Samuel Whitelock’s Leadership MASTERCLASS: Secrets of All Blacks Culture & 100+ Test Match Legends

I'd like to ship you a free copy of my book Habits of High Performers. If you come and join the 2026 goal setting workshop, I will ship you one of these today. The link is in the notes. Please come and join me to set up the very best 2026 you could imagine. If you've set up goals in the past or New Year's resolutions and they haven't substantiated, I'm here to help you across all the key pillars of your life nail your goals. I'll see you there.

Welcome to Lead On Purpose. I'm James Laughlin, former seven time World Champion and now international keynote speaker and high performance leadership trainer. Each week I bring you an inspiring leader or expert to help you lead your life and business on purpose. Thanks for helping us be a consistently number one ranked show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. I hope you enjoy today's show.

The Lead on Purpose podcast is sponsored by NZ Mortgages. Learn more at NZMortgages Co NZ we can all agree that Samuel Whitelock is a goat. Absolutely. He's one of the greatest of all time. He's the most capped all black rugby player with 153 games. He's an incredible leader, loving father and husband, and I'm proud to say he's a dear friend and someone who I'm delighted to have on the podcast. In our conversation, Samuel reflected on the challenges and triumphs of his career, his upbringing in a competitive family of four boys, and the values that shaped him both on and off the field. Along the way, we dive into his unique bond with Razer Robertson, the current All Blacks head coach, and the unforgettable lessons that defined their partnership. I hope you enjoy the show. Samuel, a huge welcome to the Lead On Purpose podcast.

Cheers. Thank you. Thanks for having me on. I know it's been a bit of a lengthy wait. You've been chasing me a little bit and that's probably one of the negatives of finishing. People know that you can actually manipulate your time and do some things that are potentially been putting off for a while. But really happy to be here, Happy to have Jan and I'm sure it's some awesome stories out here having a.

Good old Chinwick 100%. I'm really glad to have you here and it's spanning back seven years now. So I figure you and I when we chat we tend to go pretty deep, pretty quick and we the surface level stuff tends to flow away. So seven years ago I got a call from a guy called, he says James Chalky here. I says, excuse me, who? He says, chalky, okay. Is that your first name? Yes, it is. Okay. It's my nickname. How can I help you? He says, well, look, my son's going to drum, and I believe you're a drumming teacher, and I was at the time. And he says, look, I understand you've probably got a wait list, but my mate Jenks says, you got to take my son on. You got to work with him and would you do me a favor? I said, oh, if you made a jinx, for sure we can do that. So before the first lesson, something strange happened. Chucky said, can we meet for coffee? I says, mate, no parent has ever asked me to meet for coffee before I start teaching. But of course, I'd love to. I was curious, right? So I met him at a cafe, and next thing, this big truck pulls up, got the All Blacks on the side of it. I said, who's this? And I pops this fella and he walks across to the table and he goes, you James, you chocky?

Yeah.

What's with the truck? He said, oh, I'm the logistics manager with the All Blacks. Oh, cool. So I was fascinated by that. I was asking questions. But Chalky was really passionate to know what I would do with his son and how we would structure it and how he could support, like, he wanted to go the extra mile as a human. And we got chatting about fatherhood. I was a brand new dad at a one year old and I said, look, I'm working on a bit of a project around, like, fatherhood. I'm a rookie and I don't really know much. I'd like to get around other dads who can maybe give me a bit of advice. He says, I've got a fella you need to meet. He's also a new dad. I said, oh, cool, who's that? He says, samuel Whitelock. I was like, oh, I know the name, but I don't know the fella, but that'd be great. I'd love to sit down with him. So Chalky introduced us, and from that point, I remember sitting down and chatting about fatherhood, chatting about your upbringing, seeing how much growing up on the farm and being around your parents and brothers really impacted you. And Chalky was instrumental in bringing us together and creating that friendship. And of course, sadly, we know that Chalky left way too early, sadly, due to pancreatic cancer, but that binded us and bonded us. And I always, when I think of you, I think of him, and you're very similar. Characters, very driven, competitive, family centered and giving. Both of you are very giving. And so as I sit here today, I think of Chalky, and I think if he was sitting in the corner, he'd be chuckling and laughing and winding.

Us both up 100%. Yeah.

You know, so I'm really glad that we can do this kind of full circle seven, eight years later. We've obviously had a few other experiences in between then and now, but you have 153 caps for the All Blacks, the most capped All Black, four Rugby World Cups. You attended, three were in the final, two were gold medals. And of course, you captained All Blacks 18 times. So unbelievable record. You're a goat. And for the one people who are listening who are not familiar with the term, that's greatest of all time. Sam, I know a little bit that would make you uncomfortable. I know you well enough to know that humility is arguably one of your greatest traits. And when I think of Michael Jordan, when I think of Usain Bolt, I'd put you on the same level in your field. And there's something special about how you operate. And I'm excited to get inside your mind over this next hour or so, understand how you operate and what motivates you, because we can all learn from how you operate, both in life and work and relationships. So let's start at the start Vision. Did you start out thinking, I want to be an All Black?

Wow, what an intro. Very, very humbling. Some of those names, I don't belong with them. So I'll definitely take that with a grain of salt in the most positive way you can. One thing, I'll just jump back to Chalky very quickly before we dive into my story is something you said to me, and you said it again. Then Chalky kind of interviewed you for the role rather than just saying, hey, I need a teacher, go for it. And the only other time I've heard anyone interview someone in that type of role. Role was actually my father talking to Mr. Roger Menzies, who was my principal at high school. He said that dad wanted to have a meeting and most principals are trying to get kids or families to their school. But he said he sat down and dad was asking all these questions. He felt, you know, himself get hot because I'm getting asked around, what's my view on this and how am I going to do this? And dad was just trying to do the best thing for us as kids. So really, really cool to hear you talk about chalks and your first meeting of it. So it's really nice to know that the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree, but at the same time spending a lot of time with people that are very like minded and very, very driven in whatever field that is that they're, they're doing. So, yeah, cool to start off a good yarn with the. Some of those great memories that you've already talked on. So for me, the start. Did I always want to be an All Black? Yes, I did. And the main reason I wanted to be an All Black was because my brothers wanted to be one. And I had the typical Kiwi rural upbringing. And I can't say it in any other way than I just wanted to do what my brothers were doing. So when they were out on the farm causing a little bit of trouble, I was right there with them. When they were, you know, running around the athletics track because they wanted to be good at something, I just wanted to do that. Mum and dad said that I didn't really crawl too much. I kind of just stood up and kind of just followed them. And for me, being three or four brothers, there's only five years between all of us. I just had this amazing experience of childhood. I had two brothers to lead the way and challenge me because they were bigger, faster, stronger, smarter, all those things. So I just got to tag along and they dragged me up as well as my, my little brother. He showed up not so long after I was born and turns out he was bigger, stronger, faster than me pretty quickly too. So I just had that upbringing of if I got it wrong, I'd find out about it with the brotherly love that everyone knows about that being a parent now I understand completely why potentially Mum and Dad would get frustrated with.

Us beating the crap out of each other every now and then.

Yeah, boys being boys, I think was the bit of the saying. And oh yeah, we had an awesome childhood. So rugby was definitely part of it, but it was not the only thing. But it was a massive part of our upbringing.

And I think when I look at anyone really, we're a product of our environment. And when you look at your environment, one it's rural, you had pretty much free roam. Like you weren't on a device five hours a day, you were out running around, probably unsupervised because you were safe within the ring fence.

The electric fence unit sometimes did get turned up to keep us a little bit closer to home.

Did that work?

Probably not. So we, we, we did exactly that. We had space. And that's the best thing about growing up rurally. You have space to kind of separate out, but stay close together. I know that contradicts itself, but it allowed us to grow up quickly, but it allowed us to do it in a safe way. Yeah.

It's interesting. I see, like, nowadays a lot of parents don't want their kids to roughhouse, like wrestle, fight, etc. With their siblings. It's like, no, no, behave. But actually, when you look at it and look how it's worked out for you for. So I. I know most of your brothers fairly well and you're good humans, very well grounded. You know, you've got great family lives. Yeah. And.

But I think the roughhousing, like, that's part of it. You guys would have wrestled. Thought it would have been chaos.

Yeah, it was exactly that. Like, it was. Mum talks and, like, she's always awesome to talk to because she sees things in a different way. Like she was the. The only female in a very male dominant household, being four boys, father and her. So she didn't have the chance to do what most mothers probably dreamt of doing, of having a daughter and raising a daughter. So she had to probably get used to us being exactly that busy. Testosterone going through the roof, obviously, puberty, all those things. So we were challenging. But one thing that dad and Mum definitely did for us is they taught us pretty quickly we had to do it together. So if we got in trouble, all four of us, yes, we still got in trouble, but it was almost accepted more than if three of us stood there and watched one do something silly. So what that did is it actually taught us and allowed us to stay together no matter what was going on. So if I was going to do something silly, the other three were like, well, we either stop him or we all do it together and we live with the consequences. And I think that was the best thing. So we were actually in a team environment, but it was our family, so it wasn't like we didn't do what every other family does, but we just had that other element of a big family rurally growing up. And, man, there was some awesome challenges and some pretty cool stories that came out of it.

Now I would like to explore one of those stories. Sometimes your parents had to go and meet with other friends or go out for evening committee meetings and they maybe get a babysitter every now and then.

