Regenerative Leadership with Brianne West

I'd like to ship you a free copy of my book Habits of High Performers. If you come and join the 2026 goal setting workshop, I will ship you one of these today. The link is in the notes. Please come and join me to set up the very best 2026 you could imagine. If you've set up goals in the past or New Year's resolutions and they haven't substantiated, I'm here to help you across all the key pillars of your life nail your goals. I'll see you there. Welcome to Lead On Purpose. I'm James Laughlin, former seven time world champion musician and now executive coach to global leaders and high performers. In every episode I bring you an inspiring leader or expert to help you lead your life and business on purpose. Thanks for taking the time to connect today and investing in yourself. Enjoy the show.

Etique is a female founded ethical beauty brand that wants to stop millions of plastic bottles from ending up in landfills. Self taught green entrepreneur Brianne west launched the Zero Waste Personal Care brand to challenge the clean beauty industry to live up to its name. I'm so excited to welcome Brianne onto the show. We talk all about regenerating our planet through business and her whole mission is to give up the bottle and go solid by putting a bar in every shower. It's absolutely amazing. Her mission, what she's doing for the planet, her vision, it's inspiring and it's an incredibly successful company. So really looking forward to it and I know you will too. Sit back and enjoy the.

Foreign.

A massive welcome to the Lead On Purpose podcast.

Thank you for having me.

It's so great to connect. As I mentioned before we hit record, I've been following your journey for yourself at Ethique for a number of years. Your products sit in our house, we use them, they're amazing and I'm sure many listeners are going oh, I have that product too. So I want to talk a little bit about it because your mission is rather mind blowing and awe inspiring. A lot of big, big brand products out there don't ever share their why. Your why I feel like drives everything that you do and it's behind all of your verbiage, all of your marketing, but also personally when I see you speak and you share yourself on social media, you're really congruent with that. So the one thing that really stuck out here was plastic free palm oil. But also regenerating our planet through business. So that in itself regenerating our planet through business. I had to write that down. And think about that. What does that mean to you? To really regenerate our planet through business.

It's a good story. I'll start from the beginning. I suppose so back when I was in the kitchen and I wanted to create a business that had a purpose greater than making money. Right. I've had a couple of businesses prior and I sold them because I got bored. And unfortunately it's a mass character flaw of mine and I have to be constantly entertained, constantly trying to work through challenges or I do get bored. And without a purpose, business to me is not as exciting. So I wanted to rid the world of plastic bottles. And cosmetics industry was low barrier because I'm a scientist so I can formulate my own products. And in terms of actually entering the market whilst it's very full and far too competitive. The idea of creating a plastic free line was doable. So that's why the cosmetics company to rid the world of plastic bottles. But as we've grown it's become apparent to me that it's so much more than that. I always wanted to take to operate as ethically and as fairly, as kindly and as humanly possible. So it goes beyond the products palm oil free. So, so, so difficult. Cannot overestimate that. I understand why the cosmetics companies don't do it. I encourage them to. But it's hard. It is a commitment. Plastic free, cruelty free. All of the things that I really think are bare minimum for companies producing a product right now. But I think the difference with the tech is how we operate and that's sort of where the regenerative comes in. To me it is very simple. It's giving back more than we take, which is not something most businesses do. And they will. Typically as people and as businesses, we underestimate the damage we do just every day, just by living and breathing. Right. And it's unavoidable. And that's not something to feel guilty about unless you're a business deforesting and then claiming things like planting a tree for every order as if that undoes all the good. So to me a regenerative business is one that looks a lot deeper than the marketable stuff. So greenwashing is everywhere. And I guess to go back to my planting a tree analogy, you will see companies who are using, let's use cosmetics, for example. They have a product full of palm oil which is definitively linked to deforestation, human trafficking and horrendous human rights violations. And then they're planting a tree at the end for every order. That's not A regenerative anything that is not even sustainable, to be frank. But that is what their sustainability story is. Regenerative businesses, and a teak is one of them, will go all the way back and say, right, I'm not using that ingredient because it's linked to deforestation. So we'll find an alternative and an alternative that's not linked to deforestation. So regenerative business is a lot harder, it's a lot deeper, it's a lot less marketable often, which is why another one of the reasons it's not done. And that is what I want Atique to lead the way in, I suppose, and encourage other businesses to do, go beyond just the greenwashing nonsense you see everywhere.

Powerful. I feel like a lot of business owners and people starting out or people starting to look at how can we be more regenerative. It's like, I'm not sure we can even make a profit doing that. So let's just tink some box and let's just say that we're doing this when actually we know in the end we're really neglecting things. So you're a prime example of running a company that makes a profit that is doing great things for the world. So what would your message be to that person who's like, ah, that's all too hard and I would never make a profit. What's your message to them?

Total nonsense. And it's not just anecdotal evidence because when someone says, oh, but that doesn't happen to me, that's not helpful comparison. Yes, the tech is profitable and has been for four or five years. We're nine years old, 10 years old this year, so nine years old at the moment. And we make decisions like direct trade. Coconut oil for example, is 16 times the market value commodity price. So we can still be profitable beyond that.

But there's also a lot of research that bears this idea out that social enterprises or businesses with purpose are not only more profitable, but they also go further, faster for longer and engender a lot more customer loyalty because of that purpose. You know, customers resonate with what they see within that organization and are much more likely to choose those products regardless of perhaps they're a little bit more expensive, perhaps they're not, but they are more likely to be to see themselves within that company. It's why people wear brands, right? Designer brands are not for rich people. They are for your bog standard normal person, for lack of a better term, who wants to look like they're wealthy. That is what a brand is for what you wear, what you buy, tells a story about yourself and shows other people what you want them to know about yourself. The same is true of purposely brands. People who want to be. They want to be associated with doing something good. And that is why purposely brands engender more loyalty, because people feel better about their purchasing decisions.

That makes so much sense. When you look at some of the companies that say Apple and Tesla, people often will buy into those brands because of the story.

And whether that story is good or bad, they buy into the story. So for you with being purpose led, a lot of companies will spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in finding out, well, what's our purpose? Or what can we make our purpose? What was your story or what was your, like, way you discovered that purpose? Did you spend hundreds of thousands of dollars with a company to figure out your company's purpose? Or were you like, no, I know what this is about.

No, a text purpose is my purpose in life. And I have been.

