What You Don’t Know About The Man Behind NZ Rugby

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You have no use to us on the reggae field at the moment.

Did you ever imagine when you were an All Black that you'd be sitting as a CEO in New Zealand Rugby.

Competition was always something that seemed to come naturally to me. I care deeply about our teams in black winning and continuing to win an incredibly high percentage.

Of course, you did come in right around Covid, which would have brought us challenges.

It was really, really brutal on rugby. We lost.

Over 30, 30 to 40% of our revenue in that first year. We and the world got turned upside down. When I look through Covid, even through Covid, we tried to do an awful lot.

You're a very busy man. The world wants a piece of you every single day it seems. So you went to Cambridge. How did you get there and what was that experience?

My time at Cambridge was like I say, incredibly formative, hugely enjoyable and was something that really opened my mind.

I love the concept of whenever you step down as an All Black, you want to leave the jersey in a better place than you find it. How do you see it being left in a better place?

The work we think we're doing in player welfare and brain and concussion research is frankly world leading. Deal with a critical few, get them.

Right over the importance many.

Yeah. And focus on the things, the fewer things that can have the biggest impact.

Welcome to Lead on Purpose. I'm James Laughlin, former seven time world champion and now international keynote speaker and high performance leadership trainer. Each week I bring you an inspiring leader or expert to help you lead your life and business on purpose. Thanks for helping us be a consistently number one ranked show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. I hope you enjoy today's show.

I'd like to thank NZ Mortgages for sponsoring the Lead on Purpose podcast. You can check them out at nzmortgages.co NZ Today's special guest is going to bring some incredible insights from an organization that books have been written about, movies have been made, documentaries. People follow them fanatically. Other Companies try to model them. And they're a sports organization. That's right, the All Blacks. So the All Blacks are synonymous globally for being one of the greatest teams of all time with a culture that is revered. Now, today I get to sit down with Mark Robertson. Mark is the CEO of New Zealand Rugby. We get to chat about his transition from professional sport, his studies at Cambridge, and then, of course, now sitting at the top of New Zealand rugby, which is arguably at the pinnacle of world sport. So today we're going to chat about community. We're going to chat about how to run a large organization like this and also how to plan thoughtfully for the future to ensure that innovation is at the core of everything that this organization does. I know that you're in for a treat today, so please sit back and enjoy.

Mark, a huge welcome to the Lead On Purpose podcast.

Thank you. Great to be here.

I'm glad to get a bit of time with you. You're a very busy man. The world wants a piece of you every single day. It seems you've got an incredible role, CEO of New Zealand Rugby. And I want to talk a little bit about what that role means to you and what success looks like. But first of all, let's chat a little bit about your history. And when you look at your career, it's phenomenal, your playing career, and then, of course, heading into governance. So if we go back a little bit, what got you into rugby? Where did the passion begin?

Well, I grew up in South Taranaki through the 1970s. So if you picture that, I grew up in the mountain there, Mount Taranaki, and in a little place called Kaponga, which is about 15 minutes drive in from the westernmost point of the north island, in a little place called Opanaki, where I went to high school. So that was my sort of setting as a young person. I have a younger brother. And all of our formative years were spent playing sport, essentially. And back then, the choices were simple. It was, you know, it was rugby in the winter and cricket in the summer and grew up doing the typical things. Farms were very small in Taranaki then, so we're talking 100 acre plots of land and so on. Being home from school of an afternoon, within about 15 or 20 minutes off the bus, we had, you know, a colossal number of people meeting in a paddock or a big back lawn playing a lot of rugby.

Brilliant.

And that's where the passion and drive and the love of the sport grew, really, you know, just from the age I started playing at Sort of four or five years old, both in social, you know, casual settings and in structured club settings. It was just something that I loved being part of. And as I grew up, my love for the sport only grew as I got to understand why it was so good for people, what was so great for our country. And so those, you know, those were. That was my reference point. We didn't have a lot of money. Interest rates through the early 80s were at 18 to 20%.

Mental.