Yeah. This one comes off a little bit. Does it?

I wonder why.

Yeah.

What happened to this poor babysitter?

Yeah, I'm sweating a little bit here. I'm very sorry. It was definitely the older Brothers, I'll throw them under the bus. But we were just being kids and every kid, you know, if you're playing hide and seek in the house, you know where the good, good spots are to hide. And we'd hide from our babysitters and then would be, say the young ones would be hiding in a room that she couldn't find us, you know, behind the curtains, closet, whatever. But then one brother would go out and then she'd go out to see what he was doing and then we'd lock that door. He'd run around the other way and jump back in the house and would lock the babysitter out. So we did it a couple of times and I think the worst case was when we did it and Mum and Dad came home, I think, a little bit early. She was sitting on the. The back doorstep crying, and we were inside running around, enjoying the freedom of not being in bed, probably eating too much ice cream and a bit of a sugar rush. So we got told off a little bit. And the next day we got sent down to the neighbor's house who was babysitting us, and we had to line up an age order. So George being the oldest, Adam, myself, Luke, and the apology started as George being the oldest, had to lead from the front, which was always his greatest strength, but his greatest weakness because he had to do it at home the whole time. So his apology was, you know, 10, 15 words long, I'm sorry for locking you out, it's unacceptable, etc. Etc. And as it went down, then it got to me. It's like, I'm sorry for locking out. And then Luke was pronounced sorry, and that was it. And then we got on our bikes and biked home and I don't think she babysitted us again. Fair enough. Yeah.

She was kind of tortured and tormented. That's brilliant, lads being lads. And what I love about that, though, is and knowing your mum and dad and getting to know how they brought you up, there's values that were instilled in you and it was respect of other people and it was learn from your mistakes and kind of a stoic philosophy, like, do the right thing. I feel like when I think of your dad particularly, it's like, do the right thing. Even if it's an inconvenience and it's difficult, always do the right thing.

Yeah, I think that. Do the right thing. I know it's only a little thing, but he used to tell us what he expected rather than what he didn't expect. So if I said to you. I don't want you to do something. Especially as a little kid, all you hear is, I want to do that verse. This is what I expected. I want you to do this. This is how it is. And it's only a small thing, but it's actually a massive thing. As soon as you repeat that message and you keep repeating it, sometimes as a kid you're not ready to hear that message, but if you hear it enough times, it slowly sinks in. Or it might actually be two or three years later when you go, hang on, I'm actually understanding why people are saying that rather than doing the things you probably shouldn't. And I make it sound like we were really naughty. We were probably really well behaved away from Mum and Dad when someone else was looking after us. But when we got comfortable in that 15, 20 minutes of shyness wore off, we were, we were into it.

I think back my own childhood. An older sister and a younger brother. Same thing like we were wrestling, fighting, arguing. But also we had great times, lots of great times. That's what it's all about. Now you're all. When you think of the All Blacks in terms of your family tree, there's a large number of All Blacks compared to most other families. You've got a lot of All Blacks in terms of uncles, grandfathers, etc. How many roughly in total?

I've never actually worked it out. So if we go through it quickly and I'm sure I'll get it wrong, that's why it's great. It's in. In on pen, on paper now, but so my mum's father, so granddad was an all black in 53, 54. So his. So mum's uncle was an All Black as well, on the same team. Then mum's sister, so Auntie Jo married Graham Higginson who was an All Black. Dad played for New Zealand Colts. Then George played for All Blacks. Adam played for Black sevens myself and then Luke played for the All Blacks as well. Hannah's my wife's side of the family, her, I'll get this wrong. Great, great, great grandfather played in 1905. Not for the originals. There was a three Test series before or as the originals were on the boat. So he played in the third test match. So he played one test match as a wing fullback. So he was a little bit faster than the rest of us. So really good to have some speed in the family now.

I love it.

So that's, that's roughly without going into too many more details around junior stuff and that. But yeah, that's pretty much the, the family rugby tree.

Yeah. And it kind of sets like almost an expectation of, hey, we can do this. Others have done it before us. So not an arrogance or an overconfidence, but an actual belief like, hey, it's possible if you put the hard work in. There's a possibility I could put the black jersey on.

Yeah, it's something that like I remember growing up used to always look at granddad's photo on the wall. Granddad passed away when I was six months old, so didn't have a chance to talk to him around. What it was it like traveling and playing in 53, 54? Because their challenges totally different to what ours is, whether it was one phone call home during the tour, boating versus flying. So there's all these different things. So I didn't get a chance to talk to him about it. But the cool thing is it wasn't the thing that was front of mind. It wasn't the thing that was hammered home of, you know, this family members achieved this. There was none of that at all. It was more, what do you guys want to do? What are you interested in Mum and Dad? Well, how can we help? And that's how it was driven. It wasn't us.

Living mum and dad's dreams out for them, it was actually just them encouraging us for whatever we wanted to do and that was the best thing. Yes, rugby was a constant through our young lives and it's been the same through our lives later on as adults, but it hasn't been the thing that's dominated us all the way through. Like we've done so many other things, whether it's on the sporting field, whether it's athletics, basketball, cricket, we gave everything a crack and worked out what we liked and then their encourage encouragement followed. And sometimes their encouragement is actually right. Right, I'll drive you to training, I'll pick you up, I'll help you out to do this. We'll take a car to that tournament. And the cool thing is it wasn't just sport, it was everything else as well. So pretty awesome and privileged upbringing.

It's nice that you can acknowledge that and be aware of that all too often. I think people who get to the top of any game sometimes can forget that their their roots. And it's interesting, you know, I look at sport and knowing your brother Adam quite well, you guys didn't specialize at like, you know, at 11, we're only going to play rugby and that's it. You were very rounded and I think that kids nowadays and parents nowadays probably need to hear that. Like, don't get your kids to specialize at such a young age. Keep it broad.

Yeah, I totally agree. And I know Adam and you have had a number of these conversations. I can't remember. It was the 15 or 11 World cup we went through because we're stuck in a hotel. It's amazing what you end up talking about. Sometimes you go real deep into stuff. Other times it's talking about this, that or everything else. But we went through the. The current squad and the amount of guys that had played to a really high level at school or higher for New Zealand for not only one sport, but two. So Karen Reed, for example, cricket and rugby. Victor Vito, I think, was volleyball and rugby and seven. So he was probably one of the exceptions. He had three.

Andy Ellis was a very good cricketer. So all these people, it wasn't just one sport that dominated. There were so many other things that made them who they were. And if it wasn't a sport, it was normally something else that they'd done. So, like, everyone loves to talk around Richie or Dan. Not many people understand how intelligent Richie is and book smart. So, like, what he did.

Bursary and all his results, he was really, really good there. So we compared everyone because we had time to. We couldn't get out of the hotel, especially in 11. The fans were everywhere and we were getting. Getting stuck. So we actually had those conversations. And the. The numbers were amazing. How it actually changed not only our idea of what made us successful as players that were there, it actually kind of made sense because people had these different skill sets that you only get from playing different sports.

It's a great lesson, I think, for even people off the sports field, people that are working 9 to 5 or whatever they're doing, running a business that keep it rounded, have hobbies, have different experiences. Variety is great.

Yeah. And I totally agree. Like, I'm just entered into the real world because rugby is a bubble. So my last game was. I think it was the 22nd May play for the Barbarians, which was an awesome week. And I highly recommend it to any rugby player. You get an opportunity, you jump at it straight away. So I've entered in the new world. But what I'm doing at the moment is actually looking at what rugby's taught me and how does that actually cross over to the real world, the outside world? And there's so many things that as a rugby player, we're actually potentially being held back because your calendar's set all these different things. But the cool thing is we've had different things going in our lives and because we've been busy in different ways, I think that gives us an advantage. And I see that with a lot of people, people that are doing a lot of charity work or not only doing really well in their business or their job or role, but they're coaching a rugby team or netball team, whatever it is, they've got two or three key things in their lives and it keeps them busy, but it also keeps them fresh for that other thing. So they don't just go, right, I'm getting sick of doing my job. It turns into the grind. There's no variety in it. And I think that's when I look back at my career now, it's also still so fresh because I've only just finished. The years that something massive happened in my life were probably the years I played the best rugby. So I think of 2017, especially.

First year captain of the Crusaders. My son was born, purchased a farm, so there was so much going on and I couldn't live in that space every year. But that year I think I played my best rugby because I was fresh for whatever I went into because I was so busy with everything else.

So this idea of being busy can actually be, if you manage it, very helpful.

Yeah. So that's. That's one side of it. But then, don't get me wrong, you can't burn the candle from both hands. You can't have the hammer down the whole time not taking your foot off the accelerator. I got to the end of that year and my body was beaten up and I needed to take a breath and took me a while to adjust and work out what that happy balance was. So it's working out where that level for you is. And the way I like to explain it to people at university or at high school, you get given an assignment, the start of the year and say, this is the date you have to finish by. Some people will start and go, right, I've got six months, and they'll do it straight away, get it done. Other people wait till they go, okay, I got three months to go, I better start getting into it. Other people wait for a week to go and they'll put the hammer down because they know that's where the pressure sits. And they know if I go any longer than this, my results won't reflect my knowledge or what I can do. So everyone's different, but you've got to work it out for you and where you sit. Some people can Take on more. Some people probably have to do less to do a better job of it.

