forward. But they've also taught the assistant coaches who have taught the junior coaches that have taught this. So where there's a big, big piece of work happening around what understanding and supporting wellbeing looks like and the. And is that to be the most high performing athlete that you can be, your wellbeing has to be at its very highest level.

Will you look at that healthy, happy athlete Fleet will perform better consistently over the long term.

It's not an or it's an end and it's a little word, but you don't ever compromise the well being to get the result. And if you to your point, want sustained success, it is about finding that space. What I would say is it's not for everyone. So not. There is a point where there is a reason why Lisa Carrington has won more gold medals than any anyone in New Zealand's history. And she has a unique combination of skills, motivation, mental strength and physical attributes that allow her to perform. If we all had it, we'd all stand on the top of the dice. So there is the reality of mature conversations inside high performance environments that start as a triangle and move up. Some of us manage to get right to the very pinnacle. Some of us don't ever get there. And that that's because we don't have one of those elements. Right. And that's okay. But it's how you're treated in that process, to be brought through that we are actually being in the.

Not even making an Olympic selection, but going to a World cup might be where you get to actually being in the under 21s might be the greatest level that you ever get to. But what are the positives that you've had during that process that we talked about at the beginning of this podcast. So it is a significant cultural and system change that's happening. It does require leadership and for leaders to call out behaviour and not invest.

In sports that aren't taking it seriously. It is important for sponsors to make sure they understand what they're investing in so they know that they can have athletes that are going to be safe in those environments. It's important that athletes have athlete voice mechanisms to go to. If they can't have that direct conversation themselves and don't feel safe that they can do that. That those athlete voice mechanisms, be it inside the environment or independent, are really important part of that landscape. But genuinely a culture, a really positive, constructive culture is what it's all about, right? That is what we all aspire for. So the athlete voice is important. Coaches can be the mature leaders they need to be and call out good performance and bad performance or where performance needs to be improved in a safe environment where those robust conversations are accepted and understood.

So well put. It's interesting. I really focus on high performance leadership, what that looks like both in sport and business. And often I get met with resistance initially and it's usually from strong alpha male type where it's like gm. A lot of that stuff you're talking about is soft. That's all the soft stuff. Empathy, compassion, listening. And I come back with yeah, the soft stuff is the hard stuff. And if you want to get results, you've got to focus on the soft stuff. What I'm seeing is a shift and I think we give it 10, 15 years. There's going to be very few organizations that will allow for toxic masculinity, that will allow for people to abuse others, be blunt to others. There's only room for us to actually be leading from a high performance mindset through empathy. I see empathy as almost being the greatest strength of a leader. Recently I've met a few leaders who lack it and it's very much me over we. It's about them and their ego and their passion. How do you go about in your current role sowing that empathy in to all of your leaders that work alongside inside you?

Well, I mean it is that learning, right? It's, it's learning. It's not those role models. And you know, if you can see it, you can be it. You know, it's all of those things. But actually it is calling out the behavior that when you see it, when it's not appropriate, it is leading by example and showing people that it's okay to care and be supportive. You can't not make the hard decision. But it's even how you go about making the hard decision decision or the tough decision, you know, because making people redundant or restructuring a business or closing a business down, those things are really difficult. But if you spend the time and energy to Put the support around those people that are going, going to go through a really tough time. That's really important part of enabling that person to have the best chance to go off and find another job. So I think all of those parts are an important conversation. Leadership, leadership in the same way we just talked about coaching in a high performance environment. It's the same in leadership opportunities like how you build your teams. Who do you get around the table? Are you prepared to build the culture from the ground up as opposed to trying to buy in success? Because sometimes buying in success might look good on the surface, but actually New Zealand holds now a deeply.

Strong sense of its own identity and who we are as a nation and sometimes international people coming into those environments who are used to fast paced, lots of athletes. If you're no good, the next one's coming in behind, we'll get rid of you. There's another one. And I've been brought up in a culture where I queue for trains and planes and you know, I have to fight in school to find my place. That's not innately who New Zealand is. Right. So you're dealing with a culture build with athletes that have come out of a different environment. So you know, I'm a great believer if we can find New Zealand confidence coaches, that's where we should be focused because I think innately they understand who New Zealand is and the culture build the te ao mori approach that many of our high performance environments are using now to help them with performance. And that mix of combination is incredibly important. You can't shy away from. Success is ultimately what we're driving for. But the journey to get there isn't about yelling and screaming. It's about finding a way to get, get to the essence of that person and get the best out of them.

