Exit The Matrix with Me Experiment: Robert Fritz | Structural Thinking Cracks the Code

Welcome to Exit the Matrix Stories of Success with your host Jane Slack-Smith, where we celebrate the incredible journeys of individuals who've transcended their limitations and achieved extraordinary success.

So I've been thinking about this. What if the results that you see in your life aren't determined by some magical manifestation, willpower, motivation, and the, I guess, extent of all the experiences that you've had that somehow you just deserve it. And actually, there's potentially a structure of creating a life of abundance that we've been missing out on. There's this secret code that if you knew it, you could completely just do everything in your life that you want. Now, the person that I'm about to introduce you to is someone that I have admired over many years. I was introduced to his work back in 2020 with the book Path of Least Resistance and the work that had been applied from him to womb white clouds natural success work. And Robert Fritz could be described as an author, a scriptwriter. He's just told me that he's won the LA Director's Award for his film Soul and Science based on a, um, a jazz musician. We'll get into that a little later. So we're right off the heels of someone who's just won another accolade. You know, he's an incredible person, which I would probably say as a musician and all of those other things, we could just say he's a Renaissance man. But he's taken it a step further. He's taken all of that creativity and he's pulled it into actually an observation of a structure that allows him to teach and to travel the world and to share the secrets of what he has learned with others. And as part of writing this book, you know, what it is to live a life of abundance, to be true to your heart, to actually claim the desire that you want in all aspects of your life and be able to achieve it, we've navigated this kind of messy middle where people get in the way of themselves. But now I really want the answers of, well, let's just get straight to the point. What do we need to do to get to this? And so, Robert, thank you so much for agreeing to be here today. It is absolute gift to have you.

Well, it's a great pleasure to be with you. So thank you.

Okay, I am going to start right at the beginning because, you know, as I said, I've done a little research on you and I was— I'm not going to say shocked, but I was surprised that you had spent like 6 years studying music at the conservatorium. Your, your go-to passion, your underlying, I guess, um, talent is music. But through music, you've discovered this entire structural dynamic. And I'm just, I'm just interested in how did that all start?

Yeah, it started by— I was teaching a composition class in the New England Conservatory to young composers, and I began to wonder if the same process I was teaching them to write music could be applied to people's lives. Which is in essence the creative process. Now, the creative process, simply put, is you create something, you know, it's not there and you take action and then it's there. Now, um, in 19— and that was 1975, so that's a really long time ago. Now, in 1980, I discovered what I describe as macrostructural patterns, in which there are certain— there's two types of patterns in people's lives. One in which they set out for something, they do what it takes, they create it, and that becomes the platform for future success. And that's the pattern we all want. But there was another pattern. And this is because we're teaching people the creative process in their lives. And the question was, how come some of them go on and create and create and some of them don't? What was going on when they don't? And so I saw another pattern, and the other pattern was they set out for something, they have it for a while, and then there are reversals in the pattern, and at the end of the day they no longer have it, and it's not a good ending. Now, um, In 1984, I wrote the first version of The Path of Least Resistance. So at that point, I had already come to some ideas about this principle, which is really an important foundational principle, and it is: the underlying structure of anything determines its behavior. Now, if you try to change your life but you don't change the underlying structure, there's a good chance you'll revert back to the original patterns. Even though you're sincere and you really want to have a major change and you're really very clear about what you want and so on and so on, that there's something else going on that most people don't know about, don't even think about, which is there's an underlying structure in your life that's in play. Uh, let me give you a quick example of this so everybody gets more of what I mean. Because right now it can sound a bit abstract. So you have a bunch of senior executives in an organization and they're not getting along. And so human resources sends them off to a whitewater rafting trip for team building. Yeah. So they go to the whitewater rafting trip and they fall in love with each other and they gel as a group and they experience a wonderful time together. And then they go back to the original organization they came from, and 6 months later, it's as if it never happened. And what that's proven is, in the right structure, these people can work together, and in the wrong structure, they can't. But nobody ever thought about, wait a second, these guys can't work together, let's give them team building. No, it's not that they can't work as a team, is that the underlying structure they were in, which often includes conflicts of interest, and you're telling this person for quality and you're telling the other person for speed and cost and so on, and no one sorts out these innate conflicts. And so people try to do a good job, but the structures they're in means if they succeed, somebody else fails. So that's an example of that. The underlying structure of anything determines its behavior. We change the underlying structure.

We've jumped, we've jumped straight into this, right? We've, I'm just gonna push pause here because I want to, I want to go into that further, but I'm just, I'm, I'm back in 1975. You're sitting there teaching what I would assume creativity and, you know, pull from your heart and all of these things. And then you talk structure. Now, as an engineer, structure, procedure, processes, you know, it feels right to me. I've always said, here's the arty people, here's the logic people. You're telling me that— how did you find this link that went, there's a path that can be followed, or there's a set of rules or guidelines that anyone can do?

Yeah, when we study composition, we study— we have courses called form and analysis, where you take a piece of music— Beethoven, Chopin, Bach— and you actually analyze the underlying structure that makes it work. And this is a typical traditional conservatory training, right? And certainly in the master's level, it's even more deeply structural. You know, why this note, not that note? Why this chord, not that chord? Wow. And so, you know, your idea that the creative process in art, in the level of the arts, is simply inspiration, it certainly isn't true.

Yeah.

And, you know, it might be true for some people who write poetry that are short-term creative projects or paint in a short-term, you know, way. But anybody who's got a longer project knows that they can't rely on inspiration. What do you do when you're not inspired, especially if you're a professional? Now think about a filmmaker who's got deadlines and a budget, and also what they have is a script, and they have actors, and they have cinematographers, and they have technical things, and then they have to work with actors and so on. To make sure they're supporting the actors in turning in their best performance. So we're no longer in the realm of creativity as such. We're in the realm of the creative process. Now, when I wrote my book, my second book was called Creating, and I got booked on some creativity conferences, and I found I had nothing in common with the people who were doing creativity. First of all, none of them were artists. And all of them had some notion of it's being like a child and freeing the mind and, you know, like that kind of stuff.

Artist therapy.

