Rowing 2,200km Across the Tasman: Shaun Quincey’s Journey of Pain, Pressure, and Privilege

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I was crying and sobbing. This is terrible. And he goes up. I was like, oh. And he goes just up. And I was like, oh. Okay.

So 1977, your dad becomes the first person in the world to row from New Zealand to Australia across the crazy Tuscan. Then you, his son, decide I'm going to do the opposite. I'm going to start in Coffs harbor and I'm going to come across like you landed an 80 mile beach.

For me, it was so obvious. I. I had to try. I had to do it.

When did you actually do it?

I did it at 23. Yeah. Day four. I wanted to get off.

You had enough?

I had enough, yeah. This is, this is really hard. My hands are bleeding, my backside's bleeding.

My fears kick in right away. I'm thinking of big waves, I'm thinking of animals. It probably destroyed me.

The boat got pushed and then what looked like a combi van sized grey head pushed the boat to the left and popped out of the water. I was trapped upside down. The boat got flipped and I couldn't get the boat back up again. There was some hard days where I couldn't sit up. I was lying in my cabin and I was like, I can't sit up.

What were some of those fears that came up when you're out there by yourself?

Well, it got so bad that I was going to set the boat on fire.

What did you say to yourself? How did you overcome that moment of hands?

I don't know. Everyone wants something but it's really that. What sort of journey are you wanting to go through? Foreign.

Welcome to Lead On Purpose. I'm James Laughlin, former seven time world champion and now international keynote speaker and high performance leadership trainer. Each week I bring you an inspiring leader or expert to help you lead your life and business on purpose. Thanks for helping us be a consistently number one ranked show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. I hope you enjoy today's show.

The Lead on Purpose podcast is sponsored by NZ Mortgages Learn more at nzmortgages. Co NZ Shaun, a huge welcome to the Lead On Purpose podcast.

Thank you for having me. It's wonderful to be here.

Look, I'm so glad you're here because literally yesterday you got off a flight from France. We're sitting here in Auckland, but you got off a flight from France after being to the Olympics.

I did, I did. And I won't lie to you, I've been partying pretty hard for 14 days.

Well, new Zealand's done quite well. There's been a lot of gold medals and silver medals. So you've a reason to party, I think.

Absolutely. I just had a filled with gratitude. I had a spectacular opportunity to go and watch the Olympics and watch some amazing New Zealand athletes win medals. And I screamed and supported as hard as I could. And so I apologise to all your listeners about my voice and you as well.

No, it's great. I can hear you loud and clear.

So.

So let's talk about you now. You're quite remarkable. In fact, I'll go back a little bit further. I'm gonna talk about your dad. So 1977, your dad becomes the first person in the world to row from New Zealand to Australia across the crazy Tasman.

Yes.

Now, nobody broke that record, nobody beat him. Then you, his son, decide, I'm gonna do the opposite. I'm gonna start in Coffs harbor and I'm gonna come across and like. You landed a 90 mile beach.

Yeah, that's right.

Unbelievable. So you're two world record holders. Nobody's beat you guys to this. Phenomenal. Why would you do such a thing?

Well, I don't know if I've ever been able to accurately answer that, apart from if you see a mountain and there's either a part of you that wants to climb it, or there's a party that sits back and goes, no way, that's not for me. And for me it was so obvious. I had to try, I had to do it. That was a seed that was planted by dad. And I think the fact that Dan had gone in one direction and I had the opportunity to be the first to go in the other direction lit something inside of me that I couldn't not chase. And it was a special moment because I had such clarity that I absolutely had to do that and I wanted to do it and I didn't want anyone else to do it. And so it was a combination of the competitive, I suppose, monster inside me that I really wanted to, one, beat my dad and two, I didn't want anyone else to have that accolade. And so those were the two big driving forces for me that I wanted to do it. Why, why dad wanted to do it, I don't know. I think around the world at the time there was a lot of ocean rowing going on and he felt that that could be his, that could be something he could put his name to and, and perhaps that's what he wanted to do is just.

Just that it's amazing because I look at that and I go, whoa. My fears kick in right away. I'm thinking of big waves, I'm thinking of animals that could probably destroy me. I'm thinking of capsizing. I'm thinking of large ocean liners that I might come into contact with. I've got all these barriers, right? You didn't have those. You mentioned the word clarity. You were radically clear. I want to do that. So what age and stage did you do that?

I think I knew with almost absolute clarity from about 16 that I wanted to try it, that I had.

And when did you actually do it?

I did it at 23. Yeah, 24. Yeah, May. I can't quite remember. 23, 24. So.

And was that the kind of thing where you're like, hey, I started thinking about it at 16 and then a couple of months out I'm just going to go do it, or was there real detailed, thorough planning and preparation?

I think the thoughts as a 16 year old were different to the, to the mapping and planning as a 22 year old, even though I think as 20, 21, 22, when I was probably putting things in place, you were still. There's a huge level of naivety and 21 year old confidence, which is probably a combination of that naivety as well. I think it was thinking about it for that period of time, not necessarily researching, but understanding my will and my vision and my want to do it, which really came to fruition in that 21, 22, 23, when I knew that actually I have to do this now and it's the best time to do it because I've got no children, I've got no mortgage, I really have nothing to lose and now is the time. So there was the combination of those things where I think I'd put enough thought to know that I want to do it. That sort of the universe had come together a little bit. That time was right and I was ready.

Unreal. And I imagine there's probably a couple of components. So there's a physical preparation and then there's gotta be this mental, emotional preparation as well. So from a physical standpoint, what did that look like those couple of years leading in? What did you have to do physically, the body getting out on the water?

Yeah, I think I was quite unprepared physically, and that was for a number of reasons.

I had a number of accidents that happened just before that trip where I put a chisel through my hand so I couldn't row for a month. Then I got appendicitis after I put a chisel through my hand. So the two months leading up to when I actually left, I hadn't rowed really at all. So big setbacks in terms of physical condition. The interesting thing about ocean rowing is it's kind of just ticking over. You can never really move the boat much faster than 4 kilometers an hour. And so it's more about getting your head into the right space of being able to sit down and row for 15 hours a day, all day, every day, in the wet, in the cold, when you're going backwards, that's really more the challenge. So physically what I tried to do is get myself ready for that. And so one of the things I did was tried to break the world record for rowing a thousand kilometers in an indoor rowing machine, which I failed at. So I got to 850km over three days on a Concept 2 machine and then kind of realized one, I didn't want that record enough and that I'd proved to myself that I got there. The other thing which I don't talk too much about is I had quite severe epilepsy. And so that was a test to see how I was medicating with my epilepsy medicine and just going through that extreme fatigue and lack of sleep and so not sleeping for three days and rowing continuously. How that worked with my epilepsy medicine and whether that was going to trigger a seizure, and it didn't trigger a seizure over three days. And so I kind of hopped off at 850ks, went well, job's done.

And I was wrecked. So, yeah. So physically I got ready for that challenge and then I proved to myself, well, that's all I need to be able to do.

Incredible. And if you don't mind if we talk a bit about the epilepsy, has that impacted your life in a significant way?

Well, yeah, it did initially. But with every bad thing that happens that you overcome, it kind of sets you up for another good thing. Right. And I guess it's how you, you steer into adversity. You either allow it to send you down A dark spiral, or you look at it as an opportunity. And I was always going to join the military. I was always going to be in the army or tried to get into officer cadet school at 16. Then they said no and they should go back and finish civ form and go back again. And then it was either army or air Force. And then I had a seizure halfway through semaphorm, which they just said, okay. The computer says, no, you're. You can't do that. And so that was always what I was going to do. And so that was a big hit for me because my whole. Right. I grew up with the military background and so that's what I loved and I had a huge amount of respect for it. It was a simple pathway and so I kind of had to reset. And so that epilepsy kind of did throw me down a path, but a much, much better path, I would say, a path I'm really grateful I went down.