Since I was a weird kid, saving worms out of puddles. I have always been very stubborn about. I want to save the environment. And that sounds grandiose because that's kind of a job for more than one person, but I want to. I want to do everything that I possibly can to protect the planet that we live on. In particular, because the animals on it and the people on it are incredible and amazing and deserve a place to live. That is, I don't think. I think a big part of it is. I am. It's gonna sound really lame, but I'm just genuinely awestruck by the incredible amazingness of our planet and the chemistry behind things. If you, okay, the anatomy of an atom is dead boring, but it's not. It's incredible. And atoms are simply what make up everything. That, to me, is amazing. And the more I learn about the underpinning physics and chemistry of our planet and our world, and therefore the biology that leads to, I just think it's amazing. And the more people who know that, the more people who will want to protect it. So to me, my purpose is to show people not only it's possible to run a business that has a purpose that genuinely has impact, but it's still profitable, but also to show people just how amazing the world is, because when people love something, they want to protect it. And no, I certainly didn't need $100,000 plus to tell me that I spent a hundred thousand dollars on branding, but never on purpose, because it's always been absolutely the core of the company from day One, because it's my core, it's my personality, it's my purpose, I suppose.

Brilliant. I love it. And again, for those people who are listening, if you're listening to this right now, please get on Instagram and go and follow Atique and check out Brianne's Journey because you'll hear and see that same message and that purpose really coming through strong consistently.

You know, I love it. It's inspiring. And if we rewind the clock. So you're a scientist, right? So my question is, how does a scientist start a company and then make that company a global brand and help to change the direction of where we're taking things as humans? Where did it begin? Where did that like that desire to go, oh, I need to take what I know as a scientist and I can create something that will have an impact.

I never thought a take would grow as big as it did. I wanted it to, but I used to feel silly when I would say, oh, you know, I want to save the world from a million plastic bottles. That was the initial goal. We overshot that by a factor of 10. But even that when I started the company was unbelievably insurmountable. And the way I did it was simply by surrounding myself with people who are cleverer and better at doing things than I am. I am very, I'm never the smartest person in the room. I have the most amazing team. I have had incredible mentors and even just supporters and shareholders and backers and investors throughout Tek's entire journey. And it is down to them that Atique is where it is. There are. I, I was thinking about the other day, actually I just like the term self made because of that, because it is not, it is not down to me. When I started the company, I was in a flat in Christchurch in Aotearoa and I was, I had no idea what I was doing. My previous two businesses had taught me a little bit basically not what, what not to do in terms of, you know, don't ignore the tax department. It's definitely a no no.

But they had certainly not prepared me for how you build an export heavy business. It's not, it was never in my wheelhouse and I simply bought that experience into the company by hiring people who had done it before. My COO in particular is a massively experienced international businessman and without him a tech would never be where it is. And that's true of every member of the team. So, yeah, if.

There'S many things I would change looking back on my journey and if anything, I would speed up hiring people, but I would never ever change the people who were involved with the company because they've had the most incredible impact.

Amazing. And when it comes to hiring. So if there's a person listening to this right now going, we need to expand but I'm reluctant to hire and they're listening to you going, I would have sped that up. Why would you have sped it up and what would you have done differently?

I would have thought bigger actually, because.

I had this thing in my head, I suppose, that I had to hire people who were right for the company now at that point. So we were still a startup, we had four people, we're manufacturing like 100 bars a day. So I hired people for that stage, I didn't hire people for the next stage where I wanted the company to be, which is really stupid. But that's where my thinking was because I didn't think we could afford people who were more experienced and more professional, if you want to use that term. So had I lifted my sights and my demands, I guess of the next hire earlier, then it probably would have grown faster. But of course that does come with an inflated paycheck.

So it's hard because you've got to balance the responsibilities of being, you know, responsible for someone's income and you should never diminish that, that's incredibly important. But you also want the company to grow. So you have to be very, you have to be certain you can pay their salary, you have to be certain you can look after them. And we've always paid a living wage so you have to be certain you look after them well and not just the bare minimum.

But then you push yourself and go and find someone who actually exceeds all your expectations. Because there are people out there who want to be involved, particularly going back to the purpose lead point, there are people who want to be involved with a purposely company who would perhaps have certainly in the beginning more favorable terms to work with you. So they might, you know, they might be on, I don't know, $200,000 salary in a corporate, they might be willing to drop it to come and work with you with the proviso that eventually they'll work their way back up there, but the fact that they feel good because they're working in a purpose led organisation makes all the difference. So hire for the position you want the company to be in in a year or two years because then they will help you build the company to that point.

And if you were to go back and talk to Brianne Then who was thinking about now and say, hey, hey, stretch it out. Like, let's think the next 24 months. What was the one question you would ask her to ponder?

Hey, James here. I wanted to take a quick moment to let you know about something. Look, I get asked to deliver keynotes and workshops for teams and companies all over the world, from London to Antarctica, from America to Australasia, from armies to small businesses to large corporates to sports teams. But I go in and deliver keynotes around the mindset of high performers, around the habits of high performers, about how we navigate change. If you would like me to come and speak to your team or speak at your conference or deliver a bespoke workshop, please get in touch with my team. Carolinejlochlin.com will be able to help. I'll also make sure that we put that in the show notes.

Oh, thank.

The mistake I continually made back then was thinking too small, which is bizarre. So I guess I would say, what do you think about 24 months and then double it? The example I always use is we moved into our brand new factory in 2016, 2015, and it was supposed to last us for five years. We've actually just moved out, but it was supposed to last us manufacturing. We outgrew it in six months and that's why we now manufacture in Auckland.

It's hard to prepare for that level of growth and it's hard to get your mindset around it. But I mean, if I was ever going to ask a question, it would be, what is it? Okay, now think bigger.

Amazing. So what was the greatest challenge for you? Like, obviously we deal with fear of failure. We deal with fear of letting others down that we're employing and maybe clients as well, and investors. What was the biggest challenge for you? As that growth started to become more.

Exponential for the business, it was scaling manufacturing. For me.