You know, it was a tough time. I remember sitting around, you know, family dining tables and that of lots of families coming together, where people, parents and parents of friends openly talking about how tough things were and all the possible options that were having to be looked at to make things work. So it was a really, you know, tough time. But we had that richness of community and we had sport, you know, every week underpinning everything we did. And so for us as young kids, it didn't really, you know, we didn't really think too much of it, to be honest. We. We had rugby at school, rugby at home and. And rugby at a club on a Saturday. And it formed, I think, amazing traits for people, built great resilience and. And made us think and work over time really hard about being. Being in great teams.

Makes sense. It's interesting you say that, you know, it's about New Zealand and it's part of the culture. Rugby is the culture here. I got a call, I was in Northern Ireland. Obviously Ireland has a big rugby following too. And I got a call from Christchurch, New Zealand. And I was in my mid to late teens, and I was a school saying, look, hey, we want to be the first world champions from New Zealand in piping and drumming. And I was fortunate enough to have been playing pipes and drums and won a few titles. I says, look, how can I help you? Well, we're in New Zealand, 12,000 miles from the UK, and I said to my dad, where's New Zealand? He starts laughing. And all I could think about was the Silver Fern, Jonah Lumu and the All Blacks. And I share this from stage. A lot like that's branding at its best when you don't know anything about a country, but the sport, the sports team, that to me was New Zealand. And I've been here 20 years. And I still would say that sport still is the preeminent thing that brings us all together. It's the one thing we all unite on. Not everyone becomes an All Black. So to me, that would suggest one, you're passionate about sport. And rugby in Particular. But you must have been very competitive too.

Yeah, yeah, I think. Well, you know, we grew up in a. In a family, in a. In a school environment, a community environment where competition was important. Winning and losing was important to us. But I think more deeply than that, doing the best was the most important thing you could do. And we're really fortunate with our parents that they always had high expectations of, of.

Whatever we did, be it, you know, applying ourselves in school or applying ourselves.

You know, on the sports field. And I think the way, you know, they thought and shaped our way of dealing with people as well was really important. You know, turn up and be your best around people, be a good person, be fair minded, be respectful. They were always really, really important things. And actually, from a young age, ironically enough, my. Both my brother and I were sort of.

I guess not coerced, but certainly influenced that we should look more broadly to go and, you know, do things abroad. We should be open to travel to education more widely. And from a very young age, that was sort of, you know, built into us as well, to explore the world and rugby. And I guess education became great vehicles to think about, you know, exploring the world and maybe taking a different path to a traditional sort of farming family of which there's absolutely nothing wrong with, because I've got great friends, you know, all across New Zealand that have done amazing things with their lives, growing on family, farming, businesses, obviously. But now, coming back to your question.

Yeah, Competition was always something that seemed to come naturally to me and all the people I've mixed with in every environment I've been in, be it school or university in the uk, when I was at Cambridge, coming back to the Crusaders, obviously in the All Blacks, that they were the kind of people that I enjoyed being around. I will admit that over time, you learn to be able to turn that gene on and off a little bit better. You know, you learn to. And that's the beauty of sport. You learn to cope with your disappointments. You learn to be able to deal with losing. You learn and have to learn quickly about when you don't get things right. And, you know, the linkages to sport and business in that regard are very, very strong. But no, I was a very, very competitive young person.

Yeah, it seems like it. And I want to talk about the Cambridge thing. I find that fascinating. We get a lot of people that have opinions about athletes and particularly rugby players, and, you know, they might not say they'd be the Cambridge type. You know, they're out there playing rugby and I go, actually no, that's very general. When you look at rugby players, they're some of the most intelligent people, very discerning as well. So you went to Cambridge. How did you get there and what was that experience?

Hey James, here. I wanted to take a quick moment to let you know about something. Look, I get asked to deliver keynotes and workshops for teams and companies all over the world, from London to Antarctica, from America to Australasia, from armies to small businesses to large corporates to sports teams. But I go in and deliver keynotes around the mindset of high performers, around the habits of high performers, about how we navigate change. If you would like me to come and speak to your team or speak at your conference or deliver a bespoke workshop, please get in touch with my team. Carolineyjlochlan.com will be able to help. I'll also make sure that we put that in the show notes.