See, a lot of others, I imagine, would have gone to the military. Then epilepsy comes along. That would have been it. They would have crumbled. It would have been misery for them and potentially their life could have taken a very negative spiral. What do you think was different for you? Like, what were some of those influences? Maybe whether it was your parents or your environment around you, what gave you mental fortitude?

Hey, James here. I wanted to take a quick moment to let you know about something. Look, I get asked to deliver keynotes and workshops, workshops for teams and companies all over the world, from London to Antarctica, from America to Australasia, from armies to small businesses to large corporates to sports teams. But I go in and deliver keynotes around the mindset of high performers, around the habits of high performers, about how we navigate change. If you would like me to come and speak to your team or speak at your conference or deliver a bespoke workshop, please get in touch with my team. Carolinejlochlan.com will be able to help. I'll also make sure that we put that in the show notes.

Combination of the people around me, I think, who craft, who coached me and gave me feedback.

And I remained coachable through a number of those period. During that period of time, I think I was involved in surf life saving, which a lot, a lot of people within that organisation saw what had happened and allowed me to stay involved. So they allowed me to keep working as a lifeguard, allowed me to take part in a whole lot of different things. And so that was my. I guess I got purpose from service, which I a big believer in. So I was still able to serve, still able to give back to the community and still able to fulfil that, I suppose, I don't know, military type service instincts, which made me feel good. So that kept me on the straight and narrow and I was still racing surfboats, so that was awesome. So I guess the background in sport and surf life saving was able to. I was able to keep contributing and doing things to keep me focused on just staying healthy and being involved in a community and everything. So rather than just going down a spiral of nothingness, I was able to keep focused on that. But it really did throw me because I was enrolling in all sorts of different uni papers just trying to figure out, well, if not this, then what? Right? This was. I was meant to be, you know, going down to waiuru and doing all this stuff and.

Couldn'T do that. So surf kept me focused and then I suppose I just muddled my way through life for, I guess about three or four years after that, not quite knowing where I was going to go.

That's amazing. It's interesting. I read a study recently around happiness and many of us think it's like it's a destination, like we reach it and we get the job or the car or the amazing partner or the house, that's happiness. But the study revealed that it's more of a. It's a journey, it's a direction rather than a destination. And they said there was three things that were important for that feeling of happiness. It's being in the pursuit of enjoyment, satisfaction or meaning or purpose. Another word for meaning is purpose. So when you're in the pursuit of one of those three things, something that's enjoyable or brings you satisfaction or meaning, it brings us degree of happiness. It sounds like you constantly find that through service, through being a part of a community. And to me, that brings most people a lot of meaning.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think it's such a critical thing, which I try and teach my kids, that giving back to the community, creating opportunities for others in the community for whether it's through surf life saving, I run a fishing club, Whatever it might be like, it's just the, you're part of something, you're part of the community, you're part of making other people feel like they've got something to be a part of too. And I'm a big club man, I love clubs. And I think what they do for society is they give you a home, they give you a base and a grounding and you've always got somewhere to go back to. And my old school principal from years ago, Paul Daly, said, always be part of something that's bigger than yourself. And that's, to me, that makes you feel good. Right. As you know that you're part of that thing and those moments of that organization and you can always go back there. And so, yeah, I think that's a big part of my life and always will be.

Good advice from Mr. Daly there.

That's good. Yeah, it was good. It was very good actually.

I can really, I can really relate to that. I was in pipe bands all my life, playing drums in a bagpipe band and that's what brought me to New Zealand. And when I arrived in New Zealand, I instantly had like 40 friends.

Yeah.

Because we shared this common passion or music.

Yeah.

Now I've got an eight year old and we've been talking. We live in Littleton and not far from Sumner and Redcliffe there's all these surf life saving clubs and we're thinking of getting them started. What's your advice on that?

Oh, get them into it. Yeah, totally, absolutely. Well, one, they learn how to swim and surf, right. So that's. So as a core principle, you want your kids to be able to swim and surf, right. New Zealand's surrounded by beaches, so make that. Secondly, it's the whole. Right. Learn about how to rescue others. Learn that service aspect. So stand on a beach and help other people and that's. Teach other people how to be safe actually rescuing someone. And when you actually rescue someone, it's just amazing, right? It's just an incredible fulfilling feeling. And as a 14 year old, you can be a qualified surf lifeguard in New Zealand and save some lives. And that's a. Look, it's just an amazing moment where you go far out. I've, you know, I've helped that person. That's, that's pretty awesome. So real. Yeah, so I think that's again, it's just about being part of something to help the community, you know, be big. Be part of something that's bigger than yourself and the world will get better and you will be better and feel happier as a person.

No, I think we'll. Something we'll actually explore with them because it's a, it's a great community. I've seen a lot of people come out of surf life saving. Yeah, that's very competitive as well.

I love about it. Yeah. There's winning and losing and that's other things you've got to, you know, teach. But it's also kind of. You can win or lose and still be part of it. It's okay. It's. It's great. And so it's. It provides a number of different aspects about being part of community, but also competition.

Yeah.

Which is just. It's pretty awesome. We love it.

It's part of life, right?

Yeah, you know, totally. Yeah.

Now I want to talk about the actual journey because I think the listeners and viewers are going to be going, okay, what was it like? Was it smooth sailing? So we're starting in Coffs Harbour, so New South Wales over in Aussie. So talk about. Let's talk about the launch day or the day leading up to it. How are you feeling? What was the equipment like? You know, what were you thinking with the weather?

How's it all unfolding? Well, look, it was amazing. We were totally broke the whole time. Right. So that was something that people think. You go on a big campaign, surely they've got 50 grand, they can just splash around. Like. We were trying to figure out what we were going to eat and my wife to be Lisa, was with me there and we were like, far out. We should go out for a really nice flash dinner. We couldn't afford it, like, so we were just trying to figure out what we're going to do. And then it was logistics, like, well, how do we get from the apartment we were borrowing from a friend down to where the boat was in the marina? And then you think there's going to be like 80 or 100 people there? No, there was no one at all. And so we had friends come and help us, but they all had to go back to work. And so Lisa and I went down to the boat and the people that were seeing us off were five media cameras. So you had the abc, a couple of others from New Zealand had come over to watch us, watch us go. And then Lisa and I went and borrowed a supermarket trolley from the local Woolworths to fill it all up. And we filled it up with a whole lot of stuff and then we wheeled it down over the bumpy, you know, the bumpy wharf and loaded the boat up and then it was, okay, well, the time's right. Call my weatherman and step into the boat and start rowing. And I remember I just sort of put my foot in the boat and turned around and started crying and gave Lisa a cuddle. And I was like, man, this is pretty full on.

What did those tears mean? May I just jump in there?

Yeah, sure.

Why did those tears come at that point?

I think it had Just been. I think it was okay. It's all real far out. It's actually happening. You're about to try and row the Tasman. Talking about it is very different to that step to doing it, where you start rowing and you're on your way. Yeah, it's very risky, too. There's a little bit of that. Just stress and emotion bubbling to the surface. And I guess I adore my wife and everything she'd done to that point to 100% support me get there. And I think I was a bit overwhelmed as well. I sort of. I suppose I thought there'd be heaps of other people there. It was just Lisa and the cameras and this was it. It was all ready. So we just got on with it.

Yeah, it was emotional, but step on the boat and then you untie the knots and then you start rowing and the cameras are watching you and, you know, asking how you feel. You're like, oh, you know, scary and intimidating, but it's. We're on our way, so we're pretty excited.

Unreal. And so as you're heading out there, is there a support boat close by in terms of if you do your 15 hours when you're resting, or do you stay on that boat the entire time?

