Exit The Matrix with Me Experiment: Guest: ETM With Me Week 36: Rollin McCraty - Unlock Abundance with Your Heart

Welcome to Exit the Matrix Stories of Success with your host Jane Slack-Smith, where we celebrate the incredible journeys of individuals who've transcended their limitations and achieved extraordinary success.

Hello, it's Jane Slack-Smith here, and every single time I jump on an interview with someone, I say I'm so excited, and I promised myself today I'm I'm not going to do this. But I have to say, I am completely humbled and truly grateful for this man, the research that he's dedicated his life to in the last 30 years, the organization that he represents, and what this means for not just ourselves in living a life of abundance, but how we can affect the greater community and the greater good of humanity, the Earth, and who knows, even more. So I welcome Rollin. Rollin, how are you? From the HeartMath Institute.

I'm doing great. Great to be here, Jane.

Okay, so let me just put this to those who are watching. If I could give you a magic pill that could connect you to your brain in a way that allows you to have better cognition, to have better insights, to be able to turn up in a better way for your family, for yourself, for your community, to attract your soulmate, to attract your tribe, to affect Earth in a way that can make it a better place, to affect your health, to reduce cholesterol, to reduce glucose, to reduce blood pressure, to improve your whole physiological being and spiritual and energetic being. How much would you pay for that? What if I told you it only takes a few minutes a day, and all of the research that Rollin has done over the 30 years proves every single one of those things? So Rollin Thank you so much for bringing this to the world. And thank you so much for agreeing for this discussion today, 'cause it's gonna go who knows where, but I've got 1,000 questions to ask you. And it all starts with your initial experience in meeting, I guess, the founder of HeartMath Institute, Doc Children, all the way back then, which I understand as an electronics person who kind of like got your, trade in the army and then moved on to creating spirulina company that became like quite a big company, and then a static electrician— electricity inhibiting company, and walking away from all of that to join Doc after one meeting. What was it that affected you during that meeting that has now taken you on this trajectory of your life?

Wow. Okay. Well, okay. So I have to give a little bit of context there. Yes, I was a communication engineer, was my original background. And, you know, in hindsight, following my own intuition, you know, I kind of left that behind and moved to California to get a degree in consciousness studies because I always had a deeper questioning about, well, what is charge? What is a field? You know, and I would always get answers, you know, from professors and colleagues like, well, here's the formula. No, no, no, no, that describes its behavior. I got that. What is it? Right? Nobody could ever answer that. And we still don't really know the answer to that. Anyway, it was, that's what led me into the world of consciousness studies. And so I moved, packed up my stuff and moved to California to get a degree in consciousness. And through that, that's when I got involved in helping bring spirulina into the world. All that. I wasn't the founder of that, but kind of led one of the companies. And then I started a business of my own, another business in electrostatics that you were referring to. And that was very successful, uh, you know, started in a garage, and I think we were doing $15 million a year in our third year or something like that. And, you know, so, um, I won't go into a lot of the detail here, but through some mutual friends, they said, "You got to meet this character, you know, Doc Childre. He was back in East Coast." And I had business back there. So, I said, "I'll go meet this guy. I'm back there anyway. I thought I'd spend an hour or two and, you know, go catch my plane flight." I ended up spending 3 days, if I remember right. And really what motivated me to— well, what really happened in that was more of an energetic exchange. And getting to know him, he really facilitated, you know, and I thought I knew something about consciousness and, you know, the heart and all this stuff. No, I didn't. Not really. And that would be the honest answer to that is there was a facilitated kind of energetic lift into a higher level of consciousness and where I was able to really connect with my own heart and I'm what it really is about at a deeper level. And a lot of answers came very clear to me from early in childhood, actually, experiences I'd had, and about who I am and where I'm from and what I'm supposed to do and all that kind of stuff. So that's the real answer to that question. And so then I started integrating some of what I learned there into my company. You know, I had about 80 employees that reported to me directly, I think, at that time. And, uh, I can honestly say I went more through a personal transformation and growth in 3 or 4 months than I had in years of meditation practices. Not that that wasn't good, and that was all part of the journey.

So this is the thing, right? And we're going to jump into it very soon, what the practices are so that we can understand them. But Was Doc at a level of vibing that was so high that it allowed you to accelerate your kind of understanding stepping into the heart? Or is this something that people can do? Like, you know, do you have to be connected to someone who kind of does that for you?

No, you don't have to. That was my journey.

Yeah. It sounds like it's pretty special.

Yeah. Well, you know, that would not be fair. We all have a heart, right? And we can all learn to access it.

You know, so what brought him to the work? What was his journey to it? Did he have a one event or was there an awakening?

No, I'm not going to tell Doc's story. That would be really for him to do. And I don't want to speak on his behalf. But, you know, I've heard him answer that question, you know, and one of the things he'll often say if people ask him that because they come here and want to meet Doc, you know, He would say, well, I got to it through the school of hard knocks. Right.

So you sold your company, exited quite quickly. You moved into the HeartMath Institute. You're heading up research today. What I'm interested in, has there been a kind of a large progression in the practice? So what is the practice of the HeartMath coherence between heart and brain, what is that to start with? And then has it changed over the years or is it just the understanding of what it does?

I mean, the tools, techniques as we call them, the technologies have certainly all evolved over the years. I'd say the energetic essence of them and the initial understanding, no, that hasn't changed. And I mean, I actually, avoid, if it might be the right word here, just throwing out a technique without context. And the reason for that is people will say, well, that's too simple, or I already do that.

Yeah.

And then we yell, but no, you don't. Not really. Um, you know, I've been there, done that through all these phases.

So yeah. Well, and then I think that's the thing is that, I mean, as as our human brain is there and protecting us, and there is a guard against, you know, information that may hurt us, often there's information that seems so simple and so intuitively right that we have this kind of barrier against it. And, you know, I know speaking to a lot of people, if the answer is very simple, then they overcomplex it and make it difficult and get in the way of themselves. So if I can just bring back to your research and what is coherence, what is being in the heart? Is it the heart as we know it? And what is the basic, I guess the, what do you call it, neurodynamics of this heart-brain connection?