It was probably one of the greatest experiences of my life and one of the most formative ones. How I got there, I was at Victoria University studying obviously near, near the end of my time there. And there was a Kiwi by the name of Steve Cottrell who actually does a lot of work in the, in the sports industry as well, who had gone to Cambridge himself the year or two previously. And he came back and was doing, was coming around the, the country, just connecting back and through university rugby clubs that he obviously knew well. And he actually talked to a few of us about this opportunity to maybe go to Cambridge and it sort of just planted a seed a little bit. And one thing led to another. I was finishing it at Victoria, I was going back to Taranaki. Not sure what I was going to do really. I wanted to, you know, rugby was just sort of, I think it just turned professional. I had an inkling that if I really applied myself, you know, that I might be able to go a little bit further but had to work hard, knew I needed to do some, find a job and sort of be able to pay the bills. And so going back to Taranaki, being close to home, picking up a couple of part time jobs and playing rugby was, was the next step out of university. And through that time I actually applied to Cambridge and was fortunate enough that by, you know, the end of that year, that was sort of the end of 96, start of 97, I was on a plane and I think straight after the, the NPC finished, I was playing for Taranaki to go to Cambridge. And look, my, you know, some of my best friends still came out of my two years there, some amazing networks that I now have around the world. Some, you know, with regards to this chat we're having, some people gone on to do remarkable things in leadership across business and in sport, for that matter. But it really started to open my mind. You know, you walk into a place where I think the first college was built in the mid-1200s, you know, something like 1260 or 1280.

Pretty special.

Yeah. And you soak up the.

Traditional thing, you know, some of the. I think the highest number of Nobel Prize winners come out of Cambridge. Some of the most remarkable discoveries, you know, that have been made in the history of. Of our being, you know, on earth, when you think of it like that, is. Is quite remarkable. So I had an amazing time sort of, obviously, learning. The. The learning environment was very demanding compared to what I've been used to. And the rugby environment was great, surprisingly good. You know, we had a number of players that went on and played professionally after they were at university. A couple went on and played international rugby as well. We had great success, you know, as it related to our main fixture there was the varsity match against Oxford. I was fortunate to play in two victories there. I mean, the first game, just over 70,000 people at Twickenham. My God, that's amazing. Yeah. And the preparation for that game, you know, again, they announced the team, I think, on the Sunday about 10 days before the game. The captain drives around on his. Rides around on his bicycle and his number one is duck egg, blue blazer. And you meet later on that night at a chain you'll be familiar with, Pizza Express. And the sole purpose is to go there and to eat and drink as much to beat the previous year's bill, you know, and then you spend a whole lot of time sort of socialising and the committee recognises you. And there's different outings. There's a Port a Nut evening at Corpus Christ, which is an amazing old college. And I was thinking, when are we actually going to get into preparing for the match? But, you know, by, you know, with a few days out from the game, obviously probably on the, you know, the Tuesday or Wednesday before the Tuesday game, we were starting to, you know, went down to Twickenham to train and we spent some time really getting into the game. It was just a great experience. So. So now, overall, my time at Cambridge was, yeah, like I say, incredibly formative, hugely enjoyable and was something that really opened my mind to the. To the possibilities of, you know, what I might be able to do with my own career in Time.

I think it's really inspirational, particularly for a lot of youngsters. Gabby Thomas comes to mind as a recent example of that. So goes through Harvard, gets a degree, ends up going to the Olympics recently and winning the gold medal for the 200 meters. That's a great example that you can do. Sport an education alongside. It's not. And.

Or it's like, let's.

We're going to do it together.

Yeah.

So did you ever imagine when you were in all black that you'd be sitting as a CEO New Zealand Rugby?

No.

No.