There's no support boat at all. It's just me. Yep. So I just leave. So I was rowing out of Coffs Harbour and there was a media boat which followed me out, and then it just left. And so then it was just me. And we had beautiful weather. So it was a westerly. I think it was westerly. So it was blowing me from Australia towards New Zealand. So perfect. So I was hooning, I was going really fast. And the first four days are easily the most dangerous because you've got a whole lot of shipping that goes up and down the East Australian coast. And so you want to avoid all the trawlers and everything like that. And so a lot of trawlers are, you know, aren't that safety conscious. And so they just kind of just go to weapon. Yep. They're just going. They just go to sleep and trawl. And so I just had to row for four days. So I was quite nervous about the first four days because they were full on.

Wow. And so those first four days, like, so sleeping, like. Let's go to that. It gets dark.

Yeah. What do you do on the first three. Our first two nights, because it was such good conditions, I rode. So I rode maybe the first day, maybe 20 hours, and then had about two and a half hours off at night. And then I went anchor.

When you do that.

No. You just keep going. Yeah, because the wind was perfect. So we just kept going. And then end of day two, I realized, far out, I'm getting quite fatigued. And so day three, night, I had to sleep. And then day four, I wanted to get off.

You'd had enough.

I'd had enough, yeah. Day four, the novelty had worn off. The day four was horrific. So it was. I had made huge progress, which was awesome, and I kind of got to where I needed to be. But the realities of the whole situation were, this is shit. This is really hard. My hands are bleeding, my backside's bleeding. This is like, this is me for an unquantifiable amount of time. And, you know, now I'm doing it. The. I suppose the notion of rowing the Tasman sounds wonderful in some ways, you know, beautiful. But it was just hard rowing in an awful scenario.

So you're about to give up. It's like, I've had enough. Your mind is saying, we're done. But you obviously, we know the end of the story. You get there. So what changed? What did you say to yourself? How did you overcome that moment of, hey, I've had enough?

Well, it got so bad that I was gonna set the boat on fire. So I was ready. I had a Bunsen burner, a life raft, and I sat there and I go, right, I don't want to do this. So I could set the boat on fire, let the life raft go, and still tell a good story, right? What's going on? Great story, because I was in a huge amount of debt, too. So I was like, sh. How am I going to get out of this? There was a lot of probably unhealthy and risk introducing pressure I had on me to get it done. So I was like, right, maybe I could do that. And we'll see how we go. So I was sitting there going far, right, well, are you actually going to set on fire? And I'd written a whole lot of names on the boat of the people who had given me money and who had supported me and helped. So there's about 150 names of people who had given me 10 bucks or 2,000 bucks. It didn't really matter. It's just everyone who had helped. And I sat back and went, okay, you're the only person on the Tasman Sea right now that's been given the opportunity to do this. And I was like, okay, well, that makes me feel cool. That makes me feel good. You're the only person who has the opportunity to be the first in the world to do this. And so maybe this is your life's work. Maybe this is it. Maybe this is the chance you have, and this is your moment. And so I looked at that, what I digested to be pressure, and learned that that was pressure and that was stress, and then flicked around somehow to gratitude. And I was like, actually. And all these people believe that you can do it. And so what's the alternative to being in this seat right now? And the alternative is you're back on shore and you are nothing and you haven't achieved and you haven't done this and all sorts of different things. Your dad did it. You couldn't. You told people you'd be able to achieve something and you couldn't. You had your time in the arena and you didn't step up. So there was hard pressure as well as gratitude going, well, all these people believe in me. And so was that moment of flipping pressure around to see pressure as privilege, which was a wonderful moment and changed my whole. I guess changed my whole life, I would say, from that point of just going, actually, when things are hard, there's always an alternative. That's. That's. You're not. You're not in that seat. And. And if you ask yourself that question, that if you of. Do you want to be in this seat or not, and you can't answer it, it's a good reason to get out of it. Right. But for me, I realized I want to be in this seat. Get back on the oars. Right. So that was kind of it.

That's amazing. I love what you said there about pressure is a privilege.

Yeah.

I think most of us look at pressure and be like, God, it's a pain. It's horrible. Let's run away from it. It. But as soon as you put a label and go, actually, it's a privilege. I'm only doing this because, you know, people helped me to get here. My dad inspired me, and, geez, I'm privileged to be on this bloody boat. That's really cool. That's a real mindset shift.

Yes. Yeah.

And so you shift your beliefs about it, which shifts your thoughts and then your behavior, of course.

Yeah.

So you're still bleeding, but now something has shifted. So you're shifted on. What are the possibilities here? What's the story that I can write?

Yes.

And you get after it.

Yeah, absolutely. And it didn't change how hard it was. It didn't stop me from crying every third day because it was so hard and I was wrecked and it didn't stop the fear or the anxiety, but it did change that. I wanted to be there. I still wanted to be there and I still wanted to go through that pain. So the win was going to be better.

I love it.

And it felt better and it really helped me through that. So there were still moments and then it was more about, okay, you acknowledge that you do want this enough, so that's good. So let's tick that box. So we're doing it. So how are we going to get through the hard now and what are the steps we're going to put in place to get through the hard stuff? And that was the learning. And I think a lifetime of learning and I'm still learning. How do you get through the hard? How do you stay focused? How do you put the right skills and communication strategies in place so when things are hard, you're not hurting people around you and all those sorts of things. So I think that's the, the life journey you go on. And the Tasman was just learning how to battle through each hour, each half hour of rowing and.

Just trying to get across that awful piece of little ocean.

Yeah, it's a pretty treacherous piece of ocean.

Yeah.

I want to talk about those lessons in a minute, but you mentioned the word fear. What were some of those fears that came up when you're out there by yourself?

It's interesting. I'm very comfortable in the water and on the water, so there's not many scenarios where I would panic in an on sea scenario. I don't mind big sea, I don't mind lots of wind. I've raced surfboats and been in the biggest PR surf in 24 foot boats, surfing down them and love it. There's a big part of me that loves it. So I was never fearful that the water was going to get me, for an example.

And I was never fearful that I had not put things in place to keep myself alive. And even though it seems very risky riding the Tasman, there are so many things you can put in place. That boat was never going to sink.

And I was never really going to get eaten by anything or maybe something. You're just never quite sure. So I was never really fearful. Even. There was some moments where I was trapped upside down, where the boat got flipped and I couldn't get the boat back up again, where I was never worried about if I was going to die. I was more worried about how I was going to get myself out of the situation. So very. I'M a very practical person when it comes to dealing with moments. Probably overly practical. My wife would definitely say I'm far too practical about just getting straight to the point and moving on with things. So I don't think I was ever really scared. I was definitely emotionally unstable, but not scared as such.

It's incredible. Did I read at one point you encountered a whale? What was that all about?

Yeah, and it sounds like bullshit, so I hate telling the story because it is so bizarre, but so look, you don't look where you're going when you're rowing. And not that it's like a highway where you're avoiding whales, but I was just rowing along and.

I watched this pair float past me. Which one was so far out. I'm either, you know, I'm either delusional or that's actually a floating pair. And this little pear floated past and then I hit something hard. And then I was like, well, yeah, it's obviously not New Zealand. And then the boat got pushed and then what looked like a combivan sized gray head pushed the boat to the left and popped out of the water. And I just said every bad word to the sun. And then I was just kind of going, what is it? Like, is it a container? What is it? And then it moved and swam off. And then I was just going, this is really bad. It's gonna like. It's obviously had a nudge. It might have another nudge. And so I held on. There was a steel wire the length of the boat, so I held onto that, thinking it was kind of going to kick, flick me with its tail or something and this was going to be the end. And then nothing happened. And it swam away. And then I was like, right. And I just rode as hard and fast as I could in the wrong direction for like two hours. So it was. That was it really. And I was just like, no one will ever believe this, that this has happened. And so it was pretty cool. Pretty, pretty wicked. And yeah, and I just wish, like, I only had this little Sony camera. I didn't have any GoPros or anything like that. I was like, in hindsight, Sean sits there and goes, you just should have stopped and filmed this thing. But I was just like, stay alive, Sean. Just row, mate. Just get out of there.