Okay, well, there's a bunch of questions there in one, but let me see how's the best way to answer that. Let me take this tack, if I may. So, like, I'm, you know, psychophysiologist is my current, you know, degrees and all that. And so I've really been looking and studying emotional physiology from a psychophysiology perspective for, I don't know, close to 30 years now and chasing a lot of rabbits down the hole, so to speak, as we understand deeper and deeper levels of this. And what I think is best is we have to think of emotions as a system. And I've actually learned in recent months that a lot of people don't realize that. I mean, I've always sort of thought— I'm a systems engineer by training, so I think that way. But no, and there's 3 primary components to that system, each extremely complex in its own right. That all interact, right? So the first would be the biochemical, hormonal and peptides and hormones and neurotransmitters, that whole biochemical system. And you might remember, I actually knew her, just to give you an example, a lady named Candace Pert. She kind of got famous for discovering some peptide hormones and wrote a book called The Molecules of Emotion.

Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. Anyway, so At one level, she's right. I had these conversations with her back before she passed away. But emotions is all about the biochemistry, and it is an amazingly complex system. It's true.

What's the difference between emotions and feelings? Is one like the biochemistry?

I need to finish this or we're gonna just—

Right, right, right. Okay.

I'll never get a coherent thought out. That's okay. I mean, we can come back to that. Okay, so I would just say, Candace, yeah, you're right. However, if you talk to a psychophysiologist, somebody like me or a neuroscientist, they're like, sure, that's cute, Candace, and you know, in that community, but what about the changes in our brain and nervous system activity that precede and really give rise to and cause changes in all the biochemistry? That's also, that would be the second part of that system, emotional system. Then there's a third part, and this would be less acknowledged or less understood, and I call it the energetic system. And I know from reading some of your questions that this is kind of where you want to get to. And through more, as we become more self-aware, you can actually start to feel and experience, have your own experience of whether you call it an emotion or a feeling, and we can slice and dice that later, but, that they happened there first. You can actually sort of develop the feeling of it. Then those changes, now we're starting to be able to even measure that level.

Right.

Okay. So it's really these three systems that are interacting, but usually it's the energetic level first, then that leads to changes that we can measure in the brain and nervous system, then the biochemistry. Of course, you can do something biochemically, take a drug, right? Or something that You know, but you get the kind of the drift. Now here's the thing.

Yeah.

The emotional system can either be set in motion, activated, driven by either the mind and its current operating system, or in this case, and we'll say more, I'll talk more about what I mean by this, or the heart. Okay, now the problem that most people have, I would say, facing humanity is that the emotional system is being solely driven by the mind. Okay. Now you already alluded to this, and I'm going to say the biggest source of stress, dysfunction, lack of happiness, fulfillment, purpose in people's lives is that lack of alignment between the heart and mind, the heart, mind, and emotions.

Right.

You get kind of what I'm trying to say here.

So absolutely, absolutely.

The mind is used to getting, having its way.

Yeah, it takes over and it tells the messages of what the emotion is and dictates that, which then has the physical effect on us.

Yeah. And it's another important part of this story is that It's the emotional system, physiologically speaking, what goes on in our body that runs the show. Okay. Now this is so easy to prove, Jane, and here in, well, you can't see it, but in our labs, we can have you wired up to all the stuff that we measure, you know, whether it's brainwaves and electrocardiograms and skin conductance and hormones and immune markers and et cetera, et cetera. And, you know, have you thinking and doing serial subtractions and all this kind of stuff that we do to supposedly stress or, you know, cognitive workload and things. Yeah, you can make certain changes, but they are trivial compared to when you activate an emotion.

From the heart?

Well, no, you just activate an emotion. Doesn't have to be from the heart. You get frustrated because you can't do serial subtractions well, you know, or it gets, you know, it can be. All right. So then you see big changes, blood pressure, hormones, activity in our brain and nervous system. So emotions is really the driver of This is my main point here. So when the emotional system is being driven by the mind, which wants its way, and it has its tools to keep us locked into its, I'll say, dimension of intelligence for right now, until it gets a new, until it gets an upgraded operating system. You know, it's got great tools, comparisons, judgment, blame, right? Which then source out to many other things that keep us locked in a certain awareness level or type of level of consciousness. Okay? So that when we're in a constant flow of that, which most people live their lives in, that's driving the physiological changes, which then play out in different health conditions, challenges. Right?

So you've done this research with Max and you are showing that an emotion can trigger a hormone in the body or trigger a thousand.

Oh, thousands. Not just a hormone, thousands. I mean, just being, I mean, this is nothing new. Here. I mean, in a book that I read 20 years ago, they had mapped out how just being in triggering an emotion just for a few, even a minute or two sets in the cascade of at least 1,400 biochemical changes. So there's nothing new here.

That's a negative emotion, isn't it? Is it the same for a positive?

No, it's the same, but, well, it's not the same. You set in motion the biochemistry, but if you're feeling something like frustration or impatience, right? Anxiety, especially in today's world, overwhelmed, you're driving that, you can, you see different changes in our neural brain nervous system and then the outplay of that in different biochemistry. Now the biochemicals that get activated are very different if you're feeling one of those emotions, you know, frustration and so on, versus you're feeling compassion or kindness or love. Right? So that also sets in motion a host of neural and biochemical changes. But one set of biochemistry is utilizing energy, right? Or draining, I just call it, you know, depleting, draining emotions, not saying good or bad, where the other are more renewing, they're more health-giving, you know. One, you know, or you can say it this way, one sets the biochemistry of rapid aging, The other sets in the biochemistry of healthy aging.

So with this, my understanding is if you have this kind of effect, let's say a negative emotion and it affects your body, it can last for hours. Is it as simple as changing the focus to a positive emotion to override that effect?

Well, sort of. Yes and no. I mean, you are right. Get frustrated or something, even for a short period, you pulse the system with, you know, everybody picks on cortisol, I'll pick on it too here. Because it is a very, in the hierarchy of the biochemistry, it's very high up. And so if you put more cortisol, pump more cortisol into the system, which is not a bad hormone, we want it, we need cortisol, it's kind of the master top of the food chain of energy metabolism, then that sets in motion just really thousands of other changes that then result from that. I won't go into all the things, but you know, you're metabolizing energy, right? So now that—

I'm particularly interested in this because I had very high cortisol for 10 years and no one knew what it was. And it turns out it was a tumor on the pituitary gland, which I had removed. So 10 years of constant high cortisol and they said I'd have less energy afterwards, but I haven't proven that right in the last 6 years.

Well, good for you, good for you. Yeah. So I don't wanna pick on any of the hormone here. So your question was, I—

The question is, can you replace quickly that negative effect with the positive?

