Exit The Matrix with Me Experiment: Guest: ETM With Me: Hussein Hallak, From Refugee to Life Mastery | Reveals the Dark Art of True Success

Welcome to Exit the Matrix Stories of Success with your host Jane Slack-Smith, where we celebrate the incredible journeys of individuals who've transcended their limitations and achieved extraordinary success.

Hello, and it is Jane back here with Exit the Matrix with me, live book research experiment. And I have to say, I am particularly excited about talking to my next guest because we've just been chatting here for the last 15 minutes and I feel like I already know his soul. And, uh, this is, this is someone who has so much information that I have no idea where my questions are going to go. But, uh, welcome Hussein Halak. How are you?

I'm doing very well, Jane. Thank you for having me. I'm super excited about the conversation.

All the way from Canada. Yeah, we got— we're going international here, which is pretty exciting. Now let me just give you a little context of where we're at. I'm researching this book and the idea around living a life of abundance, living a life of certainty, or maybe not certainty, living a life of sovereignty, living a life where, you know, you are aligned to your purpose, your true north, all of the things that allow you to feel fulfilled. And my research so far has come to a point where My personal experience has kind of been you add things on. I need to do another course. I need to, you know, find the guru. I need to find the right mentor. Oh my goodness, this person's doing this. I need to do that. I need to make a switch, a big change. And what I've kind of come across as, as I've been on this exploration is really it's about releasing things and shredding things and almost going back to this initial essence. And there's so, so so much conflict around the, I guess, the self-help and transformational business about which way do you go and whoever gets the biggest marketing dollars seems to win this message point. And what I really loved when I reached out and got some more information about you was that you'd just written this book, The Dark Art of Mastery. And I was sitting there going, It does feel like a dark art, you know, and, and the book itself, you know, when I started going through it, it's talking about things about certainty and talking about true north and talking about all of these things. I'm like, this master has been here before me. So I'm so excited to jump into this. But first of all, who are you and how did you get to this point? Because I looked at your CV and this does not look like someone who is a personal transformational junkie who's been, you know, about to share the mysteries of the world. You've had an incredible background.

Thank you. I appreciate that. I think I stumbled my way to where I am honestly, because if I look backwards, I love Steve Jobs' quote, which is you only can connect the dots looking back. So yeah, I look back and it's like, oh, of course it makes perfect sense. But at the time I was, I think at every single moment, if I am to be honest, I was completely clueless. Like I had no clue. That things will turn out the way they turned out. And of course, when people bring me on to like to speak and of course, I knew and of course, I'm this intelligent, aware person, strategic and made those decisions. But honestly, that's why I wrote the book because I wanted to give people permission to live the moment as it is and to make those choices without the burden. So who I am, I'm someone who I think made a ton of choices. Many of them were wrong. I took a lot of shots at life. I managed to build 22 companies, managed to help hundreds of entrepreneurs, been in places and worked with people that I've never thought I would ever be around. And at the heart of it is, I think a person that went out, what I did is I went out of the, or I went out after what I really loved. And never held back. And I think that is the thing that defines me. And if there's one word that defines what I do is I help people, whatever I do, whatever I'm into, it has to help someone or else I won't do it.

So what interests me is that, you know, I'm exploring what can hold people back from like, you know, that mission of what you've said, helping people and just, you know, knowing that you're gonna take some shots and gonna miss. But your background, I think, is something worth exploring. And you're, I guess, from a refugee status in Syria, because a lot of people let what's considered trauma or setbacks define their lives. And I'm just interested in how did you go from that to building these companies and, you know, changing countries with nothing? And what was, the stories that you were telling yourself about that time?

Oh, up until I think— so I was born and raised in Damascus, Syria. Always been held— my name actually holds a lot of kind of power over me because my name is the name of my uncle who used to be a revolutionary. He protested the French occupation when he was 9th grade and got shot in the shoulder. At 18, between 18 and 20, participated in every revolution and in the Arab world, like he was part of— when we saw the photos, he was in every photo, wherever there is colonial powers around the Arab world and kind of kicking out the French, the British, you name them, the Italians, no, no hurt. But I mean, those were the colonial powers. And this is what I grew up in. It's like, here's your name, we named you after this great person. And now I need to live up to that.

What an expectation, right?

So I couldn't just be anybody. But in Syria, you don't grow up thinking that you're gonna do business. You grow up, you're gonna study. So I studied engineering because that's what my marks got me. And I've always written and I've always read in politics, poetry. But then I wanted to work because I wanted money. We were poor. I mean, just to give you kind of a measurement, an engineer in Syria would be paid $100 per month as a salary. So, and that is like in the '90s. So that is what I grew up and I—

Let's just put that into context. When I graduated as a mining engineer in 1992, I graduated on $80,000 Australian dollars. So like $65,000 US.

Yeah, that's, that's a fortune where I come from.

Yeah.

It's like literally a life fortune. Um, in fact, my, my uncle in his business venture lost like his life savings, which was $60,000. That was his life savings.

All right. Context. Yep. Got it.

So I completely get it.

Can I just come back to this, this idea of your your uncle being this rebel? Because I know that, you know, we talk about, you know, we love the concept of the fact that there's a matrix and we're on this path to try to exit or choose to stay within and not even be aware that we're in it. But for most people, there's a cultural type of overlay, societal, parents, maybe religious, maybe education, you know, maybe political that is a constraint that builds this matrix. You've got something there that I have never heard of. And this is like a, I don't know, it's almost like an ode to someone by being named after a rebel. Like as a mother, you know, and I imagine you're a parent 'cause I see dad written behind you there. But I mean, I wouldn't be wanting to have my 3-year-old son named after a rebel, right? We're trying to get him to sleep. You know, whatever. He's 17 now, it's not 3. But like, was that something that was so ingrained? You saw the stories, you saw the photos from a very young age, and there was this expectation of greatness or other— helping others. Is that kind of where you feel this supporting and helping others come from?

That's, that's interesting. I didn't think about it that way, but I think that, that was definitely in the background. The background, like, I couldn't be just any ordinary person. I couldn't just behave ordinary or show up. I held that I had a duty to honor his memory, his name. I couldn't have like his name be just anywhere. So I had that and having finding like even the kind of work that I need to do, the whatever I had to do, it had to be the best. It had to be because he led the number one publishing company after, because he was, while he was involved in those kind of revolutionary acts, he never took office. So he never kind of sought the title. He did it to help people. And then he built this publishing company, which he published for the top poets, the top writers in the Arab world. And I was like, how can you live up to that? And he never talks about himself like that. He's always very humble. It's people talking about him. His funeral was, he died in my hands actually when he was visiting Syria, which was kind of a traumatic event. And his funeral had 5,000 cars. Like I've never seen anything like that. It's like the whole town came up, came out to his funeral. So that is kind of was in the background. It was around graduating.