So well put. It takes me back to, I think 2021. You came and joined our leadership mastermind. And I learned so much, and I know everyone learned so much from you over those four or five months. But the one thing I take away from that, that I won't forget is, is tap on, tap off. And it really, to me, when you're sharing this idea of you can be full noise at work or whatever it is, but actually that's you tap on. But when you leave work, leave rugby park, whatever it might be, the tap goes off. So when you think of tap on, tap off, you know, where have you used that to be effective?

I, I use it in quite a lot of different scenarios. And sometimes my wife will see that I need to have a vent. Whether that's something's frustrating me in whatever area of life that she can pick it up on. She'll potentially prompt a question to get me to vent, but she'll make sure I vent completely. So she'll get me to turn the tap all the way on and vice versa. It works in different ways when I can see it through her and sometimes just having that vent is enough to.

Get it out of, out of you, off your chest. Then she go, okay, right. What I go to now, I go to what's my most most important thing now? What is going to be my first step into writing this wrong or improving the system, creating a better habit, breaking an old habit or whatever it is. And that's the way I use it. But then at the same time, you can't just go hard the whole time. So when you're in, you're in, but when you're out, you're out. And I know that's really easy to say and really hard to do. I know when people running their own business and using farmers, for example, everyone can work really hard. But when they get back to the house and they're sitting down with dinner and then they look up and see something that isn't right and that is going to cause them issues going forward, do they leave their dinner on the table, go and fix it? Do they finish the meal first, go fix it, or do they ring someone else and do it, or do they actually not worry about it and go fix it later? And there's obviously a scale of what importance wise you have to do it stock on the road, okay, that's a have to do. But then there's these other ones going, okay, I can't actually fix that now. I need to just step away, let that happen. And then tomorrow when I wake up, I'm in a good spot to go and sort that out first thing and carry on from there.

And I guess if we don't have that as a tool, then we can burn out. Our mental health will decline and our relationships will likely suffer.

Well, it's everything. So I think if you're looking after yourself, then you can look after other people. And I know this sounds funny, but we see it when you're on a plane, they're like, put your mask on first before you help someone else. And I know that sounds so simple, but if you actually sort yourself at first, then you can help. If you try help everyone else, you're only actually putting everyone else in danger.

100%. I want to think about everyone else for a second and. And go to the word culture. So all over the world, no matter where I go, there's books about the All Blacks and different books written about it, and they're like, this is what we want our culture to look like. We want the all Blacks culture in our business or in our. Whatever I like. Okay, great. Now I want to talk to you about that because you spent many years in the All Blacks. The culture arguably must have easily evolved and shifted and. But it was always solid. There was always a solid base. What is culture?

You've actually stolen my question. I was going to say to you straight, well, how do you define culture? Because I've had that question just like yourself, so many times. You know, we want to do this, this and this. And my first question is, what is culture? And I think the best answer I've had come back to me is the way things are done around here. And I think that's exactly, exactly what it is. So, for example.

There'S no such thing as a good culture or a bad culture. It's just the culture. If we, for me, so us here in the room, if we get up and leave here and leave rubbish everywhere, that is the culture that this group is living. If we spend more time together, that's what's accepted. If, for example, we go to leave this, the studio and all of us pick up the rubbish and we leave it tidy in a better spot than we found it, that is the culture. So for me, it's the way things are done around here. And then that obviously can go up and down at any stage. I can go left and right, up and down, backwards and forwards, and it comes down to the people in that culture. So rugby team or a commercial team, whatever it is, the culture is set by the people in it. And every culture will be different no matter if those group of people are very similar, there's someone new in can change. And for me, it's a really simple way of looking at it, is what's the standard around here, what's accepted and what are you willing to walk past versus what are you going to do about it? Are you going to go in behind and fix it up? Or are you going to have a hard, challenging conversation, say, hey, we need you to do this, because this is what's expected here.

It sounds like it has to be quite clear. It's got to be almost obvious and stated that this is how we operate.

Yes, it is. But the worst thing you can do is put it on the wall. This is our culture, this is what's expected. Because for me, they are just words on a wall. You've got to bring it to life. And the best way to sum it up is when you can ask someone straight away what's expected here and they go bang, bang, bang. There's no hesitation, it's all straight there. There's no okay, what did we had. We had this written down. It's got to be simple and clear and easy. So I think that's the best way to sum up culture in my view, the way things are done around here and the easiest way to do it is ask someone what's expected and if they can go bang, bang, bang. Normally the first one or first or second key message comes out. That is actually the key thing. Rather than 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, all of a sudden you're starting to get into a little bit hairy fairy for me personally.

Yeah, I agree. So it's like a number of key things that we all adhere to and hold that standard. And you said earlier, the, the standard you walk past is the standard you accept.

Yeah. And a lot of these things, like, they're not my little phrases that have come up. There are things that people have said in team environments and some of them said in different ways and they evolve as they go. And like, I really like them because you have to have that open mindset. You can't be fixed and go, okay, this is what it is. Because the world we're living in now, it was different to five years ago. It's going to be different to what it's going to be in five years time. So what's expected of your team culture? And when I say team culture, I mean whether it's Your little accounting business, whether it's your online podcast, your sports team, your family, that culture is going to change. And it's going to change because the world's changing fast. Yeah, we got to hear it fast.

And there's that idea of reality. We've got to deal in reality as opposed to dealing the past. So I'd love to chat about the All Blacks and Crusaders too. I mean, that's where you started. You came down to Christchurch, you got into this incredible culture at the Crusaders, and then through into the All Blacks. What were some of those things that are really obvious? One that I would like to actually explore to start with is sweep the sheds. So for the person that hasn't heard that saying, what does sweep the sheds actually mean? And where, when you think about it, have you actually done that in the past?

Hey, James here. I wanted to take a quick moment to let you know about something. Look, I get asked to deliver keynotes and workshops for teams and companies all over the world, from London to Antarctica, from America to Australasia, from armies to small businesses to large corporates to sports teams. But I go in and deliver keynotes around the mindset of high performers, around the habits of high performers, about how we navigate change. If you would like me to come and speak to your team or speak at your conference or deliver a bespoke workshop, please get in touch with my team. Carolinejlochlan.com will be able to help. I'll also make sure that we put that in the show notes.

Yes, yet again, it's one of those things that everyone asks is, do you actually sweep the sheets? And the answer is yes. And it's a really simple thing of look, the way you leave.

Should reflect where you are as a team. And it's not just the sheds, it's the, the team bus, it's the hotel room, it's all those little things that make it up. One thing that the All Blacks used to always say, and Darren Shannon's All Black manager, when I was there, this was something he would say all the time and he'd be 100% right on this. He would say, if you did something negative, that person is going to go tell seven people. If you do something positive, they're going to go tell three people. So it's really easy and it's human nature to look at the negatives, the glass half empty, the issues in the world, what's not right, victim, all those things. So you've got to do more positive things, more things that are going to enhance Your culture and you're going to do them more to actually have that change. Because the negative things are so easy to talk about, the easy to spot, easy to see and people share them more. So for me, that was something that really hit home of, okay, yep, we're sweeping the sheds and all those things. But it's not just that. It's actually so many more things rather than the one time you don't do it is the time they'll tell everyone. And then all of a sudden you've got to start back from where you were to get forward, to get that change. Make that change a habit.

Yeah. And that's it. They become these high performance habits that you guys just perform.

Yep.

You're not thinking about them, they're just things you do.

Yeah. And it's amazing. Like I've read a few of the different books around, you know, like Atomic Habits and all those things. Like, I've done all my own research and when playing rugby, trying to look for that little bit of, again, where's that little bit of difference that potentially I can have? And I really enjoy the.

The idea of stacking habits. So, okay, after we do this, we do that. So finish the game, we're going to tidy the sheds and then we're going to just make sure we sweep it up from then on. What does it look like? Okay, I'm the last in the bus. So as I walked down the bus, I just made sure this stuff was clear. Like that's just a habit on a habit. And then all of a sudden it's, it's easy. You don't need to think about it. And all of a sudden people see it because people see everything. You know, you think you're getting away with something. People know exactly who was sitting in this seat, who's left, you know, the protein shake or the rubbish and tape on the floor. People understand and, you know, people think they get away with it, but everyone picks up on it real quick. Yeah.

100% people can sense it. And this idea of prioritizing, like, I feel like the All Blacks, particularly when they're most consistent, you know, and you were there through a lot of that. They really knew how to prioritize and focus on like the critical few. How did that land with you when you first joined the team, even being in Super Rugby as well? How did you adapt to prioritizing?

I had it explained to me and I still remember the conversation. I close my eyes now and I can hear the words. I can see Mike Kron saying it he goes, look, everyone's got a thousand things to do as a coach. He goes, we've got these issues to work on. Which one do we put our time and energy? Because you can't do everything. And for him at that time, he was the scrum coach, so he would love to have 25, 30, an hour long. He wouldn't get it. He'd get 14 minutes. And the trainer's sitting there looking at the tops, going, come on, hurry up. As soon as his time's done, Steve is the head coach, or Ted is blowing the whistle and everyone's gone. So he's going, okay, right, I've got these 14 minutes. How do I be the most efficient I can be? So here's the list. But if I nail that there as a priority, does that knock out for four or five underneath them? It normally does. So he, for me, was exceptional coach because he broke skills down into a really simple way to understand it. So he'd start at the bottom, technique, add technique with pressure, and then it would just go in that stage. So for a scrum, the easy way to do it, one on one scrum, two on two, three on three, five on five, eight on eight.