Oh, well, here's what I was trying to, where I was getting at earlier. You know, when, if you, as we become more aware at the energetic level, we get triggered. Let's say somebody cuts us off in traffic or I don't know, looks at us sideways in a staff meeting or what, you know, whatever. You know, that triggers. Once we— it's much easier once you become more self-aware of at that level to turn those around.

Right.

Right. To have— if you kind of look at it like we have an inner knob, control knob, we have an inner control panel that we can tune and have a lot more choice in our own emotional diet and responses than most people understand because they haven't been taught how. But we all have that capacity. It just takes some practice. So if you change it at the energetic level, right, maybe you're feeling impatient in traffic jam. Well, that's not gonna make the traffic move any faster, right? I mean, our own logic can know that. All we're doing by getting impatient and frustrated is flooding the system with, you know, the biochemistry of aging, right? It also blocks, you know, higher cognitive functions. So we can turn that around and maybe turn that into just patience. The frequency of people.

Of course, what a gift. I have time to listen to a podcast.

Well, right, exactly. But you see what I mean? So we just have to learn, first of all, we have an inner control panel and how to access it and how to change the dials. It's really what the work is about at one level. So I hope I'm answering your question a bit.

Absolutely. I mean, we've gone from the fact that the brain seems to be triggering most of these emotions and it can have a physiological effect on you. Even to fasten up aging. But it then can also be in a way that it allows you to have a consciously— not working from the subconscious, consciously making a choice of having awareness in any moment and going, how, how am I turning up at this moment? And changing that.

Well, right. But it's important to know here, maybe for some listeners, I am not talking about repressing. No, never works. Always reestablishes it. Or ignoring or denying, because that doesn't work either. It's really becoming more aware of what's going on in our energetic system and learning how to shift the literal frequency and then the play out of that, of those emotions.

Okay, so let's just go back to the person sitting in the car. They're really frustrated. They finally get home, they walk in the door, and they're full of this kind of impatience, anger, they're late, dinner's not on, kids are, you have to deal with the kids. Is that affecting the household as well?

Yeah, of course it is.

People can pick up on that? Like, how are we picking up on that?

I mean, that's kind of a silly question, Jane, come on.

I want you to, I'm leading you down to tell me about how we're projecting what we're feeling to others.

I know, I know where you're wanting to go. I think I do. But I mean, if somebody, you're having a, you know, a nice— You're having a nice conversation with somebody or a group of friends and somebody comes in all upset and angry and they want you to know it and you feel that way too. Of course it's affecting the dynamics. But I think you're really asking me about a subtler level. Okay, so, all right, now I'm gonna have to shift gears a little bit here to answer that one. Okay, when we put electrodes on the body, put them across the chest to measure the electrocardiogram, right? Or we stick them on your head to measure brainwaves, the electroencephalograph, it's called, right? What those electrodes are measuring is the flow of electrical current.

Mm-hmm.

It's what they measure, right? You've probably heard me talk about this before. So that's all they measure.

Mm-hmm.

Right? But it's called the electro— and that's why it's called the electrocardiogram or encephalogram is 'cause you're measuring electricity. Okay. So whenever, with that understanding, whenever you have a flow of electrical current, and this is Science 101, you create a magnetic field. Right? Well, one of the qualities of magnetic fields is they go through things. And I'm sure you've probably, I know you've read some of my stuff and watched some stuff, but this is why cell phones work indoors for the listeners here. Right? It's the magnetic field that's going through the walls and the windows. And that field is carrying information, your text message, your voice, whatever it is that you're choosing to send from your device to the cell tower, and then it, you know, goes somewhere around the world. Well, physiology beat us to all this, because when the heart beats or we have brainwaves vibrating away, oscillating away. Those current flows are creating magnetic fields which easily penetrate through the skin out into the space around us. Now, the heartbeat, the electrocardiogram, is measured in what's called millivolts. Brain waves are measured in microvolts. The reason I'm just saying that, that's, you know, the difference. It's a whole order of magnitude bigger, the heart than the brain, right? So 100 times and So the magnetic fields produced by these systems are also much bigger because there's a direct relationship. So now to measure the fields I'm talking about, they're actually magnetic fields. The electrodes do not see that. You use a different instrument and that's called a magnetometer, right? And the larger hospitals actually have what are called MCGs, which stands for magnetocardiogram. You never touch the body. Sensors are outside the body around you here, and you measure these fields. Now, you can back up that sensor, you know, just for the heck of it, see how far away can I get and still detect the heartbeat. And it's around 3 feet. A brainwave, it's about an inch. Now, that doesn't mean the field only goes 3 feet or an inch. It's just the sensitivity of the instruments. It goes, we know, much farther. Than that. What we were able to show, this is going back to the 1990s and in our research here, that in fact, this is where my communication engineer training came in handy, direct from Motorola. So, using the same type of techniques we use to decode the information being carried by a radio wave, whether it's your cell phone or radio station or whatever, TV, whatever, you can actually decode and look at that vibrational, it's in the form of vibrations. You do that to the magnetic field of the heart and lo and behold, we could pretty easily tell what somebody's emotional state was by the information being carried by the field. So I just go with it.

Specifically the emotion or just positive versus completely?

No, no, no, specifically because that'll lead us down another rabbit hole. But so there is a direct relationship, mathematical relationship between these vibrational information patterns, I like to call them, being carried by the field and the rhythm of the heart, the information the heart's beating out. So you don't need these expensive magnetometers once you understand this to know what that information is. And to answer your question, yes, anxiety looks different than anger, you know, which looks different than impatience. But then there's a whole category of difference when you're, if you're feeling something like love or compassion or kindness or gratitude and appreciation, these types of emotions. So they do have their own specific signature. It's just kind of generally the same, but also specific different differences for different people to a certain degree as well. But the point here is, is that we're broadcasting Well, let me say it this way, Jane, what we feel inside doesn't stop at the skin. We are broadcasting it. We're literally radiating it like transmitters, you know, like TV, radio transmitters. So that was pretty interesting. And then, but the next question was, well, okay, so what? I mean, that's neat.

Nice.

But so long story short, and this actually wasn't that hard to do. We're able to show that our nervous systems are also like receiving it, like antennas, right? So that we're specifically tuned to the fields generated by other people, other biologically generated fields, kind of like little windows that we're tuned into that information. So we're able to show that whatever one person's broadcasting in their field, the information, it can be picked up or is being picked up by another person's nervous system and leads to measurable changes in their body and nervous system. Now, this shouldn't be that surprising.