Unreal.

Pretty special.

Yeah. The instincts kick in at that point.

Yeah.

Wow. I think you're probably one of the few people on the planet that that's happened.

Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

And that was the one and only time it did.

Yeah. One at a time, we heard. I heard lots of whales. So in a special moment, I talk about. And when it was completely flat one night, and when it was completely flat, I'd open up the top hatch so I could lie in bed and I could look up and I could see the best Milky Way you'd ever see, ever. And somehow the hull of the boat would echo the whales, so when they were talking, you'd hear it. And so I was lying there like I was in a meditation wonderland, really, of this whale noises and then the stars. And I was like, well, this is. This is a magic moment. And in hindsight, you go, you'll never get that again, Sean. So it was pretty special.

A lot to be grateful for.

Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

It's an unreal. And obviously there were some cam moments, so there have been beautiful sunrises and sunsets, lots of special things. But then the grind, like, every day you were grinding.

Yeah.

Reminds me a little bit of, say, Roald Amundsen, so wanted to get to the South Pole before anyone else, and he said, as men, we're going to do a 15 mile march every day. Good weather, bad weather, I don't care, we're moving. Yeah. Did you have a similar approach in terms of every day? I just need to be grinding.

Yeah, definitely. I think the only thing you've got that there is like, just like, commitment to routine. That's it. It's what keeps you in control, it's what gives you moments to celebrate. It's the only thing you've got. So you can control that routine and you control the systems around that routine. You can't control the weather, you can't control how much progress you're gonna make each day, but you can control those patterns and those routines. And so when the going's good, you'll dominate. When the going's bad, you'll hold on. And if you celebrate the success of the implementation of that routine, then you start feeling good and you start feeling satisfied and you feel like you're making momentum. Even though you might have gone back 70Ks, but you will still feel that there's a moment to celebrate. And basically the idea is that momentum builds motivation, right? And so if you've got. If you've got little moments to celebrate, which could be the completion of that routine or even a component of that routine. Well, it helps mindset and this helps you sort of move in the right direction continuously.

To me, this is so crucial. In the last. I got back about a week ago, in the last week, I've lost two friends to suicide in Christchurch. Yeah, it's been pretty rough week. And I've. I do a lot of thinking and contemplating and asking why and, like, how did I not pick things up? And I just think that the mental skills that we need to develop as humans, they're vast and there's an array of skills, but often I think it's going through really tough things and getting out the other side that we build some of these skills that sometimes we can't learn them in a book, sometimes we can't learn them because someone told them to us. We actually need to go and do the hard things. What kind of skills do you feel that were really critical skills that you built out on the water that have helped you in some of the darker or tougher times in your life?

I think.

I think I had those skills before I got onto the boat. Was the one. One thing on the water, I learned to break down hard into very small components. So I learned that celebrating small moments was very, very important and not being too hard on yourself was really important. So if I broke down a day, there was some hard days where I couldn't sit up. I was lying in my cabin and I was like, I can't sit up. This is. I'm not gonna do it. I've had enough. And it was raining outside, our feet were wet, and you're sitting there just going, I can't. How am I gonna get there? And so I'd convinced myself that all I needed to do for that whole day is sit up. So I'd sit up and you'd be like, okay, well, that was good, right? And that was a small moment. And it was, you know, momentum builds motivation type of thing. So I sat up, celebrated that. Then I was like, right, all you need, Sean, is eat some porridge, right? That's all you need to do. So. And that might be too hard. So it'd be like, just get your bowl out, mate. And then so you break it down into these tiny, tiny little steps. And what I found is sooner or later, after I'd combined a thousand tiny steps, I'd been rowing for 15 hours. So it was sometimes cognitively huge tasks. Just in the cognitive load of a huge task makes it incredibly unmotivating to start, right? But the key is to start and actually, you don't need to kind of have all the answers. You don't need to know how it's going to happen or how you'll win at the very end, but you do need to start if you're going to have to, if you, if you're going to want to try, if you're going to want to get there. And so the rowing for me taught me that I just needed to put one foot in front of the other and that the rest would start taking care of itself as soon as I did that. It wouldn't always be easy, but you just got to keep going and keep going. Now, where I learned to keep going and keep going, I'm not sure, but I think I've probably got my parents to thank for that and my stepparents and everyone that was involved in building me. And also my ability to keep listening to lots and lots of different people and reflecting up to that point was helpful. And I've got eight and ten year old boys as well. And I think about this a lot is how am I being the best parent to teach them resilience and my staff as well, how am I teaching them resilience all the time? And it's a very hard question to answer and I don't have all the answers to it at all. But it's a tricky one.

I agree. And I've got a wee eight year old boy as well and I'd love to just explore with you what some of your personal insights are around how do we build resilience? Because I'm probably a little bit guilty as a dad of being a bit soft and I had a friend who, he has this company called a Spartan and they run the Death race.

Spartan Death Race, yes. Cool.

So unbelievable. And he says, james, you need to have your kid lifting heavy weights and going for long walks. You need to put them up a hill with a backpack on and not let them stop, let them cry, but keep them, keep them moving. He says, you need to build resilience. God, I find that a bit tough. I like to be gentle, but I understand there's going to be tough times when I'm not there for Finn when he's older. How do you go about building resilience in a safe and empowering way for your kids?

I'll tell you when they're 30.

We've got to have a chat again.

Exactly. I don't.

I think I'm very soft as a parent in some ways compared to sort of how I was raised and the different scenarios I was faced with growing up. My kids are gonna be quite different to me. A lot of the things that happened to me weren't that nice. And so that's something I think some of the most resilient and amazing People come out of not very nice scenarios. And as parents trying to do the best possible job, sometimes we potentially just spoon feed our kids too many opportunities. And so what I try to do is open the door, but they have to do it themselves and they have to get and chase themselves. Remember, a good sort of friend and mentor of mine is like, you'll never make your kid into an all black. You'll never make your kid into a, an Olympic ride. They've got to want to do it. They've got to want to. And you can open the doors for them, but they've got to want to do it. And if they fail, you just got to tell them that they've failed and tell them to get hungry about why they failed and learn why they failed. And then I suppose they've just got to guide them on that path. But it's something I don't have all the answers to except for if they can get themselves out of trouble and if they can learn to understand why they got into trouble or why they didn't quite achieve what they wanted to do rather than making excuses for them, I think that helps. And so making sure they are owning the outcomes which they're part of driving is pretty important. So as parents, Lisa and I, if they are failing different things at school, we get them to front into it and make a plan about how they're going to fix it. We try not to face into the hard conversations they might have to have if they're being bullied at school or if they don't get on with the teacher. We make sure that they go and talk to the teacher about what they don't like about what's happening.

That's amazing.

So it's just making them really own the situation they're in and their ability to control outcomes. And we hope that that helps.

I'm sure it will. Yeah. What I like about that is some people say, look, you've got to create difficult moments for your kids so they build resilience. My thing is there's going to be enough difficult moments thrown at them with this world as it is, that we don't need to go out of our way to create difficult challenges for them to overcome. It sounds like you take a similar approach.

Yeah, I think so. And it's how you. Let me give you an example. Right. So a Tasman example. So when I was in the middle of the Tasman, I flipped upside down and lost my oars.

