Revolutionary Leadership: Transforming Cities and Minds from Within with Hila Oren

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Leadership, I think, is a very, very big concept.

Israel is almost light years ahead of many other countries.

I know how to navigate much better than most men. I also don't believe it. Now, how did I do it? Not exactly by the rules. To understand that failure is part of your learnings. When you have a red flag that something is not right, stop and don't. Just continue. I believe that we can't go through this life all by our own. Loneliness is the pandemic of this decade. A real leader is someone who says.

Welcome to Lead on Purpose. I'm James Laughlin, former seven time world champion musician and and now executive coach to global leaders and high performers. In every episode, I bring you an inspiring leader or expert to help you lead your life and business on purpose. Thanks for taking the time to connect today and investing in yourself. Enjoy the show.

This week's special guest is Dr. Hila Oren. During her tenure, Tel Aviv was named the world's smartest city. She is now the CEO of of the Tel Aviv foundation and I want to tell you she thinks right outside the box. You do not want to miss today's episode. Enjoy the show. Hila, a huge welcome to the Lead on Purpose podcast.

Thank you. A huge thank you for having me.

Well, you know, I'm so glad that we get a chance to connect and that you've created this space to do so. Our great friend from the Christchurch Foundation, Amy Carter, introduced us. So grateful to Amy and I've heard so many great things about you, but I want to peel back the onion, so to speak, and get inside that amazing head of yours, understand how you think. And for the listener that's listening right now, I think what's really important is that you've got such a global perspective and you're in Tel Aviv, so you've got a very different perspective to the listener that's sitting in London or in New Zealand or North America. And that's what I'm really interested in is how do you Think. How do you think differently? And what difference does that make for the people around you? So let's, let's rewind the clock to get started. Started. So I understand you founded a company when you were 25 years old, is that right?

Yeah. I also don't believe it. Now how did I do it when I was 20?

100%. It's amazing. And so let's talk about why did you find that, what was it that inspired you? Because most 25 year olds are traveling the world and partying and drinking. What inspired you to go, you know what, there's something I've got to do here.

So here it is. First of all, I was very lucky and I already traveled the world when I was 20 for a year. I was backpacking all over and I think it brought me some, you know, some, some ideas of how the world looks like and what it feels there and global thoughts, etc. At the age of 25, you'll be surprised, but I already had a little bit of experience. I had two years of army of which is a lot for a youngster. I had one year of backpacking all over the world and I had three years as a student in a very, in the university in a very interesting program. But at the same time what I wanted to do to earn my living would again sound a little bit weird. But I went to be a teacher. So I was teaching in a very, very unique art school. So here I am finishing my first degree in university teaching at the same time the most gifted kids for arts. And I thought, and then I met an old friend that said, hey, we're launching some kind of.

A company.

For arts and leisure courses, et cetera. And I told him, hey, you're doing it in such an expensive way and not efficient and not creative, da da da, I can do it much cheaper, much easier. Now I don't know how I said that, where did I have the guts? But maybe that's part of being young, that's part of being very autonomy again. In Israel, when I was at the age of 18 already the army counted on me so much. I had all my roles over there. So this looked in a way little. I mean not little but, but not such a big deal. I don't want to say little but not such a big deal. I jumped into it and at the same time I was lucky, lucky because I had my, my boyfriend, but I didn't have kids or I didn't have any other commitments. So I can dive all in, into this, making this company so Actually, someone triggered me. It's not that I said, you know, I sat down and said, okay, let's initiate a company. Someone came up to me and I said, hey, I can do it much easier. And he was my partner. So it gave me, in a way, a little bit of support that there's somebody with me. I didn't do it all alone with the support of money and everything, but the way I jumped into it and the way I did it in three months, I had 50 employees.

Myself. I don't know how I did it, but it was great. It was a great experience. That company, by the way, I'm very, very proud because it still exists until now. That means it exists for 30 years. And the name of that company is very, very symbolic to me. The name is Freedom. So.

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That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. And that's really, really interesting that it's still here. That says a lot. And you said something that's really interesting. I think a lot of people will be picking up on this. And you said two years in the army. Now, I have friends from Israel and I, I understand how it works, but there might be some listeners going, what do you mean two hours in. In the two years in the army? How does. What does it look like for Israelis?

All Israeli youth knows that when they come to the age of 18, women go for two years and men go for three years. Now, I'm not a man. I'm very, very lucky because the men are much more.