And it's surprising we can measure it. That's what surprises me, is that we kind of know it, but it's the measuring.

What we really did here was add science and scientific understanding to what most people already know and experience. Right? I mean, we have sayings in our language, for God's sakes, right? You know, even before you walk into a room, even before you catch body language cues or tones of voice, you can feel something. Man, the tension's thick in here, right?

Or sometimes communication where people are saying something and you're like, that feels odd. Like whatever the energy they're putting out is not what they're saying. And you're thinking, that just didn't sit well with me.

Yeah, absolutely. This is, in fact, this is one of the biggest, I would suggest one of the biggest problem, well, issues in poor communication or communication glitches, which lead to all kinds of mistakes, right? Whether it's medical errors or in business where somebody's saying one thing, but their emotional system is feeling, radiating something else and there's a mismatch. Because most people aren't consciously aware until they do some training, of this, the information in the field from other people. But our unconscious is. So that field level, this energetic exchange, information exchange, is still biasing perception. And we are still detecting it, although we maybe can't put words on it. You know, for some reason I just didn't really like that person, just didn't trust them. Or God, it felt really good to be around her or him. Or, you know, is that—

so it's a nervous system is picking up as an antenna this information from other people. And then we have, like, I would say, the gut feel, the intuition, or something that, that is then the next level to that. Is that how that—

okay. All right. So, okay. Now, if we're gonna go there, we can take another leap. And talk about intuition.

My wormhole, we're all in.

Okay.

Hello, just a quick message. I hope you're enjoying this podcast bonus session. Now, if you have heard this interview, then you're probably sitting in there going, what is this all about? Well, this is all about my Exit the Matrix experiment. Now, I decided to write a book because I'm really interested in how do we go from the existence that we have now to exiting the matrix and living with intention from our hearts, following our heart's desires, but also creating abundance in all areas of our lives. And hence, whilst I've been researching this book, I thought, this is a really solitary journey. I want people to come on this journey with me. And hence, I've got this very special group. Now come and join me. The first month for founders is free. And if you decide to stay, fantastic. So what I'm doing is I'm interviewing incredible people. I'm getting insights about what's this awakening that people are getting, you know, what's this, the exit the matrix kind of sliding door moment for them. Now, I've obviously run this podcast for over a year now, and I have more than 30 stories, but I'm also interested in those people who are in this transformational space who are actually not just awakening themselves, and they're awakening others. What is the mechanism? As Bashar talks about it, it's the permission slip. Are they going through astrology or meditation or yoga or breathwork? Are they just going within and getting a sense of what's really going on? So that's what all the Exit the Matrix experience is about. I'm going to let you get back to the interview, but if you want to join me, go to exitthematrix.today/ ETM with me, which stands for Exit the Matrix with me. So that's exitthematrix.today/etmwithme. Sign up. I'd love for you to come along. I'm creating courses. There's currently courses in there around 4D gratitude. There's more courses to come. I'm creating custom GPTs on how you can exit the matrix and helping you uncover what lies beneath your subconscious and holding you back, and also other custom GPTs that I'm sure you're going to love. And most of the speakers are actually really motivating me. So I'm creating courses, I'm creating ebooks, I'm creating experiments you can try, I'm creating tools that you can use, and I'm also writing a book. So at some stage I'll get to writing the book. At this moment, it's just all about the research, and I hope you choose to join me because I'm really excited about this experiment. So I'll get back to the interview now. Enjoy yourself. And as always, here's to your success.

All right. So I saw this was one of your questions anyway. In our research, not just ours, and lots of other people who do this kind of work, research, that I would suggest we have 3 different types of intuition. So we have to start there to answer your question. So the first type I think it's important for, if people get the context, it's easier to kind of understand what we're talking about here. So the first type is called implicit knowledge. And so this is the type of intuition where we have learned something and forgot we learned it, or didn't, maybe we didn't even know we were learning it. You know, just watching things, you know, seeing it on TV here or there, but you know, it's all going in and—

Watching our parents when we're below the age of 7 picking up everything.

Or any time. It could have been last week. Doesn't matter. The point here is, implicit means a type of information we don't have conscious access to. Okay? And we encounter a situation or a problem or a challenge. And the brain is, I don't want to get too deep here because we spend a whole hour just doing, it's called dual process theory in some scientific literature. But Basically, there's the fast channel where the brain is pattern matching to these unconscious implicit things. And we have the aha, you know, the intuition on how to solve the problem.

It's just going into its box of knowledge and going, what do I have seen before? What do I know? And that gives you—

Yeah, but it's all unconscious. Now here's, I'll give you, there's many, many examples, but I'll give you a common or a classic one. And that is a nurse who's been around for a while on the job and she can walk into a patient's room and goes up that they're in trouble. They're probably gonna code within the next few minutes or hour.

Yep.

Your nurse standing next to her goes, how do you know that? The older nurse says, I don't know, I just know it. Okay. And she's usually right.

I, I've had this experience. I worked in underground coal mines and the men would say to me every now and then, I'd move if I was you. And I would just like, I'd do whatever they'd say. And you'd move and then 2.5 tons of rock falls down and they go, yeah, that's just how it is. And I'm like, thank you. Fill me in next time you feel that feeling.

Yeah. Okay. So that, so in other words, expert knowledge. Now this is kind of the safe type of intuition to study in academia.

Mm-hmm.

Because it's all about the brain and, and, you know, unconscious memories that you're pattern matching to. And there's, I, back when we first published this, some of our research on this in the late 1990s, I think I read about 40 books on intuition and they were all this type. Of intuition. Okay. In a lot of the papers. Now there's a second type I call energetic sensitivity. Now this is getting towards answering the question that you asked a few minutes ago. This type of intuition is our nervous system's capacity to detect and respond in a meaningful way to real signals from the environment. Another person's heart field carrying emotional information could be one of those. And there's actually even been studies on this aspect. If you ever feel like somebody's staring at you, turn around, sure enough, they're staring at you. I have a couple of friends who feel earthquakes coming, right? We now know we can measure changes, and this is very solid science, in the Earth's magnetic field environment that precede earthquakes. And another little of our research, we've published quite a bit on this, Absolutely no question that our nervous system is tuned into and affected by external magnetic fields, the fields of the Earth we live in.