What they— well, not quite artist therapy because artist therapy can be really, really good. But the theories of creativity were mostly, by the way, for middle managers and corporations, not for artists, was free association. How many uses can you find for a brick? So if Frank Lloyd Wright only found one use for bricks— build buildings— I guess he wasn't that creative. Now, the difference, the major difference between the creativity folks and the art, the real artists, professional artists, is rather than freeing the mind, we focus the mind. And the focus is on two Data points, the end result, what is it we want to bring into being and where are we now in relationship to that? Now, from music, that creates a tension-resolution system. In music harmony, there's a reason why one chord naturally leads to another. And that tension is not a gap and it's not anxiety and it's not nervousness. It's like stretching a rubber band. Like you would understand as an engineer, it's tension that needs resolution. So now, as an artist I have, or creator, I have two things in mind. I have the outcome I want, and then I have where I am now in relationship to the outcome I want. And I have to tell the truth about this, I really want this, and I have to tell the truth about what I have. And that's one reason why positive thinking really hurts you. Because if one of the two data points is current reality, you can't lie about it, you can't overemphasize, you can't pretend things are different than they are, if you see what I mean. And from that, then you begin to take actions and you learn and you adjust and, you know, you eventually figure out how to create it.

It's interesting you talk about this structure because my husband is an artist, a painting artist, and He's about 20 years ago, he started with an Atelier art school and they had to stand, you know, 4 or 5 hours at a time. They were only allowed to paint in burnt umber for a year and they had to paint the Roman, you know, statues of faces to underlie, understand the underlying structure of the muscles and the bones.

And that value, those are called value paintings. And what it does is it— you make the illusion of three-dimensionality in a two-dimensional plane by how dark or light you make something. So the technique that he learned is extraordinary, you know, in terms of really— and I so admire artists who can do that. I can't do that. I tried painting for a while, but I can't do that.

I'm the muse. I'm the muse. I can't paint art.

And I see people who do that. I go, oh my God, look at that. So, but that's what he was doing for the first period of his learning. He was getting a foundation in, um, the value structure of light and dark and its, um, ability to create the illusion of three-dimensionality in a two-dimensional surface.

Okay, I might be pulling on a thread here that is just egotistical, but having just heard you say that that light and dark, if we would put light as our vision and dark as our current reality and creating that difference, is there—

No, but you're on the right track, but it's slightly different. I'm going to describe it a different way. Yeah. In art, that thing he did is called value studies. And values, what you're determining is what's more important, what's less important, what's predominant, what's subdominant. And this is very important in terms of organizing your life, in terms of not only your aspirations, but your values. What's more important, what's less important. And that you have editorial control over what's more important, what's less important. Let me, let me give you an example where, you know, because you always know your values when they're in conflict with other competing values. You go to a concert that your sister's giving, and poor thing, she can't carry a tune in a basket. And you have two predominant values: kindness and truth. Now, if kindness were the predominant value, you'd say, 'Sis, you were great, loved it, just enjoyed the whole concert.' If truth were the value, you know, predominant value, you'd say, 'Don't give up your day job.' Yeah, right. You know, but you see how That becomes a really important— this is not abstract. And we make value choices all the time.

Without knowing it? This is like a subconscious kind of, where am I now? Like, can we have that awareness of, oh, I've got a bit of tension here, what should I say?

Yeah, you know, the more you happen to know that it's a value choice, the easier it is to decide which is more important. Because, you know, if you don't, you're going to be, you know, on the fence. And I saw this comedian once on television, and there were two other guys, and his job as a comedian was to agree with everybody. So a person would say, "I didn't like this." He wouldn't like it. And then the other guy says, "But I did like it." "Well, I did like blah, blah, blah about it." You know, so they finally get to this point where the guy's saying, "I really love this movie." And the other guy said, well, I missed it. And the guy who's supposed to agree with everything said, well, I almost missed it.

Fail.

But you see what I mean? Yeah, it's good to know what's more important to you and what's less important to you, because a lot of times people spend much of their life on things that are not important to them. But, and if they if they didn't, and they didn't happen to know, it wasn't that important. And other things are actually more important, and they could reorganize their life in terms of those things that matter most to them rather than things that don't matter most to them.

How can that be if you've got a predominant value or concept that is, you know, I want a life of abundance, for instance, in concept of this book, and then you've got this, you know, money, easy money comes, money goes. And this is the pattern you have, does it just mean that this one's not as important to you? Or you don't—

No, you decide, you decide. No, it's very simple. You decide which one's more important. And if you're a spendthrift, and you know you are, but you actually want to create affluence, then you, as a secondary choice to the— you create a primary choice. What's more important is the primary choice. So from the primary choice, you create a series of secondary choices. You know, you want optimal health. Secondary choice might be you exercise or you eat the right diet or so on. You want a certain affluence, level of affluence. Secondary choices are how you manage your money. And so even though your tendency or your left to your own devices habit would be you spend it as soon as you have it. you would train yourself to actually not do that as a secondary choice to the primary choice of long-term building the affluence that you, that you want.

Okay, so this kind of brings us to the creative process, right? Um, and before I get to that, I just want to understand, you did say that, and I know you've kind of got 3, um, parts of, of how people create things, the, and the The bottom one is really, it all comes down to the structure. Where do we get that structure? When do we get that structure? How do we get that structure? Because we can talk about how to change it, but I'm just interested in the insights of where it came from.

Okay. Um, let's describe this very simply, and I, I'm not doing it justice by describing it simply, but just for our conversation, you know, to create a little bit of clarity. So there are two major types of patterns. One is advancement. That's the one where you create something, it becomes a platform for future creations, and success leads to other success. And it's nothing magical about that. It's more learning how to do it, how to create. Um, secondly, the second type of pattern is an oscillating pattern in which you have what you want for a while, but then you lose it. And in the first, I'm going to describe the structure of the first and the structure of the second. Okay, in the first one you have structural tension, which is end result, current reality, tension striving for resolution. In the other pattern, you have 3 points, 3 data points: end result, current reality, and some concept. And the concept might be identity or fear of negative consequences or trying to fulfill a purpose in life. Difference. Yep. Well, and so what happens is, I describe this as two rubber bands. You're in a room and you've got two rubber bands, one tied to this wall, one tied to that wall. And as you move toward this wall, the rubber band on the other side The tension on that rubber band stretches, and the path of least resistance, where energy is the easiest to go, is away from what you have. So in that structure, what you have is not sustainable over time. A change of underlying structure means that you have structural tension and there's no concept in play. The, the con— there's no concept in the structure.

So, so there's no concept you have to overcome, which is, you know, if I succeed, people are going to reject me, or, you know, other people first.

You may still have, you may still have that idea, but it's no longer in the structure. So I have this, uh, tripod.

Yeah.