You know, it's a much bigger challenge because some of them really go to fight. And some of them do professional courses. For the women, it's just, just the opposite. And especially when I went to the army at the 80s, I went to the army, 83 to 85 women did not go to fight. There were no women on air, you know, as pilots or professional things. So we did lots of professional. Sorry, we did lots of professional things, but not out there fighting in wars. So for me, I was very, very lucky to do a very specific, interesting role in the nature, as there's. There's a very big NGO called spni, Social Preserve Nature of Israel. And they comb with the army because they understand that the soldiers need to get all this training and understanding about how to keep the nature of Israel and how to make it sustainable, etc. Etc. So I was out there all the time. Like I know how to navigate much better than most men with a map you can throw me anywhere. And I know how to take a map and take with me people and stay out in the wilderness for like a week. Maybe this is something that really.

Had a very big influence on my, on my sub subconscious 100%.

And I would say that that's where Israel is, almost light years ahead of many other countries, because most other countries we don't have to go to go to the army. And most young people choose not to do that. What you guys have done and what you continue to do is quite incredible. And I want to ask you about leadership because a lot of young individuals, 18, 19, 20, leadership is not anywhere on their radar. But how do you feel being in the army actually influenced a little bit of your mindset around leadership?

So leadership, I think, is a very, very big concept that even myself, where I, from the age of 13 or 14, I was in a youth movement, you know, like Scouts, but in another one where you talk leadership. And then I did the army and then I did so many things and leadership was always here. But in a way I thought that leadership is for politicians. You know, I am, I want to be a professional one. So I'm going, I'm doing everything in a professional way, not in a political way. So I left the leadership, although I was into it, left it to the politicians. And then I was very, very lucky and privileged again to go to Harvard Kennedy School in 2016, when I was quite mature already, that's just eight years ago. And there I was introduced to the one and only Shackleton. And the story about Shackleton and his leadership, his professional leadership, not a political leadership, the way he took the group after him and the way he brought everybody back after three years is taught in Harvard to all Kennedy School students, as a masterpiece of adaptive leadership. And what does leadership for managers really mean? And I came back to Israel and then, you know, started understanding leadership with my role to the very, very deep layer of it. And then, luckily, your serendipity brought me to Christchurch, got to know Amy and everyone. I went to the Shackleton hall and I shared with her this amazing story of myself being a professional leader and not actually being aware of it, and then understanding my role by knowing Shackleton and his story and combining both of the stories. And since I talk all the time, I talk to my staff, my colleagues over here in the Tel Aviv foundation or anywhere else where I am. And I put a lot of emphasis about what leadership is in roles, in professional roles. That means not just to do what we're supposed to do or what the budget says or what our colleagues think, but what is the right thing to do. Sometimes it's even not exactly by the rules or by what we're supposed to do. And sometimes we have to go out of the box, or as I like to call it, crack the code, but make it different so things will really happen. And this is why I enjoyed so much working with Christchurch, because I think the former mayor, the Honorable Lynn Diesel, I think I'm pronouncing her name right, took a lot of leadership by bringing the city after the earthquake and making a very big change.

Agreed. Well, thank you for sharing that. And I want to just spend a moment with Shackleton. So I'm a big fan of the Arctic and Antarctic explorers. I do a lot of reading and I'm fascinated by them. So Shackleton is one of the greats, one of the epic leaders. So for the listener that's listening or watching right now, going, I've never heard of Shacklet. First of all, they got to get a book and learn about him. But secondly, what do you think are those leadership attributes that Shackleton has that are just phenomenal?

So a couple of them. First of all, the way he chose his men before even going on the mission. So this is for any professional leader, any professional CEO really make being very, very careful about the people you choose to go on the mission with you. It doesn't matter which mission, it doesn't need to be an exploring, by the way, for myself, I think that any mission or anything we do is an exploring mission. This is the way I refer to my life and to my professional life, but especially anybody who's listening to us and he knows, he or she knows what their task is for the next two, three years or even half a year or one month. Make sure that you choose the right people that will be with you that you think are the right people. Put a lot, be very, very careful on that and, and give a lot of thought to that. So this is one thing, then second thing, once you go on the mission, this is where Shackleton did a little bit of a mistake, but I think he learned from it is when you have a red flag that something is not right, you feel that you're not doing the right thing. Stop and don't just continue because Shackleton did continue. That was his mistake. So for me to learn from that is when whenever a red flag is being pulled up, stop there, make a rethinking and sometimes you have to re navigate your way literally. And then sometimes you do mistakes. That's okay. A real leader is someone that says, okay, I did a mistake, but now how am I still making the best out of it and correcting my way or correcting my path, my task. And before anything, first of all, bringing all my men, women, whatever, all my staff back home alive. And when I say alive, they were really under life and death.