I don't get headaches very often, but the only time I get a headache is before a huge barometric change. So from high to low, I'm like, oh, there must be a change of weather coming, significant one.

That's similar, right? But it's real changes in the environment. I'm more talking energetic, but that works too. That the body's learned, you know, and knows to respond to. And okay, so then the third type we call, I just call it non-local intuition. And this is the type of intuitions that you can't explain away by the other two types. Usually something to do in the future or at great distances. Because many, many examples of this as well. That can be moms, mothers who know their kids are up to, you know, doing stuff they shouldn't be doing or in harm's way and they're on maybe on the other side of town or on the other side of the planet. Distance doesn't seem to matter. Or somebody you haven't thought of, you know, could have been a childhood friend, an old coworker, haven't thought of them in years and their name pops into your consciousness, your thoughts, and you get a phone call or a letter from them in the next day or so. I mean, these are experiences everybody has. We tend to write them off and, oh, it's just a, you know, a coincidence. But no, if you start really paying attention, there's something much deeper here than a random, random chance. And so that's a lot of the science that we do. Like on the energetic sensitivity, we've got pretty good science now that explains that, that our nervous systems. And on the non-local intuition part, The one of the things we hear, can I, can I, can I just interrupt there? Sure.

Because you did say that there's a two-way, like we project and then we pick up as an antenna. And I'm hearing now how we're picking up this non-local type of intuition. You know, I know having, having, you know, grown up Catholic with a mother who's like, I know you're going to an exam and, or I know you're about to do a big something or other, I'm sending you energy. Or I'm going to pray for you, or whatever that is. So it is a two-way street. We can send— and is that, is that a proven research thing that's been done?

Yeah, I would say more and more so, yes. Um, and we can get— we can go down that, or I can finish talking about non-local intuition first.

But yeah, I was just, I was just wondering, was it two-way? But yeah, good.

Yeah, yeah. And there's some really neat new research that supports that idea. Okay, so non-local intuition. There's a lot that we can put in that bucket or that category. The, one of the things we hear most from people who learn the HeartMath practices, you know, the different techniques, or especially if they use the heart rhythm, what's called heart rhythm coherence feedback technology to really practice getting their physiology into this optimal state of heart coherence, that if they do that a little while, that, and we've heard this so many times still to this day, that they are saying, look, my intuition is on steroids. This is different. This is not subtle, right? Like there's an inner voice that's come online here that, you know, and then usually the second thing they talk about is, and synchronicities have become a way of life. There's just a different flow now. Through life and the challenges, you know. So that— and I can— my own experience and many others here, the founders of HeartMath, can say the same thing. But that motivated us to design some actually very rigorous laboratory-based research around this question of non-local intuition. Now, I'm not going to go into all the gory details because that would drive most people crazy if I did that. Don't care about all that. But so, but basically we got people's brainwaves and heart rhythms and heartbeats and skin conductance, these types of physiological measures. And we developed several protocols over the years, but the first one was you're sitting at a computer screen kind of like we are now, you know, we're measuring all this stuff, right? And then at some point an image comes up on the screen It could either be a really yucky picture like a snake striking out at the screen at you, or, you know, a bad guy with a knife and a woman, you know, scary stuff. Or it would be nature scenes and bunny rabbits and, you know, things like that. And this is done in a way that there's, it's impossible to cognitively guess what the image in the future is going to be. So when we look at that data before you see the image, What we find is that there is a physiological response that accurately predicts the future picture. Okay? The first part of the body to get that signal, wherever that comes from, from now, we can go there in the next if you want, is the heart. The heart then sends, now this is important what I'm about to say, the heart then sends a measurably different neural signal to the brain brain, then you see a brain response sometime later after the heart sends a signal, then the body response, like the gut or the hair on the back of your neck. So the gut gets the credit. You know, we say gut feelings or the hair on my arm, but it's really heart, brain, then body. And if you're paying attention to the body, you feel that feeling, whether it's good or bad about what the the future event is. Okay. So the way I got that published—

because I was pretty impressed in seeing studies that said the brain picked up before the image. I didn't realize the heart came first.

Heart comes first.

And it's measurable. Like, it's the heart change.

This has been repeated. Yeah, this has been repeated multiple times, even by other independent labs. So this is Wow.

Okay. All right. So the heart knows.

Yeah, the heart knows. That's in our language too, right? Ask your heart. The heart always knows. Put your heart into it. Play with heart. Right.

So the gateway to intuition is the heart.

Yeah. Well, okay. Remember, there's 3 types.

Yeah.

Yeah. Even in the non— so I wish I could come up with better terminology because within the non-local category is what I'm talking about. Now. So what— let me just tell you how I got that published, and then I'll tell you what I really mean. Um, this is back in the late '90s when we started publishing that line of research. Early 2000s, we published quite a few studies on it. I was talking about how the heart appears to have access to a field of information outside the boundaries of time and space. Okay, perfectly acceptable language in that era, that time, because non-locality and entanglement had all been experimentally proven, but not only at the level of subatomic particles at that time. That's no longer the case. It's now been way proven in macromolecules and groups and all kinds of stuff.

So is it just pulling— that's just the quantum physics science has kind of caught up to what the heart's doing?

Well, maybe not fully caught up yet, but But yeah, at least that. So what, you know, I used to ask the question, what is a field of information outside the boundaries of time and space in this context? Yeah, I kind of quit asking that because it surprised me, uh, the answers I would get, which were nowhere close to what I was hoping people would intuitively understand. So what, what I'm really suggesting here, I'm going to take what could be a much longer discussion and cut through to say it this way. What this suggests is we have two hearts, the physical heart and the energetic heart, what I call the energetic heart. It's also been called the spiritual heart in a lot of other traditions for a very long time. So I'm just suggesting that we are multidimensional beings, have an energetic system, I've kind of already alluded to that, and the heart is the conductor, the coordinator of the energetic system, the energetic heart. Now the energetic heart is a very complex system. It's very real, real structure, just at an energetic level. And it serves as the bridge to that higher dimensional part of ourself. Now a lot of people would call that your higher self. Oh. We just call it your soul, your spirit, you know, if you're religious, the God within, whatever. Here at HeartMath, we just call it your larger self to kind of take it out of, you know, religious or New Age kind of concept.

But it's still linked to you. It's not like a greater consciousness.