I've actually never had a fear of failure. I don't really care and I don't know why, because I deeply care what people think about me. So it's an odd contrarian personality quirk. My fear was always that I was never the right person to be in this position. Massive imposter syndrome, massive lack of faith in my own abilities to even make simple decisions. And yet at the same time, I'm also really stubborn and stuck on this is the way we will go. And that is why Atika has retained so many of its value or all of its values, because I've been dogmatic about it. So for me, it's been growing confidence in Myself, which comes with experience. There was no way to fast track that. Right. And understanding I do have a value in being here and therefore speaking up in conversations where I think either it's going in the wrong direction or my opinion needs to be heard or whatever. So that has been a work in progress and I'm definitely not good at it yet, but it's work in progress.

So cool. And in terms of for the CEO that's listening or the aspiring CEO, what are areas where you go, you know what, that's not my strength. And I hire people who can absolutely dominate in that area.

Broadly. Anything particularly detail oriented. Now when I was studying science, I was in the lab and I thought, well, I don't like this because it is particularly paperwork and you have to be very specific about what you're doing. That's great. It's not me. I hate finance. Money is obviously quite important and I love giving it away, but. But I'm not big on the management of it. So we have a fab finance team, ops team who do that. Logistics, operations, all those sorts of things that require a high level of detail and thinking. I guess almost like all the branches of the things that could happen. That's not me. I am creative, big picture. Love talking to people, love explaining the story, love creating new ways that it can do good and also formulating the products. Those. That's where the sort of the science comes in. That's my area of expertise. But yeah, details, operations, logistics, not interested.

I love it. And was that like you started by yourself? Right? It was just you who started. Right. So was that a learned experience? Like, oh, I'm struggling with this, that I need to hire for this?

Yes. Remember how I told you about the IRD or ignoring the tax department?

I didn't. I know I said I learned that, but I kind of ignored them in the. Well, not really. But yes, it was because I would have to spend more time doing stuff I hated and it would take me longer because I hated it. I'd procrastinate and it would take me off the stuff that would actually make the company more valuable. So one of the first roles I hired was a an operations manager who took away the general admin side of things and she made a big difference to my ability to go away and do stuff. But it was three years before I take to the point where we could handle that salary, so I had to learn. And grudgingly, I can do that stuff if I want to, but it's not actually helpful for the business or me.

I will just do a bad job of it. And it took a while for me to learn that. That doesn't mean I'm bad at my job. Because it feels as a CEO, you should be able to do everything, you should know everything. And that's been a big struggle actually is as the company's grown, as I no longer know everything intimately that's going on and that's hard. But it doesn't mean that I'm bad at my job. So I keep telling myself because it's impossible to know everything that goes on and it's impossible to be good at everything within a business. And if you were, it probably just means you're not particularly good at everything. You're okay. So that's tricky. That's also a work in progress.

Yeah, I think leadership in general, right. No matter who I'm chatting to, it's. I never like, hey, I arrived at this point in my leadership journey. Like I got to the destination. Every single leader, whether they're running countries, companies, governmental organizations, they're like, hey, we're on a journey. Like, we're figuring things out as we go. I get it. So how do you lead? Like if I was to chat to a couple of your staff members, they're like, hey, how does Brianne lead you guys? What are the conversations like? What is the autonomy like? What's your style of leadership?

I like people to be able to stand on their own two feet. So I my door is always open. People will come and talk to me whenever they like. But if someone comes in and asks me a question, I will ask them another question to help them figure out the answer themselves. And I don't do that to be annoying, but I believe that one of the most important things you can develop is self reliance, grit. A little bit like the entrepreneurial stuff you need right. To keep on going as perseverance and the ability to problem solve yourself. And look at, I'm not horrible about it. If people are genuinely stuck, of course I will help. I will put everything down and help you find the solution without an issue. But I have found that through that it's only a few months before people are coming to me with a problem. But then they're like, but we fixed it and we just want to let you know. I'm like, you are awesome. I'm very big on people being able to go and do the best for the company that they believe. So decision making of their own autonomy, flexibility. I am very caring. It is overly so at times. And I do make friends of my team. And that can be difficult. Therefore, holding people accountable, which is why I am probably too soft. But that is also something I'm working on. A lot of those isn't there? But that is actually your point. Leadership is a journey. There is no perfect leader out there. And I just tend to be too, too soft than the other way around, which I'd rather.

And I'm sure your staff would too you that affiliative style of leadership where you really get to know your staff and you really become their friend and you want to engage in what's going on in their life. There's so many benefits, but the number one. And it's. The data shows that the number one challenge is when you've got to have the tough conversation. That's even harder to do because you got that connection with them. Right?

Yeah, yeah. That's not pleasant. But that's why I again surround myself with people who are.

Any word I think of sounds horrible. Tougher, colder, firmer, just better at that. And I learn from the way they do it and they still do it in any pathetic way. But to me it's remembering that holding people accountable is not a personal attack or a personal insult. You can have a very pleasant conversation and get the same outcome. We're not a company that ever shouts at people. No one in this organization is. And I have to remember that confrontation doesn't have to be terrifying, doesn't even have to be mildly scary.

If I screw up like I'm working for you and I make a big failure, something happens. What's the process? What's the conversation you and I would have?

I would figure out why. I don't know if it goes back to science training, but I've always been very passionate about understanding underlying causes of something because then you can a prevent it happening again and people can understand what they did wrong in the first place. So I wouldn't. There would be no. No shouting or. No. I don't even believe in blaming people. If someone comes up and owns up to a problem, that's great. That's all. They already feel guilt enough. Right? They already feel terrible. There is absolutely no benefit at all in being punitive. So we figure out together. We'd figure out how it happened and figure out what we would do in the future to prevent it happening. I mean, I would expect them to go and fix it.

But they would not be fixing it on their own and the wider company would not be made aware. As I've seen some companies like publicly shame employees and I just think, what on earth are you doing? That would never happen.

Isn't that great, though, to have examples like that that you can look to and go, ah, thanks for kind of explaining to me what I don't want to be.

This is very true.

I see it in international politics, something I don't know a lot about, but I see some big leaders and I'm like, oh, cool. That's how I would not like to talk to someone.

Yeah, yeah, that's very true. Yeah. I mean, we have a great woman prime minister, obviously, and she has some great aspects of leadership that I. That I like.

And that's it. And I think when we look at any leader, I'm sure if I was to step into a peak and chat to everyone, do a 360, let's say there'd be some of your leadership styles that they love. And then that will be like, hey, that's her greatest strength. But also that's her greatest weakness. So that's. Yes, it's nice to be able to kind of sit back and reflect on, okay, what is my style and where does it serve me and where does it not?