Situation. But for me, for instance, the COVID when all my staff, we were on Covid on, on, you know, March over here in Israel had started in April, I called on istap, we said together, everybody.

In the municipality and other, lots of organization next to me.

Actually let the staff go on a leave or something or you know.

Got them free. I said just the opposite, no, we're sticking together, we're coming every day to work and we're initiating the emergency fund, the mayor's emergency fund. And actually because of that we doubled our money that we rose at that time. So that means instead of getting, letting them go away, they all needed certainty. And I think the way we did it to stick together and stay and even double our work, we succeeded even more.

That's so inspirational and I know there will be a listener listening now going, oof. I did the opposite of that and I really paid the price during COVID.

What is it that give you the courage to do that? Most people played it very safe and thought about the numbers and revenue and got very protective. What gave you the courage to go? No, I'm going to go and do it a different way?

I think it's a combination of a couple of things. First of all, there's a personality. Not everyone.

Has an entrepreneur or an explorer personality. And that's okay. We don't need only explorers. We need all. Like I need as an explorer, I need a staff around me that supports me with certainty, with security, with lots of things that, that help me be that entrepreneur and take that courage. So it's a personality, that's one thing. It's a support from the organization. Like my mayor here is a leader by himself and a big supporter and has his courage. So it gives you the support to do what you think. You can go consult with him. I shared with him what I said and he said, yeah, go for it. So always stick to people that support you from above or from a side or you know, however you see it from your organization. At the same time, a very big support from home. That means it doesn't matter who your partner or sometimes you live alone without a partner, but a family. I'm a very big believer of supporting circles. I have three kids, a 30 year old that is already married, another 28 year old and a 13 year old. And always I talk to them about circles of support. I believe that we can't go through this life all by our own loneliness is something that doesn't give you courage, but support and circles of support and that can be friends, that can be.

Colleagues, that can be.

Sometimes even your pets.

All different.

Groups of support.

Give the. I do this movement because I think the circle really makes you feel much more courageous.

100%. Yeah. You look either way and you've always got someone in front of you, to the side of you. You've got that support. And I absolutely agree with that. And under your watch, Tel Aviv was named that was it the smartest city in the world. Tell me more about that. That's amazing. So congratulations, first of all, what is the smartest city in the world? What does that look like?

So I think about 15 years ago, 20 years ago, they started coining the term smart city. Now there's not a real one definition for that, but a smart city is a city that is more efficient that the focus on it. Barcelona has a big, very big event every November that they give out that trophy for the city. Each year a different city wins the prize. We were very lucky 2014 to get that prize. And I think what we brought to the table, which made it even more interesting, because the cities that win it or that talk about smart cities sometimes about infrastructure, about.

Lightning, about.

Garbage, about lots of different.

Ingredients that the city is part of. But what Tel Aviv and specifically me, what we talk about is about the social parts of the city, the residents, a Smart city for me is a city that knows how to listen to its residents, which is not easy either, either really physically to meet with them in so many different ways, or through digital.

Infrastructure, whether it's the web or.

The apps or all different info that you can get online and understand and listen to the residents and the different communities. Because when we talk cities, New York, Tokyo, London, Christchurch, Tel Aviv are all different. They have all different DNAs, all different identities. And the smart city of Oakland would not look like the smart city of Jerusalem. So each city has to tailor, made its own resolutions. And I think Tel Aviv is combining what we talked in the beginning, because we're all Israelis and because in a way we think out of the box, we.

Illustrate.

Melterine.

We do it differently. So.

The way we allow ourselves.

To bring solutions.

Makes our cities a little bit smarter.

And I love how you describe that, because the thing that comes to mind, and maybe there's some listeners as well, when you think smart city, you're like technology and smart tech and all this. But actually a smart city is a city that understands its people, values its people, listens to its people. And so for you, go ahead.