I mean, I knew. I knew especially as my playing career developed and especially I. I had a lot of injuries. You know, in hindsight, I played five. Five seasons in a row. I played for Taranaki, for Cambridge, for Taranaki, for Cambridge, back to back, and then went and played for Bristol on a contract for sort of a few months before I came back to New Zealand to play for Canterbury. And unfortunately, you know, even though I was young and relatively fit, the body did start to break down. And so, yeah, it was. It's not a regret because I had such a great time. We just didn't know what we didn't know back then as it related to looking after oneself. And we played because we loved the game and we played as much rugby as we possibly could. But when I came back to. To Christchurch, you know, a few injuries started to come up for me. And I think through that time I probably started, not initially, but certainly after two or three bad injuries, I started to think about, well, I'm gonna have to think about what's next for me as a career. And I guess I reflect now I did gravitate towards situations in those team environments where I was really interested in some of the rugby business issues at that time and getting involved in player discussions with the Crusaders or with Canterbury about issues that were going on as the game was sort of getting, you know, familiar with professionalism, of course. And so I think over time, probably two things. One, I was interested in it, but two, I was injured a lot. So the guys sort of said to me, well, you go and deal with that.

You have no use to us on the rugby field at the moment. So I found, through that time, I found that really interesting. And.

By the time I left New Zealand, I went to Japan to play, made a conscious decision at the end of our time in Japan, Nova and I had just brought Hunter into the world, our first child. And it was really a case of, do I come back to New Zealand and probably look to see what opportunities might be involved with sport or rugby or obviously with some of the Cambridge connections and networks, there are opportunities to look at places like Hong Kong and Singapore, obviously that were there were some significant opportunities all back in the UK or Europe. And we both know this from small town Northland. I'm from small town Taranaki and we really wanted our family to grow up in New Zealand and have the kind of experiences we did as young people, have access to beaches, rivers, lakes, all the different sports they could sort of.

Possibly participate in. And that led me back into a path, I guess, where I'm heading with this as sport became something that I sort of engaged with on coming back about what opportunities I could find to work in. And it went from there. But no, not even until that recent year really did I think that being in the position I'm in now would be possible one day.

It's incredible. I just think again, it's an inspiration to a lot of players maybe that are right in their professional careers going, I can carry this on, I can continue to be in sport but go into governance or into leadership. So you were in governance first of all with New Zealand rugby on the board and then stepped into CEO role. How do you feel being in governance can actually help inform a CEO in terms of how they lead and what they should be considering?

Well, they are very different. You know, I often observe being in being in governance is clearly good for thinking strategically and taking a, you know, a wider, longer term view of an organisation. It does fall more naturally to a director's role then sometimes depending on where an organisation is, an executive leadership role. And as often I came onto the New Zealand rugby board at 37 or 38, so I was relatively young. And one of the things I learned quickly though by through my 30s, being involved as CEO of Taranaki Rugby and I started to get into a lot of community organisations because our kids were growing up. So I was involved in sporting, you know, committees and different clubs that they were engaged in helping out. And what I'd sort of observe is that often the aspects of leadership and executive leadership and governance can be well informed by what you do in your communities and how you find opportunities to interact, often through your children, the pathway they take at that age and stage of your life. Because the things you're wrestling with are very similar to the things you wrestle with when you come onto a board or executive role of a larger organisation. There's just often, you know, different number of zeros associated with, you know, the profit and loss line. 100 and so, you know, I learned a lot through those times working in community and volunteer organizations as well. But getting back, you know, more to your question.

Being a director was certainly valuable for me because I sat on the board of World Rugby as well and then started developing a lot of relationships internationally, which when I came into the CEO role were quite critical, especially when through Covid and the world got turned upside down. Having those relationships. Relationships was, was incredibly important. But I guess when I reflect, I was probably at an age and stage then where I think I did a good job just staying in the governance lane. I think if you talk to Steve, who was CEO at the time, I think I, most of the time, you know, I sat back and observed that, that role. Well, but there's no doubting, you know, that coming into the, to the executive role you have a greater ability to help shape organizational culture, organizational vision. You work definitely with the board on strategy, but ultimately it sits with the executive team to be able to execute on strategy. And there's just a whole range of things that come up on a day to day basis that we deal with that I didn't really have full appreciation of sitting on the board. So helpful from a strategic, long term.

Sort of organizational shape and organizational direction perspective. But a lot of things that, you know, I certainly learned quite quickly, remembering I started about three weeks before COVID So timing, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. But then getting into the, getting into the role and understanding all the different moving pieces, I probably didn't have as greater appreciation and, and maybe nor should I have. You know, that wasn't part of, you know, being a director. So, so very different, but certainly.

Certainly helpful in terms of the insights that board at a number of different levels and how you could appreciate the strategic direction of the sport. Having that time on the board.