I had eight sets of oars, but lost two oars, lost a whole lot of different stuff. The boat flipped back up again and it was a chaotic night, just disastrous with 60 knot winds. It was awful. So was the sea state had calmed down. I was sitting back on deck, it was 11 o' clock in the morning. The sun was back out, the world had changed again. And then I lost my emotions because it was just a great chaotic 24 hours. And I rang my dad and I rang dad on the satellite phone and I said, dad, you know, dad, you know, this is awful. This is so bad. This is terrible. You know, I hate it, I hate it. And I was crying and sobbing, this is terrible. And he goes fuck up. And I was like, oh. And he goes just fuck up. And I was like oh, okay. And he goes look around you. And I was like okay. And he goes have you got your oars? And I said yes. And he goes have you got your seat? And I said yes. And he goes well, what the fuck are you doing talking to me? And hung up. Tough love, right? Right. And so he had. So to me that was quite interesting for a number of reasons. One, he had taught sea survival for the Navy for 30 years. So he knew the message that I needed right then and then. And that takes 30 years of training sail. Right. You need to know when someone needs a kick up the backside. Two, I think of my 8 year old and 10 year old lost at sea after me and I just go, oh, how could you say that?

You know.

But best thing I could have heard right there and then. And I believe it would have been very, very hard for him to say that. But perfect thing he knew the best thing for me was to get that hard message. And so delivering hard messages is never nice. Right. It doesn't feel good for you as a parent, doesn't feel good for the kids. But we just got to deliver hard messages sometimes and that was one that would ultimately help me. And I think, I suppose it's just being comfortable with giving those home truths and hard messages more often.

God, that's so good to hear. I mean it's so confronting to hear.

Yeah.

And I'm the same. I couldn't imagine ever send it to Finn, but I never know what he's going to get into in the future. And I might need to to be that.

That's right.

But that's interesting. Like when you look at, you're in a dark space, dad have had enough of an emotional kind of wreck at that point. What we get into is a pattern of thinking and it's like a loop. And the only way to move forward is to break the pattern. And often the only way to break the pattern I find for me anyways, like abruptness or a sudden change by him saying fuck up. That's like a big sudden change, big time.

Yeah, but totally accurate. Right. And I kind of think like. Like something because I reflect on that moment lots. I don't think. I'm not sure I'd ever have the same approach, but I reflect on it lots. And I think, how would I want my kids to exist and behave if we didn't exist anymore? What sort of people do I want them to be? And how do I want them to conduct themselves and control their lives and control their outcomes? And I don't want them thinking I'm there for them for all these different things. I want them to be drivers. I want them to be, you know, full of fight for their own outcomes and their ability to deal with that. And so we're only going to teach that by letting them fall on their faces and win and get back up and sort of climb that horrible ladder, which is. Which is getting out of a problem, finding a solution and bouncing back. And so we've got to teach them that. And if we cover for them the whole time, they're never going to get there.

100.

So we've just got to learn how to do that. And it's our fault if we don't teach them that.

Right.

So it's a hard thing to figure out.

It's really refreshing again to hear you say that because I work with a lot of different corporates and I often hear, oh, this generation coming in. God, they've got no resilience. God, they want everything on a plate. And I'm like, well, it's a parenting problem. It was their parents. And it's a very big generalization because I feel that there's a lot of this generation that are amazing that are coming into it.

Absolutely large portion of them.

So I go back to what you're saying and going, God, if all of our parenting skills are operating around, how do we let them fail? How do we equip them to make decisions, to be more independent quicker? We're not going to have people coming into the workforce that expect everything on a plate, that start crying at the drop of one critical comment. We need to have these kids that have the resilience, that operate in the real world. And the only way to do it is to be upfront and direct. Loving, of course, and caring.

Yes.

But being direct with.

Yep, absolutely. I think my rules is never there's never a reason to not be kind in the delivery of a message. But age, bad news never ages well. Right. And so you've just got to deliver it and get it across to them. And I think my oldest team members sort of mid-50s, my youngest is very early 20s. Right. And they have a different, they need a different style. They have different things going on in the world. They've grown up through different. Different things. And so delivering the messages in slightly different ways is more effective management style. However.

As I said, the bad news never ages well. So you just gotta get it up front, tell them where they're missing or what they're missing, and then get on with it. But, yeah, it's not easy.

I love it. I agree. It's not easy at all. It's interesting. Dr. Brene Brown, who's done a lot of work on leadership and emotions, her one statement was around communication. Clear is kind.

Yes.

Just be clear.

Yeah.

And sometimes clear is like unwelcome. Person doesn't want to hear it. It's maybe not what they thought they would hear from you, but be clear. And that's kind.

Yes.

And you don't need to be blunt with your messaging and just be clear.

Yeah, absolutely. And that's kind of what we try and do and just communicate openly and get it done. And I will be the first to say I have stuffed it up thousands of times. Right. And it's never perfect, but I think that that's, you know, I think the big problem to solve is resilience. How do we continue to teach resil and how do we exemplify that as well? By being resilient ourselves as make sure we behave in the right way too, as leaders, when we're being given feedback too. That's probably the hardest part of the equation, 100%.

And I want to talk a little bit about life, professional life after your big adventure, but we're halfway across the Tasman. You've capsized. You're now back up. You've had the call from dad, and a wise word from dad, there would have been a fair bit of resilience required at that halfway point. So I feel like as we've crossed a Tasman with you over this last half an hour or so, you've given us these incredible lessons and distinctions. So what was that last half like and how did you end up finishing?

The last half was wonderful in that it felt like I could do it. So I'd gotten over the hurdle. However, it was certainly not done. And so I got Kind of the Tasman was teasing me at this point point, like thinking I was going to make it really quickly and then pushing me back for days and days. So out of the 54 days, I ended up going backwards 36. And so it was a big challenge in that regard. And going back to the routine stuff, it was really important just to keep focusing on the routine because I never knew when I was going to be going forwards one day or going to be pushed backwards. The other thing we all like to focus on is that exact destination. It's. And it's nice to think we've got control about where we're going to land or where we're going to end up. And we thought, well, I was aiming for Taranaki the entire time and missed it by 760 kilometres, right. And there's nothing worse than almost missing a country. And it was aiming for this. But you've only got so much control about that exact point. And so for a point of time, we're heading towards the middle of the South Island, a place called Greymouth. And then it was Wellington, then it was Taranaki, then it was Raglan, and then it was, holy shit, I'm going to miss New Zealand. And. And so I was trying to aim for all these different ports all the time. So it was totally about this. We were never sure where I was going to land. And so that's really unmotivating, right, because you're just going far out. Where am I going to go the last. And so just getting back to the point. So, look, it was, unfortunately, it was just about boring routine. It was just. Don't. It doesn't matter. Forget about the destination, forget about what you need to do every single day to get there, and focusing on that and trying to enjoy those days as much as I could. And so that was the hard bit because it was this just graft of. You never know when you're going to finish and you might be in the same spot for seven days and had a few things happen. Like, my water maker broke down, my rudder broke. Things were breaking all over the place and they would take hours to. To put back together in. My water maker, for an example, was I'd take that apart into 80 different components and then put it back together and I was back in the same place I was four days earlier. And so there's these little challenges which you could either focus on those and dwell on those as if they were bad things that had occurred, or they were just part of the process. And so making sure I Was focusing on them just being part of the journey as opposed to here I was here four days ago. Were quite important that those challenges didn't overwhelm me. They didn't overcome the journey or didn't sort of occupy too much of my mind that they became the focus of negativity the entire time. They were just things that had happened. Kind of like getting an injury in rugby or whatever it might be. They're just things. You work through them, stay focused on the outcome at the very end in your daily routine and then you'll get there.

Great advice. It's interesting as you're sharing that I think of your perception shapes your reality. And so I could have seen the water filter maker breaking and for me that could have been the end. Okay, I've had enough. Like, it's over. But for you it's like, oh, it's part of the process. Let's get it fixed. Oh, now I'm back. Four days worth of rowing. Go, start again. That's a perception thing. And the ability for you to be aware under pressure, under extreme fatigue, I imagine.

Yeah.

To be able to manage that, it's a great mental skill.