People do ask me for more feedback.

I don't give enough.

I give lots of positive feedback. I don't give enough on the other side. So that is, again, another work in progress.

That's cool.

I find it uncomfortable.

What do you find uncomfortable about that? Not negative feedback, but feedback that pertains to their performance.

For me, it's making sure that people are aware. It's not personal. So it's not about them as a person, it's about their skills. And I'm still separating in my brain when I say, oh, I didn't love that such and such that you wrote or. And this is why I'm not attacking the person. I'm not talking about the person. I'm talking about the work that they've done, which is separate from them. And it's just separating that in my brain because to me, I think it's because a teak is me. Right? So anything that happens bad to the company feels like it's happening to me. And that's ridiculous and unhealthy, I'd imagine, way of looking at things. But I suppose I then assume people feel the same about the work they do. And that's not necessarily true at all because they've got a much healthier work life split. And that's why it feels uncomfortable, because I want them to understand I'm not in any way criticizing them as a person. But in fact simply saying this could be better if we did it like this.

Yeah, great. And the culture so often at companies that are growing exponentially, there's something unique about their culture. So I look at a company like Xero, I in no way endorsed or ambassador by zero but I use Xero and it makes life easy for me. So I've kind of watched on the side their company culture just like it's quite interesting and intriguing. Google's the same. What makes a teak's culture unique?

I think it's because we're all here for the same purpose.

We are here to genuinely make everybody has different parts of the brand that they resonate with and not everybody agrees or is as passionate about all of the values as some others are and that's fine. But we're all here generally because we want to make the world a better place and I think that helps give you a common purpose to start with.

As for being.

Culture starts at the top as a leadership team we are.

Differing versions of what I've just talked about. So we're all kind and we care about our people. Some of us are firmer than others about the way we hold them accountable. And I think that deep caring means that our team know that at any point in time, for any reason at all, they can come to us and we will try and help them solve the problem, personal or professional. And then there's the fact that we're all perhaps a little bit off the wall as well. So we do lots of quirky things in the office. We do lots of fun stuff. I have a particularly dark sense of humor. So some of the team and it's a niching of all of those different senses of humor that I think create quite a quirky off the wall workplace because you have to. Because in a company that's growing this fast at times it's chaos and it doesn't. Like I couldn't hire enough people to make it perfectly seamless all the time. So there is a level of chaos at times, say a product launch for example. It's, it's stressful the first couple of days before and after and there's not a lot we can do to prevent that. We can do a lot to make people feel better while they're in it, you know, and, and some people love the chaos and sometimes it's not for those people when you monitor that you see if you can look after them and then next time perhaps you give them a different role within that so they don't feel so much Stress the next time. That's a very wiggly way of answering that question.

Great way. I love it. And let's talk about the pressure of. So you were doing 100 bars a day back in the day when you started. Now, for people listening, how many are you doing a day now?

150,000.

From 100 bars, folks, to 150,000 a day. So that's a bar every nine or 10 seconds?

Yep, that's about how many we sell globally to.

Wow.

We're just even amazing.

And so, like, when you're growing like that, obviously manufacturing is a big thing, distribution is a big thing. Who was instrumental in being a mentor or an advisor, or was there a group like NZTE who helped you to really go global?

The majority of that credit would go to my coo, the experienced business person I was talking to. But again, it would have been a massive team effort because we wouldn't have achieved anything without the team. But externally, yes, we relied on entity to help us vet new markets, particularly markets we were completely unfamiliar with, like Japan, for example, which is now one of our biggest.

We, oddly enough, PR companies. So we have a PR company in every major market, but they give you real insight into consumer and media and obviously that's something we rely on quite a lot. So having that insight that you wouldn't pick up unless you lived there, that was a big thing. And it's actually not somewhere you see businesses recommended as getting that expertise is through PR companies, is the insight into the consumer landscape. But actually they've been phenomenally useful. We could never afford focus groups and, you know, Bain.

We could never afford that sort of research for a long, long time. And that information we got off people off the ground from those PR companies or digital market companies or whatever, that was huge, golden.

And do you feel like, let's take Japan, for example, the angle at which people connect with your product is different than how the Kiwi market connects?

Yeah, every market is different. And there are so many messages to a cheque, it's almost helpful that they are, because we get to test each message, see what resonates with that market and really go hard on that. For example, water saving and space saving in Japan is a big deal alongside the plastic. Plastic side. Efficacy and importance of how good it is, you hear is number one in every market because people don't buy a product just because it's good for the environment. Apart from probably 2 or 3%. That's not what we're here for. We're here for to go mainstream. But In Australia, one of the biggest messages beyond plastic free is palm oil free, because they are so close to Indonesian Malaysia and they are aware of the damage it's wreaking on their rainforests. So, yes, you have to tailor your marketing message, but I've always been a believer of doing it and trying it rather than relying on focus groups. So, yes, I get that advice from PR companies, but I'm also bullheaded enough that I will go and try other messages anyway. And what I have found is often conventional wisdom isn't wise.

So whenever you're going into a new market, my advice would always be to throw as much stuff at the wall and see what sticks and then hammer that home, but also still educate your consumers on that other stuff that you do that they maybe don't care about too much yet, because eventually almost everything becomes a consumer concern.

Absolutely. And when you were. Because it started off as Sorbet was the initial name of the company. Right. And the branding was different than it is now. It's evolved a lot.

Oh, yes.

So good to see, though. So when you were bootstrapping, then how are you building your customer base one person at a time? Like, was there a tipping point where it went from, oh, this is really Christchurch local to, oh, my God, this is going insanely global?