Sorry, no, I said, and make new solutions for it. Not only to listen, but how to give. I actually started teaching in the last three years a very interesting course in the Tel Aviv University Architecture School. My students are architects that are starting learning how to architect. And the course's name is the ergonomic City. You know, like an ergonomic chair that knows how to adjust to you. The same thing is how does the city knows how to adjust to you? And again, mostly in the public spaces. So that's a very, very big issue about smart cities and its public spaces and the way that the residents can enjoy it.

Let's chat about that, because I'm sure when you think about global expansion, global populations increasing, we think of cities that are very dense. And when we think of lots of concrete and high density, often that means disconnection. We're not connecting with people, we're not connecting with place or nature. So when you talk about these public spaces and your experience and research with them, what do you mean by that?

Hey, James here. I wanted to take a quick moment to let you know about something. Look, I get asked to deliver keynotes and workshops for teams and companies all over the world, from London to Antarctica, from America to Australasia, from, from armies to small businesses to large corporates to sports teams. But I go in and deliver keynotes around the mindset of high performers around the habits of high performers about how we navigate change. If you would like me to come and speak to your team or speak at your conference or deliver a bespoke workshop, please get in touch with my team. Carolinejlochlan.com will be able to help. I'll also make sure that we put that in the show notes.

Think just the opposite. Think of pockets of public spaces, like little places of greenery, a little bit of, of, you know, two trees, some, some grass. It doesn't always have to be by the way, green, but green always helps us because we need, you know, because of climate change we want to reduce the temperature. So green always, greenness always helps that. But it can be also, even if it's not green, but it has to have shade, it has to have some outdoor furniture so people can sit before anything. People want to meet each other now. If they just walk or stroll around with their dog, they won't talk too much, they may exchange hellos. But if we want them to reduce the loneliness and actually meet and brainstorm or talk to or get to know each other, we have to make sure that the infrastructure outside is ready for that. So that means put chairs outside, put shade outside, put trees, cameras, light for the night so you'll feel comfortable at night. Not, you know, as in the morning. Like I remember talking to the CBD in Christchurch where most of the businesses would close at 5 or 6 in the afternoon. Everybody goes to their home. And I said, hey, let's open up a little bit the city. Let's put lights on, let's put music, let's put cameras so we, our personal security will feel better. We'll have the chairs, we'll have some programs outdoors. It sounds like it's putting.

It'S expensive and it's putting money into it, which is. But the amount is much cheaper than the violence otherwise and the loneliness and all the results that, the negative results that we have either than just.

Supporting a little bit of infrastructure that helps the people really feel much better and their well being, which is so important, gets higher.

It's incredible. And when we think about it, it is a very logical and simple solution. However, so many people put boundaries in the way of those simple solutions. So when you're thinking of when you are leading a foundation versus leading say a corporate or a business, what's different about leading those two different entities?

So a corporate at the end of the day needs to be a bottom line for its owner. It's all about money. Foundations are NGOs that are all about Doing good. And it's not that we can lose money, we have to be balanced. But the issue is about the well being of the people, the well being of the residents of the city. And every time we have to change because the well being today is not the well being of 20 years back or 20 years in the future. So we have to adjust our work plan all the time. We have to work in partnerships and in collaborations with public private partnerships. I think the private sector in a way, is always more agile and more fast and supple than us in the public sector. But the public sector has more power because we own the, you know, the, the.

The buildings and the city and the outdoor.

Infrastructure. So I always talk to my colleagues and to myself. Sometimes it's easy when a person comes to you with an idea just to say no and explain why not. And there's so many reasons about insurance and security and oh, the little kid can fall to the water or do that or do this. And I always try to challenge myself and my colleagues to the opposite. How can we say yes? How can we try and make it? And you know, in a way, I like the tagline of Nike, just do it now. When you do it, you have mistakes. Sometimes that's okay, but you know, whoever doesn't, we all have mistakes, but at least we do it and then we can correct. By the way, like again, let's go back to my, my beloved Shakleton. He did something. Okay, he did some mistakes, but at the end of the day, he did so much interesting things for his nation.

So 100% no, thank you. And when we think of what you studied. So I believe your thesis was on the global branding of Tel Aviv and my Ph.D. your Ph.D. was the global branding of Tel Aviv. Incredible. So most people don't think of a city and its brand being a, being a global thing. So what made you choose that and what have you learned that other cities could really grasp onto?

So actually when I started working on the issue of Tel Aviv and the branding, we did not go automatically to global in the way in the beginning, Tel Aviv was celebrating its centennial in 2009, and I was in charge of that. The whole, it was called the Centennial Administration. A whole year of content and.