Then when you get to 808 and he nailed it, he'd stop it. Because we're in a good spot, we've felt what we're trying to do. That was it. And all that came back to was taking the list of what we need to work on, because we needed to work on everything around the hit, the second shove, the balance. There's a thousand things there that make up a scrum. But he knew, sort out the list, get the priority at the top, and then all of a sudden, it was easy.

Prioritize the priorities. I like that. And he simplified it for everyone, simply.

Yep. And the best thing with that is because it was simple. Under pressure, when you're under fatigue, the game's on the line. It was simple. So it wasn't complicated to go, okay, it's this hard equation, and under pressure, I'm tired, I don't have enough oxygen in my body. There was nothing about that. It was just about reinforcing the basic principles and being able to do that under pressure repetitively.

Yeah, that's the difference. It makes the difference at that upper level.

In any field, it doesn't matter what level. So. And it doesn't matter what. Whether it's sport, whether it's work, whether it's with your family, your wife, your kids, your husband, whoever it is, it's Been able to nail those things repetitively.

To a really high standard and it's interesting. The one thing I really noticed, I think every all black that I've sat with and a crusader as well for that matter, and coach, anytime I've met them, whether it's for a catch up, a coffee or a sit down like this, they're always early. Always early.

I was getting a little bit nervous there. I parked in a car park building. I haven't been living in Christchurch for a couple of months and I got a little bit lost and I was looking at the time but I had enough time up my sleeve so I definitely was here early.

Was time really an important factor in terms of how you guys performed and showed up?

Yep. Yeah, it's one of those things beyond time verse don't be late and just saying that, being on time for me, I was like, right, I've got to be on time versus don't be late, I'm thinking, or how close can I get it? So it's just yet again, wording is critical, but that's the obvious one. We didn't have rules, we had expectations as all blacks and they've always changed and grown. But the first one was always be on time. And when it means be on time is when that 2 o' clock meeting starts or that 5 o', clock, whatever it was, you're ready to go. Not sitting down, getting your pad out and your pen and getting comfy, it's that time goes off, we're engaged, we're into it, we go.

What happened when someone didn't quite meet those expectations?

Yeah, there was always the, the nerves that go with, okay, I'm running late here. Or you know, you're in the team environment and all of a sudden a lift has just gone down and you're pressing that button and when you're trying to make it go faster, all of a sudden it goes slower. So the biggest thing was not to go there at all. And we did have times where the wouldn't be an issue around timing. But whenever someone was late, the first thing was is there a reason? And sometimes there was a genuine reason. So that obviously flied. But if it wasn't, then there was always consequences and some of the harshest ones were being selection. So it's pretty hard when someone would be starting in the team and they obviously being bumped to being on the reserves or the reserves bumped to.

It's a massive consequence.

It is. But if everyone else is there on time, you should be able to do it too. And I know for some people it's their strength, for other people it's not. But if everyone's going to be there for you, you're going to be there for them and just be on time.

That's beautiful. There's something I always think about and it's that in good teams the coaches hold the players to the, the standards or the expectations. But in great teams, the players hold the players to the standards and expectations. How did that play out? And when I say that and share that, how did that play out in the All Blacks? Was it players upholding standards or did you always have to rely on Steve and Darren to hold you guys up to them?

I agree with what you said around.

You know, coaches holding good teams, coaches holding players accountable.

Players holding players. But I think the next level again is everyone holding everyone accountable. So it doesn't matter if you are the most capped or best coach in the world, best player, if the youngest player can come in and say, hey, look, you're late, this is the consequence, then I think that's something that's really powerful and don't get me wrong, that's really hard to do as a young player. Come in and hold. Sometimes people you've been watching on the tv, you've always grown up, you know, you had posters of them on the, on the wall when you were a kid to be able to do that. But I think when the team is operating and everyone can hold everyone accountable. So it doesn't matter what part and what role you play with the team, if you can do that, you're in a really, really powerful spot. And the best thing is everyone's competing in a positive way and you're trying to help out versus catch out. So you're trying to make sure everyone's there. So if for example, you and I are having in depth convo on the corner around rugby.

The team meeting's about to start in five minutes. But it's a bit of a two minute walk. Instead of everyone just walking off to be like, boys, we've got a meeting, let's go. So it's just helping out and making sure that people working together because you can't do it by yourself.

I get a gauge that there's like high trust, high care in a team.

Yeah, I think the very, very successful ones, that's what is there. And you can feel it and you can see it and sometimes it's that thing it's easy to see but really hard to explain. And yeah, the teams that I was involved with when you had it. It was actually really easy to see. And people would actually from outside be able to say to you, hey, I saw this. This was awesome. And yet again, it's kind of those things. Three people, they'd tell. And when they saw something that was really powerful, they'd probably tell more people because of it.

It's interesting, this concept of three. So Dr. Barbara Fredrickson, University of North Carolina, I think it was, did this piece on negative and positive emotions and words. And so she found that for every negative word a person said, they had to think of or do three positive things to outweigh the emotional toll that it took.

Yeah, I'd agree with that.

That adds up to what you say.

So. And like, don't get me wrong, you need to have a positive look at things, but sometimes you need to have the reality of this is where we're sitting at the moment. But the plan that comes in the process to get you out of that spot and help you grow and evolve, that comes from the positive talk and what and how you and the team are going to do to implement those things you've talked about or the plan you've come up with.

Can we chat about the talk about the positive talk side of things? Because reading in the book, and I should just. I want to highlight that the book is available right now. So for anyone that's watching this right now, before Christmas, please order a copy. Order multiple copies. For anyone you know who loves rugby or leadership. I read it, Simon, a couple of days because I was just fascinated by what I was understanding about your life, but also how you view leadership, how you look at culture. So I'm going to put a link in the show notes for anyone to grab a copy. But there's one thing that come up in there I wanted to talk about. So your dad mentioned towards the end of the book that at times you experience nerves. You're human like the rest of us. How did you develop tools? Because playing the All Blacks, playing in any top team, there's pressure, there's expectations, there's assumptions made of performance. How did you learn to deal with those nerves?

Yeah, there were. As you're asking, that question is, in my mind, there's a couple of key things through my career, like timing wise people say, oh, you know, I had outstanding timing. But I think a lot of that came through a bit of dumb luck because when I first got introduced to the team, there was some key guys that were injured and I only got an opportunity because they were injured. So there was kind of no one else left. And they're like, okay, you're tall, you've been playing, right? We'll get you to come in for a couple of days. And that couple of days turned into a career. But the. The best thing about it was.

I entered a team that wasn't successful. So my first year in the All Blacks was 2010. We hadn't been in South Africa for three tests in 09, so that was hard for everyone to say. As All Blacks, as All Black fans, as rugby people, South Africa always been the old foe and the team that we've loved to play against because of the challenge, it's hard to play them at home, hard to play them away, hard to play them in World Cups. So that was the great thing. But I got involved with a team that had so many people that hadn't been successful at World Cups. We hadn't won a World cup for 23 years, 24 years. I was 23 at the time, at a World Cup. And we spent so much time, and especially 2010, setting and understanding what our processes were around the mental space, because everyone in the world at that stage was roughly the same size, height, strength, endurance, everyone was very similar. Skill level was probably one thing that we had over a lot of sides, but every side had either caught up or potentially were going past. So we spent a massive amount of time on the mental space. We talked around what actually happens scientifically. So flight, fight, freeze. What does it mean? What do you do? What's your traits? How do you get out of it? How do you understand it? How do you.

Be aware what you do? But the biggest thing for me was I broke it down real simply and had Kerry Evans and Gilbert Anoka, who led a lot of this stuff, they broke it down into a real simple framework, was it's going to happen. You got to identify it to happen, and then how do you get out of it? And you take that time it takes you to do that, and how do you make it as short and small as possible? So for me, what my trait was was understanding it. And sometimes it's really easy to understand, okay, I missed that tackle, they scored the try. I'm going to be in the. In a pretty bad spot mentally, whether that's in the. In the red and the blue as they talk about, but for me was understanding it, then how do I get it? So for me, how to get out of it? So for me was always wiggle my toes would take me out of my mental loop, get me back to where I was, where My feet were. And the best thing with that was it would allow me to go to what is my next thing I've got to do. And that was actually really simple. So I didn't want to have something that people could see. So some people would squirt water all over their face, some people would slap their legs. But I didn't want the opposition to be able to understand my cues and go, okay, Sam's under pressure here, let's run at him. Let's try rough him up in a ruck. Let's say something to him and make it worse. So I always wanted to do something that people couldn't see. So for me it was wiggling my toes. I used to do a lot of stuff with licking my, my fingers. That was early on. But then I realized people were seeing me doing that so I went to a different one. But I still use that now, whether it's with my kids, whether it was on the field or in any shape of life. Because life throws challenges at you and you do feel pressure in different ways.

100%. I love that you had exposure with Dr. Kerry Evans and Gilbert Anoka. I'm actually going to put a link in the show notes for anyone listening to Dr. Kerry Evans book as well. Performing under pressure, which I find really fascinating. And I think this idea of neuro linguistic anchors this for you it was your toes. Some people, it's just bit of pressure on the hand or as you said, touching your fingers. These things break our patterns of thinking and often that's what holds us back. And I like the idea. I talk about men's most important next step. Like when I'm under pressure, which can be from time to time as a parent too. Okay, break the pattern. Okay, what's the most important next step? Just the next one, not the next 10.