Yes, huge. I think it's a big advantage in a lot of ways and not a lot of people maybe get to do it that way. So I think it's really unique. And of course you did come in right, right around Covid, which would have brought its challenges. But then you look at what unfolded, you look at how the All Blacks did it, the World Cup. It's fantastic. So from the outside you can see that in your position you receive a lot of questions, a lot of challenges, criticisms, friendly advice. Friendly advice. There we go. That must be difficult. So I wanted to talk to you from a human perspective. How do you deal with that? Because it can get quite vitriolic at times. You've got keyboard warriors doing their Thing and sometimes the media too.

How do you get on with life.

And go home and sit with your wife and have a glass of wine, be with the kids and be present. What's your way of dealing with it all?

Well, I think it's like a lot of things that you, you learn, you get better with it over time.

When I reflect on the time through Covid, you know, I wasn't present, I wasn't around. Sorry, I was at home. But I was in a study, you know, for 18 to 20 hours a day, you know, working through a lot of these things across the game and then internationally with everything that was going on.

And even though, yeah, as I say, I was, I was around home a lot, there was just so much going on. It was really, really brutal on rugby. We lost.

Over 30 to 40% of our revenue in that first year. We had significant restructuring.

We just had an awful lot going on as it related to international club competition. All levels of the game were completely turned upside down. So that was a tough time in terms of being present and family orientated, even though I was around a lot. And the media scrutiny, similarly, I think you just, over time you understand it's part of the role. The media and journalists have got jobs to do. I work really hard at maintaining good relationships with them and I respect the fact they've got to do the job they've got to do. You know, often there are times in the game where we make that easier for them to do jobs where, you know, they're writing about areas were scrutinised or highly speculated sort of issues around the game. But by and large, I think, you know, I've come to terms now with understanding they have a role to play. And I think if you're clear on your purpose as an organization and really clear on the future direction of your sport and where you're going and your people understand that, that you learn to just, to just deal with that and understand that's part of the role.

With my family, definitely it's a constant work on with the family because there are times where undoubtedly you sit in times of more stability and you're able to differentiate your time more easily than others. And it's the times where there's a lot on when you're away from home a lot or there's just a lot going on in a New Zealand context where you have to be able to carve the time out and be, you know, be with your, be with your family. And we, we are getting better. I traditionally take a big a Larger holiday. I try and get most of January off and through the year I get a little bit of time here and there, but we've got. Actually, we've got a week coming up and on the Gold coast later on in October, which we'll definitely try and lock away and I'll try and stay away as much as I can from devices and things, but. But no, we're really close family, we have rituals. Our meal times are really important for us. We make sure there's certain number of weeks, a certain number of days in a week where we're together for meal time. We'll get out and have a little time around walk or time together. Just being close to home where we are, with a little reserve and things and spending time Saturday sport, sport on the weekends is really important. So where at all possible I'll be with the kids and supporting them through that. They play rugby and two boys play rugby, my daughter plays netball. So I love being, you know, part of that and supporting there and. And I think it's not always so much the amount of time you spend, it's. It's the quality of that time, you know, and how you're engaged, as you sort of referred to before. But look, I. I was really fortunate as well to spend a lot of time with the kids when we were younger that. That time we had in Taranaki for the better part of nine or 10 years.

Invested a huge amount of time with him then, so. And Hunter was born, Eldis was born at a time when I was still playing rugby, so a lot of. A lot of time with him when life was a little bit more simple and we had a little bit more time around the family. So I feel like, you know, those early formative years, how we work as a family, standards, expectations, you know, rituals, we got into a pretty good space then and so now certainly got to keep working at it. But it has afforded me the time to be away a little bit and for them to understand that I love them a lot and I care for them to weekly.

I think that's really, really incredible and I do think there's this mum guilt or dad guilt sometimes that we get when we are away and we are doing our thing. But I think there's a price to.

Pay if we give up on our.

Dreams and give up on our careers fully, just to be at home every day and every night. And I think there's something special for our kids to see us chasing our dreams, going after our thing, still being present. And as you say, it's not about how many hours we spend, it's about how we spend those hours. Do the kids get to come and experience some of your work in terms of coming to a game or a trip?