It's you. It's part— yeah, David Bohm said it well. It's your undivided wholeness. It's not some external being. It's you. It is the higher dimensional part of you that actually has the blueprint for you and who you are, whoever you are, your beingness, your purpose.

You're not searching for other or outside of yourself. You're actually just searching for a connection to the true, fulfilled, complete self.

Yeah. Of you and who you are. Yeah.

And even remembering who you are, because I guess over time—

because the mind dimension doesn't have access to that level of intelligence. And that earlier I said the emotional system is set in motion by either the mind or the heart. Now this is bringing it full circle to what I mean by the heart in this case. So it takes a higher, well, I could say it this way, a higher intelligence system to finally bring the mind and emotions into alignment with who we really are at the deeper, higher dimensional level of our who we are. But the mind doesn't, has to forget that, right? That's part of the deal, you know.

So when you say beyond all time and space, and we're talking non-local, and we're talking connecting to others, we're talking about connecting to others, future, past, time's collapsed. It's like there is a, a inner knowing of connection to the higher sense of yourself through all time and space, and that's where the insights come from. Like a future you could already have the answer, and that's what you're tapping into. Is that what I'm hearing?

Yeah, kind of, yes. I wouldn't totally disagree with what you're saying. I think of it like this, that at our larger self level, it is outside the typical time and space boundaries, but it's also another higher vibration of who we are in awareness. It gets to see kind of like the helicopter view that can understand the probabilities of the actions we're taking in the here and now, how that's going to affect the future. You know, and at that level, yes, you have easy telepathic communication with other beings, other energy units, right? You know, if you want to think of it that way. It's just operating in a different frequency domain, another dimension of intelligence. So as we get more, as we practice these skills of getting more coherent, And by the way, what really takes us into more coherent than what I've learned is the fastest direct pathway is to activate one of the frequencies of the love spectrum. That's the straight line. And now what I mean by that, you know, if you think of love as a musical octave with different notes, right? So compassion would be a very high frequency in that spectrum. Kindness, right? Patience. Right. Heart vulnerability, appreciation, gratitude.

This kind of spectrum— I'm sorry, does this correlate to David Hawkins' kind of spectrum?

No. And I know Hawkins' work and basically his idea of scales of development. That's fine. But the numbers he puts with them, that's just made up stuff. Yeah.

That's just a function of being able to put a definition or a label on something to describe.

Remember how I was talking about we can measure frequencies and the energetic the magnetic field. Well, you can actually look at the spectrums of them and you start seeing, if I had a slide I could show you, you'd see what appreciation looks very different than anger. These are literal frequency patterns.

So which has the highest frequency? If we were going to drop into our heart and engage in emotion that could elevate us.

One of those, what I call the spectrum of love. So what this really means, just to make this practical, Anytime we extend acts of kindness, right, or we self-regulate ourselves into being more patient instead of impatient, or connecting rather than separating from someone, more caring versus, you know, those are all acts of love. And those are all things that open that channel, those frequencies to our larger self, so that we're now able to bring in that higher dimensional information, which is what finally helps elevate the mind into a new operating system. But it kicks and screams, right? Because it's used to having its way.

Mind.

You mean—

So go on.

Well, no, that's enough.

So I'm kind of looking at how can people live a life of abundance in all aspects of their life in creating the life that they want? And what I'm hearing from you is, you know, there's more signals, I understand, for the parasympathetic, or whatever the connection is, from the heart going to the brain, 90% more than from the brain to the heart. The heart is being proven to be the first in line to be able to have cognitive kind of perception and intuition. If you can be aware of these heightened love emotions and activate the energetic spirit heart heart to your higher self, then you have more abundance, like you can create more. Is there a creation mechanism to this as well, as well as an insight mechanism? Mechanism?

Yeah, I'm going to take my science hat off here to answer that one because, you know, what I'm about to say probably cannot yet prove, but I would also say you can't prove it's not this way.

Yeah. Work in premise for us.

All right. So a couple aspects there. Well, first of all, let's talk about abundance. So a lot of people probably assume you mean dollars when you say that, you know, fancy cars and big houses and all that. And for some people, that may be true. Abundance for a lot of people, that may not be their path. It might be abundance of friends and connection, abundance of love, you know.

Health, spirit.

Yeah, in fact, it's really interesting because a lot of the research on happiness shows that it's not money wealth, it's not the big houses and cars that leads to happiness. In fact, some of those things take away happiness for for a lot of people. It's really interesting when you really look under the hood of that. So I think we have to be careful what we mean by abundance, but a fulfilled life, you know, really good relations, positive relations, loving relationships, knowing that somebody's got your back, these kind of things I think are, for me is, and I've been on both sides of this so I can speak to it. All right, so you're asking about creation. So what if, I'm going to say it this way, we really do live in what's, it's pretty good science for this too, that we live in a holographic universe. And from this perspective, well, even if I don't go there, if I don't go that wide, I mean, a lot of just normal day-to-day thinking and behavior is creating our future. Now this kind of one of my mentors, I'm going to come back to what I really want to say in a second here, but it was a guy named Karl Pribram, really, really famous neuroscientist, considered the father by most people, the father of modern cognitive neuroscience. So many things to his name, like executive function, he coined that term to describe the frontal cortex and the amygdalas and all the stuff he mapped out in his career. And one of the things he talks about in terms of the frontal part of the brain, the frontal cortex, is that gives us this foresight. So the ability to understand how our current thoughts, emotions, and behaviors affect the future. Right? So I'm not gonna go into the neuroscience of that now, but, but just on a practical day-to-day level, As if we don't really have good self-regulation capacity and foresight, right? Not a good idea to yell at the boss if you want to keep your job.

Yeah.

Right? So I mean, yeah, creating the future. Well, I get pissed off and I yell at the boss. Yes, you created your future of getting fired. I mean, is that making sense? I mean, just be—

Absolutely. It makes sense, right?

Yeah. Just practical or not, or you're, You know, you're in debt and doing impulse charges on your credit card when you're on a budget. This is all lack or failures of some sort.

Or eat a lot of chocolate when you're trying to get over diabetes.

Well, exactly. So I mean, there's the kind of practical duh.

Day to day.