Yeah. I think people, they say to you, oh, you've had an amazing rugby career and all those things and it's very humbling hearing that. But when you actually break it down, what do I have to do? Right now it's actually very simple and easy. And I think, you know, for me, getting my wiggling my toes was my first step, next task. Then it was my body language. So standing up tall, which yet again opens up your lungs so you get breath, your eye line, where are you? You down, you up. Are you actually neutral all those things? Yes. You can take this really complex thing but the best thing was under pressure. And this is what Kerry definitely said to us is it's got to be simple and you've got to be able to go to it. When you're under fatigue, when you're at that highest point of the game, is this going to be the defining moment? Are you ready to take it? Does that excite you or does it make you want to run and hide? And just even hearing those words, me saying it now, it was something that excited me around, okay, how many times can I identify? How quick can I get back? Does it take me 2 minutes? Does it take me 15 seconds? Does it take me 2 seconds? Does take me a second. So then that was a really nice thing for me at that stage, my career to go, okay, I've got a good understanding of it now. Now I get to practice it, I get to do it at home, I get to do it university, I get to do it on the sports field, the training field, in games, you know, does it work better this way? Does it work better that way? And just trying to have that open mindset of growth, that was something that I definitely very, very thankful. Getting such an early stage in my career because it set me up in that mental space.

Yeah. And I could see that when you perform, but I can also see that with you off the field, when you're dealing with things and often there could be pressure on you off the field, when you've got people wanting your time, people wanting to get a piece of you or a photo with you, you handle it with composure. But it can't always be easy.

No, no. Sometimes it's the worst case scenario. The kids are being kids and pressures on home, you're running potentially close to time because you're always on time. So there's things there that you've just got to go, okay, right, what do I need to do right now? And one of the hardest things is actually saying a note, saying no to people of, hey, look, I've got to go because I'm going to miss this flight. I've got to go, I've got to look. And that's the hardest one. You say to a fan and some of them, you know, you might never see again, you're going to say, hey, look, I'm not being rude. And you really hope they understand that that is a legitimate thing. You've got to go because you're under time pressure and 99 of the time people are really understanding. And that definitely helps because getting better at saying no because saying yes is easy. Oh, can you come help it? Yeah, I'll do it. It's actually the easier way. But being able to say no, I Can't do it at the moment. Doesn't mean I can't do it in the future. But just at the moment, it's a no for now.

And most good humans will respect that. Acknowledge that.

Yeah. And like, you're a prime example here. You wanted me to come out and have a yarn a couple of years ago, and it was just so busy that, you know, whenever rugby wasn't on, I was trying to spend as much time with my kids at that. That beautiful young age that they are. So it's really nice now where I'm not chasing the rugby ball around and have a little bit more time to come in and have a. A proper yarn, rather than doing it rushed and not doing it properly.

No, I appreciate it. That's the way to do it. Go deep. And essentially, you said something a minute ago, I wanted to kind of underline. You know, complexity kills execution. And Kerry Evans was saying, like, keep it simple, because when the pressure is on, if it's too complex, you won't execute. So you've obviously mastered that from a performance standpoint. Keep it super simple.

I wouldn't say I've mastered it. I. I think.

Yet again, it's easy for. For you and your mind to go to the negatives, the games you lose versus the games you win. But I think when I look at the amazing people that I've been involved with, whether it was on field coaches, the guys that did that consistently, have had some amazing careers and achieved some amazing things.

Agree. And everything rises and falls on leadership, in my opinion. You look at leadership from a head coach standpoint, a CEO standpoint, the mother and the father of a family standpoint, it all rises and falls on how we carry ourselves. So with your experience, if you think back, you know, both Crusaders and at the All Blacks, how do you reflect back on some of the head coaches and how they led and some of the traits you took from them, and maybe some things you learned, like, maybe not do that.

Exactly that. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses, and you have your strengths, you have your weaknesses, and I'm the same. And I know the coaches that I've really connected with. When you're younger, you're. There's so much to learn, especially in a team environment, rugby. So there's you. You're kind of like putty. There's. You're so flexible and you want to get better and you want to give things a go. You're not fixed in your way. As you go through your career, you know what works for you. You become a Little bit more fixed and it's probably a little bit harder to be open minded. And some of the best coaches I've had have asked the right question in the right way. And I know for me, I knew what I was good at. I knew how to potentially do that on a repetitive stage, being through a rugby game. But where I really got the most growth is when people would challenge me and go, why are you doing it this way? And actually not be super direct. But they would actually have more meaningful conversations. And I found when people had those conversations with me, I would be probably a little bit more open to change rather than just saying, do it this way. So that was just me and my personality and I think that was how they potentially got more out of me towards the latter part of my career. Because when you're young, and I know I'm still young in the world sense, but as a rugby player, 36 is towards the older scheme of things.

Yeah, no, I 100% get it. And it brings me, when I'm thinking about one of these coaches, it brings me something you wrote in the book, but you also shared with me about four or five, five years ago in the Mastermind. And that was Razor Robertson. And he has an amazing way of telling stories and painting pictures to get a message across. So you shared a story and I'd love if you, if you can reflect on it, remember. But it was a story around the sheepdog and the rooster. So what. Why did he have to show you those two images?

I think to go back to your previous question, like Ray, sorry, Razor, he's got some strengths. So like, that is his strengths, painting pictures, telling stories. Like we used to always tease him that, oh, you know, it's your performance coming up, it's a team meeting because he's up there and he's performing. But then there's other things in his life that he's probably not quite, you know, nailing it as well as he should. And it's the same with all of us, all of us are that way. But something he did for me and it was amazing because it just spoke to me on all the right levels. So I'm a little bit similar to him, whether I'm dyslexic or not, get B's and D's around. So he loves telling stories because his writing and reading, hopefully I'm not throwing him under the bus here, is not probably where you'd expect it to be. So drawing pictures and this is what he used to tell us. He just, at school draw Pictures of him surfing and playing rugby. So he loved pictures and telling stories that way. For me, I was probably the same. So when he goes, hey, here's a photo of a rooster walking across the, the creek or drain or whatever it was with a bridge and all the hens were following, he goes, this is you. And I'm like, okay, this is a little bit my, my language. And then he gets out this other one, he goes, oh, this is a collie. And because we're in New Zealand, we call them heading dogs. Me from a rural upbringing, Ray from the beach, she's got no idea what's going on. He's like, I need you this. And I'm like, couldn't help myself. For kind of like, you mean the heading dog kind of, you know, great relationship with the head coach and captain and which has always got to be that humor is something that I think makes that relationship so, so healthy. So he, he showed that. But what he was saying is what I'd been doing as a player, I'd just been get stuck in, right, we're going to go do this. I'm leading by example. I'm first every drill. It was actually hurting me as a player because I was training potentially too hard. I was leading potentially too hard. I was actually leaving no space for anyone else to lead and grow. But that photo was a nice way to say, hey, look, there's different ways and different styles of doing it. So I just had to manipulate my style to get the best out of other people. What Ray was saying is, look, I can go and try get better by 3, 4, 5%, which would help me and the team, but it's not going to help as much as if I still try to get better but leave space for everyone else to grow 15, 20, 30% in different areas, then in return that actually allows me to grow in different areas and actually just worry about what I needed to do because leadership became really easy. So that's where that conversation kind of started. And it's kind of the long way to it to explain it. But the nice thing was after that conversation, he could walk past me and give me a little shoulder bump and say, hey, great rooster today, or great sheepdog or great collie. And that was a really nice way to again, as Kerry said, take a simple problem, look at the complexity of it, but then bring it back to the really simple one word sheepdog or two word sheepdog, rooster, whatever it was. And it was a nice way to just finish that conversation and have it as an easy touch. Point.

Sam, obviously you've spent a lot of time with Razer. You've got to understand how he works and vice versa. The one thing that comes to mind for me when I think of Razer being around him is that he's very affable, very connected to people.

Affable is a big word. What's affable mean, Please?

Affable. So he's like, you know, there's a lightness there to him. He can connect and there's know he has a way of communicating with people.

And I'd say he's bubbly.

Yeah, yeah, there you go. He's bubbly. I agree. Now how important is that as a, as a leader of, you know, again, a family, a business, a team? How important is it to be bubbly and approachable and connected?

I think the, the best thing about that is it's him. So he's not trying to be someone that, that he's not. So everyone's really good at picking up on body language. Like it's, it's all in us depending on your beliefs and upbringings, but that's hardwired into us. So you walk into a room and you kind of go that kind of corner. Like there's something about him. I just, I can't put my finger on it. It's normally because he's trying to hide something. The best thing with Ray being bubbly and being him, it's him. So everyone will trust him because he's that way. And that was something that I was a little bit worried when I, when he first asked me to be captain in 2017, I was like, oh. I looked at the guys in front of me that had done it before. I look at the top black hitters, the Reuben thorns, the Richies, the Ritos, and gone. I'm steaming into some massive boots here. But what Ray was saying to me, and he was doing it himself, he goes, look, you need to be you, I need to be me. And we'll work through the relationship as it grows and evolves. It was my first year as captain since I've been captain at school. So it'd been kind of a 10 year gap. I hadn't been captain, so it was actually really nice. It was challenging, but it's one thing I did. And you and I have talked about this before.