Programs for the centennial. And we were at the beginning focused inside, but then we did a little bit of events in New York, in Vienna. Wow. And we were exposed to that potential of global brand for the city, for Tel Aviv and for other cities. It actually started a big era of cities in the world. Professor Sasky and Sassen coined the term global cities. The cities that have global business centers that connect to big connectivity to other cities in the world through hubs of transportation and hubs of flights and business centers. And I thought Tel Aviv, if we want to really get sustainable and be a strong city, we have to look outside to our global brand and how to attract tourists and international students and business, especially from the innovation.

I would say ecosystem that at the time, I don't know if you're aware, but in 2010 there was a very interesting book published in the name of Startup Nation. It talked about Israel, but actually showed that the focus of that Startup Nation is Startup City is Tel Aviv. This is where everything was created by our young, very, very creative businessmen and women, young people that created all these startups. So when I understood that global potential, again, I came with the idea and offered the mayor to initiate a local company called Tel Aviv Global. Thesis actually researched the company that I initiated here. Now, since at the age of 25, I initiated a company, a private company, and then at the age of 40, I initiated a public company in another city, small city. And then, you know, to come to Tel Aviv and initiate my third company was already easier. And also it was not really mine, it was the city's company. I just came with the idea. So, and again, as I shared before, I got the support of the mayor, I got the support of the, of the private sector, got a lot of collaborators together and started working with my colleagues in New York, in London, we went to Michael Bloomberg when he was the mayor at the time and he supported us. Barcelona, that I work with them very closely until today. London, lots of cities all over the world where I actually learned that they are working on their global issues also. And in a way, it's not that I invented something. I just joined the wave like, you know, like a surfer. I took my surfing board and surfed on the very good wave of innovation and global cities all the way to the safe shore. And this is where we find ourselves. By the way, when I worked on it, I said that the 10 years from 2020 will be the big window of opportunity of Tel Aviv. And after 2020 we'll have to re navigate our way again. I would never know that Covid will come, but Covid came. But not only Covid and I do think that Tel Aviv now needs to navigate its global brand again. And I talk internally here about it. I think before we did a lot of work about ecosystem and startup. I think now we need to take it more into the health innovation ecosystem. Because I think first of all we have a very big.

City hospital here which is doing an enormous great job. And I think through Covid, what this, what the nation here did was again mind blowing. Lots of parts of the world actually learned from us where the.

Sometimes you can learn things when you research them half a year later or a year later, like New Zealand at the beginning everybody thought that dealt beautifully with the COVID but we learned that closing a place is not the right.

The right answer or the right.

How would I say, strategy where although your prime minister did her best and she really tried to do the best thing she could, but I think we saw that was not the right solution. And I think what Tel Aviv and what Israel did is not being afraid about trying, doing new things. Maybe to fail the part of our nature, part of our DNA is to be entrepreneurs and to be entrepreneurs, that means not to be afraid of failures. To understand that failure is part of.

Your learnings, part of your path. So this is, I think.

The way that I took the strategy of Global when you asked me, just like you asked me, how did I initiate my company when I 25, where did I have the courage to initiate Tel Aviv Global when I was 2010? I don't know. And actually at the same time I just gave birth to guy like I was a young mom at the same time. Not a young mom because I had my older daughters. But it's interesting. I think a lot of it is listening to your guts and if you see something that is right and that you're good in it and your guts tells you and you got the support, go for it. Don't be afraid of your failure. Because the worst thing can happen is you fail and still you can always learn and recalculate your way.

You're the epitome of leading on purpose. I really love it. It's really inspiring. And when we think of Tel Aviv and where it's heading, what do you think are Tel Aviv's greatest challenges right now?

Wow. So Tel Aviv, you cannot disconnect it from the country. I think Israel and Tel Aviv have big challenges, value wise, democracy, pluralism. This is something that is very, very important for Tel Aviv. But the country is having a very big.

I would say.

Conflict within, between values. And we'll have to see in a couple of years where does that conflict of values take us and where the city knows to stick and stay like a lighthouse to all the rest of the country and stick to our democracy values and our pluralism and our responsibility for all, etc. So this is one very big challenge, the value challenge. We have, of course, urban challenges, like lots of the cities in the world, which is transportation, cost of living, I would dare to say loneliness, this is something that is not talked enough. But I think more and more is understood that loneliness is the pandemic of this decade. And this is why myself, again, I go into the public spaces that we shared before. I see the public space as an equalizer, as a place where people that are very rich or very poor can feel for a couple of minutes or a couple of hours the same or equal, and meet out the way that it's on the beach, in the street.