Yeah. I don't know if I was perfect. It was just certainly there's a few words coming out at the time and profanities and it was never great. Like all these things, in hindsight, you talk about them as, oh, you know, I was really happy to be back in the same place I was four days earlier. But no, it was total shit sandwich. Like, it was awful. And again, it was just going right, okay, well look, it's. This is my journey. This is cool. This is. It's not permanent. It's a temporary moment. Just get back on the tools and keep rowing and it will be okay. And for the last four days of the trip, I was going 12 miles north for every half miles making towards New Zealand because of this big southerly storm. Wow. My weatherman at the time, Roger Badham, who is. His nickname's Clouds and he's the weatherman for team New Zealand. Total legend, awesome guy. And so Clouds would text me the coordinates of where I needed to row to to take advantage of the weather every day. And so he text me these coordinates, but they weren't coordinates. It was just. Lol. Lol. I've booked my hotel and dinner rail. We'll see you in Fiji. Never going to make it. Ha ha, ha ha ha. And I text them back, cheers, asshole. You know, and. And then fortunately the weather moved slightly Australia and I got my Final little run in, which got me close enough to New Zealand that I could finally get there. So it was always the whole. The whole trip, there was. It was challenging. There was always a spanner being thrown in the works. Whether it was rowing into a whale, being flipped upside down, being blown backwards, whatever it was, it was never. There wasn't a day where I kind of sat back and went, oh, that went perfectly. You know, that was smooth. That was wonderful. So, no, it was a great challenge.

Sounds a bit like life. It's hard to look at any day and be. Everything was perfect today. It's like, often there's blemishes and challenges and moments. And it's interesting, the thing that you've said a couple of times that I think is really important to highlight. You knew where your destination was, which was New Zealand. And for many people thinking right now, that could be, they want to become an Olympian, they want to get a new job, they want to make a billion dollars, whatever it might be. That's the destination. You never forgot about the destination, but you stopped obsessing over it, and instead you focus simply on, where am I now? What's the next routine? That's saying. Scott O', Neil, he was used to be the CEO for the 76ers and Madison Square Garden. He wrote a book called be where your feet are. And it's like, where are they right now? Cool. What I got to do right now. Cool. You're not thinking too far in the future. You're not thinking anywhere behind. It's like, where am I right now? Cool. I got to fix the watercolor. I got to get back on the sticks and get going. So I love that you demonstrate that. And you had to keep going back to the basics.

Yes. Yeah.

Unreal.

And I've been really lucky since doing that trip. I've worked for billionaires. I've met some of the richest people around the world and had some great opportunities. And a lot of those people are just people that are like that, you know? Right. How are we going to fix this? How are we going to get this done? Doesn't matter. The challenge that they're being faced with, it's right, how do we practically work through this? And so I think that's a great lesson. It is. That be where your feet are is. I do like that saying. Good.

It's simple and relatable. Right. You know?

Yeah.

And now you get your feet back on home ground. You know, you got across the Tasman. How long did it take you and who was there? To greet you.

Cool. So look, the last, the last four days was, was gnarly. That big southerly storm was there and I was rowing for 24 hours a day. I couldn't stop rowing. I was taking codeine because my backside was so raw and I just had to keep rowing, keep rowing. So I was taking codeine, eating porridge just to keep going and, and so, and it was because we were going to miss and so it was pretty gnarly and I couldn't get my head around missing and having to row for another week back down the other side and would have been full on. So I was going hard towards 90 Mile Beach. It was pretty exciting and the family was chasing me up the coast the whole time. And the wonderful thing was just how many people came from all over New Zealand and.

Just it's a special, special time for me just thinking about all those awesome people. I was rowing and the first time I saw land was the day I landed. So I saw land and then three hours later I was stand, I was so pretty gnarly. And so I was rowing and rowing in what no one had really kind of let me know was about 8 foot of surf on 90 Mile Beach. So it was big seas and 8 foots, big, big, big waves and 90 miles pretty, pretty full on. And so I was very clear I couldn't row onto the beach or if I was going to do that I was going to really risk hurting myself. So I thought there's no point in killing myself in the last hundred meters. And so got the boat already.

Took the big rudder off, tied everything down, hit everything that was important on the boat that I needed to look after and then got my speedos on and then started rowing with the view that I was going to jump off as soon as I rode onto a wave. And so I rode and rode hard onto a wave, caught the wave and then jumped off the boat and started swimming in and then the boat went this way and then I went in the other direction. And the funniest part was there was 400 people on the beach and a couple of helicopters and a whole lot of media and they all went to the boat which was classic. And so this like skinny little guy started swimming in up here by myself, holding up a flag going oh look, come on, I've just rode the Tasman. And then they were all with the boat and then a couple of them saw me and they all ran up and it was wonderful. My sort of my wife to be was there and my brother and my mum and A whole lot of other people was wicked. And a really interesting part about it though was I'd done a media deal where I was actually only allowed on the beach for six minutes. And so it was just. All I wanted to say to all these people was, I'm gonna go get three kegs and we're gonna come back to my place and I'm just gonna say thank you and you can have a great party and we can celebrate. But I wasn't allowed to. Cause there was exclusive interviews and things which. Which they had supported me early on and they were totally entitled to. So it was wonderful. There was a little part of me that when dad landed on Marcus BEACH Back in 1977, it was just him. He crash landed by himself on this little remote beach. And I'm hugely envious of that because it would have been an amazing thing to crash land on a beach by yourself and just sit there, have that moment yourself to go, wow, you did it. And I never had that moment, which is okay. Which is totally fine. I had a different moment, but always envious of dad. And he had that time just to go row the teacher Tasman.

And may I ask, was your dad around to witness?

Yeah, he was around. He was alive. He felt very strongly. He was always worried that I was wearing the Tasman because he rode the Tasman. And so he had. Which is a. I never worried. That wasn't really the reason. I guess he gave me the idea. But he was worried that him being there would shadow my trip. And so he was always very. I couldn't have cared if he was there. It would have been nice for him to be there. We had a. We had quite a distant relationship growing up. So my parents divorced. Divorced when I was 6. And then I lived with my mum and my brother lived with my dad. And so we never had a bad relationship. We just grew up apart. And so we were never very close. So he felt no need to be there, I felt no need to have him there. He talked to me about it and he said, do you want me there? And I'm like, no, it doesn't phase me. And yeah, he just would have put it down to. I was probably a bit expensive as well, you know, he's a funny bloke. And so no, he wasn't there. And. Which he may have regretted, I don't know. But that was just his decision.

He played his role, though, halfway through when you really needed him to say.

What he said, yeah, absolutely. And another thing he did as well, when he. When I First told him I was writing the Tasman. He wanted to be very clear that this was because it was what I wanted to do. And I sent him this email saying, I'm going to write the Tasman. And this was about eight months into me trying to raise money and things. And he goes, wow, well, you've 100% got my total support and I'm really proud of you. Well done. But I'll see you at the start line and I won't have anything to do with the campaign up until that point. And I was like, oh, far. I was kind of hoping for 30 grand, you know, and. And he was like, look, Sean, so much has changed in terms of technology and everything, and also you have to give up absolutely everything to want this enough that you have to get yourself there. Getting to the start line is the hardest bit. So if you haven't given up absolutely everything and really asked yourself the question, how much do you want it? You're not going to have what it takes to get across. And so that was another just amazing little gift from him that, you know, he might not have been there that much when I was growing up, but these little nuggets, just amazing insights.

Thank you for sharing that. It's really interesting. Sarah. I think your dad would make an incredible coach.

Coach.

There's a coach out of the UK who worked a lot with David Beckham, mental skills coach, and he shared something with me that has really sat with me and has helped me. And I used it about two years ago at a young guy come saying, look, I want to be an all black, and he was playing in provincial rugby, and I said, okay, how badly do you want it? That was the first question he said, more than anything. I said, great. And then this next question, question was, how much are you willing to suffer to get there? That's exactly what your dad asked you. And this mental skills coach for David Beckham said it's the most powerful question you can ask someone because suffering is horrible and none of us want to suffer and we want it easy, but actually, big things, big, hard things require a lot of suffering. So he probably did you a huge favor.