If I take one of the legs away, the behavior changes. The leg I've taken away doesn't disappear, it's simply no longer in the structure. Now, this is what's going to really not sit well for a lot of people, who I describe this as the belief business and the creating business. And What we have come to understand is it doesn't matter what you believe in order to master the creative process. And the, the, the proof of that is that masters of the creative process have believed all kinds of things. People in the belief business say it's very important what you believe because it'll determine the outcome. People in the creating business don't care about what you believe. They care about how well you create. And what do you have to believe to want good relationships, you know, and interesting work, good quality of life? You know, the, the thing that I said can be annoying to people who've spent a lot of money learning that their beliefs are important, to discover that, wait a second, it doesn't matter what I believe. What matters is if I have the right underlying structure, my pattern of success will be advancement rather than oscillation. And it's really physics that we're talking about, you know, and I'm sure as an engineer you can really understand exactly how that works, because what I mean by the path of least resistance is the physics version of that. Energy moves where it's easiest for it to go. The underlying structure will determine that, and that we can change the underlying structure.

Hmm. Let, let me give you my personal experience on that. I trained as an, uh, engineer, mining engineer, and spent about 15 years as an explosives expert. And my job as an explosives engineer and all of the shot firers and, and, um, other engineers that I trained was to understand the mechanism of the energetic work of explosives on rock. And so you drill a hole, you put a, let's just call it a measuring device down it that just essentially went down and said, oh, here's a fracture where the energy could escape. Or here's a fracture where the energy could escape. And like us, we're lazy and we're like, where's the easiest way? I don't wanna do work on the rock and move it out to make it easier for the excavators to dig. I want to escape to the easiest, path of least resistance. And so my job was to find these little fissures and unfortunately for the poor shot firers, say, look, I need you to put about 10 feet of explosives in and then 3 feet of dirt so that the explosive can't escape. So I want all of the energy on the rock. So when you talk about path of least resistance, it's exactly what I did as a job. And I had been sitting with that as, geez, we are fundamentally lazy as—

It's not, you know, It's not exactly lazy. You could be in a structure in which you work really, really hard and get nowhere.

Right?

But it's not about being lazy, it's about having the— like what you're describing is you're assessing out where the energy, where the fractions were, or the factors were that would be the easiest for it to split and explode. and that you were thinking structurally and you were working structurally. Now, just take that—

I was taking those concepts out. I was taking those concepts out that could limit it.

Because you had an end result, the successful explosion of the rocks in period, and you had a really very well-articulated current reality, and then you had action steps that you took, you know, 10 feet down, put the dirt here, and then you had the right explosive, and so on and so on. And you know, what you're describing is no different than what your husband does as a painter. He's got an— he's got an idea for a painting, he's got a blank canvas, you know, he, he takes action to have the blank canvas come up to the action of the painting. And when the vision of the painting is done he signs it. And when he signs it, what he's saying is, this painting is consistent with my vision of this painting. And that's the creative process.

So there's two words that I want to pick up on. Action, which I must put aside because it's, I think, one of the things that hold a lot of people back, you know, between those two things that we discussed. But the other one is this, um, expression of the familiar, like we have a default structure and there is this uncomfortableness where we are looking at a new structure. Can we just discuss that? Because obviously I'm expecting you being such a rational person going, well, you can just choose what you want. But the reality is most of us humans are sitting here going—

I'm actually not going to I'm not going to say that, but I will say it was really easy to move from a typewriter to an electric typewriter to a word processor to a computer, and nobody had, you know, future, uh, trouble with it, you know, the future shock thing. It was completely easy. It's really easy to go from, uh, snail mail to email when If change is well-motivated, people can easily change. And the question is not, "Is change difficult?" The question is, "Do you have the right structure that motivates change?" And if you do, the change itself becomes the path of least resistance.

Because you recognize the benefit of it. And you're motivated towards it.

No, because it's better.

Well, because I'm thinking—

look, look, isn't, isn't a computer— well, I mean, I'm a lousy speller, and I have to tell you that if I had to go and look up all the words that my spell checker helps me with, I probably wouldn't have written a book or many books. You see what I mean? When something's better, you just do it because it's better.

Mm.

Now there's the other thing though, is where it does take work and discipline is where you have to create a hierarchy of what's more important and what's less important. I personally hate to exercise, but I exercise. Mm. Not that I enjoy it, cuz I don't.

Mm.

But because it supports a higher order goal. You know, optimal health. In my case, um, I do those things, you know. I eat, you know, I'm a vegan, so I eat a vegan diet, all that kind of stuff. And it's been, you know, really helpful given I'm really an old person to, uh, create health and do what I want to do.

Obviously, you see, let's create success in your case, right?

Yeah. Now the other thing you said is that is It's about action, motivating action. And I think a good question is what motivates people to do what they do? Because if you understand what the underlying motivation is, and there's something that's really important that you want to accomplish, and you don't want to do the action steps, but you do want to accomplish it, this is where value choice really becomes important. For example, say, okay, I don't want to do these things, but I'm going to do them to support this higher-order outcome I want. And if you do it that way, you don't complain. It's not a trade-off. It's not a burden. It's a strategic secondary choice in favor of the thing that's more important.

Which you don't have to like because the fact that it's more important, right?

And if you don't like it, you probably still won't like it. You don't have to even pretend you like it.

This may not be relevant, but I'm going to tell you a little tension that I have coming up about your analysis, your typewriter through to PC kind of analogy is, you know, the camera came out and all the artists said, we can't have cameras because it's going to put us out of business. And car came out and all of the carriage makers said, we're going to get out of business. AI comes out and all of the photographers are going, I'm going out of business, like with the design. There is consequences with these developments as well. How do you— would you comment on that?

I don't know how to comment on that. It seems to me that cars were probably better than buggies, maybe not in terms of the environment. But, you know, there's, there's progress. Progress is going to happen. Um, now I have to say this a different way. Um, technical technology progress will happen, but people aren't necessarily progressing in terms of how they make decisions. People make decisions about the same way they did 2,000 years ago or more, right? They react to conflict. They do things that are not in their best interest. Um, and on the other hand, there's a possibility of organizing your life so that the principle organizing— the organizing principle is what matters most to you, and that your chances of creating that go up when you use the creative process exactly as I and artists describe it.

Now, I've heard you, um, you know, talk about how just now how the, you know, positive thinking is pretty— is not doing great things for people. I guess The Secret, the book, and that whole phenomenon, etc., that was kind of like you wish it and it will turn up. It, it's missing that action point, isn't it? It's missing almost the secondary choices Is that where most people get held back? Like, how do we work?