Cars, cars, people say cars. Yeah, okay. I wasn't sure if you said carts or, or, uh, cards, like, yeah, condolence. Okay, cars turned up to follow the— I heard. Okay, all right. So, okay, so I'm actually seeing a lot of parallels here with your life, Hussein, because you are someone who stands for others You are someone who's built businesses in the arts and culture, and you've currently got an AI technology business that when you look at it, it says something like, this is for arts and culture. And I'm like, what? That's for arts and culture, but it's an AI business. And so you, you are someone who's taken, you know, this helping others and really this mantle of responsibility and once again done it in a very humble way. So you've emulated this person. Do you look back at your life now and think— because we talk about people with trauma who are pulling from these stories of the past. I mean, you've obviously got a very positive story from the past, and I have too. I've got a story of, you know, my mum and dad would say goodnight to my sister and I every night, and mum would always say, "You are Jane Slack-Smith, and you can do anything but fly, but with God's help, you could probably fly." And I just believed I could do anything. And so I was shocked when I met other people who hadn't had a childhood that was that positiveness, and you took that. So do you see how you've paralleled and how that's built your life now?

Yeah, certainly. I think a lot of what standing up for others and standing up for without needing others to— not just others, without needing somebody to come in and say, you know, good for you or something like that. I mean, Don't get me wrong, I love it. I love when people compliment and all of that, but it's more like a feedback loop rather than something that would stop me from doing it. And that's why you were talking about writing a book. I wrote 4 books before this one, and I wasn't willing to kind of let them out because it wasn't about writing a book. It's about the reason I wrote this book is I wanted to leave to leave people with something, the people that I couldn't reach personally. I'm kind of known in, actually funny enough, I don't know how, but in Canada as someone who, if someone lands in Toronto and they somehow find someone and ask who can help me, I find people reaching out and say, hey, somebody said that I can reach out to you and ask you a question. And my first answer would be always yes. It's how can we find the time to do that? And regardless of whether it's part of my job or not, I led one of the top incubators here in Vancouver. It's always been about how can I help? That's always the answer. Like, for example, I can't do this, but how can I help? It's always that. And it's always given me the most amazing, remarkable results. Like, it's not something just altruistic. It's, I think it's a way of being. So it's not something that I think about. It's like, you know what, I'm doing charity or I'm helping people for their sake. It's actually a way of being for me, and I don't expect it from others, but I do kind of enjoy it in myself.

Do you get surprised, just as a little aside here, when others are helpful to you? Are you genuinely surprised?

I was blown away. Yeah, when I landed here in Vancouver. So growing up in the Arab world, we don't have a startup culture, or, you know, people are very helpful. If you go, we have this Bedouin thing, which is you walk into someone's home, and if you say, I need your help, they wouldn't ask you even your name for 3 days. Like, they would give you food, they would give you shelter, and they wouldn't ask for your name. That's kind of tradition. And actually, if they don't, they're shamed by their neighbors. So this is kind of a tradition there. But this is a different kind of help where successful people are, we don't have that culture. And I think that's also the case outside of the startup culture, the startup culture as in like the Silicon Valley approach or the where you would find people who are extremely successful, you know, exited with hundreds of millions of dollars, sometimes billionaires. And they would sit with you, give you the time to help you and you're just a, a puny entrepreneur who just started. There's nothing to hope out of it. So that culture surprised me when I landed here in Vancouver and I was so blown away to the point that I said, how can I help as always? And I ended up mentoring a lot in the community. And that's how I got my job at Launch Academy as a GM because they said, you're helping all these people, would you become general manager? I never even applied for the job. They offered it to me. And that was kind of, that was surprising that people are willing to help. And it, and I, it wanted, it drove me to want to help more. And that's kind of my story. That's the reason why I was, I think I thrived and survived in Vancouver.

And what was the decision that finally made you move from Syria to Vancouver?

Well, first I moved to Dubai, and that was because the, my company, my first tech company in Syria I got aqua hired by the Disney of the Middle East. So they gave me a job in Dubai. So I went there and I love Dubai. Dubai is awesome. But then one of the key things is Dubai doesn't give nationality. You can get residency. And with the war in Syria, we were a little bit worried about because coming back there, we didn't know where that's going. That's number one. Number two, we always loved Canada. And a lot of my wife's family were in America and living in America. So we said we'll be close to them. It's a great place to raise the kids. While Dubai is awesome, the heat there is a killer and we love outdoors. Me and my wife love the outdoors, love to walk in the rain, and we were missing that in Dubai. Dubai is awesome, but then there's a limit to how many malls you can go. And being, you know, in the air conditioning. So when we chose Canada, came to Vancouver, it was the best decision we've ever chosen.

Wow. I have to say Vancouver is one of the most— I had a studying mining engineering. A lot of my friends moved to Vancouver to work for companies that were doing Arctic diamond mining and this stuff, but, and based there. So I had a chance to go there, but I also, I had won a Churchill Fellowship in 2000 for an innovative blasting technique to environment, to rehabilitate mine sites. And I was to go to Vancouver Island and I flew into Vancouver and the person who was supposed to pick me up, I was like, "So where are you?" And he's like, "I'm at the airport." I'm like, "No, I'm at the airport." And he was in Vancouver Island, I was in Vancouver. So it took a whole different sway. So yeah, but yeah, I think that for me, The Irish, the Australians, probably the Kiwis— gotta be nice to my husband's Kiwi— and the Canadians, that, that whole, uh, group of people have such a generic type of, you know, a niceness about them that I always feel very familiar and at home. And, and yeah, it's a great place. All right, now you've been in Canada, you've had, you know, this— oh my God— mantle of responsibility on your name being applied to you. You've, you're helping people out, you've had startups, you've had great exits, you're building companies, you're helping so much they've said go run an incubator, you're helping all these other companies create all these amazing things, you're seeing, you know, what's the cutting edge things, you're supporting people, all of this is happening and you've got to a point and you've written books and, you know, you've been in this, I guess, market leading type business world. And even more so at the pointy end, the startup world. And then you write this book about the dark arts of mastery. Like, is this from your personal observations or is this from like, I've spoken to 1,000 people and seen where they get in front, in the way of themselves? Like, how did that come about?

Yeah, that's a great question. I think one of the key things is I truly, there's a certain point where I felt like I've mastered life.

You got to the point where you mastered life.

Yeah, I thought that.

High five.