Yeah. I think we've got the biggest tipping point I've ever heard of in a startup story too. And I think it's my most famously told story. We grew for the first couple of years, word of mouth. I didn't have any money. I built our own website and unfortunately it's still back on, like the way back, way back machine. It's just, just atrocious. But, you know, it's cute to look back on. But that wasn't engendering us too many in the way of consumers. It was all word of mouth and we had a couple of retailers who took a punt on us, which was very sweet, but we never. We were growing slowly and gently and manageably until I was in a. I was in Hawaii for a women's leadership conference and I met a Forbes reporter, the Forbes reporter whose name I will remember for the rest of my life. Mae Mae Fox. Thank you very much. Mae Mae. She wrote a piece for us in Forbes.com and being a Kiwi entrepreneur, I knew of Forbes, obviously it was very exciting and I thought, wow, the world will go off. This is going to be very exciting. Nothing happened. Nobody read it. It was in sort of an obscure section of forbes.com so nobody saw it. But A reporter from the Huffington Post, she did see it and she wrote a follow up article on us and everybody and their dog I think saw that. It was crazy. That was the tipping point we became. We went from a small company selling, I don't know, maybe 50 bars a day to a company selling 5,000 and then 50,000 bars a day. And it all happened in a space of a few days. I woke up one morning, this article had gone live. We had thousands of orders and emails. They had to cancel 98% of them. I was making 100 bars a day at that point. You know, my mum was making them bliss her. She was our production manager for a long time. It wasn't a starter but it took us a long time to gear up to deal with that demand. But the demand hung around and a lot of that I think was due to the brand story, the passion that people had for that purpose. And they waited for us while we geared up, which was pretty cool. But we were, we went viral around the world. We were even in like a Slovakian media.

Amazing. And I think a couple of big celebrities had gone on board as well. Was it Britney Spears and Ashton Kutcher?

Everyone gets excited about Ashton and like I know he's, he was arguably at that point more famous, more in the media I should say, but Britney Spears was my. I grew up listening to Britney's songs. Likewise, like my, my dream. Yeah, my dream celebrity. I about died when, because my mum text me, she's me at 7 o' clock in the morning and she said, Britney Spears has shared you on Facebook. And I said no she hasn't. Of course she hasn't. That'll be a clone account or a fake or something. And she said, no it is. And I saw the little blue verified tick and I, yeah, I don't remember, which annoys me because I must have been so excited though. Just blocked out my memory. But I was so, so excited. The team were beside themselves. It was amazing. It was very cool. And then Ashton made a video which is also cool. Yeah, Britney Spears. Sorry, Ashton.

No, I'm with you on that.

It's so good. Like, I don't know, it's just, it must be the most amazing feeling to know I created this product for a purpose and now the world is embracing it. It's no longer just this thing going 50 bars a day, it's 150,000.

You don't think about it that often. I think the time you think about it the most is when you see it on foreign countries shelves.

Because it happens around you. It feels almost slow. Right. You see all this growth is exciting, but it feels slow because you've worked so hard to achieve it. But when you. I don't know, a tour in New York and you wander into a Target or whatever and you see it on shelves, you think it's real. That was made in our lab. You know that packaging. We agonized over the color. Little tiny things that consumers have no idea go into it.

Yeah. That is when it all sinks in. It is very cool. It is also weird. I won't deny it. It is weird. Yeah.

What you've created is special because. So I go into my local Countdown so supermarket here in New Zealand, and I get to the aisle where all the toiletries are. I need to get shampoo and, okay, well, I don't want the bottle. So I go and I look and Ethique stands out. The colors, like, they're pinkalicious. Right. For example, the color is delicious itself. It's, like, beautiful. So I can see that you guys have agonized over the small details, but that I have a second to decide. And there's two or three options there, and one of them might be slightly cheaper. So I know that there's cheaper products out there than etiquette, but Ethique stands out. It's like, oh, let me see that. Oh, that looks cool. I want to hold that. It's like an Apple product. I'm a bit like Apple. I edge on the Apple side of things. But when you open an Apple product, it's like, it's fun to open the box. It's like an experience. It's fun to hold the packaging. It takes us the same. For me, it's like, it feels good. There's a quality to it. And then the story is very obvious. Right. From the branding on your package, I can buy into your story right away. And I think a lot of people in the supermarket, when they're selling a product, struggle to tell their story. And your bar is like this size. For those that are listening. Sorry, guys. It's five centimeters.

Yeah, totally.

You can do that. And that's a skill set and a talent that you've obviously developed to do that. It's amazing.

That's really good feedback because it is hard to do that on shelves. You did. Right. And I didn't actually think we got our brand off across, you know, on shelves like that. So that's. That's really good to know. Thank you.

Oh, it stands out. And you'll. You're going to Find that. Let's fast forward five years, seven years. Other brands are going to start to like use the same coloring and the same fonts. You're really leading the way in terms of that engagement with the customer. So hats off.

Thank you. Yeah, we don't have to wait five years. I've had a few.

That's a compliment, right? When people start copying you.

I'm delighted that all of the CPG firms, all of the big ones, you know, Garnier, l', Oreal, blah blah blah. I'm delighted they've released shampoo bars. I just really wish they would have picked up our values with it, you know. But we have had out and out copies of our brand. We've had someone rip off our entire website and there is a line where I think that's not flattery anymore, I'm just mad.

Yeah, that's plagiarism.

Exactly.

About the values. Because often I'll chat to CEOs and leaders like hey, what do you believe about business? And it's a really interesting question. So I get two answers generally. One, all businesses exist to make a profit. Okay. And the other key answer I get is a business should exist to serve society. Two polar opposite things. So I'm going to pose that question. Brianne, what do you believe about business?

I think you can probably guess. I believe business is the fastest way to create genuine positive change across social and environmental problems. And I believe that every time I say that there is someone in the audience who will roll their eyes and say your first one, which is actually no. Businesses are simply obligated to make a profit for these shareholders. I think that's nonsense. It is.

1970S to 2005. Thinking businesses, when business was, you know, trade way back when was there to benefit both parties. Now it's a one way transaction and in fact it's worse than a one way transaction because usually the people who've made your product and the stuff that it was made out of have been treated like rubbish. No, I think the business, the way it's currently done is awful by and large. Look, it is getting better. There is definitely a trend for businesses to have to start doing better because consumers are demanding more. But.

Yeah, my belief, business is that one of the best solutions we have because it can move faster, it has greater resource, it has greater impact.

Whereas governments, look, personally I think you'll be waiting for every few, waiting for them to do anything particularly useful. And non profits, the work they do is fabulous. But they are beholden to grants and that is hard because it makes them unfortunately behold to people with resource. Business has resource already.

Absolutely. And in terms of where you're taking it. So I want to get granular for a second for those people that roll their eyes, listen up. So, hey, you know, you've got to drive a profit and you know, giving your money away, that just doesn't work like that. Let's talk about what you have done and what you have donated. Let's talk about some dollars if you're willing to share that stuff.