You know what it is? It's funny because I did a structural consultation for an actress the other day, and she had all of this going on. I'll get the part if I have the right— and the people getting the part have the right attitude. So she always— so as we looked at it, it turned out that reality is she has no control whether they hire her or not. And by the way, she's a very good actress, and she's been in a lot of major things and so on and so on. But she has no control over that. Now, her having that thinking gave her the illusion of she has control where she doesn't have control.

The illusion that she had control even though she had the concept.

If I think the right thoughts, I'll get the part.

Okay, all right, that's the positive thinking bit.

Yeah. And she presumed that the ones who did get the parts that she didn't get, you know, just had more— yeah, had more positive thoughts. Right. And so we really analyzed how a director would choose an actor, you know, to really get how do they make this decision, what are they after. And it has nothing to do with how positive the person is coming in. It's whether they can do the job. And they have many choices that are really quite good. And so it can come down to anything from your track record. You've worked in a lot of great things and people know you, and, or that you look the part, or, you know, you can make the, you can, you can make it in the dates. You see what I mean? I mean, the point, and the interesting thing was how she was using her notion of magical thinking. As a way to make her feel better about the truth, which is in which she simply didn't have control whether they choose her or not. She offers herself, her services, and they'll either choose her or not.

And I guess that gives some relief in knowing that that is what the underlying premise is, rather than, you know, I just didn't think positive enough because next time I have to do more. I missed out. It was me. Rather than it was just the structure of how the directors choose actresses or actors.

And the other thing is, as an artist, you never want to be in a position of lying to yourself. This is really important in the world of the arts, and it's called emotional truth. Helen Mirren— I want to describe how Helen Mirren described it. And she said it's like there's two tracks. And she said on one track I know where the lights are, I know where the camera is, I know my lines, I know what the other actors are doing, I know what my blocking is. Completely, totally conscious of that. And then the other track, anything can happen. And I describe this as the yin and yang of creating. You know, you're both yin and yang at the same time, where you're both really— you've got a structure and you're working it, and also stuff can come in. That is quite consistent with what you want, but you didn't figure it out. Yeah, but people tend to be superstitious. And, um, and by the way, this is not anti-spiritual or anti, you know, religious or anything like that. It's simply like driving a car. You know, if you know how to drive a car, you can drive a car. And if you know how to create, you can create. And for me, as a professional creator, I teach people how to create, and then they learn how to create, and then they create. And the profound thing about that is they create their lives without the burden of all the concepts that they picked up along the way. It's not that they get rid of the underlying structure, is right?

All the concepts they've picked up have been given to them from others mainly.

That's right. It's a change. Well, no, not from others. Here's what we found that might interest you or our viewers. It wasn't the traumatic experiences they had growing up. It was something different. It was the conclusions they made from the experiences they had, most often. So if the father leaves the home and the girl concludes— I mean, first she has that experience which was not nice and so on, but what's more lasting is she concludes you can't trust men. So now she's got two things going on. She really wants a relationship, 'And you can't trust men.' And the closer she gets to the relationship she wants, the more 'you can't trust men' begins to dominate, even though she doesn't know that. She doesn't even know she thinks that. But she'll put him to the test and she'll do all kinds of things to make him prove that he can be trusted. And she usually, by the way, picks people who can't be trusted. So even that, that's sort of insult to injury. But you can see how the conclusion she made becomes a concept that it's added into a creative process which creates an oscillating pattern. Does it make sense?

Absolutely. And, and I'm, I'm just— these concepts of the oscillating pattern and the one of advancement, um, you know, the podcast I have is called Exit the Matrix, and it, it seems to me that there's this matrix— they don't coexist, there's like two matrixes. There's this matrix that you're stuck in with the the jail cells being made of these concepts that are just always keeping you bouncing off from one way to the other. And there's an exact— there's a different matrix that we're in, which is one that the creative process is— you can be liberated by these boundaries because you don't even see them. You recognize the illusion that they are.

Well, because in reality, they don't exist. The reason people have concepts is because they don't know what they're talking about. You never have a concept when you know. You never have a concept about how old you are or what color your eyes are or where you live. You only have concepts about things you don't know about. So if you really are quite persnickety about current reality, there's a lot of things that we actually don't know, but we don't need to know in the creative process either. Um, but I want to talk about one, the most often concept that people have that throws them off.

Yeah.

And that's identity. And one of the books that I co-wrote with Dr. Wayne Anderson is called Identity. And in that book, we really describe that for most often we grow up and are told to think in terms of our identity. You're a bad person if you don't clean your room. You're a good person if you get good grades. You know, even as a kid, you know, you get the message.

Girls are quiet. Yeah.

So it's all about you and how you see yourself. And this is why the self-esteem business has been such a failure, is because it focuses you on your identity with the notion if you think well about yourself, you'll succeed, and if you don't think well about yourself, you won't succeed. Let me ask you a personal question. Have you ever tried to love somebody you don't love?

Yes.

And it didn't work, right? No. Okay, so there's a lot of choices in life, but love is not one of them. And you may or may not be a fan of yourself, And if you really understand this principle, it doesn't matter a bit. Even if you don't, you know, like yourself, you still want good quality of life and good relationships and happiness and, you know, in, in your terms, abundance, you know, as well as meaningful experiences in your life and so on.

Hello, just a quick message. I hope you're enjoying this podcast bonus session. Now, if you have heard this interview, then you're probably sitting in there going, what is this all about? Well, this is all about my Exit the Matrix experiment. Now, I decided to write a book because I'm really interested in how do we go from the existence that we have now to exiting the matrix and living with intention from our hearts, following our heart's desires, but also creating abundance in all areas of our lives. And hence, whilst I've been researching this book, I thought, this is a really solitary journey. I want people to come on this journey with me. And hence I've got this very special group. Now come and join me. The first month for founders is free. And if you decide Say fantastic. So what I'm doing is I'm interviewing incredible people. I'm getting insights about what's this awakening that people are getting, you know, what is the exit the matrix kind of sliding door moment for them. Now, I've obviously run this podcast for over a year now, and I have more than 30 stories, but I'm also interested in those people who are in this transformational space who are actually not just awakening themselves and they're awakening others. What is the mechanism? As Bashar talks about it, it's the permission slip? Are they going through astrology or meditation or yoga or breathwork? Are they just going within and getting a sense of what's really going on? So that's what all the Exit the Matrix experience is about. I'm going to let you get back to the interview, but if you want to join me, go to exitthematrix.today/etmwithme, which stands for Exit the Matrix with Me. So that's exitthematrix.today/etmwithme. Sign up. I'd love for you to come along. I'm creating courses. There's currently courses in there around 4D gratitude. There's more courses to come. I'm creating custom GPTs on how you can exit the matrix and helping you uncover what lies beneath your subconscious and holding you back. And also other custom GPTs that I'm sure you're going to love. And most of the speakers are actually really motivating me. So I'm creating courses. I'm creating ebooks. I'm creating experiments you can try. I'm creating tools that you can use. And I'm also writing a book. So at some stage I'll get to writing the book. At this moment, it's just all about the research. And I hope you choose to join me because I'm really excited about this experiment. So I'll get back to the interview now. Enjoy yourself. And, uh, as always, here's to your success.