Yeah. So yeah, and I think it was when I felt, and I kind of struggled with that because life mastery is different than, let's say, you know, you've reached. It's not a reaching point. What is it about? I think it's a combination of deep understanding and being also between deep understanding and being comfortable with not understanding. Like it's that kind of thing that you're in between and you're like, it's okay. And I think that moment and I didn't notice that moment about myself. Like I noticed it every time I meet someone else. And the reason is that because everybody was telling me, Hussein, you have this calmness about you. Now, I'm not calm. I'm a very loud person and a very energetic person. But somebody said, yeah, they would say with me, like, we can bring the biggest problem to you and you'd like look at it with calmness. And I wanted to discover what that is for myself because that's what people saw. And for me, I was always running after something. Like I was always not satisfied with life. And so what is that? And it was this metaphor that I kind of landed on when I kind of explored it with the book. It's the metaphor of being at sea. And at sea, when you're, let's say, you're kind of leading your ship and you're at the helm, your decisions or your choices are in the moment. And you don't question, like, you're not questioning why is the sea, you know, pushy for me, or why is there a storm. You don't question that. It's like, there's a storm, I need to make the choices in the moment, or it's calm, I need to, or there is no wind, whatever it is. If you need to move forward, or if you need to navigate your way to your destination, you just make choices. And it's just a matter of fact. And that's why it's I called it the dark art because it's not a process, like it's not something you teach. Yeah, it's because you're never ready for it. And that's, I call it is like in the, you know, the sea doesn't care, you know, the sea doesn't care about you. You can be someone who's just started your life and just got onto your ship, never navigated a ship, and the sea would give you the ride of your life. It will even send wind your way and drive you to your destination. Yeah, we call it in real life, like, you know, you had the gold, born with the golden spoon or whatever that is, you know, people that are happy and their life is all up and up. And you can be someone with 20, 30 years of life experience, navigated the harshest seas. And then when you jump on the ship, the sea throws everything at you. So all you've got, regardless of what experience, all you've got is your choice at the moment. And once you actually realize that, you've mastered life. So all of my book is around that, is that regardless, you, we, what we do is we spend our life worrying about why did I get here? Why does it happen to me? You know, this is my history. And I'm not taking that away from people. They're absolutely right. The problem is it doesn't matter. It's not that it, you shouldn't or you should. The problem is in the moment, All that matters is the choice you make right now. And the next moment, all that matters is the choice you make at that moment. And the next moment is a choice. So all life is, is a series of choices. If you play a game, you will understand that. If you play a sport, you'll understand that nobody is standing like nobody stops the game. And like, you know, Michael Jordan stops the game. It's like, why did you do that? Why did it? No, it's like the game is still on. Take a shot. That's all you can do. You're falling, you're failing. Everybody's all you can do is take a shot. All you can do is continue to play the game. And that is, that is basically how I, what I think I landed with. And that's why I said that's life mastery.

You know, it just astounds me. I was at a retreat recently and, you know, you're doing yoga and doing 9D breathwork and doing all these things to get into zone and try to, you know, tap into Inner Spark, whatever. And, um, and this beautiful man, Matteo, said— essentially started his session. He said, put your hands together and come into the present. And I burst into tears. I thought, it's that easy. It's a choice. Like, you know, and, and what I love about what you said just then is that you, you mentioned the ship, right? And you mentioned the decisions in the present and having that despite the uncertainty and the chaos and everything. You're just making a decision in the present. And I want to come back to how the past can affect that decision. But you also said you've got a destination. And I know in the book you talk about having your compass, not your map. But can you talk to that? Because the destination— you need to know where you're going, right? But it sounds like in the, in the moment, there's a non-attachment to the process.

Yeah, well, that's why I call it a choice. I did this program called the Landmark Forum. Yeah, yeah. So, and in that, there's one question that stuck with me, and they ask these questions like chocolate, vanilla, choose. And the person says vanilla. I was like, why did you choose vanilla? And they smiled and said, because I like it, whatever. I said, no, no, chocolate, vanilla, choose. And I said vanilla. Why did you choose? And they keep asking until the person realized Why did you choose vanilla? Because I choose vanilla. Why did you choose chocolate? Because I choose chocolate. And choice is very different than decision. Decision requires, you know, like when you make a decision, you have to take into consideration all of these things that come into the decision. You're deciding, let's say, to take your company public or, you know, to enter a new market. You have to consider all of the elements that comes into that. That is great for a business. But that's not how we do life. Life is a series of choices. A choice is something you do in the moment just because you choose to. And once you realize that, you realize that the power of choice is that you can make a choice that is completely different right in the moment after. And when you realize that, you realize that you're back at being a 5-year-old. And I always use this example, and if you look at a 5-year-old, and they have these multiple toys and they, let's say, playing with Lego and they build something and they spent, let's say, 20 minutes building something. And then at a moment they leave it and they go play with the cat. And if you were deciding as a business to analyze that and say, well, you spent 20 minutes building that, why didn't you complete it? Why didn't you enhance it? Why didn't— because we have all these reasons to get stuck in something, whereas all the kid is doing is that he or she are choosing in the moment what matters to them in the moment. At that moment, after they finish that building or whatever it is, halfway, whatever, the next moment, what was important to them is to be with that cat. That was important in that moment. So they made a choice in the moment. So choice is choice in the moment, and it doesn't need a reason. You become unreasonable, someone who's free of reason. And when you do that, you actually, you start to enjoy life because you're not making decisions based on your background. You know, I could have easily landed in Vancouver and made a choice because I was already an accomplished entrepreneur. I had two successful businesses in Dubai. I had award-winning and then I couldn't find a job and I could have easily sucked like I'm not finding a job. I'm not finding a job. Why can't I? And all of that. And then I made a choice and My choice was to start networking with people and start meeting people because that's what I wanted in the moment. I said, what do I really want? I want to talk to people. So I let go of the search for a job and the search for a job from that perspective. I know what I started meeting people and I connected with, I think during a summer of 2014, 6,000 people on LinkedIn, ended up with 100 coffees and 5 job offers without even asking. And I don't mean law of attraction kind of thing. I just mean that by making that choice in the moment, what ends up happening is that the opportunity opens up because there are opportunities. As Richard Branson says, opportunities are like buses. There's always another one. The question is, are you ready to see it? So when you make choices and when you make choices, you're by definition in the moment, you start seeing what's available to you in the moment. When you're making decisions, you're evaluating. So you're all in your head. You're not And again, both are important and both are different kind of, I would say, processes or approaches to different parts of life. But choice is living in the moment, dealing with what's available right now, and having the awareness to know that whatever choice you make right now, even if it's the wrong choice, like I can say a wrong word right now. And what people do, let's say I say a wrong word, then I hurt you. What people say now, they're stuck in the hurt. I was like, what do I do? What do I do? Then if I'm in choice, the next choice would be to say I'm sorry, you know, and to fix it. Yeah, because I choose to. So this is a difference, and it's a very palpable difference when you actually anchor yourself in it. And the more you do it, the more skilled at it. And I noticed that since 2008, 2009, I did a coaching workshop. I became more present and more aware and doing that more often. And then when I looked at it, I say, okay, this is my superpower because I can make any choice I want. And if I'm not happy with it and I'm not happy with the result, I make a different choice right away. I was like, this is— is it this easy? And, and, and it was.