I read the book the Captain's Class and there were so many different great leaders in it and they all with them, they lead in different ways. So there's nothing worse than me trying to go be the bubbly guy or me being someone who I'm not. There's no point, Ray going from the bubbly guy who loves telling stories, going to be the cold guy in the corner that is giving off all this negative energy. The best thing with that is it just allowed me and him to be us and then we worked out how to lead in our own way. Because it's never just about one person, it's always about the group. And I think that's probably something that I really enjoyed towards the end of my career is working out where is the hole in this leadership group? What are we missing? Are we missing the bubbly guy? Are we missing the serious guy that just doesn't say a lot and does it this way, Are we wherever it was and then I'll try manipulate and get better in that space or maybe encourage someone else that is that already to step into that role.

That's really, I mean massive situational awareness. And I think as you grow and mature as a person and as a player or as a leader, you start to see things differently.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, and going back to Steve Hansen. So now sir Steve Hansen, we've had had him on the show before and really enjoyed his outlook and perspective on leadership. When you think back to your time at the All Blacks with him, what comes to mind in terms of how he impacted you as a leader and impacted you as a player?

Yeah, so Steve and I like he was the forwards coach when I first got selected. So he saw me from the start all the way through to 100 plus test matches. So he would have seen a massive amount of growth not only with me on the rugby field, physically, mentally, skillfully, all those things, but he would have seen me change from a 21 year old skinny tall kid to the person I am now. So he would have had an amazing time seeing not only myself, but all these other players that went through a very similar journey. Like he was very challenging to myself and he wanted to get more out of me. And what I felt from Steve at the time was he was very hard on me and if anything he potentially not picked on me, but he drove me to higher standards than he'd hold other people to, which at the time was quite frustrating. But now once I've finished and towards the later part of my career, I, I actually understood he was trying to help me and we probably didn't.

At the time. I probably didn't understand that that's what he was trying to do. I thought he was, you know, probably just using me as the example to everyone else. But what he was trying to do is actually challenge me to, to be better. And the reward I got for that was actually being at that time the fastest guy to get to 100 Test matches. So where we were at the start of my career to where is at the end, I had to really understand that he was doing that to get the best out of me. At the time, I probably found it a little bit hard. And me being me, I probably thought about it too much rather than actually just go and have a yarn and be like, okay, how can you help me? Or how can I help you more? And that's probably a maturity thing because he saw potential in me and I probably didn't realize what my goals were at that stage. I didn't understand that it was actually possible. And he definitely helped me along that, that road to, to get there.

He was instrumental in helping you become the man and the player you are.

Yeah. So sometimes, you know, Steve worked out for me. I probably needed the, the rattle of the cage every now and again. And that's what showed up on the, the rugby field at times. You potentially might have done it too much and it, you know, if you use the carrot too much, it can lose its effect. If you use the stick too much, you can lose the effect. So working that out and that's something for me as a player. Towards the end of my career, I didn't need that stick because I knew what I wanted to achieve and I was very driven as I was in the younger part of my career. But it was just a different way of doing it. I probably needed Steve in those first couple years and.

Yeah, Samuel moments. Big moments. We've talked a lot about all the building blocks and so forth, but let's talk about some of the big moments. We have to acknowledge those. So you're one of the very few humans on the planet to have played at four World Cups, three finals and win two back to back. Quite remarkable. Those are big moments. So do any of those moments stand out as particularly special or particularly, you know, high pressure moments that you had to push through? What stands out when you think about those four events?

Oh, there's so many things that you could sit here for hours and talk around different things and as soon as you bring someone else from those campaigns, and it's pretty awesome when you start talking and then you talk about, oh, what happened here, and then your story leads into another one and then where you end up. But from, for me, there's so many of those moments that definitely, as A rugby player. We always dreamed about doing as, as kids, being able to say that, achieve some of those things. And it's still weird because as rugby players were terrible. We don't actually stop, smell the roses, and take that moment to.

Understand those amazing things that we've achieved. We're normally always, oh, what's next week, what's next week, what's next season? I want to change my goals. I want to get better now that I've stopped. It's actually been really nice to actually reflect on a few of those things, but I'm not quite at that final stage to sit there and actually really go over it. And I think that'll kind of come in a couple of years. But to answer your question, there's probably too many of those moments to really nail down on a couple.

But, yeah, there's some pretty cool ones there.

Your first final, you win it. So what age are you? 23.

Yep.

Okay, so you're a kid, essentially. You're a young, very young man.

Yeah.

Did you realize the gravity of it when it happened?

No, not at all. And I talked about a little bit. Andrew Hore came up to Owen Franks and I were sitting there. Owen and I played a bit of school rugby together, knew each other. We were the. The babies of the team. Oh, we had played a few more games than, than I had, but we were just sitting there, just absorbing it, taking it all in. And Andrew Jorhori had been to a number of World Cups. He had tasted defeat. He understood how hard it was to win one. And he said to us, look, you don't. Guys don't know what you've just done. And we kind of nodded and yeah, Hori's just being Hori. But now after my full career, looking back, I totally know what he meant because you can have the team to do it. You don't show up on the day, you lose. So many different things go into it, and it's a really nice moment. That's probably one that definitely sits in that pretty cool spot because of my career is almost around the wrong way. I started with winning and. And didn't get across the line at the end. Everyone obviously always wants the fairy tale finish, but there's no such thing.

Yeah, you got to just give it your best shot. That first gold medal, you know, Rugby World Championship versus the second one. What was the difference between Samuel the player, Samuel the leader, Samuel Lehuman. Had he changed a lot between those two?

Hopefully yes and no. All in one. So hopefully I remained the same person in the respect of the way I acted, the way I caught up with friends, family. So I hope there was no.

Big head swelling or, you know, arrogance or anything like that. Ground grew into it. I would say I was very driven after 2011 and this is a very small thing, but finishing the World cup on the sideline. So one of my big drivers in 15 was I wanted to be out there and the last play and whether that meant to win a lineup ball to win the game, whether it was, we're hard on our line, we've got to defend for 30 plus phases. I wanted to be out there on the field because that was what happened in 11. I came off and I'd played my part and then it was time for everyone else to finish the game. Which rugby is an 80 plus minute game and people were asked to play different minutes and different involvement. But for me that was a real big driver in 15. So it was a really nice moment. When the final whistle went, I was standing opposite Ben Franks, who didn't get on in the 2011 final. We were standing next to each other. So it was so nice. When that final whistle went, we looked at each other and I know what I was thinking and I'm 99% sure I knew what he was thinking. The difference between when that whistle goes, yes, you, yes. We'd won as a team, but the feeling of being on the field was so much better than not.

What did it mean to you?

I think it was just yet again one of those things. Had always dreamed about it, always talked about it with the brothers, but to be able to actually live out some of those things that I never thought would be possible was an amazing opportunity. And to be able to share that with some people that I've been through some massive highs and massive lows with was amazing. And obviously having friends in the stands, but also family, having mum, dad there, having my wife Hannah there. So they have seen all the highs, the lows, the pressures, the broken bones, the stitches, the selections, dropped, all those things. So really nice to share that moment with them.

It's very special. And you in the book, I love how you really honor the people in your life who helped you and continue to support and help your journey.

Yeah, that was one of the key things.

That I wanted to do. I wanted to be able to put the story and some of the things into, well, pen on paper and that's where the book kind of came from. And one thing that I would love to be able to do now, it's not possible. So my grandfather played in 53, 54. He never wrote a book, never had a diary. So when he passed away when I was six months old, all those stories were lost. Sure, we can pick a few up through other people that were there and experienced it and stories that they've been passed on. But as we know, Chinese whispers, once you tell one story to the next, they're not quite the true representation of what he achieved. And yeah, that would be something that would be amazing to read now. But hopefully, in time, hopefully I can have some grandkids at some stage, they can pick it up and find out what challenges and some of the cool things I got to experience.

I'm so glad you wrote it, I really am, because I know how difficult that must have been to write it. Get it out of your head, out of your heart, onto the page. The difficulty in knowing that you won't be able to capture everything and acknowledge everyone. It's just not possible in a book. How was the journey of writing that? Was it cathartic? Was it challenging? What was your experience?

I said to Dylan and Dylan did an awesome job. Dylan Cleaver was exceptional. And the questions he asked the space. Harry politely nudged me in the right direction to be a little bit more open on certain things that I probably hadn't been in the past. So it was actually a really cool, cool time. I was actually injured for most of it, so my Achilles was playing up. So I spent a lot of time in a hyperbaric chamber, borrowed off Iron Frank's good friend. And I was in there for hours at times with computer. So poor Dylan probably got to see up my nose with the the zoom because I was propped up trying to do the best thing to get my body right, to hopefully chase some of those key goals in, in 2023 while playing super rugby and hopefully at the World Cup.

Amazing. I see you as someone who's very goal oriented. You're specific and clear. You can visualize where you' it you talking about being on the grass. I wanted to be in that next final. I wanted to be on the grass at the the final whistle. That to me is a real high performance trait. And you did something similar. It was probably towards the end of our mastermind for 2021 ish. Covid had played it, played its part and probably held you back from some games with the All Blacks. But you made it quite clear in a very. At that time, I closed in space. You made it very clear now in the book so everyone can share with it, but you shared. Look, guys, I've got a goal. My goal is I want to get to a certain cap. I want. That's my goal. I think you wanted to catch up with Richie and be on par with Richie. It was an inspiration to you what he'd done. And you knew that there were certain factors outside of your control. Selection, Covid, lots of other things, but you knew there were certain things within your control and you got clear on your goals and you got after it. How important has goal setting been throughout your career to help you do things like 153 caps?