So your self-opinion doesn't matter. And the subtitle of the book Identity is it doesn't matter what you think about yourself. Now the reason why that's important is because in our work on oscillating patterns, 70% of the time it's identity. The other 30%, it's different things, you know, but 70% most often. Now if you can understand that it doesn't matter what you think about yourself, and you want to create this, and you are here in relationship to it, And what you think about it just doesn't matter. The question is, do you want this and where are you in relationship to it? You see how the concept just doesn't even come in. You're not getting rid of anything, you're simply being in touch with reality in a very disciplined way. And that changes the underlying structure.

So if we talk about this illusion that we have, and let's just talk about current reality start with. I've heard you talk about the Book of Color and the example that was in that, because that really kind of allowed me to have an understanding of it. I'm just wondering if you could just share that, because it typifies what you're saying, right?

Oh, it's such a great story. Arthur Stern wrote a book called Color: How to See It and Paint It. And of course, you got to see it before you can paint it. And it's just a technical book on painting color, so it's not like a philosophical book or anything, it's just a technical book. And in the introduction, he describes taking a group of his students down to the shores of the Hudson River and looking across and saying, well, what colors do you see? And so the students said, well, the brick building is red and the other building is yellow, and they had colors for everything. And then he handed out what he described as a— let me see if I can show you this— as a spot screen, which is basically like an index card with a hole in it. I don't know if I can get this in focus.

Yeah, yep, yep, right, just a hole.

So you've got to build a card, and what it does is it isolates the color from the objects. And so he said, now what colors do you see? And they all got very quiet until somebody said, blue, everything over there is blue. So there were two points that he made. First of all, he said artists need to learn how to see what's really there because they have a concept of what things look like rather than observing what things look like. And so they really have to observe to learn how to observe. But secondly, um, he described substituting a concept of reality on reality. And this is what we do when we have certain belief systems and we're, you know, committed to this and think that our world, job in the world is that, or whatever, you know. And so we get really quite imprisoned by these concepts, and it makes it difficult to see reality for what it actually is, because we have these filters that are not true. Now, just like, um, Arthur Stern was teaching his students how to see what was there, we do that in our trainings, all of our trainings, uh, because that's an important factor in the creative process. If you're playing the violin, you got to be able to hear so you can play in tune. You can't play the violin if you're deaf.

That's why my family had me practice the violin at the bottom of the paddock on our farm. It's interesting you say that because I remember very early in dating my husband Todd, and we're walking in the park, and he said, what color do you think the leaves are? And I'm like, uh, green, like, you know, dumbass. And he's like, have a look again. Can you see the purple and the orange? I was looking at him thinking like he's just, you know, he's having a lend. And I had that experience of, for the first time, people see things differently. And I was like, how do you not just see green leaves? And it gave me this, I guess, experience of seeing things through other people's eyes. And then during COVID here in Melbourne—

Well, actually, no, in that example, What he encourages you to do is see it through your own eyes, but more accurately.

The accurate, exactly.

He was, he was, he was bringing you into the world of looking at things more precisely.

Good point. Well, during COVID Melbourne had, you know, the longest lockdown. We had like 270 days of lockdown during COVID And, uh, we were allowed out for an hour at a time or 2 hours at a time. And I set this intention of seeing the extraordinary in the ordinary. In that 1 hour that I had out a day. And I just had my phone, and as I'd pass things, be they a shadow or be them a raindrop on a leaf or whatever, I'd just take a photo. And for months I'd post, you know, 5 or 6 photos a day on Facebook, no commentary, just my walk. And at one stage— and so there's thousands of photos— at one stage I put about 100 of them on Unsplash so people could use them free if they wanted. And And about a year later, 3 people said to me within 1 week, and one was like a shovel operator in a mine site, one was a guy I was coaching in digital marketing, and someone else was in an AI group that I was in. And they all said, I don't like things or comment on things on Facebook, but your pictures got me through. And I thought, oh, that's quite interesting. And I went to Unsplash and I had a look at the views and it was like 30,000 views and 500 downloads. I thought, this is extraordinary. And then I realized that it was for 30 days and there was a million views and now there's 3 million views. And so it's interesting that, you know, I set that intention of my end result was to be in the current reality of lockdown and, you know, despair and all the things that we had.

But also, can I, can I change your word intention? Because it sounds so That's such a big deal. Yeah, well, I mean, it glorifies something really simple, which is you had this idea and you went and did it.

Yeah.

Now this is, you know, this is another thing, and, you know, the, the whole notion of the, the level of intensity of the intention will matter. It should be just the simplest little act, you know, like make a decision, I want to make this for dinner tonight. I want to make a film. I want to write a piano concerto. I want to make a picture. Um, you know, the— it's not about how much intensity of intention you have. It's that you made that choice, you made that decision. And if you made that decision and you look at where you are, and you know what the action steps are, or you don't know and you learn what they are, that then becomes a creative process and there's no glorification of it any more than would be you go to your car and it starts up when you put the key in or you push the button. You know, you sort of expect it to become normal.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And that's what I love about Jane Slack-Smith. It shocked me because I was like, that was just me being me, like me just enjoying and setting in, you know, what I wanted to do.

Well, they didn't buy you. They bought your pictures. And they're, you're not your pictures. Mm. What your pictures are is something you saw and you made. You, it was a creation. Your pictures were a creation.

Mm.

You know?

And, and just going back to that experience that I had with my husband and him showing me the reality, that was the feedback that I got. People would say, can I just come on a walk with you? Because I don't see these things and I wanna see things through your eyes. And all I was doing is reflecting what was there. Rather than my perception of it.

Yeah, that's a great story and a wonderful outcome.