Yeah, well, we donated 2, 2 million so far and we're looking to do 5 in the next 5 years, which is pretty cool.

Amazing.

I don't like saying that.

It feels good, should be done in the dark.

But also in saying that as a business, it's also a marketing opportunity. But we do good because we want to do good and then we talk about it as a marketing after. So when I talk about, yes, we're given 2 million away, that's fab. It's very exciting and I love that and I feel really good about that. We only added it up last year, so we didn't realize in total how much we'd done.

Yeah, it feels funny talking about it like that. What I love talking about, you know, is you've saved 216 acres of rainforest through the Rainforest Trust or saved 18 million pestic bottles. You know, those are the sorts of ways of quantifying that I think are really cool.

I think, well, New Zealander, so I'm not a New Zealander, but I can, I can definitely say that because I've been here long enough. I think that New Zealanders are generally very humble, do not like to brag, and often look down upon people who do brag. But there's a downside to that. So in this case, when you're doing such good work and you say, hey guys, we run a business, we have a ton of fun doing it, we do good for the planet. Oh, yeah. And also we're able to donate a substantial amount of money. It actually sets a precedent for other companies and other owners to go, they can do that. I need to reach out to Brianne and figure out how she did that. We could do that too. So let's say 10 people are listening to this that run a company, they take this model and they all raise 2 million over the next five years. Where's 20 million? Right? 10 million, 20 million, 30 million. That's going to be added up. And to me, that's why this conversation is important, that we talk about. You're Able to run the business at a profit and donate and have a purpose behind what you do.

That is a really interesting way of thinking about it actually. And it does change the mindset because you're right, I do want to inspire other businesses to do the same thing. And it's not pointless and awkward feeling bragging, which you're right, does fundamentally feel awkward to me because of the culture I grew up in. But you're right, if it encourages other people and other businesses to do the same thing, well, yeah, we should talk about more. I mean when we told our American PR company that figure and it was only a couple of months ago, again, as I said, why have you not told us this before?

Fair point.

That's important. And where's it going to next? So, and I'm going to ask you this with this filter in mind. So you had this advice for Brianne a few years ago of hey, think bigger. So right now, if we're looking at things right now, where are things going to be in 24 months? What's your big epic goal that you're moving towards?

So we have a goal. We want to save half a billion plastic bottles by 2030. I'd love to save 250 million within the next 24 months.

Amazing.

So half of that goal, look, when I say big hairy, that's on the edge of not possible. But hey, I thought that about 1 million. So I do. And with that obviously as a subsequent amount of growth, I want a team to be the trusted, let's put a number on it, billion dollar brand that people believe is in it for the right reasons. For example, when you think about Patagonia, the outdoor clothing company, you feel that they, yes, they're absolutely in it to make money, but absolutely they're going to make the best choices for the planet. I believe that wholeheartedly. I don't believe that of many other businesses, if any, I want people to feel like that about ethic. And so that comes with more brand awareness but also doing more good. So with that growth, obviously we will be able to donate much more if we hit that 250 million plastic dollars in the next 24 months. Well, I mean that's a lot. It's a lot more than 5 million donated.

I also want to implement more policies, work more directly. So I talk about our supply chain a lot.

And without question the biggest way business could have the most impact on people and therefore planet would be to tidy up supply chains. Because if you pay people more than enough, actually what they need to live on, then they are far more inclined to go and solve their own social, environmental problems. And you don't need to be a white savior about it and go and try and fix and then inevitably break something more, right?

So if we as a business go out there and work more directly for every single ingredient we source, because we do it for ingredients that we can do right now. But if we go out and find and work with cooperatives to produce ingredients that they perhaps don't know how to produce for the global cosmetic market, then that's going to make a huge change. And the one I'm talking about in particular is palm oil. And the reason, if we had a global boycott of palm oil, we don't use it. We're certified palm oil free. But that's not actually the solution. The only reason we've done that is because palm oil, as it stands now, I don't believe there is a genuinely sustainable version of it.

I want to go and create one, you know, work with and almost buy back farmers and cooperatives who've been effectively trapped by massive corporations into this awful cycle that destroys people and planet and provide them the funding that they need to create a cooperative structure that benefits them and the planet by providing sustainable palm oil. If we all switched off palm oil immediately, it would be devastating for the planet because palm oil is incredibly efficient as an oil and we use a lot more than you might even imagine. So those are the sorts of things, really big picture thinking, how you would change, you know, they're, they're daunting.

I don't say I'm just too many people because people look at me like I'm insane, but people have also been like an insane. So meh.

What I love is you even said the word about five minutes ago. You said impossible. It seems impossible, but I think the people that do make the difference that needs to be made, they live in the land of impossible. Like, living in the land of possible is like, yeah, we'll grow and we'll make some more money and we'll make a little bit of impact. But when you live in the land of the impossible, well, you're willing to do things that otherwise you wouldn't even consider doing. And so I love that you're saying we need to replace that. We need to find a substitute globally for palm oil. That's next level thinking. And interestingly enough, I would say for those business owners out there, the number one chokehold on any business is the leader's psychology. And when a leader, the CEO or whoever it might Be driving the company whenever they have a scarcity mindset, limited mindset, like, let's just make money for our stakeholders things, they stay here, they sort of stagnant. So you have this possibilitarian mindset where you're like, let's see what's impossible and let's just make it possible.

Yeah, that's a really nice summation. I know it annoys people. There is a caveat there because some people are like, oh, you're just so idealistic, you're not practical. And I know that annoys people. But I've also never ever found some. I can't bring around my way of thinking. I've been given enough time. And I get it, because you are, you are taught through your entire life that most things are impossible. It's impossible to change systems, but happens all the time. Change occurs all the time, every day, all day. It's totally possible to change things if you don't like them. It's just hard. And that scares people. So you do. I do get those eye rolls.

It's a sign that you're on the right track. I think when people are rolling their heads or their eyes, it's a sign that you're doing something that really matters and that really gets under people's skin. And keep doing that. If you're not getting those responses now and then, maybe you're not dreaming big enough. Right?

That's probably very true. Yeah, very true.

Can we rewind a second? So you mentioned Hawaii and you were at a women's leadership summit.

No.

Conference.

Yep.