This is profound, right? Because it is easy But it's not simple, is it? Because you have to have that awareness, you have to have that cognitive point that you go, am I coming from decision or choice? And for me, this has been a process, I think, over the last 5 years where I look back and go, oh, I missed that. And when the time period has got to— I'm in the moment going, wait a second, my thoughts and feelings. This is, this is me orchestrating an answer or orchestrating an outcome rather than being— and your childlike analogy is very much like the being in innocence, in no sense, and being in that uncertainty and just being in the pleasure of the moment. And, you know, I've done a bit of reading and spoken to a few people recently, and they they talk about that you create your own reality in the moment through the choice that you make, which is what I'm hearing that you're saying. But you can change anything. So you're, you're, I guess you can create your own reality and you can create the conversations. You take aligned action. So you reached out to 6,000 people on LinkedIn, you made 100, you know, coffee dates, and you had 5 job offers without the intention of that. It was like, yes, at the end I'm going to need a job, but what do I really want to do in the moment? And so you made that intentional choice, but you took action on it. It's not like The Secret and, you know, the law of attraction is just going to turn up. So there is this, um, I guess there is this beautiful duality there of freedom and innocence and, and just going with the choice of in the moment, the present, but there's also this structure around being aware, being orientated to the end result, understanding that your choices could become decisions if you let the thoughts and feelings and background come in. Is that kind of like when you talk in your book about the chaos and the uncertainty, is that kind of this struggle?

Yeah, there is definitely a struggle. At the end of the day, we live in a world where there are demands on us. Like you need to pay rent, you need to, we can't kind of discard that. And that's why I kind of don't like the idea that people blame me. Like this is a life without blame because that's the other thing is like, you know, oh, if your life sucks, it's your fault. And I don't believe, I don't buy into that at all. You know, we all have, I lived a life where I had ups and downs. I would have a day where, you know, like, what is it, 2022, we raised $4 million. It was like the largest amount in my life that I was able to raise. And I've never raised as much before. And here I am, and I've taught other entrepreneurs to raise hundreds of millions of dollars and I've supported them. So here I am, raised $4 million. And in in a few months, the whole market collapses. 2022, I don't know if you remember, but all of these FTX happened and then Silicon Valley Bank and like the whole market collapsed under our feet. So when you actually are in the moment, you realize that this is not, not everything is your fault and you're not in control of like anything. One of the things I say in my book is that you will get to realization that you control shit. In this world. And once you let go—

It's like the ocean, right? You're trying to control the ocean.

Yeah, exactly. So the hubris is that you control, like if I do something, the world will change for me. No, the world doesn't care. Nobody gives a shit, you know, and nothing's gonna change by thinking about it. All you can do is make choices with what's available for you. And once you start doing that, you start seeing what's available to you and you start making choices. I mean, I was coming to Vancouver. And I had my money was running out. I was applying, I was following the, you know, the whole process of settlement. I did 200 job applications, got one lousy interview and I had the experience I had. So I can understand. I mean, there are people who are just graduating who are not finding a job. I had 20 years of experience. I'm not finding a job. So, and it's not like I came without success. I could, put that success in the hands of anybody who would hire me and it wouldn't work out. So I could either cry about this, I could blame whatever it is, and I'd be probably right. Yeah, obviously, if I'm someone who's coming to Canada as a skilled worker, they should hire me and they should benefit from my value. And I could be stuck in that way of thinking, or I can say, what is available for me right now? What is the thing that I can do the most and the most skilled about? What is the choice that is the most powerful choice available to me? And the choice that was okay, I can just go meet people. That's an easy enough choice. It doesn't require money. It doesn't require, you know, it requires— I can ride on the buses. And that's what I did. And by working with the choices available to me, life progressed. I don't mean that that means life became better. I still, by the way, after the 3 months, The job that I accepted was the job where the CEO told me I'll be competing with his brother who has a branding company and I have one month. He paid for me to work for that month. He said at the end of the month, if you win over the person who has a branding company and who's my brother, then I'll hire you. I said, of course, I'm gonna win. So I give it my all and but there's no guarantee. And even before that, I remember sitting, one of the biggest breakthroughs, I was sitting in this seminar that WorkBC does where they teach you about how to network and how to do your resume. And they were talking about social media. And in that session, every time she says something, I would contribute, I would add this like, oh yeah, because I had a social media company. And she said, you should teach this class. And that was a moment where again, opportunity. After we finished, I went out like, you said I should teach this class. Is there a possibility I can teach this class? She said, yeah, send me an outline and I'll suggest it. So I went home on the day, chose to write an outline, send it to her. And a week after that or something, they gathered the community. It's a free session I gave and I had no zero expectation. I didn't know where it's gonna go. After I gave that session, the group, and I have to commend them for this, the employees that worked at that place gathered together, lobbied the management and said, you should get Hussein a contract to teach us how to teach social media.

Hello, just a quick message. I hope you're enjoying this podcast bonus session. Now, if you have heard this interview, then you're probably sitting in there going, what is this all about? Well, this is all about my Exit the Matrix experiment. Now, I decided to write a book because I'm really interested in how do we go from the existence that we have now to exiting the matrix and living with intention from our hearts, following our heart's desires, but also creating abundance in all areas of our lives. And hence, whilst I've been researching this book, I thought, this is a really solitary journey. I want people to come on this journey with me, and hence I've got this very special group. Now come and join me. The first month for founders is free, and if you decide to stay, fantastic. So what I'm doing is I'm interviewing incredible people. I'm getting insights about what's this awakening that people are getting, you know, what is the exit the matrix kind of sliding door moment for them. Now I've obviously run this podcast for over a year now, and I have more than 30 stories but I'm also interested in those people who are in this transformational space who are actually not just awakening themselves and they're awakening others. What is the mechanism? As Bashar talks about it, it's the permission slip. Are they going through astrology or meditation or yoga or breathwork? Are they just going within and getting a sense of what's really going on? So that's what all the Exit the Matrix experience is about. I'm going to let you get back to the interview, but if you want to join me, go to exitthematrix.today. /etmwithme, which stands for Exit the Matrix with Me. So that's exitthematrix.today/etmwithme. Sign up. I'd love for you to come along. I'm creating courses. There's currently courses in there around 4D gratitude. There's more courses to come. I'm creating custom GPTs on how you can exit the matrix and helping you uncover what lies beneath your subconscious and holding you back, and also other custom GPTs that I'm sure you're going to love. And most of the speakers are actually really motivating me. So I'm creating courses, I'm creating ebooks, I'm creating experiments you can try, I'm creating tools that you can use, and I'm also writing a book. So at some stage I'll get to writing the book. At this moment, it's just all about the research, and I hope you choose to join me because I'm really excited about this experiment. So I'll get back to the interview now. Enjoy yourself. And as always, here's to your success.