I know, right? Well, let's talk about thinking in pictures because I was reading one of your newsletters that talked about thinking in pictures, a negative space, a positive space, because I'm assuming that the more, I don't know, visual or intensity or real you can make the vision and the current reality, does that add to this creative tension that we're making?

Well, structural tension, yeah. It doesn't have to be the better, the sharper the picture, the more the possibility of creating it. It just simply has to be adequate. In other words, you know what you're trying to create. So I'm trying to de-glorify the mysticism that people—

You're making it all very simple for me. When I'm trying to make it work.

Well, I mean, you went and took a picture and then the picture was great and people loved it. So, you know, that's great. There's nothing, you know, when you try to glorify something, you diminish its real value.

Mm.

You know, this is what happened. So, you know, yeah, you decided you wanted to do something and you did it and it was wonderful. So, The other thing is about thinking visually. We teach that in Learning How to Think Structurally. And the reason is because structural is— structure is an entity that has elements that when combined create patterns of behavior or tendencies of behavior. And if you're thinking visually, you're thinking dimensionally. So you can really see elements at the same time. If you're thinking just in words, you're only thinking linearly.

Which is how most people do think, right? Even though they think they're visual, they're thinking in words.

Yeah, but by thinking visually, you have more comprehension and you're able to understand complexity much more clearly. And so we teach actual visual thinking in our Structural Thinking program.

So I can experience this because I would say I was a visual visual person. You tell me something and I'm in the movie, like, you know.

Yeah, great.

And I'm, you know, and my son, you know, often I'd be calling him for dinner and you go, wait a second, I'm just creating the scene, finishing the scene in my head, you know, when he's acting out something, I can hear him jumping around, you know. So I would say we're visual, but having not really, I've just heard you say most people think in words and I'm thinking, I think I'm thinking in I think I'm seeing pictures. What's the difference of my experience of thinking in words and think, oh, so visually, words and visually?

Yeah. No, this does take training.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I have to say that growing up I was not visual. And when I was in, uh, at the conservatory, it dawned on me that if I started to picture what my teachers were saying, I would understand it better. And it worked. So I practiced picturing, you know, because I was not visual by nature. And so I mastered for myself visual thinking. But that made all of the difference in terms of talking to people, understanding what was going on and what the underlying structures were and so on. At first, people will talk to themselves as they picture. In a later, more sophisticated use of visual thinking, you don't even have the words, you just have the pictures. And you translate it later into words. I mean, it's not like you never are— you're never verbal, but your ability to describe what's going on is heightened by not having to describe it as you're seeing it. Okay, but that's— I've just said a very technical thing that most people can't do all at once.

Yeah. So I know it's, it's, it's the reverse of what we think basically, which is we think it, we have words and then we are creating the visual where you are saying we're taught that the visual comes first and then the words.

No, we're, we're taught that in school though.

Yeah.

I mean, that's traditional training. Education is, is, uh, words, not vision, not pictures.

And I guess the conclusion I make of school is if I do what they tell me to do, I'm gonna get the marks. So that's the way it should be.

Right.

So you've taken a lot of this to global companies. You're a management consultant as well and work with the likes of Nike, etc. How do you start this type of conversation? You're not taking people on the whitewater rafting and giving them a team building experience offsite. Like, how do you bring that? Because I'm just thinking there's a lot of people who are who potentially could take these concepts and say, this is for me, but it can go out further, right?

It can, and I've certainly written two books about that. So one is Path of Least Resistance for Managers, which is a business book, and the other is Managerial Moment of Truth. Now, your question is, what are some of the major changes that happen in organizations? And one of the major changes is to move them from a problem orientation to an outcome orientation. Because a lot of time is spent with problem solving in companies and personally. And personally. And here's the thing, you can solve all of your problems and still not have what you want.

Oh wow, wait a second, that lands, that lands pretty deeply. All right, let's explore that. Tell me more.

Your life is not a problem to solve, it's an opportunity to create. What you want. And it's not to say people don't have problems. It is to say that if you're chronically problem-solving, you're probably doing something wrong. If every now and then you have a problem and you— okay, my car doesn't work, I bring it to the garage, you know, but fine, that's— but, you know, you can solve all of your problems in life and still not have what you want, because creating, you're taking action to have something come into being. Problem solving, you're taking action to have something go away. And those are two different types of activities. Often when you're creating something, what were problems no longer either exist or no longer are relevant in your life. So then there's also learning structural tension for companies. And business strategies and stuff like what's the match between what we're offering and the marketplace and so on. So those are very practical things, very fundamental business things that are consistent with the creative process. In fact, the creative process is very useful for organizations, and it's not creativity, you know, it's not coming up with ideas. It's creating this and then creating this and then creating this and then creating that.

And is their purpose, their vision, is that where we start with them? Is that where you would start, the end result of that?

I don't usually start there, although I would if they have an existential crisis.

Right.

Okay. But for example, a company like Nike, to them, no matter what they say, you know, in terms of purpose statements and stuff, what's really true about Nike is they care about sports. They see sports is a civilizing force, and they want to make the best sports equipment they possibly can make, period. Everything is rooted in that principle and in that vision. So I, you know, when you work with a company that has a great purpose, it often is a great company because they really mean it, and, and everyone's on track.

Everyone knows the purpose.

Yeah. Yeah.

All right. So I was watching one of your little videos. I don't even know if I'd call it a little video. I was watching a video of your words that had been put to video, which was— was it A Night of Blues?

Yeah. Yeah. It was Blues in the Night.

Blues in the Night, which is a famous song. Yeah.

Johnny Mercer. Yeah.

And, and so what you were describing there, and it was just like a, you know, 2 to 3 minute video, so, you know, I don't know what, what's that, 1,000 words or something? But what you described there was it's okay to experience the blues and the sad times and these things, which I was considering in this creative process. So we have this end result, we have where we are. There's times that things aren't really working out. We, we face the blues. It's not like it's a pure path of nothing's ever going to go wrong.

Yeah.

Does that explain—

well, it's also, you know, it's more in— it's more three-dimensional in the human experience. You know, in our society, we've sort of grown up with the notion of that you can't feel badly. It's like if you're feeling badly, something's wrong. But in fact, part of life is you have loss and you have sadness and you have grief and you, you have regret and you have joy and you have elation and you have a whole host of experiences. And that in that article, what I was describing is when you got the blues, enjoy the blues. You know, do you ever have a bad mood and you kind of enjoy it? I'm in a bad mood and, you know, you get to kick something, you're kind of grooving on it anyway. You know, it's not gonna last.