So let's talk about that for a moment because that led to meeting the reporter from Forbes, which led to the Huffington Post and then the tipping point. So a lot of leaders, male and female, tried to be stoic, try to go on their own. And I've got this. But the fact that you flew yourself to Hawaii, you wanted to be at this leadership conference, you wanted to develop your thinking. To me, that's amazing. We need more of that. So how important is ongoing personal leadership development for you?

Massively. I think as a person goes, I'm quite self aware. And.

It'S like you're two people at times because you might be having a reaction. The other side of your brain is like, this is an unnecessary emotional reaction, but it doesn't necessarily stop, you know, feelings, thoughts make feelings. So you've got to. What I like to do is try and isolate why I'm feeling a certain way. And I will use this. For example.

Years ago, if we had a challenge Say manufacturing and we were going to be a couple of days later or we couldn't source this for a few days or just minor challenges that come up all the time. Now I would used to be used to get really panicked about it and stressed and think, well, this is the end of the company. Now I don't feel that way at all. I will entirely skip an emotional reaction about a challenge unless it's enormous and just get straight to solving it. And that's as a result of trying to understand why I panicked in the first place. And it's a, you know, entrepreneurs have got to develop grit and unfortunately it does come with experience and overcoming challenges because then you back yourself from being able to do so. But I would never ever have gotten to the position I am now if I hadn't have really worked hard on resolving that within myself. I'm naturally a more emotional person and I consider that a strength I didn't five years ago. And who knows what I'll be like in five years because I'm committed to always doing better, leading better. I have many, many weaknesses. I have areas within the business I'd like to know more about. Finance I don't love, but I should know more about, for example. And I think the key to a good leader is someone who is never, ever, ever closed off to learning anything, even if it's completely tangential and you have no idea how it would be useful. With the exception of algebra. I don't want to learn any more. Maths.

Yeah, I'm done with that myself.

No, I'm done.

So if I was to jump into your calendar right now, your day to day calendar, where would I see reading, learning, growing that time? Is it scheduled?

No, but I don't like scheduling. My wonderful EA runs my calendar just so I don't forget things. But I.

Anytime, probably after sway horses and anytime after I feed them, that's the time. And you know, I know this is going to sound terrible, but I do a lot of learning on TikTok.

I love it. Tell me how you do that.

The algorithm obviously understands now what I want to know, but it teaches me a lot of things. I mean there's this marketing education on there, there is a lot of anti racism education which the algorithm is showing me nonstop and is fascinating and is totally challenging my worldview in a way that is sometimes uncomfortable. If I'm honest. I am learning so much more about aspects of our society on TikTok, which is, you know, an entertainment platform than I ever imagined.

Probably because when you know I read a lot but they are science based or they're nature based or animal based so they're very rigid area of learning. So TikTok is forcing me to look outside and as a result I then go and learn outside, outside TikTok and read more books on that sort of subject. But yeah, anytime I am a bit of a night owl honestly. Morning people are like aliens. I don't understand them at all. I am not useful till I reckon 10 o' clock in the morning. So anytime after I put the horses away, 8 o' clock onwards is where you and do some study. I'm currently doing a few university papers which I have an exam for on Wednesday that I haven't even started studying for yet.

Yeah so I will go and do that this evening. That's when I go and learn.

This is amazing. Thank you for actually getting into that granularly for us because there we've got a CEO of an exponentially growing company who's doing some university papers. This is gold. Like we all need to hear this because I do feel like when people get to the C suite often it's like destination arrived and just go stagnant and often we can see that. We look around a lot of CEOs and often they are male, often they are white and often they are 45 to 60. And that's a generalization but it's also true. So we need to change that and we need more diversity and inclusion in that C suite and that leadership. So people like yourself, Brianne, are an inspiration and you truly walk the walk.

Thank you. I don't ever. It is, it is a very good point. You say you've hit C suite, you've made it, you have to do anything else. I don't know if I'll ever feel like that I want. I don't feel like I'll ever have learned enough to fulfill the role I'm in, if that makes any sense at all. And I want to go and do so many other things. I want to learn as much as humanly possible. Only here for a short period of time in the world is this the most amazing place. You know, we should sucking it all up and learning and understanding and exploring.

When you say that, it makes me think like mastery is about having a beginner's mindset and never losing the beginner's mindset. Like the curiosity, the desire to grow and always go on what's next? Or what more can I learn? So your mastery is not the destination, it's the keeping that real humility yeah.

Yeah. Because then you never know what you're going to find out, what you're going to learn and what you're going to love.

That's so cool. And for the person that's listening right now that had a shower this morning and they got their big Dove or whatever brand they use and they pumped the big plastic bottle and they put that stuff through their hair, why should they consider getting a shampoo bar or a body bar or a makeup bar from Ethique?

Simple, because it's exactly like what you'd expect in that bottle of products, but without the environmental impact. And you shouldn't underestimate the amount of environmental impact a bottle product has and the social impact too. Where do those ingredients come from? Where will your plastic bottle end up? Only 7 to 9%, depending on where you are in the world of all plastic is ever recycled. Seven to nine. And people assume because it's recyclable it will get recycled. Statistically, it simply won't. So that bottle will stay. Will outlive you or outlive your children, your children's children. Where does that bottle go? Often it ends up in developing nations because that's where we send our rubbish and they certainly can't deal with it and that's why it ends up in our oceans.

It is so easy.

And it's very important that the blame is not put on the consumer. The brands are responsible for the damage they do and they should be held to account. But the only one that can hold them to account is the consumer. So the more we demand better of our brands, the more we boycott brands, that we don't like their choices, the more they will have to.

I think if you're using a liquid product and you're worried that they won't work, which is the number one reason people don't want to switch. And I get that, because change is oftentimes scary.

Understand that it will work. The reviews will say that the global success says that and you can buy it with so much of a clearer conscience. Everything has an impact, but we are trying to ensure that our impact is a good one, not a bad one.