Yeah. So goal setting for myself has always been massive and it's something I still use now. And I know.

My high school years was probably different to some people because we had a hostel manager who was also the first thing coach. He was massive on goal setting. So he really installed a lot of it in us as rugby players, as hostel students. And he used to make us stand up in front of the whole hostel or the first 15. And the first thing, they used to do this every Friday before a big game, you stand up there and say what your goals were. So you'd have to have two or three goals and if they weren't challenging enough, he'd make you go outside, have a rethink and come back and say what your goals were. And the best thing with that is I'd always wanted to be an All Black. I never thought I'd ever do it. I didn't even think I'd get close. I don't even think I'd play for a man or two. So what he did is he just made these little goals. So just things that were further enough away to be able to say, yep, I can get there, but it's going to take xyz. And after you got to there, then I just reframe it, go again. And all of a sudden it just set me up. And that's something that I've always, always used through my rugby career is, okay, set a week, goal, do this, and it just keep going and going, going. At that stage, there was a lot going on in the world with COVID As we know, competitions were changing, teams were financially under pressure, so I just had to worry about what I could. And that was playing good rugby, making sure off field was sorted with Hannah and the family, and then the rest was actually down to someone else. But I couldn't control it. So that was the, the best thing. I just had to go out there and control what I could and put my best foot forward. And if I got there I knew it'd be an amazing time and a pretty amazing achievement because I was chasing something that no one had done before. And that was what a lot of the things that we talked about in 2010, 2011, even though it was 10 years previously, but it was a nice thing to. To chase. And I tried to enjoy the whole journey of sitting there and didn't want to just count test matches. I wanted to make sure I played to a really high level and make sure that if it was my last one, if I got injured or if I wasn't select again, that I could walk away and be really proud. And that was one of the best things. When I had finished for the All Blacks and finishing my playing career, I walked away and was happy to say, look, I gave it everything I had. There was nothing left to achieve for me because I'd given everything ahead.

I could see that, and everyone can see that now. I watched. I was sitting here in Christchurch on the tv, watching as you went out to become the most cap player. And even saying it, I can feel emotions like it was.

It was.

I was invested. You know, how did it feel for you to actually step on the grass and go, this is it. Geez, I've done it?

Yeah.

Because rugby's a physical sport, you've kind of got to have your head in a certain space. And for me, getting there was one thing, but the other main driver was I wanted to be playing really good rugby. I didn't want to have the. The old feeling of, oh, this is kind of like a nice little token gesture. He's still around, he's playing. Okay. So I wanted to be playing exceptional rugby. And I personally thought I was playing really well. But that's not for me to decide. That's for everyone else to decide, because I didn't want to be the guy that was on the way down. I wanted to be playing as well as I could at that time. And hopefully I was doing that 100.

And, you know, you look at someone who makes the All Blacks once, that's remarkable. Very few humans will ever get to play a test match with the All Blacks. But what's the difference between someone who plays once or twice and those hundred test players that you've, you know, most of them, you know very personally, very well. What is it about them that's unique in terms of how they think about things, how they act, what's. There's been a tiny bit of luck. I'll say 0.01% luck in terms of injuries. Haven't Kicked them out earlier. But what was it that helped them become these 100 test and beyond players?

How long we got? We could talk about this for hours and hours and hours. There's so much that goes into it. But one of the key things is, and I was taught this at school probably because I got into a little bit of trouble, but it's all their mates, their friends, their family, the people that they spending time with. So whether that's on field, off field, in the team environment, normally the guys from now, me looking back and seeing who's achieved that 100 Test match, they've got some really good friends that have done very similar things. So they're almost the average of their five best mates. And I go back to school for myself because I got into a little, little bit of trouble and my five, five best mates were doing the same thing. It wasn't until I got out of that little friend group and it took me a wee while to work out who those people were. And, you know, it wasn't just a simple done go to here, but that's what I look at all, all the guys that have played massive careers and been very successful, normally their mates doing the same thing. So what is expected, what skills and tips and tricks they're picking up, they're picking up from those people. So I think that's one thing that people probably forget about. Yes, there's all those things around a little bit of luck, work ethic, skill level, being able to do it repetitively. There's all those stock standard questions, but I think the one thing people forget is what are their five mates doing and how are they doing it?

I love hearing that. I truly believe in that. In fact, I'm going to have a gig. I was reading through the book and I went, God, Sam and I have something in common about high school. We both got suspended.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm getting sweaty now. Going to get the hard questions, but no, I think it shows that no matter where you are, and when I got suspended, I didn't know the difference between suspension and expulsion. So I thought I was expelled because I didn't know the difference. It was not a real good time. But it's for me now, I look back and go, it was actually an awesome opportunity for me to go, right, what am I doing at school? Am I actually putting my time and energy into something or am I actually just kind of cruising and living off the free ride, having Torto brothers at the school, knowing they've done some awesome things? So it was a really Nice moment for me, but at the time it was a little bit like the Steve Hanson one. Didn't probably enjoy getting in trouble and understanding that it was actually the best thing for me.

Yeah, I get it. I didn't see the benefit in my suspension either. But we're here to tell the story so it's survived.

We're survivors.

I love it. So, family, I want to just spend a bit of time. I'm going to grab the book in a second. There was something I wanted to read out in there. Rugby at this level is all encompassing and it's full on and you're doing season to season. There's very little downtime. What has been the impact both positively and negatively on your family life?

Yeah, both. There's heaps of positives. So, for example, my three kids, they speak a little bit of French just because of the end of my career. We were in playing for section Parois in Po in the southwest of France. So we got to experience something that I never thought we would ever do living in France. My youngest daughter, Penelope, who's three, just turned three, she was in a full French crash. So no English speaking at all. She came home one day and she's like papa for much.

Looking at Hannah like, what's famage? Turns out they've been eating cheese at Kindy, so she got home and wanted cheese instead of saying cheese because she was in the full. So a little memory like that for me actually means the world because she got to experience something amazing. So now cheese at home is called famage, even though we're back speaking English and she, being the youngest, actually calls me papa a little bit more than the other kids call me dad because papa in French is dad. And it's just some of those little things that you see. So something like that's a massive positive. But then obviously the flip side of it missed at a guest, pure guest. 15 to 20 really close friends and family weddings. Because you're away, you're sometimes playing in the same city and your friends and family there going to a wedding, preparing, it might be the night before, but you've got to, you know, prepare for the game. And that can be very challenging because you're missing out on some of those things. And, you know, through the book, hopefully everyone understands. Our family's very close and tight. So that was some of the times. The hardest thing is people would send you a photo of what's going on and you're like, look, I gotta go run out and play a game in an hour's Time. So you kind of just put your phone to the side and deal with what's in front of you and then you catch up with everyone via the phone. And that's one of the best things about technology. Now you can actually see people, you can talk to your kids regularly. But at the same time it, it still hurts when you miss those cool little milestones that they achieve.

100%, definitely. It's yeah. Interesting when you think about the, the idea of trying to balance a high performance sport, operating at the world level and being a dad, being a partner, being a brother and being a son. There's challenges that come with that, but I guess you find a way.

Yep.

And it's interesting, the word sacrifice, when I think, think about you, when I talk to you. I don't think we talk too much about sacrifice because it's a choice that's being made. But there's three, three questions that I always ask. Any players or any individuals that want to achieve big things, that's what do you want? What do you really want? So you want to become an all Black? You want to become 100 plus test all black? How badly do you want it? Geez, that's it. Like I want it so bad. Last question, the most important question. How much are you willing to suffer to get it? And that word, suffering, none of us like it. It's horrible, we resist it. But I find the ones that become the best of the best are willing to suffer. And that could be time away from family. That could be not playing basketball so you could play rugby. It could be traveling the world instead of being here for summer. Do you see any of it as suffering?

Suffering is a word I probably don't use a hell of a lot, but I think one little saying I heard, everything that hurts comes to an end at some stage. And on the rugby field it's normally when you're doing a fitness test or the coach is a bit grumpy and the effort on the field probably hasn't been where it needs to be. So they might be making you do a couple of extra sprints or down ups or whatever it is. And the best thing about that is this thing that's hard at the moment, it's going to get easier at some stage. So essentially just breaking it down into, okay, we've got a fitness session now. We know it's going to go for an hour or two hours or whatever it is and just go, right, what do I need to do right now? There's going to be a little break in it, there's going to be a time where we'll get through it. And it's amazing how hard you can push yourself mentally, physically.

And some of those times you think, okay, there's nothing left, but you just get up again and go again. And it's amazing what you can achieve when you, the person next to you is doing it. The person.

The coach, the trainer, or whoever it is is there to help you. What I found is when you're actually going through those, those hard times, as long as you have an end in sight. So there is a tunnel, you know how long it is, you know when the light will start coming through, you can take people with you. And when I say that, I mean.