Yeah, hugely. And that's exactly it. It's like everyone wants something, right? But it's really that, what sort of journey are you willing to go through? And, yeah, that's it. Right? And it wasn't a fun journey. It was two years of having no money, everyone thinking you're a Muppet, right. And getting criticism from all over the place, and then trying to build a boat when everyone else is at university trying to finish their degree and their parents are telling them, oh, you're doing a great job, you know, go start a PwC or whatever it is, and you've got your strange mate building a boat to row the Tasman. And so it's a funny thing. And so, yeah, it's all about. About surviving these journeys, right, to get to the destination and what you're willing to do to get through that. And most of the world isn't willing to do that much or endure that much discomfort. That's what the Tasman is. It's just a whole lot of discomfort.

Stood you in great stead because I'd love to talk a little bit and just shine a light on what you've done. Post that. And your career is just mind blowing in terms of what you've done professionally. So over the last, say, 10 or 15 years, what's been happening in your professional world?

And after the trip, I wrote a book and that was a great fun little thing to do and. Cause I failed fifth, sixth and seventh form English, it was even more fulfilling. Well done. Yeah, thank you. I went and lived in the UK for a couple of years with my wife and did a whole lot of sort of different things and then came back to New Zealand and got given an opportunity to work for a company called Transaction Services in New Zealand. So that was an amazing New Zealand company that was on this rocket, rocket ship trajectory with a great leader, a man called Murray Bolton, who had just had a massive vision for this business. So I jumped in there just as a salesperson and then just basically took every single opportunity I possibly could, worked longer hours than I should and, well, not should work longer hours as I should have and I should have worked harder and for longer and again just grafted and did that for six or seven years and was exposed to so many wonderful opportunities through that whole business. And one of the CEOs of that business, a man called Craig Marshall, basically gave me an opportunity to go and lead that company launching into the United States. Don't know what he saw in me, but I'll always be grateful for him for that. And so I had a newborn and I went home and said, lisa, we're moving to California. I'm gonna be the head of growth for this company and we'll be the first people there. And so we move to the States and started knocking on doors there. Literally we had to pretend we were way bigger than we were. That business was extraordinarily successful and so lucky we had the financial backing for them to go there. I didn't have any ownership in that company, but I just knew that I just needed to be a sponge. And to go to America to be a sponge and to try as hard as I could was just a kickass opportunity. And so we went. And credit to my wife, that was really scary for her.

Her.

She's a brilliant physiotherapist and I had her as a team member supporting me to do that too. So I was pretty lucky that she was willing to do that. And so we just landed in Manila Avenue in Oakland, California, and with no friends and no furniture for like five months, and we thought we're getting paid really well, but so was everyone in San Francisco. So we ended up having, like, nothing. And I was disappearing for a week at a time myself. And so that was. That was how I ended up getting into technology and payment systems, which is really weird how you move from Ocean Row to payments, but ultimately, yeah, that's sort of where I land. And that's where I started.

Incredible. And then obviously you came back to New Zealand with a lot of new skills, probably a big network as well.

Yeah, yeah. So from transaction services, I sort of cut my teeth. That was my first proper job. I'd finished a degree, which took me eight years from when I first started in business. Business. And I'd figured out that, hey, actually, I love working for someone, but I want to lead my own business. I want to create something and I want to build my own thing. And I really kind of did the maths as well and figured out that the fastest path to wealth is really through ownership. You never really can achieve the same trajectory working for someone else as you could yourself. And so. So I quit, which was quite surprising for them, I think. And I felt a whole lot of guilt because it was a company that looked after me really well. But I saw an opportunity in the buy now, pay later sector with a company that was emerging in New York. And I thought, actually, I've got the skills and I know the people that I can launch that in New Zealand and own the New Zealand market if I go fast and hard enough. And so I quit my $250,000 a year, big US dollar a year.

It's a big risk.

Yeah. And with. With another newborn, we had two kids, pretty big mortgage in Auckland and said thank you, and we're moving home. And so moved home and started a company called Genoa Pay, which was a buy now, pay later business, and raised some venture capital, which I didn't really know what that was back in 2015. And so put a business plan together, spent pretty much all of our savings and floating mortgage on software engineers building a product that didn't actually work in the end that we threw everywhere and went and spoke to the team at Icehouse Ventures who backed me and gave me a 50 grand check to keep going and started building this new startup and into the startup world.

Amazing. And for those that are listening, that also. The word venture capital. What does that mean?

Yeah, absolutely. So venture capital is fundamentally.

A group of people or investors who look for companies who are either just starting or at certain stages in their journey and they provide that company with capital. And basically the thesis is that the amount, the money that they give to that company gives them a percentage of shares in that company and then they hope that they're going to get 10 times, 20 times their money back. So that company they're investing in will turn into a huge success story. And they invest early and they invest in high risk businesses. So venture capital, basically, basically you could call it company gambling a little bit, which they wouldn't really appreciate, but it's all, a lot of it's private, private investment into ideas, really. And so companies like Rocket Lab in New Zealand took on venture capital early on. And so sometimes you can have just an idea and you'll go see a venture capital fund and say, Well, I need $100,000 to explore this idea. And so the venture capital funds will back you and take a percentage of your company and you use their money to invest in the idea. You don't just take that money off the table. And so for me, I had this business called Genoa Pay and I thought, far out, this is going to work if we go hard and fast enough, but I need a million dollars. And so I went to the venture capital funds and raised that million dollars to go as hard as fast as I could. And at the time, I think it was one of the largest funding rounds for, for a seed company. So just an idea fundamentally in New Zealand. And we went hard.

To me, you're not afraid to fail. Like, you're like, failure. Cool. Bring it on. Like, let's run like literally head first into it.

Yeah.

What do you believe about failure?

I'll challenge you a bit on that. I'm terrified of failure. Okay. Yeah, I am. And that drives me a lot too. Like, I want to go. I'm not afraid to try, but I will. I spent a good 18 months researching that business before starting it. And even like the Tasman years of Research how to make it right. But I'm not afraid to try. Right. And I think there's kind of. There's kind of a small difference there. Like, I definitely don't want to fail and I don't like failing. I'm not a good failer, I'm a good loser, but I'm, you know, I'm a nice person, but I don't enjoy it. And so. So I think there is a slight difference there in that you. I have an anxiety to failure. Perhaps that's another way to say it, that I want to keep working really, really hard. I think failure is important in that you bounce back from it as quickly as you can and move on with it. But, yeah, certainly, I certainly don't enjoy it. It's uncomfortable. Yeah.

And how did the company end up going in terms of you got this investment, you got going, what was the outcome?

Yeah, Rock and Roll Journey, like Buy Now, Pay later exploded as a category. So we were maybe first or second to launch in New Zealand, which was really, really exciting. And we raised the money in our first board meeting. The board sat around and we're like, wow, this has been really great. But in the time since we raised the money and closed the funding round, which means you've gone out and you've asked the people to invest, people have invested in your idea, you've valued the company and you've taken their money and it's sitting in a bank account, it's ready to spend on the growth of this business and you're ready to execute on the idea which you sold to the world. And then five other competitors had launched in New Zealand at the same time. And so the first board meeting was, do we give the money back because there's five more competitors? And so that was a really sort of challenging question, is that we have a strategy, it's a differentiated strategy to the competition. We feel like we can win still. But has the dynamics of this market shifted materially enough that we probably should just back out? Ultimately, we didn't give the money back and we stuck to the strategy. It was different enough and we went hard and basically we were trying to win by now pay later for the services sector. So dentist vets here in Bearding Automotive. So Sean got on the phones and I started selling as hard as I could. And I was really lucky. I employed a great CTO guy, Damon o'. Neill. Neil. He started building technology for as cheap and as fast as he could as well. And very quickly we signed up 5,000 businesses across New Zealand in those different sectors. And we had 50,000 people join and start using the system. So that was awesome. That was a great sort of first six months and the sector started blowing up then. So really scary, really exciting. Kept going, we raised a little bit more money, kept building, kept building, launched an initial product in Australia, kept building. Then two of our big competitors, one raised 150 million, one raised 90 million and a couple of others were raising sort of 20 or 30 million bucks. And at that point I went, wow, actually, like, that's a lot of money. And there's a strategy called Blue Ocean, Red Ocean with business. And basically what that describes is you want to enter markets where there's blue ocean, which is basically. There aren't. There is not competition. You're creating something new, you're creating a category a red ocean. Would it be like trying to start a petrol start station in the central Auckland?