What advice do you have for a parent who's got a young kid or young kids involved in sport and these kids are aged between 8 and 12. What's your advice to them in terms of setting your kid up for success in life? And I'm not saying setting them up, become an Olympian, setting them up to become a black fern, just setting them up for success. How should they approach their kids involvement in sport? What's the best way for them to support them?

Make sure they're having fun and they enjoy it.

Leave them to be. Don't over parent from the sideline. Certainly don't yell and scream at them from the sideline because the fun element and the learnings that they have of being a teammate and the discipline of turning up to practice and making sure that they give their best self and that they know how to win and lose is all about the learnings. It's not about being the best kid on the field. And I mean it's. The research tells us it's the biggest turn off to young people playing sport is parental caregiver or coach making it all about winning. So when they get in the car at the end of the first question you ask is not did you win? Is did you have fun? And it will sound soft to many listeners, they'll be eye rolling, going, oh my God. But it's actually what the research is telling us. I think the helicopter parenting is a terrible thing. Skinning knees, climbing fences and trees, Understanding the consequences of climbing too high and not being able to get down or having to fall out of the tree is really important.

Empowering your child to be in an environment where you're not around to make their own decisions and live the family values that you. But test those out in an environment that's different from you not being there all the time is really important. And that's where sport plays a really good role. So dropping them off and then picking them up. Yes, I'm all about going on the sidelines, supporting them. That's awesome. My parents did that right throughout, you know, all the sport I played and that's incredible family support. But.

I deeply worry about the lack of resilience that young people have because they're not allowed to make their own decisions. And parents helicopter parent and make decisions for their young people. And the research that we do at a sport New Zealand level shows us there's also a trend that it's not just organised sport, there's lots of other ways for young people to be physically active and get great experiences. So it might be tramping, it might be skateboarding. Like I don't know if you've ever sat on the edge of one of those big skateboards, gateboard parks, just go and sit and watch. Watch the community look after itself. The older kids teaching the little kids tricks and looking after them if they fall over and being the system's rights. Your turn, then it's my turn, then it's your turn. And I don't dive in in front of you because you actually wanted you. So there's all these social things that are happening and mum and dad aren't there watching because actually I'm finding a way to interact with kids that are different, older than me, that I don't know. And so those are greatly Learning experiences. So I, I'm a massive advocate for that opportunity. Their physical activity being uncomfortable. It's okay, it's okay to get a little bit over your head when you're swimming and understand what that feels like to know that you shouldn't go over your head if you don't think you can cope with it. How do you deal with you know, waves and surf and what does it look like when you're going a bit fast on your bike downhill and you haven't used your brakes quickly enough? Right.

We've all been there, right.

We've been there, right? And know I went through the neighbor's fence and that was a pretty good learning you know of, you know what I should do differently. So those are all, I just think it's what the as I say go back to but creating opportunities. Old fashioned play, you know outside rugby ball, netball, hopscotch, you know those jump rope, you know those things that are really fun. Kiarahi old you know, traditional Mori game. How you include those things. Kapaha Darker. Amazing. Physically so tough and just such an amazing representation of New Zealand. But empower our young people with their decision making. Put the guardrails around them and let them go.

Yeah. Such good advice. Jonathan Haidt who recently wrote a book around young kids, it's called the Anxious Generation and he said we over protect our kids in the real world and we under protect them in the online world.

World.

So they're on their digital devices, they're on TikTok, they're on YouTube reels and shorts. But actually we won't let them go to the shop which is 300 meters down the road. We won't let them go to the sports field which is 50 meters across the road. And he sees a real problem in that and I agree and it's interesting. I remember a church minister who had three or four kids and he was also a coach of a number of sports teams and he would scream on the sidelines and yell and beroe. Berate the coaches, berate the referees. He got banned from some games. This is a church minister, right. And I imagine being his kids would be painful and I imagine many of them, his kids will not go on to play sport as something they enjoy because it was all about winning at all costs.

And and it is, it is such.

A problem for us still today, this day. It happens, right?

It does. And it's, and it is, it is the, the number one problem really that we have is actually the importance of kids being able to just get together and play themselves, like in a team. So, like this rugby's difficult because it's got scrums and technical. So you do need a coach. But actually most of our other sports, basketball, football, netball, tennis, you don't need, you know, a manager or a coach. You can turn up and do those things. So allowing the kids to pick their group, not being too worried, worried about, you have to train on this day and you have to train. And I'm not talking about high performance sport, right? I'm Talking about the 95% of people in this country that turn out every week to have fun with their mates, enjoy it, have a great experience, have some physical exercise, puff, you know, do all those things, have a laugh, enjoy it, sit down afterwards, have a beer together as a group. Yeah, all of those things. Not the Tamariki, obviously, but, you know, like, those things are important and not everyone's going to be the world champion, but they will stop playing if mum and dad judge them negatively around their performance or the coach judges them, because that's not fun.