So during the creative process, let's just say that we've practiced this, we've had success, we're like, I'm nailing this, I'm not in oscillation, I know my concepts, they're sitting over there, They're inside the room. I haven't had to fix them. I haven't had to—

or I don't— or I don't know my concepts, but it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter. I have concepts. There could be thousands of them. I found one. There's others. Let's just leave them alone. I don't need to explore them and spend thousands of dollars on therapy for it. I'm okay. Not that there's anything wrong with therapy. It has its place. But things are going to come up during this process. They're the blues. Let's just call them the blues.

Yeah.

How do you then— like, are you you know, or circumstances, or all of a sudden you get a blindside, there's a condition that rears its head. How do you deal with that? How do you course create or course correct to get back on track or go, well, this is just a moment? Like, what is that?

What makes you think you're not on track?

Well, if you're going for—

today I'm creating something and I feel okay. Today I'm creating something and I feel like shit. "Today I'm creating something, I feel terrific. Today I'm creating something, I have a headache. Today I'm creating something, you know, and I had a fight with my kid. Today I'm creating something and, you know, it's cold in here." You know what I mean? It's, you know, it's the creative process is not circumstantial.

There we go.

Yeah, and particularly for professionals. And when I try to teach people is the creative process on the level of professionalism. You know, any amateur can do something when they're inspired. What do you do on days you're not inspired?

Be the professional in your own life. You know, I've seen on your YouTube channel where you you basically run these sessions, right? You, you allow people to watch you, um, deconstructing these concepts that people have, and they don't know them. And they come with a, uh, I'm worried about this job, or I'm worried about this relationship, and you never— you unpick everything and you ask these uncomfortable questions that really get people Thinking. Looking at something they have never seen before.

Thinking. They get them thinking.

Yeah.

About their own assumptions and how do they know if they're true and if they're true and if they're not true, why do they think them?

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I want to tell you a little bit about that channel and the reason I created it. Is that okay?

Oh yeah. Okay.

So one day I'm, I'm going through this channels on TV. And I see, I don't know if you have Dr. Phil there, but, oh yeah, you know, there's, there's Dr. Phil.

He's everywhere.

And I thought, Jesus, this guy is terrible. And I thought, well, you know what? Nobody's actually seen structural consulting except people who have been clients for it. And so I thought, well, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna create a channel where I'm gonna present full structural consultations so people, you know, can have a chance to see what they really like. And it's not therapy, it's not doing therapy, and it's not a substitute for therapy. It's a different thing entirely. But it is structural consulting. In other words, looking at the underlying structures in people's lives. A lot of times people think they need therapy and what they just have is a dysfunctional structure that they're up against. And therapy doesn't address structure. And there's a place for therapy. We're not doing patho— you know, pathology or pathopsychology. We're doing structure, structural dynamics. And one way to think about this is the structure of what you were working with in your engineering days is exactly the same type of structure physics that we work in the creative process, that we work in music, that we work in film, you know, some structures are in people's lives and some structures are mechanical. And it really— there's a certain power of structure because it's causal, and there's also a certain beauty in structure, it's just gorgeous, you know, like how things fit together and how they work and what they give rise to and so on. And so that's why the channel was created, is to let people know that there's this thing that exists, And they can actually see changes and profound changes in people's lives because in each of those sessions there's a change of underlying structure for the client. And from that point on, their life is different.

I watched one with, I think it was Michael, who came to you with struggling about, you know, what job he should choose. And by the end of it, you had exposed, is the word I'm going to use, this concept that he had that he had to have a life of purpose. And it was so important for him to choose this life of purpose. And he still couldn't get it until you said, well, let's get you out of the picture and talk about your daughters.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, do you— are you going to impose that on them? And you're— he's like, well, I have, but I want them to have a life of freedom. And it's like, how can you have both of these things? And it, it struck me that, you know, and it's interesting you say 70% of our identity, because I wondered you know, with all of the sessions that you do, you know, what is this— is there a commonality that people get to that just kind of like—

Well, yeah, there's particularly 4 life-changing issues that I'm working with in the Path of Least Resistance workshop I'm doing in Australia and also working with it in teaching people how to be structural consultants. It's a different workshop in Australia. And they are identity, purpose and existence, which was that session that you saw. Freedom and control is a very tough issue for a lot of people. And then finally, parental preoccupation, in which you're kind of hoping that you can resolve your issues with your parents.

Can you, when you start talking to someone, like you start talking to me, you're like, oh, I bet you I know which one they got.

I have no idea. I wouldn't do that. Okay.

I was like, oh, good. Thank you. Okay. No, no.

Because see, I, this is not diagnostic in a prescriptive sense. It's like you really have to, right?

Talk to the individual.

Talk to the individual.

That's what I'm seeing. Yeah.

And well, you have to talk to the individual about their situation, not some general thing that you can impose on people.

Yeah. Well, it's interesting. We talk about being the predominant creator of your own life and choosing that way. And you had shared previously this example of you writing this flute piece that in the creation stage, it was this lovely experience. And then you listen to it and you hate it, right? You say, you know, you could be the playwright and also the lead actor and And it's not until you're the audience of what you've created that you actually see what you've created.

I killed it.

It strikes me that a lot of the things that people try to create may not be what they want.

No, but you create it and you see, you know, it's funny. John Lennon said, I'm not a Beatle fan. Now, he was a great Beatle. Yeah, so you didn't have to be a Beatles fan to be a great Beatle, right? Think about that, you know. Yeah, you create something and, you know, but also, also, um, there's a certain typical cycle that artists have with their creations, and it's a love-hate-love relationship. They love it while they're creating it, and then for a while they don't like it anymore because it somehow didn't live up to their expectation. And then they love it again because they rediscover it. Now, that flute piece you mentioned, I hated it all the time, so I never got to like it ever. And I usually write things I like, and I didn't like it, so I got rid of it. I didn't want it to exist.

Have you got a favorite piece of music?

Do I? Yeah. That I've written?

Any piece.

Oh, many. I just love it. I love music. So I, it's very, I mean, I don't like elevator music and stuff like that, but almost every kind of music I love.

I have to say, I have, you know, the Star Wars theme, like it plays in my head often. And if I'm about to stand on stage or something, I've got the Star Wars theme. But the bit I hate is it does a doo doo doo doo, and then it goes to the ah da da da da. I hate the little bit. At the end, I'm like, I know this, you know, we're building back up to another crescendo, but I love the beginning.

Well, remember though that music was functional in relationship to the film, and film music is not concert music. It really has a purpose.