A little bit. A little bit here and there.

You know Nova. So my wife Nova, she's a doctor but she hasn't practiced for some time now. You know, we're thrilled as a family and really lucky that she wanted to be, you know, and loves being a fantastic mum.

Amazing.

And.

So we're getting to a stage now where hopefully she'll be able to take some more time to come and spend some time. When we do a bit of travel with our teams, that's the main opportunity to travel. She got over for a good part of the World cup and we spent some time outside of the tournament environment, which was really, really special as well. And the kids, yeah, there might be opportunities in the near future, but they come to the odd game in New Zealand and things. But I think, you know, I think they, they do benefit, you're right, from just sort of having some of the insights of the things I work through. They've, you know, they don't. You talk about the keyboard warriors and the media and that. I like to think that, you know, that they've not been exposed to too much of that. We've certainly not had any examples through school or anywhere else that, you know, that's been high on the agenda or they've been upset or that's been an issue for them, to be frank.

That's amazing.

So I'm not sure how that's happened. It's sort of. Not by necessarily by good.

But I think, you know, I'd like to think Kiwis.

Are able, even though sometimes we don't see that. In my experience I've been very fortunate that that hasn't impacted on our family life or on my kids upbringing or on Nova's life and.

Long way that continues.

Yeah, yeah, well, you know, it's a game. At the end of the day, it's a game. And.

You asked earlier about my passion and motivation. I feel the luckiest person in the world to have the opportunity. I do. So I care deeply about the game at all, you know, at all levels. I care deeply about our teams in black winning and continuing to win at an incredibly high percentage. I love seeing the opportunities through the pathway and different levels of community sport that our people have, boys and girls in our sport and I see all the amazing opportunities it provides in community and club settings away from the game itself. And every day, you know, we're lucky to be connected to a vision that talks about inspiring and unifying through rugby. And I just can't think of a better. A better vision for an organization to have and be charged with, you know, deep sense of obligation and responsibility, but a huge amount of enjoyment and passion and joy that I get from being, you know, connected with. With a great sport. So.

You know, while that continues, hopefully the family can. Can enjoy those insights that. And the opportunities that Mabel provide while I'm here.

Yeah, I think it's incredible to have.

A job that has such a deep sense of purpose.

And, you know, obviously this is the lead on purpose podcast. We talked a lot of leaders who have purpose, but to me, that's the epitome. You've kind of got the perfect job that lines up with your passions and your interests. I want to think about the jersey for a second, the black jersey. So I love the concept of whenever you step down as an all black, you want to leave the jersey in a better place than you find it. So in the job of CEO, let's say you've got the CEO jersey, how do you see it being left in a better place? What are the things you want to define when you finish? Say, James, I helped do that.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, there are a wide range of things. There really are. If you go back, we talked about vision briefly, go back to our purpose. Our purpose really simply sort of aligns to creating great.

Experiences in the community game. So it's an appealing and accessible sport.

Everything we do in the black jersey enhances, you know, the black jersey and the connection to New Zealand rugby on the. On the world stage and back, back home here in New Zealand. And thirdly, we want to be connected to our fans better than we ever have through all the work we're doing with the establishment of New Zealand rugby commercial so connected to our fans domestically and across the world. So those three things are really clear in our purpose, and we deeply believe in them and think they are ultimately the three simple pillars of our game. Community, professional and black jersey and fans.

So I'd love to think that whenever that time comes, I can turn and say that, you know, we have provided greater experiences, we've continued winning our competitions and everything we do to support winning on the global stage in a really strong state. And I think that the one thing we're really searching for at the moment, which I'd love to be able to say we can do at some stage soon, is to create an overarching financial model that's sustainable in the long term. That allows our strategy and the purpose I described to, to connect in a way that means the allocation of resources right across the game are in the right spot and we can align the game behind, you know, that wider strategy so that we all recognize, you know, what's important in our game. We all can, I guess, across the game and our stakeholders see ourselves in that strategy and we are all aligned in terms of what we have to invest in being important. But ultimately that provides a really sustainable model that can financially work in the future. And that's, you know, that's an area where, right through the course of the game, during the professional era, we haven't quite been able to nail that. And it's not, you know, because people haven't cared about it or haven't had great people right across the game. It's just, it's just the nature sometimes of sporting and non for profit organisations. That's, that's a direction they sort of go in. So we've obviously taken some investment on board to help grow and charge our revenues over the long term. And I think there'll be a time where, you know, sort of, hopefully it can happen in the next 12 to 18 months that we can create that financially sustainable model.