And I get that. 100 it's interesting. People say to me, james, is Fame going to be a drummer? So I was a world champion drummer. And I said, I don't know if he wants to be. I think, well, have you started teaching him? No. Does he see you drum? I say, I don't really drum anymore. It was a passion and a hobby that turned into a career and then I did too much of it and I lost my passion and, oh, James, you got to make him do it. I was like, no, okay, what about sport? Is you going to drive him in sport so he can become a world champion there? I was like, no, I'm almost the opposite railing. I just want to see him involved. So he does cricket. He's just started cricket and he's loving it and he doesn't even know if they win or lose the game. He just loves going. And is that.

Great point, right? Like you ask a child afterwards, if you. If you ask them the following following day, what's the overwhelming piece of feedback about the day before? It won't be whether they won or lost. It's whether they had fun and they enjoyed it with their mates. And yes, there's always those kids that are driven. There's always those kids that want to win. There's always those kids that will end up being the probably standing or, you know, on the top of a podium. But that's not the people that we're talking about here.

100 and it's interesting. A Couple of those people like Kieran Reed, for example, sitting down chatting with Kieran Karen or more recently, Finn Butcher, our Olympic Golden Adelaide.

Amazing, amazing young man. I spent some time with Finn last week. It was. He is amazing.

Great human, eh?

Yeah, really great.

I spent a lot of time asking him about his parents and same with Kieran, and it was overwhelming. They supported me, they encouraged me. It wasn't about winning, it was about community, it was about participation. And he said, that's why I love it, because I do it for my community and the people. And he said, I just happened to. I've had some talent, worked really, really, really hard, had great coaches and I've managed to get an opportunity to represent my country. So, yeah, the first thing he did.

When he got back was went to his school, his primary school and took his gold medal so that his. So that the kids there actually, you know, could see his gold medal. And. And that's the power of that aspirational element that, yes, we need people winning on the world stage. You know, I was lucky to be at the Olympics. New Zealand was. Was the talk of the Olympics. Not for our performances, only for our performances from a small nation. On the field of play was how we behaved off it. That was the Hayden wild arm around Alex Yee. When he just finished the race, it was the very first thing he did was thank his teammate for hauling him from the second bunch into the front bunch. It was the Te Ao Mori approach, the haka in the middle of the velodrome for Elise Andrew. Photos. And when she won her gold medal, you know, and tears streaming down her face, it was Lydia Ko, who you've seen one many, many times on the. On the LPGA Tour and never cry. And she stood there hearing the New Zealand national anthem and there was tears rolling down her face.

It's beautiful.

That's the power of what it can do and it can inspire the next young person to play golf. They might need never go to the Olympics, but they'll have a life. They can have a lifelong connection with golf.

And most of us won't go to the Olympics. Most of us won't become world champions. It's just the nature of it now, really. I really want to say a massive thank you for today. I've really enjoyed sitting with you at length and I just. If you don't mind, I'd love to ask you one last question. Sure. So let's pretend for a moment that it's. We're going to fast forward many years into the future, you know, you're highly aware that it's your last day here Earth, someone that you love dearly. Maybe a young person comes into the room, they got their life ahead of them, they say, raylane, how do I go about leading my life on purpose? What would you say to them?

I'd say be brave to step in to the opportunities that get put in front of you. So can't replace hard work. Do have to have a bit of a plan of what you might want to do, but be really brave to step into those opportunities when they afforded you and all sorts of opportunities it might be. Would you like to go and volunteer today? Because actually you'll learn a lot about that. It might be that someone offers you a part time job where you're making lemonade and selling. You know, there's all sorts of ways to, to grow your depth of experience, but you have to be brave enough to step into the ones that make you feel uncomfortable. And I think if we had a generation of people that were brave to step in, young people that were really brave to step into those opportunities and then challenged when they were in the those opportunities, if something didn't feel right, I think we'd be in a really good place.

100% agree. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

Thanks for having me. It's been great.

It's been a joy. Thank you. A very special thanks to NZ Mortgages for sponsoring this episode of the Lead On Purpose podcast. You can check them out at nzmortgages co nz. Thanks for tuning in to Lead on Purpose. If you find this episode valuable, please share it with one person that you think might benefit benefit from it. And if you're serious about leveling up, please make sure you're subscribed to the show and continue to lead your life on purpose.