So I—

because I write film music and I write concert music and I write rock and roll and I write jazz and I write classical music and I, I write it, you know, I just write a lot of different styles. Um, and, um, I, you know, I made a Japanese film a couple years ago, and I got to write Japanese music for the film, which I absolutely loved, which I'd never done before. But, you know, so, all right, so I can't say, you know, it's like, that's a different thing.

Yeah, that's, that's my One Piece though. I just, I have it playing in my head quite often.

It's like, when you, when you saw it in the film though, did it work cinematically.

Of course. Of course.

Yeah.

Yeah. Um, all right.

So last, that's because John Williams is good.

Yeah. Right. He gets it.

It's, it's like when he can, he can create when he's inspired or not, and when he has a cold or not. You, you see what I mean? He's like a professional. Yeah.

Right. Where he's had a fight with the kids or not. Yeah. It's all good. Well, Robert, in, um, March 2026, you've got 3 workshops that you're gonna be running.

Yeah.

Can you just take me through each one of those? Because, you know, obviously they're different. And for people who are listening to this way in the advance, 2027, you know, the incredible Robert post-80 in age is run, runs in the Mexico often and runs them around the world. So don't think you're being excluded because, uh, these dates have passed.

But the 3 primary workshops that you run are, well, also just to say, this is the only time I'll ever be in Australia. So it's the first and only, and so I'm really quite excited about coming. And one reason is I know that there's a lot of fans of Path of Least Resistance, the book, and the work that other people have done based on my work. And a lot of the stuff that people have learned was stuff I created in the '80s and is not current. And so one reason I really want to come there is because of, you know, it's almost like, oh, 40 years of development.

You want to bring us up to speed?

Yes. So Path of Least Resistance is based on the title of my book, and it's a personal transformational course. And what people can expect from that course is two things. One is to really have a change of underlying structure like we've been describing. And secondly, to really learn some of the rudiments of the creative process as applied to their own life situations. Um, and that's going to be a very powerful personal course for people, and I'm unbelievably excited about leading it.

And then you've got one for artists as well.

Yeah, so that's the March 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th is the Path of Least Resistance. Yeah. Then March 9th, 10th, and 11th is a specific course for artists called The Art of the Creative Process, and it is a structural approach toward creating art. And it could be for any level from beginners to, you know, people who are masters. And it's open to every type of artist from visual artists, dancers, choreographers, filmmakers, writers, graphic designers, writers, scriptwriters. And, um, and there's certain principles of structure that most artists don't know, um, that when they know it, even if they're masters of their particular art, when they learn them, they can apply it to their art in various ways. And it just ups their game and frees them in a lot of ways too. So that's that course. And then finally is Fundamentals of Structural Thinking, which is primarily for consultants, coaches, people in the helping professions, psychologists, therapists, even managers. And what that course is about is teaching the fundamentals of how to think structurally in a consulting or coaching way. And so the first day of that is general principles, the second day is business, it as applied to businesses, which includes business strategy and so on, and lots of great business stuff as structural dynamics. The next day is a personal day, how to deal with personal stuff in terms of structure. And the final day is called digital day, in which I teach people some processes I've developed called digital thinking, digital decision-making, digital business analysis, digital role evaluations, and so on.

So those are the 3 courses. You don't have to do 1 to do 3. Okay, fantastic. Where am I going to learn how to do the visual thinking? Which course is that in?

Fundamentals of Structural Thinking.

Fundamentals. Mm, I'm delighted with that. Well, it has been an absolute gift speaking with you. I am going to quote a forward from your book of essays, and then I'm gonna leave you with the question to leave with me, which is essentially, you know, if you are going to pierce an arrow through my soul and leave me with a message of how to create the life I desire, what would it be? But I'm just going to quote this, Ford, because it really struck me as such beautiful words. And I know you're very precise in how you put your words together, and I really appreciate that. And this is what you said: when I write these types of essays, I have two things in mind, call them goals. One is that I would like the reader to be uplifted by the experience. Now, I'm not talking about inspiration per se, but rather that he or she will find something that enables the soul to find greater expression, the human spirit to reveal itself more definitely, and the mind to confront new and hopefully interesting ideas. The other goal is to say something worth saying, something that has not been said before, something that is worth taking the time to consider. So with all of that said, Robert, what are you going to leave us with, with the message that we are going to sit with and consider?

There's many things I could say of the available things, but I think the one that for me personally is the most important in my life, independent of relationships, particularly relationship with my wife, is artistic freedom. And what that means is the ability to live your life in such a way that you can do what you want. You can make things that you want. You can— in my case, it's making music, making film. I, I also work with businesses, and I think of that in totally a creative way in terms of helping the business be— be a creator of its offering to the public. Um, and also, as you know, we work with— in the developing world bringing these principles to that world. And that's been totally profound in relationship to freedom of the spirit of the person. And freedom is not simply an abstract thing. You know, let me say it this way. A couple of years ago, I got very sick. And was in the hospital for a while and had to take antibiotics for a year. And I had no energy, and I was completely unmotivated and just wanted to be in bed all the time. And, you know, I had that experience for a year. And then when it was over, when I came out of it, you know, it's like getting alive again. And there's no substitute for your opportunity when you're alive. And so this thing about freedom to create your life the way you really want your life to be is, is not a small matter. It's really a profound matter. And on the other side of that, I mean, I, I— the contrast between being sick and, you know, because I hadn't been ever sick like had that before, to being sick and then not being sick. It was like, wow, it's almost like, you know, in the old Frankenstein movie, it's alive. So that life really just so includes possibilities that are profound and beautiful.

Artistic freedom, what we can all hope for in our life, and now we have the structure to be able to create it. So thank you so very much for that, and I just want to let people know, go to exitthematrix.today/robertfritz, and it's going to lead you to robertfritz.com, where all the courses that he's doing, his tour coming up in Australia, the structural consulting YouTube channel, the books, everything. And Robert, congratulations today on that LA Director's Award. Like, you know, It shows you success builds on success. And you, as I said, a Renaissance man in so many ways, you know, you're creating success in so many different areas of life and a true inspiration. So thank you for being on this journey with me in unlocking the ways that people can create abundance in their life. And thank you for demystifying and making it simple.

Well, thank you so much for just this wonderful time we've had together.

And as always, here's to your success. Bye for now.

Thank you for listening to Exit the Matrix Stories of Success. Make sure you subscribe to future episodes at www.exitthematrix.io. Until next time. Here's to your success! [FOREIGN LANGUAGE]