I was like, so I never expected. And that was the first contract I got in Canada from giving and from, you know, from making a choice because I could have easily said, wrote it off and say, no, I have to focus on getting a job. So that's what I mean is that you can make a choice and maybe nothing would have come out of it. But these are the choices. You look at the choices available to you, you make those choices. And if you don't like them, you make another choice and another choice and another choice. You just play the game. And that's what I like to teach people. It's like, play the game. You have nothing to lose because I have a chapter in my book that says, then you die. And it's the shortest chapter. I was like, whatever you do, then you're gonna die. We live, we have this estimation that life's gonna continue. Yeah, but we never know. Yeah. And so why, why, why worry? Why carry all of life with you and like move this slowly? Just, you know, make a choice and if you don't like it, make another choice.

Far out. I, I feel like you're, you're speaking on a frequency that's resonating with my heart here because everything that you, you're saying there, there is an undercurrent of audacity and belief in yourself, right? Like, uh, someone says you should write a, uh, you know, you should give a course. And there's opportunities like that that people get given every single day. The universe, I believe, is, is working in our favor, and, and we just have to be aware that these opportunities are there. But you were given an opportunity, you acted on it, you're audacious in, you know, going straight away and making the application and doing something. And once again, from giving, the people around you have, you know, you got 5 job offers, you've now got this contract. There is an element there of this having a crack or this audaciousness. Is that something that you feel that is part of this life mastery?

Yeah, I think one of the— if there is other thing, I mean, you've touched on something that's really important, which is Number one, I don't give a shit what people think about me. That's extremely important. Now, listen, I'm a human being. I love people to like me. But I think one of the ways I master it is, or I turn it around, is that we care a lot about everyone. And for some reason, the people that matter the most, we like, we care less. It doesn't matter. I don't understand it. Like we care about our standing in the world. And then we ignored the people that matter most. For me, I was very, very lucky. Probably one of the luckiest things is I actually got to marry the woman of my dreams. And I mean this in the literal sense. Like I always tell my wife, I say, listen, I actually dream about you. Like I wake up from a dream and you were in the dream and then I find you next to me. So I've got— life has given me the biggest gift that I've ever can give. So what else do I want out of life? Like, you know, like, yeah, I want the comfortable living and I want some things, but honestly, I got the thing that everybody's after. Why would I want anything else? And if we open our eyes, I think life can give us these moments of happiness. And if we take that in and then go after more, you know, go after more understanding that we will fall our way to success, we will probably fail far more and be in pain far more than success. If you look at anything meaningful, anything, if you look at any, because I love to study success and see people, people struggle all the way for a moment of happiness and success. I mean, look at these athletes, they train, they train, they train. I mean, the Olympians, they trained like for 4 years and then like for that moment of a medal and then it's fleeting. I was like, so there must be something more there. And there must be something for you, not for others, because others don't see it. I mean, if somebody tells me, like, if somebody tells me go to the gym, I was like, no, you're not gonna have, it's not gonna happen. But tell me to write for 5, 10 hours, that's my joy. For them, it's their joy to be at the gym. So everyone's joy is different and it comes from the choice to actually spend your life doing that joy. And then you figure out everything else. Like, I love writing, so I find I find ways to write and then I figure out how to make money from it or how it makes sense for the world. But first, I start with what brings me joy for me. And that's how, that's what I learned from choosing the woman I love is that, you know, my parents were against, her parents were against that, the whole, because she was from a different sect, not that I'm religious, but that's how it was. And we couldn't get married. But I fought for that because that's what mattered to me. And if we fight for the things that matter for us, and that's what I got coming back to my uncle, he fought for what he believed and for what mattered to him. So once we anchor ourselves with what matters most, Brian Tracy says there's never enough time to do everything, but there's always enough time to do the most important things. And that stays with me because Well, it's not just about time management. It's that what is it that matters to you? And we don't spend enough time asking ourselves that question. We live our life based on other people's rules. We like to have the things that show our value to others, not to ourselves. Yeah, I don't care if anybody knows how much money I have or not have, what's my status. I don't care. I wake up every day. Proud or happy of myself, of what I accomplished for myself, even if nobody sees it. And I think that is also another secret of Life Mastery is that whatever you have around you or whatever life you're living matters to you, even if nobody knows about it, even if nobody sees it. That's what matters.

It's funny. It's kind of like how you act when no one's looking.

Isn't it?

To get through uni, I came from a country family farming. My dad was a farm manager. And, you know, I remember sitting on the floor, we were writing 120 applications for scholarships to get to university. And I wanted to do kind of marketing and PR. And I got this scholarship for mining engineering because they wanted more girls in the '80s into engineering. And I was like, okay, I'm going to university to learn how to learn, and then I'm going to have the career that I want. And the interesting thing there was that I, I guess I took that opportunity that I was given, and it allowed me to experience something that I wouldn't have previously been able to experience. But I didn't— and I, you know, put time and effort into it. But one of the things that actually at that time really affected me was I was at an all-girls school and one of the fathers said, "Engineering? But girls can't be engineers." I'm like, "God damn it, I'm gonna do it." And then I look back now and I'm wondering, did I spend 15 years as an engineer to prove a man that I don't even know that he was wrong? You know, 'cause I think sometimes we have this kind of, you know, I'm gonna prove someone wrong or I'm gonna hold this grudge or revenge against someone and they don't even know. Like, you know, we have this kind of, whole thing. But coming back to that, uh, your wife and your love, and I'm, you know, like you, very fortunate to have my absolute honest soulmate in my life the last 26 years. And there is, statistically, you look at the, the stats, they, they talk about successful people, they have a partner who believes in them and they believe in each other. There's a mutual respect, like, that's That's kind of like one of the, how do you become successful? Have a life partner that, you know, you have this deep love for and who loves you and appreciates you. And your discussion there about fleeting moments of happiness. And I'm, you know, writing a book about abundance, how to bring this into your life on an ongoing basis. It's not the fleeting moments of validation or, you know, you're on the COVID of a magazine or, whatever that is, it is the next stage of that embodiment. And I heard you mention the word joy a few times. Is that what that is to you? I mean, you've mastered life.

Definitely, yeah.

Is this a life of joy? Is this the end goal?