Taking Hannah, the kids, parents, team members. And sometimes it's that it's like, hey, guys, after this five week tour, when you get home, you're gonna have an opportunity to do this or if you play really well. And this is where some of my goals came in. I said to Hannah because I needed her to help me because I couldn't do it by myself. So I said to her, if I play three exceptional games in a row, we'll go out and have a really nice dinner and celebrate it. So she was actually holding me accountable because she's like, sam, you played really nice tonight, mate. Great game next week. And then, hey, that's three in a row. Like, then we're going out for dinner rather than getting home and just being like, hey, awesome game. Which means the world. But at the same time, it's just a different way of framing it to go, right, let's do it together. Because she was taking as much joy out of that three week, three games, bang, bang, bang. And then we could go and celebrate. And it was actually a nice thing to make sure we were doing it together. Verse me trying to do my thing, her trying to do hers. And then all of a sudden it clashes and makes it hard.

True partnership. I want to grab the book. Actually, there's something that I underlined towards the end. Talking about Hannah, your beautiful wife and amazing supportive partner. Let's see. Okay.

The most important selection you will make is your partner. I made a good one. There is no way any of this would have been possible without you. Thank you. I love you. That got me up that line. Still, it brings a bit of emotion.

What did Hannah's love and support mean to you throughout your career?

Exactly that there's no way I could have done it without her. And it's really easy when it's just you because Rugby is a selfish sport. It's a selfish occupation because.

The team needs to come first, so you need to come first. So some of the hardest things is when you're walking out the door and the kids are crying, sick, grumpy, whatever. Your wife's the same. You're like, look, I've just got to go. You just got to find a way. And that can be extremely hard. And that's not nice on Hannah. It's not nice on the kids and it's not nice on yourself. But that's what the team expects and that's what you've got to do. So.

Yeah, she's been through the highs, the lows, and the coolest thing is she's been there since my first professional game. So she's ridden the amazing roller coaster of the career that we've shared together.

She's definitely helped me in different ways. There's one thing that we didn't put in the book and she, she brought it up probably the day after. We had to confirm, okay, that's what it is. Send it off, it's done. There's no changing. That's.

Was during COVID So I was captain the All Blacks at the time. But then I had to stay home when the team went to Aussie for the Ruby Championship. Because of the rules, I couldn't fly in. There wasn't enough spots. Penelope had just been born. Richard Mountain was in the same, same, same boat. There was one spot they decided Richie to go as a back was more important and easier to transition onto playing versus myself. But having to pack my bags three times and say to Hannah, hey, I'm going to. Then get to the car, wait for the phone call to say, yep, go, there's a quarantine spot. So we had to say goodbye three times, which was not nice. But when I finally got to meet up with the teams after, I think the team had played six games sitting at home watching. But Hannah goes, look, I know what it was like having to say goodbye to do it so many times, even though the by the fourth time, that was actually the real goodbye. And see, in eight weeks or whatever it was, the team had been away. I think it was 14 weeks in total. But Hannah organized well. She was talking to some of the wives and girlfriends and partners in Christchurch saying, hey, look, Sam's going. Do you want to give him a photo or something? And it just, it was her idea. And I talked to a couple of people about it and it just expanded. So one of the coolest things that she led and I'm not claiming any of it because I. I was just the messenger. I took an extra whole bag of a message from either wives, girlfriends, kids, partners, or parents, and we got to the hotel in the States before the team arrived from Australia. We had the master key. We were in everyone's room, and we put on everyone's bed or on the bedside table, personalized letter photo. Some people snuck in chocolate and things like that. So that was probably one of the things that we didn't put in the book. We forgot about talking about it. But that was Hannah's touch. That wasn't my touch. And for me, that was what I was most nervous about, probably about ever traveling, was losing that bag. So having that bag and getting that to the. The hotel, because I knew how special it would have been for those people. And that just gave the team a big lift, even though they were doing so well with the restrictions that were on the team at that stage. So.

As it says in the book, pretty awesome selection. So happy she sat next to me at Lincoln Uni.

Yeah. That's amazing. It was a first day at uni. That's an incredible story. Love story. She's a beautiful soul. And you're a great partner with. Together, you're a great partnership. A couple of things just. I want to be mindful of your time, but a couple of things I wanted to touch on. You darkened the jersey. And is that the right term I'm using, darkened or.

Yep. No, no, it's. It's spot on.

What does that mean? Because when I read it, I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Is that good or bad? And then I started to think about it. I was like, the black jersey, he darkened it. What did. What did that mean?

So there was a. A commercial out there for a while, and it's something that was in the team before I arrived around. Black is our color, but the greatest compliment you can get as a player is you. You've darkened darkness, darkened our color, being black. And Steve Chu sent that message to me right at the end of my career. I just played 150 games, and he text me and said, hey, congratulations, you have darkened the jersey. And for me, as an all black, as a Kiwi, that was the ultimate compliment because he was there as our CEO when I played my first one. And something that was always said and always will be said is, you know, here's your. Your chance to enhance the legacy. And what you're saying is, make that jersey as black as you can. And as Kiwis, we understand that, but the rest of the world see that as a. A different one because black is normally bad, but for us as Kiwis, that is us. That is our color.

I loved it. I really. I love that, what it meant and that in the sheds. Rugby World cup final, the most recent one.

How did it feel to take that jersey off one last time?

There was a really sticking point for me. Obviously, the final didn't go the way we wanted it to go. We'd always prepared for the worst, but hoping for the best. It didn't happen. Another two points would be exceptional, but you can't change it. Full credit to South Africa. They managed to win three games in a row by one point. So it's stepping back and actually thinking about that, that's an amazing achievement. And to do that at the highest level when it is do or die and the winner takes all being the World Cup. So for me, with the family, with the years of the hard work, sweat, tears, all those things that go into it. Take my. My last jersey off was extremely hard. I was. I think everyone was in their suits and I was still sitting there in my shorts and my jersey. And for me, that was the. The bit because I knew once I took that off, the likelihood of putting it back on was very, very slim. And. And.

The thing it represented for myself was the enjoyment and the absolute privilege I had of representing not only myself and my family, but representing New Zealand as a country and all blacks as a team. So I knew once I took that off, that part of my life was. Was finished. And as I said before, I knew I'd given it everything. There was no second questioning myself. But that moment made it funnel and I just found it hard to do. So I was definitely last changed. They're not.

Thank you for sharing that. It's a big moment and I'm excited to see what you do next. I know you're up on the farm and having fun there, but I believe you know the rugby boots, you've got a couple of pairs just still sitting there, just in case type thing.

Yeah, I couldn't. I couldn't throw them out. I actually went to the. The test in Wellington after we finally got back from France. I got halfway there and opened up my toilet bag and my mouth guard was sitting there. I. I had a wee chuckle to myself and I was like, do I send this to a few of the coaches I know very well, obviously, then I said, no, I can't do it. I can't do it. That's that time is done. But I Actually ran into Jace Ryan, the All Blacks coach, about two hours later. And I saw him, I just started laughing. He's like, why are you laughing? And I explained to them the story, and he thought it was a hell of a joke. So it's still in there. I haven't taken it out yet, but one day I'll take it out. So I think that desire will always be there to play, but my time as a player is finished. Rugby is always going to be there in some shape or form, whether that's with my kids or me helping out or doing some coaching or potentially mentoring. So just working out what that looks.

Like at the moment, you got plenty of time. That's the thing. Two last questions. Number one, how do you want to be remembered as a dad?

As a dad, I kind of. I was thinking about this the other day a little bit. I had been accused of being a deep thinker at times, but what is. What is my role as a father? It's to set them up and to be successful in their lives. So hopefully my three kids will say that that's what not only myself, but also Hannah have done, set them up to be successful. And at times, that's hard because you want to be the best mates, but sometimes it means you've actually got to have that little bit of separation to let them grow and work out who they want to be. So hopefully that.

Is what they say. In time.

I'm sure they will be very intentional with that. Something you and I talk about as fatherhood and we've talked about right from the start when we first met. Something we share a passion of trying to be a good dad and figuring out what that is day by day. Now, before I ask the last question, I just. I want to ask the listener or the viewer to go to the Show Notes right now and order a copy of your incredible book, Samuel Whitelock. View from the second row. Link is in the bio. And if you know someone who is a rugby fanatic, who admires leadership, who wants to look inside the mind of one of the greatest players of all time, then you got to buy the book. It's simply phenomenal. So thank you for sharing that with the world. Samuel, one last question. Why don't you imagine for a moment that you and I are going to fast forward many years into the future. You're highly aware that it's your last day here on earth and a very young person that you love dearly. They come into the room and they say, samuel, how do I go about leading my life? On purpose. What would you say to them?

Yeah, I don't actually know at the moment, which is a really nice space to be because I've probably been so focused on rugby and what I'm doing. But me being me, I couldn't just come in with that answer. I knew that the question was coming up. I've talked to a few people around what they said and listened to your podcast as well. But I think the biggest thing with all of us, look, life is a privilege. So give it everything you got. And whether that's the way you're leading yourself or leading your family or leading a team, whether it's a business, is just get stuck in and give it everything you got because you only get one crack.

Such great advice. I love it. I needed to hear that and I know there's going to be listeners that needed to hear that today. Samuel, I know it's not the last time we'll sit down like this. There's going to be plenty more times. But I just want to say a huge thank you for giving me your space and time, sharing it with everyone today. I want to wish you nothing but the best.

Cheers. Thank you very much. And I'm sure we'll catch up like this with the mic in front of us, but then also just a nice social catch up, which is always good fun.

I'm looking forward to it. Matt, Cheers.

Thank you.

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