Amazing. And I'll be upfront and be honest with you. I've used liquid shampoo and body wash for years. I'm from a working class town in Ireland. Like that's what we do, we use that sort of one uses. So came to New Zealand and eventually came across a teak and I was like, I don't know what, that's not going to work. It's dry. It's a dry bar. That's not like I need something to go straight in my hair. Right. And then I was like, okay, I'll try it. First time I tried it, I was like, this lathers up better than the stuff that comes from the bottle. So again, it was. Once I tried it, I was like, okay, this works. And it's a great product. So, yeah, I urge people out there that are resistant to it because they have this thing they've used for the last 10 years, give it a try and feel good about giving it a try and know that if you embrace it, that it will make a difference. And that kind of scares me a little bit when you said, look, all those plastic bottles get sent to developing countries. So one, they've got an acute problem. They're dealing with it right now. Then we won't really, as Western countries, be thinking about that problem until it becomes global. And there's going to be a point, obviously, a tipping point, where they can no longer take on all of our rubbish and all of our bottles. So at what point then it goes into the ocean and then we extrapolate that over, say, 100 years or 200 years potentially, that has the difference between our Earth thriving or dying.

Yeah. And I think your hypothetical scenario is a little bit too long term because it's already having massive impact on our oceans. I mean, some countries have already seen, China have been the famous example saying, no, we're not taking rubbish anymore, absolutely fairly so. And it's frustrating to me because I don't see why this problem isn't easily solved. Simply incentivize companies to use recycled plastic by putting a tax on virgin plastic. And all of that tax go straight into building recycling infrastructure in those countries.

Granted, I'm not a policy person. I don't understand how that sort of thing works, but it just seemed like a simple solution. I'm sure it isn't, but.

It certainly seems it.

Yeah, I agree. Yeah. I was interviewing an amazing guy called Kip Evans. It was about a year ago, and Kip is a National Geographic filmographer and he works with Dr. Sylvia Earle. And he.

Yes.

So you obviously have heard of Dr. Sylvia.

Yes, I have worked with her. Yeah, we're. Yeah.

That's cool.

An amazing woman. Yeah.

You two are both amazing women. That's cool that you're collaborating. I love that. So he put together this amazing documentary called, I think it was Mission Blue on Netflix. That was his big. His baby, so to speak. And he just shared with me about what's going on plastic wise. And it is scary to think and it comes from our bathroom and it comes from our little bottles that we. Bottles of water we buy and chuck in the bin. So what you're doing is essential work. Like, we need this for our planet and I want to salute you and you do it with a smile, you do it with humor. Like when people take a moment, jump on and check your Instagram out. It's great you're running a business and having fun whilst doing it.

As I said, you're only here for a short time. You can have an impact and you can still have fun doing it. It is. I see a lot of my generation and the next generation who are apathetic and miserable about the state of things because particularly right now it seems like everything is bad. But there is.

There is no point in not having hope because you're just going to make yourself in a far sadder situation and it can feel overwhelming. But wouldn't you rather go down fighting?

I'm with you 100%. I've got one question. I always like to ask this, to wrap up and ask this to everyone. So if you had a family member who was 5, 5 years old, 5 or 6 years old, and they said, hey, Brianne.

How do I lead life on purpose? How can I lead my life on purpose? What would you say to them?

I would find out. Number one, you've got to find out what resonates with them, you know, what, what makes you get up in the morning. It doesn't have to be a grandiose. I want to save the world. It can be anything. It can be. I want to make healthcare cheaper. I want to have greater access to whatever, whatever it is that makes your heart sing that you want to go and do. And then I figure out a way to implement it in every facet of your life and to make it your career ambition to work on that. And obviously there is a lot of varied paths to get to whatever it is you want, but number one is finding out what it is. And that sounds really stupid. So many people don't know. The majority of people don't know. Everybody has something that they want to fix. Everybody. I've met hundreds of people who. Well, I've met people that have said I don't have any big purpose.

I don't want to solve any problems. But I think it's because they are thinking too big. They think that those purposes have to be, I want to save the orangutan, whatever. It doesn't have to be like that at all. It can be very small, seemingly small, but whatever it is that makes your heart saying, I need to get up in the morning and fix this problem, you've got to identify it first. And that's a lot harder than you imagine. And by learning lots of things, reading lots of books, spending time on TikTok, apparently by doing those sorts of things, you're going to have access to more information and therefore something eventually will hit the nail on the headphone. You'll be like, that's it, I want to do that. I want to go and help get us to Mars, whatever it is, you know. So the more you learn and the more things you try, the more likely you are to find it.

Superb advice. And I'll tell you something, I have resisted TikTok and I read books, I listen to podcasts, and I love learning. I'm going to Sign up for TikTok today and just, just check it out for learning purposes.

You're going to have to give it some time. But the algorithm is smart, it's brilliant and look, it's better than most social platforms. It's when it understands that you. What you want to look at, it's fabulous to just. I know then people are in an echo chamber and that's how extremists are born. I get that that's also a bad aspect, but for me, it is showing me more and more of the stuff that I want to learn and to engage in. Powerful caution required. But you need to give it a bit of time.

And hey, I'll sneak one last one into. If someone wanted to join your movement, the Ethique movement, wanted to work for you, wanted to be a part of it, wanted to contribute, how would they go about doing that?

Well, I mean, we're through the hiring, it seems, so keep an eye out. And it's not always in Aotearoa, New Zealand. We've also got offices in the USA and the uk. Follow us on social media because we're always requesting trialists and testers. So if you want to trial products, you know, that's still helping us. It might feel immaterial. And the other thing, of course, is every time you purchase a product that is more environmentally friendly, you are making a difference. It feels small and it feels inconsequential, but everything you do makes a difference.

Amazing. Amazing. Well, I just want to wish you all the best. And what I'm going to do in the show notes is I'll make sure and put in all your social media channels the website so people can go and check it out. And if people are, say somebody's listening from South Africa or South America, can they order internationally?

Depends on the country. South Africa? No, not at this point, but give it time. But there are countries that we're not in. We have inspired a movement of companies who are doing something similar. So there may well be something local to you. And just. Just one caveat, they may have the solar bar format. Just make sure they've got the values underneath. Some of the bigger brands have not.

Good to know. Look out for the detail.

Yeah. But yeah, we ship to America, Canada, uk, parts of Europe, New Zealand, Australia, parts of Asia.

Amazing. Now keep up the amazing work and I cannot wait in 24 months to invite you back on and we'll check in with that big, massive, hairy, audacious call.

Now worry about saying it. Fingers crossed. You can. But try.

You can do it. I know it now. Thank you so much.

Thank you very much. Great.

Thanks for tuning in today and investing in your own personal leadership. Please hit that subscribe button and I'd love if you'd leave me a rating and review. I've got some amazing guests lined up for you in the coming weeks and leaders. It's that time to get out there and lead your life on purpose.