100%. 100%. That's probably the word. It wasn't, by the way, it wasn't clear to me. And that's the other thing. I think one of the things that was the most surprising and the reason I wrote the book is that things were not as clear to me. We kind of blame ourselves for why aren't things, you know, clear? Why haven't we started life and have figured out life? And like you said, I like what you said. It took me until I think 2006 or '08, I think. And the worst time I lost one of my second tech startup, I lost like a million dollars. A million dollars in that part of the world is like losing $50 million. And I lost almost everything. And the other thing is that I looked back at that time and I realized that everything I was doing was to prove myself to others. And by doing that, I risked the most important things in my life, you know, by that time, by the way, I had the biggest kind of profile. I was on the back cover, the inside cover of Forbes. I was featured everywhere. I was gonna like change the face of the art scene in the Arab world. I'm the first one who put 1,200 Middle Eastern artists online. There was nobody online and I put them online at that time. So it was like massive media success. But I was not happy. I was not joyful. It was one of the worst times of my life, the most stressful times of my life. And it took until, I think, 2008 when I actually accepted that I'm enough and I don't need any other things. And it's enough to live life at my terms. And I say my terms doesn't mean like, you know, I have all the money all the time. It's like It's discovery rather than ownership. It's not what I have. It's what I want to discover. It's because life really is not about, you know, having stuff because the moment, the moment you have something, once you first get it, it's like you're super excited. But after you have it, like, yeah, whatever, you know, I can't, yeah, exactly. Whatever it is you got, but there are things that that are constant, like having my wife in my life is a constant source of joy. Having my kids is a constant, friends, people to talk to that you have great conversations with. So once you realize the things that, and I'm not saying that's for everyone, maybe for you, you know, having a Ferrari car, whatever, you know, great, good for you. But once you realize what are the things that give you joy, not the things that position you for others as someone who has joy or someone who's successful. Once you realize that and you go after it, that is a life of success because all you're doing is that cycle of like you realize what you enjoy and you go after it and then you realize something more and you after it and you're constantly discovering like, oh, I didn't know I enjoyed this. I didn't know I loved that. And it's so exciting because you don't know what the next thing is gonna come. Like right now, this amazing conversation, I don't know what's the next thing. So by, which is what I realized, knowing more people and reaching out to more people is a constant source of joy.

Yeah.

So, so that is, that is kind of also part of my journey and kind of part of my discovery.

Well, you, you also talk about this concept of, I guess, fear, fear being, yeah, definitely. And I, I explored this with a coach, one of my mentors, last week, because I was saying I'm, I'm quite worried about, you know, launching this thing. And he said, tell me what could be the worst thing to go wrong. And I was like, oh, you know, there could be tech challenges, there could be all of this. He's like, no, tell me more, more, more. And I got to the point where I was like, what if people think I'm a fraud? You know, what if, you know, I kind of, I turn up I'm thinking that I'm this good person, but what if it doesn't gel with someone or they call me out and they're going, this is crap, you know? And I'm like, I'm a fraud. And he said, so what's the worst thing that could happen if someone says you're a fraud? I'm like, well, if I don't believe it, like nothing, it's just someone else's opinion. And so the biggest fear that I had, which was, oh my God, I'm a fraud. And he's like, just say I'm a fraud. I'm like, I'm a fraud, I'm a fraud. Fraud. Like, you know, let me call myself a fraud before others do. And there's this thing about imposter syndrome as well. So this fraud imposter syndrome thing that people, I think, struggle with. There's these fears that can hold us back, right? How do you navigate that?

Very good question. I think there are two things here. Number one, funny enough, that the people who are actually frauds, They're the people who are the most bombastic and like they kind of appear to be fearless, but they're actually, if you think about them, they are the weakest because all they want is somebody else's adulation. All they want is to get something from someone else. I think the idea of fear is first understanding where fear comes from and fear comes from our natural instinct to survive. So fear is not bad. It's a signal. And that's also one of the things I've learned is that our emotions are signals. So I don't need to ignore them. I need to honor them. So when there's fear, I just go into it. It's like, what am I really afraid of? And so, well, I'm afraid of failure. I'm afraid of people, you know, figuring out something or whatever. And I go into that. It's like, okay, so how do I deal with that? Sometimes I deal with it by not caring about fear. It's like, yeah, I am fearful, but I'm still gonna do it. Or I am fearful, so I'm gonna actually do it in a way that reduces the risk. And we have that in startups where we understand when you're building a company, there's a lot of uncertainty and failure is almost always 90% rather than 10%, because that's how the nature is like, you know, trying to shoot a ball to the basket, you know, if you're playing basketball, And if your level of risk, you're just starting, you're most likely gonna miss it. But if you don't take the shot and take the next shot and take the next shot, you're never gonna get to a point where you're likely to hit it. So you have to do that. It's just part of the process. So first, you understand it's part of the process. And the second thing is you embrace fear as in like, okay, how do I de-risk it? So instead of throwing yourself, for example, saying Instead of lying and saying I'm a champion, let me throw myself in the championship. Let me do it in such a way where the risk is lower and the learning is higher. One of the things I did when I first learned about blockchain. So here I am sitting in Launch Academy, the incubator, and there was someone who wants to run a workshop. And as the GM, I attended the workshop and I was fascinated with blockchain. So in effort to learn it, so I spent time to learn it and in an effort to learn it, I learned this from Stephen Covey, the best way to learn is to teach. So I announced a workshop where I'll teach and I prepared as much. But let me tell you that first workshop was a shit show. I had people in the workshop, one is from the Ethereum Foundation. So basically the top people in the blockchain space. And the other person was a cryptographer. Halfway through the workshop, they took over answering the questions of the people answering, asking because I didn't know how to answer. But I've learned the most in that workshop. And guess what? The next workshop was better and the next. And in 6 months, I had the best workshop by everyone. And people were— and I was hired to teach in university and teach in other places. Because I was willing to take that chance. And that's the other thing. And I think that's what we don't teach in schools. I'm not taking things away from schools. I think it's important. Education is very important. But what we don't teach is that everything's taught about getting the highest marks and you spend the whole year prepared for it. But in real life, you don't, you know, if you want to play football or something, you don't read about it and then you play it. You go in and you shoot a few balls and you say, Oh, I like this. I want more. And then you start learning and start practicing. And that is, that's an approach to things in life. If you want to do a doctor, obviously go study for 6 years before touching any patient for sure. So engineer, you know, like there are things the risk is extremely high and there's established practice that you need to learn. You want to fly a plane, definitely.

It's like success leaves clues, right? Why not learn from a structure that's already worked?

Exactly. But in life, like most things in life are about, you know, trial and error about, you know, and there is no pathway that, and we spend a lot of time trying to learn the pathway. And when we realize that the person on screen, the only reason we're listening to them is because they got a Ferrari and all they did is because they bet on something and they were lucky. I mean, we start seeing through the BS. And I think if we take a chance on ourselves and just play and see how it turns out and de-risk the process so that there's another, there's a little bit of loss, but not that much. I think if we start doing that, that's how I look at fear. And that's how I teach and work with people to kind of navigate their way around fear.

Because I guess the thing is, is our our caveman mind is here to keep us safe. And so fear is something healthy that, as you said, we have to honor it and listen to it. And as an explosives engineer, like risk assessment was my go-to and still is, as you know, having taught about 10,000 people property investing, it's like, how do we de-risk this? But the thing about what you mentioned there in that first blockchain talk that you gave, Is there an element also of positive expectation? Do you bring in the, I can do this, I've learned enough? Like, I definitely have a learn, teach— no, learn, apply, teach, succeed, learn, apply. Like, for me, the teaching part, like what you say, is so important because— and a lot of the time it's just-in-time learning. Like, I'm like, oh, I have to do something just in time. This is fantastic. I'll tell people about it, right? Or I'll teach it. But I have this almost predisposition of it's right. Like, of course I can do this. Like, you know, there's a positive expectation that I'm sharing something that will be of value. Is that a component of acknowledgement of fear and going for it anyhow?