We're all fighting for it.

You know, there's nothing. There's nothing new or hugely interesting about it. It's just another small business. And so by now, Potato had arguably turned to a red Ocean. We were one of the leaders, which was great, but we knew we couldn't be the category king. We knew we couldn't take out the market or we didn't probably have the team or the skillset to go and raise 150 million at the time either. And so I knew we probably needed to look at exposure. And so this was four years after we'd started and so on. In terms of when you start and sell a business, it's quite a short period of time, but I kind of felt my obligation was to the shareholders. We need to get out. And we could get out because the market's hot and we could get out in a really positive way. And so we went out to raise more money, but we went out to raise more money knowing very well we were trying to sell it too. And so we went out and raised. We went out to. With that prospectus, we had four offers to buy the business. And so we basically ran a competitive process at that particular point. And we sold the company to the largest finance company in Australia, which was just awesome. And it was just a fantastic journey because they wanted us to keep going. And so they bought the company. And the way we sort of did the deal was that we would continually be incentivized to grow it to what we wanted it to be. And so we grew that company to have 1.2 million customers and 35,000 businesses, you using it. So we went from a team of 12 to a team of 80 people across Australia, New Zealand. I commuted to Melbourne every week, which was just full on. And then that group that bought us listed on the asx and so we were able to take part in learning about how all that went and be part of that listing process. So absolute killer journey, from raising 50 grand to selling the company privately to then taking part in an ASX listing was just an awesome journey to go on. And we were very lucky. And again, it was hard. There was a lot of risk there of if it hadn't have worked, we would have lost the house if, you know, and then I wouldn't have probably been able to get that great job back and all those sorts of things. And going through the acquisition process was really hard. You watch your baby being ripped apart by a big corporate. It was still growing really well, but pretty full on. So, yeah, just very grateful that things went the way they did.

And we got out and we made our investors great money. So it was again, pretty cool. Journey.

What a journey. It's huge. Yeah. And it's interesting you mentioned the word lucky. I always believe that you create your own luck and sometimes we do get some luck that comes our way, but we don't always make the most of it or double down on it. And so I think you've definitely done a lot of that creating of putting the work in, in. And the harder you work, the luckier you get.

Yeah, I think it's. It is again, like so much can be taken from my Tasman trip. And I do, I do, I am lucky that, you know, again using the word luck. But it's, I reflect on that trip about, you know, it's just, what are you willing to suffer? What routine can you stick to? What people can you put around you that help point you, point you in the right direction? And that's what I think. Right in the Tasman. You know, I just, I did need to just point the boat in the right direction and, and row it, but thankfully I knew where New Zealand was and I did have a compass to point me there. But in business it's a bit different because you've got to find those people who ultimately act as your compass that point you in the right direction because you can work incredibly hard. And.

We were fortunate to make some money, so we now are able to invest in some startups as well. And so being able to point them in the right direction the whole time really becomes the key. And I think winning in business is putting the right people around you to point you in the right direction the whole time. Because, man, you can waste a lot of time and energy on silly stuff or pointing in the wrong direction, never get there. And it's always tragic when you watch some people with amazing work ethic who just get pointed in wrong directions. And so that's what I spend a lot of time with now, going right. Where are the right people I need to talk to? Who are the leaders in the world, world that can help me Even for a 20 minute conversation, help me point in the right direction.

That's amazing. That's such good advice. I'm a big believer that success leaves clues.

Yes.

So I'm always looking at, okay, who's done something that I really want to do, but they've done it so much better than I could ever do. What have they done? How have they done it? How can I deconstruct their actions? And then if I can sit down with them and go, hey, what advice would you have? Because there's no point in reinventing the wheel. There's so many great people out there that have done amazing things.

Yes.

And we just need to look for the little breadcrumbs to leave behind.

Yeah. You're never alone, right. In any of these problems. We all like to think our problems are unique, but they never are. Right. And we think we're building a unique business and it's like, well, you're not really like. Or there'll be so many patterns that have gone through before. So I totally agree. I think we waste a lot of time and energy on worrying about these things and we convince ourselves that we're alone in this. But you just got to do a little bit of searching and there'll be a thousand articles about what you're facing into and potential paths to solve it.

100%. And talking about new business. What are you doing right now?

Oh, so I'm doing it again. So another startup again. Yeah, I love it. And so, you know, our whole organization, we're rebuilding insurance payments infrastructure. So we feel the insurance sector is a little bit behind in terms of user experiences and customer experiences. And just like a general day to day consumer business doesn't understand insurance. And I think that that's just largely due to the technical interactions that they have with it. And so we've built a business that allows insurance companies to offer customers a modern experience, whether it be from how they receive their policy, how they make a claim, how they make payments. So yeah, we really want to create the Netflix experience of insurance and kind of stop sending people to the. To the video shop. And so Symphony has a whole lot of different software tools that enables insurance companies to modernize and transform, transform really easily and quickly. So we're on that journey. Incredible. And yeah, we've got investors again. And yeah, we're back on that bus.

It's amazing. Yeah. What I love about that, again, is that you've found a problem and you're like, hey, well, let's look what a really amazing solution would be. I'm going to put links to that actually in the show note because there'll be a few people that be quite interested in learning more about it. So I'll put it in there. And the other thing I want to highlight for the listener and the viewer is that you do quite a bit of speaking around Australia, New Zealand. So if they'd like to hire you to speak and come in and talk to their company about resilience, about the work that you do, about your lessons from your big voyage, I'll make sure and put all the contact details in there for that as well.

Cool. And I promise my voice won't be gone for that one.

You'll get your voice back.

Yeah, totally. Totally.

Now, well, I want to be mindful of your voice. I've just got one last question actually, for you, so I want you just to imagine for a moment we'll fast forward many years into the future. It's your very last day here on earth and someone that means the world to you. They're very young, maybe a grandchildren or something. They come into the room and they say, sean, how do I go about leading my life on purpose? What would you say to them?

Far out. That is deep. It's so easy to say something like, just make sure you're happy. But I think happiness is an outcome of. For me, happiness is an outcome of hard work and purpose is an outcome of hard work. Work. So I would say to them.

Never be afraid of, like such a poor Farron. You want to say this in such a good way. And I'm trying to think of my kids, what I'd say to their kids.

Yeah, I'd say never, never shy away from hard work and that don't ever feel like hard work can't generate happiness for you because I genuinely believe that. I think the harder you work, the more opportunities there are to be happy. So I'd say work hard, work harder than anyone else and you'll find purpose and that. I think that's what I would say.

It's beautiful. And there's a listener right now that needed to hear that, Sean.

Okay, good.

You know, so thank you for sharing that.

No problem.

I want to say thanks for creating the space today. I know you literally got back from the Olympics and it's been full on. You've lost your voice from cheering. So it meant the world for you to come into the studio here in Auckland today. And I look forward to connecting with you again soon.

Yeah, well, thanks so much for having me. It's just great to talk on the podcast and thanks to your listeners too.

Absolute pleasure. Thank you.

Thanks, mate. Cheers.

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