That we create. Well, we are really, but in a very, people aren't usually aware and thinking of how we are creating our future. From these simple day-to-day moment-to-moment choices in our thoughts, emotions, which drive physiology or in our behaviors, right? Which affects so many, well, our success. You know, and there's the whole emotional intelligence research and literature that says the same thing I'm saying, the more self-aware we are and able to self-regulate our emotions is directly related to career success and wealth, these types of things. Okay, so there's that kind of, shouldn't be a big stretch for people to grasp that. But I'm saying there is a deeper level as well. And in a way, we're always co-creating our reality in the level we were just talking about, but at another level as well. So remember I talked about how we're higher dimension, we are multidimensional beings. So There is a level by which, at which it is, we are co-creating. Now, this is where connecting with our larger, fully following our intuition, the more we can align with that, that takes us into another level of co-creation. And there's a, from my perspective, Jane Slack-Smith, there's a built-in safety valve here that we're not able to really go into that vibration and consciousness that truly, where we truly become co-creative. Without a certain checkpoint being met to go through that safety valve. And if you think about it, it's really for our own protection in a way, as well as others. So what won't go through that eye of the needle are things like judgments and anger and these lower vibrational frequencies. Because if we were able to really create from that, and in a way we are already at that other level, but What a world, what a mess the world would be. Way worse than it is now. So it's those frequencies of what I call the love spectrum that give us access into that next vibrational level. And that starts downloading from our larger self, an upgrade. The operating system of the mind gets an upgrade to where we become more aware of the way things really work and who we really are. And when that happens, we're now, we start moving and it's not a state thing. It's a, we move into another way of being. We call it heart-based living here at HeartMath, where you're really living from the heart and those, you know, really more following moment to moment, your intuitive guidance from your own larger self. That moves us into a vibration to where we really can start to co-create and interact with this holographic reality. In a new way. That's probably kind of complex and new agey sounding, but it's really not.

I mean, we talk about the WOO, window of opportunity, right? And what I'm hearing from a science-based kind of basis is what we know is where energy goes and flows where we put our intention. And we are the creators of our own reality. But to access the next level of reality, we can only really get there through the heart love spectrum that allows us to operate as measurable on a higher frequency that activates this greater, you know, greater consciousness of us through all time and space, all knowing and being able to create what we want in our lives.

Yeah. You can say it that way.

Why don't we do more of that then, Roland?

Well, yeah, I mean, it's, easier said than done because we have to expend some energy.

We spend a lot of energy in negative thoughts and worrying about lack and what we don't have. Now, I just want to, in our final time together, because we've really talked about, I guess, the biological, the energetic, this understanding that the heart leads the way in so many ways and can affect your physiological physiologically, etc. And, um, I want to look at the collective here because I know that, you know, you're running experiments around the world, you know, the work that you've done with Dr. Joe Dispenza and the latest research that you're doing. I want to know a bit about that and then go to what you're finding with these random number generators as well, because the collective can influence everything, right? So if we could just talk to how— like, I'd love the idea that I could have a sensor and I could pick up the emotions of the people in the room that I want to hang out with. Like, I'd love to see that future. But it sounds like you can almost do that now.

Yeah, it's a sensor technology barrier at this point. But that's not that crazy of an idea. And probably a generation or two from now, it'll be commonplace.

Find your tribe very easily. Find your soulmate very easily on the same heart rhythm. So, so this, um, the Dr. Joe Dispenza, he's, he's been doing a lot of work with you and, and, um, with groups. Because if we take it ourselves from the individual now and how we can affect our own, um, life, and we've talked about being antennas for others, where has that research led you? Or, you know, what's the cutting edge? You know, what are you seeing now? We've talked about the, the work from the '90s and early 2000s.

Okay. So this moves us into, you know, what I would, from my window of view here, what I think of as energetic, global energetic interconnectivity between how are we as humans interconnected with other humans, right? Through these field environments and with the Earth itself. And we have multiple tools in our toolbox for asking that question now. We don't have time to go into all of them, but just a quick overview. We have magnetometer stations all around the Earth that are quite literally measuring the magnetic vibrations of Earth in the magnetic fields. And there's a couple of those that are important. But those rhythms in the Earth's magnetic field, field lines vibrating and these things called Schumann resonances, which are different mechanism, directly overlap human heart rhythm and brainwave frequencies. The same frequency. So we have the basic physics to understand how we can transfer energy and information between us and the fields of the Earth, which become the carrier waves of our thoughts and emotions and so on, and interact with and affect others. And it actually gives us a mechanism to even explain some of the non-local intuition stuff. But that's, you know, that's a whole probably podcast to just go down that path. We also have a project measuring the electrical activity of trees all around the Earth, which have complex rhythms and are very dynamic beings as well. And some really cool stuff coming out of that, that research showing that trees respond if we send love to trees, that we can see and measure how they electrically respond, just for example. Now you mentioned the, random number generators. And that's part of a project called the Global Consciousness Project 2.0. And which is a, there was a GCP1 that is now pretty much no longer, but this is the new version of that that we were asked to take over from the founder of that, a guy named Roger Nelson. And so random number generators, well, that sounds like a complicated thing. Well, and they kind of are, but what they do is really simple. You can think of a random number generator, an RNG for short, as an electronic coin flipper. Right? So if we sit here and flip a bunch of a coin, you know, 1,000 times or whatever, you're gonna get, you know, 50% heads. Yeah. But overall it should be 50-50, right? Of what you get if you have a balanced coin. So an RNG is a very high-tech version of that to do it electronically. But instead of heads or tails, you get 1s or 0s. Okay? And they do it really fast. So let me give it a little bit of history here. So the Dr. Roger Nelson, who was the founder of GCP-1, was at a lab in Princeton where they were studying the, kind of way ahead of their time in a way, but they were looking to look at the effects of human consciousness. Can our consciousness interact with and affect the physical world? Kind of gets to your creativity question in a way. You know, are we able to, or is our consciousness able to regulate, to actually interact with the physical world and change it? So they did a lot of really cool stuff. But what they found was that these RNGs was a really neat system for measuring the effects of consciousness and intention. In other words, you would get meditators or regular people and they would try to, you know, influence these devices to either make more ones or more zeros. Depending upon their intention. And that worked. They found it to be a really good system. That led to the idea of creating a global network of these things to see if something that triggered, that synchronized is a better word, lots of people, kind of mass consciousness, where we're all paying attention to something and probably feeling something very similar at the same time. Now this could be a great tragedy, right? You know, that the media's all focused our attention on, or it could be a big sporting event, right? A World Cup or a Super Bowl, you know, a lot of people that are paying attention and really feeling, having these different emotions. And so what many years of study, what he's found that there is a significant relationship between those events and What's even more amazing than the fact that you can affect an RNG's output is that this global network, and GCP too with, you know, thousands of these things, is what something really happens that shouldn't be able to happen, happens with great precision actually. I mean, statistics are 3 million to 1 odds against chance now. This is, I mean, out of hand. But they start flipping even though these devices are, remember, they're all around the world. And independent, designed to be random and not influenced by, you know, other things. I mean, they're very designed very well to do this, but something connects them and they start flipping ones and zeros at the same time over fairly long time periods sometimes. So this is how we measure the impact of these larger events that I affect humanity.