Yeah. The way I say it to myself usually is I know I will do everything in my power to, and I will give it my all, and I will be relentless. I think it's more about how much effort I'm willing to give something as opposed to I knowing that I can do that. And I think that is why I don't buy into fake it till you make it because it doesn't really work. And in that case, I wasn't faking it. I actually sat down and prepared and did my very best. And even there, when I was there, first of all, it wasn't my first time teaching. And there's a difference between, let's say, having a room, let's say, filled with 20 people and you acknowledging, saying, listen, this is my first workshop and I've done this and this is what I've learned. And of course, you have something to offer as opposed to, you know, going to TED and saying, I'm this well-known, you know, Speaker, and here's my resume that I made up completely. That is lying and that is putting yourself up to kind of setting yourself up for a big failure. Now, so it's the difference between gambling and taking, I would say, calculated risks. Gambling, you may win, by the way, like you may win, but you're most likely gonna lose because it's gambling. You know, the house always wins. But when you actually take calculated risk, what you do is you lower the risk. It's similar. I mean, let's say property investment. You don't go, let's say you have $1 million. You don't go buy, you know, the biggest house and the best house, let's say $1 million without knowing anything about where to buy it, how to buy it, how to assess it, all of that. But he says like, you know what, maybe I start with $100,000. I join in others with who are more informed than me and I invest with them. Of course, I haven't invested in property, but let's say you lower the risk. You don't put all your money in, like all your eggs in one basket. So calculated risks and knowing which, what level are you willing to kind of, what level you're willing to lose and giving yourself multiple chances so that you don't take, you know, waste all of that and like Well, I took a bet. No. So these are the things where we, you become smart and that's why you learn and you make choices and you, and that calculated risk, I think it's very important to teach it in school. That idea of, you know, have an idea, don't be afraid to put it out there, reduce the risk level and try again and give yourself multiple tries again and again and again.

Which is kind of against the Silicon Valley fail fast theory, isn't it?

This one? No, no, it's actually with that. That's what they mean by fail fast, but fail smaller failures.

Yeah.

So you don't fail fast. The fail fast is kind of a shorthand, but Silicon Valley is made off of the idea of you come up with an idea and you do an MVP, minimal viable product, which is the smallest product. So if we look at it, the first—

So it is a minimal risk.

Yeah, exactly. So it's like a landing page rather than building an app that costs, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars. You build a landing page that costs $500 instead of putting $20,000 of advertising budget, you run $500 ad. So it gives you longer runway with the money that you have and then you learn from the data and then you enhance the idea and you try again and you learn from the data. If you look at a kid trying to walk, that's it. You take a step, you fall, you take another step, and until you learn how to walk, that is the way we learn.

Okay, let's go to AI. You talked about blockchain, you're currently heavy into it. Dark arts of life mastery, AI, is there an intersection? Is AI something that can assist us in our human quest of mastery?

100%. We live probably in the most amazing time that we can live in. And I'll tell you why. It's not because AI itself is awesome, which in many ways it is, but there are definitely challenges. But let's talk about it from the perspective of the person. Let's say me, the way I use AI, number one, I have a tool that have access to enormous amount of human knowledge compressed and available to me at the tip of my finger. And I can ask it to spar with me, to give me feedback, to challenge me, to call me out on certain things. This is incredible because before, if I wanted to do— now, what people are thinking are mixing, and I'll give that example. Let's say I'm interested in reading a book. I'm reading right now Manufacturing Consent by Noam Chomsky. Great book. So what people are thinking is like, oh, okay, so I don't have to read. I'll go to ChatGPT and ask it for a summary. No, I won't. Why? Because I'm enjoying reading the book. It's an experience. Again, joy. But what I can do with ChatGPT is there are some topics where I don't want to read the books, but I need the info. So I can ask ChatGPT is like, okay, what do I need to know about this? Because I need to get something done. And that's the difference. It's for practical reasons, ChatGPT or any kind of AI is magnificent for those kinds of things because it gives me, it gives me more time. It compresses the time where I need, let's say, to do certain things and give me more time for the things I want to enjoy. Plus it's like, it's fascinating where, you know, for play, like for playtime, even like I have this, I use it. One of the ways I use it is I in my writing is I open it and I start rambling on. I have an idea and say, I wanna talk about this idea. And I talk about it like for half an hour and I say, okay, now look at what I wrote. What are the key ideas? How do you structure this? What are the things that, you know, like I'm completely, you know, off the track on it. What works with what? Tell me what you find. And it's fascinating to have because that's something I can only have access to in conversations. That's why I love conversations because when you have a conversation, your ideas develop. And that's something we're missing right now. In the past, we didn't have social media, we didn't have computers, and we'd spend time, you know, with our friends talking, thinking. We spent time contemplating. Now I have this tool where I can throw something at it and say, you know, what did philosophers say about this? What are some things I sometimes ask it, what are some of the books I need to read if I want to dig deeper into this? And sometimes these are things that where like it's the space between what Google could give because Google is when I ask it a specific question or the place where I even don't know what I should think. And it's helpful in these areas. So where does it go? I don't know. But I think right now it's the idea that Throughout history, when we used to want to connect with what people said, let's say about love or what people talked about a certain idea, we would have to spend years researching something. Now it's minutes and I can say, tell me what was said about this topic or what did people, which angles did they tackle this idea or this challenge? And it's incredible. So The only reason, the only thing is we need to do it at a sustainable thing where it doesn't hurt the environment. We need to do it so that it is within the ethical bounds. So definitely we need the technology needs to be done or developed in a different way, but it is definitely a technology that empowers us to, I think, to discover and to find joy in different things. So that's how I look at it.