To me, that's very exciting. I mean, if you hit that, it's a complex challenge, but if you can hit that and get that right, the ramifications positively for the next decades will be huge. Yeah, it's massive.

Yeah. So, but, you know, I've probably described that quite simplistically. You know, beneath all of those things, there are, you know, community, black jersey and the fans. There are just lots and loads of exciting, really cool things that would be nice to sit back in a few years and talk about, you know, like we. We're taking on these new markets in Japan with a newly formed MOU recently. So we're getting more and more traction in Japan. We've got lots of exciting ideas sitting there. North America is another area. With the Olympics coming up in 2018 in LA.

Yeah.

And the World cup in 2031 and 2033, can we really make a positive impression in that market? Greater than what's been able to be achieved before? And then you look at the work we're doing. If I come back to community and aspects of the professional game, the work we think we're doing in player welfare and brain and concussion research is frankly world leading, you know, and we need it. Yeah, absolutely. And so how does that then work with a Game that's like I said before, safer, more accessible, still fun, but still got that competitive, physical element. So, you know, I could go on. I love it. I get really passionate about lots of different things sitting, you know, beneath the strategic work we're doing and that really simple purpose. But that probably just gives you a flavour of some of the things we're excited about.

Simplicity is key. I think complexity kills execution at an organizational level. And when you look at some great organizations, say like Apple, for example, their mantra was simplify, simplify, simplify. And the fact that you didn't have 10 strategic objectives that you shared with me, it's three.

Here they are.

And there's lots of things that come under those. That says a lot that you guys are focused on. Hey, this is what's most important and the rest is noise. I think it's fantastic.

Yeah, it's probably taken a bit of time to be fair. You know, we probably came into, you know, when I look through, even through Covid, we tried to do an awful lot. Certainly a reflection we have as an organization is that our teams talk about the critical few. You know, if you talk to Razor or Alan Bunting or Corey, you know, just come back from that amazing seven success, they would also say deal with the critical few, get them right.

Focused over the important many.

Yeah, and focus on the things, the fewer things that can have the biggest impact. And often, as we do, we learn a lot from our on field exploits and this is probably a good example of that. To simplify where the organisation's got to go. It doesn't change the complexity of the stakeholder setting we work in, but the more we can provide simplicity and direction for our stakeholders and partners as well. To your point, that aids to building alignment and momentum that you need to do to be able to continue to evolve. And we're being very clear the game needs to change and we're looking forward to the next phase of the.

I think we all are. It's going to be very exciting. And a couple of things just before we come to wrapping up. You're a leader who's leading an incredible organization the world is watching in. So I imagine your own personal development and growth is ongoing. What do you do? Whether it's reading or listening to shows or do you have a mentor? What do you do to grow?

I've got a couple of coaches that I work with.

One in New Zealand based and one overseas based.

I take opportunities to get through other environments where I can, mainly internationally.

I get to conferences where I can. That I think provide two opportunities, one for growth and learning and development and others to build networks and build connection with people that are thinking in different ways or ways in which I think we need to understand a little bit better. Normally in business or in other sports, very rarely do we do that inside rugby. So getting out and about is really important for us.

Looking at opportunities at the moment to go into other sporting organisations and spend, unfortunately not as long as I'd possibly like, but there's some connections we've got through. Obviously our teams in black and the partnership deals we have down sponsorship would create really interesting opportunities to go into other non rugby sporting and sporting business environments I'm looking forward to. And then, yeah, of course there's, you know, I'm not a, I haven't got any regular, I'm sorry to say, regular podcasts that I.

We'll have to change that.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But I do, you know, I get sent things, I keep an eye on things and certainly.