They can share.

Experiences, they can share their work together, their friends, their values. And we put a lot of efforts into developing our public spaces so people will feel more and more safe and will want to be out there and not in their apartments. By the way, we know that because of the cost of living, the apartments that are being built are getting smaller because the cost of living is higher. So you can be in your apartment for certain things, but you can go outside and enjoy the free air at different hours of the day. Because again, we know that climate change is also challenging by itself in the different places around the world. But still we can stay out there. And Covid taught us we can stay and enjoy the public spaces. Public spaces, not only the streets, but also buildings, the rooftops, the beautiful.

Porches.

And when you think about this, those challenges you just described, I can see that there's lots of other countries with very similar challenges. And what do you think in terms of a leader? What type of leadership do we need to see to navigate these uncertain times?

So we need leaders, first of all from both genders, because I think that men and women are equal in their capabilities, but they are different in their nature. And having men and women around the table of decision makers makes the decisions that come out better. So I do suggest always to make sure that we have all genders. I also like also to have youth.

In the decision making, because.

Young people at the ages of 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 already know so much about their lives and they can share and bring fresh solutions and fresh thoughts and angles to the table that can really make a change in the decision. That's one thing. Like, again, who are the people there? That's the first question. And then how do you deal with the answers? That means, don't stick all the time to old policies, but make sure you're thinking out of the box. You are Using the resources for the benefit of all.

You're sharing everyone with the fruit of success and you constantly.

Challenge yourself with what you're doing. Maybe what you're doing is great, but maybe some things need to be changed. And it's not always, or I dare to say it's mostly you as the top person in the, in the organization, you don't have all the answers. You have to very, you know, keep your ears open and all the time look and ask for different suggestions from consultants from outside.

And take everyone on that path to their well being. Because at the end of the day, what do we want from the world, right? We want to enjoy it. We want to have good health. We want to be with our family.

I like the term that they call it, be water. Like know how to.

Flow with the chain of life.

That's beautiful. And I like how you, you talk about listening and you've mentioned that twice. You know, when you're leading a city, you've got to listen to your residents. And when you're leading a team, you've got to listen to your people and get consultants. That's, that's really valuable information and insights. Now, I want to ask you one last question before we do wrap up. So, Hila, if we were to fast forward way into the future, many, many years, and you know that it's your last day here on earth and someone very young comes into the room, it could be a grandchild or a great grandchild, and they say, hila, how do I lead my life on purpose? What would you say to them?

I would say a couple of things. First of all, make sure that all the time what you do is out of freedom. Nobody tells you what to do and how to do. You make sure that your freedom is always there. Second thing is passion could be connected to your passion, to what you want to do, to where you want to go, to where your partners want to go. So when you have freedom and passion, I think it's two.

Two major.

Engines. And at the same time, make sure that you have with you friends, family, as I called it, a circle of support that you are all the time in a, in a place where you feel good, where you feel love, where you love others. That's why it's very important for me to be loved and to love my family and to be loved and love in my organization. And sometimes when I, you know, sometimes on that journey, not everybody likes you or you're not always with people that share the same thing. That's okay. It's fine. But just either make sure that you make it up with them or sometimes depart and say goodbye. That's also okay. Not always to stick to people that don't give you the comfortable situation. I think when you have all that, when you're very, very comfortable and loved at the place you are, when you have the freedom to do things and you are, you have your passion, what do you need? Else, do what you want.

That's a life of purpose right there. Beautifully described. So thank you and thanks for creating the space today. I really appreciate it and you're doing incredible work and I'm really excited to connect with you in person over the next year, whether that's in Tel Aviv or in London or down here in Christchurch. I'm sure in one of those locations we will connect.

Jane, so much. Thank you so much. And I'm looking exactly the same to meet you either in Christchurch or in London or in Tel Aviv. Let's say let's meet in three. In. In all three places.

Hey, that sounds better.

A different perspective. So let's meet in Tel Aviv, in London and in Crisis. And let's see, after these three meetings, what do we get?

I like that. I like the sound of it. And hey, please continue to do your great work. It's just simply incredible.

Thank you so much. And for you, please keep on echoing us. That's interesting also, I think for me and for other people.

Thank you. Thank you so much.

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