It's interesting you saying that because I read this beautiful blog by someone about basically Aristotle's way of thinking through problems and how investigating things and being curious. And it had a lovely structure to it. And, you know, and the Stoics and he brought in all of these things. And so I created a custom ChatGPT around that and organized a task so that every morning at 6 AM I get an email that says this is a thinking point for the day and an orientation point around how to be curious about something. And it chooses at random a topic. And it just gives me a sense of learning something straight off the bat. Like I'm then orientated for the day to look at different things or look at things differently or attract things into life. And it's funny, I used to go to conferences and training and I'd walk in the next day and my PA used to say, okay, I've got my notebook. What are we gonna be doing now? What's the latest thing? And I would go down paths of discovery. And I mean, I've been fortunate in having 3 companies and none of them failing, but you know, I have tested many different things and do things differently, like writing this book in this way. And, um, and she would always be like, ready? And I'd go down these— I've got whiteboards all over my office now with ideas, and it would take me weeks to assess them. And now I've set up this 150-person board of advisors, and I'll jump in and it will choose the top 10. And it might be Buffett, and it might be Machiavelli, and it might be Gandalf, and it It could be Archangel Michael, it could be Rumi, it could be Oprah, it could be Steve Jobs. They jump in and I, like, I've got this idea. And usually they, each kind of comes from a point of view of reference to it. And then I'll choose 3 and have them debate it. And I can have an idea explored in 10 minutes. And so that, what you're talking about there is that acceleration that AI gives. It gives me like the 2 weeks of ruminating and energy in my brain on something. And oh, I should get to this. I should research this. There should be books on this to, ah, okay, I can do a little bit more on this. So I love that. I love how you explain that because that's exactly how I, I see it. It's an elevation. There needs to be structure. There is no structure. I can't control other people putting structure around it. But I can use it for good. Um, and yeah, I, I, yeah, I really, I appreciate that. Okay, I've got a final question. I appreciate your time. You mentioned not being religious and your wife being of a different sect. Obviously there was religion and some type of spirituality in, in your youth. When you talk about the dark arts, which gives me this kind of like shadow secret society, like, you know, like come behind the curtains and see what's here. Is there a component of source energy, wisdom, God, whatever you want to call it, that comes into your— I guess your comment of you're complete, you know, you've mastered life. Is there an aspect of connection, divine, that is part of that?

I think whenever I look at it, I mean, I like to think I'm rational and I think through things, but only because that is needed when we want to kind of navigate life, if we wish. You need to be, a lot of times you need to adhere to logic, to science, Because they are not, you know, even what people say, but they are means to approach life. It's the same thing I would do when I'm helping somebody build a company. I give them the Business Model Canvas and I work with that because that right now, this is how business operates. These are the components of a business. You need to look at cost, you need to look at the value proposition, you need to look at customers. This is just how things work. So I'm very rational when it comes to how things work. And I look at 4 frameworks. I say I'm a frameworks guy because it's like if you want to play football, you need to know what are the boundaries of football, what are the rules of football because that's, you want to play football. So that is that I'm very rational with that. When it comes to feelings and when it comes to, you know, meaning and what gives joy in life, I am pretty open in the sense that, and that's why I think we have this balance is that I don't let one thing impact the other. So I don't bring rationality to joy. You know, I should be enjoying this because, you know, I don't know, I am with my wife.

Paid a lot of money for it.

Exactly. We try and I think that ruins it. There is some mysticism, something like I don't understand sometimes why I feel the way I feel. So, but I feel it. So do I really need to understand it? Do I really need like, why am I sad today? It's like, no, I'm, and sometimes I find that it helps when you're with your feeling rather than trying to understand it because it doesn't, you know, it's like going, somebody said something, it's like, it's you go into it to get out of it kind of thing. You know, and it's really hard to understand why you feel the way you feel. And that's why I don't put on that when you're, or I don't bring that into the work. So I have this rational part of me that works in areas where rationality helps. And I have this part of me that I still in discovery that feels and enjoys And, you know, like, why do I enjoy somebody's company? I don't know. And do I really need to understand? I just know I enjoy it. Let's— I want just more of it. So yeah, I leave. I think it's important to leave places in our lives where we don't really have to understand it and have to analyze it and have to force it. And I think if we start accepting that, we would probably have a far simpler, easier life. But that's just me. Yeah, I mean, for me with my wife, sorry, go ahead, go ahead, Jane Slack-Smith. Well, when I went to, all I knew is I enjoy being with my wife and I didn't care what she believes, what I believe, and where our families come from. I was like, you know, like, I enjoy being around you and I want to, I want that for the rest of our lives. Like, is that too hard to ask? And that's all I knew. So all of the other rationalities. Yeah. In fact, I use rationality to make things, other things work because I want that. I want more of that feeling. It's like kind of why do you like sushi or don't like sushi? It's like somebody, imagine somebody saying, well, rationally sushi is one of the top foods in the world and it's fish and it's good for you and you have to like it. Like that's stupid. You know, like honestly, that's a stupid argument. It's like, no, I like sushi because I like sushi, just like I like vanilla because I like vanilla. So I think that's how I look at it.

With all of the businesses and that rational, logical, there's a structure, we're not working on a premise here, we're working on concrete results and a known path to success. Does intuition ever come into it for you? Do you sit there and go, this person's pitching this thing to me, but it feels out of alignment for them, or it doesn't feel right? Like, do you ever get that type of sense?

100%. Yeah, I think, well, at a certain point, I always honor my sense of things. I always say I have to work the way I analyze it. It's 3 rules that I live by or 3 principles. Number 1, I only work with people that I like because life is too short to work with people you don't like. So for me, I relate it to likeness. So if I like someone, the other thing is that we have to have a shared vision of the world. Doesn't have to be the same vision, but the vision of the world that kind of we share. And the last thing is we want to leave a legacy. That's what I came up with. The combination of those things make me feel good about something. And if I don't, I don't argue it. I don't feel good about it. And that's more than enough for me. And I think the, this desire to make everything work and to make everything super efficient and super effective, I think kills the joy in life.

Yeah.

So that is, that is kind of what I care. And I, and I, and there is a space between them that I haven't yet figured out and I'm okay with not figuring it out.

Yeah. You're okay with chaos and uncertainty. I love that. And now we've got the 3 principles. So we've finally hacked into Hassane Halek's 3 principles that guide his life and have led you obviously to a life of mastery. And I really appreciate your time today. I'm gonna drop the link to the, the DART Art of Life Mastery. And for someone to say, I've mastered life, like, you know, with the certainty that you have, but still the unknowingness and curiosity of what is to come is just Perfect. I love that. So thank you so much for your time. You've given me so many things that have landed for me and, and challenged me on how we can, you know, use awareness. We can be the captain of our ship and still be in the present moment of right now and look to where the destination is without having the map to it, and going to the choices and being aware of the thoughts thoughts and feelings and all of those things, but also, you know, having a crack, like, you know, accepting it could be a shit show the first time and learning from it. And, you know, being surrounded by people and that whole networking is of what you've done is just inspiring. And what we didn't look at there is you were okay with people saying no, like you're reaching out to all these people and you're okay with the no. Self-referential kind of, this is what gives me joy and the right people are going to turn up. I'm going to have great conversations just for the joy of that. And boy, I've got some job offers too. Like, you know, that, that's truly inspiring. And I think that really kind of brings me to the completion of my messy middle part because it can be dark, but geez, the joy and the light that comes out of it, what a gift. So thank you so much for your time.

Thank you, Jane. Such a perfect way to end it. It's been a joy to talk to you. Great questions and great energy as well. I loved it. Thank you.

Thank you. And as always to everyone, here's to your success. Bye for now.

For listening to Exit the Matrix Stories of Success. Make sure you subscribe to future episodes at www.exitthematrix.io. Until next time, here's to your success.