You know, always enjoy something different to listen to if I'm on a walk, you know, to throw something on and listen to. We're actually at Stanford University recently and actually I'll share this story briefly as an example of sort of short term or development in a very condensed period. So our leader of professional rugby on my exec team, Chris Rendrum, was at Stanford University last year to do a sabbatical and then did a two week strategy program which was fantastic for him and us as it's turned out in terms of the impact it's had back into the organisation. But before going to San Diego, we went up to San Francisco and spent two days there.

One of the people that is connected to providing some executive leadership back into New Zealand rugby, who's based in Silicon Valley, set up two working dinners. So, you know, the first night was sitting with people in.

In private equity and.

AI, no, venture capitalism. And the second night was working with people in AI and design thinking from right across Silicon Valley. So they were two sort of two and a half hour sessions sitting around just chatting about all the different things that they're seeing in their worlds, but then applying them to sport and to rugby in particular. And we had the opportunity to lob in some of the, you know, challenges and opportunities we're seeing and just to hear some of the insights that they were providing from a maybe a relatively uninformed position in terms of their connection to rugby, but just in terms of innovation and creativity. That was a really cool setting to be in.

That's priceless.

Yeah. And Then we spent time through Stanford itself. There were some great connections Chris had made. So we had time around with professors, with people that are alumni to.

From out of New Zealand through Stanford. Anthony Moss, who's the great swimmer who's done some amazing work on the west coast of the States there. Tim Brown through the All Bird story, he's doing some work through Stanford at the moment. So it really got us thinking, not only the opportunities for rugby, but what does it look like for New Zealand Inc. And how we can play our part. The incoming government are very interested in terms of what leadership role sport can play in terms of trade, diplomacy, business, thought leadership in a range of different areas in different parts of the world. And for us at the moment, the United States and especially the west coast of the States is interesting and Japan's obviously interesting. So yeah, I guess those are just a few snippets of the things we can do which not only help charge the organization up about thinking about the future differently, but also provide some great insights to me personally in terms of development.

It's amazing. Yes, it sounds like it's never ending and you're passionate about it as well, which is great. Look, one last question for you. I'd like you to hypothetically fast forward many, many years into the future. You're highly aware that it's your last day here on earth and someone very young comes into the room that you love. Maybe it's a grandchild, great grandchild. And they say, mark, how do I go about leading my life on purpose? What would you say to them?

Leading your life on purpose? Be good to get a heads up on that.

I don't want you to have a heads up.

Now.

Look, if I reflect on what we've chatted about today.

It would be to find something and don't necessarily be in a hurry that you love and you enjoy.

And feel a deep connection to.

As it relates to the career side of things.

You know, cherish your family and your loved ones and spend as much time as you possibly can.

Balancing, you know, nurturing them, working with them.

You know, loving them, spending all the possible time you can with them and strike that right balance, as we just discussed, about searching for your own dreams and being connected to.

Your professional and your personal purpose.

But, you know, be bold, be innovative, be out there searching for new opportunities and take opportunities and look for opportunities in a way that still preserves. I'm presuming I'm talking to a Kiwi or someone close to me that the humility that it is.

To be a Kiwi and to be a New Zealander, it's great to be bold and innovative and really aspirational. But always prefer, preserve that sense of care, that sense of humility, because in the long run, that'll serve you you better as a person and as a professional than being anything too shiny and bold, by the contrary. Look, I could go on and on probably, but I think, you know, at the core for me is do the things you love, be with the people you love a lot and, and strike that right balance between, you know, getting after things but staying connected to a relationship. Solid core.

I love that.

Thank you for sharing that. I know that there's a listener or a viewer right now that really needed to hear that. So thanks for everything that you do. Pleasure go well over the next number of years and I appreciate what you.

Do for our country.

It's incredible.

So thanks, James. Good luck and thanks for the opportunity as well.

Absolutely. Pleasure, yeah. Enjoyed it.

I'd like to thank NZ Mortgages for sponsoring the Lead On Purpose podcast. You can check them out at nzmortgages co nz.

Thanks for tuning in today and investing in your own own personal leadership. Please hit that subscribe button and I'd love if you'd leave me a rating and review. I've got some amazing guests lined up for you in the coming weeks and leaders, it's that time to get out there and lead your life on purpose.