So, so this is what I'm hearing, just so I can just summarize this so my, my brain can catch up, is that our heartbeat is electricity. We're projecting a magnetic field. This magnetic field of the individual, and we feel like we're separate from everyone. In actual fact, when there is a, you know, a huge devastating effect, or we've just had the Melbourne Cup here, maybe the, the you know, if New Zealand was picking up on things and something, you know, there's big events that are positive or negative, and we feel that when we go to concerts, that we feel this connection, you know, we feel of these things. This electromagnetic field interacts with others, magnifies, and picks up with the electromagnetic field around the Earth. And these random number generators that are 00110110 all start going at the same time, at the same generation that indicates that we're clicking in and we're actually affecting this magnetic field of the Earth.

Well, okay, I got to be a little more precise. It's not all devices start flipping, but a ratio of them above and beyond what could ever happen by chance. Got it. But not all of them exactly, you know, the same. And whether it's magnetically mediated or not is unknown. It— something has to be connecting them right now. It could be electromagnetic, probably not. It's probably something deeper. The, these devices, the way they work, these RNGs, is what— the way we make random numbers. It's very hard to really make random numbers, believe it or not. And to do it, we use a true quantum process. It's called quantum tunneling, and where you force an electron to go through a barrier that it doesn't want to go through. So that's completely unpredictable. It's quantum uncertainty of how many electrons are going to make it, make that jump. So we measure that. That's what we measure to create the randomness. So in other words, it's a true quantum process. So most people involved in this and our scientific teams involved suspect that it is a quantum level phenomena of at a deeper level of interconnection. Now that's not to take away from the magnetic. I think, because that's very real and measurable. So in other words, we're interconnected on more than one level and in more than one way.

And at this stage, we don't know what it is, but we know that there is something that is actually influencing these. And that, I guess, comes to your Global Coherence app. Like, I can put my finger on the back of the camera on my iPhone and it measures my pulse and then the heart rate variability. And from that comes a coherence number that allows me to contribute in some way to the field of the—

Yeah. Well, it lets you see, it gives you your own real-time feedback on how coherent am I as you practice the different techniques and skills. But then you're right that this app also lets you create groups, which I understand you have. Awesome. Or there's also this, the global group where the whole world's community is coming together and at different times around different events to really kind of get in sync together and add more love, more compassion to the planetary field environment.

I'll be adding that into the show notes. It's a link to the Exit the Matrix group so people can do it. But I just personally love jumping on and seeing other people in the world, the little light on the map to see where people are actually connecting. And I think with intention and bringing— what I'm hearing— groups of people who are heart-aligned at a moment in time can actually elevate that, you know, I guess it's the greater consciousness and connection throughout the world for all of us. And especially in times of difficulty and chaos and disaster and when we think that everything is against us.

Yeah, and what all this research— we've really skipped over a lot here in the time we've had, but What a lot of these studies, whether it's with trees or RNGs or many of the other studies we've done, it's really pointing to that what we are feeding that field, that energetic field, it matters, right? In measurable ways. It matters on being able to measure responses in other people, but also in the physical world. That's what the GCP-2 is really telling us. Is that at least our collective consciousness is in measurable ways interacting with and affecting, changing the physical world.

So we have to be conscious at any time of how we are feeling and then feeding the field.

Yeah, that's kind of a saying that's emerged now out of the Global Coherence Initiative work is ask yourself, what am I feeding the field?

Okay, so as we finish up here, and, uh, and I think that's a really great point that is just that everyone can take away, which is what am I feeding the field today and how am I turning up and connecting to my heart and using emotions to connect to my greatest intuition on supercharged, but also being able to create the life that I want and being the predominant creative force in the life. You personally, Roland, you've been doing this for many, many years. Your research is extraordinary, and I thank you from the logical mind of mine that needed the numbers to be able to prove the rest of it. But what, what for you is the pen down, this is it, I've achieved what I set out to do? Or in, in the future for you, what, what would be the conclusion that you would like to achieve with all of this research that you've done?

Well, I don't know. I mean, I'm not sure there is an endgame. But for my own personal growth is to wake up enough to who I really am in this level of density here on Earth to say that I've really reached that awakening state. Scientifically, I saw you saw this in some of the notes you sent me. I don't say this a lot publicly, but I've got a little handful of collaborators that What we feel would be the biggest scientific contribution that can be made at this time is scientific proof of the human spirit.

That would change, you know, that, and that would change the collective consciousness and the way that we orientate in the world, and potentially this awakening that everyone's talking about that we're going through. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for your dedication and the research you've brought and the knowledge that you're impacting the world with. Because, you know, if, uh, if I can get this information out there to people, because as you said, you know, creating a life of abundance isn't about money and it may not be about, you know, having better connections or relationships or spirit or health. It may just be turning up as a better person and having a connection to the complete you and raising the consciousness of Earth and making the world a better place. And proving that the human spirit will triumph. So thank you so very much for your time. I really appreciate it.

Take care and have a great day, everyone.

And as always, here's to your success. Check out the notes at exitthematrix.today/etm with me, and we will get you the whole interview of this. We will get you all of the downloads. We've explored only a few things today, There's a dashboard I've created for a morning gratitude practice. I'm also experimenting into a 4-dimensional gratitude practice about calling in a future event you want to be grateful for. So let's get on this. Please sign up to the Global Coherence. I'll send you the link to the Exit the Matrix group, and we will start collectively raising our human spirits so that we can create a better world. All the best. Bye for now. Bye bye, Penelope! Bye bye, Penelope! Bye bye, Penelope! Bye bye, Penelope!

Thank you for listening to Exit the Matrix Stories of Success. Make sure you subscribe to future episodes at www.exitthematrix.io. Until next time, here's to your success! Sankumulu nethiwa. Sankumulu aniwa.

Waila ethiwa.